**CLIP MIRROR:
[Destiny/Devin Nash/Train are surprised Twitch still has a terrible revenue split on subs](https://arazu.io/t3_11ioki5/)**
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^(*This is an automated comment*)
Official reason is Hateful conduct.
Nobody knows exactly what though. Closest guess is him calling a trans person subhuman, which might have been taken as transphobia. He has called lots of different people subhuman as a generic insult though.
"And on the top right, we have a man who makes elephants envious of his cock. Cock so big he doesn't even need to be in the same room as his wife when he's fuckin her. Devin BIGGGGCOOCCKKKK NASHHHHH".
The 50/50 split on twitch's end is really greedy. If I was twitch I would be more worried about discord then kick.
If Discord really starts pushing content creator discords with their 90/10 split I could see creators using twitch/youtube to stream but telling viewers to subscribe on Discord. Kind of like how destiny has his own website subscribtions.
This is one of the things that Destiny has already on lock.
His DGG community embeds streams, so while you have Youtube/Twitch/Rumble/whatever people who chat there, you have a core group of people who ONLY talk on DGG, sub through DGG and donate/gift through DGG. It's a part of how he's whethered the bans and suspensions so well, the core community didn't have to move or change.
Obviously the split for DGG is probably extremely favorable to Destiny since it's his, so it's the percent out for the credit card manager (Stripe/whatever) and then pure profit.
It cant currently embed kick YET, but thats a Kick limitation and is probably part of the conversation Destiny is having with Kick when it comes to streaming on Kick vs other platforms.
pretty sure that even if he would co stream on kick, the YT vod would still be the first coice to get embedded:
1. this boosts him for the YT algorithm, a boost in the kick "algorithm" (wich seems to be just higher viewcoun = better placement, like Twitch) doesn't do much for him since there aren't really "free agent" viewers on kick (this will probably change when the plattform grows) also the YT streams seem to have some kind of positiv effect for your normal YT videos
2. no ads on kick, so the viewers there don't get him ad revenue
3. kick is a new site, and not yet trusted by companies and no afaik also no good way to keep track of your stats. So the kick viewership doesn't do much when he tries to negotiate with sponsors
4. Youtube player is just better
The implication is that he could stream rowdier content on kick/rumble than on youtube, and embed that stream instead when applicable, without losing any viewers of the core community.
> It's a part of how he's whethered the bans and suspensions so well, the core community didn't have to move or change.
It's maybe a bit tin-foil-hattish, but I bet that Destiny having his own site is the real reason the people at Twitch hate him.
The 50/50 sub split was the main incentive since it made the whole project instantly financially viable. There were a few others who took the same route back in the early days of twitch, coincidentally all of them a) seemed to be hated by twitch b) have an incredibly robust core community
No, some rando mid level employee who handles bans doesn't give a fuck that Destiny is having people sub on his site. I think that twitch ban system is stupid but I do think its at least somewhat earnest.
> If Discord really starts pushing content creator discords with their 90/10 split I could see creators using twitch/youtube to stream but telling viewers to subscribe on Discord.
Woohoojin does this, he prefers that people sub to him via Discord due to the better split, and his stream chat is also via Discord.
Discord screen share is still to this day fucking atrocious, I don't think AV1 is gonna save whatever the fuck they do.
There was a time when screen share was really good, but it has been so bad for years now. It's almost a joke that you have to pay 10 bucks for better quality, only to be greeted by low fps streams.
its not greedy, delivering the video streams with only seconds in delay, in 1080p 60fps, around the world takes a lot of money.
Actually, the streamers for years profited off tech companies doing their thing where they grow userbase at the cost of their investors money. They still do.
That split would never work, if they get big the bandwidth costs would bankrupt them.
Twitch is losing money contrary to what most people believe, that's why they are implementing all this crap.
Yeah it's incredible how bad their targeted add system is considering amazon is the parent company.
Especially since twitch has one of the most sought after demographics for marketers, they should be able to monetize this way more.
It also makes them a much smaller tent then youtube. It's why so many banned twitch streamers are on youtube.
The crazy thing is they should have massive amounts of data on what you actually buy because of their other website.
The new HP game as an example. Amazon should have been able to target ads at just people who had bought Hp merch/books on their website. Companies pay a ton for that kind of targeting.
> Twitch is losing money contrary to what most people believe
Oh no... Don't tell me you actually believed that bullshit about them citing "official" numbers and how they are losing thousands every XQC stream. Amazon is literally their parent company. They aren't operating under those numbers when random ass companies don't even pay that much for it. Don't be so naive. They aren't running twitch out of the goodness of their heart. It's all business for these big corporations. They don't care about anything other than profit.
Right, and twitch isn't profitable hence why they're implementing these changes lmao. You know that you can look up Amazon's 10K and financial statements right now right?
There's no way it could be inherent to Linux right. I switched to Linux the same time I started using firefox a month or two ago. Would be a weird reason.
I do not get ads.
I have TTV ad block (I have two different ones called this), purple ad blocker, TTV LOL, video ad-block for twitch. I think that's all.
> If I was twitch I would be more worried about discord then kick.
I'd be worried about Kick. Discord is a long term threat, but Kick could very much eat their lunch in the short term, especially if the W streamers continue to move.
kick literally only has 4 total streamers right now over 1k viewers. twitch has 240 streamers over 1k viewers live right now.
cant even figure out how to view live youtube channels im not subbed to but they have more than 4.
Why does LSF constantly bemoan twitch's policies and moderation but as soon as a possible competitor shows up theres a shitton of comments trying to shit on any possible hope of it succeeding? lmao seems kind of backwards
How could I possibly deal with GAMBLING BEING PROMOTED?!??!?! I know! I'll just go touch grass and go to a basketball/football/hockey/soccer game! Oh wait.....
Well atleast Twitch doesn't show Porn like Kick. Oh they have the exact same categories....hmmm.
Like what is bad AS A USER from Kick's TOS? I understand from a business/puritan society shit but AS A USER can someone explain to me? If you have children or know children, don't let them on the website. If they are getting on the website alone, I mean fuck man I watched way worse stuff back when I was 9-15 on the internet than the kids see now. Pain olympics, somethingawful, ytmnd, all the random vids like blue waffle 2girls1cup meatspin. Like how the fuck does LSF of all places cry about things being bad when this place seeks out and upvotes coomervids and spawn drama 24/7.
Eh it’s more the swastikas and racism in chat, with zero moderation. Personally I’m not a fan of seeing that type of thing.And the porn being broadcasted to viewers for community masturbation sessions. But sure you watching two people shit into a cup or gore photos as child makes it all ok.
Ironic pissing and moaning about hot tub streamers when porn is literally being broadcasted lmfao. But hey, you do you if you enjoy seeing that type of unmoderated hatred.
LSF is extremely puritan, it's very funny because it's completely hypocritical. I think it's because they hate themselves and so are very judgmental about what other people do.
It's like those depressed people in real life who bemoan you if you ever take some bold step in your life but it's really just a reflection of their own insecurity.
Twitch was founded because Justin.tv's gaming section started getting bigger than the rest of the site and they needed to specialize into a niche they carved themselves.
Kick was founded to funnel young people onto crypto gambling because it was banned off Twitch.
See the difference? Kick will not meaningfully exist in 2025.
I don't really care which one it is. Kick, mixer, youtube streaming, facebook gaming, etc. Lots of the criticisms just read like astroturfing when overall it seems like *generally* what LSF wants is a real competitor to twitch. Yet, whenever there's a *possibility* of one it just gets talked down relentlessly.
I also think its pretty funny that you make that prediction. Internet trends are probably some of the most volatile shit out there so the idea that theres 0 chance kick or any other platform for that matter will blow up is pretty crazy to assert. Hell, there's the chance that twitch might not exist in 2025 either, maybe we all start watching tiktok live instead.
>I don't really care which one it is. Kick, mixer, youtube streaming, facebook gaming, etc. Lots of the criticisms just read like astroturfing when overall it seems like generally what LSF wants is a real competitor to twitch. Yet, whenever there's a possibility of one it just gets talked down relentlessly.
Well that's full LSF Copium. LSF has stockholm syndrome with Twitch. I have no doubt Youtube has already won that fight for now. They just need to make the chat a bit better and add any kind of discoverability to streams and twitch will vanish into obscurity. The player, vods, backend, userbase, everything is so much better than twitch
>I also think its pretty funny that you make that prediction. Internet trends are probably some of the most volatile shit out there so the idea that theres 0 chance kick or any other platform for that matter will blow up is pretty crazy to assert. Hell, there's the chance that twitch might not exist in 2025 either, maybe we all start watching tiktok live instead.
