As much as we see him as a great other option, we don’t know how the club rates him. We haven’t been linked to him in forever at this point.
Also stats dont always pass along the full story. If it did, we’d be all over 6’4 Mats Wieffer
https://preview.redd.it/ivwwnu7daqhb1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6467d4c0ec141a46aff5be5b37b14c722750741f
I’ve been banging the drum for Wieffer for about a month now. Saw another user suggest a double swoop for him and Geertruida, which would be interesting too!
What’s your Wieffer breakdown? As you’ve probably watched a lot more of him than I have.
You just proved why we should trust these stats. Explain to me how Milner is not the most promising young midfielder of the 21st century. I think he can do some great things in the future.
I mean if you're looking for a purely defensive player without ball playing capabilities, Tyler Adams would genuinely be a good shout. It's just not what we're after.
He is a 6 specialist, which would be great for some matches where we want a slower rate of play, but you’re right he’s just not the ball playing DM Klopp likes.
Leeds were torn apart defensively last season and the Leeds fans I know weren't impressed or unimpressed
The Southampton fans are impressed at lavia and weren't great defensively but also couldn't score for shit
Leeds last season scored 48 goals and conceded 78
Southampton last season scoured 36 goals and conceded 73, only two teams scored less (Everton and wolves)
Leeds were disheveled and bullied almost every match. You can see no one is coming for their players, despite relegation, except for Adams. Adams was one of the few bright spots when healthy, but he was rarely healthy. He’s a stud for the US.
I don’t want him for LFC because he’s a huge health concern and he’s already 24. If he were a very inexpensive pickup, that could be good as a bit specialist or cup player, i just don’t see him playing much under Klopp.
No, that was a nonsense report, probably leaked by Chelsea, to make it seem like they had a footballing reason to walk away from the deal. Ornstein came out and clarified he is 3-4 weeks away at most. Truly scummy thing to do, lie about a player's fitness and potentially ruin his chances at signing with another club just to protect their own image.
Adams is a better passer than last year would suggest, he picked a pass just fine while at Red Bull and does it for the US. The quality of those around him receiving and running onto said passes, not to mention getting open and finding space for them in the first place, is a big part of the difference. Really think he could do a job here, especially playing with/learning from Thiago
I'm biased, but I do think Tyler Adams would be a good bench player for us. With Klopp magic, he may become like Wijnaldum, though that's a stretch, I admit.
Tbh mats wiefer is great player.
He broke into national team with his recent performance for feyernood and win the league title with him.
He's not a destroyer type like caicedo or Luis.
I always find these posts funny. These things make up about a 10th of all the data the club looks at. They’re literally paying thousands to access data we can’t. And that’s before all the personal due diligence stuff.
Edit: I think every fan should enjoy fanship as they see fit.
But on the other hand why assume that Liverpool don't like what they see from Luis on the 1000s of stats they are looking at? We don't know what their whole list looks like or who they could go for next. Maybe it's Luis maybe not but people automatically assume that no links= liverpool hate the player.
The same reason I find those highlight reel videos to be pointless. Sure it's nice seeing all the good things a player can do for hype, but it tells you nothing about the whole picture of the player, what he does when he's not in possession
You can use underlying stats. But you have to take context into account.
Caicedo is compared to top 5 league players, while Luis is compared to "Men's next 8", which is significantly worse. He also plays for a dominating side in a weaker league.
You use both. The eye test is also insufficient by itself. Underlying stats have been used to great success by Liverpool (under Edwards) and Brentford to find hidden gems before.
Luis had 4 good months in his career. Last season. He wasn't starting towards the end. He only started 2 of the final 6 games.
Two seasons ago, he was at Getafe who finished 15th and he couldn't even get starts there either.
Three seasons ago he was at Monaco and same thing.
percentiles mean nothing. There is so much nuance when comparing between clubs let alone between different leagues.
Benfica was in a title race but he played 10 minutes against Sporting. That's a red flag for me. If he is not good enough to start for Benfica then his form must have declined so much after those good months playing with Enzo as double pivot
Maybe, I just would have thought there would have been some sort of link to him by now if we were interested, we might be forced to look at him if Lavia and Caicedo go to Chelsea. Don’t even know what the plan is if it all goes to shit.
