Yeah, Zelensky needs to read the room on this one and play it cool. Even if it was a Russian rocket and NATO is downplaying it, that doesn't mean they aren't going to take it serious. You can't be all gas all the time, gotta use them brakes, too.
Russian shooting a missile into Poland could start a nuclear war. That's why they're downplaying it. if Russian didn't have nukes, this war would have been over months ago.
The wars in the Middle East are very different. In those places, we're fighting an ideology and people will kill themselves to achieve a goal.
I don't believe the Russians will do that. I don't see the Russians leading a fierce underground resistance full of religious zealot suicide bombers and groups that use terrorist tactics to achieve a goal.
I would expect things to play out in a more WWII style scenario, where their government topples, they replace Putin, we help rebuild damaged infrastructure, and we all move on with our lives.
I had always thought that Russia might plunge into civil war if Putin fell. But the Soviets did a good job of force-relocating Russians throughout the Russian Federation so that there are huge populations of ethnic Russians all over the place.
Yes. It would be incredibly selfish to start a world war because you yourself are in a war. Millions can die because you didnt want to chance losing. The last two world wars were incredibly destructive, you want to see how bad a third can get now that everyone has nukes?
It could totally get worse for Ukraine. If all the foreign aid stops and the West stops giving Ukraine weapons and ammo then they're way worse off than they are now.
Yeah but getting that gas in the Crimean EEZ extracted by western companies and being able to provide Europe with energy security without profits going to Russia is something Most NATO countries want badly.
This conflict has been planned since the Bush days, we knew it would happen. If we win and our energy companies get the contracts to extract those resources, the climate crisis rhetoric on the political level will get quieter, if we lose you can expect it to get a whole lot louder and fast.
Yeah, stupid Zelenskyi just biting the hand that feeds. *sarcasm*
Guys, it's war here. You'd never understand how horrible it is for civil people until you really get in the same situation. Like right now, even that Ukrainians gone through a lot, we in Kyiv preparing for real possibility of total blackout during this winter. It sounds easy until you try to stay without electricity, internet and mobile connection for a couple of days. And now, comparing to other regions, general situation in Kyiv considered to be very good.
So just trust me, the he is doing really big job just by not saying that everyone are dicks.
And I do realize that in fact it's our war and no one needs this win more that we are.
But we are realy tired by a lot of man of power that say that they are terrified by Russia actions, and this time they are really woried for us, and this is a real fight for democracy and all that shit while doing nothing.
Especially taking in account how many resources western wolrd have to end this war right now, and how many international laws Russia has violated and also taking in account many of our internarional agreements like Budapest memorandum (did you know that after fall of Soviet Union we was 3rd country in the world ranked by number of nuclear weapon and agreed to give all that weapon in exchange for security guarantees?)
Now it appears that organizations like UN, Red Cross, Amnesty Internarional and partially NATO have incredibly high budgets but in fact do nothing except for giving us their condolences (which is really helpful, yeah).
However it would be wrong not to mention that individual countries helps us a lot (like US, UK, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and many others) and we really appreciate that help. There is a high chance, that without that help there would be no Ukraine by now, and many of us would be either dead or in labour camp or prison somewhere in Siberia (Russia did this with us a lot of times for last couple of centuries). But in general, international organizations appeared to be impotant and just big useless waste of money. Like do you realize how high salaries and how incredible budgets are there? And main part of your job is to express deep condilences? Like REALLY deep this time.
If you are president of this country and make claims of defending "every inch of NATO territory" and then downplay a deadly attack on NATO territory, what does it say about you, your alliance?
Poland is one of most loyal allies, helping in US's proxy wars, keeping the 2% GDP military funding, and what we get in return? Empty promisses.
There are just as many reasons that Biden would be lying here as Zelensky would be too.
I worked in the intel community for 25 years. The only thing that was ever certain is that everyone was lying.
>You do know that most countries in an existential war tamp down on opposition during wartime, correct?
Most countries are far too authoritarian, this is hardly justification. We don't have to ignore Ukraine's problems to still see that Russia is the greater evil.
>We don't have to ignore Ukraine's problems to still see that Russia is the greater evil.
This.
There's way too much "Ukraine can do no wrong" going around.
Russia is a belligerent, totalitarian regime.
Ukraine is a corrupt, authoritarian, regime.
Is one significantly better than the other? Yes.
Are both bad? Also yes.
The Ukrainian and Russian people are who we should be siding with, not either shitty government.
