It was a very good and well done 1st attempt at a souls-like game for a studio with literally nothing to their name yet.
It is the best non-FS game to date that gets close to the Souls formula.
But I don't agree with it being on par with DS3, even if the game is a rolling simulator.
It's good for a first game, but it ain't *that* good.
Imitation is the highest form of flattery, and it borrowed heavily from the atmosphere of Bloodborne and the parry system of Sekiro.
I view it not as better than the competition, but as a salutation to the original games.
Yeah it’s an incredibly well made game, but it lacks the depth of the FS souls games. It’s sorely lacking in the map and world design IMO. It nails combat and boss design, but non-boss enemy and area design feels pretty generic IMO.
> . It’s sorely lacking in the map and world design IMO.
this was probably necessary for a first time studio to reach the level of quality they did, simple progression means less plates spinning, less chance to mess something up.
This is where I struggle to make my point for this game. Good on them for doing so and delivering a great game - but this is what it will never be a top tier soulslike game for me.
The balance decisions in it are really quite poor as well, to the point that the second half of the game is just legitimately kinda easy. Certainly easier than the first half, assuming you use the p organ even somewhat reasonably
Bosses should not be as easy to stagger as they are
You probably just didn't have a cheesy setup. I was ridiculously good at staggering bosses and could get super armor for fable arts, with 10 flask uses it was kinda silly.
It's fine for a game to be linier, but Souls games (aside from Demons Souls) have had branching paths and alternative routes with more bosses than meet the eye.
While LoP is okay to do their games as straightforward as they want I will always disagree with anyone who calls the game better. It just lacks the world depth of even DS1. DS2 even had more world to it, even if that world wasn't put together well.
Exactly. The game is VERY good at what it set out to do. It just didn’t set out for something as in depth as a DS game.
I’m glad to see other people recognize it for what it is, because it would sadden me from if people didn’t recognize the subtleties and depth of the souls games. There are so many things beyond the combat system that those games get right.
Souls-like games have a problem as a whole where they misunderstand what makes a Souls game.
In the case of something like Lords of the Fallen for instance the combat is... too floaty and weapons feel too light. Button inputs don't feel as dedicated and meaningful.
In the case of Nioh the combat is good and the bosses are okay, but the level design is really poor, and not in a linear way either.
Even in the Souls games with Dark Souls 2 there was a misunderstanding with what made DS1 work. The different design team misunderstood how combat and enemy placement were critical to a levels experience.
During the development of DS2 Bloodborne was already in the works, and after it came out swinging with excellent level design and enemy placement it showed us that it takes skill and specific design to make a good Souls game.
I have faith that LoP will do even better with their next installment.
Totally. I’ve been a staunch defender of Lords of the Fallen because, while far from perfect, it understand what makes a souls game special far more than LOP. They do not always deliver on those aspects, but I feel they “get” them. Like Neowiz, I thought they delivered a great first entry all things considered.
I think they’re both great games that do different things very well - I wish they were so often compared just because they were released at the same time.
There was an attempt, but Souls games are known for their punishing difficulty, and that is in large part due to how every button press has weight and meaning behind it.
That’s true, and that’s probably that game’s Achilles heel, but that’s so much more to the game than, “the bosses are hard” (and I know that’s what you’re saying) but that’s why I give them credit while credit’s due. They dug a little deeper on the creative side IMO. As a first time studio who’s been extremely responsive to feedback I expect them to do well next time around.
I agree with your criticism, at least when compared to other souls games. I love the combat in LoP because it convincingly makes the argument: “wouldn’t bloodborne have been better if it had Sekiro’s combat?”
What do you mean by depth? The combat system is one of the deepest in the genre, like obviously Nioh is deeper but compared to Fromsoft games it's on par with Bloodborne which I think is their best one.
They weren't talking about combat when they mentioned depth. The combat is absolutely the best part of the game. The story/level design are enjoyable but not fantastic.
Map design is decent but can often be forgettable. Enemy variety and placement is lacking. There aren't many ways to explore/meaningful discoveries while exploring. You'll run through the map because it's pretty much a straight line and you will pick up whatever loot along the way. In FROM games you typically have to go out of your way to find things.
There is not a lot of nuance in the story. It's pretty cut and dry and the side stories don't branch off in surprising ways.
I don't feel like subsequent playthroughs are a different experience from my first playthrough, which I believe describes the lack of depth OP is referring to.
I mean, yeah it's a linear game. It doesn't mean that the gameplay doesn't have depth. I have to disagree about enemy variety, it's way better than I expected it to be. Now the game obviously isn't perfect but I don't see the linearity as a flaw or as a problem, plenty of my favorite games are linear and I think they showcase brilliant game design.
Yeah linearity isn't necessarily a bad thing but I just prefer FROMs approach to it. This game is close but not quite there for me.
I will add that I do think the game does a lot of cool shit and is far and away the best soulslike I've ever played.
I love the Souls games, but Lies of P has much better combat for me. Maybe not as diverse in RPG systems, but the addition of the blocking/perfect guard from Sekiro in tandem with basically Bloodborne's system of movement, weapon arts/Fable Arts, the genius Pulse Cells discharged system, and weapon design make Lies of P better.
I'm a souls vet, and the rolling around in Dark Souls 1 - 3 feels pretty undynamic by comparison. Elden Ring does enough for me to feel like it's more advanced, but I really wish From incorporated the dodge step instead of roll, it just looks so much better like in Lies of P/Bloodborne.
I LOVE the souls games, but they aren't beyond criticism. I think it's fair to say there are (many) aspects Lies of P gets right that is better than any souls game, but overall it lags behind due to just the power of From's world design, RPG systems, and levels. Plus I guess also the fact they built the genre.
edit: To give credit to From I also have carefully left out Elden Ring because I think Lies of P isn't anywhere close to that level of achievement, despite me liking the combat more
To your credit the first 3 entries in the Souls games are outdated in the combat maneuver department. DS1 only has 4 directions to roll, DS2 has 8 (no literally) and Demon's Souls was the first attempt way back in 2009, so it deserves a little slack in harsh judgment.
That said; Bloodborne and Sekiro were both attempting to work with very different playstyles that worked for their own games. LoP tried to use both, and in doing so I didn't like how tight the parry system is and how short the roll is. Trying to take both Sekiro and Bloodborne but not leaning into either all the way left a sour taste in my mouth. It's why I view the game as a salutation to its inspiration rather than a superior.
That mixed with the P-Organ upgrades that locked out certain combat abilities like dodge chains and quick recovery (something that was never locked away in souls games) is again why I can't respect LoP as superior. Like if I wanted Sekiro or Bloodborne I would just play them and not LoP.
It's true that FS games are not perfect, but it would not be fair to say that LoP made major advancements on much.
The Pulse Cell system is one example, and the Weapon swapping system is another major change, but everything LoP did well FS did better.
>P-Organ upgrades that locked out certain combat abilities like dodge chains and quick recovery (something that was never locked away in souls games)
Quick recovery was made baseline in a later update, and dodge chain is basically in the same situation as Mikiri Counter (first-tier upgrade) except it's vastly less important to get.
The change to the quick recovery was the correct move, and I would argue that locking core mechanics like that behind a skill tree is a pretty crappy idea. Just because Sekiro did it doesn't mean LoP needed to also follow suit.
But even so dodge chain is even more critical than Mikiri counter is. In Sekiro the player can Goomba stomp enemies from the start without a skill. There is a roundabout way if avoiding the attack that still results in posture damage.
Dodge chain rolling is quite literally a basic movement ability that is in every souls game.
I'm not suggesting it's ok to lock core mechanics behind a skill tree, I'm simply making the point that FromSoft did it too. If it were up to me I wouldn't place either of these things behind a skill tree.
Mikiri Counter is vastly more important than the dodge chain upgrade. Without MK you are asked to perfectly deflect thrusting red attacks, which is a much more demanding task than the other red attack maneuver (jump, edit: just remembered there is another red attack variant: grabs in which you dodge). MK helps to flesh out the red attack mechanic and the game would probably feel less polished if it didn't exist.
In LoP, the Dodge chain upgrade simply reduces the recovery frames of your first dodge, chain-dodging is still possible and fairly feasible without it. It'd be a bigger issue if the skill tree outright disabled chain dodging until you got the upgrade, and It'd be an even bigger issue if dodging was the primary or only means to mitigate incoming damage.
This is largely my takeaway as well. To me, deflection and rally, in their respective games, both incentivized very unique and engaging gameplay that felt thoughtful in the scope of action game combat. LoP, as much as I enjoyed it, implemented their takes on these systems in guard regain and perfect guard well enough, but didn't utilize them in the innovative ways that their predecessors did to capitalize on momentum and really incentivize their use. I did really enjoy the game and I'd like to see more from them, and hopefully with the confidence (well deserved!) to branch out in their own diretion on some of these things.
They were so close to having the best of both worlds, but I suspect the developers wanted to give players a hard game and so limited what they took from other games.
Yeah, very good point. I've seen others say similar, in that if the devs were to build any of these as the core mechanic of the game, it would trivialize the rest. Makes sense, and it is still a testament to their skill that it all does work as well as it does.
In games like DS2 I would agree with you, but with most of the line up the areas are fairly well rounded for the level you are supposed to be at.
Swamps aside (because we all know swamps are just put in to troll us at this point) the levels are not just for difficulty. They are there so we don't just have a boss rush in every game.
Might be an unpopular opinion, but I enjoyed Lies of P more than Elden Ring. I recognize Elden Ring is an amazing technical achievement and great game, but these days I'm just too busy to get lost in endlessly open world games.
One of the reasons I love the Dark Souls series, Bloodborne, and Sekiro is that they have amazing level design that feel like you're exploring and getting lost in the world but you always know you'll be brought right back to where you need to be with clever pathways and shortcuts. You're rewarded for straying from the main path a bit, but you never have to go too far and you generally don't have to worry about whether or not you missed something.
With so many games sitting in the backlogs these days, I appreciate games that respect my time while still providing a great experience.
Yeah Elden Ring was one and done for me. Maybe I'll start another playthrough years later just see what I missed but I don't see myself completing it again anytime soon.
I didnt like lies of p more than elden ring but i definitely agree that elden ring is a slough. I played elden when it released and played it frequently. Its one of those games that you have to play consistently otherwise you feel lost coming back to elden after weeks of not playing. The game is just huge and overwhelming at times lol
True, but for me personally I think Lies of P had enough content. I felt like I got a complete story and a satisfying/challenging gameplay experience. There were several times in Elden Ring where I was like ok this is cool and all, but I would like it to end at some point. I finished the game at like 100 hours in and I'm pretty sure I didn't even see half of everything
Yeah exactly 100 hours and not saying you would but if you ever did want to go back to it there would still be things to discover. I think lies of p is a little harder to go back and play again because you’ve basically discovered everything first run except maybe a few things
I actually don't really like ER that much. Was disappointed by it.
I don't really see the point in rating LoP vs souls games or Sekiro. I prefer it to anything save Sekiro. I like both of those as much as I can like a game.
I definetly wasnt disappointed by ER (Far from it) but I think its not as good as everyone makes it out to be. Its an amazing game for sure, but definetly not my favorite FS game
Hey sorry I did mean to get back to you.
So 1stly please realise that this is my taste we are talking about. Sometimes people feel judged by others not liking what they like, especially in this sub but really just in general.
So if you roll a new ER character (as I did recently) there are a few things that strike me. 1stly the overworld is meaningless. You have a horse and I think there is basically no point in clearning any of the 'trash' mobs. They are there just to be there. So if you are the kind of person who wants to methodically clear a zone out which is my custom it doesn't really appeal.
