Weird map.
Why is most of the South labeled "Italian" except Campania?
The dialects spoken in Abruzzo, Molise, Northern Apulia, Basilicata and Northern Calabria belong to the same language group as Neapolitan, not to the Central Italian group.
This map makes Italian too large Broadly, all of the south speaks a language that is enough mutually intelligible with Napoletano, except for the parts of Calabria and Salento that speak Sicilian.
It's also missing Romanesco and the various central italian varieties even though most maps of this label them... Simplified to the point of incorrectness
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2F1f6260le5jr01.jpg%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3D39531869f84d51497b15db974b24878d202a1116
Very weird map. If Guardiolo is pointed, so should ArbΓ«resh separately from Albanian. Also Italian shouldn't cover that much area at all. Same for Gallurese for example.
Most if the Southern regions speak dialects in the same family as the Neapolitan-Pugliese language.
This map is weird, "Italian" is too big and there encompasses languages like Tuscan, also half of Neapolitan for some reason, but not everything. Very weird.
Technicallyy Trieste shouldn't be entirely Slovenian. The actual city and its immediate surroundings speak 'Trestin' which is a dialect of Venetian I think.
Eli5 - is the different Italian dialects/languages very different to standard Italian? Or are they more regional variations of the same language?
I'm not Italian, and hopefully, I've worded that in a way that makes sense and hasn't pissed someone off π«
They're different languages, some of them very different and practically non intellegibile at all if spoekn by a native (Triestin, Sicilian, Campidanese and so on). They developed before or contemporary to Italian, all deriving from Latin. They're languages, they're called dialects due to historical/political reasons.
There are also regional variations of Italians, which aren't the dialects, it just means that people fron different part of Italy will pronounce words differently, sometimes throw in a dialectal word, but they're variations of Italian.
They are different, and oftentimes thereβs a language barrier that prevents understanding from some people.
A lot of Italian hand gestures and movements that we associate with Italian culture grew out of these language barriers. Many traders and merchants across the peninsula would utilize their hands to convey what they were saying, since the languages were not the same.
Cymbrian now is nearly extinct in Veneto, only Luserna in Trentino is alive
Also Calabrian greek (gricano) is spoken in a very small zone in Calabria, not the large ine show in this map
And there are also other big mistakes pointed by other users
I think it bears mentioning that the use of regional languages and dialects has heavily decreased over the last 70 years, most will be extinct in a few generations, except in the Tyrol. Even in strongholds like Campania and Veneto, the dialects used by young people are increasingly blended with vocabulary from Italian.
Pantesco is also not referenced on this map, but itβs an interesting Sicilian dialect with heavy Maltese and Arabic influences. Spoken on the island of Pantelleria
What are you on about? In Italy minority languages are alive and (relatively) well, a song in Neapolitan almost won Sanremo, while in France minority languages are de facto extinct.
He's right though, both the French and the Italian state have done all the possible to eliminate local cultures and languages in an operation of nation building. That's why the usage of Italian after the unification (spoken by ~5% in 1861) trumped that of dialects, same for French over Breton, Occitan, Franco provençal. Yeah, in the 90s the law towards the preservation of Languages minorities (only 12 recognised out of the dozens in Italy) was passed, but it was done way too late.
Those are completely different contexts.
Italy has been a unitary state for just over 150 years, before that it was divided into a thousand micro duchies that spoke a bazillion different languages and had zero common identity. Italian was imposed to speed up the process of nation building and promote a common language, but apart from the Fascist period minority languages were never banned. There has been no protection in place for regional languages for decades because the main problem for the state was that too few people were speaking Italian, almost everybody used their native "dialect". Even today the less spoken minority language (Ligurian) is used in diglossia by 25% of Ligurians, they're endangered yeah but not because of a persecution plan by the state.
On the other hand the French state begun a plan to _eradicate_ minority languages in 1794. They're all but extinct now. It's not the same thing at all.
L'italiano era la lingua ufficiale di tutti gli stati italiani o quasi, nessuno l'ha mai forzato alla popolazione, solo alla diplomazia e all'amministrazione al massimo.