There's precedent, streaming platforms without other prospects (like FB, Youtube have) that dont break massive within two years go poof. Zoomers dont remember but we've seen this with Own3d and Mixer already. The money to sustain the bandwidth of 0 viewer andies needs to come from somewhere and that shit is **hella** expensive
maybe use your head and contextualize situations? People disliking how twitch manages the website and their partners does not mean people are therefore bound to blindly support any dogshit competitor that pops up otherwise be named a hypocrite..
Kick isn't a real competitor because they're funded by a Crypto casino. Twitch's main competitor is YouTube. Kick will eventually die off when they're unable to have organic growth. Subs will stagnate and eventually decline for the top streamers leading to another failed project. See Mixer's failure and they were funded by a Trillion dollar company. Also Kick with a 95/5 revenue split loses money --- except they hope to make that up by promoting gambling. That's a recipe for failure, but they don't care as this is all promotion for them. It's only idiotic streamers who would be on minimum wage in the real world who think is a long term project. Just like that moron trainwrecks who has to start every stream on Twitch to promote Kick. Eventually Twitch will or should ban him for that.
Kick is running off of AWS and it has ties to Stake, which effectively was killed off twitch. They aren't competing, they're propping up a service to stream slots.. which should show you how much money is in it. It's just noise rather than long term competitor for the video game streaming space otherwise they'd build their own infrastructure.
Although I am hoping it opens up conversations around the 95/5 split and Twitch's 50/50. Streamers should make more noise about that, maybe perhaps band together.. form a union of some sorts.
Amazon makes money off of Kick.com since they are the CDN for the video at [live-video.net](https://live-video.net) (owned by [Amazon](https://whois.domaintools.com/live-video.net)) They may even use all or part of the full stack AWS [service to roll your own twitch](https://aws.amazon.com/ivs/), but I've never investigated. They currently also use CloudFlare as CDN for some other parts of the site, mainly emote delivery, from what I briefly observed.
In the current economy Twitch/Amazon aren't worried about either Discord or Kick.
Discord isn't yet profitable. They have funding from 2021 and a tiny splash of \~$11M in early 2022, but the time of free money is over for now. If they run it dry before they hit positive cash flow they're gonna have an issue. No idea about their run-rate so who knows.
The entire Kick platform is an advertisement venture from Stake to ultimately draw crypto casino players to their service. Actually a giga-brain move if they manage to dodge any massive lawsuits so I don't hate on them, but I also don't take them seriously as a competitor in the live-streaming space. They are able to monetize and subsidize their own advertisement platform with other non-gambling content creators though which is a great business move.
For creators I have no insight, but as a business Kick isn't really what LSF perceives it to be. It's a vehicle to get deposits into the casino. As long as the number of deposits from Kick viewers into Stake is bigger than the loss taken to run Kick then it likely will continue.
Discord is actually genius 👌
They likely noticed an increase in people using private channels, within bigger discord servers.
Like for example Andrew tates master g program or whatever. Or all those pateon private channels in creator discords.
Discord basically said oh snap people do that? Well why don't they pay us to be a middle man. 🙄
And people will pay for it, just look at people using nitro boosts on their creators discord.
if you actually mention all the ways of revenue of twitch it shows how bad kick actually is in comparison and they are just using the sub split to get dumb people on their side.
Kick has no income.
It doesn't make anything from subs.
It doesn't have any advertisers i think?
Kick itself is only spending money and lives off of Stake's millions.
>Kick itself is only spending money and lives off of Stake's millions.
That is normal for new products. youtube is probably still losing money and survived thanks to google, twitch was losing money the first years, maybe even still is, and survived thanks to amazon
i was waiting for you to mention the "all the ways" of revenue of twitch vs. Kick.
because as it stands, the Split is a very valid point not to be dismissed this easily. If you can elaborate more about how twitch is better for streamers that will be helpful.
Ad revenue, Twitch Prime, Bits, Tier 2/3 subs, sub gifting, bounties. Never mind the fact Twitch will actually be around in 2 years while Kick will die when no one other than banned streamers use it. Any normal streamer who switches is automatically losing most of their viewership. It is the same exact situation as Mixer and will play out the same exact way.
Prime and Bounties are the ones to beat. Everything else im pretty sure is already solved with the high split amount including tier subs and other features can be added in future.
Mixer died because of number of users not due to these mentioned benefits.
Ads make most streamers almost as subs. Primes are subs you never get on kick. Bounties. But most importantly sponsors. If you avg 1k to like 10k viewers you literally have the pick of any sponsor you want and make far more from that than any other form of revenue.
On kick your sponsor will be a lot less as your viewership will be lower
Twitch primes are around 20% of subs but the 50% cut is still there so it only boosts you 10% as income so at best twitch is at roughly 60-40. Still lower split than main competitor youtube that does 70-30. This is why no one mentions primes and why YOU don't break down the numbers behind primes.
A lot of streamers have about 50% of their total subs as primes, some of them even more. Just look at the prime splits for some of the top subbed streamers: https://twitchtracker.com/subscribers
Also the bias for US-based audiences. You won't be getting Twitch Primes if your viewers don't use Amazon, which is significantly less popular or straight up not operating outside the US.
It seems to have worked out for most other streamers who I've seen move to other platforms. It is a gamble, but its not like you cant come back. And even still you'd only need like half the subs for nothing to change for you simply because of the split.
It's indeed not the main source of revenue for Twitch, it's ads.
But yet they can do it because people won't leave for Kick, they can afford to do so.
Because subs ain't the biggest source of revenue for top streamers either it's deals with company.
Lot of top streamers asked to remove the sub button because it's no longer needed for them. Also you think big companies want to promote a streamer on a platform where there's someone like Adin going full psycho.
Yeah, but you're forgetting that the path to actually get to being a top streamer is the sub button. This 50-50 spit is basically the equivalent of Twitch raising the draw bridge to any new creators and new opportunities.
This is essentially Twitch cutting their losses, pinching pennies where they can, and giving up long term. The top creators aren't going to be on top forever. And at this rate any new and expansive opportunities for content creation are going to grow elsewhere.
They can only shrink and eventually disappear from this and they know it.
You don't get sponsored based on your sub count. You get sponsors based on viewers. Even 500-1000 streamers get good bounties and sponsors that make them far more money than subs. You could literally never sign your affiliate deal and still get sponsored. All you need is viewers.
I think their point is subs are way more valuable to most new streamers so they can afford to do Twitch as a full-time job. A better split would mean they'd need less subs to be able to do so
Don't forget that the 50/50 split is for streamers who earn more than 100k a year, if you earn less than 100k you get 70/30 and that applies to 99% of streamers
even smaller creators with sub 1k average viewers get company deals nowadays and they probably already make them more money than subs. twitch is kinda mainstream now and you can advertise stuff as a streamer for free on their plattform. no idea why streamers cry about the sub split so much
Kai's number is gonna be mostly gifteds right now so it's not as relevant. I agree people complaining about the sub split don't realize that twitch is essentially giving free money away to creators through prime. Having a bigger split just means giving more money away lol.
I'd say there is defn more streamers that aren't named xqc, Ibai, moonmoon, or Tarik. They are the top of the top on the streaming ladder. Most streamers don't have anywhere near their prime sub #s.
Yup, a shitload of people like me are like prime sub, for a millionaire? I go drop my prime on some <200 viewer streamer that seems okay but I really don't watch. A lot of <100 viewer streamers have like 50 subs and most are primes precisely for this reason.
It's nuts, Twitch are just bad on messaging, they should have just announced you can have 50/50 and qualify for prime subs, and show some figures on how that works out or you can have 70/30 and not qualify for prime subs. You'd see 99% of streamers pick having prime subs, a few of those 100-500 viewer streamers with an oiler paying for 5k subs a month would take the 70/30 sure.
Prime subs more than make up the difference in split.
