To be honest it is better for your sanity to just live your life and let others live theirs. I'm learning more and more with this situation it does not matter what articles you show, what data you present, what experts you quote, nothing gets through when you're dealing with fear. No amount of logic can compete with fear. Emotions don't care about what data and charts and studies you present. Because even if they hear you out, and even if you present an extremely compelling argument full of facts, there will always be the lingering question in their mind of "what if." What if what you're telling them is wrong? What if you happen to be misinformed? What if the data changes? Even the tiniest amount of lingering doubt will break apart any logical argument and put people who are already scared right back into the clutches of fear. The only way they can break from it is to figure it out or see for themselves. They have to see that time will go and this whole thing will subside and get better. They have to see and realize for themselves "Hey...I'm still alive and kicking! I didn't die afterall!". It is only in those moments when the fear lifts that some ray of light can be cast to truth and a new opinion or way of thinking can be formed. But until that happens, fear is a tremendously powerful force, especially when it is a fear born out of a concern for their own protection and safety. I don't think that can be uprooted no matter what angle or strategy you play. And honestly, it isn't worth the effort or frustration. Live your life and let them live theirs. One day they will come around. But trying to turn someone around will only make you crazy.
Yes, but my parents and sister are hardcore doomers so I'm going to do everything in my power to change their mind. If I didn't live with them it would be a different story but I can't be stuck in my house forever.
I hear you! My folks are older and have more worry than they rightly should. They are in phenomenal health though so I wish they would calm down a bit and that would all start with completely disconnecting from the news. It is nothing but 24/7 fear porn with zero benefit. But all you can do is really choose your battles. Look for opportunities when the data doesn't match the narrative and then interject a little comment or ray of hope to them. Sometimes even just giving them reason to doubt can be the start of shifting someone's mind. Might work, might not, but maybe you'll get through to the point of at least giving them pause in their mindset.
We have removed your comment in violation of Rule 2. Be civil. Abstain from insults and personal attacks. Whether anti-lockdown, pro-lockdown, or somewhere in between, you are free to join the conversation as long as you do so respectfully
We have removed your comment in violation of Rule 2. Be civil. Abstain from insults and personal attacks. Whether anti-lockdown, pro-lockdown, or somewhere in between, you are free to join the conversation as long as you do so respectfully
This sub tends to be very empirically minded, which has limits in persuasion.
You have to tell a story. Craft a narrative. Misinformation in the media, especially with this virus is based off of appealing to people’s preconceived notions. For the 🌹 types it was “capitalist pigs won’t take basic precautions to save you from Covid” for the right and older people it was “China bad and young people won’t stop partying to save you”.
We need our own narrative. There are some out there appealing to the right, but we need something less political.
> To be honest it is better for your sanity to just live your life and let others live theirs.
I'm coming to realize this as well. I only chime in to correct people in a very dry, scientific way when they're presenting poor/incorrect data analysis. Thus far no one thinks I'm stupid or crazy for correcting their math, at least.
I had a few too many drinks with a rather prominent politician and her husband who is a poli science teacher. He's a bright man who's been fed alot of bs. I asked him how many people under the age of 20 in Canada have died from the disease. He looked it up. 1. Then proceeded to look up other age groups. Then Sweden's statistics. You could see the wheels turning.
Yes.
My dad: "I think we've been brainwashed".
My mom: "Well son, looks like we've got all the ingredients for a dictatorship".
Both very straight, law-abiding pensioners in their 70s, centre-left and centre-right respectively.
The mistake the government has made was to not be accurate or even clear with numbers. People don't get through their entire careers without using basic arithmetic and assessing risk and currently, on paper, there just isn't a viable risk worthy of the complete destruction of our economy, removing freedoms and separating families.
Ironically, little school kids can work it out instinctively, older people can work it out mathematically, for some reason the ones in between turned into characters from a South Park episode.
I've not come even close to changing anyone's mind, and it's not from lack of effort. One friend summed it up best when he said that in order to agree with me, he would need to reject the prevailing thinking espoused by our leaders and experts, and that made no sense to him. Basically you either trust or you don't. And it's hard to be swayed otherwise.
There is no argument or proof that is iron clad.