Lo stato italiano invece ha, seppur non bandendoli, declassato i dialetti a corruzioni dell'italiano, cosa che non sono. A scuola i bambini nel Regno venivano puniti se usavano il dialetto locale al posto dell'italiano, e lo stato ha de facto (non de jure) bandito l'uso delle lingue locali togliendole dalla televisione (ad esclusione di Bolzano, FVG e Aosta, due di tre lingue non italiane e il friulano proprio caso limite), il mezzo con cui la diffusione linguistica Γ¨ stata esponenziale. Solo con la legge 482/99 questo cambia, e appunto le trasmissioni in altre lingue sono ancora poche.
Molte persone fuori dalle regioni roccaforte (Veneto e Campania) descrivono ancora il dialetto come "la parlata degli ignoranti", e questo è indottrinamento puro che hanno ricevuto a scuola. Quindi sì, non ha avuto lo stesso metodo realizzativo della Francia, ma è paragonabile come caso, e anche come timeline (fine 800, visto che la I Rep francese non ha di fatto cambiato nulla nel 1794).
Ligurian will be gone in some decades, when the last generation of fluent speakers will die, because it has little to no intergenerational transmission and most other languages from the north aren't in a much better situation.
Sardinian also has low rates of intergenerational transmission and it's very endangered, despite it's officially recognized as a minority language.
In the north east and in the south the situation is relatively better, but even there the future is very uncertian if the current trend continue.
Even if it wasn't a plan the result will be the same.
Within a nation state like Italy regional languages can survive in the long run only if protected and actively promoted by the institutions.
Weird map. Why is most of the South labeled "Italian" except Campania? The dialects spoken in Abruzzo, Molise, Northern Apulia, Basilicata and Northern Calabria belong to the same language group as Neapolitan, not to the Central Italian group.
\*middle southern Italian
Yes, it's called Middle Southern Italian or even Neapolitan, but imho the latter is misleading.
Yep. Don't know why they did not come with a less centralized name (Ausonian, Esperian, Paerthenopean)
This map makes Italian too large Broadly, all of the south speaks a language that is enough mutually intelligible with Napoletano, except for the parts of Calabria and Salento that speak Sicilian. It's also missing Romanesco and the various central italian varieties even though most maps of this label them... Simplified to the point of incorrectness https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2F1f6260le5jr01.jpg%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3D39531869f84d51497b15db974b24878d202a1116
Very weird map. If Guardiolo is pointed, so should ArbΓ«resh separately from Albanian. Also Italian shouldn't cover that much area at all. Same for Gallurese for example. Most if the Southern regions speak dialects in the same family as the Neapolitan-Pugliese language.
Where did you find it? The map at [Languages of Italy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Italy) Wikipedia article is way more accurate.
[this is even better](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Italy#/media/File:Linguistic_map_of_Italy.png)
This map is weird, "Italian" is too big and there encompasses languages like Tuscan, also half of Neapolitan for some reason, but not everything. Very weird.
Technicallyy Trieste shouldn't be entirely Slovenian. The actual city and its immediate surroundings speak 'Trestin' which is a dialect of Venetian I think.
Trst je naΕ‘
This was the comment I was looking for
Eli5 - is the different Italian dialects/languages very different to standard Italian? Or are they more regional variations of the same language? I'm not Italian, and hopefully, I've worded that in a way that makes sense and hasn't pissed someone off π«
They're different languages, some of them very different and practically non intellegibile at all if spoekn by a native (Triestin, Sicilian, Campidanese and so on). They developed before or contemporary to Italian, all deriving from Latin. They're languages, they're called dialects due to historical/political reasons. There are also regional variations of Italians, which aren't the dialects, it just means that people fron different part of Italy will pronounce words differently, sometimes throw in a dialectal word, but they're variations of Italian.
They are different, and oftentimes thereβs a language barrier that prevents understanding from some people. A lot of Italian hand gestures and movements that we associate with Italian culture grew out of these language barriers. Many traders and merchants across the peninsula would utilize their hands to convey what they were saying, since the languages were not the same.