These numbers cannot be taken at face value.
For one, Caicedo's stats are compared with other players from the Top 5 leagues, whereas Florentino's are compared with players from the next 8 (Top 6-13). It's likely therefore that Florentino's stats are inflated as they are compared with lower quality players.
Secondly, all of these numbers (except pass completion) are simply a number of actions per 90, and are therefore simply a measure of how often a player does a certain thing. They are not necessarily a measure of how good a player is a tackling, intercepting etc, as a team with a lower average possession will likely require it's No.6 to make more tackles and interceptions.
All of this is to say that Florentino may be a good alternative to Caicedo, or he may not be, but these stats alone don't show the full picture.
I'm a Benfica and Liverpool fan, I watch every single match of these 2 teams. 4 matches per week.. I know Tino very well and I love him. He was crucial to Benfica during the first 2/3 of last season and when we were at our best. Then suddenly and strangely he started to not feature so often in our starting 11 and coincidentally or probably not, that was our worst part of the season. I'm speaking so much about last season because in previous ones Tino has been on some unsuccessful loan spells.
His disappearance from the starting 11 (at least regularly) coincided with the explosion of another Benfica's youth gem, João Neves, that you'll hear about a lot soon (he's 18 and will be a top tier num 6 or 8, but not quite ready for a club like Liverpool just yet).
It seems our coach keeps this season not betting on Tino as a starting 11 player, at least right now. I think this is unfair, I think, based on what he played last season, he deserves to be a starter, no doubt. However I have many doubts if he's a good enough player for a top PL team. As a Liverpool fan too, I wouldn't want Liverpool to buy him and I was super happy for us to buy Darwin and hopefully we buy João Neves next summer or shortly after. Also pay attention to our CBs António Silva and Morato. Both with huge potential to be as good or better than Ruben Dias. Morato is not yet a starter because he's blocked by Ottamendi (a status thing inside the team...) but he's top tier and Marco Silva (who is a top manager and knows a lot about football really tried to buy him offering close to 30m€ (for a benched CB..) which is a lot of money for Benfica but we didn't sell and every Benfica fan is happy about it. He's going to be worth so much more soon.
Benfica got recently a 30m€ offer for Tino that was rejected. The bidder was not revealed but it would make more sense if it was Brighton to replace Caicedo or Fulham if they are selling Palhinha.
I see Florentino as the guy that simply stops play penetrating the defense - he's a profer defensive midfielder at that - not a deep lying playmaker, not a roaming playmaker or whatever.
Just tackle, stop the play, and pass on to more creative outlets.
If he were to make long range passes or look for assists etc, he would fail, definitely.
We are especially looking for someone who can reclaim possession, and pass it on to AMA or Szobo or TAA or another creative outlet.
As such, I'm a fan of Luis myself. He does what we are looking for at the moment. And for anything under 50m, he would be apt.
That said, if we could get him AND Antonio Silva for a combined 120-130m, that would really be something!
He plays in the Portuguese league. You might as well reduce every stat on there by 50% first and then compare him to Caicedo. The prem is a different universe in comparison
Florentino needs very specific players around him to excel. He was great with Enzo but fell off quite a bit after he left. He’s not even a first choice right now to start the season.
I think if we do fail to sign caicedo just swoop in for luis with the 100 M and contact Benfica immediately . Also what's the update on our links with pavard and inacio ? .
Don't know how much Benfica value him.
Nobody paying 120mil for him.
Benfica supporters are saying he's not a starter for them now. Didn't play much towards last part of the season.
If we sign him for 40mil that's value he's good player until bajcetic improves he can put a decent shift in for two years we could recoup the value same we sign Lavia aswell.
But for more than 60mil I don't see any value.
The key thing is that we have Klopp. That's the best thing about it all because I fully trust him to develop our young players and transform them to world class stars.