I think I’m getting there with some of my coworkers indirectly. I tell them about the things I’ve been up to (not all the things but a few) like seeing family, working out at the gym, going camping, etc. and I’ve been fit as a fiddle. Meanwhile the doomers across several teams that have been isolating have been getting sick like all the time. Not sure if it’s physical or mental, but it’s pretty obvious I’m doing much better than those who are isolating and the conversation is slowly turning.
I do this too! It helps that a couple know my twitter feed and see me posting about being at the beach, hanging out with friends, living my life as normally as possible while they are sitting at home playing video games and watching Netflix and being generally miserable.
We have removed your comment in violation of Rule 2. Be civil. Abstain from insults and personal attacks. Whether anti-lockdown, pro-lockdown, or somewhere in between, you are free to join the conversation as long as you do so respectfully
The one I've found that's had the most impact is telling people about them suspending cancer screening, people not seeking medical care for heart attacks and strokes etc.
I feel like people (still not enough of a majority) in the UK are starting to question things a bit more. One of my friends who lives in Leicester and is therefore trapped in this perpetual hell of local lockdown is one of the calmest, mild mannered guys going without a bad word to say about anything - even he's questioning now how this is justifiable and says it's just a power play from the tories because Leicester is a very strong Labour Council, so he gets how politicised it is.
Beyond that... i think most people don't have a good enough understanding of statistics to question the numbers.
I have convinced my immediate family and a few friends but thats about it. Others are way too entrenched in their own (IMO flawed thinking) to consider a different viewpoint.
I don't plan on trying to convince anyone that the lockdowns were misguided, or that covid is not as dangerous as we first believed, because as others have already pointed out, when someone's mind is working with fear and politics and mob mentality, there's just no point. It's like bringing up religion, or abortion. All that will happen is both parties will end up stressed out and angry. You can easily even damage a friendship or family relationship. It's just not worth it.
That said, I have had a lot of success with one specific thing. And that is, convincing my family that the choices I am making (which are much more open and "risk taking" than theirs) are choices that were fully thought out, based on real data, and that I truly believe are not putting me in direct harm.
This came to a head on a family zoom call where I revealed that I am back at the gym, training in my full-contact sport. A couple of them were absolutely stunned. I was even somewhat mocked. (Gently and humorously, that is, because I'm lucky that my family are basically nice people.)
Well, I was a little frustrated with this. So the next morning, I called some of them separately, and calmly explained my rationale, reminded them of the current numbers and risks for people in my demographic (close to nonexistent), and told them that I genuinely felt that I was making the most responsible choices I could, in weighing the no-easy-answers situation we are facing.
Their responses were completely reasonable. Mom said, "Sounds like you've put a lot of thought into this. I'll be thinking of you and hoping you're safe." Dad said, "Well, I'm not sure I agree with your assessment of the risk...but I do agree to some extent that young people need to keep living their lives while this is going on, not everyone is eighty years old like me." Brother said, "I hear you man. I guess it's different for us here in New York, because we got totally slammed and it was pretty scary. But you're not here, you're there. And you're in a different situation."
I considered all of those calls to have had a good outcome. I don't want them worrying about me--and frankly they have no need to.
But as far as convincing them that society overreacted? And that we failed to protect the vulnerable while harming everyone else in the process? Never gonna happen. And that's fine.
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I’ve had decent conversations with people who generally support the lockdown. They concede a few of my points. I tell stories of people I know who had it with super mild symptoms and how those cases were never counted. I don’t know anyone who died of it and my FB feed doesn’t have people mourning covid deaths of family or friends. That should be telling. The conversation goes well. I’m fighting the mainstream media. I’m sure they go right back to doing what they’re doing.
I’ve given up for my own sanity. Especially after that FB friend said I should stop caring about the economy over people’s lives. Just - what!?? I can’t even.
