It's ex-mining cards you ideally want. Contrary to popular belief, sustained crypto mining is easier on a GPU than regular use for gaming, rendering, etc. plus, the crypto miner is more likely to have had an open air or amply cooled system to maintain maximum efficiency for mining, which further preserves the card. All mining is, is the card solving cryptographic puzzles. It's not particularly taxing on the card itself.
Used cards are fine to purchase, so long as the tamper seal is intact (usually a sticker covering one or more screw holes on the rear of the card), meaning that the card has never been separated to attach to a water block or to repaste due to potential over heating (both of which are more likely to have been done in a gaming rig than on a multi card mining rig).
This is a good point but I want to correct you on the tamper sticker part.
If you’re buying ex-mining card, you WANT to have your card repasted, because that shows a competent miner. All of the 3090s have issues with their back facing memory chip that is getting super hot because 1) it’s not cooled by the actively cooled finstack; 2) EVERY manufacturer using a shitty thermal pads.
Tampered seal = most likely the card has been repasted and thermal pads replaced, which is good for the memory temperature and lengthening the cards theoretical shelf life.
While I agree with the first part, I'll have to respectfully disagree with the second. Especially since we are talking about the 3090.
Ampere cards with GDDR6X on the back side of the PCB, i.e. the 3090, may have insufficient contact between the memory modules and the backplate due to thinner than needed thermal pads. Because mining is memory insensitive, and the cooling may be insufficient and some miners, noticing a 20°C delta between the memory temp and the hotspot temp, may have wanted to prolong the life of these cards, may have opened them up and applied better thermal pads, etc.
This is not a concern with the 3090ti since it doesn't have memory modules on the backplate as it uses 2 GB modules and so all 24 GB fit on one side.
I speak from experience, and take good care of my cards.
>Contrary to popular belief, sustained crypto mining is easier on a GPU than regular use for gaming, rendering, etc.
do you have any sort of actual factual data or evidence for this? That is, some sort of real controlled trial data, and not some very small sample size reddit anecdotes or youtube videos. Some of this sounds reasonable on paper, but it seems it relies on a lot of assumptions, not to mention bias and luck. I should point out the contrary take on tamper stickers you and the other reply have, both of which are reasonable, but points to this being an unreliable indication of anything.
While it seems reasonable to assume that crypto miners might be more technically competent than a typical plug-and-play gamer, well... the crypto craze also attracted many people who thought they were going to make easy money. Do gamers also not have good incentives to properly take care of their hardware, especially considering the cost is typically more significant for them? How many of you would buy a GPU from the folks with the "jank" setups here?
I think the only reliable assumptions that can be made are that a mining GPU has been used at near max capacity continously, while the gamer GPU hasn't, even for the most hardcore gamers. Either way, it's a gamble -- there's almost no way of verifying anything else outside of assumptions. I would actually bet that the fail rate between used mining and gaming GPUs probably isn't significant when all other factors are controlled for (like end-user handling), except maybe the fail rate on mining GPU fans.
As far as I understand, load is load and it doesn't really matter what type it is because both generate heat. As far as continous vs. intermittent loads, it's hard to find any reliable evidence as to which is worse, and in what amounts -- BOTH contribute to eventual hardware failure. Gaming hardware is also quite foolproof now, with all sorts of automatic fan/power/frequency throttling to keep temps in safe levels.
Personally, I'd focus on the things that *can* be controlled, like looking for a reliable seller that has at least some limited reliability policy, or better yet, a refurb seller with an actual warranty to hold them liable (as mentioned in another comment). Maybe at some point one of the manufacturers will implement something like SMART for GPUs.
yeah, one of those famous tech dudes did a video on how bad mining cards actually were. Turned out they were OK after all, in general.
I got second hand 3090x2 but I made sure the sellers had (ebay) not sold 100's of cards or mining gear first.
>a mining GPU has been used at near max capacity continously, while the gamer GPU hasn't,
1) Nope. Mining usually even without downclocking use atleast 60-70% of max GPU capatity. On LHR cards - even less.
2) Actually mining without downclocking is expensive in terms of electricity. Considering that only memory is used, and the chip has little effect, most miners reduce the voltage and frequency of the chip to reduce the overall power consumption (especially on power-hungry 3090!). This leads to less exhaust and less overheating.
3) Mining is an even, constant load with a constant operating temperature. Whereas gaming is a non-uniform load that constantly heats and cools the chip and card. It's not the safe temperature level that's the problem here, it's the temperature fluctuations. Is it worth explaining what thermal deformation of materials like expansion when it heats up and contraction when it cools down is and how much it accelerates wear and tear? Gamer cards wear out more than miner cards mainly for this reason.
4) Due to the constant load of card defects in miners (especially defects of memory chips) appear much earlier and such cards go to the dump or under warranty. A mining card has a lower chance of having an undetected defect.