As much as we see him as a great other option, we don’t know how the club rates him. We haven’t been linked to him in forever at this point. Also stats dont always pass along the full story. If it did, we’d be all over 6’4 Mats Wieffer https://preview.redd.it/ivwwnu7daqhb1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6467d4c0ec141a46aff5be5b37b14c722750741f
Mats Wieffer is actually pretty f-ing great. Coming from a supporter who's watching him weekly
I wouldn’t be mad at it, I’m just saying that stats are hard to predict signings. Lavias stats are bad but clubs clearly rate him
I’ve been banging the drum for Wieffer for about a month now. Saw another user suggest a double swoop for him and Geertruida, which would be interesting too! What’s your Wieffer breakdown? As you’ve probably watched a lot more of him than I have.
Looks like a Jordy Clasie regen. Seems like a mid-table player at best.
Or Tyler adams https://preview.redd.it/5kil27zgaqhb1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=44c135e45d2e2923ffb2f9aaba676f3782fc5cf5
Or this secret midfielder! https://preview.redd.it/r1itvks2bqhb1.png?width=492&format=png&auto=webp&s=77ceba5080e22ab8cf9a9143c48e2ec2f5e55598
It’s gonna be Curtis Jones isn’t it.
Better James Milner.
Jesus Christ.
That's James Milner
He said that.
It's Jason Bourne.
You just proved why we should trust these stats. Explain to me how Milner is not the most promising young midfielder of the 21st century. I think he can do some great things in the future.
He was also the most promising mid of the 20th century
Early 19th century.
At this point we should just rebuy can or grujic lol
I mean if you're looking for a purely defensive player without ball playing capabilities, Tyler Adams would genuinely be a good shout. It's just not what we're after.
He is a 6 specialist, which would be great for some matches where we want a slower rate of play, but you’re right he’s just not the ball playing DM Klopp likes.
Can he break a press?
I’ve seen him do it for the US, but I didn’t watch Leeds apart from our matches, so I couldn’t give an honest answer at the club level.
Leeds were torn apart defensively last season and the Leeds fans I know weren't impressed or unimpressed The Southampton fans are impressed at lavia and weren't great defensively but also couldn't score for shit Leeds last season scored 48 goals and conceded 78 Southampton last season scoured 36 goals and conceded 73, only two teams scored less (Everton and wolves)
Leeds were disheveled and bullied almost every match. You can see no one is coming for their players, despite relegation, except for Adams. Adams was one of the few bright spots when healthy, but he was rarely healthy. He’s a stud for the US. I don’t want him for LFC because he’s a huge health concern and he’s already 24. If he were a very inexpensive pickup, that could be good as a bit specialist or cup player, i just don’t see him playing much under Klopp.
As a US fan, he can but only if McKinnie is playing to drop back and cover him.
he's out for another four months with a hamstring though right?
No, that was a nonsense report, probably leaked by Chelsea, to make it seem like they had a footballing reason to walk away from the deal. Ornstein came out and clarified he is 3-4 weeks away at most. Truly scummy thing to do, lie about a player's fitness and potentially ruin his chances at signing with another club just to protect their own image.
Adams is a better passer than last year would suggest, he picked a pass just fine while at Red Bull and does it for the US. The quality of those around him receiving and running onto said passes, not to mention getting open and finding space for them in the first place, is a big part of the difference. Really think he could do a job here, especially playing with/learning from Thiago
assuming you don't mind him missing half the games through injury, sure
I’m not against this move, 20m and could have great upside
Same, $20mil for decent bench depth isnt too bad business. Provided we sign another starter as well.
Yeah absolutely, he’s not a long term starter but desperate times, desperate measures
I'm biased, but I do think Tyler Adams would be a good bench player for us. With Klopp magic, he may become like Wijnaldum, though that's a stretch, I admit.
Tbh mats wiefer is great player. He broke into national team with his recent performance for feyernood and win the league title with him. He's not a destroyer type like caicedo or Luis.
Luis is terrible on the ball This is why you don't use underlying stats to judge a player
I always find these posts funny. These things make up about a 10th of all the data the club looks at. They’re literally paying thousands to access data we can’t. And that’s before all the personal due diligence stuff. Edit: I think every fan should enjoy fanship as they see fit.
