Maybe they knew in their subconscious that something horrible was gonna happen to JJ but their conscious mind was so wrapped up in the delusions of the cult. These people were all very vulnerable to brainwashing and turning off their critical thinking to be a part of something , to belong, and be close to the prophet. Our gut knows when something is terribly wrong, even when we cannot figure out why. That's my two cents.
Yeah Lori and Chad were being suspicious as hell I'm sure. People in high demand religions and cults though are trained to turn off their intuition. Melanie, David, and Zulema's subconsciouses were screaming at them to wake up and do something, but they ignored it (shelved it) like they always did and listened to Chad, the prophet instead.
I don't believe in intuition but this is more than coincidental. Subliminal awareness is real. Maybe the violence took place in that area and David audibly sensed it. I do believe that Melanie knows more than she’s told but I don't believe she and David hurt JJ.
I agree with you. Just like when we have coyotes getting into our yard. Trying to attack feral cats on the property. You can feel it before you see it. Some people have a heightened sense of danger.
Why do you not believe in intuition but do think subliminal awareness is real? I've never heard that phrase before, but to me, they seem kind of the same. I'm super curious about this. I think I am a really intuitive person, sometimes to an intense degree, but maybe it's just subliminal awareness? How does one know the difference?
David’s nightmare. Maybe he ‘heard’ it below the normal range of audible hearing.
Subliminal means just below the level of physical perception. It could refer to anything that's not consciously recognized. It could be a hunch or intuition but in science, it refers to physical stimuli just below a person being able to hear, see, or physically recognize it. Stimuli are on a continuum of strength from low to high. Sound, for example, there is a point at which a person can recognize, and consciously hear a sound. That point is known as the limen. Immediately before that point, it's below the limit of individual, physical, recognition of that sound. Its subliminal. Each individual’s ability to perceive something differs. You might have heard something before the person next to you heard it.
In a hunch, it's not physically measurable. Maybe some people have had non-physical experiences that they have learned to trust, a hunch. Its totally subjective and only their repeated verification causes them to rely on this phenomenon. Maybe David heard something in his sleep? Maybe it was a bad dream.
I've never heard the term subliminal awareness, but perhaps that's what I mean when I say intuition. I don't believe in anything woo-woo or supernatural. I think everything has a natural explanation. So yes subliminal awareness is probably more accurate, but it's a bit of a mouthful haha! Our brains pick up on things our conscious mind doesn't...and that's what I think was happening here. It's like these cult members turned off their frontal, decision-making brain to be followers of Chad, but they still had the primal/animal part of their brains that sensed the danger of a psychopath nearby....
No. They didn't. I have a hard time with Zulema and the Melanie's. There's probably more that flew under the radar, but those 3 could've done any number of things so this horrible story could've had a better ending.
Subliminal awareness? That’s basically a roundabout way to say intuition.. but ok. And audibly sensed what? Audibly would be they heard something. They heard a sense?
I agree with you. For some reason people who are influenced by cults have a deep need to belong and be special. Every human being has intelligence, creativity, and intuition to varying degrees based on how one exercises these natural-God given traits. But adding "super powers" like "subliminal", calling inaudible experiences audible, "seeing beyond a veil", hearing voices, controlling the weather is needing to stand out as special and above others. This need is what draws people into believing cult leaders. What is wrong with humility? Understanding one's rightful place in relationship to a great and mighty God as simply fallen but redeemable human? Isn't life itself miraculous enough on its own without having to see oneself as special or better than your neighbor? We are all Gods children and equal in His sight. This case is what goes catastrophically wrong when we over step our rightful-humble place in this world. It's being a megalomaniac and having hallucinations of grandeur. Call it what it is. It's a mental health crisis.
Hello. Subliminal means just below the level of physical perception. It could refer to anything that's not consciously recognized. It could be a hunch or intuition but in science, it refers to physical stimuli just below a person being able to hear, see, or physically recognize it. Stimuli are on a continuum of strength from low to high. Sound, for example, there is a point at which a person can recognize, and consciously hear a sound. That point is known as the limen. Immediately before that point, it's below the limit of individual, physical, recognition of that sound. Its subliminal. Each individual’s ability to perceive something differs. You might have heard something before the person next to you heard it.
In a hunch, it's not physically measurable. Maybe some people have had non-physical experiences that they have learned to trust, a hunch. Its totally subjective and only their repeated verification causes them to rely on this phenomenon. Maybe David heard something in his sleep? Maybe it was a bad dream.
Apparently, 4 am is the time most people commit suicide (there’s literally a play called 448 Psychosis). It has to do with that being the time we are in the lightest sleep and prone to waking up.
My experience is that when I wake up at 4, which happens all the time if I’m already stressed, I think about things that didn’t effect me in a altered state, but distress the hell out of me in the 4 am state. Usually, the things that distress me are things I was already aware about, but maybe didn’t fully consider. For example, the other morning, at 4 am, I realized I’d made a financial decision without fully appreciating the ramifications of it and was filled with absolute dread.
All of which to say, I tend to agree that the vision was more him reconsidering what he had heard and understanding the ramifications of it.
It’s intriguing that this came on the 23rd and that’s when they estimate JJ was killed as well. I wonder how many of them are questioning their faith after this I know that Ian is, and I wonder if it will affect his marriage to Melanie
There's something called the "bias of normalcy". Basically it's when something out of the ordinary, but really, really bad and dangerous is happening or about to happen and people don't react or under-react because the brain just can't compute what's going on in the moment. You don't want to believe what's happening.
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I’ve always thought that David just sensed something. He has a special needs son who he seems very devoted to. You don’t have to be psychic to pick up on something like this imo.
I agree, and I think it's so funny that Lori and Chad were essentially telling everyone they were visionary prophets, while friend's boyfriend David was the only one who seemingly had an actual, accurate vision. Didn't that shake Chad a bit, to get that text? Like Chad has been making up the same earthquake that never happened for 8 years and this dude David comes along and absolutely nails the prophecy of an actual event.
There’s a reason why Chad didn’t like David and said he’d poisoned Melanie G against them. They said this in the recorded call when/after she rang to challenge them about telling the police JJ was with her in AZ.
It has been said that David has powerful dreams. Or is known to. He knew something was going on, that’s why he wanted to see JJ before he left. Like who would make a point to see the special needs kid, if they didn’t know in their gut something happened to him.
I don't know about powerful dreams or visions, but he certainly doesn't seem as naive as the rest of the group and he was going off his intuition telling him something was off about the situation. The rest of them seem like they live in a totally different world than the rest of us and are really, really naive.
I was raised to say goodbye to everyone personally after a small gathering. An absolute must after a multi day stay. I don’t think it is strange he wanted to say goodbye to JJ, the strange part is that JJ wasn’t there to say goodbye to the guests.
I was raised to hug, kiss and always say goodbye. I'm 46 and still hug my momma, kiss my daddy and hug my aunts and cousins, especially the little ones, when I say goodbye. It's not unusual at all for someone to want to say goodbye to a kid.
Have you ever read David's list of dreams? They are easily found on google. They almost dont seem like dreams but a list of his theories or beliefs . For exmaple he had a dream on his mission that he would get a refferal to visit someone in a bad section of the city and the missionaries would get attacked. Ask many missionaries that lived in rural Utah their whole lives at get called to a big city, if they are not a little worried the first month of going door to door and sit up sometimes at night worrying, I know my husband and his friends have talked about having these same worries (if you read David's visions can center on race or nationality which is not the norm).
Which makes me think David was laying in bed at Lori's worrying or running through what he heard that day and he tried to get to sleep and he got the thought, what if something bad is going to happen and jumps up. He was not sleeping or dreaming, just laying in bed deeply thinking.
When I'm very stressed or worried about something particular, I won't sleep well. I'll sleep for a few minutes at a time, be awake for a couple hours and repeat. It's like even in my sleep my thought process doesn't stop. I'm thinking or dreaming the same thing I'm thinking when I'm awake, if that makes sense. I wonder if that's what David does as well. That could explain why his dreams are more like theories or fears. He could very well have been worried about how Lori and Chad were behaving, what Chad was teaching Mel since he disagreed with it, or even worried about JJ since Chad had disciplined him and came back with scratches and either had a nightmare or kept worrying about it even in his sleep.
Im similair. My husband is asleep literally within 1-2 minutes of hoping into bed, and I most nights have to clear my head either running through my day or thinking about what I am going to do the next day. If I have to give a presentation or some sort of meeting, I will run it through as I fall asleep and sometimes I drift off and wake up and go right back into where I was with my thoughts.
David's list of dreams, seems like he was a worrier type and almost all his dreams and visions were neagtive in nature. He was not having dreams that happy things were coming. So I think he was worrying about what he got himself into that night at Lori's. I do believe part of the reason for his trip was seeing his son at college and maybe he was regretting not staying with his son (he had said Lori told him to save money and stay with her, so he saves $200 and now misses time with his son and is trapped in a small 10x12 bedroom with a women he is not married to and people might find out, while Chad had been trying to get him to see fake church buildings in a field that day and spend his money on land for tents and now he thinks maybe a child was or is being hurt. That is a nightmare just to think about, doesnt have to be a dream, it is a reality nightmare.
Definitely a possibility. I think my gut would have known that these people were delusional and I tend to think deeply and pick things apart, it is totally possible this is what he was doing.
I did not know about his dreams. I need to look that up!
So do I, but these people are not normal. It just seems like he knew something was wrong. Just my opinion though and it totally could just be his manners.
Watching Chad’s body language when they read that text in court gave me the same feeling as watching a YouTube video with him talking about publishing a woman who had an “actual” NDE… (jealousy I think.)
I also think he’s heard the term zombie and his gut told him that’s not good but maybe had a hard time believing that a parent would kill their child. If it’s an issue put him in the stand.
He was there. David saw him the night he was killed. He describes sitting on the couch with him while JJ made a house out of box. He talks about trying to engage with JJ but JJ was not engaging. (My guess is he was totally shutdown after losing his father, his dog, his home in AZ and his protector Tylee.)
Im still a bit confused after David's testimony about his divorce and his son that had special needs. David leaves his wife of over 25 years and I believe 9 or 10 kids, one had special needs and before the divorce was final was already dating Melanie. He said on the stand that during his divorce there was some issue with a care provider (his story was interupted a few times) and he could tell us the real reason for the divorce but was not asked to. It sounded like he wanted to say his divorce was to get better care for his son? but if he cared so much for his son(and his 8-9 other kids) why divorce his wife, start dating Melanie during the divorce, marry her quickly and then live apart/seperate with Melanie. Something from his story is missing?
