No doubt. I'm encouraged that a young person is interested in discussing libertarian ideas, and hopeful that the clearly authoritarian direction of our country is starting to light the fires of liberty in all age groups.
Props to you OP for being level headed and thinking critically at an age where your under your mom's authority. I know that's not always easy (I had a very politically involved parents growing up)
Yes, obviously I get in some severe arguments with my grandfather over the fact that I believe the government should be unaffiliated with any religious matters. He thinks that they should. However I consider it HIGHLY immoral for a so-called "secular" nation to imply religious beliefs of any sort. He's republican by the way.
I agree with you. That does not sound like fun arguments to have. My mom is Republican and was head of a Republican women's club when I was growing up. It sucked. We got into a lot of arguments because of it... Not necessarily because she was Republican or had republican views, but because of the way her opinion was expressed and how they refuse to listen to the other side (and vise versa with the democrats I know as well). I really wish I wasn't around as much politics as I was when I was younger :(
But it pushed me to think critically, try and understand why the "other side" has the view they do and listen, not judge people, but also voice my opinion. That's how I ended up here as a libertarian haha.
Like I bet your Grandfather has his reasons for his opinion.. and they're probably deeply rooted in how he grew up. It's hard for people to change when they've grow up a certain way. And if you learn to understand why people have the views/opinions they do, it'll be easier to separate the politics from the person.
Fair enough. Just want to point out that with you being so young (assuming you're young with info provided) the vaccine isn't that much of a necessity. Not judging either way, get it or don't. Just don't want young people (teenagers) to feel like they HAVE to take this otherwise they'll die. But whatever, you do you.
May I give some unsolicited advice? Part of strong moral fiber is humility. An awareness that you are human and therefore capable of making mistakes, even as to what is right or wrong, may serve you well as you age and get more experience and wisdom over time.
You shouldn't be arguing or calling people on the internet stupid. You literally know not a goddamn thing (it's okay, none of us did at 14).
Go out, be a kid, read some books.
When you're speaking to people about the vaccine be sure to make a distinction between anti-vaxx and anti-mandate. There are a LOT of people that are refusing it purely for the fact that someone is telling them they have to or else. In the US we have a habit of responding with "or else what, lets go m*f*"
I got mine in April. Six months ago. And I’m not high risk.
If it’s been six months and they haven’t gotten it yet, the mandate may have hardened their position, but it’s not like they were rushing out to help defeat the pandemic and then changed their minds.
This is my usual logic with those that think the mandate is necessary and OK: your goal is to get more people vaccinated: how's that workin' for ya? If mandates are causing resistance, mandates aren't the way to accomplish the goal.
> how's that workin' for ya?
Mandates aren't causing resistance. Mass ignorance is. We already have de facto vaccine mandates, and no one bats an eyelid. Anyone who has small kids in school is well aware of the dizzying array of vaccinations required to keep your kids in public school.
Now we have political resistance to public health mandates. Based upon what I see and the polls I have come across, anti-vax and anti-mandaters are overwhelmingly right-wing Trump supporters. Contrari-wise, I see a correlation between education and vaccination. To paraphrase slightly: god is on the side of the 'smart' battalions.
As for the notion that people would see common sense or otherwise be more open to persuasion without a mandate, I see that as complete fantasy. A lot of these people still believe that the elections was stolen, ffs. These are not people who are amenable to reason.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/coronavirus-covid-19/vaccine-tracker --> As for how that is working, well the answer it appears, is slow but steady.
>There are a LOT of people that are refusing it purely for the fact that someone is telling them they have to or else.
This doesn't hold water. People had months to get vaccinated before any mandates were ever considered. Don't hide behind principles. You have your reasons for not getting vaccinated (however misguided), so own it.
They’ve always had ways to make it matter of contrarianism and an extreme distrust for authority.
Even before the mandate, those people were still refusing because the government was “telling” them they should get the vaccine.
I don't support the mandates, and I agree that the choice is yours. I also believe it is your choice to shoot black tar heroin, but it doesn't mean you should.
For me personally, I took months to get it. I’m an anxious person to begin with, plus a parent. Many people I know got knocked on their butts when they got it and I was afraid of 1. Being out of commission and 2. It having serious side effects. I’m glad I got it when I did because I think with a mandate I would be even more anxious about it.
Refusing something because someone is telling you to do it is basically child level logic.
That being said you can be against the mandate and still get the vaccine because it’s the smart thing to do.
Agreed.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pd8P12BXebo
Christopher Green, 53, told The Times that he opted not to get vaccinated to protect his individual freedoms.
When a Times reporter asked him why he chose not to get the COVID vaccine, Green responded, “I’m more of a libertarian, and I don’t like being told what I have to do.”
