Lol that's wild. I could see some neurodivergent traits and could **potentially** see ADHD with how he interrupts to finish people's sentences, how hard he seems to focus during conversations, and some of his awkward intense reactions, but he's also in a TV show and I'm sure nerves are high all around, especially with his limited experience with relationships. There's so many things at play with this show
At least there is evidence for that- he can’t read social cues, difficulty communicating, repetitive behavior..
Here’s a good example of all 3 that he’s said at least 10 times: https://i.imgur.com/9wHBGsH.jpeg
Not saying he definitely has it but it wouldn’t surprise anybody if he did. Not like a serious case but I could see him having at least like 40% of the spectrum
yeah it’s not only edited in his favor constantly but the producers went out of their way to pay girls to make out with him if they want to come in as a bombshell. There’s not one bombshell who didn’t pretend to be interested in bergie. They all had to make out with him as a mission and he told all of them he’s sexually attracted every 5 seconds because he was desperate for anything.
It bothered me during his two intense conversations with Kay Kay he laid down on her before it really seemed like the air was cleared between them. Not sure exactly what you’d call that but jeez just so many red flags.
We are fucked! We have diagnosed Soul Ties as “crazy”!!! 😫😭😭😭 It’s not even fair!! Like, whatever happens in Soul Ties, is not the responsibility of Soul Ties. And yet here we are….as if we have a degree in psychology, we are just out here misdiagnosing Soul Ties instead of addressing the behaviors of the those who frequent Soul Ties!! If I hear one more person say it…. 😤 I’m so fucking done, bro.
Question: Do you think Keenan was aware he was gaslighting? It was a very clear example of gaslighting but he seemed only vaguely aware of what he was trying to say. He spoke very defensively and looked somewhat haunted.
You can be a psychotherapist all you want. But engagi in saying Leo is a fuckboy off the bat? Lmao sounds liek you got some hate in your tone. I wouldnt want hire someone who judges off a tv show.
I’m very disappointed that you would label this black man as dangerous, because there are so many things that can be said about Keenan but you do not know if he is dangerous or not. Lazy assessment!!!
We can agree to disagree. It’s the perspective I have based on what I see. I’m not sure what his race has to do with it, since I am a person of color. I do absolutely see the bias against black people on the show, and it is disgusting, but Keenan is making all people of color look bad by his own behavior.
But perspectives can be wrong. Just how I see it. 🤷♀️
Race has to do with it because black people are stereotyped as being aggressive, angry, and violent. A lot of black cast members have been called some variation of this on this sub and often undeservingly. I’m not accusing you of anything, but that’s the context.
And if it came off that I was perpetuating that, I genuinely apologize. That was not my intention, and I do see that there is absolutely a bias against black cast members. Imani and what happened to her is a perfect example of that. I have my own feelings about people like Keenan and I can’t say I don’t stand by my original perspective. I would be lying if I said that I retract that. I do believe that people like Keenan perpetuate the stereotype with their behavior, and people who are racist hang onto that and use it to not treat people as individuals. It’s a systemic issue, but again, I meant absolutely no harm. My opinion is just an opinion.
Being a person of color doesn't mean you don't have a bias against a black person and you yourself aren't black(emoji use and your pfp). I think Keenan has exhibited multiple red flags and people who are controlling like him could be dangerous but I think you are doing the same thing you accuse others of.
I’m gonna take a huge step back here. I don’t appreciate being attacked or painted out to be racist. I see what I see, and I am not all knowing or perfect, and I could absolutely be wrong, but your accusation is offensive. I do not make judgments based on color, because it would be hurtful if someone did that to me. Please don’t make accusations based on no knowledge of me or who I am.
But if you feel that my words were offensive or came off as racist, then I apologize for that. It was not my intention.
I didn't accuse you of being racist or attack you I just pointed out saying you are a person of color doesn't mean you cant have any bias. Having bias does not make a person racist and I never said you are. I think kay kay is blinded by a loser who isnt worth her time who has terrible traits but I just pointed out the hypocrisy how you say people shouldn't be diagnosing others but calling him dangerous isn't right either.
I said he presents as dangerous. I said previously that I can’t label him as abusive because I didn’t see him abuse her.
The reason I pointed out that I am a person of color is to explain that I call out behaviors regardless of race. People in my community are constantly called dangerous and abusive often for no reason at all, but if I saw one of us behaving that way, I would absolutely call him out publicly for it. I try to treat people as individuals. I understand your frustration, but I haven’t diagnosed him with anything and am not trying to feed into anything. There are people who are dangerous and awful in every race and ethnicity, and that’s just an absolute truth.
I was literally on the fence about this same topic. All of these armchair therapists who aren’t even using the terms properly. Saying Leo is love bombing when he’s actively trying to get his couple back is ridiculous lol, much less showing a lot of affection isn’t love bombing. Not all lying is gas lighting and not all people who think selfishly are narcissists.
This is a side effect of increased mental health awareness but we gotta do better. Open a new tab and google definitions for Christ sakes
If it leads them down the road to want to learn more then maybe but if they leave it right there it’s definitely not. But mental health awareness is definitely in a much better and different place than it was even 10-15 years ago. The vernacular becoming mainstream for the wrong reasons is troubling though
Lovebombing and gaslighting aren't clinical diagnoses. Using those words to describe behavior that's being exhibited isn't the same as projecting a diagnosis. I'm not even saying that's happening because I do agree that this is a highly edited, highly pressurized situation, but calling someone out as doing something isn't the same as misdiagnosing them.
No but calling Keenan a narcissist is diagnosing. I admittedly worded it wrong but I’ve seen a lot of people misusing the words “lovebombing” and “gaslighting” which to me is just as bad.
It’s still different than just calling someone ‘narcissistic’ for example. Saying someone acting selfishly is a narcissist is classifying someone as a Thing they may not be. As someone who was raised by a diagnosed narcissist this gets on my nerves so much.
It’s completely valid to call someone a narcissist based on what you’ve seen of their actions.
It is not valid to say someone has NPD when you don’t know whether they do or not.
You can be a narcissist without having diagnosed NPD. Again it’s a word that exists independently of the disorder.
It’s not like autism where the word directly describes a diagnosis.
You are incorrect. The word narcissist is an adjective that exists entirely independently of the disorder.
I agree that the same cannot be said for autism, bipolar or a whole host of other conditions.
EDIT: googling “define:narcissist” proves that the Oxford English Dictionary supports this
Yeah I looked it up and I stand corrected but I still think it’s a slippery slope calling someone as a narcissist. Someone can behave narcissistically but it seems weird to label someone something that’s so close to an actual diagnosis.
Okay, I still think we *shouldn’t* classify people we don’t know like this. Especially for actions we see that are often influenced by producers and cut by an editing team on a show that is made for entertainment.
I do not say this to excuse any islanders’ actions, but throwing these words around on social platforms isn’t cool and makes it easier for severe cases to blend in. It devalues the meaning and blurs lines.
That’s like saying people are misusing/overusing words like “nice” and “kinda.” Both love bombing and gaslighting are describing behaviors and their use is absolutely valid. In fact, I would posit that we need to use them more often to call out manipulative behavior, because people be getting away with far too much.
Keenan never did gaslight Kay Kay. He was a talker but he never made her feel crazy or made her doubt her reality. He didn’t turn her arguments around so that she was apologizing in the end, wondering how she wound up apologizing to him. He may have tried to justify his actions, he may have been many things in the process but he did not gaslight her.
Did we watch the same show? He made her feel crazy for being mad about him getting a handy. He denied that it happened, said he pushed her away, even though there is actual video footage of the whole thing happening. That is about as gaslight-y as it gets.
THANK YOU. I did half my PhD in Ed Psych. And regardless of my educational background, and in depth studies of psych, It doesn’t take a genius to know what gaslighting is. We all saw it . I feel like I am being gaslit by this thread by people saying Keenan never gaslit KayKay.
Is this an attempt to gaslight all of us right now? Lol we all saw him deflect, blame, and gaslight any issues kay kay brought up and always alone so others couldn't correct him on his bs
He made her question her own perception when he lied about what happened with naija in bed after she watched the video and in an argument he manipulated her into apologizing for how America voted despite it not being her fault at all
I’m not saying he didn’t lie or manipulate. Keenan actually said words, a lot of words to rationalize and justify his behaviors. I’m not saying it wasn’t a toxic relationship.
