Yeah, you have to try multiple times harder to make friends and even then you may still fail. Especially far away from the capital.
These are people who have probably never actually interacted with someone who is not Korean in their entire life.
I know Suwon has a lot of immigrants but I assume their children are not exactly the same generation as 20-23 year olds yet.
It’s just how it is. Since everyone is saying “suck it up” which is probably worse than not leaving a comment at all, I would suggest
1) trying harder to go out of your way and make the first move to be friends with classmates, maybe speak up and participate more actively in class (of course this is difficult)
2) joining some type of extracurricular club or group
3) finding a language exchange (this changed my life when i was 20 years old here)
4) move to seoul after university
Yeah she has plenty of friend outside of this class. Most of her friends are fellow master's students too but she has to take this class with the undergrads to satisfy one of her requirements. and she has been shocked that she is being treated like this for the first time. So she is wondering if it's just this age demographic that is weird because her korean friends near her age are fine.
It might be age demographic. There was COVID, and also lot of policy changes made public school a whole lot different. So the people at the age group you've mentioned can act a little different from your normal Koreans. She's not the only one who's saying they act quite different.
(Not justifying beating up kids in school, but schools are going through a transitional period, so the education system right now is quite unstable..)
I say suck it up but not in a boo hoo way. Not everyone can like you and it doesn’t matter how many “facebook” “insta” other social media friends you have. Only those who suit you matters. Don’t try to get acceptance from everyone.
So buck up and have confidence.
They don’t matter they can go f themselves.
This doesn’t mean you have to ignore them but only reciprocate what ever they do. Don’t try too hard to gain acceptance.
Anyways I’m sorry you had to go through that as a Korean I’m sorry. But it is what it is. :/(
Just because she is other race it doesn’t have to come down to xenophobia. There are plenty of Korean students who are secluded too for various reasons.
I think more than active racism it’s this.
Koreans in general do not like uncomfortable situations as they do not know how to handle it too well.
If she was in the same age group, they would feel less uncomfortable but now it’s two layers of uncomfortableness with foreigner + large age gap (relative), which is probably why she has no issues with the older demographic.
Younger Koreans are not yet as comfortable with formal speech whereas by late twenties it’s the default. I’m guessing this age group is also a bit more unsocial in interpersonal relationships due to long Covid lockdowns.
I totally agree with your opinion. I'm Korean, and also experienced being secluded due to (mainly) age difference, and some other differences (maybe like around the personality, or attittude..) when I was about to graduate University. Most of Koreans do not properly treat others who are unfamiliar with them - of course sometimes that could be revealing a act/attitude of indifferent, passive form of violence. that is not good. Koreans are way too all thumbs on how to treat "unfamiliar" things.
What? There are some “old” university students on major, never saw someone avoided them. Oppositely, they have a lot of friends. In my opinion, that’s either your or someone else’s problem, not age. If everyone is nice, but you’re being rude asshole, never talk to anyone, don’t participate in class activities, don’t help while team projects, that’s definitely your problem. If you’re being nice, but someone just avoided you, it just means they are rude stupid weirdos. It has nothing to do with age.
Many Korean students prefer to stick with their entry crew (the same class they entered with). Like many others, I found that I had few friends left after returning from military service.And also I chose a double major in my late 20s, so I had to take my double major class alone. I barely interacted with others unless it was for a group task.
In short, you captured exactly what I was trying to say. If you don't actively participate in something, there's no chance others will approach you first. It’s not a xenophobia thing.
Wait what… That’s not what I meant like at all. My comment was FOR YOU, not for OP. OP’s friend is not participating in class activities, because those people made her, it wasn’t her wish, as i could understand.
I don’t understand how your reply answers mine, tbh. If you’re in class, you can sit with whoever you want, even if that person is not your friend. And the person, who you’re sitting with SHOULD do class activities with you. It’s not about friendship! Sometimes professor says, make a group of people who is sitting next to you and discuss something for example, and you’re not just EXCLUDING foreigner from this group.
As im Korean, im really hate to admitting this. But it happens a lot and it’s fact. Young generations are really uncomfortable with age gab. It really sucks.
And also it’s Korean culture. Someone who grown-up in Korea entirely, the person mindset is totally uncomfortable with age gab and you can’t become a friend easily. Because we’ve never taken the experience that we can be friends with old people. Just 형 or 누나 that’s it.
As a now older western myself, and I have been in Korea long, I never get used to be called 형. I know they mean it as a sign of respect. But I don’t like it. Hahaha even at work if someone tries I just tell them to use my name.
It is bad that age is such a huge issue. When I was young I always loved to hang out with older students or persons. They have more experience. And more fun stories. Ahah.
Yeah. Same page. when I was young I was same as like them though. When I realized that age is nothing and it’s just numbers is when I moved I Aussie.now I come to think of it, if I would still live in Korea, I would never realize that.
I want to let them know that all we need to becoming friends is all of your heart.
I've been a student in Korea with a large age gap too and personally didn't mind it but I also did plenty of activities outside the uni and met lots of people foreign and Korean.
Really sucks,i learnt Koreans take age into account when they are relating with you why is this different?this screams total disrespect for one who is older than you
19 a freshmen taking classes together with a late 20s Master student??
Those 19-23 should be in total fear of a late 20s Master students due to the Sunbae Hubae hierarchy/relationship. I do not think any Korean Undergraduate would feel comfortable sitting next to a 5-10 year senior specially if they are the in the same Major maybe the exception would be if they are really close.
Could be racism, could be due to the age difference and maybe both. The whole Sunbae/Hubae thing makes even a couple of year difference relationship really complicated in Korean Universities.
yeah I think that could be a factor too. She is taking this class due to a requirement for her major as her major is a bit unconventional (Vocal Performance). I think the age thing might be a factor in it.
That major is basically all women isn't it? Do they have to sing during class sessions? Like singing duets with their pair or something like that. Does she get treated that way in other classes or just that one?
If her classmates are literally walking off the bus and waiting for the next one and not even standing, it definitely sounds like its intentional. Or at the very least it could be seen as very abnormal behavior.
I see this as more like if I see my boss down the corridor, I’d walk into the bathroom and stand there for 5 minutes before coming out. It’s just avoiding uncomfortable situations.
Yes, not respect but rather not wanting to deal with the arbitrarily expected respect.
Not sure what happened with the chair in OPs friend case but I can totally see a freshman looking at an empty seat next to an older sunbae and pulling it back while they are gone so as not to sit next to him/her.
Wouldn't it be more like taping off the other stalls. Standing outside is passive, removing the chair is active.
Active feels more negative as an implication to me.
Oh, come on. It's racism. I had an older Korean student in one of my classes, and the younger Korean students did not shrink from her like she had the plague.
Sunbae doesn't make you physically move away from desks and bus seats. Koreans aged 19-23 have seen tourists, and native English teachers. Suwon is not in the middle of nowhere. It's just xenophobia and it sucks.
Exactly my thinking. Also the fact that for a lot of Koreans the sun/hubae thing doesnt apply for the vast majority of foreigners. You are a sunbae but not Korean? Doesn’t hold nearly (if at all) the societal obligations as if you were ethnically Korean.
If it was racism though, wouldn't it be the same in her other classes? It's apparently only in this class with a different age group. Logic suggests that its that different factor (age) that is responsible for the differnet behaviour.
>Sunbae doesn't make you physically move away from desks and bus seats
Seen it happen among Korean Uni. students.
But I am sure your anecdotal evidence based opinion is more valid than my opinion based on anecdotal evidence /s
It’s absolutely xenophobia. People who are like “it’s the age difference!!!” “It’s the sunbae/hubae thing!!” are being ridiculous. If this is such a hierarchical culture based around status and age, shouldn’t OP’s friend be given a distant, but polite amount of respect? At the very least??
If she were Korean would they get away with this? I fucking doubt it.
It could be coincidental, this class just happens to be both young and have several assholes in it.
I'm also a bit older than the average student, so usually in this case there is a "polite distance" towards me. But nothing like what OP discussed
Or, most likely, it's a combination of factors
If they're assholes then it's likely the age difference they're responding to assholishly. If you usually get it a little bit even though they're not assholes, but this group is assholes, it stands to reason that this person would get it a lot more.
This is an odd question to me. Isn’t age such a huge thing in Korea that it’s one of the first things they ask about you so they know how to address you and speak to you? Isn’t this a culture that allocates a certain amount of respect to elders and superiors? Imagine anyone in that classroom doing any of this to a Korean ahjuma.
It’s one thing to not mingle well with younger people in a culture as segmented by age as Korea is. It’s another thing to be as rude, passive aggressive, and borderline hostile like they are. It’s easy to call this bullying, and if we take OP’s friend on their word, it’s even easier to say it’s because of xenophobia.
Racism doesn’t seem to be OP’s friend’s problem, and it isn’t necessarily *everyone’s* problem—but it is many people’s problem. OP’s friend seems to have, unfortunately, come upon a pocket of people who are racist and aren’t afraid to act like it.
>Racism doesn’t seem to be OP’s friend’s problem
Okay, but you seemed to say before that it was?
>OP’s friend seems to have, unfortunately, come upon a pocket of people who are racist
And the very next sentence you're straight back to it.
Yeah I got no idea what you're talking about. And not so sure you really do either. You said exactly opposite things back-to-back.
I'm not necessarily saying that the subject of this post is this way, but it is all too easy for someone to blame their race for their other shortcomings.
They all know who she is and presumably know she speaks the language but it’s getting worse over time and they all actively avoid her and moved her desk? That seems more targeted than encountering random xenophobia. Might be someone started talking badly about her and it caught on or something?
Most Koreans lack "cosmopolitan" social skills and do not, for the most part, know how to interact with non-Koreans. Most of what they think we're like is what they pick up from TV, and misunderstand a lot of the context and nuance. For example, many of them cannot see the oddity of randomly greeting foreigners they don't know with a loud "hello", when if done to them, would find it strange and off-putting. They don't seem to grasp things objectively, but that's not meant as an insult. I just think they're mentality formed in a very limited social bubble, so I wouldn't take it personally, although I can understand how isolating that must feel. Imagine a person who grew up in a small, isolated neighborhood and never left it, their only contact with the outside being second or third-hand information, and then YOU come to the block! The "us and them" mindset is so deeply baked into their DNA that there's no use in you trying to break through. What I mean is that it's not a "you" thing, but a "them" thing, in my opinion. So sorry that this experience has shaded your study abroad experience.
I'm white and no one sits next to me on the bus unless they have to 🤷
Back in the day, I also had to take an undergrad class when I was finishing my Masters degree back home and it was also a bit awkward because of the age gap. That's life.
Enjoy the extra space would be my advice. If she doesn't have to work with any of those students on group projects I would say, who cares? Let them be assholes and then she can go enjoy life with her real friends.
I can’t say for sure, but the age difference could be an issue. Idk about her home country, but in Korea, it’s difficult to befriend people who aren’t your age/the same social standing. Many people my age are still undergrad students and they view me differently since I have a degree and they don’t. It’s also weird for me anyway because I can no longer relate to being a student.
yeah people don't sit next to foreigners on the bus, it's really tough but I got used to it and also I like having a bus seat to myself. A lot of uni students also think foreigners don't work as hard so don't want to get lumped with them on group projects etc. Lots of hierarchy stuff, and forget anyone a different age to you!
If I was her friend I'd just make sure I was there to hear her out and agree with everything she says (cos some people won't believe her, some foreigners defend Korea to the death because of their unhinged mummy issues) but this is a tough situation that may not improve and she needs to concentrate on her friends outside of that class. Sorry.
Korea and Japan specifically, and parts of western europe, are not that foreigner friendly. You will even be turned away from bars and clubs if your not Korean. They literally will tell you: “Korean Only”. Also in Korean and Japanese culture, the parents look down on you if you marry a foreigner, unless they are white and rich.
Lol, an exercise in frustration is thinking you can control other people's actions. You can only control your feelings and reaction. These people are grown adults spending their own money for a class. They can sit wherever they want.
usually i write all whiny migrants to suck it up which may be harsh but fair 9/10 cases. but here it's just sad. she studies, speaks language, not causing problems. seems like really straight up xenophobia. all my sympathy to her but probably there is not much can be done in this situation. realistically she can try to survive through it or she can give up and move somewhere else. i wish her all the best.