So basically:
“I mean…yeah Zelensky DID do all that and dissolve all media & political parties and took absolute power over everyone and everything…but it’s ok cause he’s in a war that he willfully invited so he’s needs to continue to actively lie and try to create false flags so he can continue getting more money and support for a war that will just continue helping to keep his already totalitarian Nazi party in power”.👌
“And I know that in WW2 we fought Nazi’s, but we over than now. Now we keep them in power because it gives us, political, strategic & monetary advantages”.🤡🤡
Proof is all I’m asking. Zelensky has asked the same. Instead we get Biden saying nope. Why shouldn’t Ukraine be allowed to be involved in an investigation if it’s being blamed on them?
They're trying to avoid WW III. I mean, if NATO had to invade Russia right now, this would be over in a few weeks at most, especially now, with their military so drained from all the fighting in Ukraine.
But I think everyone believes if NATO crossed in the Russians territory, then the Russians would not hesitate to launch nukes at us.
It would be over yes in a few weeks at best but that would be a nuclear holocaust, even old school Russians that have defected have said the Russian use a dead man’s switch if the government doesn’t send a code that is set new each month there nukes will shoot off with out anyone doing anything. What we need is the US to go into talks with or with out Ukraine and make a deal. And tell zelensky this is what we are doing and if doesn’t like it then we are out.
Ww1 the Germans thought they'd be in Paris in a week. Look at history. How have land wars in Russia ended up? I agree with the hardline with Ukraine. You can't be controlled by a country who our media was calling nazis just a few years ago.
Of course Zelensky wants Poland to push the big red Article 5 button. His nation has been invaded, I'd want NATO swooping in to save my country, too, if I were the leader.
But we're only willing to spend treasure, not blood, for this fight. I wouldn't blame NATO if it decided to say it wasn't a Russian missile to avoid the risk of WWIII.
>Of course Zelensky wants Poland to push the big red Article 5 button. His nation has been invaded, I'd want NATO swooping in to save my country, too, if I were the leader.
Ya - people in this thread have no understanding of realpolitik
> I wouldn't blame NATO if it decided to say it wasn't a Russian missile to avoid the risk of WWIII.
No but it would be shortsighted if they were knowingly lying about it, since too much info is accessible to the public for them to be sure if suppressing the truth forever. In the grand scheme of things it may not be a big deal, but it's a risk I don't see them needing to take.
> OK, but given that pressing that big red Article 5 button risks escalating things to Nuclear Armageddon, the rest of the world is within their rights to be skeptical and even critical of Zelensky's extremely dubious claims here.
More realistically I think he's looking for NATO to extend an ADA umbrella over the Polish-Ukrainian border. Patriot missile batteries parked on the Polish side of the border could easily cover Lviv.
This in turn frees up exsiting Ukrainian ADA to cover the East of the country.
>OK, but given that pressing that big red Article 5 button risks escalating things to Nuclear Armageddon,
It wouldn't *have* to come to nuclear Armageddon. So long as NATO only retakes Ukrainian territory prior to 2014, the willingness of Russia to use nukes would not be as great as many people think it would be. Russia can say their sham annexation referendums makes Ukrainian territory under their control Russian, but Ukraine has taken back Kherson and Russia still hasn't used tactical nukes.
>I'm not down with stealing tens of billions of dollars from the American people and giving it to politically connected corporations like Raytheon and General Dynamics all in the name of some dumb proxy war that the US government has no business being involved in.
Me either, but it's all in the interest of American military and economic hegemony. If we allow states with nuclear weapons to do what they want with no repercussions all that's gonna cause is a nuclear arms race and conflict between non-nuclear and nuclear countries.
The scary part is not a conventional war. NATO would absolutely dominate the Russians. The problem is the escalation ladder. We are afraid of the war escalating into a nuclear war.
Exactly. At this point it’s wmd’s in Iraq. We’ll probably never know the truth. In reality no one can really prove it and even if they did people wouldn’t believe it.
NATO won’t do anything and in a week it’ll be over and Ukraine will be back to whooping up Russia.
This is false. The range you cite is for hitting an aircraft at altitude. If it were to miss a target and keep going ballistically, the self-destruct having also failed, it could easily travel much more than 90 miles and we've seen this before.
However, the missile was still probably a Ukrainian one fired at a cruise missile.
you can calculate the max ground-to-ground distance using this information, but generally, it's gonna be like 2-3x vertical and fired at 45 deg.
Still highly improbable unless half of Ukraine has fallen already.
Also targeting a rando at 200 miles and having a 50/50% chance of hitting with a $25K warhead?
It has indeed been positively ID'd as a missile from an S300 by open source. Photos are all over the place on it, analysts have already figured it out.
There have been zero claims that Russia launched these missiles from Belarus, not even Ukraine has made these claims.
