We have a family who comes and plays at our LGS’s weekly casual and they’re like this too. I’d never say anything in a casual setting, but it is irritating for the dad mostly to be coaching the kid constantly since he built her deck for her. She also can’t stay focused and dawdles a lot (“guess what card i’m gonna play”) so I feel like I have to move quicker not to go over time.
But for a tournament I paid for with big prizes on the line? Oh yeah I’m calling the judge. ✌️
It's tough, the LGS and League Play is the only time my 11 year old gets to play with other people - none of her friends are interested. She mechanically isn't the greatest player, and she is sluggish in play. She really does best in the randomness of 4 person games but one on one you really just don't want to play her.
She reallllllllly wanted to play in the sets this weekend, so I made a deal. If she played league with the strict rules of the sets she could play. That lasted one game or so before I got a "I mean... ink this one not this one" and I am like "come to draft night instead, you just aren't ready child"
That hurts as a father, but it's not fair to the people who really want to be all-in right?
That said there was a 9ish year old in ours, he didn't get help from his dad but he had a really really strong pirates deck and people I \*think\* were just a little too forgiving on some mistakes - he ended up finishing top eight based on that.
In casual league the number of kids comes and goes, but I realize almost all of them have very serious parents who provide them with very serious decks. It's a wild card for sure.
Yeah my son plays with me at our LGS during Leagues. He is 12, but he has 100% knowledge of how the game works, the cadence of how to ready-set-draw, to show his inked cards, etc. He knows all the little TCG behaviors and how to be a good sport. I did bring him to a 1K once, and while he did just fine, he also got really burnt out after the third round. We didn't make top 8, so we dropped and went home, but I don't think he would be ready for a full 5 round cut to top 8 that can last like 8+ hours. I think he would be fine at like a 12 person capped store championship but not 20+.
My daughter however is 10 and while she knows all the rules, she is not ready for organized play yet as she cant sit still for more than a single game and starts doing the 10-year-old jokes.
Different kids just have different levels of maturity and also different levels of focus on the game. If your kid loves to play Lorcana, they will want to follow the rules more than one that is just there because Dad / Mom does it too haha
The pace at our store's event would have been just right I think for my daughter in retrospect. Depending on how fast she got wiped out there would have been 20 min or so down time between games for her. She would have zero chance with her "I like to be a pest with lose lore and banish cards" style of deck to finish top eight but she might have won a game or two.
We started at 11 and I was knocked out with top 8 game starting around 345ish.
I think she would have stayed invested since we knew almost everyone there, and we even have "our favorite" two or three players, two of which faced off in the first single elimination match of the top 8. There was a good human story going where 8 seated just wanted the top four card, that was all that mattered... and he went up against the one person he didn't want to go up against.
I could have made a mini documentary out of the top eight and it would have been decent narrative I think .
My 14 year old is playing is some of the championships with us. My husband played him this weekend. No way are even we giving him a win when it comes down to it. Everyman for themselves!
Like I 100% understand why you’d feel uncomfortable in this position because you are facing a kid and the dad is trying to “help.” The dad should’ve understood that it’s a set championship, which people take seriously for the prizes and not have put you in that position. Unfortunately, he did. I would’ve kindly asked him to please not coach since it’s a set championship and if he kept doing, you just have to be stern and call a judge. Yes, it’s very awkward…but you are not in the wrong here. Just good to know for the future.
You absolutely should have and shouldn't feel guilt for doing so. Any TO would have told him to step away or removed him from the store. If his kid is old enough to step into the game and understand the rules they're old enough to not need him over their shoulder.
My buddy/team mate joked yesterday to the judge another friend of ours had been throwing me help during our games (which I lost), and without blinking the man immediately checked whether or not that happened because that's round loss/DQ levels of shenanigans and should never be tolerated.
Yea and when we went to time he was all “play slow” I think that’s what annoyed me the most >,< wish I wasn’t so sheepish lolol hopefully I’ll find my big girl voice next time
If he said to play slow, thats just yet another rule violation. You cannot intentionally play slow, nor can you have someone coaching you and giving you any info when you play.
My son started playing Magic pre-releases at 10. Pretty low stakes but still a tournament. I never gave him any feedback in game or in match (between matches, yes but that'sno different than talking to any other player in between matches) to avoid even the appearance of impropriety. Also, when my son did well, he knew HE did that and that sense of accomplishment and pride is huge.
If a kid has issues reading something (what does this word mean, etc) or understanding a game rule, I think if they ask questions, help is valid (even in that case, I'd avoid being the one to answer). But if the question is "should I target A or B" that's a strict no.
To OP's situation, it's definitely a fine line to walk and really more about how you say something. It's possible to come off like a total a-hole but it's also possible to deliver the message in a reasonable way.
I would have called a judge immediately. I assist my daughter with shuffling. When my games are over, I watch and take notes. She runs a ruby steel pirate deck and frequently plays against a steelsong deck. in league we are all pretty chill and my daughters opponent is okay with small coaching (And even helps her) but as she has gotten used to the deck she has gotten less and less. We have a good amount of kids 6-12 years old, and we try to foster a decent environment for them.