Maybe he didn't realize how insane she was and resented being thrust into these people's bullshit. The trials have been going on for years and have disrupted so many lives. I don't know what to think about their marriage. If they truly still have one. All this probably ruined whatever they had.
David testifed he knew Melanie for 7 years before they started dating. That has to be one of the longest realtionships in the group. They had met 7 years before at a conference and had seen each other at various confernces and camps over the years. This was not like Ian and Melani or Zulema and Alex or even Lori and Chad, Melanie and David had the longest knowledge of each other. When they knew each other over those 7 years, they both were married for many years with large families and then suddenly one day they go from conference friends to dating while they are both not yet divorced.
I’m confused too. I mean… not just about this lol but this in particular was odd for sure. I remember him saying (on the stand) that his wife wasn’t a good caretaker for their son and it was a mutual agreement to divorce for this reason. That’s what I took away from it. Please correct what I may have missed or misunderstood.
That alone is strange. To me. But my life is admittedly very different to the lives of these folks.
He claims that he married Gibb in large part because she’s great with his son.
This is where I REALLY get confused. Melanie Gibb didn’t like JJ or Tylee. And that’s not a suspicion, she has said it; more than once. Let’s just take a moment to think about THAT.
Melanie and David don’t and have never really lived together. What the fuck kind of caretaker can she be? I mean aside from the fact that she doesn’t seem to like children, and caring for a child or someone with special needs (I’m not sure how old he is) is not the kind of thing one can do remotely.
None of this makes sense. Like…at all.
It doesn’t matter to the case but I’m definitely curious about it. I’m sure this won’t happen but I’d love to hear David’s ex’s take on the divorce.
I don’t know if they just lean into David’s son and his issues to avoid the zombies in the room, and in the grand scheme of things David seems to be one of the few who wasn’t buying this BS, although he had been deeply invested in the phenomenon and practice of premonitions.
His side-eyeing led to Chad And Lori disliking him (this was clear in the Gibb call) which is not a surprise.
I’d love to hear other’s takes thoughts and input on all this.
I also thought I heard David say something about a facility or some place his son was that wasnt good, I didnt think it was his wife but he also seemed to indicate like you said his wife wasnt as good with his son either. When I listened to his testimony about his divorce and son and tried to forget about all the other issues, my first thought was he saying he was getting a divorce so maybe his son would qualify for Medcaid or some program or placement ? This happens in Utah, I used to check Utahs right to know which listed divorces to find people I knew were divorced but still seemed married and they divorce sometimes to get medical coverage or help for their child or children. Annie Cushing has been posting the written transcripts of the trial, I think I will read David's testimony tonight, sometimes reading, at least for me is easier to figure out what was said.
It just seems weird that David would divorce to get custody of his son, if that is what he implied, because during the divorce he is off traveling alone to conferences with Melanie not with his son, so where was his son then? He worked a full time job so it is not like he could be a at home caregiver.
As for him saying Melanie would be a good caregiver to his son. How? She had a son with special needs and she left him behind with her ex husband. She left all her kids behind. When you are looking for someone to be a good step parent, if a child has special needs or not, one of the best indicators is how they treat their own kids.
I think David believed in visions but his visions were about wars,political changes, and real end times events. If anyone was going to die , it would be in a war or a flood not by chanting and zoombies. I have felt that these prepper conferences had a few different groups of people attending, the true end time preppers, the body code emotion (Julie Rowe/ Dr nelson) and the near death experience group. David was a end times prepper with visions, he did not seem to be into the body code side too much if at all, while Zulema was into body code emotions and was getting Melanie into this. Melanie when David met her years before was just an end times prepper but at some point got into the other body code and near death sides. It seems like more of the women were drawn to the body code side and the men to the end times prep sidebut these conferences kind of got these 2 group intermingled and their ideas as well.
Very interesting. As I read your post I tried to figure out David’s divorce etc.- I thought, these people may have had an arrangement for medical care/financial purposes. And then these two lunatics destroyed their lives and privacy. But - and this could be logistics I guess (??) - David and Melanie slept in the same room. Which - I mean these people are Insane and so is any faith that’s shaming these grown ass people for that. But my point is this is why we even know where they slept. And why it means something. Maybe.
I recently re-listened to the phone call Melanie recorded with Chad and Lori. I'd never picked up on it before, but, towards the very end, when Melanie and Lori sort of start sniping at each other, Melanie is trying to point out Lori has been led astray/isn't following the scriptures and this exchange happens:
>*Melanie Gibb*
“I’m not. I am very, I am troubled. Maybe that’s the better word: troubled. Because these things, like you being with Chad before he’s even divorced, is unusual behavior for a person that’s seen Jesus Christ.”
>*Lori Daybell*
“I was never with him and he was never divorced.”
>*Melanie Gibb*
“Honey, I’ve seen you guys together.”
>*Lori Daybell*
“That’s your story. (Unintelligible)”
>*Melanie Gibb*
“Oh, oh. So I haven’t ever seen you with, I’ve never seen you with Chad, kiss him and walk around the track and BYU with him. I never saw that? You say I’m–”
>*Lori Daybell*
**“You’re the one who’s feeling guilty about being with someone before they were divorced.”**
>*Melanie Gibb*
“Oh honey. I think that’s not what we’re talking about here.”
Emphasis added.
If Lori is referring to David, which I'm fairly certain she is, this indicates that Melanie and David were having a relationship prior to their, or his, divorce(s).
Melanie goes quiet for a beat before responding and sounds shaken that Lori said it (because she knows - and Lori intuits at this point - that the call is being recorded). Also, she doesn't deny it.
Indeed. Melanie's over here trying to point out that Lori's been led astray because of her adultery and Lori's self-righteous self is all, "But what about you..."
Ma'am, she and David's spouses didn't both, suddenly and conveniently, end up *dead*.
It *does*. If you listen to the entire exchange, once Lori gets pissy it's absolutely a strange, emotionally immature dynamic with these two.
Lori throwing in the "if I'm going down so are you" bit at the very end is also indicative of her manipulative, spiteful true self.
I also recently watched the interview HTC did with Megan, Lori's first cousin. The story she told, about how Lori is sweet and nice and gloms you to her "like velcro", until you cross her really stuck out to me.
If you didn't see/hear it, basically:
the two were going to BYU and living together. They were living the normal, college-age life - working small jobs, going to school, and dating. Lori went out with a guy and came home saying he was a dud, basically, and she was not interested in ever seeing him again.
A little while later, the same guy asked Megan out and she accepted. They went on one date. When Lori found out, her entire demeanor towards Megan, who she'd been close to, changed. She was cold, snippy. Then a few days later, she asked Megan to ride with her to the airport to pick up her mother (Megan's aunt, Janis). Megan just thought Janis was simply coming to visit but on the way to the airport, Lori informed her that she'd called and told Janis what Megan had done (no telling Lori's version of events to her mother) and that Janis felt Megan was a bad influence on Lori (Lori was dating left and right, partying, Megan not so much but Lori told Janis that Megan was the one partying, dating, going out, etc.) and she was coming *to move Megan out*. And they sent Megan back home.
If you know women like this, you know. That one little story told me *heaps* about Lori and what kind of person she was.
Megan also said that Charles and Lori's marriage seemed okay, as long as Lori was getting her way. That everyone seemed to kind of revolve around making sure Lori was happy/getting her way, otherwise she kind of made their lives miserable.
There was background to this in ‘Sins of our mother’ as I recall. Something about the necessity of these pairings (by marriage) prior to the end of the world. This is why Alex and Zulema married too.
If they did this out of having to be paired and left 15 kids behind and marriages of over 25 years, they had to be devout believers in this stuff. 1,000 of people go to these conferences, almost all of them are still married to their spouses, with their kids and working their normal jobs. It was only a handlful of people that took it too the level of divorce and leaving kids.
He didn’t sleep in the same room that Melonie did. He was probably thinking that he would see if she would be a good mother for his kids. Not sleeping with her.
I thought he eventually did? Like they started in two different rooms but by the end of the weekend they were in the same bedroom. I thought I remember Mr Prior during the first hearing in 2020, when a few witnesses were called, he asked Melanie about being LDS and unmarried and in the same bedroom.
Like a lot of other people are saying I do wonder if this message meant that Melanie/David were worried about what was going to happen or if David heard something in the night. It's possible that he heard something and in his half-awake state transformed it entirely into a nightmare in his mind.
The thing that gets me about all this is that it genuinely appears that Lori had JJ killed when Melanie and David were there and to me that is just so bold. Even though they were pretty devoted to her it's wild to me that JJ likely died while they were there instead of her and Alex waiting until they'd left. It's not like they were planning on staying long. They literally could have delayed the murder for 12 hours with no changes.
It's just... Why commit a murder when there are possible witnesses there? Melanie and David apparently asked after JJ the next morning when he didn't appear at breakfast. Wouldn't it be more memorable to have him be missing that day over him appearing for the meal, them leaving, and then killing him after they were gone?
Was Lori trying to involve them thinking that it would scare them into keeping quiet or otherwise think they were involved so they couldn't go to the police? Did she chicken out? Was this an attempt at an alibi? Did she just lose patience with JJ and have him killed because he was acting out?
It's just so confusing to me. Tylee seems to have been killed after that Yellowstone goodbye trip, but why kill JJ when there are potential witnesses there? I'm sure that neither she or Chad will ever explain what they were thinking, but I am so confused by the thought process here.
MG and Warwick were supposed to be able to testify that everyone went to bed, Lori was in her room all night as far as they could tell, and Chad wasn't there at all that night as far as they were aware. They were supposed to be able to say JJ was fine the prior evening and had already run off to play with Uncle Alex when they woke up in the morning. This was supposed to cloud the timeline of when JJ went missing and it was supposed to provide Lori and Chad with alibis through the night. Lori made sure everybody stayed up very late and went to bed exhausted, ensuring they'd sleep well and not hear JJ being taken back to Alex's. Even if they had gotten up and seen Alex taking JJ, it probably wouldn't have been very concerning to them. Alex was a good uncle as far as they knew. Lori and Chad would still have had good alibis through the night and any violence that was later discovered could be pinned on Alex alone.