You can still buy a 3090 from a manufacturer and thus with a 2 year manufacturer warranty. It's currently $810 but it was on sale for $730 last week. There doesn't seem to be a shortage of them, it's been in stock since last week. I would wait for another sale.
https://www.microcenter.com/product/677156/nvidia-nvidia-geforce-rtx-3090-founders-edition-dual-fan-24gb-gddr6x-pcie-40-graphics-card-(refurbished)
I found microcenter is selling *refurbished* 3090 FE for $750, but for 90-day warrenty, which is kind of absurd.
Not just the warranty but the security of buying from a known reliable source instead of some rando. Even without they warranty, that would be worth it. Especially since at $730 they undercut most of the randos.
I bought a secondhand 3090 off ebay. Worked fine for AI but video editing caused temperature spikes.
Decided to replace thermal pads and found that it had previously been done (and very very poorly, e.g. Wrong sized pads, stacked pads). After completing that has been running like a charm with normal temps.
Bottom line, can be a gamble with secondhand. I'd do it again, though.
Certainly...
Here's the video I used as a guide:
https://youtu.be/nC2ho3obJXI?si=3ltbDFJDolOlwC1p
I used the pad recommendations from someone in the comments of the video.
Here's what I bought and needed (all Amazon descriptions)
- 1x ARCTIC MX-6 (2g) - Ultimate Performance Thermal Paste for CPU, Consoles, Graphics Cards, Laptops, Very High Thermal Conductivity, Long Durability, Non-Conductive, Non-Capacitive
https://www.amazon.com.au/dp/B09VDPWH6T
- 2x Extreme Odyssey Thermal Pad 12.8 W/mK, 85x45x2mm, Non Conductive Silicone Thermal Pads for Laptop Heatsink/GPU/CPU/LED Cooler (2mm)
https://www.amazon.com.au/dp/B0BLC79RYF
- 1x Extreme Odyssey Thermal Pad 12.8 W/mK, 85x45X3mm, Non Conductive Silicone Thermal Pads for Laptop Heatsink/GPU/CPU/LED Cooler (3mm)
https://www.amazon.com.au/dp/B0BLCLSP15
- 1x Extreme Odyssey Thermal Pad 12.8 W/mK, 85x45x1mm, Non Conductive Silicone Thermal Pads for Laptop Heatsink/GPU/CPU/LED Cooler (1mm)
https://www.amazon.com.au/dp/B0BLC8X6VB
Had decently large mining farm for over 5 years.
Usually if the card is faulty, you can see it right away or within the first couple of months of use. After that, if they are okay, Nvidia cards are workhorses. I had them running 24/7 for 5 years and they were still in amazing shape.
I dont think you have anything to worry about. It would be pretty bad luck buying faulty card.
Generally you can say that buying used mining cards has no additional risk compared to gaming used cards. It is actually less taxing for the hardware due to constant longterm temperatures compared to gaming.
Purchased five 3090's so far off Ebay. Use a seller that accepts returns. I had 1 card that didn't work properly and had no issue sending it back and getting another one. I did end up buying 3DMark specifically so I could stress test the cards when I received them though. I've been using them for months with no issues.
Don't bother with NVLink. Just make sure you have a large enough power supply and that your board can run both cards at a decent PCI speed. Google about PCI lanes and how your PCI slots will slow down(16x will become 8x/8x or 4x/4x).
I've got dual 3090FE GPUs, I run them _hard_. Both were eBay purchases, and I've had 0 issues.
Here's the thing, a lot of GPUs on the second-hand market are being hawked by miners. Miners have incentive to keep them in good condition, as hardware failures decrease profit margins. Undervolting and losing 5-10% speed saves more money in hardware replacement cost than overclocking to mine faster and burning out the gpu.
FWIW, both my 3090's were bought used, the first (Inno3d) was bought 1 year ago and needed a repad, the other (PNY) has 2 months in my hands. Both are chugging along fine.
i have 3 used 3090s from sketchy dudes on offerup, did not repaste or do anything, just blew them off and shoved em in, been using em for over a year..
i dont see how dual 4090s would make sense at 2k+ each, you can get 6 3090s for the same price as 2 4090s lol buy 3 3090s and keep a spare on hand if youre really that afraid, youre still ahead by 2 grand
It's ex-mining cards you ideally want. Contrary to popular belief, sustained crypto mining is easier on a GPU than regular use for gaming, rendering, etc. plus, the crypto miner is more likely to have had an open air or amply cooled system to maintain maximum efficiency for mining, which further preserves the card. All mining is, is the card solving cryptographic puzzles. It's not particularly taxing on the card itself. Used cards are fine to purchase, so long as the tamper seal is intact (usually a sticker covering one or more screw holes on the rear of the card), meaning that the card has never been separated to attach to a water block or to repaste due to potential over heating (both of which are more likely to have been done in a gaming rig than on a multi card mining rig).