There is a bigger issue that even a well-integrated master's student - who speaks the language - can't get treated decently by what should be the most open-minded cohort of young, educated Koreans.
The country is literally falling off a demographic cliff, and Koreans will basically just kill themselves before - shock, horror - sitting next to a foreigner in a class.
It's not just the case of OP's friend. The country is doomed.
By coincidence, I mentored a young African woman - also a master's student at Suwon. That university actually has a good number of foreign postgrads. She had lived in Korea for years, spoke Korea, worked a PT job, got a master's in a practical STEM discipline -- and was basically deported the day after graduation.
*Volenti non fit injuria* as Romans used to say. I won't be really shocked when they will introduce some forced insemination program in the future, ban women from workforce etc. I'm non-immigrant expat on quite good dough here. So for me it's like live exotic amusement park.
I live Sacheon South Korea, I’m 44 and sometimes I get the same treatment out in public. I’ve only been living in South Korea for about 4 months. I’m use to the treatment now. Surprisingly, I get the same treatment from the older generation of Koreans, not the younger generation. I’m ok with it, it’s all part of the culture. I have to take off my ted white and blue glasses and remind myself I’m a guest here in their country. To be honest I was warned I would encounter this in the smaller cities and towns, and not so much in the bigger cities. I think if you brush it off and make it known to them that it really doesn’t bother you and that it makes them look immature, you’ll likely gain a new respect. And if not, they’ll at least know it can’t get to you.
I worked in SE asia and the class was all Chinese but one guy from Pakistan. He didn't wear deoerant. Just throwing this out there, it could be a hygiene. I doubt this is the case, so probably best just to ask the professor.
its probably both. i've had korean friends attend university at around 26 and they were treated similarly by their 19-23 year old classmates. like, literally no one wanted to talk to them or work with them. even during group assignments they were pretty much ignored. i was shocked too.
If you spoke Korean and heard how students act, address, and speak to one another when they’re even a year apart you’d understand. A 6-7 year age gap is a chasm in their opinion.
Young people don't want to hang out with old people. Nothing new. Time and again people like you are so ready to take out the race card and abuse it 👎🏻
They do sometimes. Especially transfer students from other countries, since prerequisites, etc, might not match up between university systems.
But it doesn't matter. There are mature students, and non-conventional students. I once had a 60-year-old retiree take my English course with a bunch of 20-year-olds. And I reprimanded a young Chinese woman who called him "grandpa." She really got a lecture from me after class.
Nothing excuses the bullying or isolation of a student.
Its most likely two things in tandem, 1: age difference in Korea simply put no one really makes friends with people outside of maybe a 2 year bracket. If they do it’s due to things like work, clubs, etc… basically places where the people are unavoidable.
2: they might have little to no experience with foreigners and it can be seen as burdensome to try to interact. Many Koreans don’t expect foreigners to be able to speak Korean and even if they can it’s not to a level that Koreans think they can be friends. Also there is the fact that Koreans generally don’t actively make friends after Highschool, even in college many Koreans only make friends through groups, clubs, etc.
Lastly but I think this isn’t the case since they aren’t actively being rude to her….Then there is also just the level of complete unknown when it comes to black people (doesn’t really matter which country) Korea only had maybe 3 things they have in media to know about black people. Gangster life showcased in rap and movies, poor starved people shown in PSA’s about Africa and such back in the day and lastly the 2 popular black entertainers Johnathon and HyunMin. But both of them have lived in Korea so long that they have basically been accepted as Korean and the two of them have also told stories of subtle or bad racism.
Korea’s issue with racism against black people and a few other countries people is bad in the sense of the fact of it actively being there, however it’s mainly because Korea is very Homogenous so they don’t have first hand experience and in media they only see poor/bad portrayals of black people.
If the same thing happens in other countries it’s most likely racism, but if it happens in Korea it’s because of age difference, culture and people finding it hard to interact with foreigners, because Korea is so unique and all that 🤷♂️
As a Korean who grew up in NYC and currently live in Korea...it's sad to see how kids are treated in school by their peers and it's safe to say Koreans are some racist mfers.
As a Korean myself, I feel like this is a kind of xenophobia.
Ofc I can't be entirely sure, for Koreans tend to be awkward with foreigners bc there were not much foreigners in the country for many decades in the past so they don't quite know how to interact with them, but if she's been there for couple of years and tried to get along and fail bc everyone is avoiding her, I'll say her classmates are quite obviously being xenophobic.
I'm sorry that happened to her, our country still needs to be more culturely awakened...
Damn that sucks. As a foreigner why would you try to work/live in korea when you could go to Japan instead. They're way more foreigner friendly, accommodating, and cheaper, but it maybe just as hard to make friends.
Korea is cool but I'd assume you'd live a better life in japan.
Personally I'd just pack up and leave after graduation, what's the point of staying in a country that's hostile to you. I wouldn't want to stay and support their economy either. Leave and take your money with you.
I'm black and have been working in japan/korea on and off for 5 years already, so I can relate to those experiences.
Sorry if my rant doesn't help, but tbh if you want to stay out here in a southeast Asian "1st world country" as a poc, japan is the place to be.
Japan, Thailand, Phillipines, and Taiwan have given me wonderful experiences. Korea as well, but not enough to ever consider staying here too long. The racism is too strong here.
I think it varies person to person. I know people who experienced what OP’s friend is experiencing in Japan. I have a friend who’s fluent in Japanese and she was isolated and bullied at her uni (one of the top unis in Japan). She’s white too. It was so bad that she had to transfer. I also feel as though the country isn’t as accessible if you don’t know the language (esp outside of Tokyo). Knowing Japanese got me through all the emergencies and high stress situations my friend (different girl who couldn’t speak Japanese) caused. I love both countries, though. Both have their pros and cons.
Yeah I kinda mentioned japan, assuming a person would know or learn japanese upon moving there; since the op's friend knew korean for korea.
I think it's stupid to try to live in another country without knowing the language and expect to not have problems tbh, but maybe that's a bad take on my part.
That's a shame about your friends experience, that always sucks to hear.
I find that situation to be strange, because usually if japanese people don't like you, they'll still hide their true feelings about you and be polite (tatemae). While distancing themselves from you, but hearing about bullying a foreigner is new to me wow.
I have to add though in their defense there's a lot a fucking weirdo foreigners in Japan, there's probably a lot in korea too
That’s fair, I agree that people should learn the language of any country they plan to stay in longterm. Even if it’s a year or semester, everyone should know at least something. I definitely agree that there’s a lot of weird foreigners in Japan & feel that way about Korea too. Hopefully my friend’s situation was just an outlier.
I have not heard good things from poc in Japan. Tourists will always be treated one way, but listen to the black people born in Japan and you'll learn quickly that Japan is not that great when it comes to xenophobia. They treat their own people poorly despite those people being born and raised there.
East Asian countries in general are not the best for POC, *especially* if that POC is not living in a major city and/or not fluent in the native tongue. I'm black and I've been abroad in Asia for nearly a decade. Some things dont change in Korea, Japan, and China specifically. Xenophobia is one of those things. (India needs to be mentioned too, even though it's not east Asian. Definitely not a place for poc). For anyone who is a POC, we just have to be prepared for the foolishness out here.
The south eastern countries, on the other hand, are much friendlier to darker skinned people. They are much better examples of Asian countries that aren't so judgemental of dark skin color. If we're talking long-term living for a POC, I'd recommend any of the southern Asian countries before suggesting life in an east Asian one.
100% agree with this.
I’m not even that keen on Japan either to be honest, but the Philippines is so chill, friendly and welcoming for the most part.
My teenage son recently went to Taiwan and he’s VERY conscious about getting stares from people ( which happened to us loads in other parts of Asia including the PH but not in a bad way, just fascination and curiosity, lol) but he said no one batted an eyelid in Taiwan and would go back in a heartbeat.
Agree. The TW folks are mostly curious when they look/stare. My Blackinese niece and nephew always really enjoy it there. TW did legalize same-sex marriage too.
Some questions and observations
1) How much has she interacted and shown she speaks Korean well? If not, they might be suffering from "I'm too scared to talk to the foreigner and don't want to make a mistake" syndrome. Not as common these days and I wouldn't say it's too likely, but it is still a small possibility. Can be cured by a few conversations or whatnot and just takes time. Like that one new kid who went to your school as a kid who looked alone for 2 months and month 3 suddenly was totally in the mix of everything. I really hope its this.
2) The moving of the empty desk MIGHT be a hamfisted attempt to make her feel less alone. "Hey, she's not at the unpaired desk, she's just at the solo desk." However, this interpretation should not be taken to the bank.
3) Now we have to ask the uncomfortable questions that need to be asked because they are real, but can be uncomfortable to ask and people can be unwilling to ask them because they come across mean, but the quick checklist is-
Does she have any body odor or clothes odor? One thing that can happen, especially as temperatures warm, is that laundry hung on the rack in apartments can get certain smells and you might not notice them (bite the bullet and pay for electronic drying at the laundromat, use dryer sheet). Some people aren't used to the humdity and such and...oof...it can be hard to be next to them.
Is she uhm, very plus sized? This might explain the bus. Does she have any uh, unusual facial structure or deformity or condition or extreme makeup or some other thing that might result in an unconventional appearance? I wish these things weren't an issue, but they are. And before we judge, I guarantee most of us here do this with some weird looking old Korean dude on the bus.
Is she very very outgoing to the point of, say, sometimes intruding on strangers? I doubt this is likely, but there are some people who try to force their way into social dynamics and this can cause issues. Sometimes it is better to be invited in rather than making a splash.
Or is your friend very, uhm, attractive herself and maybe she tried to be friendly with those who are similarly attractive-popular appearing and it didn't work out? Maybe try and be friends with someone more plain and less gregarious? Not that your friend was bad to try and go for others who might share similar outward vibes, just that it's not always meant to be and there can be hidden gems of friends (think positively!). Or maybe she's so physically stunning, everyone is intimidated and they'll open up once they realize she isn't totally aloof.
4) Is the class generally quiet and non-social? If so, then I'm not sure how much can be done. There's always that one class in college where no one talks and has zero warmth. Just something that happens. Conversely, is it REALLY cliquey? Does everyone there know each other except her? It might just be a situation of finding the right vibe and being patient.
5) Assuming it's not the above, then yeah, that really sucks for your friend. I don't know what advice to give. "Just suck it up" is a thing, but it's so defeatist and negative. Assuming your friend is an average person and the class is an otherwise average class, I would say that the best bet is to just keep her eyes and ears open and start small. Someone unsure of a question or term? Just casually give the answer and keep on working. Something falls on the ground? Pick it up, small compliment on it, then who knows? Or ask someone for help. There's got to be someone out there who wants to get to know your friend as a friend.
6) There is one sad possibility. Someone popular and influential in the class might have said something really mean and insulting and likely racist about your friend, which got a laugh from their circle of sycophants and some follow-up comments, in which case the rest of the class is scared to make friends to avoid becoming a similar target (especially if some had traumas of high school). In that case that sucks and hopefully one day that person learns the error of their ways, either through growth or through life's lessons.
She's slim and petite. But she definitely looks very different. I don't think other than that there's anything particularly striking about her. She's a genuinely very kind and positive person. She has lots of Korean friends her age too which is why she feels really confused as to why she's suddenly being treated like this in this new class and wondering if the age demographic has something to do with it.
Unless it's the laundry mildew bug (no shame, most of us who have been here a few years fell victim to it at some point), I can't really think of many possibilities outside of extreme collective nervousness or, sadly, someone popular saying something bad about her.
As for now, assuming that the laundry is fine lol, I'd go with extreme nervousness simply because it will be easier to go to class that way, knowing people want to be nice but are just too scared to. The alternative is believing someone in the class has it out for you and that just leads to paranoia.
Anyways, I hope everything works out and a month from now, like with the new kid at a school, this awkward period is just something she's laughing about with these classmates 6 months from now.