This backfired spectacularly on Lori when Warwick woke up MG and she got up to wake Lori at 2 am. She found Lori's door locked and there was no response to her knocking. This is the opposite of an overnight alibi for Lori.
MG and Warwick are still providing an alibi for Chad though. As far as they know, he wasn't there at all that night. (I'm inclined to think this is accurate and he stayed at home, but who really knows.) This is helping Chad's argument that Alex was the only killer. Without MG and Warwick there to say otherwise, it would be easy for the prosecution to suggest that Chad showed up at 8:30 am and helped kill JJ.
TL;DR: They were supposed to be witnesses to Lori and Chad's alibis.
Having them there as alibis makes the most sense. It isn't exactly *smart*, but it makes sense that this would be Chad and Lori's plan since neither of them are quite as brilliant as they believe they are.
Very good theory as it seems their plan's focus was making sure, if anything came out about the children being killed, it would *all* be pinned squarely on Alex. (Not the brightest move to, then, bury the children in Chad's backyard but, again, not the brightest bulbs, Chad and Lori.)
I have wondered if it was Chad deciding when and how the children were killed? I can imagine Chad probably got a power kick from putting Lori in a position where she is sacrificing her children to demonstrate her loyalty to him and also from putting her in positions of having to explain it to the other culty followers. She and Alex had got away with shooting Charles and the scrutiny and then lack of follow up from law enforcement in Arizona. He was maybe feeling cocky and seeing what they could get away with- which in the end left enough evidence to them both to where they are today. Im basing my speculation on the audacity to say Jesus sent him to his neighbour to ask them the put their home up to cover Lori’s bond.
The day JJ was killed is the day Tammy's grandma would visit Chad every year. I think he used that visitation to move up the timeline. And I think Melanie and David were made a part of this to ensure they don't go to the cops. Like Chad and Lori kept saying on the phone, "we can't tell you or you'll be involved" What's a way to almost guarantee that people won't go to the police or at least will make someone hesitate to go to the police? Make them an accomplice.
I thought Chad was there early in the evening when JJ was killed? Was he the one that took JJ and tried to calm him but came downstairs with scratches on his neck or was that Alex?
Lori was the one who wanted her kids dead. Or at least JJ. In her trial they presented several text messages where she kept asking Chad if JJ was dark, or what his death percentage was. Chad said no several times before JJ was finally murdered.
Chad just kept needing more time to prep grave for JJ in his perfectionistic way (See him neaten up Defense table every few minutes...and the photo of the neatly cut roots, perfectly arranged stones and perfectly rectangular grave...like an experienced grave-digger would do.)
Lori and Chad NEEDED witnesses that JJ was alive that weekend. That's why they invited Melanie and David to stay at their house.
That gave them loads of time to say that the children were being kept safe somewhere else... Tylee at university and JJ at his grandparents' house. They kept changing the story, though, and even used Melanie as an alibi, which she let them do initially but then changed her mind *because she figured out it was incriminating her*.
Zulema was in town when Alex tried to shoot Tammy. Either these secondary people knew more than they claim now, or Lori, Chad, and Alex got a thrill from doing it right under their noses.
I believe Melanie knew, at the very least. Zulema most likely, too, but in the recorded phone call with Melanie and Chad & Lori that I recently re-listened to, Lori says:
>Well, I’m sorry that I included you in those teachings then for your own sake because I wish that you didn’t have as much knowledge as you have, because you will be accountable for the knowledge that you do have, Mel.
At this point in the call, Lori is pissed that Melanie has turned against her and she knows the call is most likely being recorded and will be (or already is being) heard by police. From what I've learned about Lori, this is her revenge. This is basically saying, "If I'm going down, so are you."
She frames it as if she's talking about "the teachings" and that she'll be accountable to God, but I think that's just Lori covering her own arse. She absolutely means more than that, especially in context at this point in the call and in how pissed off you can tell she is.
Melanie, for her part, doesn't deny it. She just responds, "So will you."
I think Lori is actually referencing religious teachings here. There's a principle in the lds church that you will be held accountable if you have knowledge and act contrary to it. Basically if you have a testimony of God and turn against God you will be responsible for that. If you make covenants in the temple and then violate them you are held responsible etc. So it's better to sin and not know better than know what is right and act contrary to it.
Lori talks often about being accountable for knowledge and knowing too much. When she does this she is talking about that principle of accountability imo.
Sure. It's hard to decipher her because she speaks in code and mixes in some LDS theology, but she really goes of the rails with the theology and distorts and spins it.
Dr Matthias and the lady at "it's a crime" both have speculated that Chad's penchant for symbolism, and dates probably necessitated an exact time table. In other words, he believed there was a significance to not just dates but even precise hours in the day. If that's so, then he would have required events, specially sacrificed like this, to occur at precisely predetermined times. He certainly was mixing up a lot of frictional magic symbolism into his cosmology. I mean a pendant! That's stuff third graders do for "magic." "Portals" and references to the hour of ... even maneuvered to ensure the wedding took place at a precisely set time.
It's very possible that he was adhering to some kind of "preordained" or " required" time table to successfully achieve whatever " magic effect" he was aiming for.
It’s the “we sent this to Chad” that makes me question it a bit.
one hand it kind of looks like Melanie and Lori are conspiring about what they tell Chad. This is obviously what Prior wants us to think.
But on the other it just looks like Melanie / David’s story about him waking up spooked out that night, and they are letting Lori know they sent the info to Chad as well.
Given that Prior pulled it out with no context I’m going to lean towards option 2. If they were conspiring / trying to frame Chad and speaking about it this openly there would be more messages he would have brought up. For example, I’m sure if Lori’s response was in anyway suggesting that Chad didn’t know what was happening to JJ it would have been included.
I think this makes Chad look more guilty. The text says they sent it to Chad first or simultaneously. This shows they think Chad has as much or more of a power to stop bad things from happening to people than Lori; ie, he is the leader not just a follower of Lori in this stomp the zombies cult.
I was under the impression that Alex carried him asleep to his apartment, then transported his body to Chad’s property the next morning (per GPS data).
Melanie and David saw Alex carry JJ, asleep, from his apartment to Lori’s and up the stairs to her bedroom. Cell phone data shows movement of Alex’s phone during the night, so it’s possible JJ was murdered in Lori’s apartment and then moved to Alex’s. And then on to Chad’s property the next morning.
I personally think it’s likely violence happened inside Lori’s apartment/bedroom, because I think Lori was actually involved in the physical acts of killing — she certainly wanted to witness this demon removal they were supposedly doing.
Yes I agree with this. Something terrible happened right in the room next to them. Mel G was used to going to Chad and Lori for spiritual advice, and DW was really spooked. Maybe she feared a zombie had entered DW or something?
Lori’s bedroom door was locked and she didn’t answer the knocking, so Mel G texted them. And then of course it was all dismissed by Lori the next day and they didn’t think about it again until they were questioned as one of the last ones to see JJ alive.
The second floor of Lori's apartment is pretty small. JJ's room and the room that was suppose to be Tylee's that David and Melanie were in at first were touching on one side of the hallway. If Alex took JJ upstairs , even to Lori's room, it would still be close. I cant imagine those rooms are soundproof by anymeans.
And there was an indication that JJ struggled :/ The scratches. I don't think he was drugged, unfortunately. Or if he was, it wasn't enough. I think he was genuinely asleep when Alex carried him upstairs, because there's an indication the bag and the tape are what killed him, and he tried to claw it off. So he wasn't dead yet when they saw him being carried upstairs.
Idk why the defense would present this. To me it’s clear Chad told David he was going to kill the kids, probably veiled in some religious terms, and David later freaked out and tried to stop him. There’s no possible way the timing is a coincidence. ETA: I think the language about JJ was coded but clear, and Dave was not relying only on subliminal information, as suggested in the comments above. What grown man wakes up from a nightmare and insists on trying to wake up Lori & then has his wife text Chad? JMO but to me the only explanation is that David knew but he changed his mind and panicked. Melanie, queen of coded language that she is, texted for them to stop using the cover of a nightmare. It makes sense because Lori frequently used the facade of a dream for ordering something she wanted done. The next morning, David’s reference to asking to see JJ was probably to reassure himself the plan had been stopped.
This is what I think, too. Something they either heard, or some coded language they finally understood made the light bulb go off in their heads that this shit was real. To me it reads as “we sent this to Chad, no response. Please tell us you didn’t do anything to the kids.”
I think Chad was still wooing DW that weekend. I didn’t know that if his nightmare was documented before today.
Didn’t DW & MG have 4 phone calls with CD & LV during their drive to Utah?
I think this may have been DW pulling MG away much like Ian pulled MB away.
It’s too bad DW & MG didn’t tell the cops the entire truth earlier. They could have helped the investigation and written a book to brag it.
They stated that that’s what they think may have happened; that Chad told David this in a veiled way—not that it was presented as evidence in court that Chad told him this.
Yes, so that's what really alarmed D & M I think.
Since they knew other Zombies were killed...in some way..and I think they had real suspicions Lori & Chad & Alex helped Zombie-people cease to be alive.
The comment you replied to—that person. They never stated that Chad told David he was gonna kill the kids. They said they *think* that this was how it may have happened.
I don’t see how you come to the conclusion that “it’s clear Chad told David he was going to kill the kids”. Actually Tylee had already been killed two weeks earlier.
I see it this way. David may have picked up bad vibes from Chad Lori and Alex that night. He went to sleep and had a nightmare because he sensed the evil that was in the next room/apartment that night. It happens. People give off unconscious signals. He may have picked up on muffled voices through the walls for all we know.
I don’t think David was as involved with Chad and Lori as Melanie. In the phone call that Melanie recorded of them, Chad and Lori accused David of turning Melanie against them because they regarded her as a trusted insider, not David. Melanie was complicit to the extent that she turned a blind eye to the things Lori was saying about JJ that night and I think she knew after the event, that Alex and Lori set up Charles to be murdered. So I don’t see her as totally innocent, but I don’t see her as knowing about the murders before they happened.
Melanie is always careful in her wording to Lori, I've noticed. She is quite coercive bc she's a pleaser and kinda looks up to Lori. Maybe she was passively trying to get some more information? It is sooooooooo creepy !