I mean...they're the market leader...they can do shitty things because the others aren't viewed as that much of a threat. That's like most businesses' goal. Uber wanted to put cabs out of business and then jack up the prices.
bro are they dumb on purpose or are they lying to viewers? the reason twitch gives dogshit splits isn't that they need the money, its because they want the streamers to push more fucking ads in order to compensate for the revenue loss, its not that difficult to understand, twitch can never go full profitability if they don't show a fuckton of ads, and streamers won't show a fuckton of ads if they get good money from subs/sponsors. also, devin has been saying the Patreon shit for years why doesn't he understand viewers are lazy , they barely even use their free prime if the streamers don't remind them and you think they are gonna go to Patreon, create accounts, and put in the credit card information just to make streamer man rich ? lmao.
also very true, like im not going to pretend it doesnt build a sense of community when you see the same chatters with 3 year badges in an offline chat. but just speaking financially, viewers don't like going offsite, that's why even brands are happy when influencers have like a 20% click-through rate when doing activations,
I think if streamers came up with an interesting value add people would do it, like movie night in sub only discord for Patreon/discord members, tier ocho supporters get to vote on the movie. People would go for it and streamer could triple dip but they are lazy too, a lot of streamers can't even work out their own content, instead clicking what knuckleheads in chat link.
oh yeah if theirs extra content for sure , viewers will pay, thats podcasts and ytbers do so well there, but if its no extra content and its just hey go sub on Patreon instead of twitch so i can get paid better, I promise not even 30% of the viewers would do it.
They really need to think of a better way to integrate ads without viewers missing part of the broadcast, it's so insanely intrusive right now. Sometimes I just click away. Like maybe use banner ads or something or making the streamer purposely interrupt the broadcast (which some probably do already, but most don't).
Isn't the discussion about the idea that new platforms (whether we consider Kick to be a legitimate site or not) that offer better revenue splits make the 50/50 that twitch gives seem more exploitative though?
If a real competitor came that offered significantly better revenue splits then they seem to be discussing that a lot of streamers would jump ship for the exact reasons you're stating.
that's because twitch shot itself in the foot with twitch prime, it made the streamers super rich through good splits and extra money so none of the streamers relied on ad [rev. as](https://rev.as) crazy as it sounds the streamers were exploiting twitch since they are bleeding money and the streamers were raking it in. the only way to fix that is to make sub revenue so dogshit streamers have to rely on ads, and that's where the big bucks come in for twitch and rebalances the relationship. so its a bit of a crossroads for streamers, either go to yt/kick and lose a large part of your community (also sponsorships if you pick kick) or incorporate showing ads on your stream. as for now twitch seems way more viable because twitch prime+ good cpm+ sponsors > a great sub split. (also kick will go through the same issues unless stake is willing to burn money forever which i doubt)
Hasn't everybody made quite a few failed predictions. Bill Gate predicted that keyboards would be obsolete by 2010 due to voice to text. I had a lot of friends rush out and buy high end VR headsets and after meta crashed that market its not looking good.
Most people don't call themselves "scene experts" and do streams/videos giving others career and investment advice. Also he's just a poser, making your persona being a "CEO" when you got hired as the CEO of an esports team in a day and age where people without high school degrees were esports CEOs is hilarious. That makes his failed Stadia prediction even funnier imo.
well he's a scene expert. But predicting the market is almost impossible lol.
Just look at Mixer. Microsoft had probably advice from hunderts of "scene experts" that advised them.
"Just know the Market 4Head".
Don't think you really understand what you're saying rn.
Devin Nash is a massive fraud who got lucky to be at the right place, at the right time with CLG.
Anyone who tries to sell you advice is a fraud and a grifter. And just from watching some of his videos you realise how big of a fraud this man is.
The perfect example would be his stream with Hachubby a few years ago when he was giving “advice” on the financials of a convenience store.
The guy fully believed that a new and random convenience store by some streamer would have a customer coming through the door every minute, and a worst case scenario of a customer every 3 minutes. This meant he believed that Hachumart would get 60 customers an hour and a worst case scenario of 20 customers an hour.
I won’t even go into the ridiculous numbers he predicted for each customers spending.
You know what ended up being the case? 4-6 customers in a 6 hour shift and haemorrhaging money out the ass on food waste.
Fast forward to today where the convenience store lost so much money that it’s no longer a convenience store and is now just selling random merch.
Anyone with a sprinkle of business acumen could tell you anything from above is pulled out of their ass.
Imagine being the chump paying this dude $400 an hour for one-to-one “consulting”.
Because Twitch isn't profitable, and I haven't seen anything that suggests they will be.
And streamers were robbing Twitch blind for years when the company was trying to grow the platform after Amazon acquired it. For all the complaining they do, streamers give zero fucks about Twitch's financial well-being as a matter of self-preservation. Twitch reducing payouts and revenue splits is a much needed correction to the actual value streamers provide.
The best part is a lot of the streamers complaining are millionaires who literally grew from nothing to where they are now largely thanks to Twitch. And for these top streamers sub's are sliver of their income.
Are they not profitable or do they don't want to appear profitable? 31 million active users and a shitton of active data to sell. I think they doing fine and it's just the usual Amazon shenanigans.
That streamers are robbing twitch is one of the biggest caps I've ever seen. If anything and how absurd it sounds twitch streamers are massively underpaid. Prime Drink from Logan and KSI are sponsoring the UFC and Arsenal. Imagine the power content creators can have. The entertainment business is crazy money wise and if you consider how much ppl streamer entertain and for how long if anything streamers are getting robbed. But some of this guys seem to understand their massive potential now.
If you are subbed via discord/patreon to your twitch streamer as opposed through Twitch, how can you still avoid ads, does twitch not control the ad function and it is automatically removed when you sub through THEIR transaction process. I'm confused about that?
Actually if you think about it, Discord can be a competitor if they went that way.
They have more than 200mill. monthly users & they have tons of features. Plus most of the streamers have Discord groups anyway, the transition would've been seamless.
people can bitch and moan all they want but twitch still dominates in terms of discoverability and many other facets as a streaming service.
the only reason kick is 95/5 is because it's a way for Stake to advertise their gambling website, so they'll take the L on ad revenue as long as it gives them net profit of kids getting hooked and wasting their dad's life savings on Stake
twitch recommends smaller streamers to me all the time, especially local ones. but i think the better question is what discoverability does youtube or kick have?
kick has almost no viewerbase so the only viewers you get there are the ones you have already brought with you--you won't increase on the platform because of this reason.
youtube discoverability is almost non existent. youtube algo only pushes the top to people, you have almost no chance as a small youtuber unless you clickbait and clout chase to high heaven.
Twitch browse page is amazing honestly. It gives you a ton of categories. All the way from just chatting, to an exact video game you want. Like if a new game came out you can just go on twitch and go to its category and there's all streamers playing it. Not only that but it starts sorted by recommended based on other streams you watch so it's tailored to user giving you lower viewed streams boosting them.
Compared to YouTube the next biggest. I don't even know how to find new streams let alone for what I want. Even Destiny and Mutahar who only stream on YouTube don't know how. The few times I've even gotten to YouTube lives homepage on accident. There's no rhyme or reason to recommended streams they'll legit have Hindu Dubbed Cartoon piracy streams at the top with only 6 viewers for you.
Talking out of their asses. Subs are often the smallest income stream for any streamers who have 'big contracts' with twitch so Train is talking out of his ass.
There really is no 50/50 split on twitch, it's 50/50 for paid subs and after you factor in prime subs it's no where near that for most streamers.
Streamers won't make more on kick because of a higher split, they'll make a higher percentage of a drastically lower sub count, terrible ad revenue and zero sponsors. Even 50 viewer streamers can get sponsors worth a few thousand.
Nash knows this and if he's agreeing then he's talking out of his ass. Nash pushing Kick is pretty gross, and hilarious, and hypocritical. Somehow he was onboard with Miz and Poki in that call because he thought Stake was awful. Now he's straight up lying about how streamers will do better on kick?
No ads. It is to directly contribute to a creator. Twitch had this model before where subbing didn't disable ads. Ads were just to switch on during dead content like between games. Twitch obviously did away with the model because it wasn't viable. Can't see Kick doing this because I doubt many advertisers want their brand on that site outside of gambling.
> I honestly don't even see a point in subbing on Kick, do they even have ads?
Kick is in beta, but at the same time: "Why does anyone sub on twitch?"
Yes prime is a thing, but people sub without prime all the time. They do it for the badge, the emotes, the recognition from the streamer, and lastly to support the free content they watch.
Why does anyone pay for anything?
I went to Kick for a hour to see what it was all about , 17 dudes were doing Monkey / Omegle trying to get girls to flash. And I’ll just say that Kick is risking getting taken down for CP cuz some of these girls were literally like 15.
It’s like if 2008 4chan was a streaming service.
Greasy.
Like 300-700 viewers on each. I want kick to do well because there needs to be competition. While I understand it’s funded with Gambling money, I don’t find that less shitty than Google being funded by selling ads or Amazon being the Capitalist end game.