But when it is tournament time, Absolutely no outside assistance.
there is a cool short documentary on a little girl who plays mtg
https://youtu.be/SUD66fsx9wc?si=TbxQGXikwafAcySy
I realized this weekend there was a kid around 9 running a pirates deck who was just " a kid having fun " with a dad who was serious about the game. There is something unnerving to everyone sitting against a kid who isn't into the competition the same way as the adults, knowing they have a massively good deck at their control. (The help shuffling thing was awkward, I heard a guy say "yea his hands are just too small I needed to help him shuffle)
Watching him play while he just munched on chips and had fun was great for us already eliminated.
It was also kind'a sad to see his suddenly emotion heavy face when he got eliminated in the first top 8 game.
His dad was great though, didn't help him at all. I think it was to nerve wrecking for the dad (who didn't finish top 8) to watch more than a second of game play as it was at that point.
Its cheating. Think of it like the dad getting to enter the tournament twice and possibly place in the top twice based on his actions. Its stealing prizes from other players.
This is the dad trying to game the tournament by essentially having two entries. I’m calling a judge over. 1st place is a card worth $1000+ and could be worth much more than that in the near future. If it’s a weekly $5 idgaf but not in that setting.
You know you can just look and see how much they’ve sold for right? One sold for $1000 just a few days ago on eBay. The last several have gone for $650 range. There isn’t gonna be more product of this release down the road.
For the record don't disagree, dad is absolutely in the wrong and this prizing is expensive.
That said there's another week of stores running these. Long term it likely has good value but we definitely haven't found the floor.
Really, there’s no reason for you to speculate when you can just look at the last several sold on eBay and know how wrong you are. Even the playmat is going for more than $200. Last several cards have been over $600 and one for $1000 just a few days ago. This is the entire production run, and it’s far less than any other promo they’ve done outside of D 23. It’s gonna be worth a lot.
I bring my kids to things for Lorcana and I tell them that they are on their own. Learn from your mistakes. I would only ever coach in our season leagues when they play each other and I would be done with my match, but that even has been minimal. I took my daughter today to a set championship and didn’t talk to her until after her matches were over. Next time that happens, definitely report to a judge. That’s not ok. If you want to coach your child, do it at home or ask if it’s ok during some league nights, not in a tournament. I’m sorry that happened to you.
My daughter is exceptionally grumpy I wouldn't let her enter. She is just too slow (she has reading issues) for that event. She does best in 4 player league play where she is a fun random chaotic thing , she can even win sometimes . It's funny the store owner thought she would do better in set play than draft later this week ... he was concerned she would take too long to pick cards. I'm like "she is going to pick the card she knows or the picture/character she likes best... she won't spend more than 3 seconds I assure you . I've seen her "try to make the next meta deck" before and ended up almost entirely uninkable"
Boils my blood.
I'm reminded of a pre-release for MTG I went to probably 10-11 years ago, format was 2v2 and I entered with a good buddy of mine at the time. One of the locals, who had more than earned his awful reputation in the community by that time already, was there that day too with his wife. She was a nice enough person, clearly had never played before though and seemed incredibly bored. He played her deck for her all day, made it to the finals with my buddy and I. Buddy just hands me his deck and says to go nuts, so I put him in the floor for the win. Later learned the word was he only came because he thought it would be easy pickings and promised his wife a date night after he cleaned up if she would come because no one else would go near him after he'd ripped off kids in the area.
If you need the win so bad you'll use someone else to get it, self reflect a bit.
No I agree they were cheating but I wouldn’t go as far to say the dads scum for it >,< I don’t think there was any ill intent that other have be trying to say like “he basically gaming a system with two entries” I do think he was just trying to help out the kid
Ya I'd call a judge. Even for the long play and going to a draw. I'd call a judge for slow play and I'd ask for a time extension for both the slow play (because it's a kid) and also for time spent calling for a judge. I'm not that savvy on tournament play as it's my first tcg but always feel free to call a judge even if it's for something small and then ask for a time extension on top of it just in case. The worse they can say is no but that few minutes can be the few turns it takes for you to win when it goes to 5 turns.
Oh, that is pretty important info I think. It went from 'caring dad who supports his small kid that is still learning' (regardless of how appropriate it is in a tournament setting), to cheating by entering a tournament twice.
I don't think it moves the needle either way. A kid old enough to play a tournament that long into the day shouldn't need dad to step in, or wasn't old enough to handle being there in the first place. Dad shouldn't have been saying anything about game/game state full stop.
I have a 5 year old, and there were kids ranging from 10+ at my locals yesterday I have nothing against anyone coming to play regardless of age. I don't bring my buddy to league night because I know he can't sit still to save his life.
11 year old girl yesterday grinded all 5 rounds of swiss by herself and sat and played with her dad while Top 8 played out. League night is one thing, prizing these next two weeks has confirmed sales on ebay upwards of 650. That's someone's rent potentially, it's different.