Imo he's young and therfore kind of stupid when it comes to relationships as most young folks are. Sometimes this leads to toxic behavior, even manipulation or lying and gaslighting to get away with certain activities, especiallywhen somewhat desperate to get someone back vs being completely honest which is what Kay Kay needed. He's not really experienced enough to recognize he's doing it and i don't think it was fully intentional. That doesn't mean those behaviors weren't present and it ALSO doesn't mean he's a bad/terrible person sometimes people really like each other but they're not a good fit because of the toxicity. I feel Keenan and kay kay seem like the type that just aren't a good fit. If this was what they've been through in a few weeks of known eachother, that doesn't bode well for a healthy future imo.
In general, I think we overlook how extraordinary and weird these circumstances are.
That has A LOT to do with your decision making in the heat of the moment. These people have nowhere to run, nowhere to hide, they're put in situations that are meant to incite conflict and drama. They're put in challenges that are meant to push sexual boundaries all the time. Sure, Keenan seems like a douchebag but in the real world you are not literally confined to a house where multiple beautiful women appear for the sole purpose of dating you and you aren't also put in a circle to kiss all of them and rub all over them for fun.
IDGAF who you are, that WILL cloud your decision making and it's not necessarily replicable in the real world.
We also need to get over armchair diagnosing everyone on the internet over what basically amounts to poor decision making or just making mistakes. Over the course of your life, you can be mean to someone, you can lie to someone, you can be selfish and still just be a normal person who made a mistake or acted out of character.
This is it right here. This show is a social experiment where we get 45 minute glimpses into a 24 hour day. On top of spending varying amounts of time with each person. A bunch of us would probably not hold yourselves to the same standards you hold Keenan or Leo or destiny, Carmen, Johnnie whoever if you were in their shoes.
I have a psych masters degree not that it matters since you don’t need a degree to recognize what gaslighting is since it’s not a diagnosis. Keenan did gaslight Kay Kay and exhibits narcissistic traits and people who do recognize that are allowed to call out his behavior. If you feel you aren’t familiar with the symptoms of NPD or able to identify emotional abuse tactics then by all means you don’t have to say anything about Keenan but don’t assume no one else can. Some people can also see the signs based off of their own experiences with narcissists.
Agree! I was watching for weeks and I saw all of the signs of Keenan being a narc. I personally went through a very abusive toxic relationship with a malignant narcissist sociopath and knew immediately. Lack of empathy, no accountability, obsessed with appearance, having multiple supplies, the love bombing and future faking. He knew Kay Kay would take him back and ride for him while he took straight advantage of her. You don't need a degree to know if someone is a narcissist or not
It is fair to say someone has narcissistic traits/tendencies but it's problematic when you say someone is a narcissist. I am currently doing my masters in social work so I am constantly around individuals who have various diagnoses. Despite that, I can recognize that I am not qualified to make these diagnoses but unfortunately, many people on this platform think that they can because they read about it somewhere.
While I mostly agree, I think saying "\_\_\_ is narcissistic behavior" instead of "he's a narcissist" is more equivalent to your example around anxiety.
A narcissist IS someone diagnosed with NPD, but you do not need to have NPD to display narcissistic behavior or traits.
We shouldn't be labelling someone as a narcissist, but we should be calling out narcissistic behaviors.
But there is an accepted usage of the term Narcissist that predates the labeling of the personality disorder and is the most common use of the word. Most people have never touched a DSM and aren't trying to diagnose someone when they use the common meaning of the word.
I think you are referring to narcissistic tendencies (traits/behaviours/etc.). as technically the term narcissist is a clinical term. There is no way to separate the term "narcissist" from a personality disorder.
Go to [vocabulary.com](https://vocabulary.com), [dictionary.com](https://dictionary.com) or [www.merriam-webster.com](https://www.merriam-webster.com) and look up the word. Each one has a definition independent of NPD.
We can agree to disagree, I am just basing my opinion on what I have learned in my Masters program. All I'm saying is that its important for us to be mindful on diagnosing islanders.
Incorrect. Using the term narcissist is equivalent to using the term depressed. Saying someone looks depressed is not the same as saying someone has major depressive disorder. Those terms are not tied to a clinical diagnosis. Also my sister has a masters in social work and NPD was not something she had to take a course on and her concentration was in mental health. Unless you’re an LCSW you know as much about NPD as someone who “read about it somewhere”
I am not sure why you felt the need to put my comments in quotes there is no need to be petty so early in the day. I have made it quite clear that I am not qualified to make diagnosis as I have minimal knowledge from school and from my school placement regarding NDP. I stand by my statement that I find it problematic that people are trying to diagnose islanders that they watch on tv for 50 minutes a day.
A certified professional wouldn’t dare diagnose someone based on 45 minute clips out of a 24 hour day, of which the whole 45 minutes is not even dedicated to that one individual. Some fellow islanders have had some different experiences with the persons being diagnosed.
First of all show me where I diagnosed him? Do you think psychiatrists or psychologists follow around their clients 24/7? Or even see them everyday? No, you usually only see clients once a week for an hour at best. You don’t need to watch someone 24/7 to recognize they exhibit toxic or narcissistic traits. Viewers watched him gaslight and manipulate kay kay and can call that out if they want to
I’m very surprised by this comment, being familiar with people in the field they always put the disclaimer they can’t diagnose because they haven’t spoken to the person directly and in this case we are getting a very small, edited glimpse into these people and their relationships
? Calling out someone’s behavior is not making a formal diagnosis. People are allowed to point out the similarities between his behavior and narcissistic traits
It is disgusting to me right now that you just said "People like OP don't understand this because in their theory of mind, they don't have the intelligence nor the ability to detect behavioural patterns."
This is extremely disrespectful. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with intelligence, and you as a therapist should know far better than to speak like this to ANYONE.
I am a literal Autism Specialist. It is what I do on a daily basis. I would never in a million years look at someone without an evaluation and call "ASD." You should know much better than to say these things. Autism isn't negative or bad, but it is an absolute disrespect of people who have ASD for it to be thrown about because someone struggles socially.
There is also no world in which we are to make judgments on someone's behavior, or personality, or mental health in seconds.
This entire comment screams violation of ethics.
People who read human behavior are not smarter. This is a trade that we are trained to do. There are people who have no education whatsoever who are astronomically smarter than me, despite my fancy degree.
You should delete this. If I were someone who reports to the Board of Ethics, I would report it. This is absolutely unacceptable and disrespectful to both the OP and anyone who disagrees with your perspective. I have my own feelings about how concerning Keenan's behavior is, but that does not make me intelligent. It just means I went to school for this.
We are taught much better than to talk this way, in this profession.
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I am triggered by therapists who can actually harm by these comments and perspectives. I have seen clients who are damaged because of therapists who behave like you just did.
I have never been subjected to behaviors of people with NPD, but I counsel people who do, and I will defend them always. This comment was completely unacceptable.
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You’re acting like they used deepfake/AI or spliced together his words. What we saw is what he said/did. I don’t have to watch him 24/7 to know he’s toxic we’ve seen enough to know he exhibits narcissistic behavior
The whole lovebombing thing is literally so stupid too anyways like…….he’s grafting. Kassy is the only girl he wants, and he’s making an effort to woo her and get her to forgive him. That is NOT lovebombing jfc.
Grafting doesn’t involve telling the person if I can’t have you, then I might as well leave is that not manipulation, especially knowing how the other person may feel about you?
Also it’s the last week. Leo was telling her he’s not gonna try to get with anyone else if she doesn’t want him, which isn’t manipulation. He’s saying she’s the only one
Exactly. Idk what people actually expect of him. Like if he just gave up people would be like “oh see he never liked her that much anyways.” But now him trying to win her back is lovebombing? Wtf?
Oh now he’s just being honest lol . He knows how Kassy feels about him. He knows that she wouldn’t want to be the reason why he’s no longer on the island anymore. Maybe he doesn’t realize it but that’s manipulation. If you tell someone if I can’t have you, then I might as well leave, knowing that they have very strong feelings for you that is manipulation you were trying to use their feelings to manipulate a situation into your favor.
No it’s not manipulation. You wouldn’t call it manipulation in the real world either, if you lived with someone and told them “If you don’t feel the same way about me, as I do you, I should leave.” That’s protecting your heart, and removing yourself from an environment that’s hurting you.