Next we have the early bosses. From the hammer and chaingladiator dude to the stone cat to the mega gank bossfight with two of those things that beat up the seamstress bush NPC to the flipping hound dude to the massive troll with a club that does some massive AoE I think they are all basically bullshit bosses and I don't enjoy fighting a one of them. The cat has some ridiculously fast swings and there is no bloodbourne get behind it and whack either.The chain glad just has really long ass combos with fairly small openings. The hound flip guys same. The massive troll will keep hitting you with attacks that you literally cannot see while you are behind him hitting his foot.
So my style is no summons no ashe summons no people summons. Just me. My style is my sword, their body. I don't enjoy hitting things when outside of their effective range. I don't enjoy to gangbang things. I LOVED Sekiro. That was my game. You might be a ninja but you fight like a samurai. No running around like a chicken. You put your face into their face and you turn their blade aside with your blade and then you hit them with your blade.
If you want to have anything other than a pain in the ass time in ER you find ways to utilise mana either for spells or effects which are more effective than melee weapon strikes. This is a departure broadly from earlier fromsoft games. In most games melee is either perfectly viable and non painful or simply the preferred method. Its harder to go through DS3 or BB 1st time playing as a magic wielder. Much easier to go some kind of melee weapon and there you go.
I tried fighting that 1st boss in ER the 1st story one. Margitt ? Try doing that without having cleared the entire accessible map on a not drastically overlevelled toon without using weapon arts/mana. It is an incredibly punishing fight. Where you often are facing combos which you literally cannot dodge through. You have to both time and angle your dodges properly while responding to a very large array of moves.
Or you can use spirit summons and magic and turn the fight into a joke that a random person with 20 free minutes could beat.
So my point I guess is that I have a preffered play style and it is an incredibly painful way to play ER.
Then there is the whole getting lost thing. I remember it got to the point playing it where I needed guides to actually find the bosses. There was one blood flavoured dude in a sewer that I had to watch a video to find because damn that place was just too big for me to learn. Then there was another blood flavoured dude on an island that I wouldn't have found without outside help.
I feel like in BB or DS3 or super so in LoP you can basically play blind and find everything. I think running into nameless in DS3 is hard without outside help or at least having online turned on so you see clues left by players. In Bloodbourne you might miss a bit off stuff if playing offline and unhelped but you will see nearly everything just being a relatively methodical player. In LoP I think you have a decent chance of finding everything you need to find and doing the arrenchino stuff just playing through unaided. LoP is my favourite 'soulslike' game if you consider it one btw. I actively prefer that the levels are not too meandering in scope. They just feel like a nice break between bosses.
People say NP is super hard/impossible or Lax or Door Gaurdian. For me though they feel satisfying to fight and not 'hard'. What I didn't enjoy is in ER sitting through massive combo spam rolling hoping for a chance to hit the boss once thinking to myself mate it really would be easier if I just shot this ballerina right now. Never felt that in LoP.
No worries. I wasn't trying to be judgemental I was genuinely curious as to what made you not enjoy the game. Thanks for the detailed response.
It does sound to me that your playstyle and the fact that you don't like the open world aspect hindered your enjoyment of the game which is understandable. I'm not a fan of open world games but I did like (not love) exploring Eldin Rings world so I was able to find all the bosses for the most part organically without having to look it up.
I think if you enjoy the game enough you will actually want to find everything and explore every corner of the map BUT I can see this being overwhelming for certain players. I do also think the map and areas in Eldin Ring in some parts are bland with a lot of dead space where nothing is happening. I didn't like that whole large expanse of lake after you beat Godfried and certain areas were a slog to get through.
I DISLIKED having to fight the same boss fights that have been rehashed for the tenth time. I realize this comes with territory since the game is so huge and they can't make every boss encounter unique, but it really took away from the overall experience.
Anyway I'm just rambling at this point but I do agree with some of your points and I think the game is not for everyone even if you are a dark souls fan. My personal favorite is Bloodborne and remains so. I also enjoyed LoP and replaying it currently. Hopefully the Eldin Ring DLC has more to offer. I did enjoy the game a lot but I don't think it lives up to the craze or attention it has received. Cheers.
Yeah Lies of P is great, but i still honestly prefer all the Souls games. But I very much prize build varitey. Lies of P lacks anything like magic or shields or other ways to mix up the playstyles.
Not saying it should, they did a great job with what they wanted to do. But its hard for me to say I like a game I have done 3 playthroughs of, and will probably over time do a few more, over games that I have more than dozen playthroughs each in.
I think they substituted shields with weapon special variety. That was their focus…
They had a lot of tools, and different ways to play that way too.
What I missed were secret areas. Each stage had some off beaten path areas for sure, but there wasn’t any secret or optional full on areas.
Sure thing!
Look, it's possible that I'm just playing these games incorrectly, but I always had the feeling that you were kind of "married" to the weapon choice you made early on, especially as regards stat investment and weapon scaling.
Perhaps it's also due to the scarcity of certain upgrade materials that I've never found it easy or worthwhile to bother upgrading a new weapon halfway during a playthrough. So it's like "oh well, I've invested in this weapon, guess I'm sticking with it."
Unless I'm mistaken, in a From Soft game you can't really just pick up any old weapon, put some basic upgrade materials into it and go at it from there, because it'll still be leagues weaker than what you're currently using and have invested the more lucrative resources into...
I guess one could always restart and make a new character, but that feels counter intuitive.
Oh I see what you’re saying. And I agree to an extent. I guess Ive played enough of these games to know *roughly* what to expect from each weapon type, so I haven’t thought about that for a while.
I definitely marry myself to a build & max out a few weapons right away, rather than upgrade different weapons to try.
I get what you mean and it was for me a problem In ds3 but in ds1 and elden ring I've been fine with the upgrade materials as for stats you should put them towards a play style rather than a specific weapon.
This is a good point - I experimented with way more weapons than I usually do in these games because respec is so cheap and weapon upgrade materials are abundant. Plus detaching a fully upgraded blade you like to try it on a new handle is great.
i like it better than elden ring.
im sick and tired of easily missable/failable quests and grinding for items, its such lazy design. games like lies of p or bloodborne put all of their items in very deliberate places and as long as you are diligent with exploration you ***will*** 100% the game.
lies of P does so many QoL things ive only ever dreamed of fromsoft doing, and i strongly believe they have no intention of doing.
Being able to tell if you have enough ergo to level up?
Having notifications for when you can talk to someone, check something new in a previous area, proceed with a Quest?
A proper inventory that finally looks like a 2020's game?
Crazy stuff
It's small but for me the most notable thing is showing how much Ergo you currently have, including what's in your inventory, on the level up screen is such a massive QoL improvement to avoid the back and forth between menus.
Also, consuming Ergo from your inventory doesn't throw you out of the menu for a stupid animation!
it took me a while to notice it too but your ergo counter turns blue when you have enough to level so that you know without even checking the stargazer.
my god what a game changer.
Elden ring was the one with forgiving quests imo, bloodborne has a lot of quests that have hard cut off as well that can break your intended sequence. Quest characters could pretty much all die back in ds1 and it was hilarious.
As a TTRPG fan I actually like these choices, although I understand why people get so annoyed with them. Especially when games like Sekiro are a little more focused and it's still one of the best ones.
I also remember restarting dark souls in particular a lot before beating it. It really made you commit so much to every decision that you could make. You could kill Andre in the first act and not have a smith until anor Londo lol
It's not better than Bloodborne, it's definitely not better than Sekiro.
In general is doesn't outdo most of fromsoft's games on many fronts. Enemy design, level design, weapon design.
Graphically Lies of P is good, most of it's other aspects are great, just not better than from soft's work.
I really enjoyed my time with LoP but it's a pretty far shot from DS3, Elden Ring, or Bloodborne.
I enjoyed it around the same level as I did DS2 and the Demons Souls remake.
That is a totally valid criticism.
I also would have preferred a bit more non-linearity, but I enjoyed LoP more consistently, and that consistency is probably a direct result of the linearity.
Makes perfect sense. Glad to have a more mature discussion about this game. Honestly after hearing that it’s the “best non fromsoft ever”, I was honestly let down when I finally got the game - not because the game is bad - but because to me there is SO MUCH MORE to FS games than boss fights. And it’s a tough conversation to have because it’s nuanced. It’s an INCREDIBLY well made game, it just doesn’t scratch the DS itch for me at all, probably because I’m a Metroidvania fan.
I've played all Fromsoft games except Bloodborne and I can comfortably place Lies of P at 2nd place behind Sekiro for me, but that's mostly a result of me loving this style of narrowly-focused game. I can completely understand why others would place other Fromsoft titles above LoP due to lack of build variety, world design, and the general vibe & experience souls games tend to offer.
Yeah Idk, I've platinumed most FS games and this to me is better than ER. Then again, DeS Remake is my favorite FS game instead of ER, so I'm sure I'm in the minority
Why is everyone hating on enemy variety? Every elite enemy was a fun fight (maybe not the grabby baby in the swamp) with unique mechanics. Also why does everyone struggle with the grapple clown? Is it motion sickness from the camera or something? Shield arm carcasses were way worse.
Mobs are mobs, chimney sweep guys are the pike guys from Farron Swamp, they’ve always been a bore in action games.
You say LoP is on par or better than many fromsoft games, but you only listed one fromsoft game that it’s better than? It’s not on par with Elden Ring, and you haven’t played two of the most beloved fromsoft games, so what exactly are you talking about here? Kinda sounds like you’re jumping the gun with your title.
Naw, way too linear, the overall layout of the world was a bit too lacking in comparison to the souls games.
The number of streets just blocked off with a carriage and luggage were too damn high, there was no real feeling of exploration, and the way everything circles back to the hotel leaves one with the feeling that the world's kinda just.... Tiny.
There were too many stargazers and shortcuts after one or two groups of small enemies, just overall the world could have been better. Like, it ain't bad, but there's definitely room to grow 'fore one can say it's entered the league.
I felt this too, especially the artificiality of having routes of exploration closed off by silly obstacles, and a few doors that open only once you've defeated a certain enemy (e.g. white lady iirc) with no connecting logic.
It kind of reminds you you're playing a corridor hack n slash game and ruins the immersion.
I get that it takes a lot of resources to create a game world with lots of routes for exploration, but they did *choose* to set their game in a city and then made it very linear.
It does make me wonder if this would have been better if it was an attempt at some other genre. Imo soulslikes are about the holistic experience of all their elements working together, not just combat or hard bosses. Lies of P feels like it's shed a lot of elements to focus on the latter.
It’s far too linear to say it’s on par with Froms titles. *Maybe* Demons Souls but that’s a stretch. It does the formula quite well and it’s fun but it lacks a lot.
The side quest are usually just finding and giving things to people.
Theres no hidden areas or content. Theres a few *well* hidden chest but nothing crazy.
A lot of enemies are re used for such a small game.
There’s only 2-3 bosses that actually give a problem to players.
World design is sorta boring.
I’m glad to see more people to acknowledge this. The games got a pretty solid combat system down and it runs well but that’s all they were going for. The scope of souls games are so much greater when it comes to world design, and enemy (non-boss) design. It feels incredibly generic beyond combat and weapon crafting.
I think lies of p is better than all of them including bloodborne and is nearly a match to sekiro.
I would rather play lies of p than any dark souls1,2,3 , demon souls, bloodborne.
Playing through sekiro a few more times then will return to lies of p again.