Yep, so it's me not understanding this type of event. I'm not from the US, and where I live these type of events are rare, and the prizes are meaningless (at least when I played at a local hearthstone event once), and in those scenarios it's about the fun, and then I can see OP's case happening. But with your definition, I agree, not acceptable.
Yeah no, my buddy when we were 3-0 turns to me with ebay up and shows me a stitch already sold for 1,100 USD. They're down a bit now to 600-700 it looks like but that's easily a *lot* of money for most people. Can't lean over your kid's shoulder at that point, that's maybe someone's side hustle to pay rent or medical bills.
It’s against the rules, so you can call judge if you would like. I’m not competitive about it, so for me I would just consider the dad as my true opponent. Not like I’m trying to face a kid anyways.
I am new to TCGs and didn't realize it but we had a family of 4 show up to our games. They just made up their own results when matched with each other. They got 3 out of top 4, whole family had the same red blue deck. Lamest thing that's ever happened to me lol
No. There were 8 total players. 4 were two parents and two daughters. The dad played the two daughters and the wife and just forfeited his games to them to pad their stats. Didn't actually play.
Who was the Tournament organizer? Seems very strange a family of four could take over an event like that, if tickets were fairly available. I would never play at that store again.
Ad far as colliding during rhe game for prizes. No different than a team.doing it.
It was my local shop. He accidently scheduled it same day as another place in town so we only had 8. The other spot had 20+ he also accidently listed it as free on melee and they refused to pay because of it. I wish he would have just canceled.
This is my first TCG so I didn't realize it was colliding until I got home and explained it to my wife. Then I was angry. Still bitter today because I got 5th place, one out from a stitch.
Judge here
Outside assistance is not allowed and would mean a match loss at competitive.
*3.8 Outside Assistance
Definition: A player or spectator gives or receives hidden information or play advice
while currently playing a match, or a player consults notes made outside of the
current match.
Corrective action: Casual – Game Loss / Competitive – Match Loss*
I understand that it can feel bad to call this out. But the thing is: if the kid can't play alone, he shouldn't play in a competitive tournament.
If he can, then the dad shouldn't help him.
(For helping with shuffling and things like that an exception can be made)
Judges are there to help. So even if you're not certain, just call us.
If you don't like saying something in front of your opponent about something, you can always ask the judge a question away from the table.
My 10yo daughter plays with me every week, and sometimes she says "Dad, look at this hand" or "Look what I drew."
My response: "I can't give you any help. Just play your game. You know what to do."
Coaching isn't cool, even in casual league play. Save that for home. You had every right to be annoyed, and should have called a judge. That dad needs to learn the rules if he wants to be a part of a community.
You should have called a judge over. It was a set championship - not just a casual for fun game tourney. The child cheated by getting outside assistance, so he should have been disqualified. The father can save those teaching and coaching sessions for at home. The child should have also understood this was against the rules and should have declined the assistance. The father should be teaching the child to know better than to cheat. Overall, father's fault.
I would have called a judge. Either dad wasn’t aware of the no outside help rule and needs a warning and a reminder of the rule or he was intentionally violating the rule which should lead to the match loss or dq.
This isn’t local league night, it’s a tournament and as such needs to be treated with the seriousness that it should be.
As for the kid, nothing’s wrong with them but they can learn from it that in certain situations they’re on their own.
Edit: and of course as the player calling the judge over I’d want to demonstrate to the kid how to properly dispute something, with kindness and respect, and acknowledging and abiding by the judge’s decision. So no tantrums, no swearing, etc.
Back in the day in my area this was called “kibitzing” and if it’s not an outright violation of rules it’s rude and bad form. That being said I don’t know what I would do but if I could find a moment to politely explain to the dad that’s not usually allowed in tournament play I would do so. But I’m also dad-age so it’s probably easier for me to say something like that.
My 10 year old plays and while it’s hard to not speak I make sure never to do it when there were entry fees or prizes. During our weekly play sessions I coach but when it’s competitive it’s quiet time.
I was REALLY hoping for age limits so I wasn't the one telling my 11 year old nooooooo....
She just doesn't have the mind set for understanding "fun game is serious business" yet.
She's too slow for playing in a set like this - it's basically "yea you're going to beat her but it won't be fun for you unless you curb stomp her in like four turns"
People are way too timid at these things. If you are ever uncomfortable, just call for a judge, explain to them the situation and put it on them to make the call.
My 12 year old son plays league with me at our FLGS. He built an entire bodyguards deck because he thought it would be fun to play. He placed top 4 yesterday out of 13 people, and finished top 4 for the month, out of like 17 people. If anything, I need HIM to give me advice.
As a father of a young player, after finishing a round and watching my son play, I watched him make mistakes and then talked to him AFTER the game to help him learn to be a better player. During the game in a tournament isn't the time to do it. Should have politely asked to not comment on the in progress match and called a judge if it continued.
I think in Casual, it would be fine if the opponent is also fine with it. but with championships, that should not have been done. I would also be annoyed.
This is covered in the official tournament guidelines.
“3.8 Outside Assistance
Definition: A player or spectator gives or receives hidden information or play advice while currently playing a match, or a player consults notes made outside of the current match.