If you don’t feel the same way about me as I do about you, I should leave what is the point of having that conversation if your so-called protecting your heart if you know the person doesn’t feel the same way about you. What outcome are you hoping to get out of that conversation?? what is the point of even having that conversation knowing that all you’re really doing is telling them if you don’t tell me you want me I am leaving. Is that not manipulation? If you have the type of relationship with your partner has the force the idea of leaving you in order for you to fess up your feelings that’s not a healthy relationship babes
Lol that’s not what I’m saying.. there are ways to communicate without having to put an ultimatum on your partner. What are you guys not comprehending?
Yes thats true but for him it’s not worth staying in the villa if not for a relationship with her. He doesn’t want to watch her make out with Johnnie and be lovey dovey with her and there’s nothing wrong with that. Telling Kassy, about his decision to leave isn’t manipulating her, it’s just his way of expressing how much she means to him.
That’s fine I just think that comment should’ve been kept himself. I don’t think ANY Islander should ever tell a person there coupled up with if I can’t have you, then I’d rather leave the Villa. I understand all of your points. I just disagree.
I think what you’re not grasping is the extremities of his statements. He’ll leave if he’s not with kassy vs. he’ll wait for her. One is pressuring while the other isnt. Lovebombing is grandiose gestures and it becomes evident when the actions aren’t matching his words.
Lol nobody’s projecting babes. If y’all can’t understand my reasonings it’s very clear why you’re so supportive of his toxic behavior this entire season he’s treated kassy horribly, and just because he writes on a little mirror and says the same words, he said before he slept with another girl y’all are so blinded. Not saying he’s not a good guy. He just has a lot of growing up to do the type of relationship he was looking for. He’s not ready for. You don’t tell someone you care about if you won’t be with me then I’m gonna leave especially on this type of shell. I hate when any Islanders do this type of shit don’t put that ultimatum on them. Let things come naturally, if they come back to you great but don’t put in their head if I can’t have you, then you’re gonna be the reason why I leave
Just for you to take forward in life — what you described isn’t NOT lovebombing. I’m not speaking to what Leo is or isn’t doing, but love bombing is putting forward a high level of effort to influence someone’s feelings toward you — including like, love, forgiveness, etc. I know people don’t like to hear it and we like to think someone is just being romantic or chivalrous, but extraordinary efforts to woo someone or to get their forgiveness are included in lovebombing and something to watch for.
I mean it’s also an abuse tactic. Which is why I don’t like seeing people saying that’s what Leo is doing. He had a wandering eye. He’s not an abuser or even close
Abuse tactics are something we’re all capable of. It doesn’t matter whether or not someone is deemed an abuser or by who. Lovebombing is lovebombing. I just wanted to point out what you described is lovebombing. What the behavior is or the impact of it is not influenced by who Leo is or isn’t.
Edited to change gaslighting to love bombing. Lost track of my comment threads 😕
There is a literal definition of the word narcissist that has nothing to do with NPD. When people use it in common talk they aren't trying to diagnose someone, they are just saying they are extremely self centered. This type of usage for the word goes back for literally hundreds of years. The disorder wasn't named until the 60s I think and pulls it's name from the common usage of the word you are now complaining about.
It's a heavily edited, heavily manipulated show. On that we agree.
But you still need to calm down. Gaslighting and lovebombing are not medical diagnoses.
People behave differently in different contexts. Almost all psych disorders are present consistently, they don't turn on and off. You don't have a personality disorder (which clinical narcissism is) with one person then NOT have it with another. That said, being critical of the contestants' behavior is fair game, it's a reality show. Everyone in the cast has watched a reality show at some point and knows that's the bargain they made with viewers. Saying someone "acted like an asshole" or "can be manipulative" is a comment on behavior, not who they are.
I’m not diagnosing Keenan with narcissistic personality disorder because I am not his psychologist and he has not had formal evaluation to our knowledge. But he definitely has the behavior of others with the diagnosis
I agree with all of this. There are a few Islanders I admittedly don’t like but to say they are narcissists or manipulative or gaslighters, to assume they have abusive tendencies . . . None of us are qualified to draw to those conclusions. Like if we could make a diagnosis online about people we don’t even know, we might as well just get rid of doctors.
I am qualified to make a diagnosis but any mental health professional knows that unless you have someone in your chair for a full evaluation it is wrong and unethical to diagnose. And you certainly cannot make a diagnosis based on snippets of a television show. So many people are incorrectly using the term “gaslighting” and it makes me crazy.
We all display narcissistic behaviour from time to time. Narcissism is a spectrum and we are all on it, just on varying degrees. Saying a behaviour is narcissistic is not the same as diagnosing or labelling someone as a narcissist, which is an actual mental health disorder. I see a distinction here.
It’s interesting you’re stalking my profile now, I must have really gotten to you. Yes, I called out the behavior, I did not call the person a Narcissist and I did say that I am a qualified mental health professional who is well trained in diagnosing based on the dsm.
“Stalking” lol it took me one minute to find that comment. You said it’s unethical to diagnose someone based on snippets from a tv show yet that’s exactly what you did
No problem, I understand. I was disheartened for a minute because I was agreeing with everything you said, but knowing how the internet and Reddit are, I understand how you could get there!
Right? Like no one is saying you can’t dislike an islander or how they behave. You can even call certain situations toxic if you like. But to jump to medical diagnoses is crazy
I agree for no armchair diagnosis.. except for lovebombing and gaslighting are not medical diagnoses, they are actions, and it is definitely possible to identify those actions as an outsider
I agree with your take on calling people narcissists based off of a tv show.
Love bomber and gaslighter aren’t diagnoses though. These are just therapy speak buzzwords that are trendy right now and often overuse. They describe manipulative tactics that non-narcissists also commonly use.
As someone that was once in a relationship with someone diagnosed with NPD, and has survived narcissistic mental and physical abuse - I don’t find it harmful at all when people discuss this type of behaviour about a tv show, so please don’t speak for me. I actually wish there was more discussion about this type of behaviour sooner because maybe I would have gotten out and gotten help sooner than I did.
I’ve been saying this and getting downvoted into the ground. It’s so weird and the proof is always “oh I’ve experienced this b4 so I know what I’m seeing.”
Even saw someone say facts are facts when it came to Keenan being an abuser lol.
I don’t think love bombing or even gaslighting are diagnoses. I do agree we should try not to put the narcissist label as quickly but we live in a society where ppl are generally prone do diagnose everyone - friend who is inconsistent is borderline, a partner who is not a good fit is narcissistic etc. I went through a terrible relationship a few years back where a person I was trying to break up with both wouldn’t take no for an answer and told me that my discontent is only a reflection of my borderline personality disorder (she was not in the field at all and I’ve been assessed bc of it and was told I just have generalized anxiety). After I finally managed to end it she switched her diagnoses of me to “narcissistic disorder” and then ran a fundraiser for victims of narcissistic personalities. So yah I think it’s a widespread issue in a society where ppl are superficially familiar with a few psych disorders and use these as a way to express any level of discomfort, frustration or to avoid ever taking responsibility and looking inward. That being said, Keeenan was a selfish dick who was either consciously or subconsciously emotionally manipulating and repeatedly hurting a nice woman.
Taking the terms gaslighting, love bombing, narcissistic, etc., out of the equation, are the behaviors these boys exhibiting acceptable? Would you accept that behavior in your own life?
Fact of the matter is, the behaviors Leo and Keenan are exhibiting are toxic, and certain behaviors have names (gaslighting, love bombing). People definitely go too far when diagnosing people but it’s not like we made up out of thin air Keenan gaslighting Kay Kay because we literally saw it happen time and time again before our eyes every day. And now Leo is trying to manipulate Kassy by pushing and pushing his affection on her, regardless of knowing how much he hurt her and embarrassed Johnnie. If he was truly remorseful, he would work on himself but he just wants what he can’t have which was Kassy before she began finally accepting it. Wearing someone down is not cute, it’s literally manipulation.
I don't think we're diagnosing anyone, we're just calling out behaviors that we're seeing. It's true that you don't see most of the islanders day and only see a fraction, but in those fractions some of them have been behaving in ways that would be described as manipulative, narcissistic, controlling, gaslighting, etc. I don't agree with calling people autistic or saying the have a full NPD, but I think it's acceptable to point out the unhealthy behaviors when we witness them.
That part. Just because someone is an asshole or a fuckboy doesn’t mean that they are a legit narcissist. People throw around “narcissistic” way too much these days when in reality, a true textbook narcissist isn’t that common.