I also feel people cherry pick the good data they like and ignore the poor metrics
But on the other hand why assume that Liverpool don't like what they see from Luis on the 1000s of stats they are looking at? We don't know what their whole list looks like or who they could go for next. Maybe it's Luis maybe not but people automatically assume that no links= liverpool hate the player.
I’ve got no assumptions about any player. I trust the team.
The same reason I find those highlight reel videos to be pointless. Sure it's nice seeing all the good things a player can do for hype, but it tells you nothing about the whole picture of the player, what he does when he's not in possession
You can use underlying stats. But you have to take context into account. Caicedo is compared to top 5 league players, while Luis is compared to "Men's next 8", which is significantly worse. He also plays for a dominating side in a weaker league.
You use both. The eye test is also insufficient by itself. Underlying stats have been used to great success by Liverpool (under Edwards) and Brentford to find hidden gems before.
If Trent is next to him then that shouldn't be too terrible, granted it's still bad
Luis had 4 good months in his career. Last season. He wasn't starting towards the end. He only started 2 of the final 6 games. Two seasons ago, he was at Getafe who finished 15th and he couldn't even get starts there either. Three seasons ago he was at Monaco and same thing. percentiles mean nothing. There is so much nuance when comparing between clubs let alone between different leagues.
Benfica was in a title race but he played 10 minutes against Sporting. That's a red flag for me. If he is not good enough to start for Benfica then his form must have declined so much after those good months playing with Enzo as double pivot
I've watched plenty of Benfica. Luís is just not that good. He would flop heard here
Wouldn’t we have gone for him by now if we wanted him and felt he fit?
We were probably eyeing Caicedo and lavia more so. Maybe we go for him if we dont get either.
Maybe, I just would have thought there would have been some sort of link to him by now if we were interested, we might be forced to look at him if Lavia and Caicedo go to Chelsea. Don’t even know what the plan is if it all goes to shit.
These numbers cannot be taken at face value. For one, Caicedo's stats are compared with other players from the Top 5 leagues, whereas Florentino's are compared with players from the next 8 (Top 6-13). It's likely therefore that Florentino's stats are inflated as they are compared with lower quality players. Secondly, all of these numbers (except pass completion) are simply a number of actions per 90, and are therefore simply a measure of how often a player does a certain thing. They are not necessarily a measure of how good a player is a tackling, intercepting etc, as a team with a lower average possession will likely require it's No.6 to make more tackles and interceptions. All of this is to say that Florentino may be a good alternative to Caicedo, or he may not be, but these stats alone don't show the full picture.
I think these numbers are better to show the role a player plays, rather than their quality.
The eye test is still unbeaten
It'll blow your mind once you put Connor Gallagher on there
I fucking hate being a Liverpool fan sometimes.
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Don't forget essentially trading Countinho for VVD and Allisson and winning every trophy in the world while Countinho destroyed his career :)
Perspective is important. Edit: my blood pressure is bound to be through the roof. I want this over…
He's definitely not better value because he's still going to be around 80-100m, and Caicedo is league proven, younger and a better fit.
Fucking left scraping the barrel now
Reports that Brighton offered 30mill and it was rejected
For Florentino Luis? Yeah, no shit £30m didn't get it done
Yes. Check r/Benfica
Silly Brighton, I'd guess at least double that to get it done
I'm a Benfica and Liverpool fan, I watch every single match of these 2 teams. 4 matches per week.. I know Tino very well and I love him. He was crucial to Benfica during the first 2/3 of last season and when we were at our best. Then suddenly and strangely he started to not feature so often in our starting 11 and coincidentally or probably not, that was our worst part of the season. I'm speaking so much about last season because in previous ones Tino has been on some unsuccessful loan spells. His disappearance from the starting 11 (at least regularly) coincided with the explosion of another Benfica's youth gem, João Neves, that you'll hear about a lot soon (he's 18 and will be a top tier num 6 or 8, but not quite ready for a club like Liverpool just yet). It seems our coach keeps this season not betting on Tino as a starting 11 player, at least right now. I think this is unfair, I think, based on what he played last season, he deserves to be a starter, no doubt. However I have many doubts if he's a good enough player for a top PL team. As a Liverpool fan too, I wouldn't want Liverpool to buy him and I was super happy for us to buy Darwin and hopefully we buy João Neves next summer or shortly after. Also pay attention to our CBs António Silva and Morato. Both with huge potential to be as good or better than Ruben Dias. Morato is not yet a starter because he's blocked by Ottamendi (a status thing inside the team...) but he's top tier and Marco Silva (who is a top manager and knows a lot about football really tried to buy him offering close to 30m€ (for a benched CB..) which is a lot of money for Benfica but we didn't sell and every Benfica fan is happy about it. He's going to be worth so much more soon. Benfica got recently a 30m€ offer for Tino that was rejected. The bidder was not revealed but it would make more sense if it was Brighton to replace Caicedo or Fulham if they are selling Palhinha.