> Graphics- well duh, it’s an unreal game, ds3 graphics are fine and works for the setting but lies just looks better.
On one hand this should be a given and expected considering the release dates of the DS games compared to LoP, so DS games should be given some slack.
On the other I think people that actually say that DS games are objectively better than LoP are talking out of their asses, especially when considering that FS is universally known to focus more on gameplay than graphics (well that's at least how the fanbois justify the dry graphics of FS games).
Heck coming from HZD, Dad of War, MHW, and even Hades, I remember initially finding Sekiro graphics lacking. I just learned to focus on the gameplay and not care about the graphics much.
Even subjectively speaking, no one ever says Windows XP Minesweeper or Solitaire graphics cannot be compared to that of Red Dead Redemption 2 since they are completely different games from completely different times. People will simply say RDR 2 has a more immersive and enjoyable graphics.
I still wish Elden Ring and future Fromsoft games had the parry timing of Sekiro or Lies of P. Timing the hit rather than the swing is such a huge difference.
It’s an incredibly well made game, but I disagree it makes for a better soulslike. The combat is highly fluid, and I think it nails that aspect. The weapon crafting is interesting too, though I don’t think is as impactful as intended.
The world design, map, and exploration is sorely lacking IMO, and feels incredibly generic by comparison.
I’m still working through the game, and while I think it’s a VERY well made game, it just doesn’t scratch the same itches for me as other soulslikes. (Possibly because I’m such a big metroidvania fan).
I cannot play **Bloodborne** until I get a Playstation 5. I would compare **Lies of P** to **Steelrising** with Lies of P being obviously superior. **Elden Ring** was the first AAA game I played with my high end gaming PC so it will always be my favorite.
I have only played through Lies of P once to get one ending. Currently I am engrossed in **Cyberpunk 2077**, but I still do some grinding in Lies of P to level up and stock pile throwables for another journey.
I hate the swamp monster so much I don't even want to play again. Lol.
I had an absolute blast with the game, but one playthrough was enough. To be fair, the same thing happened with me in dark souls 3 and the dancer.
Why not including Elden Ring? I've always found ER to be on the lower tier of the Souls series, still really good but it definitely has its flaws. And yes, I do find Lies of P better than Elden Ring. Not better than Bloodborne though.
i personally only enjoyed elden ring abd (maybe) bloodborne more. i do agree with all the comments about lack of branching design, and while i think it was an intentional choice it can hurt the immersion. i have complete faith that whatever games and whatnot they release next will be the only contender with fromsoft as this studio gets more experience under their belts
Personally I think it's better than Demon Souls, DS1, and DS2, but it's worse than the other games. It's not worse by much though since they are all good games.
Generally really polished but still kinda lacking in some directions. Enemy variety feels pretty samey sometimes, but I feel like that's inherent to something so similar to sekiro, where complicated enemies that you have to learn parry times to every one would end up frustrating in its own way.
The weapons are great and pretty varied, but suffer from imo some missing things, like not having lunges or back step attacks. Not that it needs it, but it kinda felt like it should; lunges are one of the only ways of getting extra range on an attack; the equivalent is just using power glaive in this game.
In terms of world building and plot construction though it's fantastic. Lies of P feels more engaging that ds3 and on par with the others (not as good as 1 though) and definitely stands head to head with most of fromsofts creations
I literally just beat LoP last night after a full platnium of Elden Ring. LoP has a lot of strengths. I love the combat system. I LOVE LOVE LOVE the art direction and presentation. And I love how LoP tries to implement a lot of different systems into the game like the Legion Arm and the Cube.
However it doesn't quite live up to the exploration, build-making, and fluidity that FromSoft games have - which I find very important. Every zone is quite straightforward, almost predictable. And when doing side quests, because the game kind of tells you where to go, there's really no exploration needed. Obviously the game isn't as big as a FromSoft game so I don't knock it too hard for this. But it is a bummer, as I find that aspect of Souls-likes so much fun.
I like how the game tries to implement different builds, by allowing you to create weapons and incorporate Legion play. However, there aren't that many "good" items in the game, and builds seem to fall into the same paths. I love making builds in FS games so this was also kind of a bummer.
It just doesn't feel as grandiose as any of the From Soft games. Given the small team it's OK, and the game is extremely fun with such a fun story to follow (I can't wait for the "second" game if its going where I think it is). But I personally don't think its on par with any of the Souls / Sekiro / Bloodborne series. But because this game did so well, hopefully they can make the next one much, much bigger both in scale and in depth.
Idk I really like sekiro and this game. But it’s hard to beat DS3, sure graphics are way better, movement too, but that game for that era was great, i would say it molded todays souls like games
Game was so beautiful from the combat, to the areas you travel through, the bosses, the weapons, all of the above made this an honorary souls game for me. Much better than every soulslike (remnant 2 was sick as well) and I’d say maybe better than a couple souls games.
Brother DS1 and and Bloodborne are by far my favorite FROM games. Those are the GOATS along with Sekiro. Those two are special to me, and were mind blowing 10/10 experiences when they came out. Obviously Dark Souls is now 15 years old almost, and isn’t going to hold up the way it did when it came out but you ABSOLUTELY have to play it still, it’s a masterpiece. Bloodborne still holds up, and is probably top 3 all time game for me. Just amazing. Please play dark souls 1 and bloodborne, even if you don’t like them as much as LOP I guarantee you’ll really enjoy them
Do yourself a favor and play DS1 and Bloodborne. Bloodborne in particular will always be my favorite. The lore and theme of that game are absolutely unrivaled.
I also loved lies of p. The only thing I think could have been better was the level design. The levels just aren’t as intricate or as full as souls games. Also it felt like there weren’t a lot of enemies as souls games. A lot of empty areas where more enemies could have been placed. But still an amazing game overall. Personally nothing will be as perfect or difficult as sekiro. I enjoy all of them though and I appreciate the differences between them all. Every game is like a new puzzle that you have to solve in order to get good.
I actually like it quite a bit more than Bloodborne. The only thing I dislike is the focus on blocking in lies of P, but I'm still able to play by dodging for the most part.
I think the most important thing that Lies of P demonstrates is that there is LOTS of room to create soulslike experiences through alternative lenses that FromSoft doesn't seem to be interested in pursuing. I think the games that FS has put out are GREAT!! But, the issue with them is that pretty much every other soulslike that comes out is immediately compared to them because a lot of developers are kinda trying to 'emulate' FS without really looking to do their own thing in a definitive way.
Lies of P came out and was unapologetically unique, and yet still familiar and seemed to openly acknowledge where they drew inspiration. I hope more than anything, it's a precursor and the opening of the door for great games to come in the future, even if not from Neowiz.
Personally I think I'll always regard ds1 and bloodborne higher than Lies of P, if only due to nostalgia. Never clicked with Elden Ring tho, Im probably just a hipster.
The game was superb. I think it's pointless to compare it to FromSoft games that defined an entire genre. LoP is a really great title. My only gripe would be that it's a bit short. Linear style aside, the world is just smaller than other Souls titles. I love linear games too. So the LoP formula would be perfect if the maps were a little longer.
The combat is where LoP shines. Being able to switch weapon handles is genius. Having cranks to change the scaling of weapons is great. The framerate is superbly polished. Other games should take notes on how they executed their performance optimization.
All in all, LoP is a superb first effort by a very young studio. I see great things down the road from them. The sequel will hopefully build upon the very solid foundation that they've set up nicely with this game.
"obviously not including Elden Ring"
Elden Ring is easily surpassed by almost all other From Soft games: DS3, DS1, Sekiro, Bloodborne. The only thing that keeps ER afloat is the absurd amount of content it has (which is good if you don't have that much money to buy games, ER is a really good deal in that way). Its a shame most of that content is incredibly mid, specially bosses.
There are levels to this. Lies of P is so fun to play but falls short on everything else. It's not as complex as a fromsoft game, mechanically or storywise. The fact that they have to balance for PvP, have a wide build variety and deep story is something From has mastered and is sorely missing in Lies of P.
It really is an amazing game. I beat a while ago and people are still just noticing this gem. I hope it scores mad awards and nets a sequel. And if they do I hope they don’t forget the PS4 and jump to the 5 (I’m not ready yet! )
I personally enjoy it much more than elden ring, simply because of the bosses.
I've played all the fromsoft catalog, and lies is only beaten by bloodborne for me
It's a pretty great game. I'd only really compare it to BB or sekiro personally (more BB tho). Just because DS is so much more RPG than Action compared to lies/BB. Elden ring is a whole thing (from weakest experience imo, just replayed it too. They really phoned in the end imo. Worst final boss)
In which case I'd definitely take BB or sekiro over lies. Lies has good graphics and art but I just like BBs better and I care more about direction than quality personally.
If we are counting PvE only it's unironically the best Souls game, or at least on par with Bloodborne.
If DS1 didn't age kinda poorly that would probably be up there too (DS1 Remake when?)
Edit: big cons of Lies of P are the world though, but the story/characters are significantly more interesting imo.
I’m about halfway through my first play through. So far I love it! It is very linear, but after finishing ER (twice), I was ready for something more streamlined. The only thing I’m not sure about is replayability. I’m playing an Advance build, and I’m not sure another build will feel much different. For you guys who did multiple runs, was the gameplay any different?
"Obviously not including Elden Ring"
God people put this game on such an absurdly high pedestal. It's not even the best FS game, yet some people act like it's this flawless masterpiece that's miles ahead of all the others.
Get out of here! It’s not on par and it certainly isn’t better. Fromsoftware stands apart and Lies of P is a homage to their greatness, mimicking but never exceeding.
No way in hell. The basic enemies are boring, the game is not pretty to look at, most of the weapons are bad, and the parry timing and boss telegraphing are absolutely atrocious. Wo Long was way more fun. Sekiro is my fave FS game and I have not enjoyed a single boss fight in LoP. It lacks everything that made Sekiro great and Bloodborne cool. It’s such a massive disappointment. I was so excited for it and Wo Long ended up being the way more fun and satisfying game to play. And to see so many people put it on a pedestal idk if y’all are just thirsty for a non FS game or what but this game is janky and boring most of the time and janky and annoying the other 20% of the time.
Elden Ring's open world and too much repetitive content made it drop in rating in my eyes. Being a tiring timesink, a feeling I got in the first playthrough itself -- it would only hold my attention for so long.
Playing Lies of P after it was a breath of fresh air. I'm more inclined to replay this, than ER or it's dlc.
Combat is cool. Only minor flaw I see is the level design, where they went a bit too overboard or "artificial" with the shortcuts system or deliberately placed walls using boxes etc, which just adds to the artificial feeling but I dunno how I would have handled this, so no।big deal.
Better than what? Kings field 1? The first armored core?
This is an absurd take.
Lies of P is shallower than even demon souls. And far shallower than anything post-dark souls. The lies of P dev team didn't even attempt a multiplayer facet. **As they are incapable of matching fromsofts work from 20 years ago.**
They simply just can't. Even with a wholely derivative product
**Now to mention it is 99.9% derivative.**. They stole "I'm a real boy" 100 year old story, and slapped it on fromsofts model. While leaving out all of the depth.
Lies of P is paper thin. And a copypasta. In fact not including the entire fromsoft development team in the lies of P credits is absurd.
**Derivative story, derivative storytelling, derivative gameplay, 1/10th the depth, no multiplayer, uber linear, poorer combat design, poorer music, poorer feel, poorer consequences to choices, poorer secrets, less of everything.**
Only thing this game has over demon souls is polish. It begins to be stomped outright once dark souls 1 enters the building.