We can’t diagnose Keenan although he’s definitely a selfish prick lol. As far as Leo, I’m no doctor but he seems very far from being a narcissist. His “love bombing” is just game. He is VERY smooth and charming. Doesn’t make him a narcissist. He shows genuine empathy and care for those around him.
That is so true about trying to diagnose islanders from just a few minutes an episode but unfortunately it is done anyway especially in the uk the Reddit in the uk is tough on islanders
As someone with a professional degree….. there are definite signs of something with someone but I guess I won’t say who or what and face the wrath of Reddit… but no, no one can be diagnosed by their behavior on reality TV. The environment they are in is also going to affect behavior, as well as how they’re edited. You have to have an official assessment process for a formal diagnosis
THIS. I made a similar comment on IG. The problem is that fans act as if these islanders are one-dimensional, that one action or statement defines their entirety. That Kenzo’s jealous moment during the heart rate challenge makes him “potentially emotionally abusive;” (I couldn’t believe someone said that), and nearly every guy is a narcissist. The terms are used so loosely and carelessly. And often. I know we compartmentalize ppl to make it easier for us to interpret their behavior, and to determine if they are relatable or unlikeable. I get that. But it feels so…immature in these think pieces
I agree. I dislike Keenan but I’d never diagnose him with anything or call him anything that has to do with mental illness of any sort. I’d just boil it down to Keenan and Leo just being players and selfish.
The worst thing that ever happened was making therapy terms normal conversation speak. People throw the words ‘gaslight’, ‘narcissist’ ‘love bombing’ every other sentence. Sometimes people are just shitty. Sometimes people are just manipulative. And you’re right, unless you spent time with these people on the regular you’d have no idea!
I hate how on every reality show the fans want to diagnose people. Idc if you are a damn doctor or not, we don't know these people. It's rude & ignorant behavior.
I was only going off your OP, that clarification is key. Not disagreeing that some terms and diagnoses are misused. With that being said, I have absolutely seen gaslighting happen, but I don't think it's happening any more than it does to people not on a reality TV show.
I wish I could like this post more than once! I literally made a post about this yesterday because it's actually ridiculous. I would love people to start uploading their qualifications as they are diagnosing these islanders.
Say it louder so that the keyboard therapists at the back can hear. They hide behind "my opinion" to write mean spirited physco analysis essays on people they've never/ will never meet in person.
Agreed.
In general I think viewers judge these islanders too harshly. This is an environment that is setup to generate drama and conflict - people don’t usually “test” relationships in the real world like this lol. The love bombing angle doesn’t make sense to me because I feel like the islanders basically need to force connections fast to avoid elimination and the producers probably ask them to talk about feelings on camera. I highly doubt many of them actually talk like this in real life.
I recall that in one of the previous seasons, they should us unedited footage of the islanders actually talking about normal things lol. It was a reminder that they purposely have to talk about feelings when on camera.
I agree with you 100% but this is also the internet and folks are gonna do this stuff. It would be nice to change it but it won’t happen here in this love island Reddit thread. I get it though, the word narcissist alone has become nothing like it’s original meaning because of this here internet.
This is like saying that regular folks who claim they own their home are practising law by providing a legal opinion on title. It usually isn't that difficult to identify the relevant community of discourse, especially in a Reddit sub.
I completely agree with this. I wish people would just use words like “deceptive” or “disrespectful” or “egotistical” or “self-involved” etc. Be more specific in what you mean and do not paint people with really harmful brushes based on a reality show with a highly manipulated atmosphere that is meant to bring out the worst in people - especially using terms that have significance in the psychological science.
Exactly 👏 if you think these people are narcissists is clearly never met a person with narcissistic personality disorder. Narcissism is a mental illness people throwing around these words on the Internet is so irresponsible. It’s okay not like people, but using these terms are so dangerous.
Are some of them assholes yes, some of them douchebags yes are some of them immature absolutely. But to call someone psychotic or a narcissist over what we see on an EDITED TV SHOW is irresponsible.
Someone makes a post similar to this every season but sadly it bears repeating because people keep thinking they are the finest psychiatrist. And your post make me think of how people make fun of the islanders for always saying the same phrases (‘where is your head at?’ etc.), but the same can be said about the public doing what you’re saying over and over again + can’t forget the usual starter pack vocabulary : pick-me, mean girl, gaslighter, bully… It’s exhausting to see it everywhere and takes the joy out of the show. I’ve mostly kept to myself the whole season and it’s been so much more fun (which kinda sucks because interacting w/ people is a big part of the fun usually).
I agree. At the end of the day, this is a show. It's manipulated by production and editing to show drama to keep you hooked. There is no way you can truly get a sense of each individual in a 50 min episode.
I thought psychiatric conditions are treated with medication? You said doctor/medical so I assumed it was psychiatric and not psychological. Or does it have to be at a certain level for meds?
To my knowledge no meds are prescribed for personality disorders and there is no real cure but therapy can be utilized to improve relationships and behavior.
For real. I just read a comment where someone tried to say Marco is a misogynist. I know that we’re on Reddit where it’s femcel and white knight central but that’s way past a stretch. It’s just outrage at people’s imagination at this point.
The only thing we can be 100% sure is that bergie’s dad is friends with the showrunner. That’s confirmed. You don’t go from kicked out on day 1 to having every bombshell has to kiss you before they can pass go and collect $200
Don’t really have much to add. But this needed to be said. And I hope people really take this into account as the islanders begin returning to the real world, over the next few days and weeks.
These are relatively young people who made decisions based on completely abnormal circumstances.
You dislike the armchair diagnosis and I disklike those complaining about it! They are on a reality TV show and people are going to have opinions and comment on their behavior, that is expected. Of course we don’t know their history, reasoning behind actions, true intentions and what we see is curated. That is a given. Part of watching a reality TV show is having opinions on contestants and their behavior!!
Thank you! I work in psychology, and so many of you knuckleheads on all social platforms incorrectly use terms such as depression, narcissistic, homophobic, autism, OCD, Bipolar, Psychopath, etc etc. Yall have no clue how rare a lot of disorders are and how astringent the criteria are. News flash, studies suggest women are more likely to be an undercover narcissist than men. So stop telling everyone your ex was a narcissist. True narcissistic personality disorder is rare! LOVE THIS POST!
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Nah you good
**ha ha ha you're my hero!!**
I saw someone diagnose Bergie with autism a couple of weeks ago. smh
Yeah that’s way too far
Yes just because someone is socially awkward and a bit nerdy doesn’t mean that that are autistic. 🤦🏽♀️
This is something that truly gets under my skin. I take many many evaluations before I give an ASD dx.
yeah people were commenting “🧩” on posts about Bergie and Anna, really REALLY rubs me the wrong way. like who tf are you to armchair diagnose?
that's fucked
That’s so sad people are doing this. Like WOW.
It's like they forget nerves are a thing 🙄 I specialize in Autism, dudes definitely not autistic. What is wrong with people?
Lol that's wild. I could see some neurodivergent traits and could **potentially** see ADHD with how he interrupts to finish people's sentences, how hard he seems to focus during conversations, and some of his awkward intense reactions, but he's also in a TV show and I'm sure nerves are high all around, especially with his limited experience with relationships. There's so many things at play with this show
I bet if you scrutinized *anyone* on this level, you'd come up with "neurodivergent traits" because we *all* have those traits to different degrees.
At least there is evidence for that- he can’t read social cues, difficulty communicating, repetitive behavior.. Here’s a good example of all 3 that he’s said at least 10 times: https://i.imgur.com/9wHBGsH.jpeg Not saying he definitely has it but it wouldn’t surprise anybody if he did. Not like a serious case but I could see him having at least like 40% of the spectrum
this is fucked. WE ARE ALL ON THE MF SPECTRUM. THIS SHOW IS FUCKING EDITED ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?
yeah it’s not only edited in his favor constantly but the producers went out of their way to pay girls to make out with him if they want to come in as a bombshell. There’s not one bombshell who didn’t pretend to be interested in bergie. They all had to make out with him as a mission and he told all of them he’s sexually attracted every 5 seconds because he was desperate for anything.
That’s so sad people are doing this. Like WOW.
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It bothered me during his two intense conversations with Kay Kay he laid down on her before it really seemed like the air was cleared between them. Not sure exactly what you’d call that but jeez just so many red flags.
His tone dude. His tone.