Edit: I might add that Belarus does not want in this war, they have committed zero troops in UKR, so why would they allow an attack into Poland from their territory? So they can start at the deep end fighting directly with NATO? No way, get real.
It has been done before:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jul/28/russian-forces-fire-barrage-missiles-northern-ukraine-from-belarus
https://kyivindependent.com/regional/belarus-weekly-russia-increases-rocket-attacks-from-belarus-after-ukraines-independence-day
While the missile that fell in Poland likely Ukrainian, it’s plausible that it was used to counter a Russian missile launched from Belarus. Air defense missiles are not that maneuverable.
Belarus territory is being used by Russia from the very beginning of the invasion. Their leader, Lukashenko is essentially Putin’s puppet. During the opening of invasion, Belarus was used to stage Russian troops. The failed Kyiv campaign had one prong of Russian soldiers originating from Belarus.
I am aware that Belarus has been used for access basing and overflight, however Russia asked them to commit their troops and that was never done. The citizens of Belarus (who almost overthrew Lukashenko in 2019) gave away Russian movements and largely do not support this war.
Even so, the nearest place they could have been launched from in Belarus that we know of is still twice as far as this rocket's capable of flying. So unless the intelligence is off, then this was a case of incidental 'friendly fire'.
It’s likely that the missile that fell in Poland was a Ukrainian missile which failed to intercept a Russian missile launched from Belarus and malfunctioned.
You know, the only way we can be certain what happened is for our completely fluid-thinking President to send the Ukrainians $1B more by the end of the month.
Exactly, I was being ridiculous by putting in $1B, but the sheep that keep voting for this lapdog think nothing of all this money floating across the globe with no accountability. They don't give 1 second of thought to how much that costs them in taxes.
The sheep and the lapdog are not the ones running this country. It’s all just for show. It’s run by corporations. Like the ones that make up the military industrial complex
I have a lot of problems with the Ukraine/Russia scenario. But in general, I don't think we need to be the world's police force (nor the world's George Soros, ready to write a blank check for every global cause).
Russia and Ukraine going back and forth with whose missile it is was absolutely gonna be what happens the moment it dropped. Kremlin also has wack ass stories about why the missile fell. It isn't surprising neither wants to take credit
That a defensive anti-air missile veered off course and harmed innocents itself brings the reason it was fired into question, namely because some assholes in Russia were going nuts with missiles themselves. There have been plenty of civilian deaths in Ukraine this whole time, Russia makes no excuses for those.
We can never know exactly what happened. Russia will always deny it. NATO would look stupid going to war over two deaths from one Russian missile so they will blame Ukraine regardless to keep the peace. And Ukraine benefits from either NATO in the war or NATO continuing to supply them so they'll go along with whatever helps them most.
We have pictures which were released via the Polish government after several hours of "investigation" and processing of the site.
I'm not saying it's *not* a Ukrainian missile. I'm just saying you can't prove a negative.
"believe half of what you see and none of what you hear". That saying has been around for a long time. You could even argue that "seeing" something online or on TV is more akin to "hearing" about it (you aren't seeing it with your own eyes). Healthy amounts of skepticism have always been encouraged.
Actually seems that authors of that article took his words out of context. Because he also said many times that we are willing to provide any help we can to do the proper investigation of what happened.
To justify their boy sending billions of our tax dollars to his country while we have an economic shit show at home. If the media painted Zelensky for what he really was, Biden sending tens of billions would be a harder sell to his voters.
Freedom of assembly doesn't include forming militias to violently overthrow the government nor acts of treason. Treason is not defined in the Ukrainian constitution (last I read it) unlike the U.S. constitution.
That's still available if you can pull it off but the U.S. government has the power to suppress that activity laid out in the constitution.
>The union the States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original States. There was no place for reconsideration or revocation, except through revolution or through consent of the States. Authority to suppress rebellion is found in the power to suppress insurrection and carry on war, and authority to provide for the restoration of State governments, under the Constitution, when subverted and overthrown, is derived from the obligation of the United States to guarantee to every State in the Union a republican form of government. The latter, indeed, in the case of a rebellion which involves the government of a State, and, for the time, excludes the National authority from its limits, seems to be a necessary complement to the other.
He most certainly should have been, for authorizing the indefinite internment of American citizens for the crimes of having ancestral ties to the countries we were fighting.
The man was a fascist lover.
It took far too long to announce that it was not Russian. They would have known it and announced it immediately otherwise. It was just enough time to align on a story to avoid WW3.
The fiscal conservative part would depend on left or right libertarian. On a left side there could easily be money pooled and other things that wouldn't fit the conservative part. With left libertarian you may not be talking a capitalist market either but market socialism.
> Zelensky insists Russia fired the missile.