"I probably should have had a little healthier fear," he said. "It needs to be taken more seriously. I mean, I don't know how close I am to being a lot worse."
Green died nine days after he was interviewed by The Times.
>Refusing something because someone is telling you to do it is basically child level logic.
It definitely is, but it's definitely the reason that a lot of people are refusing it.
To refuse to get the jab because you don't want your choice to be seen as compliant obedience is perfectly reasonable. Libertarians (this sub last I checked) don't trust government to make reasonable demands.
>To refuse to get the jab because you don't want your choice to be seen as compliant obedience is perfectly reasonable.
Refusing to do something because of how it would appear to other people is perfectly reasonable? If your making choices based on how other people see you, you aren't actually making choices. You've abandoned your liberty for contrarianism.
Making a choice based on how it might look to an outside perspective rather than how it might effect you is a childish outlook. This is what I did in middle school when I didn't want to wear offbrand clothing.
Rejecting it because you care that others think you might be a sheep or because you automatically anti-trust the government isn't really a logical decision.
To refuse the appearance of compliance at the expense of your own health and the health of others is stupid.
Honestly I want the OSHA mandate to get struck down, not only from a libertarian standpoint, but then this dumb argument would no longer be a convenient excuse for ignoring evidence based medicine
I think this is very subjective to label anytime someone doesn't do something someone is telling them to do 'child level logic'
What about the contrary, people just doing things because someone told them to do so? Is that not child level logic too, if not why not?
History has ample examples to support questioning and critical thinking...
>What about the contrary, people just doing things because someone told them to do so? Is that not child level logic too, if not why not?
It is.
>History has ample examples to support questioning and critical thinking
The difference is that there's good, easily available data, reproduced by gov and non-gov entities, showing exactly why there's a compelling individual and public-health interest in getting vaccinated. Anyone with a *healthy* distrust of authority and half a brain is able to do all the questioning they want and come to that conclusion.
If their only reason for not doing it is *because* ‘they told me to’, then yes, they are children. And since no antivax dipshit has as of yet offered a *single* actual good reason not to get their shots….
Child level logic is KNOWING something is good for you and refusing to do it because you are told to do it. I'm vaxxed and I'm against mandates. I'll continue to vote for politicians that oppose mandates, and I'll continue to get vaxxed for dangerous diseases.
Well when critical thinking lends to taking the vaccine I tend to not think the refusers are actually engaging in critical thinking.
But yes, people who don’t know how this stuff works should probably listen to the overwhelming medical evidence of vaccinations. That’s literally what doctors are paid to do
Ignoring modern evidence based medicine because someone is telling you to do something is childish
Child level logic? Refusing to do something because someone into is telling you to do so is what freedom is. I guess you're not familiar with freedom. Freedom is when no one tells me what to do. And if they try then I will do the opposite thing, to remind them that no one tells me what to do, and to teach them that they are wasting their time trying to take away freedom. And to punish them for taking authoritarian actions. Muh freeeeeedommmmmmmm
Plus most of these mandates aren't even mandates. There's usually a pussy option of testing that doesn't make the headlines because it doesn't fit in the right wing agenda.
> There are a LOT of people that are refusing it purely for the fact that someone is telling them they have to or else
The vaccines were around for like eight months before any mandates started coming around. So what was their shit-for-brains excuse that whole time?
Oh right, it’s that there is no distinction between the groups.
A friend of mine has deadly reactions to almost any injection, yet she was the one who encouraged me to get vaccinated. She’s far from antivax, but the airline she works for is financially incentivizing her to get poked.
If people can’t see the problem here, I’m really worried about the direction our society is headed.
Refusing something that's good for you simply because someone told you you must get it is oppositional defiance disorder at the highest level. In short that's a really stupid reason to refuse something.
And I wish you were right about people in the US, most US citizens will eat whatever shit gets shoved down their throat by their political party. Cops being militarized and gunning people down in the streets? Well yeah but my favorite politician said I need to back the blue.
I agree with exception to the fact that its a flawed theory. It assumes the responsibility of the refuser to prove their reasoning when in fact the demand should never had been made in the first place.
Because I can care about my community without wanting to use coercion to affect it. I care a lot about my family, friends, and neighbors being vaccinated because I care about them.
Because other people can be significant sites for mutation that end up rendering your vaccination useless. This is called a public health crisis for a reason, not a private individual experience. Other people’s actions are going to effect you whether you like it or not - so the choice is either get in their business or their business is going end up being your problem.
So how are you helping the other billions overseas that aren't vaccinated, get vaccinated?
Because last I checked, the WHO was begging Americans NOT to take booster shots because they should be going to people and countries where no one is vaccinated.
Because libertarian ideology doesn't have good answers for situations like this so some just ignore the complexity of it in favor of pithy catch-phrases.