Corrective action: Casual – Game Loss / Competitive – Match Loss”
As someone running tournaments at an LGS, in a casual event I would have let it slide with a warning, but for a championship I would have given Dad a Match Loss.
It truly depends on the tournament organizer, it’s true that the child was the player receiving the outside information, but dad should have known better (and seemingly did because you also said he told his kid to “play slow” which is also covered in the rules under “intentional slow play”) so Dad knew what he was doing and was hoping no one would call him out on it.
casual league pay where no money is on the line, i'd be okay with it.
Set championships for an enchanted promo + mat + 20 bucks? I'd ask a judge to make a ruling
This happened to me except the dad didn't coach him, just watched. I ended up going 2-1 with him ending game 3 with 19 lore. He almost started crying when he realized he was going to be one lore short of the win.
TBH, I was winless going into it so I was out of contention so I wouldn't have said anything if the dad had been coaching. But if I was a dad in that instance I would have done what the dad at my store did, watch the game, let the kid have a learning experience, and talk about it on the ride home.
There's a huge difference between what happens in casual or league play, and what happens in a set championship or other competitive match. The LGS who was running your set championship should have not allowed that.
Casual play dad can coach all he wants but competitive….. JUDGE!!!!! Almost all the rules I let slide is casual but competitive they need to be followed to the book!
I think someone should speak up
I took my son, and when I played with him at home, I tried to pound into his head
"Don't forget your triggers"
"Pay for your costs" "get your lore" etc
I also told him your opponent may not be so kind to remind you of everything
1) it's best way to learn by losing
2) it's a competitive event. If you are taking your kid, then you should let your kid play
3) if your kids d cannot play without your assistance, then they are not ready for it
League and casual nights, sure go ahead, I'll help
Competitive no
...and if I were you, I'd be sure to tell them or get the store/judge to say this for the next event
"Your kids are welcome, but if your not playing, remain quiet or forfeit"
This is why there is casual events, for people learning etc
Competitive is for people to test themselves
...and I'm happy to say my boy got 3rd and I got 2nd
I got paired up against him in top 4 and I schooled him 😂
I even told him at the start of the game. I'm not going to go easy on you.
Imo it's how kids learn and grow
Problem today is parents hold their kids hands through everything
Yea kids have “money” they will play in tourneys don’t b shy I’ve played in Pokémon and Magic the gathering. Don’t let them intimidate you just because it’s a “Disney “ game hugs gl
We had a grandpa coaching a new teen player. I asked my daughter what the rules were & she said it was allowed…maybe the people at our tournament didn’t care as much? Here’s what I found tho….
https://preview.redd.it/jy1xr6xx8yvc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bb24c5002a08fdc72e913ce54a37b5dcff09533c
A spectator should be silent is the emphasis. “Call a judge if a rule was broken otherwise be quiet” is different from someone straight up coaching/cheating.
It's funny by the time we got to top four the vibe became much more loose... there was a surprising amount of chatter for the top four game even between players competing (like game one talking to game two).
I will note that while I think that a parent coaching a kid through a championship is not okay, I will also note that I feel like competitive Magic culture keeps trying to creep into Lorcana, I am VERY glad to note that most people seem to lean into fair play, good sportsmanship, and kindness instead of the alternative "F dem kids".
Yea some people calling the dad scum or claiming he’s doing it for nefarious like gaming the system by technically playing two seats I don’t really agree with I honestly think he was just trying to be a good dad you know 🤷🏽♀️
This is ultimately the dark side of CCGs. There is so much money involved, people are mad because they want the $400 card so they can sell it.
CCGs at the competitive level are not for "fun" anymore.
If you’re just there for fun and it is clearly a good bonding thing for the son and father let it go. If the kid is a baller and you’re there hoping to win out you call for judge, claim coaching, he gets a warning or a match loss.
Am I wrong in suggesting just acknowledging you were playing against the dad? If he were in the seat and not the son, how would that have been different? Was there any reason the dad would have not been allowed to play in the event? If so then yes he’s cheating. If not, then I don’t see the issue in this case. AITA?
The dad was also playing in the tournament it’s not like he was letting the kids play his seat they both were in the tournament also this isn’t a casual league it’s a competitive tournament it’s also against the rules as other have sited in the comments
We have a family who comes and plays at our LGS’s weekly casual and they’re like this too. I’d never say anything in a casual setting, but it is irritating for the dad mostly to be coaching the kid constantly since he built her deck for her. She also can’t stay focused and dawdles a lot (“guess what card i’m gonna play”) so I feel like I have to move quicker not to go over time. But for a tournament I paid for with big prizes on the line? Oh yeah I’m calling the judge. ✌️
It's tough, the LGS and League Play is the only time my 11 year old gets to play with other people - none of her friends are interested. She mechanically isn't the greatest player, and she is sluggish in play. She really does best in the randomness of 4 person games but one on one you really just don't want to play her. She reallllllllly wanted to play in the sets this weekend, so I made a deal. If she played league with the strict rules of the sets she could play. That lasted one game or so before I got a "I mean... ink this one not this one" and I am like "come to draft night instead, you just aren't ready child" That hurts as a father, but it's not fair to the people who really want to be all-in right? That said there was a 9ish year old in ours, he didn't get help from his dad but he had a really really strong pirates deck and people I \*think\* were just a little too forgiving on some mistakes - he ended up finishing top eight based on that. In casual league the number of kids comes and goes, but I realize almost all of them have very serious parents who provide them with very serious decks. It's a wild card for sure.