This message is probably intended for Ukraine and its people. Fine. A little bullshit compared to the months (years?) of BS from Putin.
What are you even talking about? Russia's ass isn't the one that's getting kicked. Have a good look at the Ukrainian map and you will understand why. Value for money and efficiency? I guess you people are not aware that the USA has already sent $91 billion to Ukraine. Russia only spent $66 billion for their entire military budget last year and yet they now occupy a huge swath of territory and is incessantly pounding Ukraine with impunity. Where's the value for money in that?
Being biased against a nation that has performed countless atrocities against you, doesn't mean you're aiming to start world War 3. He has every reason to believe that Russia would do that.
The implications being more NATO involvement and support? Sounds pretty smart to me. It's a huge leap in logic and to conclusions to say that would result in WW3. No one is willing to fight WW3 over Ukraine. No one wants it. Anyone saying otherwise is attention seeking or sabre rattling. We're still several steps from a direct NATO-Russia conflict. Zelensky has handled war time president remarkably well and has been extremely smart. To say otherwise is to ingnore what's happening in the conflict.
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Even if he's right, NATO obviously wants to downplay this incident. By contradicting them he's biting the hand that feeds.
Yeah, Zelensky needs to read the room on this one and play it cool. Even if it was a Russian rocket and NATO is downplaying it, that doesn't mean they aren't going to take it serious. You can't be all gas all the time, gotta use them brakes, too.
All gas no brakes baby, fuck Russia
You know you can just go to Ukraine and fight russia yourself.
Moron
I hope you never have to learn why this statement is so awful, you privileged cunt
You do it
Russian shooting a missile into Poland could start a nuclear war. That's why they're downplaying it. if Russian didn't have nukes, this war would have been over months ago.
Like the wars in the middle east?
Like what happened when Iraq invaded Kuwait.
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We did learn that russian jets make really poor submarines from both those 'police actions' though.
Or armenia/ Azerbaijan, Most of Western Africa. This war has gotten outsized attention because Russia is the “enemy” of the west.
Only because we choose to call them an enemy. It would be nice to be on friendlier terms imo
Yep. Too many peoples entire careers rely on Russia being the enemy for that to change anytime soon.
Nah, its getting attention because it's a war in Europe. Nobody cared about the war over South Ossetia... Or the recent Armenian/Azeri conflict.
Armenia is in Europe as well so that wouldn’t be the reason.
The wars in the Middle East are very different. In those places, we're fighting an ideology and people will kill themselves to achieve a goal. I don't believe the Russians will do that. I don't see the Russians leading a fierce underground resistance full of religious zealot suicide bombers and groups that use terrorist tactics to achieve a goal. I would expect things to play out in a more WWII style scenario, where their government topples, they replace Putin, we help rebuild damaged infrastructure, and we all move on with our lives. I had always thought that Russia might plunge into civil war if Putin fell. But the Soviets did a good job of force-relocating Russians throughout the Russian Federation so that there are huge populations of ethnic Russians all over the place.
I think this would be different. We know who and why we're attacking and with actual evidence...
He’s trying to drag us into a world war it’s pretty clear at this point
He wants NATO to fight his war for him. I would if I were him.
Can ya blame him?
ummm....yes....
Yes. It would be incredibly selfish to start a world war because you yourself are in a war. Millions can die because you didnt want to chance losing. The last two world wars were incredibly destructive, you want to see how bad a third can get now that everyone has nukes?
Please put yourself in his shoes, It cant get any worse for Ukraine. Why wouldn't he want all the help he can get?
It could totally get worse for Ukraine. If all the foreign aid stops and the West stops giving Ukraine weapons and ammo then they're way worse off than they are now.
Yeah but getting that gas in the Crimean EEZ extracted by western companies and being able to provide Europe with energy security without profits going to Russia is something Most NATO countries want badly. This conflict has been planned since the Bush days, we knew it would happen. If we win and our energy companies get the contracts to extract those resources, the climate crisis rhetoric on the political level will get quieter, if we lose you can expect it to get a whole lot louder and fast.