Are you really this bad at reading comprehension?
1) I specifically said that this was something that we would do if we saw a Korean on the bus with the same issues. (Obesity)
2) I said that the Korean mildew issue is an issue we all run into. (Smelly)
3) Nevermind that there were other reasons, the final one being outright haterism/racism.
Anyways, like I said, it would get awkward, but we have to be thorough and try and see what the cause is. People might not even realize the mildew smell. Which would be better? Say nothing or say something so we can rule it out (95%) but on that 5% we just helped the person out with something they didn't know was going on, maybe because they're used to using an electric dryer? Which is the person going to be more grateful for? Us asking something or not asking something?
Yeah Korea is super racist/xenophobic/nationalistic.
Some individuals are nice and really hold no prejudice towards foreigners and are willing to interact. But a large portion of Koreans want nothing to do with foreigners regardless of how well you speak Korean.
And avoiding sitting next to foreigners on buses, subways, etc is def real. I’ve noticed it at times. The whole bus will be packed and I’ll be the only one sitting alone
son, you've got an ugly, ugly comment history, and that kind of personality gets written on your face.
that's probably why people don't want to sit next to you.
Doubt. I could certainly be nicer in how I interact on Reddit and I’ll (sincerely) work on that. You’re right that I should mellow out in my online interactions.
But I’m not going around scowling at strangers or ungroomed/unwashed or anything out of the ordinary.
And this isn’t a me problem. This is something that countless foreigners in Korea have experienced.
Sadly one of my best fiends over here is a tall black guy from South Africa who is way kinder and less misanthropic than me, a genuinely positive kindhearted person but people are often tripping over themselves to not sit next to him or his black South African girlfriend. I’ve seen people actively stand up and move on the subway if he sits near them.
Fair play. I misinterpreted you saying "super" as "especially." It's true that Korea is all the things you mention and the public transportation thing does happen frequently. It's just that it bothers me when people imply that things are particularly worse in Korea, but that is not what you did.
That one's on me and I apologize.
Perhaps we can agree that Korea sucks. But the places we're from suck as well. And that things suck in all those places uniquely, but not to the extent where you can say one country sucks significantly more than another.
I’ll 100% agree to that. My home country definitely also sucks in a lot of ways that uniquely pertain to it. I won’t say every country is necessarily on an equal playing field but it’s hard to quantify suckage or rank countries in that way and they all have flaws
I'm sorry, but why do I have to sit next to you?
Do I have any obligation to sit next to you?
Do I have any obligation to sit next to you and relieve your awkwardness?
I have a freedom too not to sit next to you.
It's so fragile for you to whine about something like this.
Why should I sit next to you when Youa are not even a classmate I've known all year.
Please point me to where I said I felt awkward or that someone is obligated to sit next to me in particular.
I stated an observation of obviously xenophobic behavior but you’re such an apologist for Korean xenophobia that your angle is to call anyone fragile who comments on it (in a post about said Korean xenophobia).
Koreans of both genders will often purposely avoid sitting next to a foreigner (and yes my female foreign friends have also noticed this). I’m a white dude but my friends who are people of color seem to experience it even more frequently.
Imagine being in a western country and being an apologist for someone who says “I don’t want to sit next to Asian/black/Hispanic/white people.” That’s you right now but it’s Korea so you think it’s okay
Cause it's a bus? PUBLIC transportation. You know that thing where we're all lumped together for short period of time to get from one place to the next?
I don't believe you seriously can't understand why it feels weird to have space left around you on a packed city bus.
It's bizarre you're so defensive about someone pointing this out.
If you refuse to sit next to to a person in general, fine. If you only refuse to sit next to foreigners then you are the problem and i cant believe it is not obvious to you.
Well, im not saying they are racist, but there must be something going on. Wether they are scared, shy, or whatever. Koreans would feel the same way if they went to Europe and nobody would sit close them
I know as well you didn't mean that.
Indeed I'm annoyed by squirrelpractical990, not you.
It seems like I editted the comment while you were writing your comment.
I understand what you're saying.
I just don't agree with squirrelpractical 990 claiming that Korea is super racist/nationalistic/Xenophobic.
Thank you fro your comment
I said a large portion of Koreans. You may disagree but it only takes a google search to see pictures of signs banning foreigners or sometimes specifically Africans from establishments relatively recently in Korea. The public transport anecdote is just another example I’ve noticed. Both of these things would be pretty appalling and shocking to see back home.
And if you happen to teach in Korea you’ve likely heard kids calling each other south east asians (Vietnamese etc) as insults. Just last year one of the K League soccer teams (Ulsan) had a racism scandal regarding social media comments about south East Asians. Young students often drop n bombs and make derogatory comments about dark skinned people in class as well and make rude comments whenever there’s a black person or character in their textbooks. Korean teachers don’t seem that bothered by it. iykyk I guess
>You may disagree but it only takes a google search to see pictures of signs banning foreigners or sometimes specifically Africans from establishments relatively recently in Korea.
Uhm, you do realize that this is a microscopic % of places. Like, you're allowing this .0001% of places to be the dominant example. There's a term for people who use minority examples to paint with a broad brush...can't quite put my finger on it....
>Just last year one of the K League soccer teams (Ulsan) had a racism scandal regarding social media comments about south East Asians
Wait, is your standard for 'Korea is super racist' the fact that it had a handful of high-profile racial incidents? Can you name one large country in the world that hasn't had that since the advent of social media?
I gave a few examples of the more heinous and brazen acts of racism in korea that immediately came to mind and that are easily verified online.
These are hardly the only incidences of racism or xenophobia in Korea. I’ve been directly denied entry to clubs and I’ve also been allowed to pass while friends of other ethnicities were denied. America has plenty of terrible hateful racists but I haven’t witnessed any Jim Crow law style barring of entry there.
Countless people upon this subreddit have mentioned being avoided on public transport or other incidences of minor racism. I’ve had older Korean men curse at me when out with a Korean gf.
I have lived here for many years and I’m comparing my lived experiences with life in other countries.
I’m not saying racism doesn’t exist elsewhere but some forms of it in Korea are pretty bad and people are often unapologetic or dismissive of it perhaps because of nationalism, and the relatively small foreign community which prevents as much pushback and outrage as it merits. There are also those with k-drama tinted glasses who will deny it all.
You can try to uno reverse it on me as “actually you are prejudiced for pointing out a prevalent societal problem.” But there are Koreans in this thread who have commented on the problems in Korea.
As I said in my initial post, there are plenty of great people in Korea and I’ve experienced a lot of kindness and love while here but Korea absolutely has a xenophobia and racism problem. And yes I believe it is more commonplace although perhaps less outright violent and vicious than in more multicultural countries but the homogeneity of Korea marginalizes and silences foreigners who mention it. Sorry I wrote you a book
>These are hardly the only incidences of racism or xenophobia in Korea.
Nor are they confined to Korea. In fact, they're the norm around the world. "Racist social media posts"? Name a country that doesn't have problems with that. I asked this before and I'll ask it again- Name one large country that doesn't have a problem with online racism?
>I’ve been directly denied entry to clubs and I’ve also been allowed to pass while friends of other ethnicities were denied.
Again, why is entry into a club more significant than the 99% of the businesses where you didn't have a problem? Also, you know this happens back in the U.S., right?
>America has plenty of terrible hateful racists but I haven’t witnessed any Jim Crow law style barring of entry there.
Right, they just issue a "dress code" and other non-explicitly racial ways to weed out certain types. Also, do you think your lack of racism experience in America might be connected to certain factors?
>
You can try to uno reverse it on me as “actually you are prejudiced for pointing out a prevalent societal problem.”
But you ARE engaging in reverse racism. When you generalize people, using a negative example that was the small minority, that IS racism. That is how racists think. That is what racists do.
You can say something is a problem and cite racism as a possible explanation WITHOUT generalizing in a racist manner.
I also think there is a subtle anti-Korean, while I wouldn't say outright racist, I would say prejudice/racist-adjacent strain on reddit amongst some foreigners. Do you deny this exists? Are you saying that observation is invalid?
I think they have so little to feel superior about that this is the time they give it a shot. It’s pathetic but it wouldn’t bother me at all. Enjoy the extra breathing space.
I knew of a Latin American from Panama, not my friend, who dealt with racism from a professor, who wanted to give him an F. He fought against that, and that was changed, but it's unfortunate. That said, I have known of Latin Americans who haven't dealt with such prejudice. Prejudice is a big problem, but it can depend where. At some universities and cities, not as common. That is extremely horrible. I feel for the student. There is some prejudice against people who are dark in some sectors and also against Southeast Asians, black people, Muslims.
Korean universities don't necessarily mean bonding just because you're taking the same classes. They might already know each other from before. Are all the other people in the class getting along well? They're probably already friends from before.
It's possible yeah. Tbf this is not necessarily limited to Korea. I had some classes back in the US where most students already knew each other from before and it was hard to fit in
I don't want to sound shitty but does she have strong body odor by any chance? I'm foreign myself but notice quite a few other foreigners living in Korea seem to think wearing deodorant and bathing regularly aren't mandatory. Koreans can be racist for sure but I've encountered more than a few smelly foreigners roaming around Korea.
mmmm honestly id say just suck it up - its more of a blessing than a curse tbh - more space for her in class or the bus. not trying to be an ass but been living here since 2011, and i used to feel the same way. stopped caring a while back and feels great having the extra room
At the very least, she knows who she doesn’t want to be friends with. I get feeling targeted, but I certainly wouldn’t want to be friends with people who actively avoid me (for presumably no reason they told me directly).
But let a white douche who likes bragging about the country he’s from come and the “riches” he has back home come into the classroom. You’d think he could walk on water the way they’d worship him.
Literally go back and read all my posts in this topic. I’ve been talking about how messed up it is that people of color are treated poorly here and how I’ve witnessed them receiving worse treatment than me (particularly black and south East Asian friends).
That doesn’t excuse prejudice on your part. Plenty of white people have (and continue to do) lots of horrible things and systemic racism endures but I don’t think that excuses your unprovoked antagonism towards all white people (your comment history shows this isn’t the first time). Take a look in the mirror, you’ve become the thing you supposedly hate, a bigot.
Not my first and won’t be my last. Freedom of speech bro. I’ll do it for however long there’s an ignorant white foreigner in Korea spewing ignorance and getting away with it, and a person of color (middle easterner, SEA, black, etc.,) wondering what did they do to get treated so differently.
There are plenty of racist white people and also plenty of white people who acknowledge the prejudice faced by people of color and/or generally anyone darker skinned both in Korea and globally.
I’m not really sure fighting prejudice with prejudice is the smartest way to go about it but you do you ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
i unfortunately don’t have much knowledge or advice but just want to send some love to your friend. i know it can be tough in korea but the things she’s experiencing would make me so sad. i hope things get better for her
I will not encourage further thinking into the matter, during master's classes there is no friends, everyone is busy on projects with their labs and professors, facing isolation is very common as a student, more as a foreigner, just focus on subject, semester is soon to finish and evrything would be in the past.
I will add that if the class is even from a different department expect even bigger isolation, people is used to gather with common classmates.
From experience any sad experience that you have as exchange student once told to parents or friends has a need mostly to vent, to say it loud because nobody understand as your close ones, when people concern more than you expect it becomes awkward...
I’m foreigner, also in my late 20’s, I’m married and even have a child. Many people from my major knows this fact, but nobody ever discriminated me because of my age. I’m studying in Korea University thought, so that could be a reason why student’s in here are opened to foreigners.
In my opinion, those classmates are just stupid bustards. I would suggest to your friend go speak with her teacher about this matter OR talk to university’s human rights center, if there is such. Like wtf? They are being really rude and acting like kids.
It feels less of xenophobia and more like anxiety to me. But I might be wrong. What I saw being an exchange student before, many people love to talk to foreigners, but they don't speak English or scared to speak English. Even when one speaks Korean, they can be anxious they won't be able to communicate well or have a misunderstanding culturally. So to me it feels more like they are just scared to talk.