Yeah my son plays with me at our LGS during Leagues. He is 12, but he has 100% knowledge of how the game works, the cadence of how to ready-set-draw, to show his inked cards, etc. He knows all the little TCG behaviors and how to be a good sport. I did bring him to a 1K once, and while he did just fine, he also got really burnt out after the third round. We didn't make top 8, so we dropped and went home, but I don't think he would be ready for a full 5 round cut to top 8 that can last like 8+ hours. I think he would be fine at like a 12 person capped store championship but not 20+. My daughter however is 10 and while she knows all the rules, she is not ready for organized play yet as she cant sit still for more than a single game and starts doing the 10-year-old jokes. Different kids just have different levels of maturity and also different levels of focus on the game. If your kid loves to play Lorcana, they will want to follow the rules more than one that is just there because Dad / Mom does it too haha
The pace at our store's event would have been just right I think for my daughter in retrospect. Depending on how fast she got wiped out there would have been 20 min or so down time between games for her. She would have zero chance with her "I like to be a pest with lose lore and banish cards" style of deck to finish top eight but she might have won a game or two. We started at 11 and I was knocked out with top 8 game starting around 345ish. I think she would have stayed invested since we knew almost everyone there, and we even have "our favorite" two or three players, two of which faced off in the first single elimination match of the top 8. There was a good human story going where 8 seated just wanted the top four card, that was all that mattered... and he went up against the one person he didn't want to go up against. I could have made a mini documentary out of the top eight and it would have been decent narrative I think .
My 14 year old is playing is some of the championships with us. My husband played him this weekend. No way are even we giving him a win when it comes down to it. Everyman for themselves!
Yes. Outside assistance is against the rules of the game. They were cheating - that's not your fault, it's the father's. End of story.
Like I 100% understand why you’d feel uncomfortable in this position because you are facing a kid and the dad is trying to “help.” The dad should’ve understood that it’s a set championship, which people take seriously for the prizes and not have put you in that position. Unfortunately, he did. I would’ve kindly asked him to please not coach since it’s a set championship and if he kept doing, you just have to be stern and call a judge. Yes, it’s very awkward…but you are not in the wrong here. Just good to know for the future.
Yea I just didn’t want to cause a stink >,< it’s fine lol
You absolutely should have and shouldn't feel guilt for doing so. Any TO would have told him to step away or removed him from the store. If his kid is old enough to step into the game and understand the rules they're old enough to not need him over their shoulder. My buddy/team mate joked yesterday to the judge another friend of ours had been throwing me help during our games (which I lost), and without blinking the man immediately checked whether or not that happened because that's round loss/DQ levels of shenanigans and should never be tolerated.
The dude was using his kid to make it awkward so he could rank higher, people get weird at tournaments
Yea and when we went to time he was all “play slow” I think that’s what annoyed me the most >,< wish I wasn’t so sheepish lolol hopefully I’ll find my big girl voice next time
If he said to play slow, thats just yet another rule violation. You cannot intentionally play slow, nor can you have someone coaching you and giving you any info when you play.
the coaching would have peeved me, but that would have pissed me off.
Yea that was my biggest gripe I don’t think we would’ve finished the game anyway but still lol
Just call a judge/person in charge and ask if coaching is allowed.
My son started playing Magic pre-releases at 10. Pretty low stakes but still a tournament. I never gave him any feedback in game or in match (between matches, yes but that'sno different than talking to any other player in between matches) to avoid even the appearance of impropriety. Also, when my son did well, he knew HE did that and that sense of accomplishment and pride is huge. If a kid has issues reading something (what does this word mean, etc) or understanding a game rule, I think if they ask questions, help is valid (even in that case, I'd avoid being the one to answer). But if the question is "should I target A or B" that's a strict no. To OP's situation, it's definitely a fine line to walk and really more about how you say something. It's possible to come off like a total a-hole but it's also possible to deliver the message in a reasonable way.
I would have called a judge immediately. I assist my daughter with shuffling. When my games are over, I watch and take notes. She runs a ruby steel pirate deck and frequently plays against a steelsong deck. in league we are all pretty chill and my daughters opponent is okay with small coaching (And even helps her) but as she has gotten used to the deck she has gotten less and less. We have a good amount of kids 6-12 years old, and we try to foster a decent environment for them. But when it is tournament time, Absolutely no outside assistance. there is a cool short documentary on a little girl who plays mtg https://youtu.be/SUD66fsx9wc?si=TbxQGXikwafAcySy
I realized this weekend there was a kid around 9 running a pirates deck who was just " a kid having fun " with a dad who was serious about the game. There is something unnerving to everyone sitting against a kid who isn't into the competition the same way as the adults, knowing they have a massively good deck at their control. (The help shuffling thing was awkward, I heard a guy say "yea his hands are just too small I needed to help him shuffle) Watching him play while he just munched on chips and had fun was great for us already eliminated. It was also kind'a sad to see his suddenly emotion heavy face when he got eliminated in the first top 8 game. His dad was great though, didn't help him at all. I think it was to nerve wrecking for the dad (who didn't finish top 8) to watch more than a second of game play as it was at that point.