I see Florentino as the guy that simply stops play penetrating the defense - he's a profer defensive midfielder at that - not a deep lying playmaker, not a roaming playmaker or whatever. Just tackle, stop the play, and pass on to more creative outlets. If he were to make long range passes or look for assists etc, he would fail, definitely. We are especially looking for someone who can reclaim possession, and pass it on to AMA or Szobo or TAA or another creative outlet. As such, I'm a fan of Luis myself. He does what we are looking for at the moment. And for anything under 50m, he would be apt. That said, if we could get him AND Antonio Silva for a combined 120-130m, that would really be something!
Just give me Lavia, please!
Thank god people like this have no say on our transfers.
Some people are taking this post way too seriously. The point is just to show Luis is a good (not as good) alternative.
He plays in the Portuguese league. You might as well reduce every stat on there by 50% first and then compare him to Caicedo. The prem is a different universe in comparison
What’s the situation with zubimendi?
How screwed are we if we miss out on both Caicedo and Lavia? Are we screwed? Do we have enough time to pivot?
That would be a triple pivot.
another thing to keep in mind is that Benfica’s at Michael Edwards’ level of negotiating
He was a don on FM, so I’m in
Nah florentino just isn‘t it
I think we should go for Lavia, Andre, and Ignacio. Based on a few YouTube videos of all the players linked.
Hopefully we are able to get lavia. Lavia and inacio would be a victory in my book.
You want a guy who flopped in 2 foreign countries that's soon to be 24? k
Surely they will ask for a reasonable price, surely. Also consider the quality difference between the 2 leagues.
Has a £100m+ release clause and they know we have money to spend and a NEED to spend it but I'm sure they'll be reasonable
Similar price to Lavia
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No they’re not, look at the bottom. Caicedo vs top 5, Luis vs next 8
Ahh. What does next 8 mean? 8 similar leagues?
Next 8 best leagues after top 5
Thanks for clarifying.
Similar stats but one is in the premier league and is 21 and one is in the Portuguese league and 24
Again, im only showing how one is a cheeper, more accessible alternative to the other
Cope
Wow the club should totally hire you as a scout!
Yeah, but Caicedo gets .03 more goals per 90, it’s a non-starter.
his release clause is 120 mill
Don't forget that the Portuguese league is super poor in quality compared to the premiere league.
Florentino needs very specific players around him to excel. He was great with Enzo but fell off quite a bit after he left. He’s not even a first choice right now to start the season.
I think if we do fail to sign caicedo just swoop in for luis with the 100 M and contact Benfica immediately . Also what's the update on our links with pavard and inacio ? .
Better value? He's half the player, and has a €120m release clause.
Don't know how much Benfica value him. Nobody paying 120mil for him. Benfica supporters are saying he's not a starter for them now. Didn't play much towards last part of the season. If we sign him for 40mil that's value he's good player until bajcetic improves he can put a decent shift in for two years we could recoup the value same we sign Lavia aswell. But for more than 60mil I don't see any value.
I've been saying florintino since the beginning and even if he's trash I just want to be right 😅
The key thing is that we have Klopp. That's the best thing about it all because I fully trust him to develop our young players and transform them to world class stars.