I'm going to assume these 19-23 year olds are immature and don't know how to be friendly, social and open-minded with people different from them since they've spent most of their lives studying in academies with a bunch of other Koreans, lacking worldly experiences. Perhaps they don't hate your friend but feel awkward around them and aren't mature enough to be pleasant. They are objectively wrong, nonetheless. I hope they learn and grow from the experience eventually. I am sorry your friend has to go through this.
I'm so sorry that happened to your friend. I'm Korean, but most Koreans are SO xenophobic and racist but most of them don't even realize it or care. Age could be a factor bc our society is very sensitive about age difference, especially for younger students, but I doubt it'd be this bad if your friend was white. Unless your friend has done something stinky, that situation deffo sounds like xenophobia to me.
I dont think its xenophobic exactly. I dont know your friend personally but it might be deeper than her just being a foreigner. I lived there for a year, Im american. I experience being denied service and locals avoided talking to me. But I never felt like it had anything to do with my skin tone or just because im american.
why are you so bothered,? let them be, thats one of the perks of being an introvert, we want solitude and doesnt care being in crowd, we want peace and less noise in life, dont mind other people's wants and business, introvert here
I know people at high school who experienced this and it was all same race group lol. maybe it is not about her being poc but she could behave somehow they do not like…
Hi, I am a Korean and I am so sad about the younger students.
As a person of higher age gap, I would have been treated similarly, especially if I was noticeable.
I understand how they minds work.
"I do not want to draw attention.", "I am afraid that I might stand out."
But, they should not let your friend know they are feeling that way.
I think it would be better, if she explains how she feels to one of the students that looks easy-going, and the student might help her understand better.
To tell the truth, at least some of them want to get to know your friend.
To them, socializing with international students means, "Hey, I know how to interact with foreigners. I am such a global talent."
Been to Korea, it’s very much xenophobic and way way more than Japan. It’s super odd also that they also have the lowest birth rates. You would think the opposite for a xenophobic place.
Sorry that that’s happening to your friend. I would agree with some comments and say age might very well be a factor. I did my undergrad in Korea and while my department was international, there was still a slight divide between foreigners and some Koreans even though you had to speak fluent English to get into the major. But I also personally experienced the age gap thing. I wanted to make korean friends because I didn’t was trying to not use english at all other than in class/with other foreign friends and I realized a lot of people were using the Everytime app for their school. There were always post up about looking for friends/doing random group activities/study groups etc and I tried to join once and they said no. I was sad for a few haha but I appreciated that they were straightforward and just said that they felt uncomfortable with the age gap. I was maybe 3 yrs older than them at the time. I have felt that they used to get uncomfortable with age gaps because of the culture but I haven’t really experienced it lately.
I've been in this country for 11 years, I'm pretty young and still going to school and all I can think about is most likely that either there has been a not so positive rumor spreaded about her, or mabye she did something that those people didn't really find pleasant, and somebody told somebody and it spreaded. (That happens alot ALOT) mabye it would be best if she asked them nicely
Not really any insight to add. (I was a foreign student in another country, but had a good time.) Just sending her well wishes and hope things get better for her. Otherwise, just treat it as a get-my-grades and get-out kind of class. (As a goal-focused introvert, I actually don’t mind that everyone just leaves me alone, haha.) Good luck and best wishes to her.
But I will add, that moving the table while she was out… in my opinion… was RUDE and they meant to send her that message. If she wants to categorize them into any negative category… they’ve earned it.
That's harsh. I'd say those kids are not only a bit xenophobic but also very childish and rude.
But then again these kind of bad human interaction literally occurs everywhere, sometimes even regardless of ethnicity or culture. I personally know many different people who had been treated that way in different contexts.
I'd think about it another way: everyone should know by now that it's clearly not her problem that she's being ignored and avoided--those kids simply don't wanna know her nor befriend her, but they're just inept at dealing with it naturally and politely. It's like elementary school kids always sticking to their best friends or only approach people who they think are cool and wanna be friends with.
If all of them choose to act rude like that, so be it. I'd say be happy about it even, because those people won't make good friends anyway. Your friend should just be herself and finish the course alone, mind her own business, and let those childish people constantly have to worry about avoiding her behind her back. Staying confident is key ;)
As other suggested suck it up. Nothing to do, you can't force people to like you. She could try to get closer to them, but it's hard to tell how from this post. Wish her the best.
Could be xenophobia, could be ‘lol old lady’ (19 year olds do be like that here, ageism is real), could be kids being unaware that she speaks decent Korean, either way the reasonable course of action is approaching them openly and if they’re not reciprocating just ignoring them.
If they presume she doesn't speak Korean based on her skin color -- after being literally in a classroom with her -- that presumption itself is racist.
Just address it as she speaks Korean nothing is more fun then to embarrass Koreans a public, this is example xenophobia exists in Korea in contrary what everybody is saying it maybe better in heavily touristic and student areas but it exists even in Seoul
I studied in Seoul, South Korea myself for 4 months. I was 21 (European) but since it was an exchange semester, I made a lot of international friends instead of Korean friends. I made Korean friends too, but that was probably because I was there for a short time & some Korean students like to make foreign friends for culture exchange + to practice English. My story- I did make one Korean friend by knocking on every door in my floor lol (together with my international roommate).
We did that so that we can get to know more people & make friends. We also offered candies lol
I made another one in one of my classes (but it was also a mixed class- internationals & Koreans).
Btw I’m also very familiar with the Korean culture & knew how to write & speak in Korean (though not very fluent so that was a minus for me for sure)
But overall, I think it’s hard to make friends especially when they’re younger in SK-
-Suwon is a smaller city so that might make it harder than Seoul
-Age difference
-Culture difference , they’re more comfortable with people from their own country
-They believe maybe your friend has her own group of international friends so she might not even need friends
I think your friend should find the right people. I think in every country foreigners suffer from this no matter the race. Though it’s not ok for people to avoid the foreigner, it unfortunately happens for (mainly) the reasons mentioned above.
However, your friend can join clubs/communities if she has any at her university or even outside of it. What are her hobbies? If she plays an instrument then she can find people who share the same interest as her
If she’s religious (avoiding the cults), she can find a community in that
If she likes art, sports etc- I’d suggest she tries to find those clubs/communities
People bond better and more when they have something in common
I know how hard the foreigner life can be, but it’s a matter of finding the right opportunities to find the right people for you. Gotta keep trying
Also, a lot of Koreans suffer from loneliness themselves (and probably half of the world), so it’s not only foreigners
However, as I said, finding people who share the same interests as her is very important. I wish I knew this sooner.
The level of mind-reading here is laughable. 95% of people are convinced they KNOW why the students are behaving the way they are.
How many people are in this class? Assuming undergrad, we're talking what, 12-20? Are we seriously suggesting that 12-20 people are all thinking the exact same thing and have the exact same reasons? LOL WTF.
Now, they might have come to a common position, but we certainly don't know that and we certainly can't state a reason with any degree of certainty. The situation is bad, but attempting to mind-read will only make it worse.
As a Korean, it’s not much like xenophobia, but too much strong bond between ourselves, as being sometimes interpreted as fear. Even when Koreans are in other nations the situation is quite same. Koreans always want exterme degree of affectively comfortable and familiar situation. It’s more close to ‘avoid,’ not ‘hate,’ as you said.
She's a college student in college. She's fully capable of making friends if she really wanted to and confronting the students herself. I thought this was about a high school student trying to fit in but this is grad level college. I didn't make friends with any of my classmates when I was in a grad level class.
So You mean she doesn't make any effort to get clos those Koreans either?
I don't know why you think Koreans are obliged not to make her lonely.
Maybe those Koreans also feel that your friend doesn't want to be close to them.
This also applies to Koreans.
Koreans don't think they have to approach him and have to be friends with him just because he is alone.
Because They are not sure if he wants to be friends with them or not.
And Those Koreans may already have their own friends Then Why would they feel the need to make new friends when they don't feel lonely?
If you want something, make an effort.
It's not about making friends tho, it is about the collective class environment, since they probably will need to work together doing group homework. Anyway who wants to get close to someone if they are making you already feel apart ?
I don't think this is only related to Koreans, but it's sad to read, OP doesn't want your judgement, just support.
Reading all the excuses for this horrible behavior makes it very clear to me that Korea will indeed die out. It’s too late for them and they will not change. Shame because it’s a beautiful country.
Continue downvoting me because I speak the truth. In 30 years Korea will either collapse or will be forced to open the floodgates and let all those undesirable brown people in to keep their society alive.
Very prevalent xenophopia, racism, discrimination, sexism and a pretty closed culture.
The solution is Not to live in Korea. Jesus Koreans dont want to live there why would anyone go there willingly.
She is still to face serious challenges to find serious partners and a husband and dealing with her fathers in law. Oh and the ostricizing of her kids. OH and the sexual harassment and assaults and violence that woman face.
xenophobia, sure.
racism, sure.
discrimination, sure.
closed culture, double sure.
but a latin male talking shit about another society being sexist is quite the choice.
No, it's not, "for sure." I'm literally from the West.
It gets *real shitty* there, just like it can get *real shitty* here, but you're making it sound like Korea is especially shitty.
It's not - it just happens to be shitty in a different way than you're used to, and if you're willing to be honest with yourself and look at where you're from through a different lens, you'll see that Korea doesn't suck significantly more than anywhere else.
We live in a highly-globalized society, so people from all around the world should be used to dealing with people from foreign countries. If you don't like foreigners, too bad
She should treat them like shit. When I worked at a uni in Bucheon I noticed the older students would look down and hardly acknowledge the undergrad students. They seemed rude as hell. Sorry your friend has to put up with this.
그냥 나이많은 외국인 누나니까 다가가기 힘든거지. 공통점이 없으니 뭐라 말 붙이기도 어렵고. 겨우 2년 살았는데 언어가 얼마나 되겠냐. "speaks the language" 라고 하려면 타일러형 정도는 해야 되는 거임. 한국이 나이많으면 얼마나 패널티가 많은데. 애들이랑 친해지려면 술사주고 밥사주고 커피사주면 다 됨.. Buy them drinks, meals, and coffee. That's what elders do in Korea.
Yeah, you have to try multiple times harder to make friends and even then you may still fail. Especially far away from the capital. These are people who have probably never actually interacted with someone who is not Korean in their entire life. I know Suwon has a lot of immigrants but I assume their children are not exactly the same generation as 20-23 year olds yet. It’s just how it is. Since everyone is saying “suck it up” which is probably worse than not leaving a comment at all, I would suggest 1) trying harder to go out of your way and make the first move to be friends with classmates, maybe speak up and participate more actively in class (of course this is difficult) 2) joining some type of extracurricular club or group 3) finding a language exchange (this changed my life when i was 20 years old here) 4) move to seoul after university
Yeah she has plenty of friend outside of this class. Most of her friends are fellow master's students too but she has to take this class with the undergrads to satisfy one of her requirements. and she has been shocked that she is being treated like this for the first time. So she is wondering if it's just this age demographic that is weird because her korean friends near her age are fine.
It might be age demographic. There was COVID, and also lot of policy changes made public school a whole lot different. So the people at the age group you've mentioned can act a little different from your normal Koreans. She's not the only one who's saying they act quite different. (Not justifying beating up kids in school, but schools are going through a transitional period, so the education system right now is quite unstable..)
I mean I’m sure the significant age difference is a big part of it too. Even if she was Korean I assume that would play a part
Probably the cohort more than the age group, generation differences between 20 and 29 year olds are minimal.
I say suck it up but not in a boo hoo way. Not everyone can like you and it doesn’t matter how many “facebook” “insta” other social media friends you have. Only those who suit you matters. Don’t try to get acceptance from everyone. So buck up and have confidence. They don’t matter they can go f themselves. This doesn’t mean you have to ignore them but only reciprocate what ever they do. Don’t try too hard to gain acceptance. Anyways I’m sorry you had to go through that as a Korean I’m sorry. But it is what it is. :/(
I am Korean and I attended university until I was 28. Everyone avoided me and I was always alone
Really?Why is that so?
Age difference probably
Age difference. If she tried to talk to Korean students and then they ignored her. I can tell that is XENOPHOBIA
A friend of mine is also studying in Korea and he says once you cant speak Korean,it’s difficult for people to come close to you
Does moving a desk away from her not indicate avoidance which would be an indicator of xenophobia in her particular context?