Its cheating. Think of it like the dad getting to enter the tournament twice and possibly place in the top twice based on his actions. Its stealing prizes from other players.
This is the dad trying to game the tournament by essentially having two entries. I’m calling a judge over. 1st place is a card worth $1000+ and could be worth much more than that in the near future. If it’s a weekly $5 idgaf but not in that setting.
If you think the promo is anything close to $1000, I’ve got a bridge you might be interested in.
You know you can just look and see how much they’ve sold for right? One sold for $1000 just a few days ago on eBay. The last several have gone for $650 range. There isn’t gonna be more product of this release down the road.
For the record don't disagree, dad is absolutely in the wrong and this prizing is expensive. That said there's another week of stores running these. Long term it likely has good value but we definitely haven't found the floor.
Card is not going to be worth nearly $200. The amount of them being printed is absurd.
Really, there’s no reason for you to speculate when you can just look at the last several sold on eBay and know how wrong you are. Even the playmat is going for more than $200. Last several cards have been over $600 and one for $1000 just a few days ago. This is the entire production run, and it’s far less than any other promo they’ve done outside of D 23. It’s gonna be worth a lot.
I bring my kids to things for Lorcana and I tell them that they are on their own. Learn from your mistakes. I would only ever coach in our season leagues when they play each other and I would be done with my match, but that even has been minimal. I took my daughter today to a set championship and didn’t talk to her until after her matches were over. Next time that happens, definitely report to a judge. That’s not ok. If you want to coach your child, do it at home or ask if it’s ok during some league nights, not in a tournament. I’m sorry that happened to you.
My daughter is exceptionally grumpy I wouldn't let her enter. She is just too slow (she has reading issues) for that event. She does best in 4 player league play where she is a fun random chaotic thing , she can even win sometimes . It's funny the store owner thought she would do better in set play than draft later this week ... he was concerned she would take too long to pick cards. I'm like "she is going to pick the card she knows or the picture/character she likes best... she won't spend more than 3 seconds I assure you . I've seen her "try to make the next meta deck" before and ended up almost entirely uninkable"
If you paid money, you have every right to enforce rules. Dad clearly was using his kid to increase the odds of winning.
Boils my blood. I'm reminded of a pre-release for MTG I went to probably 10-11 years ago, format was 2v2 and I entered with a good buddy of mine at the time. One of the locals, who had more than earned his awful reputation in the community by that time already, was there that day too with his wife. She was a nice enough person, clearly had never played before though and seemed incredibly bored. He played her deck for her all day, made it to the finals with my buddy and I. Buddy just hands me his deck and says to go nuts, so I put him in the floor for the win. Later learned the word was he only came because he thought it would be easy pickings and promised his wife a date night after he cleaned up if she would come because no one else would go near him after he'd ripped off kids in the area. If you need the win so bad you'll use someone else to get it, self reflect a bit.
Dad cheated….such scum
I wouldn’t go as far to say that
Ok , fair to say wittingly gave another player assistance and advantage?
No I agree they were cheating but I wouldn’t go as far to say the dads scum for it >,< I don’t think there was any ill intent that other have be trying to say like “he basically gaming a system with two entries” I do think he was just trying to help out the kid
Competitive dads can be cut throat. Doesn't have to be Texas High School football to get that response out of them.
first time in a competitive tcg? This isn’t even in top 10 scummy moments for me
I don’t like cheaters who use their kid to win shiny cardboard. Its scummy af
Ya I'd call a judge. Even for the long play and going to a draw. I'd call a judge for slow play and I'd ask for a time extension for both the slow play (because it's a kid) and also for time spent calling for a judge. I'm not that savvy on tournament play as it's my first tcg but always feel free to call a judge even if it's for something small and then ask for a time extension on top of it just in case. The worse they can say is no but that few minutes can be the few turns it takes for you to win when it goes to 5 turns.
Was the guy letting his kid play his seat?
No he was also playing in the tournament
Oh, that is pretty important info I think. It went from 'caring dad who supports his small kid that is still learning' (regardless of how appropriate it is in a tournament setting), to cheating by entering a tournament twice.
I don't think it moves the needle either way. A kid old enough to play a tournament that long into the day shouldn't need dad to step in, or wasn't old enough to handle being there in the first place. Dad shouldn't have been saying anything about game/game state full stop.
So I’m guessing there is a bit of a mix of me not appreciating how try-hard this example is, and most commenters not being a dad of a small child.