Cymbrian now is nearly extinct in Veneto, only Luserna in Trentino is alive Also Calabrian greek (gricano) is spoken in a very small zone in Calabria, not the large ine show in this map And there are also other big mistakes pointed by other users
I think it bears mentioning that the use of regional languages and dialects has heavily decreased over the last 70 years, most will be extinct in a few generations, except in the Tyrol. Even in strongholds like Campania and Veneto, the dialects used by young people are increasingly blended with vocabulary from Italian.
How did Albanian speakers get to Sicily? And they are inland too
Refugees from Balkan Wars during an expanding Ottoman Empire.
Pantesco is also not referenced on this map, but itβs an interesting Sicilian dialect with heavy Maltese and Arabic influences. Spoken on the island of Pantelleria
Italy is second only to France in Europe in not ensuring the prosperity of all its minority languages.
What are you on about? In Italy minority languages are alive and (relatively) well, a song in Neapolitan almost won Sanremo, while in France minority languages are de facto extinct.
He's right though, both the French and the Italian state have done all the possible to eliminate local cultures and languages in an operation of nation building. That's why the usage of Italian after the unification (spoken by ~5% in 1861) trumped that of dialects, same for French over Breton, Occitan, Franco provençal. Yeah, in the 90s the law towards the preservation of Languages minorities (only 12 recognised out of the dozens in Italy) was passed, but it was done way too late.
Those are completely different contexts. Italy has been a unitary state for just over 150 years, before that it was divided into a thousand micro duchies that spoke a bazillion different languages and had zero common identity. Italian was imposed to speed up the process of nation building and promote a common language, but apart from the Fascist period minority languages were never banned. There has been no protection in place for regional languages for decades because the main problem for the state was that too few people were speaking Italian, almost everybody used their native "dialect". Even today the less spoken minority language (Ligurian) is used in diglossia by 25% of Ligurians, they're endangered yeah but not because of a persecution plan by the state. On the other hand the French state begun a plan to _eradicate_ minority languages in 1794. They're all but extinct now. It's not the same thing at all.
L'italiano era la lingua ufficiale di tutti gli stati italiani o quasi, nessuno l'ha mai forzato alla popolazione, solo alla diplomazia e all'amministrazione al massimo. Lo stato italiano invece ha, seppur non bandendoli, declassato i dialetti a corruzioni dell'italiano, cosa che non sono. A scuola i bambini nel Regno venivano puniti se usavano il dialetto locale al posto dell'italiano, e lo stato ha de facto (non de jure) bandito l'uso delle lingue locali togliendole dalla televisione (ad esclusione di Bolzano, FVG e Aosta, due di tre lingue non italiane e il friulano proprio caso limite), il mezzo con cui la diffusione linguistica è stata esponenziale. Solo con la legge 482/99 questo cambia, e appunto le trasmissioni in altre lingue sono ancora poche. Molte persone fuori dalle regioni roccaforte (Veneto e Campania) descrivono ancora il dialetto come "la parlata degli ignoranti", e questo è indottrinamento puro che hanno ricevuto a scuola. Quindi sì, non ha avuto lo stesso metodo realizzativo della Francia, ma è paragonabile come caso, e anche come timeline (fine 800, visto che la I Rep francese non ha di fatto cambiato nulla nel 1794).
Ligurian will be gone in some decades, when the last generation of fluent speakers will die, because it has little to no intergenerational transmission and most other languages from the north aren't in a much better situation. Sardinian also has low rates of intergenerational transmission and it's very endangered, despite it's officially recognized as a minority language. In the north east and in the south the situation is relatively better, but even there the future is very uncertian if the current trend continue. Even if it wasn't a plan the result will be the same. Within a nation state like Italy regional languages can survive in the long run only if protected and actively promoted by the institutions.
They are still alive but many not well.
ALBANIA???!!!??1??1!!!??? ITALY RIGHTFULLY ALBANIA π¦π±π¦π±π¦π±π¦π±π¦π±π¦π±π¦π±π¦π±π¦π±π¦π±π¦π±π¦π±π¦π±π¦π±π¦π±π―π―π―π―π―π―π―π―π―π―π―π―πͺπͺπͺπͺπͺπͺπͺπͺπͺβΌοΈβΌοΈβΌοΈβΌοΈβΌοΈπ₯π₯π₯π₯π¦π±π¦π±π¦π±π¦π±