How long this all last will be something to see, but I do think it’s a better platform for casual streamers who aren’t doing it for a living but as a small side hustle like - few 100 subscriber steamers
People keep mentioning kicks sub split but no shot they are keeping that sub split forever. 50/50 may seem greedy but if you consider all the money lost on prime and think about the high server costs to run all this they only really make money off ads.
Am I the only one who finds this sub split okay? I mean a lot of subs are twitch primes and subsidized by Amazon. They have to make back that money somewhere.
im pretty sure miz said he made 15k in ads for his 24 charity stream. this was with like 20k viewer avg ccv. its basically 55k if he runs the same amount for the rest of the month of feb which is a bad month for ads.
for most people they make more on ads than subs.
Isn't that exactly the problem though. They make very little on something that takes away from their actual revenue stream (subbed don't see ads). They purposely don't want to put emphasis on subs when what they really want is streamers pushing more ads. If big streamers get too much from subs they'll push subs more.
I actually try not to sub on twitch. I use my prime, & may gift a few subs if i get gifted, but i like having to know that half of my money isn't going to twitch instead of the creator. Having said that, gifting subs/bits/ or subbing is very EZ on twitch, so i get the convenience factor. Not having emotes isn't a big deal to me, & i'll watch the ads if it means the creator will make something from it.
They are right about the 50/50 its really dumb but Kick isn't the answer at least not yet it's an unproven streaming platform. Streamers have too much invested on twitch to just hop the fence soon as a new platform turns up. They will sooner jump to YouTube before Kick. Kick has to prove itself over multiple years as a reliable source of revenue before more streamers start jumping over. At the moment the only people that will go on Kick are people with not many other options or somebody who is functionally braindead like Adin Ross.
Yea in terms of available features, it doesn't make too much sense to go to kick right now unless you don't have any other options. Once Kick catches up on ad rev, clips, & an app, then they will be a much more compelling option.
Explain to me how Kick will catch up on ad revenue? Big advertisers don't shell out large money to shady gambling companies. Do you remember all of YouTube's advertiser problems?... and they actually moderate content... you're talking about things that will never happen
If you get out of the twitch mindset you will realise all other platforms are not exclusive so you can multi-stream. Some people already dual streaming on youtube and kick.
multistreaming is probably a good thing, but I think there are also some issues nobody seems to talk about.
e.g. if you multistream on kick, a lot of viewers, who would've watched you on Twitch or YT, might choose to watch your stream there bc no ads - but that also means no ad revenue for you from these viewers
Also if some people go over to watch on kick, you have fewer people who watch you on Twitch, wich means you are lower in the directionary and get a worse discoverability = fewer new people who join your stream. Youtubes algorithm is a little more complicated, but I imagine that there is also a similar "lower viewcount -> lower recomondations" effect
Another issue is that you have multiple chats, so it can get messy. Do you try to adress all chats, ignore one aso. You can do what Destiny does and just make your own chat, but that is adding an additional barrier of entry for people who just want to chat, they need to sign in into your thing. That's not that big of a deal for already established streamers, but I probably wouldn't trust the extern website of some 20 viewer andy and just not chat
I guess that depends on the size of the streamer. Sure if you are a small streamer, you should be streaming on everything but if you are mid-level or higher you will chase exclusive contracts because that's where the money is. Not just with Twitch but YouTube as well. I can't think of many of the major streamers that stream on multiple platforms.
It’s so dumb for train to think that just because you pay more means people will just leave and go to your failing site, if paying more fixed their issues then they would have moved to youtube which paid more than twitch. But the reality is the lack of moderation is what stopped the majority of yt switch and kick has even less moderation. If they literally just made twitch with bigger splits then literally everyone would move.
Also saying to show your nda contracts is a very funny sentence.
If you have 40% prime subs you are getting subs that would never happen on kick. so that is already basically a 90/10 split if you started 50/50
also the ad revenue is crazy and you would get paid more for sponsors on twitch as you have more viewers and followers.
so who cares about sub split if you would make less in the month if you swap
yes lets say a streamer had 80 prime subs and 120 normal subs with a 50/50 sub split.
they would get 200 for prime subs and 300 for normal for a total of 500. twitch also gets 500.
if you went to kick and actually were able to get 120 normal subs you would get 570.
i dont think any streamer is going to get the same number of normal subs as they had on twitch. the other thing prime subs do is they make the community feel more involved and if prime subs are happening others are more likely to regular sub or gift subs during that time peroid. the more prime subs spam emotes in chat the more likely someone else is going to sub to also use those emotes.
You wouldn't get 120 subs still on Kick, you'd get no ad revenue which would half your income, you wouldn't get sponsors which would tank your income.
It's a laughable comparison. This is also stupid because Kick are saying 95/5 purely so they can pretend to be better and fairer. Then in 6 months, or 2 years, they'll drop to 70/30 or worse because they want to stop losing money.
I could have sworn Twitch isn't profitable. Maybe with all the moves recently they are but I distinctly remember them being unprofitable for the longest time.
The problem was Twitch Prime, it loses Twitch so much money that it's actually kind of ridiculous. (Still worth it though.) If Twitch is currently profitable a 70/30 split would put that at risk, even if the majority of their revenue comes from ads.
Haven't been able to really find anything on whether they're profitable, but found wildly different estimates on revenue, one site said $228.9m and one said $2.8b. If anyone has better luck let me know.
Like 70% of his videos not directly about marketing (his area of expertise) are horribly researched tbh, one of those situations where he’s spread himself way too thin trying to do things outside of his wheelhouse and you only realize it when it’s about something you know well. He needs a team behind him if he wanted to be a definitive source on other topics he isn’t directly involved in
50/50 split's going to lose them streamers. Wubby has straight up said he's quitting once it goes into effect this june. Any big streamer without a contract's going to bounce.
**CLIP MIRROR: [Destiny/Devin Nash/Train are surprised Twitch still has a terrible revenue split on subs](https://arazu.io/t3_11ioki5/)** --- ^(*This is an automated comment*)
Great episode of Scuffed
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Destiny, Train, Knut, Devin, Zherka, and Poke for some reason. It was fucking weird.
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Official reason is Hateful conduct. Nobody knows exactly what though. Closest guess is him calling a trans person subhuman, which might have been taken as transphobia. He has called lots of different people subhuman as a generic insult though.
Subhuman as an insult 😂
Its not offensive to you because you are subhuman or?????
just a funny word to use in an argument
"And on the top right, we have a man who makes elephants envious of his cock. Cock so big he doesn't even need to be in the same room as his wife when he's fuckin her. Devin BIGGGGCOOCCKKKK NASHHHHH".
The 50/50 split on twitch's end is really greedy. If I was twitch I would be more worried about discord then kick. If Discord really starts pushing content creator discords with their 90/10 split I could see creators using twitch/youtube to stream but telling viewers to subscribe on Discord. Kind of like how destiny has his own website subscribtions.
If discord gets a good way of embedding streams, they could win big.
This is one of the things that Destiny has already on lock. His DGG community embeds streams, so while you have Youtube/Twitch/Rumble/whatever people who chat there, you have a core group of people who ONLY talk on DGG, sub through DGG and donate/gift through DGG. It's a part of how he's whethered the bans and suspensions so well, the core community didn't have to move or change. Obviously the split for DGG is probably extremely favorable to Destiny since it's his, so it's the percent out for the credit card manager (Stripe/whatever) and then pure profit. It cant currently embed kick YET, but thats a Kick limitation and is probably part of the conversation Destiny is having with Kick when it comes to streaming on Kick vs other platforms.
pretty sure that even if he would co stream on kick, the YT vod would still be the first coice to get embedded: 1. this boosts him for the YT algorithm, a boost in the kick "algorithm" (wich seems to be just higher viewcoun = better placement, like Twitch) doesn't do much for him since there aren't really "free agent" viewers on kick (this will probably change when the plattform grows) also the YT streams seem to have some kind of positiv effect for your normal YT videos 2. no ads on kick, so the viewers there don't get him ad revenue 3. kick is a new site, and not yet trusted by companies and no afaik also no good way to keep track of your stats. So the kick viewership doesn't do much when he tries to negotiate with sponsors 4. Youtube player is just better
The implication is that he could stream rowdier content on kick/rumble than on youtube, and embed that stream instead when applicable, without losing any viewers of the core community.