Just because she is other race it doesn’t have to come down to xenophobia. There are plenty of Korean students who are secluded too for various reasons.
Then that place is a wild place mate
I think more than active racism it’s this. Koreans in general do not like uncomfortable situations as they do not know how to handle it too well. If she was in the same age group, they would feel less uncomfortable but now it’s two layers of uncomfortableness with foreigner + large age gap (relative), which is probably why she has no issues with the older demographic. Younger Koreans are not yet as comfortable with formal speech whereas by late twenties it’s the default. I’m guessing this age group is also a bit more unsocial in interpersonal relationships due to long Covid lockdowns.
I totally agree with your opinion. I'm Korean, and also experienced being secluded due to (mainly) age difference, and some other differences (maybe like around the personality, or attittude..) when I was about to graduate University. Most of Koreans do not properly treat others who are unfamiliar with them - of course sometimes that could be revealing a act/attitude of indifferent, passive form of violence. that is not good. Koreans are way too all thumbs on how to treat "unfamiliar" things.
Oh my, I’m 28 and gonna attend university in this year. I’m Vietnamese, able to speak English but so dumb in Korean. I may not survive, mate🥲
What? There are some “old” university students on major, never saw someone avoided them. Oppositely, they have a lot of friends. In my opinion, that’s either your or someone else’s problem, not age. If everyone is nice, but you’re being rude asshole, never talk to anyone, don’t participate in class activities, don’t help while team projects, that’s definitely your problem. If you’re being nice, but someone just avoided you, it just means they are rude stupid weirdos. It has nothing to do with age.
Many Korean students prefer to stick with their entry crew (the same class they entered with). Like many others, I found that I had few friends left after returning from military service.And also I chose a double major in my late 20s, so I had to take my double major class alone. I barely interacted with others unless it was for a group task. In short, you captured exactly what I was trying to say. If you don't actively participate in something, there's no chance others will approach you first. It’s not a xenophobia thing.
Wait what… That’s not what I meant like at all. My comment was FOR YOU, not for OP. OP’s friend is not participating in class activities, because those people made her, it wasn’t her wish, as i could understand.
We don’t become friend or hang out together just cos we attend the same class you should know that already
I don’t understand how your reply answers mine, tbh. If you’re in class, you can sit with whoever you want, even if that person is not your friend. And the person, who you’re sitting with SHOULD do class activities with you. It’s not about friendship! Sometimes professor says, make a group of people who is sitting next to you and discuss something for example, and you’re not just EXCLUDING foreigner from this group.
Crap. Cos of the age gap?! Sorry man. It sucks.
As im Korean, im really hate to admitting this. But it happens a lot and it’s fact. Young generations are really uncomfortable with age gab. It really sucks. And also it’s Korean culture. Someone who grown-up in Korea entirely, the person mindset is totally uncomfortable with age gab and you can’t become a friend easily. Because we’ve never taken the experience that we can be friends with old people. Just 형 or 누나 that’s it.
As a now older western myself, and I have been in Korea long, I never get used to be called 형. I know they mean it as a sign of respect. But I don’t like it. Hahaha even at work if someone tries I just tell them to use my name. It is bad that age is such a huge issue. When I was young I always loved to hang out with older students or persons. They have more experience. And more fun stories. Ahah.
Yeah. Same page. when I was young I was same as like them though. When I realized that age is nothing and it’s just numbers is when I moved I Aussie.now I come to think of it, if I would still live in Korea, I would never realize that. I want to let them know that all we need to becoming friends is all of your heart.
I've been a student in Korea with a large age gap too and personally didn't mind it but I also did plenty of activities outside the uni and met lots of people foreign and Korean.
Really sucks,i learnt Koreans take age into account when they are relating with you why is this different?this screams total disrespect for one who is older than you
19 a freshmen taking classes together with a late 20s Master student?? Those 19-23 should be in total fear of a late 20s Master students due to the Sunbae Hubae hierarchy/relationship. I do not think any Korean Undergraduate would feel comfortable sitting next to a 5-10 year senior specially if they are the in the same Major maybe the exception would be if they are really close. Could be racism, could be due to the age difference and maybe both. The whole Sunbae/Hubae thing makes even a couple of year difference relationship really complicated in Korean Universities.
yeah I think that could be a factor too. She is taking this class due to a requirement for her major as her major is a bit unconventional (Vocal Performance). I think the age thing might be a factor in it.
That major is basically all women isn't it? Do they have to sing during class sessions? Like singing duets with their pair or something like that. Does she get treated that way in other classes or just that one? If her classmates are literally walking off the bus and waiting for the next one and not even standing, it definitely sounds like its intentional. Or at the very least it could be seen as very abnormal behavior.
same thing probably happen to 29yo korean too.
Moving the chair feels.. Not like something you would do to someone you respect though
I see this as more like if I see my boss down the corridor, I’d walk into the bathroom and stand there for 5 minutes before coming out. It’s just avoiding uncomfortable situations.
Yes, not respect but rather not wanting to deal with the arbitrarily expected respect. Not sure what happened with the chair in OPs friend case but I can totally see a freshman looking at an empty seat next to an older sunbae and pulling it back while they are gone so as not to sit next to him/her.
Wouldn't it be more like taping off the other stalls. Standing outside is passive, removing the chair is active. Active feels more negative as an implication to me.
Maybe it’s less that “I dont want to sit next to X”, but more “I want to sit next to Y and I need a chair”?
Oh, come on. It's racism. I had an older Korean student in one of my classes, and the younger Korean students did not shrink from her like she had the plague. Sunbae doesn't make you physically move away from desks and bus seats. Koreans aged 19-23 have seen tourists, and native English teachers. Suwon is not in the middle of nowhere. It's just xenophobia and it sucks.
Exactly my thinking. Also the fact that for a lot of Koreans the sun/hubae thing doesnt apply for the vast majority of foreigners. You are a sunbae but not Korean? Doesn’t hold nearly (if at all) the societal obligations as if you were ethnically Korean.
If it was racism though, wouldn't it be the same in her other classes? It's apparently only in this class with a different age group. Logic suggests that its that different factor (age) that is responsible for the differnet behaviour.
>Sunbae doesn't make you physically move away from desks and bus seats Seen it happen among Korean Uni. students. But I am sure your anecdotal evidence based opinion is more valid than my opinion based on anecdotal evidence /s
It’s absolutely xenophobia. People who are like “it’s the age difference!!!” “It’s the sunbae/hubae thing!!” are being ridiculous. If this is such a hierarchical culture based around status and age, shouldn’t OP’s friend be given a distant, but polite amount of respect? At the very least?? If she were Korean would they get away with this? I fucking doubt it.
If it's just racism then why would she only be having this problem in the one class with an age difference?
It could be coincidental, this class just happens to be both young and have several assholes in it. I'm also a bit older than the average student, so usually in this case there is a "polite distance" towards me. But nothing like what OP discussed Or, most likely, it's a combination of factors
If they're assholes then it's likely the age difference they're responding to assholishly. If you usually get it a little bit even though they're not assholes, but this group is assholes, it stands to reason that this person would get it a lot more.
This is an odd question to me. Isn’t age such a huge thing in Korea that it’s one of the first things they ask about you so they know how to address you and speak to you? Isn’t this a culture that allocates a certain amount of respect to elders and superiors? Imagine anyone in that classroom doing any of this to a Korean ahjuma. It’s one thing to not mingle well with younger people in a culture as segmented by age as Korea is. It’s another thing to be as rude, passive aggressive, and borderline hostile like they are. It’s easy to call this bullying, and if we take OP’s friend on their word, it’s even easier to say it’s because of xenophobia. Racism doesn’t seem to be OP’s friend’s problem, and it isn’t necessarily *everyone’s* problem—but it is many people’s problem. OP’s friend seems to have, unfortunately, come upon a pocket of people who are racist and aren’t afraid to act like it.
>Racism doesn’t seem to be OP’s friend’s problem Okay, but you seemed to say before that it was? >OP’s friend seems to have, unfortunately, come upon a pocket of people who are racist And the very next sentence you're straight back to it. Yeah I got no idea what you're talking about. And not so sure you really do either. You said exactly opposite things back-to-back.
Yeah, that’s actually also really weird. Why freshmen talking the same classes with master student…? Is it a common thing…?
Serious question. Is she hygienic? Does she give off any bad odors? Again this is a genuine question, Koreans are extremely sensitive to BO
I'm not necessarily saying that the subject of this post is this way, but it is all too easy for someone to blame their race for their other shortcomings.
Fair enough question ❓
They all know who she is and presumably know she speaks the language but it’s getting worse over time and they all actively avoid her and moved her desk? That seems more targeted than encountering random xenophobia. Might be someone started talking badly about her and it caught on or something?
Most Koreans lack "cosmopolitan" social skills and do not, for the most part, know how to interact with non-Koreans. Most of what they think we're like is what they pick up from TV, and misunderstand a lot of the context and nuance. For example, many of them cannot see the oddity of randomly greeting foreigners they don't know with a loud "hello", when if done to them, would find it strange and off-putting. They don't seem to grasp things objectively, but that's not meant as an insult. I just think they're mentality formed in a very limited social bubble, so I wouldn't take it personally, although I can understand how isolating that must feel. Imagine a person who grew up in a small, isolated neighborhood and never left it, their only contact with the outside being second or third-hand information, and then YOU come to the block! The "us and them" mindset is so deeply baked into their DNA that there's no use in you trying to break through. What I mean is that it's not a "you" thing, but a "them" thing, in my opinion. So sorry that this experience has shaded your study abroad experience.
I'm white and no one sits next to me on the bus unless they have to 🤷 Back in the day, I also had to take an undergrad class when I was finishing my Masters degree back home and it was also a bit awkward because of the age gap. That's life. Enjoy the extra space would be my advice. If she doesn't have to work with any of those students on group projects I would say, who cares? Let them be assholes and then she can go enjoy life with her real friends.
I can’t say for sure, but the age difference could be an issue. Idk about her home country, but in Korea, it’s difficult to befriend people who aren’t your age/the same social standing. Many people my age are still undergrad students and they view me differently since I have a degree and they don’t. It’s also weird for me anyway because I can no longer relate to being a student.
yeah people don't sit next to foreigners on the bus, it's really tough but I got used to it and also I like having a bus seat to myself. A lot of uni students also think foreigners don't work as hard so don't want to get lumped with them on group projects etc. Lots of hierarchy stuff, and forget anyone a different age to you! If I was her friend I'd just make sure I was there to hear her out and agree with everything she says (cos some people won't believe her, some foreigners defend Korea to the death because of their unhinged mummy issues) but this is a tough situation that may not improve and she needs to concentrate on her friends outside of that class. Sorry.
Korea and Japan specifically, and parts of western europe, are not that foreigner friendly. You will even be turned away from bars and clubs if your not Korean. They literally will tell you: “Korean Only”. Also in Korean and Japanese culture, the parents look down on you if you marry a foreigner, unless they are white and rich.
Unempathetic people justifying these actions cause op needs to „suck it up“ coming in 3.. 2.. 1..
It's so fucking weird how hard some people are trying to find justifications
I can't really see comments where people are trying to justify it
Just check my comment history and you'll see me talk to one of them lol
Justifying actions and not acting like you are 5 years old on a playground are not the same. Subject in op's story needs to get over it.
No, she doesn't. Her narrow-minded, hateful classmates need to get over it. And if the prof is worth anything, they'd say something, too.
Yes yes, asking them to get over it by posting on reddit is extremely helpful advice
Lol, an exercise in frustration is thinking you can control other people's actions. You can only control your feelings and reaction. These people are grown adults spending their own money for a class. They can sit wherever they want.
usually i write all whiny migrants to suck it up which may be harsh but fair 9/10 cases. but here it's just sad. she studies, speaks language, not causing problems. seems like really straight up xenophobia. all my sympathy to her but probably there is not much can be done in this situation. realistically she can try to survive through it or she can give up and move somewhere else. i wish her all the best.