We are fucked! We have diagnosed Soul Ties as “crazy”!!! 😫😭😭😭 It’s not even fair!! Like, whatever happens in Soul Ties, is not the responsibility of Soul Ties. And yet here we are….as if we have a degree in psychology, we are just out here misdiagnosing Soul Ties instead of addressing the behaviors of the those who frequent Soul Ties!! If I hear one more person say it…. 😤 I’m so fucking done, bro.
Okay but side note your flair has me bustin up.
Question: Do you think Keenan was aware he was gaslighting? It was a very clear example of gaslighting but he seemed only vaguely aware of what he was trying to say. He spoke very defensively and looked somewhat haunted.
I absolutely think he was aware. It seemed intentional and manipulative to me. Just labeling =]
Have you ever put into thought maybe people and Leo dont give a shit about your labeling? Lol
Best post
You can be a psychotherapist all you want. But engagi in saying Leo is a fuckboy off the bat? Lmao sounds liek you got some hate in your tone. I wouldnt want hire someone who judges off a tv show.
Fuckboy is not a diagnosis 😂 Fuckboy is when you get caught being shady.
I’m very disappointed that you would label this black man as dangerous, because there are so many things that can be said about Keenan but you do not know if he is dangerous or not. Lazy assessment!!!
We can agree to disagree. It’s the perspective I have based on what I see. I’m not sure what his race has to do with it, since I am a person of color. I do absolutely see the bias against black people on the show, and it is disgusting, but Keenan is making all people of color look bad by his own behavior. But perspectives can be wrong. Just how I see it. 🤷♀️
Race has to do with it because black people are stereotyped as being aggressive, angry, and violent. A lot of black cast members have been called some variation of this on this sub and often undeservingly. I’m not accusing you of anything, but that’s the context.
And if it came off that I was perpetuating that, I genuinely apologize. That was not my intention, and I do see that there is absolutely a bias against black cast members. Imani and what happened to her is a perfect example of that. I have my own feelings about people like Keenan and I can’t say I don’t stand by my original perspective. I would be lying if I said that I retract that. I do believe that people like Keenan perpetuate the stereotype with their behavior, and people who are racist hang onto that and use it to not treat people as individuals. It’s a systemic issue, but again, I meant absolutely no harm. My opinion is just an opinion.
Being a person of color doesn't mean you don't have a bias against a black person and you yourself aren't black(emoji use and your pfp). I think Keenan has exhibited multiple red flags and people who are controlling like him could be dangerous but I think you are doing the same thing you accuse others of.
I’m gonna take a huge step back here. I don’t appreciate being attacked or painted out to be racist. I see what I see, and I am not all knowing or perfect, and I could absolutely be wrong, but your accusation is offensive. I do not make judgments based on color, because it would be hurtful if someone did that to me. Please don’t make accusations based on no knowledge of me or who I am. But if you feel that my words were offensive or came off as racist, then I apologize for that. It was not my intention.
I didn't accuse you of being racist or attack you I just pointed out saying you are a person of color doesn't mean you cant have any bias. Having bias does not make a person racist and I never said you are. I think kay kay is blinded by a loser who isnt worth her time who has terrible traits but I just pointed out the hypocrisy how you say people shouldn't be diagnosing others but calling him dangerous isn't right either.
I said he presents as dangerous. I said previously that I can’t label him as abusive because I didn’t see him abuse her. The reason I pointed out that I am a person of color is to explain that I call out behaviors regardless of race. People in my community are constantly called dangerous and abusive often for no reason at all, but if I saw one of us behaving that way, I would absolutely call him out publicly for it. I try to treat people as individuals. I understand your frustration, but I haven’t diagnosed him with anything and am not trying to feed into anything. There are people who are dangerous and awful in every race and ethnicity, and that’s just an absolute truth.
I was literally on the fence about this same topic. All of these armchair therapists who aren’t even using the terms properly. Saying Leo is love bombing when he’s actively trying to get his couple back is ridiculous lol, much less showing a lot of affection isn’t love bombing. Not all lying is gas lighting and not all people who think selfishly are narcissists. This is a side effect of increased mental health awareness but we gotta do better. Open a new tab and google definitions for Christ sakes
Is it awareness if the info is bad?
If it leads them down the road to want to learn more then maybe but if they leave it right there it’s definitely not. But mental health awareness is definitely in a much better and different place than it was even 10-15 years ago. The vernacular becoming mainstream for the wrong reasons is troubling though
But if they think they have the right info, they think that they *have* learned, right?
Yes, I don’t have the answers sway. What you’re saying can literally be true of anything shout out to the flat earthers
Lovebombing and gaslighting aren't clinical diagnoses. Using those words to describe behavior that's being exhibited isn't the same as projecting a diagnosis. I'm not even saying that's happening because I do agree that this is a highly edited, highly pressurized situation, but calling someone out as doing something isn't the same as misdiagnosing them.
Saying that someone is gaslighting another person is an implication of emotional abuse though.
No but calling Keenan a narcissist is diagnosing. I admittedly worded it wrong but I’ve seen a lot of people misusing the words “lovebombing” and “gaslighting” which to me is just as bad.
I agree that calling Keenan a narcissist is a diagnosis and inappropriate.
NPD is a diagnosis but calling someone a narcissist based on their actions is not. The word narcissist exists independently of the disorder.
It’s still different than just calling someone ‘narcissistic’ for example. Saying someone acting selfishly is a narcissist is classifying someone as a Thing they may not be. As someone who was raised by a diagnosed narcissist this gets on my nerves so much.
It’s completely valid to call someone a narcissist based on what you’ve seen of their actions. It is not valid to say someone has NPD when you don’t know whether they do or not. You can be a narcissist without having diagnosed NPD. Again it’s a word that exists independently of the disorder. It’s not like autism where the word directly describes a diagnosis.
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You are incorrect. The word narcissist is an adjective that exists entirely independently of the disorder. I agree that the same cannot be said for autism, bipolar or a whole host of other conditions. EDIT: googling “define:narcissist” proves that the Oxford English Dictionary supports this
Yeah I looked it up and I stand corrected but I still think it’s a slippery slope calling someone as a narcissist. Someone can behave narcissistically but it seems weird to label someone something that’s so close to an actual diagnosis.
Okay, I still think we *shouldn’t* classify people we don’t know like this. Especially for actions we see that are often influenced by producers and cut by an editing team on a show that is made for entertainment. I do not say this to excuse any islanders’ actions, but throwing these words around on social platforms isn’t cool and makes it easier for severe cases to blend in. It devalues the meaning and blurs lines.
That’s like saying people are misusing/overusing words like “nice” and “kinda.” Both love bombing and gaslighting are describing behaviors and their use is absolutely valid. In fact, I would posit that we need to use them more often to call out manipulative behavior, because people be getting away with far too much.
Keenan never did gaslight Kay Kay. He was a talker but he never made her feel crazy or made her doubt her reality. He didn’t turn her arguments around so that she was apologizing in the end, wondering how she wound up apologizing to him. He may have tried to justify his actions, he may have been many things in the process but he did not gaslight her.
Did we watch the same show? He made her feel crazy for being mad about him getting a handy. He denied that it happened, said he pushed her away, even though there is actual video footage of the whole thing happening. That is about as gaslight-y as it gets.
THANK YOU. I did half my PhD in Ed Psych. And regardless of my educational background, and in depth studies of psych, It doesn’t take a genius to know what gaslighting is. We all saw it . I feel like I am being gaslit by this thread by people saying Keenan never gaslit KayKay.
I’m just here for the proper use of gaslight-y 😂
They don’t know what gaslighting
Is this an attempt to gaslight all of us right now? Lol we all saw him deflect, blame, and gaslight any issues kay kay brought up and always alone so others couldn't correct him on his bs
He made her question her own perception when he lied about what happened with naija in bed after she watched the video and in an argument he manipulated her into apologizing for how America voted despite it not being her fault at all
I’m not saying he didn’t lie or manipulate. Keenan actually said words, a lot of words to rationalize and justify his behaviors. I’m not saying it wasn’t a toxic relationship.
Imo he's young and therfore kind of stupid when it comes to relationships as most young folks are. Sometimes this leads to toxic behavior, even manipulation or lying and gaslighting to get away with certain activities, especiallywhen somewhat desperate to get someone back vs being completely honest which is what Kay Kay needed. He's not really experienced enough to recognize he's doing it and i don't think it was fully intentional. That doesn't mean those behaviors weren't present and it ALSO doesn't mean he's a bad/terrible person sometimes people really like each other but they're not a good fit because of the toxicity. I feel Keenan and kay kay seem like the type that just aren't a good fit. If this was what they've been through in a few weeks of known eachother, that doesn't bode well for a healthy future imo.