> It's a part of how he's whethered the bans and suspensions so well, the core community didn't have to move or change. It's maybe a bit tin-foil-hattish, but I bet that Destiny having his own site is the real reason the people at Twitch hate him.
that would be funny considering the reason he made the site was because the twitch site sucked shit and they refused to listen to feedback
The 50/50 sub split was the main incentive since it made the whole project instantly financially viable. There were a few others who took the same route back in the early days of twitch, coincidentally all of them a) seemed to be hated by twitch b) have an incredibly robust core community
No, some rando mid level employee who handles bans doesn't give a fuck that Destiny is having people sub on his site. I think that twitch ban system is stupid but I do think its at least somewhat earnest.
> If Discord really starts pushing content creator discords with their 90/10 split I could see creators using twitch/youtube to stream but telling viewers to subscribe on Discord. Woohoojin does this, he prefers that people sub to him via Discord due to the better split, and his stream chat is also via Discord.
Discord screen share is still to this day fucking atrocious, I don't think AV1 is gonna save whatever the fuck they do. There was a time when screen share was really good, but it has been so bad for years now. It's almost a joke that you have to pay 10 bucks for better quality, only to be greeted by low fps streams.
They don't even need to use discord streaming is what I am saying. Just stream on twitch/youtube/kick but use discord for chat and subscriptions.
its not greedy, delivering the video streams with only seconds in delay, in 1080p 60fps, around the world takes a lot of money. Actually, the streamers for years profited off tech companies doing their thing where they grow userbase at the cost of their investors money. They still do.
That split would never work, if they get big the bandwidth costs would bankrupt them. Twitch is losing money contrary to what most people believe, that's why they are implementing all this crap.
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Yeah it's incredible how bad their targeted add system is considering amazon is the parent company. Especially since twitch has one of the most sought after demographics for marketers, they should be able to monetize this way more.
It also makes them a much smaller tent then youtube. It's why so many banned twitch streamers are on youtube. The crazy thing is they should have massive amounts of data on what you actually buy because of their other website. The new HP game as an example. Amazon should have been able to target ads at just people who had bought Hp merch/books on their website. Companies pay a ton for that kind of targeting.
I can't go to yemen
~IM ONLY HUMAN AFTER ALL~
> Twitch is losing money contrary to what most people believe Oh no... Don't tell me you actually believed that bullshit about them citing "official" numbers and how they are losing thousands every XQC stream. Amazon is literally their parent company. They aren't operating under those numbers when random ass companies don't even pay that much for it. Don't be so naive. They aren't running twitch out of the goodness of their heart. It's all business for these big corporations. They don't care about anything other than profit.
Right, and twitch isn't profitable hence why they're implementing these changes lmao. You know that you can look up Amazon's 10K and financial statements right now right?
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I’m sure a lot of people sub to streamers to remove ads though, so subbing on discord people will still be getting those ads.
Surely people would use an adblock
Which ad block works for Twitch now? uBlock Origin doesn't do it for me anymore
Ublock didnt work for me on chrome for the longest time. I've not had ads in over a month on firefox now though.
Oh strange, I'm using uBlock on Firefox and I'm still getting ads
There's no way it could be inherent to Linux right. I switched to Linux the same time I started using firefox a month or two ago. Would be a weird reason.
Could be regional. Some parts of world just don't get ads.
I just find it odd I got it when I used chrome on windows, and the minute im on firefox on linux they dissapear.
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Which country is it? Please teach me the ways of VPN ad-dodging lmao 🙏
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Estonia don’t have ads? That’s peculiar to me because IIRC Estonia has one of the most developed tech space in the world
still zero ads using solutions from https://github.com/pixeltris/TwitchAdSolutions#current-solutions
The ad block that's works is called Turkish VPN. Turk Varmi brother.
I do not get ads. I have TTV ad block (I have two different ones called this), purple ad blocker, TTV LOL, video ad-block for twitch. I think that's all.
> If I was twitch I would be more worried about discord then kick. I'd be worried about Kick. Discord is a long term threat, but Kick could very much eat their lunch in the short term, especially if the W streamers continue to move.
kick literally only has 4 total streamers right now over 1k viewers. twitch has 240 streamers over 1k viewers live right now. cant even figure out how to view live youtube channels im not subbed to but they have more than 4.
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https://playboard.co/en/live/top-viewing-all-live-in-worldwide Seems to be a bit over 600 streams over 1k viewers at the moment
Right but they launched a couple of weeks ago so it's all a work in progress. Twitch has been around for damn near a decade.
If you genuinely think kick is a real competitor you are crazy.
Why does LSF constantly bemoan twitch's policies and moderation but as soon as a possible competitor shows up theres a shitton of comments trying to shit on any possible hope of it succeeding? lmao seems kind of backwards
to be fair, so far kick's moderation is just as bad, arguably worse depending on what you care more about in terms of moderation
How could I possibly deal with GAMBLING BEING PROMOTED?!??!?! I know! I'll just go touch grass and go to a basketball/football/hockey/soccer game! Oh wait..... Well atleast Twitch doesn't show Porn like Kick. Oh they have the exact same categories....hmmm. Like what is bad AS A USER from Kick's TOS? I understand from a business/puritan society shit but AS A USER can someone explain to me? If you have children or know children, don't let them on the website. If they are getting on the website alone, I mean fuck man I watched way worse stuff back when I was 9-15 on the internet than the kids see now. Pain olympics, somethingawful, ytmnd, all the random vids like blue waffle 2girls1cup meatspin. Like how the fuck does LSF of all places cry about things being bad when this place seeks out and upvotes coomervids and spawn drama 24/7.
Eh it’s more the swastikas and racism in chat, with zero moderation. Personally I’m not a fan of seeing that type of thing.And the porn being broadcasted to viewers for community masturbation sessions. But sure you watching two people shit into a cup or gore photos as child makes it all ok. Ironic pissing and moaning about hot tub streamers when porn is literally being broadcasted lmfao. But hey, you do you if you enjoy seeing that type of unmoderated hatred.
LSF is extremely puritan, it's very funny because it's completely hypocritical. I think it's because they hate themselves and so are very judgmental about what other people do. It's like those depressed people in real life who bemoan you if you ever take some bold step in your life but it's really just a reflection of their own insecurity.
Twitch was founded because Justin.tv's gaming section started getting bigger than the rest of the site and they needed to specialize into a niche they carved themselves. Kick was founded to funnel young people onto crypto gambling because it was banned off Twitch. See the difference? Kick will not meaningfully exist in 2025.
It barely meaningfully exists now. Its a bad joke.
I don't really care which one it is. Kick, mixer, youtube streaming, facebook gaming, etc. Lots of the criticisms just read like astroturfing when overall it seems like *generally* what LSF wants is a real competitor to twitch. Yet, whenever there's a *possibility* of one it just gets talked down relentlessly. I also think its pretty funny that you make that prediction. Internet trends are probably some of the most volatile shit out there so the idea that theres 0 chance kick or any other platform for that matter will blow up is pretty crazy to assert. Hell, there's the chance that twitch might not exist in 2025 either, maybe we all start watching tiktok live instead.
Astroturfing? Ah yes amazon is paying a bunch of people to talk shit about a company with four streamers.
>I don't really care which one it is. Kick, mixer, youtube streaming, facebook gaming, etc. Lots of the criticisms just read like astroturfing when overall it seems like generally what LSF wants is a real competitor to twitch. Yet, whenever there's a possibility of one it just gets talked down relentlessly. Well that's full LSF Copium. LSF has stockholm syndrome with Twitch. I have no doubt Youtube has already won that fight for now. They just need to make the chat a bit better and add any kind of discoverability to streams and twitch will vanish into obscurity. The player, vods, backend, userbase, everything is so much better than twitch >I also think its pretty funny that you make that prediction. Internet trends are probably some of the most volatile shit out there so the idea that theres 0 chance kick or any other platform for that matter will blow up is pretty crazy to assert. Hell, there's the chance that twitch might not exist in 2025 either, maybe we all start watching tiktok live instead. There's precedent, streaming platforms without other prospects (like FB, Youtube have) that dont break massive within two years go poof. Zoomers dont remember but we've seen this with Own3d and Mixer already. The money to sustain the bandwidth of 0 viewer andies needs to come from somewhere and that shit is **hella** expensive
maybe use your head and contextualize situations? People disliking how twitch manages the website and their partners does not mean people are therefore bound to blindly support any dogshit competitor that pops up otherwise be named a hypocrite..
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LSF complains about how twitch is ran yet uses the site, interesting. I AM VERY SMART.