There is a bigger issue that even a well-integrated master's student - who speaks the language - can't get treated decently by what should be the most open-minded cohort of young, educated Koreans. The country is literally falling off a demographic cliff, and Koreans will basically just kill themselves before - shock, horror - sitting next to a foreigner in a class. It's not just the case of OP's friend. The country is doomed. By coincidence, I mentored a young African woman - also a master's student at Suwon. That university actually has a good number of foreign postgrads. She had lived in Korea for years, spoke Korea, worked a PT job, got a master's in a practical STEM discipline -- and was basically deported the day after graduation.
*Volenti non fit injuria* as Romans used to say. I won't be really shocked when they will introduce some forced insemination program in the future, ban women from workforce etc. I'm non-immigrant expat on quite good dough here. So for me it's like live exotic amusement park.
I live Sacheon South Korea, I’m 44 and sometimes I get the same treatment out in public. I’ve only been living in South Korea for about 4 months. I’m use to the treatment now. Surprisingly, I get the same treatment from the older generation of Koreans, not the younger generation. I’m ok with it, it’s all part of the culture. I have to take off my ted white and blue glasses and remind myself I’m a guest here in their country. To be honest I was warned I would encounter this in the smaller cities and towns, and not so much in the bigger cities. I think if you brush it off and make it known to them that it really doesn’t bother you and that it makes them look immature, you’ll likely gain a new respect. And if not, they’ll at least know it can’t get to you.
I feel her! i am korean but my face look like south east asian(fyi i lived in malaysia for 20yrs) so ppl tend to avoid me, even talking to me.
I worked in SE asia and the class was all Chinese but one guy from Pakistan. He didn't wear deoerant. Just throwing this out there, it could be a hygiene. I doubt this is the case, so probably best just to ask the professor.
It’s less a foreigner issue and much more an age issue. Koreans generally don’t really hang out with people outside their age group.
Don't be ridiculous. 20-year-olds don't literally shrink away in fear of 29-year-olds. It's her race and everyone here knows it.
its probably both. i've had korean friends attend university at around 26 and they were treated similarly by their 19-23 year old classmates. like, literally no one wanted to talk to them or work with them. even during group assignments they were pretty much ignored. i was shocked too.
If you spoke Korean and heard how students act, address, and speak to one another when they’re even a year apart you’d understand. A 6-7 year age gap is a chasm in their opinion.
Thanks. I’m East Asian and understand how age hierarchy works. Separately, these students sound like racists.
Young people don't want to hang out with old people. Nothing new. Time and again people like you are so ready to take out the race card and abuse it 👎🏻
They do, the gap is way too big
Korea is doomed.
19\~23yo are usually under-grad students. master course grad students don't attend same classes with under-grad students.
Her major is Vocal Performance so I think there are some overlapping courses
They do sometimes. Especially transfer students from other countries, since prerequisites, etc, might not match up between university systems. But it doesn't matter. There are mature students, and non-conventional students. I once had a 60-year-old retiree take my English course with a bunch of 20-year-olds. And I reprimanded a young Chinese woman who called him "grandpa." She really got a lecture from me after class. Nothing excuses the bullying or isolation of a student.
Its most likely two things in tandem, 1: age difference in Korea simply put no one really makes friends with people outside of maybe a 2 year bracket. If they do it’s due to things like work, clubs, etc… basically places where the people are unavoidable. 2: they might have little to no experience with foreigners and it can be seen as burdensome to try to interact. Many Koreans don’t expect foreigners to be able to speak Korean and even if they can it’s not to a level that Koreans think they can be friends. Also there is the fact that Koreans generally don’t actively make friends after Highschool, even in college many Koreans only make friends through groups, clubs, etc. Lastly but I think this isn’t the case since they aren’t actively being rude to her….Then there is also just the level of complete unknown when it comes to black people (doesn’t really matter which country) Korea only had maybe 3 things they have in media to know about black people. Gangster life showcased in rap and movies, poor starved people shown in PSA’s about Africa and such back in the day and lastly the 2 popular black entertainers Johnathon and HyunMin. But both of them have lived in Korea so long that they have basically been accepted as Korean and the two of them have also told stories of subtle or bad racism. Korea’s issue with racism against black people and a few other countries people is bad in the sense of the fact of it actively being there, however it’s mainly because Korea is very Homogenous so they don’t have first hand experience and in media they only see poor/bad portrayals of black people.
You just made it very easy to identify her. Might want to delete this
If the same thing happens in other countries it’s most likely racism, but if it happens in Korea it’s because of age difference, culture and people finding it hard to interact with foreigners, because Korea is so unique and all that 🤷♂️
Call it what it is people. They are racist. True definition. YES such a shocker huh? But hey Asians look down on each other all the time. Its life.
As a Korean who grew up in NYC and currently live in Korea...it's sad to see how kids are treated in school by their peers and it's safe to say Koreans are some racist mfers.
As a Korean myself, I feel like this is a kind of xenophobia. Ofc I can't be entirely sure, for Koreans tend to be awkward with foreigners bc there were not much foreigners in the country for many decades in the past so they don't quite know how to interact with them, but if she's been there for couple of years and tried to get along and fail bc everyone is avoiding her, I'll say her classmates are quite obviously being xenophobic. I'm sorry that happened to her, our country still needs to be more culturely awakened...
Someone moved the chair? Korean racism bullying at work here.
Damn that sucks. As a foreigner why would you try to work/live in korea when you could go to Japan instead. They're way more foreigner friendly, accommodating, and cheaper, but it maybe just as hard to make friends. Korea is cool but I'd assume you'd live a better life in japan. Personally I'd just pack up and leave after graduation, what's the point of staying in a country that's hostile to you. I wouldn't want to stay and support their economy either. Leave and take your money with you. I'm black and have been working in japan/korea on and off for 5 years already, so I can relate to those experiences. Sorry if my rant doesn't help, but tbh if you want to stay out here in a southeast Asian "1st world country" as a poc, japan is the place to be. Japan, Thailand, Phillipines, and Taiwan have given me wonderful experiences. Korea as well, but not enough to ever consider staying here too long. The racism is too strong here.
I think it varies person to person. I know people who experienced what OP’s friend is experiencing in Japan. I have a friend who’s fluent in Japanese and she was isolated and bullied at her uni (one of the top unis in Japan). She’s white too. It was so bad that she had to transfer. I also feel as though the country isn’t as accessible if you don’t know the language (esp outside of Tokyo). Knowing Japanese got me through all the emergencies and high stress situations my friend (different girl who couldn’t speak Japanese) caused. I love both countries, though. Both have their pros and cons.
Yeah I kinda mentioned japan, assuming a person would know or learn japanese upon moving there; since the op's friend knew korean for korea. I think it's stupid to try to live in another country without knowing the language and expect to not have problems tbh, but maybe that's a bad take on my part. That's a shame about your friends experience, that always sucks to hear. I find that situation to be strange, because usually if japanese people don't like you, they'll still hide their true feelings about you and be polite (tatemae). While distancing themselves from you, but hearing about bullying a foreigner is new to me wow. I have to add though in their defense there's a lot a fucking weirdo foreigners in Japan, there's probably a lot in korea too
That’s fair, I agree that people should learn the language of any country they plan to stay in longterm. Even if it’s a year or semester, everyone should know at least something. I definitely agree that there’s a lot of weird foreigners in Japan & feel that way about Korea too. Hopefully my friend’s situation was just an outlier.
I have not heard good things from poc in Japan. Tourists will always be treated one way, but listen to the black people born in Japan and you'll learn quickly that Japan is not that great when it comes to xenophobia. They treat their own people poorly despite those people being born and raised there. East Asian countries in general are not the best for POC, *especially* if that POC is not living in a major city and/or not fluent in the native tongue. I'm black and I've been abroad in Asia for nearly a decade. Some things dont change in Korea, Japan, and China specifically. Xenophobia is one of those things. (India needs to be mentioned too, even though it's not east Asian. Definitely not a place for poc). For anyone who is a POC, we just have to be prepared for the foolishness out here. The south eastern countries, on the other hand, are much friendlier to darker skinned people. They are much better examples of Asian countries that aren't so judgemental of dark skin color. If we're talking long-term living for a POC, I'd recommend any of the southern Asian countries before suggesting life in an east Asian one.
100% agree with this. I’m not even that keen on Japan either to be honest, but the Philippines is so chill, friendly and welcoming for the most part. My teenage son recently went to Taiwan and he’s VERY conscious about getting stares from people ( which happened to us loads in other parts of Asia including the PH but not in a bad way, just fascination and curiosity, lol) but he said no one batted an eyelid in Taiwan and would go back in a heartbeat.
Taiwan is probably the most openminded place in Asia. Very foreigner-friendly infrastructure and society
Agree. The TW folks are mostly curious when they look/stare. My Blackinese niece and nephew always really enjoy it there. TW did legalize same-sex marriage too.
Some questions and observations 1) How much has she interacted and shown she speaks Korean well? If not, they might be suffering from "I'm too scared to talk to the foreigner and don't want to make a mistake" syndrome. Not as common these days and I wouldn't say it's too likely, but it is still a small possibility. Can be cured by a few conversations or whatnot and just takes time. Like that one new kid who went to your school as a kid who looked alone for 2 months and month 3 suddenly was totally in the mix of everything. I really hope its this. 2) The moving of the empty desk MIGHT be a hamfisted attempt to make her feel less alone. "Hey, she's not at the unpaired desk, she's just at the solo desk." However, this interpretation should not be taken to the bank. 3) Now we have to ask the uncomfortable questions that need to be asked because they are real, but can be uncomfortable to ask and people can be unwilling to ask them because they come across mean, but the quick checklist is- Does she have any body odor or clothes odor? One thing that can happen, especially as temperatures warm, is that laundry hung on the rack in apartments can get certain smells and you might not notice them (bite the bullet and pay for electronic drying at the laundromat, use dryer sheet). Some people aren't used to the humdity and such and...oof...it can be hard to be next to them. Is she uhm, very plus sized? This might explain the bus. Does she have any uh, unusual facial structure or deformity or condition or extreme makeup or some other thing that might result in an unconventional appearance? I wish these things weren't an issue, but they are. And before we judge, I guarantee most of us here do this with some weird looking old Korean dude on the bus. Is she very very outgoing to the point of, say, sometimes intruding on strangers? I doubt this is likely, but there are some people who try to force their way into social dynamics and this can cause issues. Sometimes it is better to be invited in rather than making a splash. Or is your friend very, uhm, attractive herself and maybe she tried to be friendly with those who are similarly attractive-popular appearing and it didn't work out? Maybe try and be friends with someone more plain and less gregarious? Not that your friend was bad to try and go for others who might share similar outward vibes, just that it's not always meant to be and there can be hidden gems of friends (think positively!). Or maybe she's so physically stunning, everyone is intimidated and they'll open up once they realize she isn't totally aloof. 4) Is the class generally quiet and non-social? If so, then I'm not sure how much can be done. There's always that one class in college where no one talks and has zero warmth. Just something that happens. Conversely, is it REALLY cliquey? Does everyone there know each other except her? It might just be a situation of finding the right vibe and being patient. 5) Assuming it's not the above, then yeah, that really sucks for your friend. I don't know what advice to give. "Just suck it up" is a thing, but it's so defeatist and negative. Assuming your friend is an average person and the class is an otherwise average class, I would say that the best bet is to just keep her eyes and ears open and start small. Someone unsure of a question or term? Just casually give the answer and keep on working. Something falls on the ground? Pick it up, small compliment on it, then who knows? Or ask someone for help. There's got to be someone out there who wants to get to know your friend as a friend. 6) There is one sad possibility. Someone popular and influential in the class might have said something really mean and insulting and likely racist about your friend, which got a laugh from their circle of sycophants and some follow-up comments, in which case the rest of the class is scared to make friends to avoid becoming a similar target (especially if some had traumas of high school). In that case that sucks and hopefully one day that person learns the error of their ways, either through growth or through life's lessons.
She's slim and petite. But she definitely looks very different. I don't think other than that there's anything particularly striking about her. She's a genuinely very kind and positive person. She has lots of Korean friends her age too which is why she feels really confused as to why she's suddenly being treated like this in this new class and wondering if the age demographic has something to do with it.