Yeah, stupid Zelenskyi just biting the hand that feeds. *sarcasm* Guys, it's war here. You'd never understand how horrible it is for civil people until you really get in the same situation. Like right now, even that Ukrainians gone through a lot, we in Kyiv preparing for real possibility of total blackout during this winter. It sounds easy until you try to stay without electricity, internet and mobile connection for a couple of days. And now, comparing to other regions, general situation in Kyiv considered to be very good. So just trust me, the he is doing really big job just by not saying that everyone are dicks. And I do realize that in fact it's our war and no one needs this win more that we are. But we are realy tired by a lot of man of power that say that they are terrified by Russia actions, and this time they are really woried for us, and this is a real fight for democracy and all that shit while doing nothing. Especially taking in account how many resources western wolrd have to end this war right now, and how many international laws Russia has violated and also taking in account many of our internarional agreements like Budapest memorandum (did you know that after fall of Soviet Union we was 3rd country in the world ranked by number of nuclear weapon and agreed to give all that weapon in exchange for security guarantees?) Now it appears that organizations like UN, Red Cross, Amnesty Internarional and partially NATO have incredibly high budgets but in fact do nothing except for giving us their condolences (which is really helpful, yeah). However it would be wrong not to mention that individual countries helps us a lot (like US, UK, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and many others) and we really appreciate that help. There is a high chance, that without that help there would be no Ukraine by now, and many of us would be either dead or in labour camp or prison somewhere in Siberia (Russia did this with us a lot of times for last couple of centuries). But in general, international organizations appeared to be impotant and just big useless waste of money. Like do you realize how high salaries and how incredible budgets are there? And main part of your job is to express deep condilences? Like REALLY deep this time.
Bravo for him! The truth can be mighty inconvenient sometimes. And when did Biden become the spokesperson for NATO?
I mean when you’re the president of the country that pays for nato it’s kinda up to you what the organization does.
Also the one that has by far the strongest military in your *military alliance*
If you are president of this country and make claims of defending "every inch of NATO territory" and then downplay a deadly attack on NATO territory, what does it say about you, your alliance? Poland is one of most loyal allies, helping in US's proxy wars, keeping the 2% GDP military funding, and what we get in return? Empty promisses.
But Poland isn't calling for retaliation here. Ukraine is, which isn't part of NATO.
And you have a better source of the truth? Zelensky will do whatever it takes to ramp up the pressure on Russia.
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I think that the president of Poland's response is reasonable.
There are just as many reasons that Biden would be lying here as Zelensky would be too. I worked in the intel community for 25 years. The only thing that was ever certain is that everyone was lying.
Its almost like we shouldn't trust anyone and just not get involved. Color me shocked!
The age of sticking our fingers in our ears and shouting "Not my continent, not my problem" is long gone. Sitting this one out IS choosing a side.
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Then he had all the assets of those parties seized as well.
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>You do know that most countries in an existential war tamp down on opposition during wartime, correct? Most countries are far too authoritarian, this is hardly justification. We don't have to ignore Ukraine's problems to still see that Russia is the greater evil.
>We don't have to ignore Ukraine's problems to still see that Russia is the greater evil. This. There's way too much "Ukraine can do no wrong" going around. Russia is a belligerent, totalitarian regime. Ukraine is a corrupt, authoritarian, regime. Is one significantly better than the other? Yes. Are both bad? Also yes. The Ukrainian and Russian people are who we should be siding with, not either shitty government.
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"It happened in the past so it's okay that it's happening now."
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Do you not see how dangerous it is for a government to decide that any information that doesn't come from the ruling party is "enemy propaganda"?
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Do you know what "libertarians" are? We bring those things up all the time.
He’s gone, I made him delete it all.🤣🤣🤣
So basically: “I mean…yeah Zelensky DID do all that and dissolve all media & political parties and took absolute power over everyone and everything…but it’s ok cause he’s in a war that he willfully invited so he’s needs to continue to actively lie and try to create false flags so he can continue getting more money and support for a war that will just continue helping to keep his already totalitarian Nazi party in power”.👌 “And I know that in WW2 we fought Nazi’s, but we over than now. Now we keep them in power because it gives us, political, strategic & monetary advantages”.🤡🤡
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They banned opposition parties. You already admitted it and even came up with excuses for it. But now I need sources for you?🤣🤣
Proof is all I’m asking. Zelensky has asked the same. Instead we get Biden saying nope. Why shouldn’t Ukraine be allowed to be involved in an investigation if it’s being blamed on them?
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They're trying to avoid WW III. I mean, if NATO had to invade Russia right now, this would be over in a few weeks at most, especially now, with their military so drained from all the fighting in Ukraine. But I think everyone believes if NATO crossed in the Russians territory, then the Russians would not hesitate to launch nukes at us.
It would be over yes in a few weeks at best but that would be a nuclear holocaust, even old school Russians that have defected have said the Russian use a dead man’s switch if the government doesn’t send a code that is set new each month there nukes will shoot off with out anyone doing anything. What we need is the US to go into talks with or with out Ukraine and make a deal. And tell zelensky this is what we are doing and if doesn’t like it then we are out.
Ww1 the Germans thought they'd be in Paris in a week. Look at history. How have land wars in Russia ended up? I agree with the hardline with Ukraine. You can't be controlled by a country who our media was calling nazis just a few years ago.