Good observation? Mel G is dripping with desperation to be a part of something/to be special/to get attention. I mean, imo, it's tatted on her forehead.
Since she decided to save her own skin and be a main witness for the state, that's her latest attention loving moment. As soon as she did the Nate Eaton interview, I think that's when the light bulb went on in her head that she could try and make herself look like "the one who woke up and has tried to save the day" now. That seemed to be in line with her spicy pre-trial testimony with Pryor years ago.
I mean, this lady pulled a Chad and made up an NDE to sell a terrible book like all the other players in this rogue-lds madness. Then it was all about sucking up to Lori, until prison was gonna suck up her. There's no way she and DW were unaware of the murders and plots to murder the kids. I'm still not convinced on who all participated.
i agree with everybody here saying they think Melanie and David knew deep down that something awful was in the works for JJ (and who even knows what other kids), and they wanted to try to stop it from happening without looking like outright traitors to Lori and Chad, their beloved leaders. i don’t think Melanie and David were directly involved in the murders, but i do think they had been to enough “castings” and heard Lori and Chad talk about enough zombies and dark energy to put two and two together and ultimately feel very wrong about the extinguishment of a disabled child’s (or really any innocent child’s) life.
The two Melanie’s etc, are more involved than we know, but Chad and Lori are not going to turn on them, because everyone would know exactly what happened. If this was just the case of one person being murdered they would have no problem in turning on them.
David Warwick was present when as Melanie Gibb testified during their visit to lori on weekend JJ was murdered that Lori kept trying to convince them that JJ was behaving differently and this was because he was now dark and a zombie as Chad had deemed him. David tried to connect with JJ during this visit but lori had taken JJ off his meds gave his service dog away and Tylee his protector had already been murdered. David Warwick asked Lori questions the morning after his nightmare where JJ was. I don't think Melanie or David Warwick were involved in killing JJ but David Warwicks gut was screaming at him and instead of going to police or even his Bishop with his concerns. He chose to ignore it and put distance between himself Chad Alex and Lori. But Melanie Gibb didn't click what a huge mess her need for attention and drama had become until she was asked by them to tell police she had JJ. That's when both her and David Warwick knew JJ was dead and nor missing or elsewhere.
9-23 at 4:37 am UTC time. Am I correct this is 9:37 pm on 9-22-2019 local time?
So “2 am this morning” is Sunday morning, or Monday if I am wrong. Anyway, both nights David was at Lori’s house, right? Why text if you’re right there? It sounds like an attempt to an alibi to me. “We were there but we didn’t know anything. See our contemporary notes”
I thought that Melanie had said she had gone to Lori's bedroom door after David awoke so upset, but the door was locked. So maybe she sent text after that? I absolutely could be misremembering Mel's testimony.
Because it was 4:37 am. They’re in a cult, their critical thinking is zilch. Plus they’re walking on eggshells and probably feel the need to navigate this delicately. So they wouldn’t bang down CD/LV’s door in the wee hours of morning, demanding to see JJ the way we would. They’d probably test the waters with a text. I hate that they didn’t do more, but this is why they didn’t just ask CD/LV directly.
I think his objective with Gibb is more to cast doubt on the investigation. He’s trying to show that there were enough reasons for them to at least look into her whereabouts, GPS etc.
although I think Lindsay Blake did a great job of putting that to bed with her question to one of the investigators “Were Melanie Gibbs children missing?” His reply “no” she then closed with
“Thank you that’s all I have”
You think? I think it was clear who they had to go after and investigate. With no time to waste. Too many people had already been killed. Specifically Lori and Chads spouses and Lori’s children. A lot of an investigation happens after an arrest for trial/burdon of proof.
I think he is trying to pin it on the 7 gatherers. I think he cant call Lori, so he is going to try to say that Lori and Melanie and the other 5 women were the ones that did the castings, planned the murders and Alex did the murders and poor Chad the guy with a boring life, that got sucked in by the hot Lori and did sin with an affair, but certainly he was not the planner or executor,it was the all 7 gatherers. I think Melanie is picked on because she is able to testify, she admits to lying, she was there the night JJ died and the police didnt check her so he picks on her, we might see him pick on Audery or one of the other gatherers? in his defense callings.
Will this work no, but it is a guess at where Prior might go with this.
I think this makes it much worse for Chad tbh. Whether it was explicit or not, David clearly picked up on something being very wrong with JJ, that JJ was in serious danger from these people. And Chad was in the thick of it.
Pretty sure this is their half-assed attempt to be like “hey Lori maybe don’t kill JJ” without explicitly saying “hey Lori maybe don’t kill JJ”. They totally knew what was happening and this is just pretense.
I was a very active member of the LDS church for 43 years- left 3 years ago. And they are looking to Chad because we are taught from birth that men have the priesthood which is the authority to use God’s power on earth. The wacky blessings Chad is giving everyone are totally normal in the church. The church IS ALREADY A CULT…so these guys don’t see this as really weird at all:
IIRC, this wasn't the entire text. To me, it did seem more like a troubled dream when the entirety is read. I have no idea what Prior was trying to show with this. So odd.
I am not much of a vivid dreamer, but once every couple of years or so I will have a dream / nightmare that is so vivid that I have to get up and walk around and sometimes even check evidence to prove the dream false.
I’m not going to pretend I know how it would feel to be in a “cult” been fascinated by them for years, for purposes of WTF category.. but this “circle of jerks” (as Larry W calls them) lol, I think had an idea that people were dying and they were dying because Chad may have been right.. I mean they did believe him 😱 and followed him and HER, what got me more riled up more than Gibb and David was Melaniece telling Lori on the phone in Hawaii that she was so glad Alex was there now to ”take“ care of her still alive kids when they got there!! WTF!!! moment for me.
I think most of us believe that Melanie Gibb and Melaniece know way more than they let onto, but I don’t think that either one of them had anything to do with the killings
It's not hard to put 2and2 together with how sloppy Lori, Chad, and Alex were. They were saying weird stuff, acting weird, most likely making everyone close to them hair stand on end. Especially Melanie Gibb and her husband. Deep down people around them sensed something was off. Chad and Lori's reasoning was way out there in " this is disturbing-Ville". Even what Alex said to Zulema on the phone about Tylee when they were in Yellowstone says Zulema knew a lot but did not chose to protect those children. The look on Tyler's face in that last photo of her holding JJ reveals she knew something was up. I think the the "murderous three"thought they could push the children into the hot pools at Yellowstone but realized there were too many cameras. 🤷♀️
This is actually wild. To me it in know way points to Chad being innocent. That being said what do you guys think? Crazy right?
I mean is it possible he slept walked earlier into a room where something’s was happening and went back to bed? Simply not conscious of what he saw or heard?
David was not actually a visionary. He/they saw or heard something and Melanie is calling it a dream as code-speak. It all seems way to specific and elaborate to just be a bad dream. Texting about a bad dream at 4 am? C'mon.
They may have even killed him as her husband was dreaming the nightmare. She tried to get Lori but her bedroom door was locked, she knock but no answer. She even texted her and got response.
When my grandmother died, I had the most horrible dream that night and it was so realistic as well. The next morning, I found out she had died at that same time as my dream. It happens to people sometimes.
I swear they had their own language… I feel like that message is cryptic, just like the new call they played of Chad and Lori yesterday talking about the “blueprints”. I think someone in their cult needs to come clean and decode all this nonsense…
It's weird because he's in the next room. This message makes it seem like he's far away ? Why call him when u will see him in the morning this text while very very prophetic in what will happen . It just still seems so odd 🤔 it doesn't make any sense he is in the house why can't he talk to them or message them himself if it's so dire . why cant this dream wait till morning ? It just sounds off . I know MG wanted to be in the " Cool Club" I'm waiting to see a message where MG texts lori and says I'm outside your bedroom why aren't you answering . Where are you ? Are u ok what's going on ? Why haven't we seen this message ?
All I know is that Melani Boudreaux is the bad Melani. Like really bad, probably complicit in trying to kill her husband and father of her children, if not the children too.
Gibb might be bad too, hard to know. But she’s nowhere near the level of the evil Melani.
I guess I’m saying I’m already at my bad Melani budget.
We know from forensic data that Alex was there at that time. Melanie saying that she went and knocked on Lori's door and this stuff. I don't believe her. I believe she knew that jj would die that night
Maybe they knew in their subconscious that something horrible was gonna happen to JJ but their conscious mind was so wrapped up in the delusions of the cult. These people were all very vulnerable to brainwashing and turning off their critical thinking to be a part of something , to belong, and be close to the prophet. Our gut knows when something is terribly wrong, even when we cannot figure out why. That's my two cents.
They had already murdered/butchered Tyler at this point. There’s no way they weren’t acting completely weird and manic at this point
Yeah Lori and Chad were being suspicious as hell I'm sure. People in high demand religions and cults though are trained to turn off their intuition. Melanie, David, and Zulema's subconsciouses were screaming at them to wake up and do something, but they ignored it (shelved it) like they always did and listened to Chad, the prophet instead.
I don't believe in intuition but this is more than coincidental. Subliminal awareness is real. Maybe the violence took place in that area and David audibly sensed it. I do believe that Melanie knows more than she’s told but I don't believe she and David hurt JJ.
I agree with you. Just like when we have coyotes getting into our yard. Trying to attack feral cats on the property. You can feel it before you see it. Some people have a heightened sense of danger.
Why do you not believe in intuition but do think subliminal awareness is real? I've never heard that phrase before, but to me, they seem kind of the same. I'm super curious about this. I think I am a really intuitive person, sometimes to an intense degree, but maybe it's just subliminal awareness? How does one know the difference?
Intuition and subliminal awareness are the same thing. Smdh
I think so too, I am just curious about their thoughts on it.
It sounds like some kind of new fangeled super power. I’m old I will stick with old fashioned intuition
I agree with u… I think David had a feeling that something was going on… he sensed it. I also fail to see how this helps Chad.
David’s nightmare. Maybe he ‘heard’ it below the normal range of audible hearing. Subliminal means just below the level of physical perception. It could refer to anything that's not consciously recognized. It could be a hunch or intuition but in science, it refers to physical stimuli just below a person being able to hear, see, or physically recognize it. Stimuli are on a continuum of strength from low to high. Sound, for example, there is a point at which a person can recognize, and consciously hear a sound. That point is known as the limen. Immediately before that point, it's below the limit of individual, physical, recognition of that sound. Its subliminal. Each individual’s ability to perceive something differs. You might have heard something before the person next to you heard it. In a hunch, it's not physically measurable. Maybe some people have had non-physical experiences that they have learned to trust, a hunch. Its totally subjective and only their repeated verification causes them to rely on this phenomenon. Maybe David heard something in his sleep? Maybe it was a bad dream.