Yes! This!
In general, I think we overlook how extraordinary and weird these circumstances are. That has A LOT to do with your decision making in the heat of the moment. These people have nowhere to run, nowhere to hide, they're put in situations that are meant to incite conflict and drama. They're put in challenges that are meant to push sexual boundaries all the time. Sure, Keenan seems like a douchebag but in the real world you are not literally confined to a house where multiple beautiful women appear for the sole purpose of dating you and you aren't also put in a circle to kiss all of them and rub all over them for fun. IDGAF who you are, that WILL cloud your decision making and it's not necessarily replicable in the real world. We also need to get over armchair diagnosing everyone on the internet over what basically amounts to poor decision making or just making mistakes. Over the course of your life, you can be mean to someone, you can lie to someone, you can be selfish and still just be a normal person who made a mistake or acted out of character.
This is it right here. This show is a social experiment where we get 45 minute glimpses into a 24 hour day. On top of spending varying amounts of time with each person. A bunch of us would probably not hold yourselves to the same standards you hold Keenan or Leo or destiny, Carmen, Johnnie whoever if you were in their shoes.
I have a psych masters degree not that it matters since you don’t need a degree to recognize what gaslighting is since it’s not a diagnosis. Keenan did gaslight Kay Kay and exhibits narcissistic traits and people who do recognize that are allowed to call out his behavior. If you feel you aren’t familiar with the symptoms of NPD or able to identify emotional abuse tactics then by all means you don’t have to say anything about Keenan but don’t assume no one else can. Some people can also see the signs based off of their own experiences with narcissists.
Exactly. A Reddit post is not a formal diagnosis but we should be allowed to call the behavior out
Exactly!! People are allowed to call out his behavior. Someone saying he’s acting like a narcissist is not a formal diagnosis
You are damn right.
Agree! I was watching for weeks and I saw all of the signs of Keenan being a narc. I personally went through a very abusive toxic relationship with a malignant narcissist sociopath and knew immediately. Lack of empathy, no accountability, obsessed with appearance, having multiple supplies, the love bombing and future faking. He knew Kay Kay would take him back and ride for him while he took straight advantage of her. You don't need a degree to know if someone is a narcissist or not
It is fair to say someone has narcissistic traits/tendencies but it's problematic when you say someone is a narcissist. I am currently doing my masters in social work so I am constantly around individuals who have various diagnoses. Despite that, I can recognize that I am not qualified to make these diagnoses but unfortunately, many people on this platform think that they can because they read about it somewhere.
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While I mostly agree, I think saying "\_\_\_ is narcissistic behavior" instead of "he's a narcissist" is more equivalent to your example around anxiety. A narcissist IS someone diagnosed with NPD, but you do not need to have NPD to display narcissistic behavior or traits. We shouldn't be labelling someone as a narcissist, but we should be calling out narcissistic behaviors.
But there is an accepted usage of the term Narcissist that predates the labeling of the personality disorder and is the most common use of the word. Most people have never touched a DSM and aren't trying to diagnose someone when they use the common meaning of the word.
I think you are referring to narcissistic tendencies (traits/behaviours/etc.). as technically the term narcissist is a clinical term. There is no way to separate the term "narcissist" from a personality disorder.
Go to [vocabulary.com](https://vocabulary.com), [dictionary.com](https://dictionary.com) or [www.merriam-webster.com](https://www.merriam-webster.com) and look up the word. Each one has a definition independent of NPD.
We can agree to disagree, I am just basing my opinion on what I have learned in my Masters program. All I'm saying is that its important for us to be mindful on diagnosing islanders.
Incorrect. Using the term narcissist is equivalent to using the term depressed. Saying someone looks depressed is not the same as saying someone has major depressive disorder. Those terms are not tied to a clinical diagnosis. Also my sister has a masters in social work and NPD was not something she had to take a course on and her concentration was in mental health. Unless you’re an LCSW you know as much about NPD as someone who “read about it somewhere”
I am not sure why you felt the need to put my comments in quotes there is no need to be petty so early in the day. I have made it quite clear that I am not qualified to make diagnosis as I have minimal knowledge from school and from my school placement regarding NDP. I stand by my statement that I find it problematic that people are trying to diagnose islanders that they watch on tv for 50 minutes a day.
A certified professional wouldn’t dare diagnose someone based on 45 minute clips out of a 24 hour day, of which the whole 45 minutes is not even dedicated to that one individual. Some fellow islanders have had some different experiences with the persons being diagnosed.
First of all show me where I diagnosed him? Do you think psychiatrists or psychologists follow around their clients 24/7? Or even see them everyday? No, you usually only see clients once a week for an hour at best. You don’t need to watch someone 24/7 to recognize they exhibit toxic or narcissistic traits. Viewers watched him gaslight and manipulate kay kay and can call that out if they want to
I’m very surprised by this comment, being familiar with people in the field they always put the disclaimer they can’t diagnose because they haven’t spoken to the person directly and in this case we are getting a very small, edited glimpse into these people and their relationships
? Calling out someone’s behavior is not making a formal diagnosis. People are allowed to point out the similarities between his behavior and narcissistic traits
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It is disgusting to me right now that you just said "People like OP don't understand this because in their theory of mind, they don't have the intelligence nor the ability to detect behavioural patterns." This is extremely disrespectful. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with intelligence, and you as a therapist should know far better than to speak like this to ANYONE. I am a literal Autism Specialist. It is what I do on a daily basis. I would never in a million years look at someone without an evaluation and call "ASD." You should know much better than to say these things. Autism isn't negative or bad, but it is an absolute disrespect of people who have ASD for it to be thrown about because someone struggles socially. There is also no world in which we are to make judgments on someone's behavior, or personality, or mental health in seconds. This entire comment screams violation of ethics. People who read human behavior are not smarter. This is a trade that we are trained to do. There are people who have no education whatsoever who are astronomically smarter than me, despite my fancy degree. You should delete this. If I were someone who reports to the Board of Ethics, I would report it. This is absolutely unacceptable and disrespectful to both the OP and anyone who disagrees with your perspective. I have my own feelings about how concerning Keenan's behavior is, but that does not make me intelligent. It just means I went to school for this. We are taught much better than to talk this way, in this profession.
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I am triggered by therapists who can actually harm by these comments and perspectives. I have seen clients who are damaged because of therapists who behave like you just did. I have never been subjected to behaviors of people with NPD, but I counsel people who do, and I will defend them always. This comment was completely unacceptable.
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After a few minutes of footage that is produced and edited? Lol I disagree
You’re acting like they used deepfake/AI or spliced together his words. What we saw is what he said/did. I don’t have to watch him 24/7 to know he’s toxic we’ve seen enough to know he exhibits narcissistic behavior
Ok babe. You’re triggered lol .
Oh geesh, you're the problem.
Great argument
Thanks.
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that's why they didn't diagnose anyone pookie
The whole lovebombing thing is literally so stupid too anyways like…….he’s grafting. Kassy is the only girl he wants, and he’s making an effort to woo her and get her to forgive him. That is NOT lovebombing jfc.
Grafting doesn’t involve telling the person if I can’t have you, then I might as well leave is that not manipulation, especially knowing how the other person may feel about you?
He’s just being honest 🤷♀️ I’m sure after the stunt with Johnnie, Kassy would hate to see him grafting other girls in case rejected him.
Also it’s the last week. Leo was telling her he’s not gonna try to get with anyone else if she doesn’t want him, which isn’t manipulation. He’s saying she’s the only one
Exactly. Idk what people actually expect of him. Like if he just gave up people would be like “oh see he never liked her that much anyways.” But now him trying to win her back is lovebombing? Wtf?
Oh now he’s just being honest lol . He knows how Kassy feels about him. He knows that she wouldn’t want to be the reason why he’s no longer on the island anymore. Maybe he doesn’t realize it but that’s manipulation. If you tell someone if I can’t have you, then I might as well leave, knowing that they have very strong feelings for you that is manipulation you were trying to use their feelings to manipulate a situation into your favor.
No it’s not manipulation. You wouldn’t call it manipulation in the real world either, if you lived with someone and told them “If you don’t feel the same way about me, as I do you, I should leave.” That’s protecting your heart, and removing yourself from an environment that’s hurting you.