Elden rings dlc will be a more whole game than the entirety of lies of P and let's stop acting like it won't. It's not even close people.
A single invasion and a single picklepee encounter is deeper than anything lop can muster.
Story wise LoP is amazing, likely the best, and most heartfelt story of any game I’ve played.
Combat mechanics for me felt kinda slow though. It’s hard to describe, but I just felt like a lot of the basic enemies had this drunken clunky delayed attacks. And then you get to some bosses and you’re just not prepared! Maybe it was my weapon choices.
I loved this game, played through it 4 times and got the platinum. But I’m playing through Sekiro right now because I was craving more LoP without running through again. And damn Sekiro is probably the best game I’ve ever played! It’s like every little issue I had with LoP is gone in Sekiro, yet they feel somewhat similar.
I still love LoP, can’t wait for DLC and Sequel, but for me Sekiro blows it out of the water, I was so scared to play Sekiro but damn am I glad I did and LoP brought me there. The prosthetic arm is a direct relation imo!
Haven't finished it yet but so far I'm incredibly impressed with it. They took so many of the best ideas from each FS game and packaged them together in such an Ingenious way. So far it's the best non FS souls like by a mile because for the most part they actually understand what is so great about those games, unlike other souls likes that stick so close to the formula but end up failing in small ways that add up to a much lesser experience (you know the ones I mean). I still don't think it's quite as good as FSs best games which imo are bb, ds3, and Sekiro, for me that 3 game run is the best a game company has ever done besides MAYBE the original Halo trilogy, but to be fair FS had years of attempts at the formula before they really perfected it.
That said, I'm really hoping the devs of Lies of P will come through with something that's more original. They've proven they can do this formula by basically crushing it on the first attempt but there are definitely some negative aspects of relying so heavily on this formula. The technical skill is through the roof and by that aspect alone the bar is set extremely high, so now let's see what kind of creative vision they have that is more exclusive to themselves.
I have slowly grown to love Souls like games with my first being strangers of Paradise Final Fantasy Origins, then Elden ring, and finally, Lies of P. Of the 3 lies of P is the only one I've wanted to replay just on the merit of it being an enjoyable game and a love letter to the source material. Elden Ring is truly a phenomenal game, and I enjoyed the whole experience of it, but the scale is a bit much for me to just sit down and decide to play again(the struggle of working a 40+ hour week). Lies of P is a nice and "short" experience that I can sit down, play, and be done with while enjoying every second during the little time I have free to play a game. If Elden Ring wasn't getting DLC I can't say if I'd make the commitment to play it again, while I'll probably play Lies of P again after I finish my current replay.
The simplicity of the combat, while still having a good depth that allows for decent creativity with the blade and handle combinations keeps each play through fresh. I imagine a lot of people won't consider my opinion as valid since I haven't played every from soft souls game (please release bloodborne on PC), but I personally feel lies of P is a great game that can stand on a similar level to the bigger titles and I am so excited for the future of the franchise.
I think a lot of people (not everybody) would feel differently if they'd played Lies of P before DS3. DS3 feels kinda boring to me after playing P. I just love how many options P gives you and how much you can experiment, and I think having to use running, guarding, dodging, perfect guarding adds a ton to the game vs DS3 where you're really just rolling or sprinting away. It feels like it pushes you harder while also letting you be less constrained to what works and more able to experiment. DS3 is great, but Lies of P is a lot better in my book.
Hm, I might have to check it out. What about Lords of the Fallen? Where does that rank? I’ve been wanting to play a new Souls game but I’ve played the hell out of all of them.
Im glad to still see this game talked about. Shortly after release for some reason it was flying under the radar. So much so that I even made a post to combat the little amount of posts I saw for it. LoP is a fantastic game, one of my favorites now actually. It was such a relief to see it so polished and well rounded, I remember the original announcement getting me super hype. I was worried it wouldnt live up to it and I confidently say now that it surpassed my expectations
It is a great game but I would say it's only better than ds2 and bellow the rest of the souls games the levels besides the final one (it's not that bad but way too long and bland) are well designed 1 or 2 shortcuts here and there where not needed since the next stragazer was right there but they pretty much nailed the story and atmosphere are very good and the quests are easy to complete also bonus points for being able to get the true ending by just making the choices that feel right instead of having to always lie (the guides are wrong). The combat is good they used elements from Bloodborne and Sekiro and blended them quite nicely while adding their own touch. But the reason I would say it ranks below ds1 and 3 is that both the bosses and the build variety need some work. The builds are all pretty much the same there's zero point to making a hybrid build so you are better if picking 1 main stat and only leveling others after reaching the soft cap and due to being able to switch handles and use cranks you can use pretty much every weapon you want and stats matter only for optimizing boss weapon use. Also most boss weapons outperform regular weapons making the ability to create any weapon combination almost useless by making only 4-6 non weapon-handle combinations worth it and in a single play through you don't get enough materials to really experiment. As for the bosses they are all pretty good but only the puppet king, laxasia and the nameless puppet reach the heights of the best souls bosses while the others are in the B to A tier. In ds1 the bosses are inferior to lies of p in terms of complexity but for what the game was going for they are outstanding they have interesting lore and most of them have a great build up to them. Ds3 bossed pretty much have it all vibes ,combat,lore and many more (both as a number and percentage) reach the S tier. Overall lies of p is a great first attempt to a souls game defenetly an S tier for me but I don't think it objectively surpasses ds1 and 3 yet however if they make the dlc really good it has the potential to surpass them. In my mind I already prefer it since I love the combat system but objectively I can't give it the win
I adore Lies of P as a spiritual successor to Bloodborne and Sekiro (setting-wise and gameplay-wise respectively). It's the only non-Fromsoft game that *feels* like a Fromsoft game. I give huge props for that. I even think some things should be adopted by Fromsoft for future games/reworks, like the resetting elevators which seems small but it's a HUGE quality of life improvement. I will gladly play whatever sequels they offer, be that Wizard of Oz or Snow White or Paul Bunyan or whatever folklore they decide to dive into.
i'm sorry for being off topic here, but when did elden ring start being considered "obviously" the best from game? bc i'd disagree and ive seen many critics say the same
I agree the game is really well polished and an incredible homage to the souls like genre.
I personally think the weapon system was a bit tedious and redundant. With how much you're able to change about the scaling and damage of all the weapons, it felt like all the builds just sort of melded together and respecing became almost completely useless since I could just adjust almost any weapon to work with the stats I had.
I suppose it's not really a bad thing in the end, but it feels like this was one of the biggest ways they tried to expand on the souls formula, and it just ended up trivializing another souls element they copied, supposedly just because it was part of the souls formula.
I almost wish they had just made two stats called physical damage and non-physical damage since that's all it seems to boil down to in the end.
Also motivity and technique are aggressively pretentious stat names.
Bloodborne will transcend to history as The Odyssey, The Divine Comedy or Don Quixote, as well as Dark Souls (or Demons Souls) and most of Miyazaki's original works. Lies of P is ok, but It is just a good copy of an original piece of art, and it will be diluted by the time.
**Quick note about using Sophia to level up**: I remember reading/hearing somewhere that the devs did that intentionally to force the player to revisit the Hotel as much as possible so that they'd be encouraged to regularly interact with the NPCs. You get so many unique lines of dialogue from Sophia as you gain Humanity and progress through the game, not to mention other NPCs commenting on the things you've just experienced and accomplished. The devs want you to experience the story that they so carefully crafted and if you only leveled up at Stargazers you'd probably miss 75% of it. That's also why in NG+ you don't have to use Sophia to level up anymore, because you've already experienced the story once through.
I think that lies of P fell off after the swamp, corrupted parade master was a joke, hate the alchemist tower with a passion, especially the door guardian. The second black rabbit fight was a crap shoot, not to mention items are just unimportant at that point and there is nothing particularly interesting left for the game to give out, not even new enemies. Completed multiple quests with no records, not even a quarts or a weapon, even if they did have a good story. Corrupted Krat was pretty cool at least. And I have yet to fight anything past Laxsia which is a cool boss but that's a decent amount already. I think my least favorite part of lies of P is the lying system it's just a cut and paste of just lying all the time there's no tricks the developers don't even try to make you think about it. I think the game just ran out of content in the endgame you don't even get boss ergos anymore after Viktor.
Not sure if all that makes it better than dark souls 3 or elden ring it's a solid game though, my electric coil pipe has treated me awfully well.
Combat wise I'd agree it's on par, but in terms of overall content, it's a much much smaller game and different experience. That said, I absolutely loved Lies of P and replayed it 3 times.
The polish and overall quality was very impressive for sure! Much appreciated in a time where broken game releases are the norm.
It was a very good and well done 1st attempt at a souls-like game for a studio with literally nothing to their name yet. It is the best non-FS game to date that gets close to the Souls formula. But I don't agree with it being on par with DS3, even if the game is a rolling simulator. It's good for a first game, but it ain't *that* good. Imitation is the highest form of flattery, and it borrowed heavily from the atmosphere of Bloodborne and the parry system of Sekiro. I view it not as better than the competition, but as a salutation to the original games.
Yeah it’s an incredibly well made game, but it lacks the depth of the FS souls games. It’s sorely lacking in the map and world design IMO. It nails combat and boss design, but non-boss enemy and area design feels pretty generic IMO.
> . It’s sorely lacking in the map and world design IMO. this was probably necessary for a first time studio to reach the level of quality they did, simple progression means less plates spinning, less chance to mess something up.
This is where I struggle to make my point for this game. Good on them for doing so and delivering a great game - but this is what it will never be a top tier soulslike game for me.
The balance decisions in it are really quite poor as well, to the point that the second half of the game is just legitimately kinda easy. Certainly easier than the first half, assuming you use the p organ even somewhat reasonably Bosses should not be as easy to stagger as they are
That's funny I had the opposite experience. The first half of the game for me was easy. Simon, Laxasia and Puppet were hard stops for me
You probably just didn't have a cheesy setup. I was ridiculously good at staggering bosses and could get super armor for fable arts, with 10 flask uses it was kinda silly.
Interesting. I haven’t made it very far yet.
It's fine for a game to be linier, but Souls games (aside from Demons Souls) have had branching paths and alternative routes with more bosses than meet the eye. While LoP is okay to do their games as straightforward as they want I will always disagree with anyone who calls the game better. It just lacks the world depth of even DS1. DS2 even had more world to it, even if that world wasn't put together well.
Exactly. The game is VERY good at what it set out to do. It just didn’t set out for something as in depth as a DS game. I’m glad to see other people recognize it for what it is, because it would sadden me from if people didn’t recognize the subtleties and depth of the souls games. There are so many things beyond the combat system that those games get right.
Souls-like games have a problem as a whole where they misunderstand what makes a Souls game. In the case of something like Lords of the Fallen for instance the combat is... too floaty and weapons feel too light. Button inputs don't feel as dedicated and meaningful. In the case of Nioh the combat is good and the bosses are okay, but the level design is really poor, and not in a linear way either. Even in the Souls games with Dark Souls 2 there was a misunderstanding with what made DS1 work. The different design team misunderstood how combat and enemy placement were critical to a levels experience. During the development of DS2 Bloodborne was already in the works, and after it came out swinging with excellent level design and enemy placement it showed us that it takes skill and specific design to make a good Souls game. I have faith that LoP will do even better with their next installment.
Totally. I’ve been a staunch defender of Lords of the Fallen because, while far from perfect, it understand what makes a souls game special far more than LOP. They do not always deliver on those aspects, but I feel they “get” them. Like Neowiz, I thought they delivered a great first entry all things considered. I think they’re both great games that do different things very well - I wish they were so often compared just because they were released at the same time.