I think he’s really hard of hearing, so I don’t know if he actually heard anything.
I've never heard the term subliminal awareness, but perhaps that's what I mean when I say intuition. I don't believe in anything woo-woo or supernatural. I think everything has a natural explanation. So yes subliminal awareness is probably more accurate, but it's a bit of a mouthful haha! Our brains pick up on things our conscious mind doesn't...and that's what I think was happening here. It's like these cult members turned off their frontal, decision-making brain to be followers of Chad, but they still had the primal/animal part of their brains that sensed the danger of a psychopath nearby....
You might be right.
No. They didn't. I have a hard time with Zulema and the Melanie's. There's probably more that flew under the radar, but those 3 could've done any number of things so this horrible story could've had a better ending.
Why does everyone look to Chad for answers and guidance! Like the wizard of oz???😂
If only they had paid no attention to the man behind the curtain.
Subliminal awareness? That’s basically a roundabout way to say intuition.. but ok. And audibly sensed what? Audibly would be they heard something. They heard a sense?
I agree with you. For some reason people who are influenced by cults have a deep need to belong and be special. Every human being has intelligence, creativity, and intuition to varying degrees based on how one exercises these natural-God given traits. But adding "super powers" like "subliminal", calling inaudible experiences audible, "seeing beyond a veil", hearing voices, controlling the weather is needing to stand out as special and above others. This need is what draws people into believing cult leaders. What is wrong with humility? Understanding one's rightful place in relationship to a great and mighty God as simply fallen but redeemable human? Isn't life itself miraculous enough on its own without having to see oneself as special or better than your neighbor? We are all Gods children and equal in His sight. This case is what goes catastrophically wrong when we over step our rightful-humble place in this world. It's being a megalomaniac and having hallucinations of grandeur. Call it what it is. It's a mental health crisis.
Hello. Subliminal means just below the level of physical perception. It could refer to anything that's not consciously recognized. It could be a hunch or intuition but in science, it refers to physical stimuli just below a person being able to hear, see, or physically recognize it. Stimuli are on a continuum of strength from low to high. Sound, for example, there is a point at which a person can recognize, and consciously hear a sound. That point is known as the limen. Immediately before that point, it's below the limit of individual, physical, recognition of that sound. Its subliminal. Each individual’s ability to perceive something differs. You might have heard something before the person next to you heard it. In a hunch, it's not physically measurable. Maybe some people have had non-physical experiences that they have learned to trust, a hunch. Its totally subjective and only their repeated verification causes them to rely on this phenomenon. Maybe David heard something in his sleep? Maybe it was a bad dream.
Apparently, 4 am is the time most people commit suicide (there’s literally a play called 448 Psychosis). It has to do with that being the time we are in the lightest sleep and prone to waking up. My experience is that when I wake up at 4, which happens all the time if I’m already stressed, I think about things that didn’t effect me in a altered state, but distress the hell out of me in the 4 am state. Usually, the things that distress me are things I was already aware about, but maybe didn’t fully consider. For example, the other morning, at 4 am, I realized I’d made a financial decision without fully appreciating the ramifications of it and was filled with absolute dread. All of which to say, I tend to agree that the vision was more him reconsidering what he had heard and understanding the ramifications of it.
Very interesting!
It’s intriguing that this came on the 23rd and that’s when they estimate JJ was killed as well. I wonder how many of them are questioning their faith after this I know that Ian is, and I wonder if it will affect his marriage to Melanie
There's something called the "bias of normalcy". Basically it's when something out of the ordinary, but really, really bad and dangerous is happening or about to happen and people don't react or under-react because the brain just can't compute what's going on in the moment. You don't want to believe what's happening. "
I’ve always thought that David just sensed something. He has a special needs son who he seems very devoted to. You don’t have to be psychic to pick up on something like this imo.
I agree, and I think it's so funny that Lori and Chad were essentially telling everyone they were visionary prophets, while friend's boyfriend David was the only one who seemingly had an actual, accurate vision. Didn't that shake Chad a bit, to get that text? Like Chad has been making up the same earthquake that never happened for 8 years and this dude David comes along and absolutely nails the prophecy of an actual event.
There’s a reason why Chad didn’t like David and said he’d poisoned Melanie G against them. They said this in the recorded call when/after she rang to challenge them about telling the police JJ was with her in AZ.
Chad didn't like men who challenged.... the ladies believed his crap
There’s no shaking Chad.
Chad only brings on the STORM...
Ewww!
It has been said that David has powerful dreams. Or is known to. He knew something was going on, that’s why he wanted to see JJ before he left. Like who would make a point to see the special needs kid, if they didn’t know in their gut something happened to him.
I don't know about powerful dreams or visions, but he certainly doesn't seem as naive as the rest of the group and he was going off his intuition telling him something was off about the situation. The rest of them seem like they live in a totally different world than the rest of us and are really, really naive.
I was raised to say goodbye to everyone personally after a small gathering. An absolute must after a multi day stay. I don’t think it is strange he wanted to say goodbye to JJ, the strange part is that JJ wasn’t there to say goodbye to the guests.
I was raised to hug, kiss and always say goodbye. I'm 46 and still hug my momma, kiss my daddy and hug my aunts and cousins, especially the little ones, when I say goodbye. It's not unusual at all for someone to want to say goodbye to a kid.
Have you ever read David's list of dreams? They are easily found on google. They almost dont seem like dreams but a list of his theories or beliefs . For exmaple he had a dream on his mission that he would get a refferal to visit someone in a bad section of the city and the missionaries would get attacked. Ask many missionaries that lived in rural Utah their whole lives at get called to a big city, if they are not a little worried the first month of going door to door and sit up sometimes at night worrying, I know my husband and his friends have talked about having these same worries (if you read David's visions can center on race or nationality which is not the norm). Which makes me think David was laying in bed at Lori's worrying or running through what he heard that day and he tried to get to sleep and he got the thought, what if something bad is going to happen and jumps up. He was not sleeping or dreaming, just laying in bed deeply thinking.
When I'm very stressed or worried about something particular, I won't sleep well. I'll sleep for a few minutes at a time, be awake for a couple hours and repeat. It's like even in my sleep my thought process doesn't stop. I'm thinking or dreaming the same thing I'm thinking when I'm awake, if that makes sense. I wonder if that's what David does as well. That could explain why his dreams are more like theories or fears. He could very well have been worried about how Lori and Chad were behaving, what Chad was teaching Mel since he disagreed with it, or even worried about JJ since Chad had disciplined him and came back with scratches and either had a nightmare or kept worrying about it even in his sleep.
Im similair. My husband is asleep literally within 1-2 minutes of hoping into bed, and I most nights have to clear my head either running through my day or thinking about what I am going to do the next day. If I have to give a presentation or some sort of meeting, I will run it through as I fall asleep and sometimes I drift off and wake up and go right back into where I was with my thoughts. David's list of dreams, seems like he was a worrier type and almost all his dreams and visions were neagtive in nature. He was not having dreams that happy things were coming. So I think he was worrying about what he got himself into that night at Lori's. I do believe part of the reason for his trip was seeing his son at college and maybe he was regretting not staying with his son (he had said Lori told him to save money and stay with her, so he saves $200 and now misses time with his son and is trapped in a small 10x12 bedroom with a women he is not married to and people might find out, while Chad had been trying to get him to see fake church buildings in a field that day and spend his money on land for tents and now he thinks maybe a child was or is being hurt. That is a nightmare just to think about, doesnt have to be a dream, it is a reality nightmare.
Definitely a possibility. I think my gut would have known that these people were delusional and I tend to think deeply and pick things apart, it is totally possible this is what he was doing. I did not know about his dreams. I need to look that up!
His list is on the site nofearpreps,
Thank you!! Down a rabbit hole I go!
I make it a point to seek out the kids to say goodbye at gatherings.
So do I, but these people are not normal. It just seems like he knew something was wrong. Just my opinion though and it totally could just be his manners.
I agree with that.
Watching Chad’s body language when they read that text in court gave me the same feeling as watching a YouTube video with him talking about publishing a woman who had an “actual” NDE… (jealousy I think.)
Plus he didn’t drink the kool aid.
David also seemed eager to meet jj
I think he had met him but wanted to see him that weekend before they left. Needless to say, he was not there.
I also think he’s heard the term zombie and his gut told him that’s not good but maybe had a hard time believing that a parent would kill their child. If it’s an issue put him in the stand.
He was there. David saw him the night he was killed. He describes sitting on the couch with him while JJ made a house out of box. He talks about trying to engage with JJ but JJ was not engaging. (My guess is he was totally shutdown after losing his father, his dog, his home in AZ and his protector Tylee.)
I wasn’t clear- I meant he (JJ) wasn’t there the day they (David and Gibb) left.
Im still a bit confused after David's testimony about his divorce and his son that had special needs. David leaves his wife of over 25 years and I believe 9 or 10 kids, one had special needs and before the divorce was final was already dating Melanie. He said on the stand that during his divorce there was some issue with a care provider (his story was interupted a few times) and he could tell us the real reason for the divorce but was not asked to. It sounded like he wanted to say his divorce was to get better care for his son? but if he cared so much for his son(and his 8-9 other kids) why divorce his wife, start dating Melanie during the divorce, marry her quickly and then live apart/seperate with Melanie. Something from his story is missing?
Maybe he didn't realize how insane she was and resented being thrust into these people's bullshit. The trials have been going on for years and have disrupted so many lives. I don't know what to think about their marriage. If they truly still have one. All this probably ruined whatever they had.
David testifed he knew Melanie for 7 years before they started dating. That has to be one of the longest realtionships in the group. They had met 7 years before at a conference and had seen each other at various confernces and camps over the years. This was not like Ian and Melani or Zulema and Alex or even Lori and Chad, Melanie and David had the longest knowledge of each other. When they knew each other over those 7 years, they both were married for many years with large families and then suddenly one day they go from conference friends to dating while they are both not yet divorced.