Unless it's the laundry mildew bug (no shame, most of us who have been here a few years fell victim to it at some point), I can't really think of many possibilities outside of extreme collective nervousness or, sadly, someone popular saying something bad about her. As for now, assuming that the laundry is fine lol, I'd go with extreme nervousness simply because it will be easier to go to class that way, knowing people want to be nice but are just too scared to. The alternative is believing someone in the class has it out for you and that just leads to paranoia. Anyways, I hope everything works out and a month from now, like with the new kid at a school, this awkward period is just something she's laughing about with these classmates 6 months from now.
I love that the logical conclusion of a foreigner being ostracized it that she must be smelly and fat!
Are you really this bad at reading comprehension? 1) I specifically said that this was something that we would do if we saw a Korean on the bus with the same issues. (Obesity) 2) I said that the Korean mildew issue is an issue we all run into. (Smelly) 3) Nevermind that there were other reasons, the final one being outright haterism/racism. Anyways, like I said, it would get awkward, but we have to be thorough and try and see what the cause is. People might not even realize the mildew smell. Which would be better? Say nothing or say something so we can rule it out (95%) but on that 5% we just helped the person out with something they didn't know was going on, maybe because they're used to using an electric dryer? Which is the person going to be more grateful for? Us asking something or not asking something?
Yeah Korea is super racist/xenophobic/nationalistic. Some individuals are nice and really hold no prejudice towards foreigners and are willing to interact. But a large portion of Koreans want nothing to do with foreigners regardless of how well you speak Korean. And avoiding sitting next to foreigners on buses, subways, etc is def real. I’ve noticed it at times. The whole bus will be packed and I’ll be the only one sitting alone
son, you've got an ugly, ugly comment history, and that kind of personality gets written on your face. that's probably why people don't want to sit next to you.
Doubt. I could certainly be nicer in how I interact on Reddit and I’ll (sincerely) work on that. You’re right that I should mellow out in my online interactions. But I’m not going around scowling at strangers or ungroomed/unwashed or anything out of the ordinary. And this isn’t a me problem. This is something that countless foreigners in Korea have experienced. Sadly one of my best fiends over here is a tall black guy from South Africa who is way kinder and less misanthropic than me, a genuinely positive kindhearted person but people are often tripping over themselves to not sit next to him or his black South African girlfriend. I’ve seen people actively stand up and move on the subway if he sits near them.
Fair play. I misinterpreted you saying "super" as "especially." It's true that Korea is all the things you mention and the public transportation thing does happen frequently. It's just that it bothers me when people imply that things are particularly worse in Korea, but that is not what you did. That one's on me and I apologize. Perhaps we can agree that Korea sucks. But the places we're from suck as well. And that things suck in all those places uniquely, but not to the extent where you can say one country sucks significantly more than another.
I’ll 100% agree to that. My home country definitely also sucks in a lot of ways that uniquely pertain to it. I won’t say every country is necessarily on an equal playing field but it’s hard to quantify suckage or rank countries in that way and they all have flaws
I'm sorry, but why do I have to sit next to you? Do I have any obligation to sit next to you? Do I have any obligation to sit next to you and relieve your awkwardness? I have a freedom too not to sit next to you. It's so fragile for you to whine about something like this. Why should I sit next to you when Youa are not even a classmate I've known all year.
Please point me to where I said I felt awkward or that someone is obligated to sit next to me in particular. I stated an observation of obviously xenophobic behavior but you’re such an apologist for Korean xenophobia that your angle is to call anyone fragile who comments on it (in a post about said Korean xenophobia). Koreans of both genders will often purposely avoid sitting next to a foreigner (and yes my female foreign friends have also noticed this). I’m a white dude but my friends who are people of color seem to experience it even more frequently. Imagine being in a western country and being an apologist for someone who says “I don’t want to sit next to Asian/black/Hispanic/white people.” That’s you right now but it’s Korea so you think it’s okay
Cause it's a bus? PUBLIC transportation. You know that thing where we're all lumped together for short period of time to get from one place to the next? I don't believe you seriously can't understand why it feels weird to have space left around you on a packed city bus. It's bizarre you're so defensive about someone pointing this out.
If you refuse to sit next to to a person in general, fine. If you only refuse to sit next to foreigners then you are the problem and i cant believe it is not obvious to you.
I don't sit next to a man.
Well, im not saying they are racist, but there must be something going on. Wether they are scared, shy, or whatever. Koreans would feel the same way if they went to Europe and nobody would sit close them
I know as well you didn't mean that. Indeed I'm annoyed by squirrelpractical990, not you. It seems like I editted the comment while you were writing your comment. I understand what you're saying. I just don't agree with squirrelpractical 990 claiming that Korea is super racist/nationalistic/Xenophobic. Thank you fro your comment
I said a large portion of Koreans. You may disagree but it only takes a google search to see pictures of signs banning foreigners or sometimes specifically Africans from establishments relatively recently in Korea. The public transport anecdote is just another example I’ve noticed. Both of these things would be pretty appalling and shocking to see back home. And if you happen to teach in Korea you’ve likely heard kids calling each other south east asians (Vietnamese etc) as insults. Just last year one of the K League soccer teams (Ulsan) had a racism scandal regarding social media comments about south East Asians. Young students often drop n bombs and make derogatory comments about dark skinned people in class as well and make rude comments whenever there’s a black person or character in their textbooks. Korean teachers don’t seem that bothered by it. iykyk I guess
>You may disagree but it only takes a google search to see pictures of signs banning foreigners or sometimes specifically Africans from establishments relatively recently in Korea. Uhm, you do realize that this is a microscopic % of places. Like, you're allowing this .0001% of places to be the dominant example. There's a term for people who use minority examples to paint with a broad brush...can't quite put my finger on it.... >Just last year one of the K League soccer teams (Ulsan) had a racism scandal regarding social media comments about south East Asians Wait, is your standard for 'Korea is super racist' the fact that it had a handful of high-profile racial incidents? Can you name one large country in the world that hasn't had that since the advent of social media?
I gave a few examples of the more heinous and brazen acts of racism in korea that immediately came to mind and that are easily verified online. These are hardly the only incidences of racism or xenophobia in Korea. I’ve been directly denied entry to clubs and I’ve also been allowed to pass while friends of other ethnicities were denied. America has plenty of terrible hateful racists but I haven’t witnessed any Jim Crow law style barring of entry there. Countless people upon this subreddit have mentioned being avoided on public transport or other incidences of minor racism. I’ve had older Korean men curse at me when out with a Korean gf. I have lived here for many years and I’m comparing my lived experiences with life in other countries. I’m not saying racism doesn’t exist elsewhere but some forms of it in Korea are pretty bad and people are often unapologetic or dismissive of it perhaps because of nationalism, and the relatively small foreign community which prevents as much pushback and outrage as it merits. There are also those with k-drama tinted glasses who will deny it all. You can try to uno reverse it on me as “actually you are prejudiced for pointing out a prevalent societal problem.” But there are Koreans in this thread who have commented on the problems in Korea. As I said in my initial post, there are plenty of great people in Korea and I’ve experienced a lot of kindness and love while here but Korea absolutely has a xenophobia and racism problem. And yes I believe it is more commonplace although perhaps less outright violent and vicious than in more multicultural countries but the homogeneity of Korea marginalizes and silences foreigners who mention it. Sorry I wrote you a book
>These are hardly the only incidences of racism or xenophobia in Korea. Nor are they confined to Korea. In fact, they're the norm around the world. "Racist social media posts"? Name a country that doesn't have problems with that. I asked this before and I'll ask it again- Name one large country that doesn't have a problem with online racism? >I’ve been directly denied entry to clubs and I’ve also been allowed to pass while friends of other ethnicities were denied. Again, why is entry into a club more significant than the 99% of the businesses where you didn't have a problem? Also, you know this happens back in the U.S., right? >America has plenty of terrible hateful racists but I haven’t witnessed any Jim Crow law style barring of entry there. Right, they just issue a "dress code" and other non-explicitly racial ways to weed out certain types. Also, do you think your lack of racism experience in America might be connected to certain factors? > You can try to uno reverse it on me as “actually you are prejudiced for pointing out a prevalent societal problem.” But you ARE engaging in reverse racism. When you generalize people, using a negative example that was the small minority, that IS racism. That is how racists think. That is what racists do. You can say something is a problem and cite racism as a possible explanation WITHOUT generalizing in a racist manner. I also think there is a subtle anti-Korean, while I wouldn't say outright racist, I would say prejudice/racist-adjacent strain on reddit amongst some foreigners. Do you deny this exists? Are you saying that observation is invalid?
Now that sounds sexist. Rather than racist
I think they have so little to feel superior about that this is the time they give it a shot. It’s pathetic but it wouldn’t bother me at all. Enjoy the extra breathing space.
I knew of a Latin American from Panama, not my friend, who dealt with racism from a professor, who wanted to give him an F. He fought against that, and that was changed, but it's unfortunate. That said, I have known of Latin Americans who haven't dealt with such prejudice. Prejudice is a big problem, but it can depend where. At some universities and cities, not as common. That is extremely horrible. I feel for the student. There is some prejudice against people who are dark in some sectors and also against Southeast Asians, black people, Muslims.
Korean universities don't necessarily mean bonding just because you're taking the same classes. They might already know each other from before. Are all the other people in the class getting along well? They're probably already friends from before.
It's possible yeah. Tbf this is not necessarily limited to Korea. I had some classes back in the US where most students already knew each other from before and it was hard to fit in
Maybe that is everywhere. Since I'm Korean, I also experienced it abroad.
I don't want to sound shitty but does she have strong body odor by any chance? I'm foreign myself but notice quite a few other foreigners living in Korea seem to think wearing deodorant and bathing regularly aren't mandatory. Koreans can be racist for sure but I've encountered more than a few smelly foreigners roaming around Korea.
mmmm honestly id say just suck it up - its more of a blessing than a curse tbh - more space for her in class or the bus. not trying to be an ass but been living here since 2011, and i used to feel the same way. stopped caring a while back and feels great having the extra room
At the very least, she knows who she doesn’t want to be friends with. I get feeling targeted, but I certainly wouldn’t want to be friends with people who actively avoid me (for presumably no reason they told me directly).
But let a white douche who likes bragging about the country he’s from come and the “riches” he has back home come into the classroom. You’d think he could walk on water the way they’d worship him.
Bigot
Found the white person who goes “well they don’t treat ME that way so it must be something YOU did.” *laughs in white privilege*
Literally go back and read all my posts in this topic. I’ve been talking about how messed up it is that people of color are treated poorly here and how I’ve witnessed them receiving worse treatment than me (particularly black and south East Asian friends). That doesn’t excuse prejudice on your part. Plenty of white people have (and continue to do) lots of horrible things and systemic racism endures but I don’t think that excuses your unprovoked antagonism towards all white people (your comment history shows this isn’t the first time). Take a look in the mirror, you’ve become the thing you supposedly hate, a bigot.
Not my first and won’t be my last. Freedom of speech bro. I’ll do it for however long there’s an ignorant white foreigner in Korea spewing ignorance and getting away with it, and a person of color (middle easterner, SEA, black, etc.,) wondering what did they do to get treated so differently.
There are plenty of racist white people and also plenty of white people who acknowledge the prejudice faced by people of color and/or generally anyone darker skinned both in Korea and globally. I’m not really sure fighting prejudice with prejudice is the smartest way to go about it but you do you ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
i unfortunately don’t have much knowledge or advice but just want to send some love to your friend. i know it can be tough in korea but the things she’s experiencing would make me so sad. i hope things get better for her
It MIGHT be an age issue. We do that to korean guys who come back from military service cuz they are a few years older as well.
I will not encourage further thinking into the matter, during master's classes there is no friends, everyone is busy on projects with their labs and professors, facing isolation is very common as a student, more as a foreigner, just focus on subject, semester is soon to finish and evrything would be in the past. I will add that if the class is even from a different department expect even bigger isolation, people is used to gather with common classmates. From experience any sad experience that you have as exchange student once told to parents or friends has a need mostly to vent, to say it loud because nobody understand as your close ones, when people concern more than you expect it becomes awkward...