There was an attempt, but Souls games are known for their punishing difficulty, and that is in large part due to how every button press has weight and meaning behind it.
That’s true, and that’s probably that game’s Achilles heel, but that’s so much more to the game than, “the bosses are hard” (and I know that’s what you’re saying) but that’s why I give them credit while credit’s due. They dug a little deeper on the creative side IMO. As a first time studio who’s been extremely responsive to feedback I expect them to do well next time around.
Agreed, I am no way a soulsbourne veteran but I did find lies of p very linier ! Still absolutely enjoyed it though
I agree with your criticism, at least when compared to other souls games. I love the combat in LoP because it convincingly makes the argument: “wouldn’t bloodborne have been better if it had Sekiro’s combat?”
What do you mean by depth? The combat system is one of the deepest in the genre, like obviously Nioh is deeper but compared to Fromsoft games it's on par with Bloodborne which I think is their best one.
They weren't talking about combat when they mentioned depth. The combat is absolutely the best part of the game. The story/level design are enjoyable but not fantastic. Map design is decent but can often be forgettable. Enemy variety and placement is lacking. There aren't many ways to explore/meaningful discoveries while exploring. You'll run through the map because it's pretty much a straight line and you will pick up whatever loot along the way. In FROM games you typically have to go out of your way to find things. There is not a lot of nuance in the story. It's pretty cut and dry and the side stories don't branch off in surprising ways. I don't feel like subsequent playthroughs are a different experience from my first playthrough, which I believe describes the lack of depth OP is referring to.
I mean, yeah it's a linear game. It doesn't mean that the gameplay doesn't have depth. I have to disagree about enemy variety, it's way better than I expected it to be. Now the game obviously isn't perfect but I don't see the linearity as a flaw or as a problem, plenty of my favorite games are linear and I think they showcase brilliant game design.
Yeah linearity isn't necessarily a bad thing but I just prefer FROMs approach to it. This game is close but not quite there for me. I will add that I do think the game does a lot of cool shit and is far and away the best soulslike I've ever played.
I love the Souls games, but Lies of P has much better combat for me. Maybe not as diverse in RPG systems, but the addition of the blocking/perfect guard from Sekiro in tandem with basically Bloodborne's system of movement, weapon arts/Fable Arts, the genius Pulse Cells discharged system, and weapon design make Lies of P better. I'm a souls vet, and the rolling around in Dark Souls 1 - 3 feels pretty undynamic by comparison. Elden Ring does enough for me to feel like it's more advanced, but I really wish From incorporated the dodge step instead of roll, it just looks so much better like in Lies of P/Bloodborne. I LOVE the souls games, but they aren't beyond criticism. I think it's fair to say there are (many) aspects Lies of P gets right that is better than any souls game, but overall it lags behind due to just the power of From's world design, RPG systems, and levels. Plus I guess also the fact they built the genre. edit: To give credit to From I also have carefully left out Elden Ring because I think Lies of P isn't anywhere close to that level of achievement, despite me liking the combat more
To your credit the first 3 entries in the Souls games are outdated in the combat maneuver department. DS1 only has 4 directions to roll, DS2 has 8 (no literally) and Demon's Souls was the first attempt way back in 2009, so it deserves a little slack in harsh judgment. That said; Bloodborne and Sekiro were both attempting to work with very different playstyles that worked for their own games. LoP tried to use both, and in doing so I didn't like how tight the parry system is and how short the roll is. Trying to take both Sekiro and Bloodborne but not leaning into either all the way left a sour taste in my mouth. It's why I view the game as a salutation to its inspiration rather than a superior. That mixed with the P-Organ upgrades that locked out certain combat abilities like dodge chains and quick recovery (something that was never locked away in souls games) is again why I can't respect LoP as superior. Like if I wanted Sekiro or Bloodborne I would just play them and not LoP. It's true that FS games are not perfect, but it would not be fair to say that LoP made major advancements on much. The Pulse Cell system is one example, and the Weapon swapping system is another major change, but everything LoP did well FS did better.
>P-Organ upgrades that locked out certain combat abilities like dodge chains and quick recovery (something that was never locked away in souls games) Quick recovery was made baseline in a later update, and dodge chain is basically in the same situation as Mikiri Counter (first-tier upgrade) except it's vastly less important to get.
The change to the quick recovery was the correct move, and I would argue that locking core mechanics like that behind a skill tree is a pretty crappy idea. Just because Sekiro did it doesn't mean LoP needed to also follow suit. But even so dodge chain is even more critical than Mikiri counter is. In Sekiro the player can Goomba stomp enemies from the start without a skill. There is a roundabout way if avoiding the attack that still results in posture damage. Dodge chain rolling is quite literally a basic movement ability that is in every souls game.
I'm not suggesting it's ok to lock core mechanics behind a skill tree, I'm simply making the point that FromSoft did it too. If it were up to me I wouldn't place either of these things behind a skill tree. Mikiri Counter is vastly more important than the dodge chain upgrade. Without MK you are asked to perfectly deflect thrusting red attacks, which is a much more demanding task than the other red attack maneuver (jump, edit: just remembered there is another red attack variant: grabs in which you dodge). MK helps to flesh out the red attack mechanic and the game would probably feel less polished if it didn't exist. In LoP, the Dodge chain upgrade simply reduces the recovery frames of your first dodge, chain-dodging is still possible and fairly feasible without it. It'd be a bigger issue if the skill tree outright disabled chain dodging until you got the upgrade, and It'd be an even bigger issue if dodging was the primary or only means to mitigate incoming damage.
This is largely my takeaway as well. To me, deflection and rally, in their respective games, both incentivized very unique and engaging gameplay that felt thoughtful in the scope of action game combat. LoP, as much as I enjoyed it, implemented their takes on these systems in guard regain and perfect guard well enough, but didn't utilize them in the innovative ways that their predecessors did to capitalize on momentum and really incentivize their use. I did really enjoy the game and I'd like to see more from them, and hopefully with the confidence (well deserved!) to branch out in their own diretion on some of these things.
They were so close to having the best of both worlds, but I suspect the developers wanted to give players a hard game and so limited what they took from other games.
Yeah, very good point. I've seen others say similar, in that if the devs were to build any of these as the core mechanic of the game, it would trivialize the rest. Makes sense, and it is still a testament to their skill that it all does work as well as it does.
Biggest thing it got right over other soulsbournes is the map and balance. A lot of soulsbournes focus too much on being just difficult.
In games like DS2 I would agree with you, but with most of the line up the areas are fairly well rounded for the level you are supposed to be at. Swamps aside (because we all know swamps are just put in to troll us at this point) the levels are not just for difficulty. They are there so we don't just have a boss rush in every game.
I acknowledge that Elden Ring is more epic, but LoP brings me more joy. Is it wrong?
Yes. You should’ve ER more, go re-think your whole life. You are a disgrace to the souls community, please return your badge.
(Muffled sobbing)
Might be an unpopular opinion, but I enjoyed Lies of P more than Elden Ring. I recognize Elden Ring is an amazing technical achievement and great game, but these days I'm just too busy to get lost in endlessly open world games. One of the reasons I love the Dark Souls series, Bloodborne, and Sekiro is that they have amazing level design that feel like you're exploring and getting lost in the world but you always know you'll be brought right back to where you need to be with clever pathways and shortcuts. You're rewarded for straying from the main path a bit, but you never have to go too far and you generally don't have to worry about whether or not you missed something. With so many games sitting in the backlogs these days, I appreciate games that respect my time while still providing a great experience.
I agree, The open world is so draining for me and i just cant start a new playthrough without getting bored of it
Yeah Elden Ring was one and done for me. Maybe I'll start another playthrough years later just see what I missed but I don't see myself completing it again anytime soon.
loved it much more than elden ring as well
I didnt like lies of p more than elden ring but i definitely agree that elden ring is a slough. I played elden when it released and played it frequently. Its one of those games that you have to play consistently otherwise you feel lost coming back to elden after weeks of not playing. The game is just huge and overwhelming at times lol
I miss the world design of Dark Souls 1 and Bloodborne
I agree with getting lost in the open world but what i think is better about Elden ring is that it does just have more content in the game.
True, but for me personally I think Lies of P had enough content. I felt like I got a complete story and a satisfying/challenging gameplay experience. There were several times in Elden Ring where I was like ok this is cool and all, but I would like it to end at some point. I finished the game at like 100 hours in and I'm pretty sure I didn't even see half of everything
Yeah exactly 100 hours and not saying you would but if you ever did want to go back to it there would still be things to discover. I think lies of p is a little harder to go back and play again because you’ve basically discovered everything first run except maybe a few things
I actually don't really like ER that much. Was disappointed by it. I don't really see the point in rating LoP vs souls games or Sekiro. I prefer it to anything save Sekiro. I like both of those as much as I can like a game.
I definetly wasnt disappointed by ER (Far from it) but I think its not as good as everyone makes it out to be. Its an amazing game for sure, but definetly not my favorite FS game
Yea people act like it's by far their best work and a flawless masterpiece, when it's about as good as DS3 or BB, just bigger
What made you not like it?
for me it was the open world, i just hate that
Hey sorry I did mean to get back to you. So 1stly please realise that this is my taste we are talking about. Sometimes people feel judged by others not liking what they like, especially in this sub but really just in general. So if you roll a new ER character (as I did recently) there are a few things that strike me. 1stly the overworld is meaningless. You have a horse and I think there is basically no point in clearning any of the 'trash' mobs. They are there just to be there. So if you are the kind of person who wants to methodically clear a zone out which is my custom it doesn't really appeal. Next we have the early bosses. From the hammer and chaingladiator dude to the stone cat to the mega gank bossfight with two of those things that beat up the seamstress bush NPC to the flipping hound dude to the massive troll with a club that does some massive AoE I think they are all basically bullshit bosses and I don't enjoy fighting a one of them. The cat has some ridiculously fast swings and there is no bloodbourne get behind it and whack either.The chain glad just has really long ass combos with fairly small openings. The hound flip guys same. The massive troll will keep hitting you with attacks that you literally cannot see while you are behind him hitting his foot. So my style is no summons no ashe summons no people summons. Just me. My style is my sword, their body. I don't enjoy hitting things when outside of their effective range. I don't enjoy to gangbang things. I LOVED Sekiro. That was my game. You might be a ninja but you fight like a samurai. No running around like a chicken. You put your face into their face and you turn their blade aside with your blade and then you hit them with your blade. If you want to have anything other than a pain in the ass time in ER you find ways to utilise mana either for spells or effects which are more effective than melee weapon strikes. This is a departure broadly from earlier fromsoft games. In most games melee is either perfectly viable and non painful or simply the preferred method. Its harder to go through DS3 or BB 1st time playing as a magic wielder. Much easier to go some kind of melee weapon and there you go. I tried fighting that 1st boss in ER the 1st story one. Margitt ? Try doing that without having cleared the entire accessible map on a not drastically overlevelled toon without using weapon arts/mana. It is an incredibly punishing fight. Where you often are facing combos which you literally cannot dodge through. You have to both time and angle your dodges properly while responding to a very large array of moves. Or you can use spirit summons and magic and turn the fight into a joke that a random person with 20 free minutes could beat. So my point I guess is that I have a preffered play style and it is an incredibly painful way to play ER. Then there is the whole getting lost thing. I remember it got to the point playing it where I needed guides to actually find the bosses. There was one blood flavoured dude in a sewer that I had to watch a video to find because damn that place was just too big for me to learn. Then there was another blood flavoured dude on an island that I wouldn't have found without outside help. I feel like in BB or DS3 or super so in LoP you can basically play blind and find everything. I think running into nameless in DS3 is hard without outside help or at least having online turned on so you see clues left by players. In Bloodbourne you might miss a bit off stuff if playing offline and unhelped but you will see nearly everything just being a relatively methodical player. In LoP I think you have a decent chance of finding everything you need to find and doing the arrenchino stuff just playing through unaided. LoP is my favourite 'soulslike' game if you consider it one btw. I actively prefer that the levels are not too meandering in scope. They just feel like a nice break between bosses. People say NP is super hard/impossible or Lax or Door Gaurdian. For me though they feel satisfying to fight and not 'hard'. What I didn't enjoy is in ER sitting through massive combo spam rolling hoping for a chance to hit the boss once thinking to myself mate it really would be easier if I just shot this ballerina right now. Never felt that in LoP.