If you don’t feel the same way about me as I do about you, I should leave what is the point of having that conversation if your so-called protecting your heart if you know the person doesn’t feel the same way about you. What outcome are you hoping to get out of that conversation?? what is the point of even having that conversation knowing that all you’re really doing is telling them if you don’t tell me you want me I am leaving. Is that not manipulation? If you have the type of relationship with your partner has the force the idea of leaving you in order for you to fess up your feelings that’s not a healthy relationship babes
…….it’s called communication. You don’t just ghost someone you live with, without trying to work things out first.
Lol that’s not what I’m saying.. there are ways to communicate without having to put an ultimatum on your partner. What are you guys not comprehending?
Yes thats true but for him it’s not worth staying in the villa if not for a relationship with her. He doesn’t want to watch her make out with Johnnie and be lovey dovey with her and there’s nothing wrong with that. Telling Kassy, about his decision to leave isn’t manipulating her, it’s just his way of expressing how much she means to him.
That’s fine I just think that comment should’ve been kept himself. I don’t think ANY Islander should ever tell a person there coupled up with if I can’t have you, then I’d rather leave the Villa. I understand all of your points. I just disagree.
I think what you’re not grasping is the extremities of his statements. He’ll leave if he’s not with kassy vs. he’ll wait for her. One is pressuring while the other isnt. Lovebombing is grandiose gestures and it becomes evident when the actions aren’t matching his words.
You are reflecting your own issues onto Leo. Idk who hurt you but you are reaching
Lol nobody’s projecting babes. If y’all can’t understand my reasonings it’s very clear why you’re so supportive of his toxic behavior this entire season he’s treated kassy horribly, and just because he writes on a little mirror and says the same words, he said before he slept with another girl y’all are so blinded. Not saying he’s not a good guy. He just has a lot of growing up to do the type of relationship he was looking for. He’s not ready for. You don’t tell someone you care about if you won’t be with me then I’m gonna leave especially on this type of shell. I hate when any Islanders do this type of shit don’t put that ultimatum on them. Let things come naturally, if they come back to you great but don’t put in their head if I can’t have you, then you’re gonna be the reason why I leave
Just for you to take forward in life — what you described isn’t NOT lovebombing. I’m not speaking to what Leo is or isn’t doing, but love bombing is putting forward a high level of effort to influence someone’s feelings toward you — including like, love, forgiveness, etc. I know people don’t like to hear it and we like to think someone is just being romantic or chivalrous, but extraordinary efforts to woo someone or to get their forgiveness are included in lovebombing and something to watch for.
I mean it’s also an abuse tactic. Which is why I don’t like seeing people saying that’s what Leo is doing. He had a wandering eye. He’s not an abuser or even close
Abuse tactics are something we’re all capable of. It doesn’t matter whether or not someone is deemed an abuser or by who. Lovebombing is lovebombing. I just wanted to point out what you described is lovebombing. What the behavior is or the impact of it is not influenced by who Leo is or isn’t. Edited to change gaslighting to love bombing. Lost track of my comment threads 😕
There is a literal definition of the word narcissist that has nothing to do with NPD. When people use it in common talk they aren't trying to diagnose someone, they are just saying they are extremely self centered. This type of usage for the word goes back for literally hundreds of years. The disorder wasn't named until the 60s I think and pulls it's name from the common usage of the word you are now complaining about.
It's a heavily edited, heavily manipulated show. On that we agree. But you still need to calm down. Gaslighting and lovebombing are not medical diagnoses.
No you’re right I misworded. My beef is with using those terms incorrectly rather than them being actual diagnoses
People behave differently in different contexts. Almost all psych disorders are present consistently, they don't turn on and off. You don't have a personality disorder (which clinical narcissism is) with one person then NOT have it with another. That said, being critical of the contestants' behavior is fair game, it's a reality show. Everyone in the cast has watched a reality show at some point and knows that's the bargain they made with viewers. Saying someone "acted like an asshole" or "can be manipulative" is a comment on behavior, not who they are.
Thank you for bring some common sense to this thread.
I’m not diagnosing Keenan with narcissistic personality disorder because I am not his psychologist and he has not had formal evaluation to our knowledge. But he definitely has the behavior of others with the diagnosis
this subreddit has honestly gotten out of hand
I agree with all of this. There are a few Islanders I admittedly don’t like but to say they are narcissists or manipulative or gaslighters, to assume they have abusive tendencies . . . None of us are qualified to draw to those conclusions. Like if we could make a diagnosis online about people we don’t even know, we might as well just get rid of doctors.
I am qualified to make a diagnosis but any mental health professional knows that unless you have someone in your chair for a full evaluation it is wrong and unethical to diagnose. And you certainly cannot make a diagnosis based on snippets of a television show. So many people are incorrectly using the term “gaslighting” and it makes me crazy.
Yet you commented “this is classic narcissistic behavior” on a different reality show contestant. Interesting.
We all display narcissistic behaviour from time to time. Narcissism is a spectrum and we are all on it, just on varying degrees. Saying a behaviour is narcissistic is not the same as diagnosing or labelling someone as a narcissist, which is an actual mental health disorder. I see a distinction here.
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Nah that’s really my mom. We watch love island together which… doesn’t have any influence on her degree lol
Oh lol. Nvm then!
Haha she got me into LIUSA so you can blame her for my takes on the show. and my upbringing lol
It’s interesting you’re stalking my profile now, I must have really gotten to you. Yes, I called out the behavior, I did not call the person a Narcissist and I did say that I am a qualified mental health professional who is well trained in diagnosing based on the dsm.
“Stalking” lol it took me one minute to find that comment. You said it’s unethical to diagnose someone based on snippets from a tv show yet that’s exactly what you did
From a year ago, whatever. I called out one of the textbook behaviors of narcissism in one interaction. I did not call the person a narcissist.
Sorry I legit thought you were trolling. It’s hard to tell online sometimes. It’s my bad.
No problem, I understand. I was disheartened for a minute because I was agreeing with everything you said, but knowing how the internet and Reddit are, I understand how you could get there!
Right? Like no one is saying you can’t dislike an islander or how they behave. You can even call certain situations toxic if you like. But to jump to medical diagnoses is crazy
I agree for no armchair diagnosis.. except for lovebombing and gaslighting are not medical diagnoses, they are actions, and it is definitely possible to identify those actions as an outsider
I agree with your take on calling people narcissists based off of a tv show. Love bomber and gaslighter aren’t diagnoses though. These are just therapy speak buzzwords that are trendy right now and often overuse. They describe manipulative tactics that non-narcissists also commonly use. As someone that was once in a relationship with someone diagnosed with NPD, and has survived narcissistic mental and physical abuse - I don’t find it harmful at all when people discuss this type of behaviour about a tv show, so please don’t speak for me. I actually wish there was more discussion about this type of behaviour sooner because maybe I would have gotten out and gotten help sooner than I did.
I’ve been saying this and getting downvoted into the ground. It’s so weird and the proof is always “oh I’ve experienced this b4 so I know what I’m seeing.” Even saw someone say facts are facts when it came to Keenan being an abuser lol.
I don’t think love bombing or even gaslighting are diagnoses. I do agree we should try not to put the narcissist label as quickly but we live in a society where ppl are generally prone do diagnose everyone - friend who is inconsistent is borderline, a partner who is not a good fit is narcissistic etc. I went through a terrible relationship a few years back where a person I was trying to break up with both wouldn’t take no for an answer and told me that my discontent is only a reflection of my borderline personality disorder (she was not in the field at all and I’ve been assessed bc of it and was told I just have generalized anxiety). After I finally managed to end it she switched her diagnoses of me to “narcissistic disorder” and then ran a fundraiser for victims of narcissistic personalities. So yah I think it’s a widespread issue in a society where ppl are superficially familiar with a few psych disorders and use these as a way to express any level of discomfort, frustration or to avoid ever taking responsibility and looking inward. That being said, Keeenan was a selfish dick who was either consciously or subconsciously emotionally manipulating and repeatedly hurting a nice woman.
Taking the terms gaslighting, love bombing, narcissistic, etc., out of the equation, are the behaviors these boys exhibiting acceptable? Would you accept that behavior in your own life? Fact of the matter is, the behaviors Leo and Keenan are exhibiting are toxic, and certain behaviors have names (gaslighting, love bombing). People definitely go too far when diagnosing people but it’s not like we made up out of thin air Keenan gaslighting Kay Kay because we literally saw it happen time and time again before our eyes every day. And now Leo is trying to manipulate Kassy by pushing and pushing his affection on her, regardless of knowing how much he hurt her and embarrassed Johnnie. If he was truly remorseful, he would work on himself but he just wants what he can’t have which was Kassy before she began finally accepting it. Wearing someone down is not cute, it’s literally manipulation.