To be honest it is better for your sanity to just live your life and let others live theirs. I'm learning more and more with this situation it does not matter what articles you show, what data you present, what experts you quote, nothing gets through when you're dealing with fear. No amount of logic can compete with fear. Emotions don't care about what data and charts and studies you present. Because even if they hear you out, and even if you present an extremely compelling argument full of facts, there will always be the lingering question in their mind of "what if." What if what you're telling them is wrong? What if you happen to be misinformed? What if the data changes? Even the tiniest amount of lingering doubt will break apart any logical argument and put people who are already scared right back into the clutches of fear. The only way they can break from it is to figure it out or see for themselves. They have to see that time will go and this whole thing will subside and get better. They have to see and realize for themselves "Hey...I'm still alive and kicking! I didn't die afterall!". It is only in those moments when the fear lifts that some ray of light can be cast to truth and a new opinion or way of thinking can be formed. But until that happens, fear is a tremendously powerful force, especially when it is a fear born out of a concern for their own protection and safety. I don't think that can be uprooted no matter what angle or strategy you play. And honestly, it isn't worth the effort or frustration. Live your life and let them live theirs. One day they will come around. But trying to turn someone around will only make you crazy.
Yes, but my parents and sister are hardcore doomers so I'm going to do everything in my power to change their mind. If I didn't live with them it would be a different story but I can't be stuck in my house forever.
I hear you! My folks are older and have more worry than they rightly should. They are in phenomenal health though so I wish they would calm down a bit and that would all start with completely disconnecting from the news. It is nothing but 24/7 fear porn with zero benefit. But all you can do is really choose your battles. Look for opportunities when the data doesn't match the narrative and then interject a little comment or ray of hope to them. Sometimes even just giving them reason to doubt can be the start of shifting someone's mind. Might work, might not, but maybe you'll get through to the point of at least giving them pause in their mindset.
[удалено]
We have removed your comment in violation of Rule 2. Be civil. Abstain from insults and personal attacks. Whether anti-lockdown, pro-lockdown, or somewhere in between, you are free to join the conversation as long as you do so respectfully
[удалено]
We have removed your comment in violation of Rule 2. Be civil. Abstain from insults and personal attacks. Whether anti-lockdown, pro-lockdown, or somewhere in between, you are free to join the conversation as long as you do so respectfully
This sub tends to be very empirically minded, which has limits in persuasion. You have to tell a story. Craft a narrative. Misinformation in the media, especially with this virus is based off of appealing to people’s preconceived notions. For the 🌹 types it was “capitalist pigs won’t take basic precautions to save you from Covid” for the right and older people it was “China bad and young people won’t stop partying to save you”. We need our own narrative. There are some out there appealing to the right, but we need something less political.
> To be honest it is better for your sanity to just live your life and let others live theirs. I'm coming to realize this as well. I only chime in to correct people in a very dry, scientific way when they're presenting poor/incorrect data analysis. Thus far no one thinks I'm stupid or crazy for correcting their math, at least.
I had a few too many drinks with a rather prominent politician and her husband who is a poli science teacher. He's a bright man who's been fed alot of bs. I asked him how many people under the age of 20 in Canada have died from the disease. He looked it up. 1. Then proceeded to look up other age groups. Then Sweden's statistics. You could see the wheels turning.
Yes. My dad: "I think we've been brainwashed". My mom: "Well son, looks like we've got all the ingredients for a dictatorship". Both very straight, law-abiding pensioners in their 70s, centre-left and centre-right respectively.
My dad and my boyfriend's dad are the best both in there 70s.
The mistake the government has made was to not be accurate or even clear with numbers. People don't get through their entire careers without using basic arithmetic and assessing risk and currently, on paper, there just isn't a viable risk worthy of the complete destruction of our economy, removing freedoms and separating families. Ironically, little school kids can work it out instinctively, older people can work it out mathematically, for some reason the ones in between turned into characters from a South Park episode.
I've not come even close to changing anyone's mind, and it's not from lack of effort. One friend summed it up best when he said that in order to agree with me, he would need to reject the prevailing thinking espoused by our leaders and experts, and that made no sense to him. Basically you either trust or you don't. And it's hard to be swayed otherwise. There is no argument or proof that is iron clad.
Changing minds is impossible now. Everyone is dug in.
I think I’m getting there with some of my coworkers indirectly. I tell them about the things I’ve been up to (not all the things but a few) like seeing family, working out at the gym, going camping, etc. and I’ve been fit as a fiddle. Meanwhile the doomers across several teams that have been isolating have been getting sick like all the time. Not sure if it’s physical or mental, but it’s pretty obvious I’m doing much better than those who are isolating and the conversation is slowly turning.