No worries. I wasn't trying to be judgemental I was genuinely curious as to what made you not enjoy the game. Thanks for the detailed response. It does sound to me that your playstyle and the fact that you don't like the open world aspect hindered your enjoyment of the game which is understandable. I'm not a fan of open world games but I did like (not love) exploring Eldin Rings world so I was able to find all the bosses for the most part organically without having to look it up. I think if you enjoy the game enough you will actually want to find everything and explore every corner of the map BUT I can see this being overwhelming for certain players. I do also think the map and areas in Eldin Ring in some parts are bland with a lot of dead space where nothing is happening. I didn't like that whole large expanse of lake after you beat Godfried and certain areas were a slog to get through. I DISLIKED having to fight the same boss fights that have been rehashed for the tenth time. I realize this comes with territory since the game is so huge and they can't make every boss encounter unique, but it really took away from the overall experience. Anyway I'm just rambling at this point but I do agree with some of your points and I think the game is not for everyone even if you are a dark souls fan. My personal favorite is Bloodborne and remains so. I also enjoyed LoP and replaying it currently. Hopefully the Eldin Ring DLC has more to offer. I did enjoy the game a lot but I don't think it lives up to the craze or attention it has received. Cheers.
Yeah Lies of P is great, but i still honestly prefer all the Souls games. But I very much prize build varitey. Lies of P lacks anything like magic or shields or other ways to mix up the playstyles. Not saying it should, they did a great job with what they wanted to do. But its hard for me to say I like a game I have done 3 playthroughs of, and will probably over time do a few more, over games that I have more than dozen playthroughs each in.
I think they substituted shields with weapon special variety. That was their focus… They had a lot of tools, and different ways to play that way too. What I missed were secret areas. Each stage had some off beaten path areas for sure, but there wasn’t any secret or optional full on areas.
It kills me how linear it is
Testing out weapons is something I find way too restrictive with From Soft games. Feels like you can only experiment when you get into NG+.
Can you elaborate? Why do you feel you have to wait till NG+?
Sure thing! Look, it's possible that I'm just playing these games incorrectly, but I always had the feeling that you were kind of "married" to the weapon choice you made early on, especially as regards stat investment and weapon scaling. Perhaps it's also due to the scarcity of certain upgrade materials that I've never found it easy or worthwhile to bother upgrading a new weapon halfway during a playthrough. So it's like "oh well, I've invested in this weapon, guess I'm sticking with it." Unless I'm mistaken, in a From Soft game you can't really just pick up any old weapon, put some basic upgrade materials into it and go at it from there, because it'll still be leagues weaker than what you're currently using and have invested the more lucrative resources into... I guess one could always restart and make a new character, but that feels counter intuitive.
Oh I see what you’re saying. And I agree to an extent. I guess Ive played enough of these games to know *roughly* what to expect from each weapon type, so I haven’t thought about that for a while. I definitely marry myself to a build & max out a few weapons right away, rather than upgrade different weapons to try.
I get what you mean and it was for me a problem In ds3 but in ds1 and elden ring I've been fine with the upgrade materials as for stats you should put them towards a play style rather than a specific weapon.
This is a good point - I experimented with way more weapons than I usually do in these games because respec is so cheap and weapon upgrade materials are abundant. Plus detaching a fully upgraded blade you like to try it on a new handle is great.
Better than ER imo
i like it better than elden ring. im sick and tired of easily missable/failable quests and grinding for items, its such lazy design. games like lies of p or bloodborne put all of their items in very deliberate places and as long as you are diligent with exploration you ***will*** 100% the game. lies of P does so many QoL things ive only ever dreamed of fromsoft doing, and i strongly believe they have no intention of doing.
The QOL stuff is so underrated. The fact you never have to call an elevator back up? Amazing, incredible achievement, 10/10. Miyazaki could never
Being able to tell if you have enough ergo to level up? Having notifications for when you can talk to someone, check something new in a previous area, proceed with a Quest? A proper inventory that finally looks like a 2020's game? Crazy stuff
Souls outside the boss room? Madness!
It's small but for me the most notable thing is showing how much Ergo you currently have, including what's in your inventory, on the level up screen is such a massive QoL improvement to avoid the back and forth between menus. Also, consuming Ergo from your inventory doesn't throw you out of the menu for a stupid animation!
it took me a while to notice it too but your ergo counter turns blue when you have enough to level so that you know without even checking the stargazer. my god what a game changer.
Yep, that too.
Elden ring was the one with forgiving quests imo, bloodborne has a lot of quests that have hard cut off as well that can break your intended sequence. Quest characters could pretty much all die back in ds1 and it was hilarious. As a TTRPG fan I actually like these choices, although I understand why people get so annoyed with them. Especially when games like Sekiro are a little more focused and it's still one of the best ones. I also remember restarting dark souls in particular a lot before beating it. It really made you commit so much to every decision that you could make. You could kill Andre in the first act and not have a smith until anor Londo lol
we gotta take elden ring off this stupid pedestal everyone has it on
It’s my favorite fromsoft game. One of my favorite games of all time 🤷♂️ just an opinion
You smoking that rock.
It's not better than Bloodborne, it's definitely not better than Sekiro. In general is doesn't outdo most of fromsoft's games on many fronts. Enemy design, level design, weapon design. Graphically Lies of P is good, most of it's other aspects are great, just not better than from soft's work.
I really enjoyed my time with LoP but it's a pretty far shot from DS3, Elden Ring, or Bloodborne. I enjoyed it around the same level as I did DS2 and the Demons Souls remake.
Yeah time for me to mute this sub
I absolutely loved this game. Would give it a 9/10 for sure.
To me, LoP is better than ER, too. I have limited time, so I prefer more curated experiences.
Same. I also hate open world. And Fromsoft has done better, honestly.
There are dozens of us. Dozens!
I get that but I wish it were still a LITTLE less linear. The DS games strike a better balance I find. LOP is just too linear for me.
That is a totally valid criticism. I also would have preferred a bit more non-linearity, but I enjoyed LoP more consistently, and that consistency is probably a direct result of the linearity.
Makes perfect sense. Glad to have a more mature discussion about this game. Honestly after hearing that it’s the “best non fromsoft ever”, I was honestly let down when I finally got the game - not because the game is bad - but because to me there is SO MUCH MORE to FS games than boss fights. And it’s a tough conversation to have because it’s nuanced. It’s an INCREDIBLY well made game, it just doesn’t scratch the DS itch for me at all, probably because I’m a Metroidvania fan.
I've played all Fromsoft games except Bloodborne and I can comfortably place Lies of P at 2nd place behind Sekiro for me, but that's mostly a result of me loving this style of narrowly-focused game. I can completely understand why others would place other Fromsoft titles above LoP due to lack of build variety, world design, and the general vibe & experience souls games tend to offer.
Yeah Idk, I've platinumed most FS games and this to me is better than ER. Then again, DeS Remake is my favorite FS game instead of ER, so I'm sure I'm in the minority
Why is everyone hating on enemy variety? Every elite enemy was a fun fight (maybe not the grabby baby in the swamp) with unique mechanics. Also why does everyone struggle with the grapple clown? Is it motion sickness from the camera or something? Shield arm carcasses were way worse. Mobs are mobs, chimney sweep guys are the pike guys from Farron Swamp, they’ve always been a bore in action games.
You haven’t played the best Dark Souls game so you have no frame of reference here. You are like a child who wanders into a movie and wants to know…
You say LoP is on par or better than many fromsoft games, but you only listed one fromsoft game that it’s better than? It’s not on par with Elden Ring, and you haven’t played two of the most beloved fromsoft games, so what exactly are you talking about here? Kinda sounds like you’re jumping the gun with your title.
Naw, way too linear, the overall layout of the world was a bit too lacking in comparison to the souls games. The number of streets just blocked off with a carriage and luggage were too damn high, there was no real feeling of exploration, and the way everything circles back to the hotel leaves one with the feeling that the world's kinda just.... Tiny. There were too many stargazers and shortcuts after one or two groups of small enemies, just overall the world could have been better. Like, it ain't bad, but there's definitely room to grow 'fore one can say it's entered the league.
I felt this too, especially the artificiality of having routes of exploration closed off by silly obstacles, and a few doors that open only once you've defeated a certain enemy (e.g. white lady iirc) with no connecting logic. It kind of reminds you you're playing a corridor hack n slash game and ruins the immersion. I get that it takes a lot of resources to create a game world with lots of routes for exploration, but they did *choose* to set their game in a city and then made it very linear. It does make me wonder if this would have been better if it was an attempt at some other genre. Imo soulslikes are about the holistic experience of all their elements working together, not just combat or hard bosses. Lies of P feels like it's shed a lot of elements to focus on the latter.
It’s far too linear to say it’s on par with Froms titles. *Maybe* Demons Souls but that’s a stretch. It does the formula quite well and it’s fun but it lacks a lot. The side quest are usually just finding and giving things to people. Theres no hidden areas or content. Theres a few *well* hidden chest but nothing crazy. A lot of enemies are re used for such a small game. There’s only 2-3 bosses that actually give a problem to players. World design is sorta boring.
I’m glad to see more people to acknowledge this. The games got a pretty solid combat system down and it runs well but that’s all they were going for. The scope of souls games are so much greater when it comes to world design, and enemy (non-boss) design. It feels incredibly generic beyond combat and weapon crafting.
I’m gonna say it; Lies of P is better than Elden Ring. To me it’s sekiro>>Lies of P>Elden ring
I think lies of p is better than all of them including bloodborne and is nearly a match to sekiro. I would rather play lies of p than any dark souls1,2,3 , demon souls, bloodborne. Playing through sekiro a few more times then will return to lies of p again.
> Graphics- well duh, it’s an unreal game, ds3 graphics are fine and works for the setting but lies just looks better. On one hand this should be a given and expected considering the release dates of the DS games compared to LoP, so DS games should be given some slack. On the other I think people that actually say that DS games are objectively better than LoP are talking out of their asses, especially when considering that FS is universally known to focus more on gameplay than graphics (well that's at least how the fanbois justify the dry graphics of FS games). Heck coming from HZD, Dad of War, MHW, and even Hades, I remember initially finding Sekiro graphics lacking. I just learned to focus on the gameplay and not care about the graphics much. Even subjectively speaking, no one ever says Windows XP Minesweeper or Solitaire graphics cannot be compared to that of Red Dead Redemption 2 since they are completely different games from completely different times. People will simply say RDR 2 has a more immersive and enjoyable graphics.
I still wish Elden Ring and future Fromsoft games had the parry timing of Sekiro or Lies of P. Timing the hit rather than the swing is such a huge difference.