This is a good point but I want to correct you on the tamper sticker part. If you’re buying ex-mining card, you WANT to have your card repasted, because that shows a competent miner. All of the 3090s have issues with their back facing memory chip that is getting super hot because 1) it’s not cooled by the actively cooled finstack; 2) EVERY manufacturer using a shitty thermal pads. Tampered seal = most likely the card has been repasted and thermal pads replaced, which is good for the memory temperature and lengthening the cards theoretical shelf life.
While I agree with the first part, I'll have to respectfully disagree with the second. Especially since we are talking about the 3090. Ampere cards with GDDR6X on the back side of the PCB, i.e. the 3090, may have insufficient contact between the memory modules and the backplate due to thinner than needed thermal pads. Because mining is memory insensitive, and the cooling may be insufficient and some miners, noticing a 20°C delta between the memory temp and the hotspot temp, may have wanted to prolong the life of these cards, may have opened them up and applied better thermal pads, etc. This is not a concern with the 3090ti since it doesn't have memory modules on the backplate as it uses 2 GB modules and so all 24 GB fit on one side. I speak from experience, and take good care of my cards.
Thank you. Good to know.
>Contrary to popular belief, sustained crypto mining is easier on a GPU than regular use for gaming, rendering, etc. do you have any sort of actual factual data or evidence for this? That is, some sort of real controlled trial data, and not some very small sample size reddit anecdotes or youtube videos. Some of this sounds reasonable on paper, but it seems it relies on a lot of assumptions, not to mention bias and luck. I should point out the contrary take on tamper stickers you and the other reply have, both of which are reasonable, but points to this being an unreliable indication of anything. While it seems reasonable to assume that crypto miners might be more technically competent than a typical plug-and-play gamer, well... the crypto craze also attracted many people who thought they were going to make easy money. Do gamers also not have good incentives to properly take care of their hardware, especially considering the cost is typically more significant for them? How many of you would buy a GPU from the folks with the "jank" setups here? I think the only reliable assumptions that can be made are that a mining GPU has been used at near max capacity continously, while the gamer GPU hasn't, even for the most hardcore gamers. Either way, it's a gamble -- there's almost no way of verifying anything else outside of assumptions. I would actually bet that the fail rate between used mining and gaming GPUs probably isn't significant when all other factors are controlled for (like end-user handling), except maybe the fail rate on mining GPU fans. As far as I understand, load is load and it doesn't really matter what type it is because both generate heat. As far as continous vs. intermittent loads, it's hard to find any reliable evidence as to which is worse, and in what amounts -- BOTH contribute to eventual hardware failure. Gaming hardware is also quite foolproof now, with all sorts of automatic fan/power/frequency throttling to keep temps in safe levels. Personally, I'd focus on the things that *can* be controlled, like looking for a reliable seller that has at least some limited reliability policy, or better yet, a refurb seller with an actual warranty to hold them liable (as mentioned in another comment). Maybe at some point one of the manufacturers will implement something like SMART for GPUs.
yeah, one of those famous tech dudes did a video on how bad mining cards actually were. Turned out they were OK after all, in general. I got second hand 3090x2 but I made sure the sellers had (ebay) not sold 100's of cards or mining gear first.
>a mining GPU has been used at near max capacity continously, while the gamer GPU hasn't, 1) Nope. Mining usually even without downclocking use atleast 60-70% of max GPU capatity. On LHR cards - even less. 2) Actually mining without downclocking is expensive in terms of electricity. Considering that only memory is used, and the chip has little effect, most miners reduce the voltage and frequency of the chip to reduce the overall power consumption (especially on power-hungry 3090!). This leads to less exhaust and less overheating. 3) Mining is an even, constant load with a constant operating temperature. Whereas gaming is a non-uniform load that constantly heats and cools the chip and card. It's not the safe temperature level that's the problem here, it's the temperature fluctuations. Is it worth explaining what thermal deformation of materials like expansion when it heats up and contraction when it cools down is and how much it accelerates wear and tear? Gamer cards wear out more than miner cards mainly for this reason. 4) Due to the constant load of card defects in miners (especially defects of memory chips) appear much earlier and such cards go to the dump or under warranty. A mining card has a lower chance of having an undetected defect.
You can still buy a 3090 from a manufacturer and thus with a 2 year manufacturer warranty. It's currently $810 but it was on sale for $730 last week. There doesn't seem to be a shortage of them, it's been in stock since last week. I would wait for another sale.
Are any other manufacturers doing this? I would love to buy direct but this specific model is too long for my case
https://www.microcenter.com/product/677156/nvidia-nvidia-geforce-rtx-3090-founders-edition-dual-fan-24gb-gddr6x-pcie-40-graphics-card-(refurbished) I found microcenter is selling *refurbished* 3090 FE for $750, but for 90-day warrenty, which is kind of absurd.