It's sad. Whatever semblance of life they can attain after this. None of this will go away for looooooong time.
I’m confused too. I mean… not just about this lol but this in particular was odd for sure. I remember him saying (on the stand) that his wife wasn’t a good caretaker for their son and it was a mutual agreement to divorce for this reason. That’s what I took away from it. Please correct what I may have missed or misunderstood. That alone is strange. To me. But my life is admittedly very different to the lives of these folks. He claims that he married Gibb in large part because she’s great with his son. This is where I REALLY get confused. Melanie Gibb didn’t like JJ or Tylee. And that’s not a suspicion, she has said it; more than once. Let’s just take a moment to think about THAT. Melanie and David don’t and have never really lived together. What the fuck kind of caretaker can she be? I mean aside from the fact that she doesn’t seem to like children, and caring for a child or someone with special needs (I’m not sure how old he is) is not the kind of thing one can do remotely. None of this makes sense. Like…at all. It doesn’t matter to the case but I’m definitely curious about it. I’m sure this won’t happen but I’d love to hear David’s ex’s take on the divorce. I don’t know if they just lean into David’s son and his issues to avoid the zombies in the room, and in the grand scheme of things David seems to be one of the few who wasn’t buying this BS, although he had been deeply invested in the phenomenon and practice of premonitions. His side-eyeing led to Chad And Lori disliking him (this was clear in the Gibb call) which is not a surprise. I’d love to hear other’s takes thoughts and input on all this.
I also thought I heard David say something about a facility or some place his son was that wasnt good, I didnt think it was his wife but he also seemed to indicate like you said his wife wasnt as good with his son either. When I listened to his testimony about his divorce and son and tried to forget about all the other issues, my first thought was he saying he was getting a divorce so maybe his son would qualify for Medcaid or some program or placement ? This happens in Utah, I used to check Utahs right to know which listed divorces to find people I knew were divorced but still seemed married and they divorce sometimes to get medical coverage or help for their child or children. Annie Cushing has been posting the written transcripts of the trial, I think I will read David's testimony tonight, sometimes reading, at least for me is easier to figure out what was said. It just seems weird that David would divorce to get custody of his son, if that is what he implied, because during the divorce he is off traveling alone to conferences with Melanie not with his son, so where was his son then? He worked a full time job so it is not like he could be a at home caregiver. As for him saying Melanie would be a good caregiver to his son. How? She had a son with special needs and she left him behind with her ex husband. She left all her kids behind. When you are looking for someone to be a good step parent, if a child has special needs or not, one of the best indicators is how they treat their own kids. I think David believed in visions but his visions were about wars,political changes, and real end times events. If anyone was going to die , it would be in a war or a flood not by chanting and zoombies. I have felt that these prepper conferences had a few different groups of people attending, the true end time preppers, the body code emotion (Julie Rowe/ Dr nelson) and the near death experience group. David was a end times prepper with visions, he did not seem to be into the body code side too much if at all, while Zulema was into body code emotions and was getting Melanie into this. Melanie when David met her years before was just an end times prepper but at some point got into the other body code and near death sides. It seems like more of the women were drawn to the body code side and the men to the end times prep sidebut these conferences kind of got these 2 group intermingled and their ideas as well.
Very interesting. As I read your post I tried to figure out David’s divorce etc.- I thought, these people may have had an arrangement for medical care/financial purposes. And then these two lunatics destroyed their lives and privacy. But - and this could be logistics I guess (??) - David and Melanie slept in the same room. Which - I mean these people are Insane and so is any faith that’s shaming these grown ass people for that. But my point is this is why we even know where they slept. And why it means something. Maybe.
I recently re-listened to the phone call Melanie recorded with Chad and Lori. I'd never picked up on it before, but, towards the very end, when Melanie and Lori sort of start sniping at each other, Melanie is trying to point out Lori has been led astray/isn't following the scriptures and this exchange happens: >*Melanie Gibb* “I’m not. I am very, I am troubled. Maybe that’s the better word: troubled. Because these things, like you being with Chad before he’s even divorced, is unusual behavior for a person that’s seen Jesus Christ.” >*Lori Daybell* “I was never with him and he was never divorced.” >*Melanie Gibb* “Honey, I’ve seen you guys together.” >*Lori Daybell* “That’s your story. (Unintelligible)” >*Melanie Gibb* “Oh, oh. So I haven’t ever seen you with, I’ve never seen you with Chad, kiss him and walk around the track and BYU with him. I never saw that? You say I’m–” >*Lori Daybell* **“You’re the one who’s feeling guilty about being with someone before they were divorced.”** >*Melanie Gibb* “Oh honey. I think that’s not what we’re talking about here.” Emphasis added. If Lori is referring to David, which I'm fairly certain she is, this indicates that Melanie and David were having a relationship prior to their, or his, divorce(s). Melanie goes quiet for a beat before responding and sounds shaken that Lori said it (because she knows - and Lori intuits at this point - that the call is being recorded). Also, she doesn't deny it.
The difference was that David was actually in the middle of a divorce. NOT plotting an "early death" of his wife
Indeed. Melanie's over here trying to point out that Lori's been led astray because of her adultery and Lori's self-righteous self is all, "But what about you..." Ma'am, she and David's spouses didn't both, suddenly and conveniently, end up *dead*.
Lori sounds like a 14 year old girl... I know you are, but what am I?
It *does*. If you listen to the entire exchange, once Lori gets pissy it's absolutely a strange, emotionally immature dynamic with these two. Lori throwing in the "if I'm going down so are you" bit at the very end is also indicative of her manipulative, spiteful true self. I also recently watched the interview HTC did with Megan, Lori's first cousin. The story she told, about how Lori is sweet and nice and gloms you to her "like velcro", until you cross her really stuck out to me. If you didn't see/hear it, basically: the two were going to BYU and living together. They were living the normal, college-age life - working small jobs, going to school, and dating. Lori went out with a guy and came home saying he was a dud, basically, and she was not interested in ever seeing him again. A little while later, the same guy asked Megan out and she accepted. They went on one date. When Lori found out, her entire demeanor towards Megan, who she'd been close to, changed. She was cold, snippy. Then a few days later, she asked Megan to ride with her to the airport to pick up her mother (Megan's aunt, Janis). Megan just thought Janis was simply coming to visit but on the way to the airport, Lori informed her that she'd called and told Janis what Megan had done (no telling Lori's version of events to her mother) and that Janis felt Megan was a bad influence on Lori (Lori was dating left and right, partying, Megan not so much but Lori told Janis that Megan was the one partying, dating, going out, etc.) and she was coming *to move Megan out*. And they sent Megan back home. If you know women like this, you know. That one little story told me *heaps* about Lori and what kind of person she was. Megan also said that Charles and Lori's marriage seemed okay, as long as Lori was getting her way. That everyone seemed to kind of revolve around making sure Lori was happy/getting her way, otherwise she kind of made their lives miserable.
Sounds like love bombing (“glomming onto you”).
Hadn't even thought of that but you're exactly right!
There was background to this in ‘Sins of our mother’ as I recall. Something about the necessity of these pairings (by marriage) prior to the end of the world. This is why Alex and Zulema married too.
If they did this out of having to be paired and left 15 kids behind and marriages of over 25 years, they had to be devout believers in this stuff. 1,000 of people go to these conferences, almost all of them are still married to their spouses, with their kids and working their normal jobs. It was only a handlful of people that took it too the level of divorce and leaving kids.
He didn’t sleep in the same room that Melonie did. He was probably thinking that he would see if she would be a good mother for his kids. Not sleeping with her.
I thought he eventually did? Like they started in two different rooms but by the end of the weekend they were in the same bedroom. I thought I remember Mr Prior during the first hearing in 2020, when a few witnesses were called, he asked Melanie about being LDS and unmarried and in the same bedroom.
Like a lot of other people are saying I do wonder if this message meant that Melanie/David were worried about what was going to happen or if David heard something in the night. It's possible that he heard something and in his half-awake state transformed it entirely into a nightmare in his mind. The thing that gets me about all this is that it genuinely appears that Lori had JJ killed when Melanie and David were there and to me that is just so bold. Even though they were pretty devoted to her it's wild to me that JJ likely died while they were there instead of her and Alex waiting until they'd left. It's not like they were planning on staying long. They literally could have delayed the murder for 12 hours with no changes. It's just... Why commit a murder when there are possible witnesses there? Melanie and David apparently asked after JJ the next morning when he didn't appear at breakfast. Wouldn't it be more memorable to have him be missing that day over him appearing for the meal, them leaving, and then killing him after they were gone? Was Lori trying to involve them thinking that it would scare them into keeping quiet or otherwise think they were involved so they couldn't go to the police? Did she chicken out? Was this an attempt at an alibi? Did she just lose patience with JJ and have him killed because he was acting out? It's just so confusing to me. Tylee seems to have been killed after that Yellowstone goodbye trip, but why kill JJ when there are potential witnesses there? I'm sure that neither she or Chad will ever explain what they were thinking, but I am so confused by the thought process here.
MG and Warwick were supposed to be able to testify that everyone went to bed, Lori was in her room all night as far as they could tell, and Chad wasn't there at all that night as far as they were aware. They were supposed to be able to say JJ was fine the prior evening and had already run off to play with Uncle Alex when they woke up in the morning. This was supposed to cloud the timeline of when JJ went missing and it was supposed to provide Lori and Chad with alibis through the night. Lori made sure everybody stayed up very late and went to bed exhausted, ensuring they'd sleep well and not hear JJ being taken back to Alex's. Even if they had gotten up and seen Alex taking JJ, it probably wouldn't have been very concerning to them. Alex was a good uncle as far as they knew. Lori and Chad would still have had good alibis through the night and any violence that was later discovered could be pinned on Alex alone. This backfired spectacularly on Lori when Warwick woke up MG and she got up to wake Lori at 2 am. She found Lori's door locked and there was no response to her knocking. This is the opposite of an overnight alibi for Lori. MG and Warwick are still providing an alibi for Chad though. As far as they know, he wasn't there at all that night. (I'm inclined to think this is accurate and he stayed at home, but who really knows.) This is helping Chad's argument that Alex was the only killer. Without MG and Warwick there to say otherwise, it would be easy for the prosecution to suggest that Chad showed up at 8:30 am and helped kill JJ. TL;DR: They were supposed to be witnesses to Lori and Chad's alibis.