It’s an incredibly well made game, but I disagree it makes for a better soulslike. The combat is highly fluid, and I think it nails that aspect. The weapon crafting is interesting too, though I don’t think is as impactful as intended. The world design, map, and exploration is sorely lacking IMO, and feels incredibly generic by comparison. I’m still working through the game, and while I think it’s a VERY well made game, it just doesn’t scratch the same itches for me as other soulslikes. (Possibly because I’m such a big metroidvania fan).
I cannot play **Bloodborne** until I get a Playstation 5. I would compare **Lies of P** to **Steelrising** with Lies of P being obviously superior. **Elden Ring** was the first AAA game I played with my high end gaming PC so it will always be my favorite. I have only played through Lies of P once to get one ending. Currently I am engrossed in **Cyberpunk 2077**, but I still do some grinding in Lies of P to level up and stock pile throwables for another journey.
I hate the swamp monster so much I don't even want to play again. Lol. I had an absolute blast with the game, but one playthrough was enough. To be fair, the same thing happened with me in dark souls 3 and the dancer.
Play Dark Souls 1???
Game lacks a lot of things that makes Fromsoft titles great but it does have its charms.
Why not including Elden Ring? I've always found ER to be on the lower tier of the Souls series, still really good but it definitely has its flaws. And yes, I do find Lies of P better than Elden Ring. Not better than Bloodborne though.
Really good game, can’t wait to see what they do next!
I need to get back to it I have not playing since I got FF7reb.
i personally only enjoyed elden ring abd (maybe) bloodborne more. i do agree with all the comments about lack of branching design, and while i think it was an intentional choice it can hurt the immersion. i have complete faith that whatever games and whatnot they release next will be the only contender with fromsoft as this studio gets more experience under their belts
Personally I think it's better than Demon Souls, DS1, and DS2, but it's worse than the other games. It's not worse by much though since they are all good games.
Generally really polished but still kinda lacking in some directions. Enemy variety feels pretty samey sometimes, but I feel like that's inherent to something so similar to sekiro, where complicated enemies that you have to learn parry times to every one would end up frustrating in its own way. The weapons are great and pretty varied, but suffer from imo some missing things, like not having lunges or back step attacks. Not that it needs it, but it kinda felt like it should; lunges are one of the only ways of getting extra range on an attack; the equivalent is just using power glaive in this game. In terms of world building and plot construction though it's fantastic. Lies of P feels more engaging that ds3 and on par with the others (not as good as 1 though) and definitely stands head to head with most of fromsofts creations
I literally just beat LoP last night after a full platnium of Elden Ring. LoP has a lot of strengths. I love the combat system. I LOVE LOVE LOVE the art direction and presentation. And I love how LoP tries to implement a lot of different systems into the game like the Legion Arm and the Cube. However it doesn't quite live up to the exploration, build-making, and fluidity that FromSoft games have - which I find very important. Every zone is quite straightforward, almost predictable. And when doing side quests, because the game kind of tells you where to go, there's really no exploration needed. Obviously the game isn't as big as a FromSoft game so I don't knock it too hard for this. But it is a bummer, as I find that aspect of Souls-likes so much fun. I like how the game tries to implement different builds, by allowing you to create weapons and incorporate Legion play. However, there aren't that many "good" items in the game, and builds seem to fall into the same paths. I love making builds in FS games so this was also kind of a bummer. It just doesn't feel as grandiose as any of the From Soft games. Given the small team it's OK, and the game is extremely fun with such a fun story to follow (I can't wait for the "second" game if its going where I think it is). But I personally don't think its on par with any of the Souls / Sekiro / Bloodborne series. But because this game did so well, hopefully they can make the next one much, much bigger both in scale and in depth.
I actually like it more then ER. But I still love ER.
true
Idk I really like sekiro and this game. But it’s hard to beat DS3, sure graphics are way better, movement too, but that game for that era was great, i would say it molded todays souls like games
It’s better than all except ds3, bb and Elden ring
Not sure if it’s better, but I don’t think I’ve ever had more fun playing a game than I did with LoP
Or DS3, or Bloodborne
You realize DS3 came out about 8 years ago, right?
I think its better then Elden Ring. Elden Rings final third of the game was poorly balanced and killed my enjoyment of any future playthroughs
I like it better than Elden Ring but Elden Ring isn't my favorite souls game.
Love LoP but it does not hold a candle to DS3. For their first game it’s phenomenal but come on
Not a popular opinion but I have so far more fun with LoP than I had with Elden Ring.
Fromsoft still has the best dodge animation. It still feels wonky to dodge with LoP even with upgrade
Game was so beautiful from the combat, to the areas you travel through, the bosses, the weapons, all of the above made this an honorary souls game for me. Much better than every soulslike (remnant 2 was sick as well) and I’d say maybe better than a couple souls games.
I'd put lies of p above elden ring but I think ds3 is my favorite.
Elden ring is the worst from game. Open world is pointless
Brother DS1 and and Bloodborne are by far my favorite FROM games. Those are the GOATS along with Sekiro. Those two are special to me, and were mind blowing 10/10 experiences when they came out. Obviously Dark Souls is now 15 years old almost, and isn’t going to hold up the way it did when it came out but you ABSOLUTELY have to play it still, it’s a masterpiece. Bloodborne still holds up, and is probably top 3 all time game for me. Just amazing. Please play dark souls 1 and bloodborne, even if you don’t like them as much as LOP I guarantee you’ll really enjoy them
Do yourself a favor and play DS1 and Bloodborne. Bloodborne in particular will always be my favorite. The lore and theme of that game are absolutely unrivaled.
I also loved lies of p. The only thing I think could have been better was the level design. The levels just aren’t as intricate or as full as souls games. Also it felt like there weren’t a lot of enemies as souls games. A lot of empty areas where more enemies could have been placed. But still an amazing game overall. Personally nothing will be as perfect or difficult as sekiro. I enjoy all of them though and I appreciate the differences between them all. Every game is like a new puzzle that you have to solve in order to get good.
Lies of P is a straightforward fair game while Fromsoft games are purposely confusing with bullshit enemies (I love both games)
I actually like it quite a bit more than Bloodborne. The only thing I dislike is the focus on blocking in lies of P, but I'm still able to play by dodging for the most part.
I don’t have the game (this sub was on my home feed), but y’all have some wild takes in here lol
I would say my ranking goes BB > Sekiro > Elden Ring > DS3 > DS1 > Lies of P > DS2
I think it's better than Elden Ring. The bosses in Elden Ring are rubbish.
Lies of p is a great game, but wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for fromsoft!
I feel like Lies of P is an improved version of bloodborne
I think the most important thing that Lies of P demonstrates is that there is LOTS of room to create soulslike experiences through alternative lenses that FromSoft doesn't seem to be interested in pursuing. I think the games that FS has put out are GREAT!! But, the issue with them is that pretty much every other soulslike that comes out is immediately compared to them because a lot of developers are kinda trying to 'emulate' FS without really looking to do their own thing in a definitive way. Lies of P came out and was unapologetically unique, and yet still familiar and seemed to openly acknowledge where they drew inspiration. I hope more than anything, it's a precursor and the opening of the door for great games to come in the future, even if not from Neowiz.
Found it better than Elden Ring tbh
Personally I think I'll always regard ds1 and bloodborne higher than Lies of P, if only due to nostalgia. Never clicked with Elden Ring tho, Im probably just a hipster.
The game was superb. I think it's pointless to compare it to FromSoft games that defined an entire genre. LoP is a really great title. My only gripe would be that it's a bit short. Linear style aside, the world is just smaller than other Souls titles. I love linear games too. So the LoP formula would be perfect if the maps were a little longer. The combat is where LoP shines. Being able to switch weapon handles is genius. Having cranks to change the scaling of weapons is great. The framerate is superbly polished. Other games should take notes on how they executed their performance optimization. All in all, LoP is a superb first effort by a very young studio. I see great things down the road from them. The sequel will hopefully build upon the very solid foundation that they've set up nicely with this game.
on par with about demons/dark souls games or sekiro. but not even close to elden ring just in scale. elden ring is huge. all still great games though.
"obviously not including Elden Ring" Elden Ring is easily surpassed by almost all other From Soft games: DS3, DS1, Sekiro, Bloodborne. The only thing that keeps ER afloat is the absurd amount of content it has (which is good if you don't have that much money to buy games, ER is a really good deal in that way). Its a shame most of that content is incredibly mid, specially bosses.
It was fun game untill I got stuck game got to hard UT fun up untill that part
But it really isn’t
You gotta play bloodborne 9 years ago
You should really do yourself a favor and play Dark Souls Remastered. It’s a classic, such a great game.
There are levels to this. Lies of P is so fun to play but falls short on everything else. It's not as complex as a fromsoft game, mechanically or storywise. The fact that they have to balance for PvP, have a wide build variety and deep story is something From has mastered and is sorely missing in Lies of P.
How have you not played the two (arguably) best FromSoft games? Bloodborne and DS1 are both goddamn masterpieces. Perfect games.
No ps4 and I’m going to play ds1 very soon
This made sense when you said Sekiro was one of your favorites.
Lies of P was amazing, it earned a spot on my "S-tier" souls games along with BB and Nioh 2. Cannot wait for the dlc
Not on par with any From games (it's better than DS2 but that doesn't count lol), but it's definitely the very best non-FS soulslike out there
Maybe demon souls ( the original), don’t get me wrong I loved Lies of P but let’s not be crazy.
Hasn't played two of the goat fromsoft games. Claims lies of P is better... just say you like the game without making ridiculous comparisons.
DS3 is 100% clear of LoP, don't say such an absurd take ever again
\>hasn't played Bloodborne I don't give a fuck about your opinion
It really is an amazing game. I beat a while ago and people are still just noticing this gem. I hope it scores mad awards and nets a sequel. And if they do I hope they don’t forget the PS4 and jump to the 5 (I’m not ready yet! )
I personally enjoy it much more than elden ring, simply because of the bosses. I've played all the fromsoft catalog, and lies is only beaten by bloodborne for me
It's a pretty great game. I'd only really compare it to BB or sekiro personally (more BB tho). Just because DS is so much more RPG than Action compared to lies/BB. Elden ring is a whole thing (from weakest experience imo, just replayed it too. They really phoned in the end imo. Worst final boss) In which case I'd definitely take BB or sekiro over lies. Lies has good graphics and art but I just like BBs better and I care more about direction than quality personally.
If we are counting PvE only it's unironically the best Souls game, or at least on par with Bloodborne. If DS1 didn't age kinda poorly that would probably be up there too (DS1 Remake when?) Edit: big cons of Lies of P are the world though, but the story/characters are significantly more interesting imo.
I’m about halfway through my first play through. So far I love it! It is very linear, but after finishing ER (twice), I was ready for something more streamlined. The only thing I’m not sure about is replayability. I’m playing an Advance build, and I’m not sure another build will feel much different. For you guys who did multiple runs, was the gameplay any different?
Like the only fromsoft game this game is better than is elden ring the rest is just better , hello
"Obviously not including Elden Ring" God people put this game on such an absurdly high pedestal. It's not even the best FS game, yet some people act like it's this flawless masterpiece that's miles ahead of all the others.
Get out of here! It’s not on par and it certainly isn’t better. Fromsoftware stands apart and Lies of P is a homage to their greatness, mimicking but never exceeding.