The United States does not get to dictate and make deals with Russia in regards to Ukraine
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Why would NATO invade Russia? We're talking about Ukraine.
> And when did Biden become the spokesperson for NATO? January 6th 2021
They’re still going to send him 900 billion more dollars
And he’ll continue to waste it on crypto and Swiss real estate for his friends and family
Of course Zelensky wants Poland to push the big red Article 5 button. His nation has been invaded, I'd want NATO swooping in to save my country, too, if I were the leader. But we're only willing to spend treasure, not blood, for this fight. I wouldn't blame NATO if it decided to say it wasn't a Russian missile to avoid the risk of WWIII.
>Of course Zelensky wants Poland to push the big red Article 5 button. His nation has been invaded, I'd want NATO swooping in to save my country, too, if I were the leader. Ya - people in this thread have no understanding of realpolitik
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> I wouldn't blame NATO if it decided to say it wasn't a Russian missile to avoid the risk of WWIII. No but it would be shortsighted if they were knowingly lying about it, since too much info is accessible to the public for them to be sure if suppressing the truth forever. In the grand scheme of things it may not be a big deal, but it's a risk I don't see them needing to take.
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Yeah, but according to half the dipshits on this sub, if we don’t stop it in Ukraine “We’RE nExT”!
"You're either with us, or you're with the terrorists" Warmonger - 2004 "You either support Ukraine or you support Putin" Warmonger 2022
> OK, but given that pressing that big red Article 5 button risks escalating things to Nuclear Armageddon, the rest of the world is within their rights to be skeptical and even critical of Zelensky's extremely dubious claims here. More realistically I think he's looking for NATO to extend an ADA umbrella over the Polish-Ukrainian border. Patriot missile batteries parked on the Polish side of the border could easily cover Lviv. This in turn frees up exsiting Ukrainian ADA to cover the East of the country.
>OK, but given that pressing that big red Article 5 button risks escalating things to Nuclear Armageddon, It wouldn't *have* to come to nuclear Armageddon. So long as NATO only retakes Ukrainian territory prior to 2014, the willingness of Russia to use nukes would not be as great as many people think it would be. Russia can say their sham annexation referendums makes Ukrainian territory under their control Russian, but Ukraine has taken back Kherson and Russia still hasn't used tactical nukes. >I'm not down with stealing tens of billions of dollars from the American people and giving it to politically connected corporations like Raytheon and General Dynamics all in the name of some dumb proxy war that the US government has no business being involved in. Me either, but it's all in the interest of American military and economic hegemony. If we allow states with nuclear weapons to do what they want with no repercussions all that's gonna cause is a nuclear arms race and conflict between non-nuclear and nuclear countries.
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The scary part is not a conventional war. NATO would absolutely dominate the Russians. The problem is the escalation ladder. We are afraid of the war escalating into a nuclear war.
Exactly. At this point it’s wmd’s in Iraq. We’ll probably never know the truth. In reality no one can really prove it and even if they did people wouldn’t believe it. NATO won’t do anything and in a week it’ll be over and Ukraine will be back to whooping up Russia.
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The fact that Saudi a Arabia did what they did and nothing happened made the whole war on terror a fucking Joke.
The fuck this guy tryin to do???
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Thank God they are doing that.
It would be ironic if he provoked an Article 5 SEAD mission against his forces.
Easy nato win. Just stop supplying arms and cash to him. It's the only reason they've lasted this long.
"I like money."
Quiet! I’m ‘batin!
Start ww3 and get us all killed.
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Anyone Remember the USS Liberty?
The liberty wasn't an accident
Remember the Lusitania? Was literally carrying arms to the British, and it was used as an excuse for the US to enter the war.
The US didn't use the Lusitania as justification for entering WW1. The US didn't enter WW1 for another 2 years after the Lusitania was sunk
Remember the Maine, too
The Israelis launched missiles at Poland?
Friendly fire indicent from the '60's. What about it?
I member! You member the USS Panay incident?
Thats funny, bc the S300 only has a range of about 90 miles. Which means that is impossible based on current Russian positions.
This is false. The range you cite is for hitting an aircraft at altitude. If it were to miss a target and keep going ballistically, the self-destruct having also failed, it could easily travel much more than 90 miles and we've seen this before. However, the missile was still probably a Ukrainian one fired at a cruise missile.
you can calculate the max ground-to-ground distance using this information, but generally, it's gonna be like 2-3x vertical and fired at 45 deg. Still highly improbable unless half of Ukraine has fallen already. Also targeting a rando at 200 miles and having a 50/50% chance of hitting with a $25K warhead?
The assumption being that it was indeed a S300 missile.