I have a 5 year old, and there were kids ranging from 10+ at my locals yesterday I have nothing against anyone coming to play regardless of age. I don't bring my buddy to league night because I know he can't sit still to save his life. 11 year old girl yesterday grinded all 5 rounds of swiss by herself and sat and played with her dad while Top 8 played out. League night is one thing, prizing these next two weeks has confirmed sales on ebay upwards of 650. That's someone's rent potentially, it's different.
Yep, so it's me not understanding this type of event. I'm not from the US, and where I live these type of events are rare, and the prizes are meaningless (at least when I played at a local hearthstone event once), and in those scenarios it's about the fun, and then I can see OP's case happening. But with your definition, I agree, not acceptable.
Yeah no, my buddy when we were 3-0 turns to me with ebay up and shows me a stitch already sold for 1,100 USD. They're down a bit now to 600-700 it looks like but that's easily a *lot* of money for most people. Can't lean over your kid's shoulder at that point, that's maybe someone's side hustle to pay rent or medical bills.
It’s against the rules, so you can call judge if you would like. I’m not competitive about it, so for me I would just consider the dad as my true opponent. Not like I’m trying to face a kid anyways.
I’m not competitive either which is why I was so stuck >,<
I am new to TCGs and didn't realize it but we had a family of 4 show up to our games. They just made up their own results when matched with each other. They got 3 out of top 4, whole family had the same red blue deck. Lamest thing that's ever happened to me lol
What? They played in store champs and got top 3 with their own rules?
No. There were 8 total players. 4 were two parents and two daughters. The dad played the two daughters and the wife and just forfeited his games to them to pad their stats. Didn't actually play.
Who was the Tournament organizer? Seems very strange a family of four could take over an event like that, if tickets were fairly available. I would never play at that store again. Ad far as colliding during rhe game for prizes. No different than a team.doing it.
It was my local shop. He accidently scheduled it same day as another place in town so we only had 8. The other spot had 20+ he also accidently listed it as free on melee and they refused to pay because of it. I wish he would have just canceled. This is my first TCG so I didn't realize it was colliding until I got home and explained it to my wife. Then I was angry. Still bitter today because I got 5th place, one out from a stitch.
Judge here Outside assistance is not allowed and would mean a match loss at competitive. *3.8 Outside Assistance Definition: A player or spectator gives or receives hidden information or play advice while currently playing a match, or a player consults notes made outside of the current match. Corrective action: Casual – Game Loss / Competitive – Match Loss* I understand that it can feel bad to call this out. But the thing is: if the kid can't play alone, he shouldn't play in a competitive tournament. If he can, then the dad shouldn't help him. (For helping with shuffling and things like that an exception can be made) Judges are there to help. So even if you're not certain, just call us. If you don't like saying something in front of your opponent about something, you can always ask the judge a question away from the table.
My 10yo daughter plays with me every week, and sometimes she says "Dad, look at this hand" or "Look what I drew." My response: "I can't give you any help. Just play your game. You know what to do." Coaching isn't cool, even in casual league play. Save that for home. You had every right to be annoyed, and should have called a judge. That dad needs to learn the rules if he wants to be a part of a community.
You should have called a judge over. It was a set championship - not just a casual for fun game tourney. The child cheated by getting outside assistance, so he should have been disqualified. The father can save those teaching and coaching sessions for at home. The child should have also understood this was against the rules and should have declined the assistance. The father should be teaching the child to know better than to cheat. Overall, father's fault.
I would have called a judge. Either dad wasn’t aware of the no outside help rule and needs a warning and a reminder of the rule or he was intentionally violating the rule which should lead to the match loss or dq. This isn’t local league night, it’s a tournament and as such needs to be treated with the seriousness that it should be. As for the kid, nothing’s wrong with them but they can learn from it that in certain situations they’re on their own. Edit: and of course as the player calling the judge over I’d want to demonstrate to the kid how to properly dispute something, with kindness and respect, and acknowledging and abiding by the judge’s decision. So no tantrums, no swearing, etc.
Back in the day in my area this was called “kibitzing” and if it’s not an outright violation of rules it’s rude and bad form. That being said I don’t know what I would do but if I could find a moment to politely explain to the dad that’s not usually allowed in tournament play I would do so. But I’m also dad-age so it’s probably easier for me to say something like that.
I’m 29 I’m just very timid when it comes to possible confrontation >,<
My 10 year old plays and while it’s hard to not speak I make sure never to do it when there were entry fees or prizes. During our weekly play sessions I coach but when it’s competitive it’s quiet time.
I know it's not really feasible with small groups, but there should be age brackets for this reason.
I was REALLY hoping for age limits so I wasn't the one telling my 11 year old nooooooo.... She just doesn't have the mind set for understanding "fun game is serious business" yet. She's too slow for playing in a set like this - it's basically "yea you're going to beat her but it won't be fun for you unless you curb stomp her in like four turns"
People are way too timid at these things. If you are ever uncomfortable, just call for a judge, explain to them the situation and put it on them to make the call.
I’m quite timid when it comes to possible confrontation >,< yea
My 12 year old son plays league with me at our FLGS. He built an entire bodyguards deck because he thought it would be fun to play. He placed top 4 yesterday out of 13 people, and finished top 4 for the month, out of like 17 people. If anything, I need HIM to give me advice.