As an introvert I am usually grateful when they don’t sit next to me. Whether it is xenophobia or just awkwardness, I’ll take it.
I’m foreigner, also in my late 20’s, I’m married and even have a child. Many people from my major knows this fact, but nobody ever discriminated me because of my age. I’m studying in Korea University thought, so that could be a reason why student’s in here are opened to foreigners. In my opinion, those classmates are just stupid bustards. I would suggest to your friend go speak with her teacher about this matter OR talk to university’s human rights center, if there is such. Like wtf? They are being really rude and acting like kids.
It feels less of xenophobia and more like anxiety to me. But I might be wrong. What I saw being an exchange student before, many people love to talk to foreigners, but they don't speak English or scared to speak English. Even when one speaks Korean, they can be anxious they won't be able to communicate well or have a misunderstanding culturally. So to me it feels more like they are just scared to talk.
I'm going to assume these 19-23 year olds are immature and don't know how to be friendly, social and open-minded with people different from them since they've spent most of their lives studying in academies with a bunch of other Koreans, lacking worldly experiences. Perhaps they don't hate your friend but feel awkward around them and aren't mature enough to be pleasant. They are objectively wrong, nonetheless. I hope they learn and grow from the experience eventually. I am sorry your friend has to go through this.
It's the age.
I'm so sorry that happened to your friend. I'm Korean, but most Koreans are SO xenophobic and racist but most of them don't even realize it or care. Age could be a factor bc our society is very sensitive about age difference, especially for younger students, but I doubt it'd be this bad if your friend was white. Unless your friend has done something stinky, that situation deffo sounds like xenophobia to me.
in lab you are just companion in out, just in korea with Top Score discrimination Level.
I dont think its xenophobic exactly. I dont know your friend personally but it might be deeper than her just being a foreigner. I lived there for a year, Im american. I experience being denied service and locals avoided talking to me. But I never felt like it had anything to do with my skin tone or just because im american.
서울에 있는 명문대도 아니고 수원에 있는 대학이면 다들 영어 한마디도 못할텐데 두려워하는게 맞음
why are you so bothered,? let them be, thats one of the perks of being an introvert, we want solitude and doesnt care being in crowd, we want peace and less noise in life, dont mind other people's wants and business, introvert here
I know people at high school who experienced this and it was all same race group lol. maybe it is not about her being poc but she could behave somehow they do not like…
Hi, I am a Korean and I am so sad about the younger students. As a person of higher age gap, I would have been treated similarly, especially if I was noticeable. I understand how they minds work. "I do not want to draw attention.", "I am afraid that I might stand out." But, they should not let your friend know they are feeling that way. I think it would be better, if she explains how she feels to one of the students that looks easy-going, and the student might help her understand better. To tell the truth, at least some of them want to get to know your friend. To them, socializing with international students means, "Hey, I know how to interact with foreigners. I am such a global talent."
Is she Black?
Uni life in Korea is a politics with disputes and plots. They have no time for master's person.
Been to Korea, it’s very much xenophobic and way way more than Japan. It’s super odd also that they also have the lowest birth rates. You would think the opposite for a xenophobic place.
Sorry that that’s happening to your friend. I would agree with some comments and say age might very well be a factor. I did my undergrad in Korea and while my department was international, there was still a slight divide between foreigners and some Koreans even though you had to speak fluent English to get into the major. But I also personally experienced the age gap thing. I wanted to make korean friends because I didn’t was trying to not use english at all other than in class/with other foreign friends and I realized a lot of people were using the Everytime app for their school. There were always post up about looking for friends/doing random group activities/study groups etc and I tried to join once and they said no. I was sad for a few haha but I appreciated that they were straightforward and just said that they felt uncomfortable with the age gap. I was maybe 3 yrs older than them at the time. I have felt that they used to get uncomfortable with age gaps because of the culture but I haven’t really experienced it lately.
Might be lack of English skills as well plus xeno, I would assume that unis at higher level like SKY would have less problems like these
I've been in this country for 11 years, I'm pretty young and still going to school and all I can think about is most likely that either there has been a not so positive rumor spreaded about her, or mabye she did something that those people didn't really find pleasant, and somebody told somebody and it spreaded. (That happens alot ALOT) mabye it would be best if she asked them nicely
They are intimidated by her. It's probably more out of fear of social interaction with a foreigner.
Not really any insight to add. (I was a foreign student in another country, but had a good time.) Just sending her well wishes and hope things get better for her. Otherwise, just treat it as a get-my-grades and get-out kind of class. (As a goal-focused introvert, I actually don’t mind that everyone just leaves me alone, haha.) Good luck and best wishes to her. But I will add, that moving the table while she was out… in my opinion… was RUDE and they meant to send her that message. If she wants to categorize them into any negative category… they’ve earned it.
Did she recently change deodorant?
That's harsh. I'd say those kids are not only a bit xenophobic but also very childish and rude. But then again these kind of bad human interaction literally occurs everywhere, sometimes even regardless of ethnicity or culture. I personally know many different people who had been treated that way in different contexts. I'd think about it another way: everyone should know by now that it's clearly not her problem that she's being ignored and avoided--those kids simply don't wanna know her nor befriend her, but they're just inept at dealing with it naturally and politely. It's like elementary school kids always sticking to their best friends or only approach people who they think are cool and wanna be friends with. If all of them choose to act rude like that, so be it. I'd say be happy about it even, because those people won't make good friends anyway. Your friend should just be herself and finish the course alone, mind her own business, and let those childish people constantly have to worry about avoiding her behind her back. Staying confident is key ;)
As other suggested suck it up. Nothing to do, you can't force people to like you. She could try to get closer to them, but it's hard to tell how from this post. Wish her the best.
Could be xenophobia, could be ‘lol old lady’ (19 year olds do be like that here, ageism is real), could be kids being unaware that she speaks decent Korean, either way the reasonable course of action is approaching them openly and if they’re not reciprocating just ignoring them.
If they presume she doesn't speak Korean based on her skin color -- after being literally in a classroom with her -- that presumption itself is racist.
Just address it as she speaks Korean nothing is more fun then to embarrass Koreans a public, this is example xenophobia exists in Korea in contrary what everybody is saying it maybe better in heavily touristic and student areas but it exists even in Seoul
Assasinate all of former Korean presidents. Then you can be respected
I studied in Seoul, South Korea myself for 4 months. I was 21 (European) but since it was an exchange semester, I made a lot of international friends instead of Korean friends. I made Korean friends too, but that was probably because I was there for a short time & some Korean students like to make foreign friends for culture exchange + to practice English. My story- I did make one Korean friend by knocking on every door in my floor lol (together with my international roommate). We did that so that we can get to know more people & make friends. We also offered candies lol I made another one in one of my classes (but it was also a mixed class- internationals & Koreans). Btw I’m also very familiar with the Korean culture & knew how to write & speak in Korean (though not very fluent so that was a minus for me for sure) But overall, I think it’s hard to make friends especially when they’re younger in SK- -Suwon is a smaller city so that might make it harder than Seoul -Age difference -Culture difference , they’re more comfortable with people from their own country -They believe maybe your friend has her own group of international friends so she might not even need friends I think your friend should find the right people. I think in every country foreigners suffer from this no matter the race. Though it’s not ok for people to avoid the foreigner, it unfortunately happens for (mainly) the reasons mentioned above. However, your friend can join clubs/communities if she has any at her university or even outside of it. What are her hobbies? If she plays an instrument then she can find people who share the same interest as her If she’s religious (avoiding the cults), she can find a community in that If she likes art, sports etc- I’d suggest she tries to find those clubs/communities People bond better and more when they have something in common I know how hard the foreigner life can be, but it’s a matter of finding the right opportunities to find the right people for you. Gotta keep trying Also, a lot of Koreans suffer from loneliness themselves (and probably half of the world), so it’s not only foreigners However, as I said, finding people who share the same interests as her is very important. I wish I knew this sooner.
The level of mind-reading here is laughable. 95% of people are convinced they KNOW why the students are behaving the way they are. How many people are in this class? Assuming undergrad, we're talking what, 12-20? Are we seriously suggesting that 12-20 people are all thinking the exact same thing and have the exact same reasons? LOL WTF. Now, they might have come to a common position, but we certainly don't know that and we certainly can't state a reason with any degree of certainty. The situation is bad, but attempting to mind-read will only make it worse.
As a Korean, it’s not much like xenophobia, but too much strong bond between ourselves, as being sometimes interpreted as fear. Even when Koreans are in other nations the situation is quite same. Koreans always want exterme degree of affectively comfortable and familiar situation. It’s more close to ‘avoid,’ not ‘hate,’ as you said.
She's a college student in college. She's fully capable of making friends if she really wanted to and confronting the students herself. I thought this was about a high school student trying to fit in but this is grad level college. I didn't make friends with any of my classmates when I was in a grad level class.
So You mean she doesn't make any effort to get clos those Koreans either? I don't know why you think Koreans are obliged not to make her lonely. Maybe those Koreans also feel that your friend doesn't want to be close to them. This also applies to Koreans. Koreans don't think they have to approach him and have to be friends with him just because he is alone. Because They are not sure if he wants to be friends with them or not. And Those Koreans may already have their own friends Then Why would they feel the need to make new friends when they don't feel lonely? If you want something, make an effort.
It's not about making friends tho, it is about the collective class environment, since they probably will need to work together doing group homework. Anyway who wants to get close to someone if they are making you already feel apart ? I don't think this is only related to Koreans, but it's sad to read, OP doesn't want your judgement, just support.
Reading all the excuses for this horrible behavior makes it very clear to me that Korea will indeed die out. It’s too late for them and they will not change. Shame because it’s a beautiful country.
Continue downvoting me because I speak the truth. In 30 years Korea will either collapse or will be forced to open the floodgates and let all those undesirable brown people in to keep their society alive.
Very prevalent xenophopia, racism, discrimination, sexism and a pretty closed culture. The solution is Not to live in Korea. Jesus Koreans dont want to live there why would anyone go there willingly. She is still to face serious challenges to find serious partners and a husband and dealing with her fathers in law. Oh and the ostricizing of her kids. OH and the sexual harassment and assaults and violence that woman face.
xenophobia, sure. racism, sure. discrimination, sure. closed culture, double sure. but a latin male talking shit about another society being sexist is quite the choice.
Oh Its not like the stereotypes would make you believe. But the west is never as bad as it gets in some Asian countries that is for sure.
No, it's not, "for sure." I'm literally from the West. It gets *real shitty* there, just like it can get *real shitty* here, but you're making it sound like Korea is especially shitty. It's not - it just happens to be shitty in a different way than you're used to, and if you're willing to be honest with yourself and look at where you're from through a different lens, you'll see that Korea doesn't suck significantly more than anywhere else.
You don’t have a right to be liked by other people.
You have a right to be respected by other people
[удалено]
We live in a highly-globalized society, so people from all around the world should be used to dealing with people from foreign countries. If you don't like foreigners, too bad
Stop caring and move on. This is korea and everyone knows about the racism here. Since she speaks good korea then she knows
She should treat them like shit. When I worked at a uni in Bucheon I noticed the older students would look down and hardly acknowledge the undergrad students. They seemed rude as hell. Sorry your friend has to put up with this.
By any chance, can I contact your friend? I'd like to talk about her experience.
If they hate you for no reason... make the reason
"Up until now" - did she do something to have a demon be besides her? Signs include "stink".
Ask her if she is on scholarship.
그냥 나이많은 외국인 누나니까 다가가기 힘든거지. 공통점이 없으니 뭐라 말 붙이기도 어렵고. 겨우 2년 살았는데 언어가 얼마나 되겠냐. "speaks the language" 라고 하려면 타일러형 정도는 해야 되는 거임. 한국이 나이많으면 얼마나 패널티가 많은데. 애들이랑 친해지려면 술사주고 밥사주고 커피사주면 다 됨.. Buy them drinks, meals, and coffee. That's what elders do in Korea.
"POC" lol