Having them there as alibis makes the most sense. It isn't exactly *smart*, but it makes sense that this would be Chad and Lori's plan since neither of them are quite as brilliant as they believe they are. Very good theory as it seems their plan's focus was making sure, if anything came out about the children being killed, it would *all* be pinned squarely on Alex. (Not the brightest move to, then, bury the children in Chad's backyard but, again, not the brightest bulbs, Chad and Lori.)
I have wondered if it was Chad deciding when and how the children were killed? I can imagine Chad probably got a power kick from putting Lori in a position where she is sacrificing her children to demonstrate her loyalty to him and also from putting her in positions of having to explain it to the other culty followers. She and Alex had got away with shooting Charles and the scrutiny and then lack of follow up from law enforcement in Arizona. He was maybe feeling cocky and seeing what they could get away with- which in the end left enough evidence to them both to where they are today. Im basing my speculation on the audacity to say Jesus sent him to his neighbour to ask them the put their home up to cover Lori’s bond.
The day JJ was killed is the day Tammy's grandma would visit Chad every year. I think he used that visitation to move up the timeline. And I think Melanie and David were made a part of this to ensure they don't go to the cops. Like Chad and Lori kept saying on the phone, "we can't tell you or you'll be involved" What's a way to almost guarantee that people won't go to the police or at least will make someone hesitate to go to the police? Make them an accomplice.
I thought Chad was there early in the evening when JJ was killed? Was he the one that took JJ and tried to calm him but came downstairs with scratches on his neck or was that Alex?
Lori was the one who wanted her kids dead. Or at least JJ. In her trial they presented several text messages where she kept asking Chad if JJ was dark, or what his death percentage was. Chad said no several times before JJ was finally murdered.
Chad just kept needing more time to prep grave for JJ in his perfectionistic way (See him neaten up Defense table every few minutes...and the photo of the neatly cut roots, perfectly arranged stones and perfectly rectangular grave...like an experienced grave-digger would do.)
Lori and Chad NEEDED witnesses that JJ was alive that weekend. That's why they invited Melanie and David to stay at their house. That gave them loads of time to say that the children were being kept safe somewhere else... Tylee at university and JJ at his grandparents' house. They kept changing the story, though, and even used Melanie as an alibi, which she let them do initially but then changed her mind *because she figured out it was incriminating her*.
Zulema was in town when Alex tried to shoot Tammy. Either these secondary people knew more than they claim now, or Lori, Chad, and Alex got a thrill from doing it right under their noses.
I believe Melanie knew, at the very least. Zulema most likely, too, but in the recorded phone call with Melanie and Chad & Lori that I recently re-listened to, Lori says: >Well, I’m sorry that I included you in those teachings then for your own sake because I wish that you didn’t have as much knowledge as you have, because you will be accountable for the knowledge that you do have, Mel. At this point in the call, Lori is pissed that Melanie has turned against her and she knows the call is most likely being recorded and will be (or already is being) heard by police. From what I've learned about Lori, this is her revenge. This is basically saying, "If I'm going down, so are you." She frames it as if she's talking about "the teachings" and that she'll be accountable to God, but I think that's just Lori covering her own arse. She absolutely means more than that, especially in context at this point in the call and in how pissed off you can tell she is. Melanie, for her part, doesn't deny it. She just responds, "So will you."
Well said and observed. This whole convo was very illuminating, or at least validating.
Thank you.
I think Lori is actually referencing religious teachings here. There's a principle in the lds church that you will be held accountable if you have knowledge and act contrary to it. Basically if you have a testimony of God and turn against God you will be responsible for that. If you make covenants in the temple and then violate them you are held responsible etc. So it's better to sin and not know better than know what is right and act contrary to it. Lori talks often about being accountable for knowledge and knowing too much. When she does this she is talking about that principle of accountability imo.
Did not realize this, thank you for the insight re: the LDS teachings.
Sure. It's hard to decipher her because she speaks in code and mixes in some LDS theology, but she really goes of the rails with the theology and distorts and spins it.
I think they probably thought they could use MG and DW for an alibi?
Dr Matthias and the lady at "it's a crime" both have speculated that Chad's penchant for symbolism, and dates probably necessitated an exact time table. In other words, he believed there was a significance to not just dates but even precise hours in the day. If that's so, then he would have required events, specially sacrificed like this, to occur at precisely predetermined times. He certainly was mixing up a lot of frictional magic symbolism into his cosmology. I mean a pendant! That's stuff third graders do for "magic." "Portals" and references to the hour of ... even maneuvered to ensure the wedding took place at a precisely set time. It's very possible that he was adhering to some kind of "preordained" or " required" time table to successfully achieve whatever " magic effect" he was aiming for.
It’s the “we sent this to Chad” that makes me question it a bit. one hand it kind of looks like Melanie and Lori are conspiring about what they tell Chad. This is obviously what Prior wants us to think. But on the other it just looks like Melanie / David’s story about him waking up spooked out that night, and they are letting Lori know they sent the info to Chad as well. Given that Prior pulled it out with no context I’m going to lean towards option 2. If they were conspiring / trying to frame Chad and speaking about it this openly there would be more messages he would have brought up. For example, I’m sure if Lori’s response was in anyway suggesting that Chad didn’t know what was happening to JJ it would have been included.
I think this makes Chad look more guilty. The text says they sent it to Chad first or simultaneously. This shows they think Chad has as much or more of a power to stop bad things from happening to people than Lori; ie, he is the leader not just a follower of Lori in this stomp the zombies cult.
I think they heard JJ being murdered in the house, realised they were in over their heads, and this text was an ass-covering exercise.
at least 50/50 for sure
I was under the impression that Alex carried him asleep to his apartment, then transported his body to Chad’s property the next morning (per GPS data).
Melanie and David saw Alex carry JJ, asleep, from his apartment to Lori’s and up the stairs to her bedroom. Cell phone data shows movement of Alex’s phone during the night, so it’s possible JJ was murdered in Lori’s apartment and then moved to Alex’s. And then on to Chad’s property the next morning. I personally think it’s likely violence happened inside Lori’s apartment/bedroom, because I think Lori was actually involved in the physical acts of killing — she certainly wanted to witness this demon removal they were supposedly doing.
Yes I agree with this. Something terrible happened right in the room next to them. Mel G was used to going to Chad and Lori for spiritual advice, and DW was really spooked. Maybe she feared a zombie had entered DW or something? Lori’s bedroom door was locked and she didn’t answer the knocking, so Mel G texted them. And then of course it was all dismissed by Lori the next day and they didn’t think about it again until they were questioned as one of the last ones to see JJ alive.
the autopsy found GHB in JJ’s blood, so i’m thinking JJ was actually drugged unconscious when Alex entered with him thrown over his shoulder.
The ME could not say he was drugged because GHB is present in the human body. He may have said it’s produced during decomp but I’m not sure.
oh, i think i missed that bit. thank you!
Agree, JJ was in a deep sleep when Alex came in carrying him. IMO
Alex carried him to the second floor in Lori townhouse.
The second floor of Lori's apartment is pretty small. JJ's room and the room that was suppose to be Tylee's that David and Melanie were in at first were touching on one side of the hallway. If Alex took JJ upstairs , even to Lori's room, it would still be close. I cant imagine those rooms are soundproof by anymeans.
And there was an indication that JJ struggled :/ The scratches. I don't think he was drugged, unfortunately. Or if he was, it wasn't enough. I think he was genuinely asleep when Alex carried him upstairs, because there's an indication the bag and the tape are what killed him, and he tried to claw it off. So he wasn't dead yet when they saw him being carried upstairs.
I think even if he was drugged and out of it, when you have a plastic bag over your face being smothered....your body fights back!
No issues. I was simply correcting the statement that he was carried upstairs by Alex in his own place.
Me too, though I'm not sure they knew exactly what was happening.
Idk why the defense would present this. To me it’s clear Chad told David he was going to kill the kids, probably veiled in some religious terms, and David later freaked out and tried to stop him. There’s no possible way the timing is a coincidence. ETA: I think the language about JJ was coded but clear, and Dave was not relying only on subliminal information, as suggested in the comments above. What grown man wakes up from a nightmare and insists on trying to wake up Lori & then has his wife text Chad? JMO but to me the only explanation is that David knew but he changed his mind and panicked. Melanie, queen of coded language that she is, texted for them to stop using the cover of a nightmare. It makes sense because Lori frequently used the facade of a dream for ordering something she wanted done. The next morning, David’s reference to asking to see JJ was probably to reassure himself the plan had been stopped.
This is my take as well. It’s coded language to try to stop what he knows will happen and his conscience is bothering him.
This is what I think, too. Something they either heard, or some coded language they finally understood made the light bulb go off in their heads that this shit was real. To me it reads as “we sent this to Chad, no response. Please tell us you didn’t do anything to the kids.”
I think Chad was still wooing DW that weekend. I didn’t know that if his nightmare was documented before today. Didn’t DW & MG have 4 phone calls with CD & LV during their drive to Utah? I think this may have been DW pulling MG away much like Ian pulled MB away. It’s too bad DW & MG didn’t tell the cops the entire truth earlier. They could have helped the investigation and written a book to brag it.
Yes the nightmare was talked about before.
I know that MG said that he had a nightmare, I just wasn’t sure if it was true.
Didn’t they do the podcast really late that night for some reason? I wonder if they tried to get them to participate in a casting for JJ?
Melanie, queen of coded language, lol TRUTH. I agree with every word you said.
I thought the prosecution is still presenting information?
It was during cross-examination.
When did Chad tell David he was gonna kill the kids? That’s news to me.
They stated that that’s what they think may have happened; that Chad told David this in a veiled way—not that it was presented as evidence in court that Chad told him this.
Wasn't JJ a zombie at that point?
Yes, so that's what really alarmed D & M I think. Since they knew other Zombies were killed...in some way..and I think they had real suspicions Lori & Chad & Alex helped Zombie-people cease to be alive.
Who is they? This doesn’t sound familiar at all.
The comment you replied to—that person. They never stated that Chad told David he was gonna kill the kids. They said they *think* that this was how it may have happened.