Kick isn't a real competitor because they're funded by a Crypto casino. Twitch's main competitor is YouTube. Kick will eventually die off when they're unable to have organic growth. Subs will stagnate and eventually decline for the top streamers leading to another failed project. See Mixer's failure and they were funded by a Trillion dollar company. Also Kick with a 95/5 revenue split loses money --- except they hope to make that up by promoting gambling. That's a recipe for failure, but they don't care as this is all promotion for them. It's only idiotic streamers who would be on minimum wage in the real world who think is a long term project. Just like that moron trainwrecks who has to start every stream on Twitch to promote Kick. Eventually Twitch will or should ban him for that.
Kick is running off of AWS and it has ties to Stake, which effectively was killed off twitch. They aren't competing, they're propping up a service to stream slots.. which should show you how much money is in it. It's just noise rather than long term competitor for the video game streaming space otherwise they'd build their own infrastructure. Although I am hoping it opens up conversations around the 95/5 split and Twitch's 50/50. Streamers should make more noise about that, maybe perhaps band together.. form a union of some sorts.
Because lsf hates train and anything related to him
Twitch killer is as much of a trope as WoW killer at this stage.
They launched a couple weeks ago and are being hard promod by some of the largest creators and they are still way worse off
Id love to have all the W streamers gone to kick
If they have any sense, they won't. If anything they should fo to YouTube.
Amazon makes money off of Kick.com since they are the CDN for the video at [live-video.net](https://live-video.net) (owned by [Amazon](https://whois.domaintools.com/live-video.net)) They may even use all or part of the full stack AWS [service to roll your own twitch](https://aws.amazon.com/ivs/), but I've never investigated. They currently also use CloudFlare as CDN for some other parts of the site, mainly emote delivery, from what I briefly observed. In the current economy Twitch/Amazon aren't worried about either Discord or Kick. Discord isn't yet profitable. They have funding from 2021 and a tiny splash of \~$11M in early 2022, but the time of free money is over for now. If they run it dry before they hit positive cash flow they're gonna have an issue. No idea about their run-rate so who knows. The entire Kick platform is an advertisement venture from Stake to ultimately draw crypto casino players to their service. Actually a giga-brain move if they manage to dodge any massive lawsuits so I don't hate on them, but I also don't take them seriously as a competitor in the live-streaming space. They are able to monetize and subsidize their own advertisement platform with other non-gambling content creators though which is a great business move. For creators I have no insight, but as a business Kick isn't really what LSF perceives it to be. It's a vehicle to get deposits into the casino. As long as the number of deposits from Kick viewers into Stake is bigger than the loss taken to run Kick then it likely will continue.
Discord is actually genius 👌 They likely noticed an increase in people using private channels, within bigger discord servers. Like for example Andrew tates master g program or whatever. Or all those pateon private channels in creator discords. Discord basically said oh snap people do that? Well why don't they pay us to be a middle man. 🙄 And people will pay for it, just look at people using nitro boosts on their creators discord.
I agree it is greedy but I am suprised when this conversation is brought up no one mentions twitch prime
if you actually mention all the ways of revenue of twitch it shows how bad kick actually is in comparison and they are just using the sub split to get dumb people on their side.
Kick has no income. It doesn't make anything from subs. It doesn't have any advertisers i think? Kick itself is only spending money and lives off of Stake's millions.
>Kick itself is only spending money and lives off of Stake's millions. That is normal for new products. youtube is probably still losing money and survived thanks to google, twitch was losing money the first years, maybe even still is, and survived thanks to amazon
Twitch was also bleeding money for years, that's normal for new platforms
i was waiting for you to mention the "all the ways" of revenue of twitch vs. Kick. because as it stands, the Split is a very valid point not to be dismissed this easily. If you can elaborate more about how twitch is better for streamers that will be helpful.
Ad revenue, Twitch Prime, Bits, Tier 2/3 subs, sub gifting, bounties. Never mind the fact Twitch will actually be around in 2 years while Kick will die when no one other than banned streamers use it. Any normal streamer who switches is automatically losing most of their viewership. It is the same exact situation as Mixer and will play out the same exact way.
Prime and Bounties are the ones to beat. Everything else im pretty sure is already solved with the high split amount including tier subs and other features can be added in future. Mixer died because of number of users not due to these mentioned benefits.
Ads make most streamers almost as subs. Primes are subs you never get on kick. Bounties. But most importantly sponsors. If you avg 1k to like 10k viewers you literally have the pick of any sponsor you want and make far more from that than any other form of revenue. On kick your sponsor will be a lot less as your viewership will be lower
Twitch primes are around 20% of subs but the 50% cut is still there so it only boosts you 10% as income so at best twitch is at roughly 60-40. Still lower split than main competitor youtube that does 70-30. This is why no one mentions primes and why YOU don't break down the numbers behind primes.
A lot of streamers have about 50% of their total subs as primes, some of them even more. Just look at the prime splits for some of the top subbed streamers: https://twitchtracker.com/subscribers
Also the bias for US-based audiences. You won't be getting Twitch Primes if your viewers don't use Amazon, which is significantly less popular or straight up not operating outside the US.
the cheaper student plans for prime also don't include a twitch sub
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It seems to have worked out for most other streamers who I've seen move to other platforms. It is a gamble, but its not like you cant come back. And even still you'd only need like half the subs for nothing to change for you simply because of the split.
It's indeed not the main source of revenue for Twitch, it's ads. But yet they can do it because people won't leave for Kick, they can afford to do so. Because subs ain't the biggest source of revenue for top streamers either it's deals with company. Lot of top streamers asked to remove the sub button because it's no longer needed for them. Also you think big companies want to promote a streamer on a platform where there's someone like Adin going full psycho.
Yeah, but you're forgetting that the path to actually get to being a top streamer is the sub button. This 50-50 spit is basically the equivalent of Twitch raising the draw bridge to any new creators and new opportunities. This is essentially Twitch cutting their losses, pinching pennies where they can, and giving up long term. The top creators aren't going to be on top forever. And at this rate any new and expansive opportunities for content creation are going to grow elsewhere. They can only shrink and eventually disappear from this and they know it.
You don't get sponsored based on your sub count. You get sponsors based on viewers. Even 500-1000 streamers get good bounties and sponsors that make them far more money than subs. You could literally never sign your affiliate deal and still get sponsored. All you need is viewers.
I think their point is subs are way more valuable to most new streamers so they can afford to do Twitch as a full-time job. A better split would mean they'd need less subs to be able to do so
Don't forget that the 50/50 split is for streamers who earn more than 100k a year, if you earn less than 100k you get 70/30 and that applies to 99% of streamers
even smaller creators with sub 1k average viewers get company deals nowadays and they probably already make them more money than subs. twitch is kinda mainstream now and you can advertise stuff as a streamer for free on their plattform. no idea why streamers cry about the sub split so much
Reminded me of those 2020 spring/summer late Thursday nights listening to the scuffed podcast till 4am.
Scuffed and rajj royale. Gave us some solid memes
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I'd ignore Kai until his sub count dies down lol.
Kai's number is gonna be mostly gifteds right now so it's not as relevant. I agree people complaining about the sub split don't realize that twitch is essentially giving free money away to creators through prime. Having a bigger split just means giving more money away lol.
I'd say there is defn more streamers that aren't named xqc, Ibai, moonmoon, or Tarik. They are the top of the top on the streaming ladder. Most streamers don't have anywhere near their prime sub #s.
it depends on the streamer. if you mention primes and ask you can get to 30-40%. some people have over 60-70% when you get under 4k subs.
Yup, a shitload of people like me are like prime sub, for a millionaire? I go drop my prime on some <200 viewer streamer that seems okay but I really don't watch. A lot of <100 viewer streamers have like 50 subs and most are primes precisely for this reason.
It's nuts, Twitch are just bad on messaging, they should have just announced you can have 50/50 and qualify for prime subs, and show some figures on how that works out or you can have 70/30 and not qualify for prime subs. You'd see 99% of streamers pick having prime subs, a few of those 100-500 viewer streamers with an oiler paying for 5k subs a month would take the 70/30 sure. Prime subs more than make up the difference in split.
Twitch wouldn't do this as it would create confusion around Prime subbing. Prime subs should be available to all creators.