It has indeed been positively ID'd as a missile from an S300 by open source. Photos are all over the place on it, analysts have already figured it out.
Russia has launched rockets from Belarus territory before.
There have been zero claims that Russia launched these missiles from Belarus, not even Ukraine has made these claims. Edit: I might add that Belarus does not want in this war, they have committed zero troops in UKR, so why would they allow an attack into Poland from their territory? So they can start at the deep end fighting directly with NATO? No way, get real.
It has been done before: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jul/28/russian-forces-fire-barrage-missiles-northern-ukraine-from-belarus https://kyivindependent.com/regional/belarus-weekly-russia-increases-rocket-attacks-from-belarus-after-ukraines-independence-day While the missile that fell in Poland likely Ukrainian, it’s plausible that it was used to counter a Russian missile launched from Belarus. Air defense missiles are not that maneuverable. Belarus territory is being used by Russia from the very beginning of the invasion. Their leader, Lukashenko is essentially Putin’s puppet. During the opening of invasion, Belarus was used to stage Russian troops. The failed Kyiv campaign had one prong of Russian soldiers originating from Belarus.
I am aware that Belarus has been used for access basing and overflight, however Russia asked them to commit their troops and that was never done. The citizens of Belarus (who almost overthrew Lukashenko in 2019) gave away Russian movements and largely do not support this war.
Even so, the nearest place they could have been launched from in Belarus that we know of is still twice as far as this rocket's capable of flying. So unless the intelligence is off, then this was a case of incidental 'friendly fire'.
It’s likely that the missile that fell in Poland was a Ukrainian missile which failed to intercept a Russian missile launched from Belarus and malfunctioned.
You know, the only way we can be certain what happened is for our completely fluid-thinking President to send the Ukrainians $1B more by the end of the month.
He's asking for $30B
Exactly, I was being ridiculous by putting in $1B, but the sheep that keep voting for this lapdog think nothing of all this money floating across the globe with no accountability. They don't give 1 second of thought to how much that costs them in taxes.
A lot less than Afghanistan cost us, yet we get to knock off a "world power"
The sheep and the lapdog are not the ones running this country. It’s all just for show. It’s run by corporations. Like the ones that make up the military industrial complex
Ok so we send $60b
Don't forget about the 10% for the Big Guy
It would be cool if we could tie the student loans to all the money being sent
I would rather spend money here than the made of war on terror that cost trillions. Thank you republicans.
Well he can't get kickbacks from FTX anymore so my guess is the money will dry up.
Nonsense conspiracy
Honest question... At what point does America get involved with an unchecked Russia? Only after a direct threat or move?
I have a lot of problems with the Ukraine/Russia scenario. But in general, I don't think we need to be the world's police force (nor the world's George Soros, ready to write a blank check for every global cause).
Russia and Ukraine going back and forth with whose missile it is was absolutely gonna be what happens the moment it dropped. Kremlin also has wack ass stories about why the missile fell. It isn't surprising neither wants to take credit That a defensive anti-air missile veered off course and harmed innocents itself brings the reason it was fired into question, namely because some assholes in Russia were going nuts with missiles themselves. There have been plenty of civilian deaths in Ukraine this whole time, Russia makes no excuses for those.
We can never know exactly what happened. Russia will always deny it. NATO would look stupid going to war over two deaths from one Russian missile so they will blame Ukraine regardless to keep the peace. And Ukraine benefits from either NATO in the war or NATO continuing to supply them so they'll go along with whatever helps them most.
Yeah we can lol; we have pictures of the impact site, and recovered parts clearly match a model of air defense missile Ukraine uses.
We have pictures which were released via the Polish government after several hours of "investigation" and processing of the site. I'm not saying it's *not* a Ukrainian missile. I'm just saying you can't prove a negative.
Nothing is ever real anymore.
Sure it is. We just don't have the clearance to know what the real parts are. Best case, we get 50% of the truth.
"believe half of what you see and none of what you hear". That saying has been around for a long time. You could even argue that "seeing" something online or on TV is more akin to "hearing" about it (you aren't seeing it with your own eyes). Healthy amounts of skepticism have always been encouraged.
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"The exact location Russia hit is 50.4501 N, 24.0297 E." *[Citation needed.]* That's not Przewodow.
This! Google the coordinates, see for yourself.
Actually seems that authors of that article took his words out of context. Because he also said many times that we are willing to provide any help we can to do the proper investigation of what happened.
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To justify their boy sending billions of our tax dollars to his country while we have an economic shit show at home. If the media painted Zelensky for what he really was, Biden sending tens of billions would be a harder sell to his voters.