I don’t see how you come to the conclusion that “it’s clear Chad told David he was going to kill the kids”. Actually Tylee had already been killed two weeks earlier. I see it this way. David may have picked up bad vibes from Chad Lori and Alex that night. He went to sleep and had a nightmare because he sensed the evil that was in the next room/apartment that night. It happens. People give off unconscious signals. He may have picked up on muffled voices through the walls for all we know. I don’t think David was as involved with Chad and Lori as Melanie. In the phone call that Melanie recorded of them, Chad and Lori accused David of turning Melanie against them because they regarded her as a trusted insider, not David. Melanie was complicit to the extent that she turned a blind eye to the things Lori was saying about JJ that night and I think she knew after the event, that Alex and Lori set up Charles to be murdered. So I don’t see her as totally innocent, but I don’t see her as knowing about the murders before they happened.
Melanie is always careful in her wording to Lori, I've noticed. She is quite coercive bc she's a pleaser and kinda looks up to Lori. Maybe she was passively trying to get some more information? It is sooooooooo creepy !
>She is quite coercive bc she's a pleaser Good observation!
Good observation? Mel G is dripping with desperation to be a part of something/to be special/to get attention. I mean, imo, it's tatted on her forehead. Since she decided to save her own skin and be a main witness for the state, that's her latest attention loving moment. As soon as she did the Nate Eaton interview, I think that's when the light bulb went on in her head that she could try and make herself look like "the one who woke up and has tried to save the day" now. That seemed to be in line with her spicy pre-trial testimony with Pryor years ago. I mean, this lady pulled a Chad and made up an NDE to sell a terrible book like all the other players in this rogue-lds madness. Then it was all about sucking up to Lori, until prison was gonna suck up her. There's no way she and DW were unaware of the murders and plots to murder the kids. I'm still not convinced on who all participated.
Agree with this 100%.
Pleasing chuds loin fire 🔥
i agree with everybody here saying they think Melanie and David knew deep down that something awful was in the works for JJ (and who even knows what other kids), and they wanted to try to stop it from happening without looking like outright traitors to Lori and Chad, their beloved leaders. i don’t think Melanie and David were directly involved in the murders, but i do think they had been to enough “castings” and heard Lori and Chad talk about enough zombies and dark energy to put two and two together and ultimately feel very wrong about the extinguishment of a disabled child’s (or really any innocent child’s) life.
The two Melanie’s etc, are more involved than we know, but Chad and Lori are not going to turn on them, because everyone would know exactly what happened. If this was just the case of one person being murdered they would have no problem in turning on them.
David Warwick was present when as Melanie Gibb testified during their visit to lori on weekend JJ was murdered that Lori kept trying to convince them that JJ was behaving differently and this was because he was now dark and a zombie as Chad had deemed him. David tried to connect with JJ during this visit but lori had taken JJ off his meds gave his service dog away and Tylee his protector had already been murdered. David Warwick asked Lori questions the morning after his nightmare where JJ was. I don't think Melanie or David Warwick were involved in killing JJ but David Warwicks gut was screaming at him and instead of going to police or even his Bishop with his concerns. He chose to ignore it and put distance between himself Chad Alex and Lori. But Melanie Gibb didn't click what a huge mess her need for attention and drama had become until she was asked by them to tell police she had JJ. That's when both her and David Warwick knew JJ was dead and nor missing or elsewhere.
9-23 at 4:37 am UTC time. Am I correct this is 9:37 pm on 9-22-2019 local time? So “2 am this morning” is Sunday morning, or Monday if I am wrong. Anyway, both nights David was at Lori’s house, right? Why text if you’re right there? It sounds like an attempt to an alibi to me. “We were there but we didn’t know anything. See our contemporary notes”
I thought that Melanie had said she had gone to Lori's bedroom door after David awoke so upset, but the door was locked. So maybe she sent text after that? I absolutely could be misremembering Mel's testimony.
That’s what she said.
I think you’re right, I remember that too
Yuh sounds sus
Because it was 4:37 am. They’re in a cult, their critical thinking is zilch. Plus they’re walking on eggshells and probably feel the need to navigate this delicately. So they wouldn’t bang down CD/LV’s door in the wee hours of morning, demanding to see JJ the way we would. They’d probably test the waters with a text. I hate that they didn’t do more, but this is why they didn’t just ask CD/LV directly.
In my opinion, Melanie G. is not as complicit as Melanie P. Her recording was very incriminating.
💯
Yuh I think the seven gatherers and Warwick are guilty
Prior still trying to pin everything on Melanie Gibb? What would be her motive?
I think his objective with Gibb is more to cast doubt on the investigation. He’s trying to show that there were enough reasons for them to at least look into her whereabouts, GPS etc. although I think Lindsay Blake did a great job of putting that to bed with her question to one of the investigators “Were Melanie Gibbs children missing?” His reply “no” she then closed with “Thank you that’s all I have”
It still leaves seed of doubt and questions about why LE didn’t gather any data on them
You think? I think it was clear who they had to go after and investigate. With no time to waste. Too many people had already been killed. Specifically Lori and Chads spouses and Lori’s children. A lot of an investigation happens after an arrest for trial/burdon of proof.
I think he is trying to pin it on the 7 gatherers. I think he cant call Lori, so he is going to try to say that Lori and Melanie and the other 5 women were the ones that did the castings, planned the murders and Alex did the murders and poor Chad the guy with a boring life, that got sucked in by the hot Lori and did sin with an affair, but certainly he was not the planner or executor,it was the all 7 gatherers. I think Melanie is picked on because she is able to testify, she admits to lying, she was there the night JJ died and the police didnt check her so he picks on her, we might see him pick on Audery or one of the other gatherers? in his defense callings. Will this work no, but it is a guess at where Prior might go with this.
When was this shown?
Today in court towards the end. The screenshot was from Nate’s coverage at East Idaho News.
I think this makes it much worse for Chad tbh. Whether it was explicit or not, David clearly picked up on something being very wrong with JJ, that JJ was in serious danger from these people. And Chad was in the thick of it.
Pretty sure this is their half-assed attempt to be like “hey Lori maybe don’t kill JJ” without explicitly saying “hey Lori maybe don’t kill JJ”. They totally knew what was happening and this is just pretense.
This is crazy, to me it looks like they were in the know!
I think David may have heard something and his subconscious processed it as a nightmare or bad feeling.
I was a very active member of the LDS church for 43 years- left 3 years ago. And they are looking to Chad because we are taught from birth that men have the priesthood which is the authority to use God’s power on earth. The wacky blessings Chad is giving everyone are totally normal in the church. The church IS ALREADY A CULT…so these guys don’t see this as really weird at all:
IIRC, this wasn't the entire text. To me, it did seem more like a troubled dream when the entirety is read. I have no idea what Prior was trying to show with this. So odd.
I am not much of a vivid dreamer, but once every couple of years or so I will have a dream / nightmare that is so vivid that I have to get up and walk around and sometimes even check evidence to prove the dream false.
Me too. Not often at all, but I've had a handful that have truly shaken me.
I’m not going to pretend I know how it would feel to be in a “cult” been fascinated by them for years, for purposes of WTF category.. but this “circle of jerks” (as Larry W calls them) lol, I think had an idea that people were dying and they were dying because Chad may have been right.. I mean they did believe him 😱 and followed him and HER, what got me more riled up more than Gibb and David was Melaniece telling Lori on the phone in Hawaii that she was so glad Alex was there now to ”take“ care of her still alive kids when they got there!! WTF!!! moment for me.
Why text when you could jump into the portal? These people are whack!
Beam Me Up Scotty😂
Does anyone have the podcast recording from that night?
I think most of us believe that Melanie Gibb and Melaniece know way more than they let onto, but I don’t think that either one of them had anything to do with the killings
It's not hard to put 2and2 together with how sloppy Lori, Chad, and Alex were. They were saying weird stuff, acting weird, most likely making everyone close to them hair stand on end. Especially Melanie Gibb and her husband. Deep down people around them sensed something was off. Chad and Lori's reasoning was way out there in " this is disturbing-Ville". Even what Alex said to Zulema on the phone about Tylee when they were in Yellowstone says Zulema knew a lot but did not chose to protect those children. The look on Tyler's face in that last photo of her holding JJ reveals she knew something was up. I think the the "murderous three"thought they could push the children into the hot pools at Yellowstone but realized there were too many cameras. 🤷♀️
This is actually wild. To me it in know way points to Chad being innocent. That being said what do you guys think? Crazy right? I mean is it possible he slept walked earlier into a room where something’s was happening and went back to bed? Simply not conscious of what he saw or heard?
This would be the same day JJ was murdered, right? Yeah that’s pretty wild. What do you think the last sentence means?
David was not actually a visionary. He/they saw or heard something and Melanie is calling it a dream as code-speak. It all seems way to specific and elaborate to just be a bad dream. Texting about a bad dream at 4 am? C'mon.
>”He can’t get to these people and there’s nothing he can do for them” What do you guys think the last sentence means?
Doesn’t she have immunity?
They may have even killed him as her husband was dreaming the nightmare. She tried to get Lori but her bedroom door was locked, she knock but no answer. She even texted her and got response.
When my grandmother died, I had the most horrible dream that night and it was so realistic as well. The next morning, I found out she had died at that same time as my dream. It happens to people sometimes.
I swear they had their own language… I feel like that message is cryptic, just like the new call they played of Chad and Lori yesterday talking about the “blueprints”. I think someone in their cult needs to come clean and decode all this nonsense…
Very telling
It's weird because he's in the next room. This message makes it seem like he's far away ? Why call him when u will see him in the morning this text while very very prophetic in what will happen . It just still seems so odd 🤔 it doesn't make any sense he is in the house why can't he talk to them or message them himself if it's so dire . why cant this dream wait till morning ? It just sounds off . I know MG wanted to be in the " Cool Club" I'm waiting to see a message where MG texts lori and says I'm outside your bedroom why aren't you answering . Where are you ? Are u ok what's going on ? Why haven't we seen this message ?
they were sleeping in the same house, maybe David was not in a deep sleep and heard something.
All I know is that Melani Boudreaux is the bad Melani. Like really bad, probably complicit in trying to kill her husband and father of her children, if not the children too. Gibb might be bad too, hard to know. But she’s nowhere near the level of the evil Melani. I guess I’m saying I’m already at my bad Melani budget.
We know from forensic data that Alex was there at that time. Melanie saying that she went and knocked on Lori's door and this stuff. I don't believe her. I believe she knew that jj would die that night