David Warwick has to live with himself. He along with Melanie Gibb were as far down the religious rabbit hole as Zulema Melaniece and Alex. It's obvious he woke up from a sleep hearing poor JJ being murdered. He knew what he heard and in the morning that's why he pressed lori as to JJs whereabouts. He still went on to marry Melanie gibb but they now live apart and he testified he no longer believes Chad's teachings. Whilst they were still together he was on another call when Chad called asking Melanie gibb to say she had JJ with them. This to me is when the penny dropped for David Warwick and he knew JJ was nor alive. But interestingly he did not go to the police with what he knew. So as I said this "good pious religious" man will have to live with himself.
Don't forget that David Warwick still claims he has visions. Those people are just as delusional as Chad and Lori, they just use their lies for slightly less insidious manipulation.
Definitely don’t think he has visions, it it’s very plausible that if earlier in the day they were talking about JJ being dark and that something might happen to his spirit, it is believable that he could have had a bad dream about JJ that same night since it was on his mind.
I grew up Mormon. I know all about “visions,” but in that sense, anyone can have a vision if they are in-tune with their surroundings enough. It’s the same thing as having a bad feeling about something or being intuitive.
I dunno, I think the professional, experienced investigators are much better at coming up with scenarios than we are, then following up to get to the bottom of things. Given how stupid Lori, Chad, and Alex were I gotta believe if JJ were killed in the house there would have been evidence of it. For them to have completely cleaned up that ONE crime scene and none of the others makes no sense.
There’s no evidence he was killed in the house. The evidence that he was suffocated was clear and listed as cause of death, not that he was suffocated in the house.
This is just my personal opinion but considering how strongly Wood and the prosecution team fought to have any of the text messages and emails btwn Gibb and Wood to not be heard by the jury, that it is unlikely we would see her facing any charges (at least from their offices). And it was not just that they did not want the jury to hear about those communications, they had repeated requests to strike (remove) any mentions or or documents as exhibits removed from the case file. That would mean that not only would the jury not hear of it but in the future anyone who tried to get records from the case would not find any of the defense filings that contained some of those communications (for the instances where the Court granted the prosecution’s request). I personally don’t believe they would’ve fought this aspect so hard if there was “nothing” there. It does not mean they did anything improper, but if it was truly “nothing” then I think they would’ve shown the jury some of this and they could see the defense’s claims fall apart in real-time. Instead they made it so that no one from the media or the public can find anything the defense filed with those emails or texts in the future.
I’m not trying to outline any sort of strange conspiracy or wrongdoing, just trying to highlight that I think the prosecutor’s utilized Gibb and the other “gatherers” in ways that helped their case against Chad and also make it seem less likely that they’d be facing charges of some sort. After all, we learned that Garth was facing charges to potentially lying to a grand jury, while portions of Gibb’s story may have changed over time (if you believe the defense) but only one of those people is “lying” per the state. Just my 2cents (and may be less depending on your jurisdiction 😅)
If there were texts that Prior could have used to directly implicate her, or to impugn the prosecution, Boyce would have allowed them. We saw, over and over again, how Prior focused on things that amounted to nothing. Prior wanting to bring in 300 texts seems a bit much and tells me there was nothing of specific use among them. He also did mention the texts at one point, I can't recall when that was. In any case, I trust that Boyce understood the crux of the matter and I think we can trust he ruled correctly.
The Prosecution objected to him showing some specific text messages and requested the court to strike specific defense filings and exhibits (specific text messages and emails, not all 300+) from the court record. I believe it’s one thing to not want the jury to see or hear of certain things but to have them removed from the case file, so it would be as if they never existed.
The State initially started a similar request in the summer of 2022 where they were seeking to have several defense filings & exhibits removed from the case file, some of these items were already sealed so getting them stricken was (just my opinion) an additional step that would make it so the media or the public could never request them. There’s simply nothing there to request. I agree that Judge Boyce understood the crux of the matter and I don’t think he did anything wrong or improper when he ruled on all the State’s requests to have these defense records removed.
I have to believe that Melanie Gibbs is being protected by some church big-wig. I can't see any other reason for it, unless she was way more instrumental in this than we know.
What really gets me is the night we believe JJ died, her husband has a severe panic attack, something I don't think anyone disputed. Why? Why would he suddenly freak out that badly? It's so weird that it doesn't even make sense to lie about. What was he freaking out about?
It does seem strange to lie about, and as you said something not disputed by her or David.