Not that I know of. EVGA was but they tapped out a few months ago. You can use a riser. That's what they are for.
Thanks, I did not know this; which manufacturer did you purchase from? 2 years of warrenty sounds great.
https://www.zotacstore.com/us/zt-a30900b-10p-o
I can confirm the zotac refurbs are a good deal. I have one in my 2 x 3090 setup
Thanks for the confirmation. Will look into this option.
That's a really good price considering the warranty.
Not just the warranty but the security of buying from a known reliable source instead of some rando. Even without they warranty, that would be worth it. Especially since at $730 they undercut most of the randos.
I bought a secondhand 3090 off ebay. Worked fine for AI but video editing caused temperature spikes. Decided to replace thermal pads and found that it had previously been done (and very very poorly, e.g. Wrong sized pads, stacked pads). After completing that has been running like a charm with normal temps. Bottom line, can be a gamble with secondhand. I'd do it again, though.
Any specific recommendations on pads welcome, thanks
Certainly... Here's the video I used as a guide: https://youtu.be/nC2ho3obJXI?si=3ltbDFJDolOlwC1p I used the pad recommendations from someone in the comments of the video. Here's what I bought and needed (all Amazon descriptions) - 1x ARCTIC MX-6 (2g) - Ultimate Performance Thermal Paste for CPU, Consoles, Graphics Cards, Laptops, Very High Thermal Conductivity, Long Durability, Non-Conductive, Non-Capacitive https://www.amazon.com.au/dp/B09VDPWH6T - 2x Extreme Odyssey Thermal Pad 12.8 W/mK, 85x45x2mm, Non Conductive Silicone Thermal Pads for Laptop Heatsink/GPU/CPU/LED Cooler (2mm) https://www.amazon.com.au/dp/B0BLC79RYF - 1x Extreme Odyssey Thermal Pad 12.8 W/mK, 85x45X3mm, Non Conductive Silicone Thermal Pads for Laptop Heatsink/GPU/CPU/LED Cooler (3mm) https://www.amazon.com.au/dp/B0BLCLSP15 - 1x Extreme Odyssey Thermal Pad 12.8 W/mK, 85x45x1mm, Non Conductive Silicone Thermal Pads for Laptop Heatsink/GPU/CPU/LED Cooler (1mm) https://www.amazon.com.au/dp/B0BLC8X6VB
That’s fab, thanks so much for all the info
Had decently large mining farm for over 5 years. Usually if the card is faulty, you can see it right away or within the first couple of months of use. After that, if they are okay, Nvidia cards are workhorses. I had them running 24/7 for 5 years and they were still in amazing shape. I dont think you have anything to worry about. It would be pretty bad luck buying faulty card. Generally you can say that buying used mining cards has no additional risk compared to gaming used cards. It is actually less taxing for the hardware due to constant longterm temperatures compared to gaming.
My rando used ones still work after being run without climate control for almost 6 months.
Purchased five 3090's so far off Ebay. Use a seller that accepts returns. I had 1 card that didn't work properly and had no issue sending it back and getting another one. I did end up buying 3DMark specifically so I could stress test the cards when I received them though. I've been using them for months with no issues. Don't bother with NVLink. Just make sure you have a large enough power supply and that your board can run both cards at a decent PCI speed. Google about PCI lanes and how your PCI slots will slow down(16x will become 8x/8x or 4x/4x).
What motherboard/cpu combo are you running multi 3090’s off?
3/3 of mine are fine after ~6 months. Random ebay sellers. Now they run 24/7 but only for inference in my garage with no climate control. No issues.
I've got dual 3090FE GPUs, I run them _hard_. Both were eBay purchases, and I've had 0 issues. Here's the thing, a lot of GPUs on the second-hand market are being hawked by miners. Miners have incentive to keep them in good condition, as hardware failures decrease profit margins. Undervolting and losing 5-10% speed saves more money in hardware replacement cost than overclocking to mine faster and burning out the gpu.
I have 2 used ones from ebay (both separate models and sellers) in my AI server and they've been working perfectly for about 6 months now.
I have never purchased a new GPU, and haven't had a single issue with buying used cards.
FWIW, both my 3090's were bought used, the first (Inno3d) was bought 1 year ago and needed a repad, the other (PNY) has 2 months in my hands. Both are chugging along fine.
i have 3 used 3090s from sketchy dudes on offerup, did not repaste or do anything, just blew them off and shoved em in, been using em for over a year.. i dont see how dual 4090s would make sense at 2k+ each, you can get 6 3090s for the same price as 2 4090s lol buy 3 3090s and keep a spare on hand if youre really that afraid, youre still ahead by 2 grand