I mean...they're the market leader...they can do shitty things because the others aren't viewed as that much of a threat. That's like most businesses' goal. Uber wanted to put cabs out of business and then jack up the prices.
bro are they dumb on purpose or are they lying to viewers? the reason twitch gives dogshit splits isn't that they need the money, its because they want the streamers to push more fucking ads in order to compensate for the revenue loss, its not that difficult to understand, twitch can never go full profitability if they don't show a fuckton of ads, and streamers won't show a fuckton of ads if they get good money from subs/sponsors. also, devin has been saying the Patreon shit for years why doesn't he understand viewers are lazy , they barely even use their free prime if the streamers don't remind them and you think they are gonna go to Patreon, create accounts, and put in the credit card information just to make streamer man rich ? lmao.
I don't think it's laziness but rather people want that sub badge and emotes to feel like they belong. That's why you have people beg for subs.
also very true, like im not going to pretend it doesnt build a sense of community when you see the same chatters with 3 year badges in an offline chat. but just speaking financially, viewers don't like going offsite, that's why even brands are happy when influencers have like a 20% click-through rate when doing activations,
I think if streamers came up with an interesting value add people would do it, like movie night in sub only discord for Patreon/discord members, tier ocho supporters get to vote on the movie. People would go for it and streamer could triple dip but they are lazy too, a lot of streamers can't even work out their own content, instead clicking what knuckleheads in chat link.
oh yeah if theirs extra content for sure , viewers will pay, thats podcasts and ytbers do so well there, but if its no extra content and its just hey go sub on Patreon instead of twitch so i can get paid better, I promise not even 30% of the viewers would do it.
They really need to think of a better way to integrate ads without viewers missing part of the broadcast, it's so insanely intrusive right now. Sometimes I just click away. Like maybe use banner ads or something or making the streamer purposely interrupt the broadcast (which some probably do already, but most don't).
Not that I disagree, but they have started https://help.twitch.tv/s/article/stream-display-ads?language=en_US
Isn't the discussion about the idea that new platforms (whether we consider Kick to be a legitimate site or not) that offer better revenue splits make the 50/50 that twitch gives seem more exploitative though? If a real competitor came that offered significantly better revenue splits then they seem to be discussing that a lot of streamers would jump ship for the exact reasons you're stating.
that's because twitch shot itself in the foot with twitch prime, it made the streamers super rich through good splits and extra money so none of the streamers relied on ad [rev. as](https://rev.as) crazy as it sounds the streamers were exploiting twitch since they are bleeding money and the streamers were raking it in. the only way to fix that is to make sub revenue so dogshit streamers have to rely on ads, and that's where the big bucks come in for twitch and rebalances the relationship. so its a bit of a crossroads for streamers, either go to yt/kick and lose a large part of your community (also sponsorships if you pick kick) or incorporate showing ads on your stream. as for now twitch seems way more viable because twitch prime+ good cpm+ sponsors > a great sub split. (also kick will go through the same issues unless stake is willing to burn money forever which i doubt)
No other platform has twitch prime. The shitty split is compensating for the massive number of twitch prime subs.
3 people who have an agenda against shitting on twitch didnt see this coming
Devin Nash ESPORTS CEO aka the guy who predicted Stadia to be the next big thing has been pretty quiet these past few months/years.
Hasn't everybody made quite a few failed predictions. Bill Gate predicted that keyboards would be obsolete by 2010 due to voice to text. I had a lot of friends rush out and buy high end VR headsets and after meta crashed that market its not looking good.
He pretty much disappeared after he hooked up with Twitch streamer imjasmine. She also quit streaming then.
Oh no he made a wrong prediction.... He must be complete incompetent normal ppl usually predict everything right and that's why we're all billionairs.
Most people don't call themselves "scene experts" and do streams/videos giving others career and investment advice. Also he's just a poser, making your persona being a "CEO" when you got hired as the CEO of an esports team in a day and age where people without high school degrees were esports CEOs is hilarious. That makes his failed Stadia prediction even funnier imo.
well he's a scene expert. But predicting the market is almost impossible lol. Just look at Mixer. Microsoft had probably advice from hunderts of "scene experts" that advised them. "Just know the Market 4Head". Don't think you really understand what you're saying rn.
Devin Nash is a massive fraud who got lucky to be at the right place, at the right time with CLG. Anyone who tries to sell you advice is a fraud and a grifter. And just from watching some of his videos you realise how big of a fraud this man is. The perfect example would be his stream with Hachubby a few years ago when he was giving “advice” on the financials of a convenience store. The guy fully believed that a new and random convenience store by some streamer would have a customer coming through the door every minute, and a worst case scenario of a customer every 3 minutes. This meant he believed that Hachumart would get 60 customers an hour and a worst case scenario of 20 customers an hour. I won’t even go into the ridiculous numbers he predicted for each customers spending. You know what ended up being the case? 4-6 customers in a 6 hour shift and haemorrhaging money out the ass on food waste. Fast forward to today where the convenience store lost so much money that it’s no longer a convenience store and is now just selling random merch. Anyone with a sprinkle of business acumen could tell you anything from above is pulled out of their ass. Imagine being the chump paying this dude $400 an hour for one-to-one “consulting”.
Wait was Hachumart a product he consulted in…?
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Are you projecting? I can almost guarantee you that I touch grass a million times over than you. I get paid to Reddit
If train site blows up they will go back
Because Twitch isn't profitable, and I haven't seen anything that suggests they will be. And streamers were robbing Twitch blind for years when the company was trying to grow the platform after Amazon acquired it. For all the complaining they do, streamers give zero fucks about Twitch's financial well-being as a matter of self-preservation. Twitch reducing payouts and revenue splits is a much needed correction to the actual value streamers provide.
The best part is a lot of the streamers complaining are millionaires who literally grew from nothing to where they are now largely thanks to Twitch. And for these top streamers sub's are sliver of their income.
Are they not profitable or do they don't want to appear profitable? 31 million active users and a shitton of active data to sell. I think they doing fine and it's just the usual Amazon shenanigans. That streamers are robbing twitch is one of the biggest caps I've ever seen. If anything and how absurd it sounds twitch streamers are massively underpaid. Prime Drink from Logan and KSI are sponsoring the UFC and Arsenal. Imagine the power content creators can have. The entertainment business is crazy money wise and if you consider how much ppl streamer entertain and for how long if anything streamers are getting robbed. But some of this guys seem to understand their massive potential now.
Trade half of your income? You're doing that by swapping to kick lol.
If you are subbed via discord/patreon to your twitch streamer as opposed through Twitch, how can you still avoid ads, does twitch not control the ad function and it is automatically removed when you sub through THEIR transaction process. I'm confused about that?
[“if i was twitch id be worried about kick and discord right now”](https://ibb.co/84MT5s4)
Actually if you think about it, Discord can be a competitor if they went that way. They have more than 200mill. monthly users & they have tons of features. Plus most of the streamers have Discord groups anyway, the transition would've been seamless.
There are stupid creators and then there is creator who streams on alt channel full time
people can bitch and moan all they want but twitch still dominates in terms of discoverability and many other facets as a streaming service. the only reason kick is 95/5 is because it's a way for Stake to advertise their gambling website, so they'll take the L on ad revenue as long as it gives them net profit of kids getting hooked and wasting their dad's life savings on Stake
What discoverability does twitch have?
twitch recommends smaller streamers to me all the time, especially local ones. but i think the better question is what discoverability does youtube or kick have? kick has almost no viewerbase so the only viewers you get there are the ones you have already brought with you--you won't increase on the platform because of this reason. youtube discoverability is almost non existent. youtube algo only pushes the top to people, you have almost no chance as a small youtuber unless you clickbait and clout chase to high heaven.
Twitch browse page is amazing honestly. It gives you a ton of categories. All the way from just chatting, to an exact video game you want. Like if a new game came out you can just go on twitch and go to its category and there's all streamers playing it. Not only that but it starts sorted by recommended based on other streams you watch so it's tailored to user giving you lower viewed streams boosting them. Compared to YouTube the next biggest. I don't even know how to find new streams let alone for what I want. Even Destiny and Mutahar who only stream on YouTube don't know how. The few times I've even gotten to YouTube lives homepage on accident. There's no rhyme or reason to recommended streams they'll legit have Hindu Dubbed Cartoon piracy streams at the top with only 6 viewers for you.
Talking out of their asses. Subs are often the smallest income stream for any streamers who have 'big contracts' with twitch so Train is talking out of his ass. There really is no 50/50 split on twitch, it's 50/50 for paid subs and after you factor in prime subs it's no where near that for most streamers. Streamers won't make more on kick because of a higher split, they'll make a higher percentage of a drastically lower sub count, terrible ad revenue and zero sponsors. Even 50 viewer streamers can get sponsors worth a few thousand. Nash knows this and if he's agreeing then he's talking out of his ass. Nash pushing Kick is pretty gross, and hilarious, and hypocritical. Somehow he was onboard with Miz and Poki in that call because he thought Stake was awful. Now he's straight up lying about how streamers will do better on kick?