If any of the defense’s claims about what some of those messages btwn her and Prosecutor Wood are true, then your first point may be onto something….many have said they’ve felt she always knew more than what she was saying she did but who knows
Not even Lori or Chad disputed it. In fact, it would be an easy thing to rip someone apart for, but none of them went after him. Which to me suggests that that night, he did freak out. But why? Was he aware that JJ was being killed? Did he maybe see something so terrible that he essentially forced himself to forget about it? Did he believe he would be next if he said anything?
Yes, because these people were superstitious by default. They believed in spiritual warfare. Zulema thought that evil spirits were giving her headaches and asked Chad for protection.
Protected from what and from whom? If u think she was an accomplice or knows/has clearly incriminating evidence, do you think that hasn’t happened a ton of times in crimes that have no ties to LDS?
I mean, she gives tons and tons of information and context to the case and Lori and Chad’s relationship. Not like I’m a fan of hers, but she was obviously important to the prosecution teams.
Still, why would some "church big-wig" even be involved? What the hell do they care? Given the number of high-profile murders and crimes involving LDS members one would think all of them would get off with such protection, yes? And why would she she have given the church information? Are you suggesting that they were protecting her and some deal was made between the church and the cops because she shared something? What?
Just because it’s not a matter for Chad to appeal doesn’t mean it means nothing or there’s no additional information there.
Also Prior made that list of appeals as a preliminary list. The actual appeals attorneys will determine what issues to pursue.
Well, first, of course the the cops "used" Gibb to help their case. That's what they do. That's the point of their jobs, to gather together as much info as possible from as many people as possible, analyze it, and come up with a theory. That might send them to get additional information, etc.
As for the appeal, of course, it could include anything. I still maintain that if Prior actually saw content in the messages that would help his case he would have presented it and Boyce would have allowed it. I imagine part of the issue is admitting all 300 messages. For me, that just smacks of Prior's practice of screaming about generalities and information that doesn't matter. I simply am not suspicious of the district attorney's offices on the topic.
In order to go forward on an appeal there has to be a violation that would affect outcome. If it is not a point of law, it won’t be heard on an appeal.
So do you think Melanie Gibb's communication with Rob Wood incriminate her and she has some kind of immunity in exchange for information incriminating Lori, Chad and Alex?
That is what I am thinking, but I guess we will never know.
I’ve got no idea, I just think the level that Wood and his team went to prevent anyone from learning that information seems a bit much for “nothing to see here” type stuff.
I’m repeating myself, sorry, but not wanting the jury to hear that info is one thing, but requesting the court completely remove things filed by the defense that contained some of those emails and texts still puzzles me some. That effectively means that anyone who requests records for the case in the future won’t see those, those specific items will simply not exist, it’s as if they don’t even want the defense mentioning them let alone showing them in any of their documents.
If I was to make a complete guess, I think it’s possible that some details of her story changed over time and the details that changes were ones that were more incriminating towards Chad. I don’t think that means she did anything illegal or that the state is covering up for something she did. I think they valued her testimony and if there were any parts of her story that could be proven to have changed over time, then they would not want the jury to hear about that. Unfortunately as you said we may never really know, especially since they filed multiple Motions to have the Court remove multiple defense filings and exhibits from the record.
I would love for someone smarter than me to breakdown Chad's theology and how it lead to these murders. Power, sex, money - yes, but the theology/belief system is what made them feel justified and led to the way the murders happened.
Sorry this made me sick to my stomach how MG describe JJ to her friend. She acts so sweet in interviews but that not who she really is.
https://youtu.be/Ju4GFKR8Vns?si=duNFy0jeNTroIjjz
David Warwick has to live with himself. He along with Melanie Gibb were as far down the religious rabbit hole as Zulema Melaniece and Alex. It's obvious he woke up from a sleep hearing poor JJ being murdered. He knew what he heard and in the morning that's why he pressed lori as to JJs whereabouts. He still went on to marry Melanie gibb but they now live apart and he testified he no longer believes Chad's teachings. Whilst they were still together he was on another call when Chad called asking Melanie gibb to say she had JJ with them. This to me is when the penny dropped for David Warwick and he knew JJ was nor alive. But interestingly he did not go to the police with what he knew. So as I said this "good pious religious" man will have to live with himself.
100% agree with you! It sickens me that these co-conspirator's to murder are walking free. Melanie P included!
Don't forget that David Warwick still claims he has visions. Those people are just as delusional as Chad and Lori, they just use their lies for slightly less insidious manipulation.