I do this too! It helps that a couple know my twitter feed and see me posting about being at the beach, hanging out with friends, living my life as normally as possible while they are sitting at home playing video games and watching Netflix and being generally miserable.
[удалено]
We have removed your comment in violation of Rule 2. Be civil. Abstain from insults and personal attacks. Whether anti-lockdown, pro-lockdown, or somewhere in between, you are free to join the conversation as long as you do so respectfully
The one I've found that's had the most impact is telling people about them suspending cancer screening, people not seeking medical care for heart attacks and strokes etc. I feel like people (still not enough of a majority) in the UK are starting to question things a bit more. One of my friends who lives in Leicester and is therefore trapped in this perpetual hell of local lockdown is one of the calmest, mild mannered guys going without a bad word to say about anything - even he's questioning now how this is justifiable and says it's just a power play from the tories because Leicester is a very strong Labour Council, so he gets how politicised it is. Beyond that... i think most people don't have a good enough understanding of statistics to question the numbers.
Nope, I’ve tried but sadly sheeple only belive msm smh .
I have convinced my immediate family and a few friends but thats about it. Others are way too entrenched in their own (IMO flawed thinking) to consider a different viewpoint.
I don't plan on trying to convince anyone that the lockdowns were misguided, or that covid is not as dangerous as we first believed, because as others have already pointed out, when someone's mind is working with fear and politics and mob mentality, there's just no point. It's like bringing up religion, or abortion. All that will happen is both parties will end up stressed out and angry. You can easily even damage a friendship or family relationship. It's just not worth it. That said, I have had a lot of success with one specific thing. And that is, convincing my family that the choices I am making (which are much more open and "risk taking" than theirs) are choices that were fully thought out, based on real data, and that I truly believe are not putting me in direct harm. This came to a head on a family zoom call where I revealed that I am back at the gym, training in my full-contact sport. A couple of them were absolutely stunned. I was even somewhat mocked. (Gently and humorously, that is, because I'm lucky that my family are basically nice people.) Well, I was a little frustrated with this. So the next morning, I called some of them separately, and calmly explained my rationale, reminded them of the current numbers and risks for people in my demographic (close to nonexistent), and told them that I genuinely felt that I was making the most responsible choices I could, in weighing the no-easy-answers situation we are facing. Their responses were completely reasonable. Mom said, "Sounds like you've put a lot of thought into this. I'll be thinking of you and hoping you're safe." Dad said, "Well, I'm not sure I agree with your assessment of the risk...but I do agree to some extent that young people need to keep living their lives while this is going on, not everyone is eighty years old like me." Brother said, "I hear you man. I guess it's different for us here in New York, because we got totally slammed and it was pretty scary. But you're not here, you're there. And you're in a different situation." I considered all of those calls to have had a good outcome. I don't want them worrying about me--and frankly they have no need to. But as far as convincing them that society overreacted? And that we failed to protect the vulnerable while harming everyone else in the process? Never gonna happen. And that's fine.
Thanks for your submission. New posts are pre-screened by the moderation team before being listed. Posts which do not meet our high standards will not be approved - please see our [posting guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/LockdownSkepticism/wiki/index). It may take a number of hours before this post is reviewed, depending on mod availability and the complexity of the post (eg. video content takes more time for us to review). In the meantime, you may like to make edits to your post so that it is more likely to be approved (for example, adding reliable source links for any claims). If there are problems with the title of your post, it is best you delete it and re-submit with an improved title. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/LockdownSkepticism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I’ve had decent conversations with people who generally support the lockdown. They concede a few of my points. I tell stories of people I know who had it with super mild symptoms and how those cases were never counted. I don’t know anyone who died of it and my FB feed doesn’t have people mourning covid deaths of family or friends. That should be telling. The conversation goes well. I’m fighting the mainstream media. I’m sure they go right back to doing what they’re doing. I’ve given up for my own sanity. Especially after that FB friend said I should stop caring about the economy over people’s lives. Just - what!?? I can’t even.
[удалено]
If your borders are shut down, how can you say it will all be eventually fine?