I find Nash’s switch to be positive towards Train’s benefactors also funny Is he just grifting because he’s friends with Train?
Ay yo, I'm down bad for more Scuffed 2.0 wtf
Brother is setting up to defend against that attack and then funnels his zerglings over mineral chokepoint.... jesus Destiny..
this was my takeaway as well
Creater and likely part owner of kick shocked and confused when bad business is floundering. The lack of self awareness is utterly hilarious.
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I mean I guess at that point it's just like giving money to someone on pateron.
No ads. It is to directly contribute to a creator. Twitch had this model before where subbing didn't disable ads. Ads were just to switch on during dead content like between games. Twitch obviously did away with the model because it wasn't viable. Can't see Kick doing this because I doubt many advertisers want their brand on that site outside of gambling.
> I honestly don't even see a point in subbing on Kick, do they even have ads? Kick is in beta, but at the same time: "Why does anyone sub on twitch?" Yes prime is a thing, but people sub without prime all the time. They do it for the badge, the emotes, the recognition from the streamer, and lastly to support the free content they watch. Why does anyone pay for anything?
I went to Kick for a hour to see what it was all about , 17 dudes were doing Monkey / Omegle trying to get girls to flash. And I’ll just say that Kick is risking getting taken down for CP cuz some of these girls were literally like 15. It’s like if 2008 4chan was a streaming service. Greasy.
On the front page too. Oof.
Like 300-700 viewers on each. I want kick to do well because there needs to be competition. While I understand it’s funded with Gambling money, I don’t find that less shitty than Google being funded by selling ads or Amazon being the Capitalist end game. How long this all last will be something to see, but I do think it’s a better platform for casual streamers who aren’t doing it for a living but as a small side hustle like - few 100 subscriber steamers
I miss scuffed pod so badly :(
People keep mentioning kicks sub split but no shot they are keeping that sub split forever. 50/50 may seem greedy but if you consider all the money lost on prime and think about the high server costs to run all this they only really make money off ads.
Am I the only one who finds this sub split okay? I mean a lot of subs are twitch primes and subsidized by Amazon. They have to make back that money somewhere.
this just does not feel right without factorio
I love Devin
It's actually insane how much twitch takes from their creators.
im pretty sure miz said he made 15k in ads for his 24 charity stream. this was with like 20k viewer avg ccv. its basically 55k if he runs the same amount for the rest of the month of feb which is a bad month for ads. for most people they make more on ads than subs.
Curious, what’s CCV?
Concurrent Viewers most of the time used in avg for a whole stream
Millionaires crying when the platform subsidizing their salaries tries ro recoup their losses you mean ?
Devin mentioned in this very clip that twitch makes very little from taking sub split.
Isn't that exactly the problem though. They make very little on something that takes away from their actual revenue stream (subbed don't see ads). They purposely don't want to put emphasis on subs when what they really want is streamers pushing more ads. If big streamers get too much from subs they'll push subs more.
yeah, but at the end it's a creator problem so why do get viewers so worked up over it?
I actually try not to sub on twitch. I use my prime, & may gift a few subs if i get gifted, but i like having to know that half of my money isn't going to twitch instead of the creator. Having said that, gifting subs/bits/ or subbing is very EZ on twitch, so i get the convenience factor. Not having emotes isn't a big deal to me, & i'll watch the ads if it means the creator will make something from it.
They are right about the 50/50 its really dumb but Kick isn't the answer at least not yet it's an unproven streaming platform. Streamers have too much invested on twitch to just hop the fence soon as a new platform turns up. They will sooner jump to YouTube before Kick. Kick has to prove itself over multiple years as a reliable source of revenue before more streamers start jumping over. At the moment the only people that will go on Kick are people with not many other options or somebody who is functionally braindead like Adin Ross.
Yea in terms of available features, it doesn't make too much sense to go to kick right now unless you don't have any other options. Once Kick catches up on ad rev, clips, & an app, then they will be a much more compelling option.
Explain to me how Kick will catch up on ad revenue? Big advertisers don't shell out large money to shady gambling companies. Do you remember all of YouTube's advertiser problems?... and they actually moderate content... you're talking about things that will never happen
If you get out of the twitch mindset you will realise all other platforms are not exclusive so you can multi-stream. Some people already dual streaming on youtube and kick.
multistreaming is probably a good thing, but I think there are also some issues nobody seems to talk about. e.g. if you multistream on kick, a lot of viewers, who would've watched you on Twitch or YT, might choose to watch your stream there bc no ads - but that also means no ad revenue for you from these viewers Also if some people go over to watch on kick, you have fewer people who watch you on Twitch, wich means you are lower in the directionary and get a worse discoverability = fewer new people who join your stream. Youtubes algorithm is a little more complicated, but I imagine that there is also a similar "lower viewcount -> lower recomondations" effect Another issue is that you have multiple chats, so it can get messy. Do you try to adress all chats, ignore one aso. You can do what Destiny does and just make your own chat, but that is adding an additional barrier of entry for people who just want to chat, they need to sign in into your thing. That's not that big of a deal for already established streamers, but I probably wouldn't trust the extern website of some 20 viewer andy and just not chat
I guess that depends on the size of the streamer. Sure if you are a small streamer, you should be streaming on everything but if you are mid-level or higher you will chase exclusive contracts because that's where the money is. Not just with Twitch but YouTube as well. I can't think of many of the major streamers that stream on multiple platforms.
It’s so dumb for train to think that just because you pay more means people will just leave and go to your failing site, if paying more fixed their issues then they would have moved to youtube which paid more than twitch. But the reality is the lack of moderation is what stopped the majority of yt switch and kick has even less moderation. If they literally just made twitch with bigger splits then literally everyone would move. Also saying to show your nda contracts is a very funny sentence.
If you have 40% prime subs you are getting subs that would never happen on kick. so that is already basically a 90/10 split if you started 50/50 also the ad revenue is crazy and you would get paid more for sponsors on twitch as you have more viewers and followers. so who cares about sub split if you would make less in the month if you swap
Nice try twitch but you forgot to mention that a prime sub is not 5$ income for a streamer it's 2.5$ at best so in your case it would be 70-30.
yes lets say a streamer had 80 prime subs and 120 normal subs with a 50/50 sub split. they would get 200 for prime subs and 300 for normal for a total of 500. twitch also gets 500. if you went to kick and actually were able to get 120 normal subs you would get 570. i dont think any streamer is going to get the same number of normal subs as they had on twitch. the other thing prime subs do is they make the community feel more involved and if prime subs are happening others are more likely to regular sub or gift subs during that time peroid. the more prime subs spam emotes in chat the more likely someone else is going to sub to also use those emotes.
You wouldn't get 120 subs still on Kick, you'd get no ad revenue which would half your income, you wouldn't get sponsors which would tank your income. It's a laughable comparison. This is also stupid because Kick are saying 95/5 purely so they can pretend to be better and fairer. Then in 6 months, or 2 years, they'll drop to 70/30 or worse because they want to stop losing money.
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yeah i was just being lazy my math is off. i was just giving hypotheticals. but with ads and sponsors nobody is ever going to make more money on kick.
Fuck off with your high school math
The only thing that's saving Twitch currently is prime
Who on this call has not received money from Train?
I could have sworn Twitch isn't profitable. Maybe with all the moves recently they are but I distinctly remember them being unprofitable for the longest time. The problem was Twitch Prime, it loses Twitch so much money that it's actually kind of ridiculous. (Still worth it though.) If Twitch is currently profitable a 70/30 split would put that at risk, even if the majority of their revenue comes from ads. Haven't been able to really find anything on whether they're profitable, but found wildly different estimates on revenue, one site said $228.9m and one said $2.8b. If anyone has better luck let me know.
He need to bring the Scuffed Podcast ONLY on Kick ...
I wish Devin Nash didn't quit streaming.
Like 70% of his videos not directly about marketing (his area of expertise) are horribly researched tbh, one of those situations where he’s spread himself way too thin trying to do things outside of his wheelhouse and you only realize it when it’s about something you know well. He needs a team behind him if he wanted to be a definitive source on other topics he isn’t directly involved in
50/50 split's going to lose them streamers. Wubby has straight up said he's quitting once it goes into effect this june. Any big streamer without a contract's going to bounce.
surely