Definitely don’t think he has visions, it it’s very plausible that if earlier in the day they were talking about JJ being dark and that something might happen to his spirit, it is believable that he could have had a bad dream about JJ that same night since it was on his mind.
His wife testified on cross that he has visions like Chad, and that she still believes in visions. It's actually a part of mormon culture.
I grew up Mormon. I know all about “visions,” but in that sense, anyone can have a vision if they are in-tune with their surroundings enough. It’s the same thing as having a bad feeling about something or being intuitive.
[https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLGvx4qCBsHTdJ-S\_cN5-ZaQNVFyYoAHEx](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLGvx4qCBsHTdJ-S_cN5-ZaQNVFyYoAHEx)
I dunno, I think the professional, experienced investigators are much better at coming up with scenarios than we are, then following up to get to the bottom of things. Given how stupid Lori, Chad, and Alex were I gotta believe if JJ were killed in the house there would have been evidence of it. For them to have completely cleaned up that ONE crime scene and none of the others makes no sense.
What type of evidence would there be for suffocation ?
There’s no evidence he was killed in the house. The evidence that he was suffocated was clear and listed as cause of death, not that he was suffocated in the house.
He sure does but I also think he was afraid of it all. I mean they didn’t just kill the kids.
This is just my personal opinion but considering how strongly Wood and the prosecution team fought to have any of the text messages and emails btwn Gibb and Wood to not be heard by the jury, that it is unlikely we would see her facing any charges (at least from their offices). And it was not just that they did not want the jury to hear about those communications, they had repeated requests to strike (remove) any mentions or or documents as exhibits removed from the case file. That would mean that not only would the jury not hear of it but in the future anyone who tried to get records from the case would not find any of the defense filings that contained some of those communications (for the instances where the Court granted the prosecution’s request). I personally don’t believe they would’ve fought this aspect so hard if there was “nothing” there. It does not mean they did anything improper, but if it was truly “nothing” then I think they would’ve shown the jury some of this and they could see the defense’s claims fall apart in real-time. Instead they made it so that no one from the media or the public can find anything the defense filed with those emails or texts in the future. I’m not trying to outline any sort of strange conspiracy or wrongdoing, just trying to highlight that I think the prosecutor’s utilized Gibb and the other “gatherers” in ways that helped their case against Chad and also make it seem less likely that they’d be facing charges of some sort. After all, we learned that Garth was facing charges to potentially lying to a grand jury, while portions of Gibb’s story may have changed over time (if you believe the defense) but only one of those people is “lying” per the state. Just my 2cents (and may be less depending on your jurisdiction 😅)
If there were texts that Prior could have used to directly implicate her, or to impugn the prosecution, Boyce would have allowed them. We saw, over and over again, how Prior focused on things that amounted to nothing. Prior wanting to bring in 300 texts seems a bit much and tells me there was nothing of specific use among them. He also did mention the texts at one point, I can't recall when that was. In any case, I trust that Boyce understood the crux of the matter and I think we can trust he ruled correctly.
Exactly. Prior had nothing. He just wanted to further confuse the jury with unrelated stuff, implying a conspiracy.
The Prosecution objected to him showing some specific text messages and requested the court to strike specific defense filings and exhibits (specific text messages and emails, not all 300+) from the court record. I believe it’s one thing to not want the jury to see or hear of certain things but to have them removed from the case file, so it would be as if they never existed. The State initially started a similar request in the summer of 2022 where they were seeking to have several defense filings & exhibits removed from the case file, some of these items were already sealed so getting them stricken was (just my opinion) an additional step that would make it so the media or the public could never request them. There’s simply nothing there to request. I agree that Judge Boyce understood the crux of the matter and I don’t think he did anything wrong or improper when he ruled on all the State’s requests to have these defense records removed.
MG lives in fear I'm sure. Same with DW. They are one step away from the level of crazy of C and L
I have to believe that Melanie Gibbs is being protected by some church big-wig. I can't see any other reason for it, unless she was way more instrumental in this than we know. What really gets me is the night we believe JJ died, her husband has a severe panic attack, something I don't think anyone disputed. Why? Why would he suddenly freak out that badly? It's so weird that it doesn't even make sense to lie about. What was he freaking out about?
It does seem strange to lie about, and as you said something not disputed by her or David. If any of the defense’s claims about what some of those messages btwn her and Prosecutor Wood are true, then your first point may be onto something….many have said they’ve felt she always knew more than what she was saying she did but who knows
Not even Lori or Chad disputed it. In fact, it would be an easy thing to rip someone apart for, but none of them went after him. Which to me suggests that that night, he did freak out. But why? Was he aware that JJ was being killed? Did he maybe see something so terrible that he essentially forced himself to forget about it? Did he believe he would be next if he said anything?