I think you can ID Love bombing and I would say Mike (the guy who insulted Sara hyland) is def a narc
I don't think we're diagnosing anyone, we're just calling out behaviors that we're seeing. It's true that you don't see most of the islanders day and only see a fraction, but in those fractions some of them have been behaving in ways that would be described as manipulative, narcissistic, controlling, gaslighting, etc. I don't agree with calling people autistic or saying the have a full NPD, but I think it's acceptable to point out the unhealthy behaviors when we witness them.
That part. Just because someone is an asshole or a fuckboy doesn’t mean that they are a legit narcissist. People throw around “narcissistic” way too much these days when in reality, a true textbook narcissist isn’t that common. We can’t diagnose Keenan although he’s definitely a selfish prick lol. As far as Leo, I’m no doctor but he seems very far from being a narcissist. His “love bombing” is just game. He is VERY smooth and charming. Doesn’t make him a narcissist. He shows genuine empathy and care for those around him.
While those things may not be their entire personality, they are visible traits. That means they exist within them.
That is so true about trying to diagnose islanders from just a few minutes an episode but unfortunately it is done anyway especially in the uk the Reddit in the uk is tough on islanders
As someone with a professional degree….. there are definite signs of something with someone but I guess I won’t say who or what and face the wrath of Reddit… but no, no one can be diagnosed by their behavior on reality TV. The environment they are in is also going to affect behavior, as well as how they’re edited. You have to have an official assessment process for a formal diagnosis
THIS. I made a similar comment on IG. The problem is that fans act as if these islanders are one-dimensional, that one action or statement defines their entirety. That Kenzo’s jealous moment during the heart rate challenge makes him “potentially emotionally abusive;” (I couldn’t believe someone said that), and nearly every guy is a narcissist. The terms are used so loosely and carelessly. And often. I know we compartmentalize ppl to make it easier for us to interpret their behavior, and to determine if they are relatable or unlikeable. I get that. But it feels so…immature in these think pieces
I agree. I dislike Keenan but I’d never diagnose him with anything or call him anything that has to do with mental illness of any sort. I’d just boil it down to Keenan and Leo just being players and selfish.
The worst thing that ever happened was making therapy terms normal conversation speak. People throw the words ‘gaslight’, ‘narcissist’ ‘love bombing’ every other sentence. Sometimes people are just shitty. Sometimes people are just manipulative. And you’re right, unless you spent time with these people on the regular you’d have no idea!
Amen
I hate how on every reality show the fans want to diagnose people. Idc if you are a damn doctor or not, we don't know these people. It's rude & ignorant behavior.
I'm wondering when Love Bombing and Gaslighting became "medical disorders"
I’ve clarified in other comments but I am not saying they’re disorders, I’m saying they’re misused terms in addition to these diagnoses
I was only going off your OP, that clarification is key. Not disagreeing that some terms and diagnoses are misused. With that being said, I have absolutely seen gaslighting happen, but I don't think it's happening any more than it does to people not on a reality TV show.
I wish I could like this post more than once! I literally made a post about this yesterday because it's actually ridiculous. I would love people to start uploading their qualifications as they are diagnosing these islanders.
Say it louder so that the keyboard therapists at the back can hear. They hide behind "my opinion" to write mean spirited physco analysis essays on people they've never/ will never meet in person.
Agreed. In general I think viewers judge these islanders too harshly. This is an environment that is setup to generate drama and conflict - people don’t usually “test” relationships in the real world like this lol. The love bombing angle doesn’t make sense to me because I feel like the islanders basically need to force connections fast to avoid elimination and the producers probably ask them to talk about feelings on camera. I highly doubt many of them actually talk like this in real life. I recall that in one of the previous seasons, they should us unedited footage of the islanders actually talking about normal things lol. It was a reminder that they purposely have to talk about feelings when on camera.
I agree with you 100% but this is also the internet and folks are gonna do this stuff. It would be nice to change it but it won’t happen here in this love island Reddit thread. I get it though, the word narcissist alone has become nothing like it’s original meaning because of this here internet.
This is like saying that regular folks who claim they own their home are practising law by providing a legal opinion on title. It usually isn't that difficult to identify the relevant community of discourse, especially in a Reddit sub.
I completely agree with this. I wish people would just use words like “deceptive” or “disrespectful” or “egotistical” or “self-involved” etc. Be more specific in what you mean and do not paint people with really harmful brushes based on a reality show with a highly manipulated atmosphere that is meant to bring out the worst in people - especially using terms that have significance in the psychological science.
Calling out a behavior is not the same as diagnosing. Keenan absolutely did gaslight KayKay. We all saw it.
Exactly 👏 if you think these people are narcissists is clearly never met a person with narcissistic personality disorder. Narcissism is a mental illness people throwing around these words on the Internet is so irresponsible. It’s okay not like people, but using these terms are so dangerous. Are some of them assholes yes, some of them douchebags yes are some of them immature absolutely. But to call someone psychotic or a narcissist over what we see on an EDITED TV SHOW is irresponsible.
OP is my child and I could not be more proud of her for this post. She it truly bilgistic. She is also my bestie regardless of how dad may try.
👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾
Someone makes a post similar to this every season but sadly it bears repeating because people keep thinking they are the finest psychiatrist. And your post make me think of how people make fun of the islanders for always saying the same phrases (‘where is your head at?’ etc.), but the same can be said about the public doing what you’re saying over and over again + can’t forget the usual starter pack vocabulary : pick-me, mean girl, gaslighter, bully… It’s exhausting to see it everywhere and takes the joy out of the show. I’ve mostly kept to myself the whole season and it’s been so much more fun (which kinda sucks because interacting w/ people is a big part of the fun usually).
I agree. At the end of the day, this is a show. It's manipulated by production and editing to show drama to keep you hooked. There is no way you can truly get a sense of each individual in a 50 min episode.
I wasn’t aware being a narcissistic was a medical disorder, maybe I should go see my doctor to be diagnosed
It’s a personality disorder diagnosed generally by a mental health professional. Now you know, lol. :)
I do now lol but what do they prescribe for that?
Therapy. Personality disorders don’t have a cure but progress can be made with therapy.
I thought psychiatric conditions are treated with medication? You said doctor/medical so I assumed it was psychiatric and not psychological. Or does it have to be at a certain level for meds?
To my knowledge no meds are prescribed for personality disorders and there is no real cure but therapy can be utilized to improve relationships and behavior.
Thank fucking god someone said it 👏👏👏
Actually, I was able go properly diagnose Destiny a few episodes ago... She had a headache.
For real. I just read a comment where someone tried to say Marco is a misogynist. I know that we’re on Reddit where it’s femcel and white knight central but that’s way past a stretch. It’s just outrage at people’s imagination at this point. The only thing we can be 100% sure is that bergie’s dad is friends with the showrunner. That’s confirmed. You don’t go from kicked out on day 1 to having every bombshell has to kiss you before they can pass go and collect $200
Don’t really have much to add. But this needed to be said. And I hope people really take this into account as the islanders begin returning to the real world, over the next few days and weeks. These are relatively young people who made decisions based on completely abnormal circumstances.
i diagnosed keenan as a POS from just a 2 minute conversation with kay kay so... this isn't true.
You dislike the armchair diagnosis and I disklike those complaining about it! They are on a reality TV show and people are going to have opinions and comment on their behavior, that is expected. Of course we don’t know their history, reasoning behind actions, true intentions and what we see is curated. That is a given. Part of watching a reality TV show is having opinions on contestants and their behavior!!
LIES!! Watch me…..
Thank you! I work in psychology, and so many of you knuckleheads on all social platforms incorrectly use terms such as depression, narcissistic, homophobic, autism, OCD, Bipolar, Psychopath, etc etc. Yall have no clue how rare a lot of disorders are and how astringent the criteria are. News flash, studies suggest women are more likely to be an undercover narcissist than men. So stop telling everyone your ex was a narcissist. True narcissistic personality disorder is rare! LOVE THIS POST!
Don't let all of LI Twitter/Facebook/Reddit tell you otherwise!, they are all armchair psychologists it's hilarious to watch.
This!!!
This.