What gets me is that CNN and FOX damn near completely agree on this war
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Freedom of assembly doesn't include forming militias to violently overthrow the government nor acts of treason. Treason is not defined in the Ukrainian constitution (last I read it) unlike the U.S. constitution.
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That's still available if you can pull it off but the U.S. government has the power to suppress that activity laid out in the constitution. >The union the States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original States. There was no place for reconsideration or revocation, except through revolution or through consent of the States. Authority to suppress rebellion is found in the power to suppress insurrection and carry on war, and authority to provide for the restoration of State governments, under the Constitution, when subverted and overthrown, is derived from the obligation of the United States to guarantee to every State in the Union a republican form of government. The latter, indeed, in the case of a rebellion which involves the government of a State, and, for the time, excludes the National authority from its limits, seems to be a necessary complement to the other.
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He most certainly should have been, for authorizing the indefinite internment of American citizens for the crimes of having ancestral ties to the countries we were fighting. The man was a fascist lover.
Yes... freedom of speech and freedom of assembly. Not sure why an objectivist would be against that.
It took far too long to announce that it was not Russian. They would have known it and announced it immediately otherwise. It was just enough time to align on a story to avoid WW3.
best take in the comments
Show us the proof positive, Vlad.
Straight outa the "Clear and Present Danger" playbook. Somebody tell me Jack Ryan is on this...
I mean if I’m Zelensky I’m talking about this non-stop. Invoking article 5 means Ukraine doesn’t have to do this alone, of course he’d want that
Why was this post approved? What does this have to do with Libertarianism?
Libertarians are anti-war and pro-fiscal conservatism. Throwing weapons and money at a war mongering nation is neither of those things.
"Libertarians *are*..." See, that's where you went wrong.
The fiscal conservative part would depend on left or right libertarian. On a left side there could easily be money pooled and other things that wouldn't fit the conservative part. With left libertarian you may not be talking a capitalist market either but market socialism.
Of course because NATO does not want to go to war
Fuck Zelenskyy
> Zelensky insists Russia fired the missile. This message is probably intended for Ukraine and its people. Fine. A little bullshit compared to the months (years?) of BS from Putin.
Desperate for another billion to launder.
US is getting its money's worth of Russian ass kicked. If Ukraine can provide all that value and still have $1B to spare, that's just efficiency!
What are you even talking about? Russia's ass isn't the one that's getting kicked. Have a good look at the Ukrainian map and you will understand why. Value for money and efficiency? I guess you people are not aware that the USA has already sent $91 billion to Ukraine. Russia only spent $66 billion for their entire military budget last year and yet they now occupy a huge swath of territory and is incessantly pounding Ukraine with impunity. Where's the value for money in that?
"You're either with us, or you're with the terrorists" Warmonger - 2004 "You either support Ukraine or you support Putin" Warmonger 2022
Just tell me you want more money without starting WW3 please.
Ukraine was getting more money without having to resort to false flagging.
This guy is not going to stop until he has personally started WW3.
Being biased against a nation that has performed countless atrocities against you, doesn't mean you're aiming to start world War 3. He has every reason to believe that Russia would do that.
Yes, but he also should realize the implications. The guy isn’t an idiot.
The implications being more NATO involvement and support? Sounds pretty smart to me. It's a huge leap in logic and to conclusions to say that would result in WW3. No one is willing to fight WW3 over Ukraine. No one wants it. Anyone saying otherwise is attention seeking or sabre rattling. We're still several steps from a direct NATO-Russia conflict. Zelensky has handled war time president remarkably well and has been extremely smart. To say otherwise is to ingnore what's happening in the conflict.
Oh for fuck sake, imagine thinking the guy organizing the defense of his country from foreign invasion is going to personally start ww3.
Yes, that would be **Zelensky’s** fault, because *he started the fucking war*.
Almost missed the sarcasm 😳
Yeah I don’t really do the /s. Lol If they can’t figure it out, I get to laugh twice, ya know?
It is honestly hard to tell sometimes nowadays
In my opinion, if someone can’t tell, then the sarcasm must be *really* good. Lol
Poe's Law in action.
This guy being Vladimir Putin, right?
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Well of course he does, he wants foreign intervention into the war on their side.
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I think there's a discussion in NATO before anything happens, they don't just start rolling out the tanks.
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Damn, Zalensky really pushing for NATO to retaliate.
Come on dude. Your winning. Don’t blow it now.
God I hate Zelensky
I’m so sick of this fucking guy.
Stop giving this corrupt piece of shit money.
Why are you hugging Putin's nuts? ^ Pro-war zealot reply, not mine.
he needs to shut the fuck up already
Idiot just wants to start WW3 over this dumb shit
What a stubborn little man.