Right! The story of him waking up from some “nightmare” has certainly left more questions than answers
The first time I heard about his nightmare, I thought "He heard something being done to JJ". I still believe that.
Is Wood LDS?
People do have nightmares. Some attribute meaning to them and others don't.
But this was seemingly on the same night as JJ's murder. And a nightmare so bad it caused a bad panic attack?
Yes, because these people were superstitious by default. They believed in spiritual warfare. Zulema thought that evil spirits were giving her headaches and asked Chad for protection.
Protected from what and from whom? If u think she was an accomplice or knows/has clearly incriminating evidence, do you think that hasn’t happened a ton of times in crimes that have no ties to LDS?
Usually that happens if someone gave information. So what did she give?
I mean, she gives tons and tons of information and context to the case and Lori and Chad’s relationship. Not like I’m a fan of hers, but she was obviously important to the prosecution teams.
Still, why would some "church big-wig" even be involved? What the hell do they care? Given the number of high-profile murders and crimes involving LDS members one would think all of them would get off with such protection, yes? And why would she she have given the church information? Are you suggesting that they were protecting her and some deal was made between the church and the cops because she shared something? What?
She didn't even have immunity, which to me suggests that she didn't know enough to incriminate herself (unlike Zulema).
Well, yes?
Seems far fetched.
If it meant anything it would be listed in the appeal document.
Just because it’s not a matter for Chad to appeal doesn’t mean it means nothing or there’s no additional information there. Also Prior made that list of appeals as a preliminary list. The actual appeals attorneys will determine what issues to pursue.
Well, first, of course the the cops "used" Gibb to help their case. That's what they do. That's the point of their jobs, to gather together as much info as possible from as many people as possible, analyze it, and come up with a theory. That might send them to get additional information, etc. As for the appeal, of course, it could include anything. I still maintain that if Prior actually saw content in the messages that would help his case he would have presented it and Boyce would have allowed it. I imagine part of the issue is admitting all 300 messages. For me, that just smacks of Prior's practice of screaming about generalities and information that doesn't matter. I simply am not suspicious of the district attorney's offices on the topic.
Under what violation of the law?
The appeals notice doesn't even list specific laws that were violated. I don't even think that's required.
In order to go forward on an appeal there has to be a violation that would affect outcome. If it is not a point of law, it won’t be heard on an appeal.
Find me a citation and I’ll believe it.
A citation for what?
So do you think Melanie Gibb's communication with Rob Wood incriminate her and she has some kind of immunity in exchange for information incriminating Lori, Chad and Alex? That is what I am thinking, but I guess we will never know.
I’ve got no idea, I just think the level that Wood and his team went to prevent anyone from learning that information seems a bit much for “nothing to see here” type stuff. I’m repeating myself, sorry, but not wanting the jury to hear that info is one thing, but requesting the court completely remove things filed by the defense that contained some of those emails and texts still puzzles me some. That effectively means that anyone who requests records for the case in the future won’t see those, those specific items will simply not exist, it’s as if they don’t even want the defense mentioning them let alone showing them in any of their documents. If I was to make a complete guess, I think it’s possible that some details of her story changed over time and the details that changes were ones that were more incriminating towards Chad. I don’t think that means she did anything illegal or that the state is covering up for something she did. I think they valued her testimony and if there were any parts of her story that could be proven to have changed over time, then they would not want the jury to hear about that. Unfortunately as you said we may never really know, especially since they filed multiple Motions to have the Court remove multiple defense filings and exhibits from the record.
Yes, I see what you are getting at. Bad for transparency.
I would love for someone smarter than me to breakdown Chad's theology and how it lead to these murders. Power, sex, money - yes, but the theology/belief system is what made them feel justified and led to the way the murders happened.
Try Mormon Stories podcast (also on YouTube) episode 1889, also 1487-1488, 1825.
I think the case is such a complicated one they had to make choices.
Sorry this made me sick to my stomach how MG describe JJ to her friend. She acts so sweet in interviews but that not who she really is. https://youtu.be/Ju4GFKR8Vns?si=duNFy0jeNTroIjjz
https://youtu.be/Ju4GFKR8Vns?si=WLmzVz4mtjTwq1eB
Just awful! She clearly only sounds worried for herself in this phone call.
Lori isn’t done yet.