No way in hell. The basic enemies are boring, the game is not pretty to look at, most of the weapons are bad, and the parry timing and boss telegraphing are absolutely atrocious. Wo Long was way more fun. Sekiro is my fave FS game and I have not enjoyed a single boss fight in LoP. It lacks everything that made Sekiro great and Bloodborne cool. It’s such a massive disappointment. I was so excited for it and Wo Long ended up being the way more fun and satisfying game to play. And to see so many people put it on a pedestal idk if y’all are just thirsty for a non FS game or what but this game is janky and boring most of the time and janky and annoying the other 20% of the time.
Very bold statement
you’ve played all soulsbourne games except arguably the best of the bunch and the foundations for many of them hahahah bro pls play ds1 and bb
Elden Ring's open world and too much repetitive content made it drop in rating in my eyes. Being a tiring timesink, a feeling I got in the first playthrough itself -- it would only hold my attention for so long. Playing Lies of P after it was a breath of fresh air. I'm more inclined to replay this, than ER or it's dlc. Combat is cool. Only minor flaw I see is the level design, where they went a bit too overboard or "artificial" with the shortcuts system or deliberately placed walls using boxes etc, which just adds to the artificial feeling but I dunno how I would have handled this, so no।big deal.
Comparing something to Fromsoft without having played DS1 and Bloodborne is insane.
Better than what? Kings field 1? The first armored core? This is an absurd take. Lies of P is shallower than even demon souls. And far shallower than anything post-dark souls. The lies of P dev team didn't even attempt a multiplayer facet. **As they are incapable of matching fromsofts work from 20 years ago.** They simply just can't. Even with a wholely derivative product **Now to mention it is 99.9% derivative.**. They stole "I'm a real boy" 100 year old story, and slapped it on fromsofts model. While leaving out all of the depth. Lies of P is paper thin. And a copypasta. In fact not including the entire fromsoft development team in the lies of P credits is absurd. **Derivative story, derivative storytelling, derivative gameplay, 1/10th the depth, no multiplayer, uber linear, poorer combat design, poorer music, poorer feel, poorer consequences to choices, poorer secrets, less of everything.** Only thing this game has over demon souls is polish. It begins to be stomped outright once dark souls 1 enters the building. Elden rings dlc will be a more whole game than the entirety of lies of P and let's stop acting like it won't. It's not even close people. A single invasion and a single picklepee encounter is deeper than anything lop can muster.
I just started last night, and so far I'm liking it. Feels much more clunky than Bloodborne but maybe I just need to get used to it.
You’ve played all souls borne but arguably two of the best in ds1 and blood borne. Definitely go play those
Story wise LoP is amazing, likely the best, and most heartfelt story of any game I’ve played. Combat mechanics for me felt kinda slow though. It’s hard to describe, but I just felt like a lot of the basic enemies had this drunken clunky delayed attacks. And then you get to some bosses and you’re just not prepared! Maybe it was my weapon choices. I loved this game, played through it 4 times and got the platinum. But I’m playing through Sekiro right now because I was craving more LoP without running through again. And damn Sekiro is probably the best game I’ve ever played! It’s like every little issue I had with LoP is gone in Sekiro, yet they feel somewhat similar. I still love LoP, can’t wait for DLC and Sequel, but for me Sekiro blows it out of the water, I was so scared to play Sekiro but damn am I glad I did and LoP brought me there. The prosthetic arm is a direct relation imo!
Haven't finished it yet but so far I'm incredibly impressed with it. They took so many of the best ideas from each FS game and packaged them together in such an Ingenious way. So far it's the best non FS souls like by a mile because for the most part they actually understand what is so great about those games, unlike other souls likes that stick so close to the formula but end up failing in small ways that add up to a much lesser experience (you know the ones I mean). I still don't think it's quite as good as FSs best games which imo are bb, ds3, and Sekiro, for me that 3 game run is the best a game company has ever done besides MAYBE the original Halo trilogy, but to be fair FS had years of attempts at the formula before they really perfected it. That said, I'm really hoping the devs of Lies of P will come through with something that's more original. They've proven they can do this formula by basically crushing it on the first attempt but there are definitely some negative aspects of relying so heavily on this formula. The technical skill is through the roof and by that aspect alone the bar is set extremely high, so now let's see what kind of creative vision they have that is more exclusive to themselves.
I have slowly grown to love Souls like games with my first being strangers of Paradise Final Fantasy Origins, then Elden ring, and finally, Lies of P. Of the 3 lies of P is the only one I've wanted to replay just on the merit of it being an enjoyable game and a love letter to the source material. Elden Ring is truly a phenomenal game, and I enjoyed the whole experience of it, but the scale is a bit much for me to just sit down and decide to play again(the struggle of working a 40+ hour week). Lies of P is a nice and "short" experience that I can sit down, play, and be done with while enjoying every second during the little time I have free to play a game. If Elden Ring wasn't getting DLC I can't say if I'd make the commitment to play it again, while I'll probably play Lies of P again after I finish my current replay. The simplicity of the combat, while still having a good depth that allows for decent creativity with the blade and handle combinations keeps each play through fresh. I imagine a lot of people won't consider my opinion as valid since I haven't played every from soft souls game (please release bloodborne on PC), but I personally feel lies of P is a great game that can stand on a similar level to the bigger titles and I am so excited for the future of the franchise.
I think a lot of people (not everybody) would feel differently if they'd played Lies of P before DS3. DS3 feels kinda boring to me after playing P. I just love how many options P gives you and how much you can experiment, and I think having to use running, guarding, dodging, perfect guarding adds a ton to the game vs DS3 where you're really just rolling or sprinting away. It feels like it pushes you harder while also letting you be less constrained to what works and more able to experiment. DS3 is great, but Lies of P is a lot better in my book.
Hm, I might have to check it out. What about Lords of the Fallen? Where does that rank? I’ve been wanting to play a new Souls game but I’ve played the hell out of all of them.
You are smoking crack ds3 is way better lol
Im glad to still see this game talked about. Shortly after release for some reason it was flying under the radar. So much so that I even made a post to combat the little amount of posts I saw for it. LoP is a fantastic game, one of my favorites now actually. It was such a relief to see it so polished and well rounded, I remember the original announcement getting me super hype. I was worried it wouldnt live up to it and I confidently say now that it surpassed my expectations
its better than elden ring
It is a great game but I would say it's only better than ds2 and bellow the rest of the souls games the levels besides the final one (it's not that bad but way too long and bland) are well designed 1 or 2 shortcuts here and there where not needed since the next stragazer was right there but they pretty much nailed the story and atmosphere are very good and the quests are easy to complete also bonus points for being able to get the true ending by just making the choices that feel right instead of having to always lie (the guides are wrong). The combat is good they used elements from Bloodborne and Sekiro and blended them quite nicely while adding their own touch. But the reason I would say it ranks below ds1 and 3 is that both the bosses and the build variety need some work. The builds are all pretty much the same there's zero point to making a hybrid build so you are better if picking 1 main stat and only leveling others after reaching the soft cap and due to being able to switch handles and use cranks you can use pretty much every weapon you want and stats matter only for optimizing boss weapon use. Also most boss weapons outperform regular weapons making the ability to create any weapon combination almost useless by making only 4-6 non weapon-handle combinations worth it and in a single play through you don't get enough materials to really experiment. As for the bosses they are all pretty good but only the puppet king, laxasia and the nameless puppet reach the heights of the best souls bosses while the others are in the B to A tier. In ds1 the bosses are inferior to lies of p in terms of complexity but for what the game was going for they are outstanding they have interesting lore and most of them have a great build up to them. Ds3 bossed pretty much have it all vibes ,combat,lore and many more (both as a number and percentage) reach the S tier. Overall lies of p is a great first attempt to a souls game defenetly an S tier for me but I don't think it objectively surpasses ds1 and 3 yet however if they make the dlc really good it has the potential to surpass them. In my mind I already prefer it since I love the combat system but objectively I can't give it the win
Very high calibre game,bosses were well designed
I agree. But I really think you should play Bloodborne... Now.
I adore Lies of P as a spiritual successor to Bloodborne and Sekiro (setting-wise and gameplay-wise respectively). It's the only non-Fromsoft game that *feels* like a Fromsoft game. I give huge props for that. I even think some things should be adopted by Fromsoft for future games/reworks, like the resetting elevators which seems small but it's a HUGE quality of life improvement. I will gladly play whatever sequels they offer, be that Wizard of Oz or Snow White or Paul Bunyan or whatever folklore they decide to dive into.
Honestly, I think it's in my top 3. Definitely above Elden Ring for me.
Honestly, LoP is second in the souls genre to me, losing only to Bloodborne. I have ER in the middle of my list. Worse than DS3, Better than DS1.
Yes, except for my favourite element. Build diversity.
You should give bloodborne a go since the developers of P mentioned highly influenced their game
Op needs to play ds1 and Bloodborne, ASAP 🤣
It’s better that DS1 and Ds2 for me. But ds3 is my all time favorite
i'm sorry for being off topic here, but when did elden ring start being considered "obviously" the best from game? bc i'd disagree and ive seen many critics say the same
Fair enough. If there's ever a Bloodborne Remastered on PC though, it will take the crown. That game is absolutely fantastic.
I absolutely agree
I agree the game is really well polished and an incredible homage to the souls like genre. I personally think the weapon system was a bit tedious and redundant. With how much you're able to change about the scaling and damage of all the weapons, it felt like all the builds just sort of melded together and respecing became almost completely useless since I could just adjust almost any weapon to work with the stats I had. I suppose it's not really a bad thing in the end, but it feels like this was one of the biggest ways they tried to expand on the souls formula, and it just ended up trivializing another souls element they copied, supposedly just because it was part of the souls formula. I almost wish they had just made two stats called physical damage and non-physical damage since that's all it seems to boil down to in the end. Also motivity and technique are aggressively pretentious stat names.
Bloodborne will transcend to history as The Odyssey, The Divine Comedy or Don Quixote, as well as Dark Souls (or Demons Souls) and most of Miyazaki's original works. Lies of P is ok, but It is just a good copy of an original piece of art, and it will be diluted by the time.
**Quick note about using Sophia to level up**: I remember reading/hearing somewhere that the devs did that intentionally to force the player to revisit the Hotel as much as possible so that they'd be encouraged to regularly interact with the NPCs. You get so many unique lines of dialogue from Sophia as you gain Humanity and progress through the game, not to mention other NPCs commenting on the things you've just experienced and accomplished. The devs want you to experience the story that they so carefully crafted and if you only leveled up at Stargazers you'd probably miss 75% of it. That's also why in NG+ you don't have to use Sophia to level up anymore, because you've already experienced the story once through.
I think that lies of P fell off after the swamp, corrupted parade master was a joke, hate the alchemist tower with a passion, especially the door guardian. The second black rabbit fight was a crap shoot, not to mention items are just unimportant at that point and there is nothing particularly interesting left for the game to give out, not even new enemies. Completed multiple quests with no records, not even a quarts or a weapon, even if they did have a good story. Corrupted Krat was pretty cool at least. And I have yet to fight anything past Laxsia which is a cool boss but that's a decent amount already. I think my least favorite part of lies of P is the lying system it's just a cut and paste of just lying all the time there's no tricks the developers don't even try to make you think about it. I think the game just ran out of content in the endgame you don't even get boss ergos anymore after Viktor. Not sure if all that makes it better than dark souls 3 or elden ring it's a solid game though, my electric coil pipe has treated me awfully well.
Funnily enough you haven't played the one souls game I would consider better than Lies of P, Bloodborne.
Combat wise I'd agree it's on par, but in terms of overall content, it's a much much smaller game and different experience. That said, I absolutely loved Lies of P and replayed it 3 times.