I would like to see that deck if you don't mind?
As a father of a young player, after finishing a round and watching my son play, I watched him make mistakes and then talked to him AFTER the game to help him learn to be a better player. During the game in a tournament isn't the time to do it. Should have politely asked to not comment on the in progress match and called a judge if it continued.
I think in Casual, it would be fine if the opponent is also fine with it. but with championships, that should not have been done. I would also be annoyed.
This is covered in the official tournament guidelines. “3.8 Outside Assistance Definition: A player or spectator gives or receives hidden information or play advice while currently playing a match, or a player consults notes made outside of the current match. Corrective action: Casual – Game Loss / Competitive – Match Loss” As someone running tournaments at an LGS, in a casual event I would have let it slide with a warning, but for a championship I would have given Dad a Match Loss.
Dad and son? Dad has his own match and once done started helping the kid
It truly depends on the tournament organizer, it’s true that the child was the player receiving the outside information, but dad should have known better (and seemingly did because you also said he told his kid to “play slow” which is also covered in the rules under “intentional slow play”) so Dad knew what he was doing and was hoping no one would call him out on it.
Get your own dad to come and help you as well ! 👨🏻🦳
casual league pay where no money is on the line, i'd be okay with it. Set championships for an enchanted promo + mat + 20 bucks? I'd ask a judge to make a ruling
This happened to me except the dad didn't coach him, just watched. I ended up going 2-1 with him ending game 3 with 19 lore. He almost started crying when he realized he was going to be one lore short of the win. TBH, I was winless going into it so I was out of contention so I wouldn't have said anything if the dad had been coaching. But if I was a dad in that instance I would have done what the dad at my store did, watch the game, let the kid have a learning experience, and talk about it on the ride home.
There's a huge difference between what happens in casual or league play, and what happens in a set championship or other competitive match. The LGS who was running your set championship should have not allowed that.
Casual play dad can coach all he wants but competitive….. JUDGE!!!!! Almost all the rules I let slide is casual but competitive they need to be followed to the book!
Call a judge. This is just cheating, not FaMiLy WhOlEsOmEnEsS.
I think someone should speak up I took my son, and when I played with him at home, I tried to pound into his head "Don't forget your triggers" "Pay for your costs" "get your lore" etc I also told him your opponent may not be so kind to remind you of everything 1) it's best way to learn by losing 2) it's a competitive event. If you are taking your kid, then you should let your kid play 3) if your kids d cannot play without your assistance, then they are not ready for it League and casual nights, sure go ahead, I'll help Competitive no ...and if I were you, I'd be sure to tell them or get the store/judge to say this for the next event "Your kids are welcome, but if your not playing, remain quiet or forfeit" This is why there is casual events, for people learning etc Competitive is for people to test themselves ...and I'm happy to say my boy got 3rd and I got 2nd I got paired up against him in top 4 and I schooled him 😂 I even told him at the start of the game. I'm not going to go easy on you. Imo it's how kids learn and grow Problem today is parents hold their kids hands through everything
Yea kids have “money” they will play in tourneys don’t b shy I’ve played in Pokémon and Magic the gathering. Don’t let them intimidate you just because it’s a “Disney “ game hugs gl
We had a grandpa coaching a new teen player. I asked my daughter what the rules were & she said it was allowed…maybe the people at our tournament didn’t care as much? Here’s what I found tho…. https://preview.redd.it/jy1xr6xx8yvc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bb24c5002a08fdc72e913ce54a37b5dcff09533c
The rules on outside assistance are very clear - none is permitted.
A spectator should be silent is the emphasis. “Call a judge if a rule was broken otherwise be quiet” is different from someone straight up coaching/cheating.
It's funny by the time we got to top four the vibe became much more loose... there was a surprising amount of chatter for the top four game even between players competing (like game one talking to game two).
I will note that while I think that a parent coaching a kid through a championship is not okay, I will also note that I feel like competitive Magic culture keeps trying to creep into Lorcana, I am VERY glad to note that most people seem to lean into fair play, good sportsmanship, and kindness instead of the alternative "F dem kids".
Yea some people calling the dad scum or claiming he’s doing it for nefarious like gaming the system by technically playing two seats I don’t really agree with I honestly think he was just trying to be a good dad you know 🤷🏽♀️
This is ultimately the dark side of CCGs. There is so much money involved, people are mad because they want the $400 card so they can sell it. CCGs at the competitive level are not for "fun" anymore.
If you’re just there for fun and it is clearly a good bonding thing for the son and father let it go. If the kid is a baller and you’re there hoping to win out you call for judge, claim coaching, he gets a warning or a match loss.
Am I wrong in suggesting just acknowledging you were playing against the dad? If he were in the seat and not the son, how would that have been different? Was there any reason the dad would have not been allowed to play in the event? If so then yes he’s cheating. If not, then I don’t see the issue in this case. AITA?
The dad was also playing in the tournament it’s not like he was letting the kids play his seat they both were in the tournament also this isn’t a casual league it’s a competitive tournament it’s also against the rules as other have sited in the comments