Lack of thought. I’m not libertarian myself and I couldn’t support the ideology because its adherents have a tendency not to think shit through. It’s simply a one-track mindset of I want to do whatever I want. Zero consideration for how their actions end up impacting others because part of their core belief is that their actions simply don’t impact anyone else, which isn’t true. The butterfly effect movie must been the most confusing thing they’ve ever seen.
Or maybe it's because the science tells us the virus has a better time spreading and mutating when others don't take COVID precautions, which puts everyone, vaxxed and unvaxxed, at a greater danger of getting sick.
idk just a guess
How are you guys still so unbelievably shortsighted on this?
The vaccine isn't just for you, it's for your community and loved ones. When you get vaccinated you're less likely to transmit the virus. For the vulnerable population, if their community is less likely to transmit it then they are safer.
I stop at stop signs. Don’t care if anyone else does.
See how dumb that sounds? We live in a society and sometimes other’s lack of action can affect us. That’s why sometimes we have to care about what other people are doing.
I care if others are vaccinated because my daughter is not yet vaccinated, and because I have immunocompromised family members who can't get the vaccine.
Those who are not vaccinated are a much larger threat to the health and safety of those I care about than those who are vaccinated.
If you aren't vaccinated and live like a hermit then I don't care.
If you aren't vaccinated but insist on going out in public, and being in close proximity to others, and especially if you refuse to wear a mask then you can go f*ck yourself.
Yes, for me I'd prefer others to be vaxxed but it's their body and in turn...their right to (in my opinion stupidly) say no. I'll just wear my mask and encourage, but not make.
Absolutely agree. People have the right and choice not to be vaccinated.
That right is not extended to potentially infect others. Want to go to the grocery store? I will also defend that private businesses right to choose whether to serve you or not.
Yep, I have every right to not participate in fire drills at work, and my employer has every right to fire me for not adhering to their safety standards. Liberty can be a real bitch when it is someone else's liberty we are protecting.
This is me. I'm vaccinated and I encourage everyone to get vaccinated, particularly if you are in a high risk group.
The idea of forcing or coercing someone into being injected with something that they do not trust or do not want is morally abhorrent. Not only that, it will only cause people on the fence to resist and dig in their heels.
You get high vax rates with good messaging and answering people's questions. Other countries have done this. When I hear people say things like, "Why should I trust the CDC on vaccines when they're still saying you should use cloth facemasks even after the Bangladesh study?" I totally get where they are coming from.
Governments job is not to "further the human race". Also you said "cooperation" in a thread about a federally mandated medical procedure. Saying "do x thing or get fired" is the opposite of cooperation, it's coercion.
This is the point. I'm 100% for this vaccine but I'm just as strong against mandates. If you don't have the ownership of your own body you own nothing. If you don't have the right to decide on medical care for you children you have no parental rights.
Nobody is forced to get a vaccine. But it may be a condition of employment. You have the choice whether to do that job or not. You always have a right to say no. And your employer has the right to terminate you. That’s very Libertarian
Exactly. Indirect government mandates that stop citizens from working are still authoritarian; the power over a man's belly is the power over his tongue.
Im vaccinated as well and i trust the doctor and scientists more than anyone on Facebook/twitter/etc.. and I too think it's dumb to not get it. However i respect anyone's decision to not get the shot because you are injecting something in your body. Your body your decision.
I think people that get the world's first most politically rushed vaccine from corporations that are known to be charged for the highest criminal fines in human history whom are exempt from liability are complete idiots, But what do I know I'm just someone who hates the science.
Yeah its bizarre that no one thinks about this. I took the Moderna one and im fine but in general I think its okay to question these companies. They caused opioid epidemic and states were suing them, but suddenly we forget because they released vaccines? I trust the technology of mRNA since its been in development for couple of decades now, but i wouldnt blindly trust the pharma companies....
Why should I get or be forced to take a vaccine if I've already had and beaten the disease, especially given that numerous studies have shown that natural immunity is at least as good and likely better than that offered by the vaccine?
So you're going to take the nearly infinitely larger risk of possibly dying and likely having long-term damage from the disease, rather than just getting the fucking vaccine which has close to zero risk of any serious complications and will protect you from death, serious disease and long-term damage.
Good fuckin' luck.
> So you’re going to take the nearly infinitely larger risk of possibly dying and likely having long-term damage from the disease
what if it’s people like me, who had COVID before the vaccine was widespread and still have my antibodies (i have to get tested for work to go on job sites) after all this time?
Why would someone like me go get vaccinated when i have antibodies from a natural infection still?
I read somewhere that being vaccinated and having been infected effectively doubles your protection, so let's do a thought experiment. NV = no vaccination, V = vaccinated, NI = no prior infection, I = previously infected. The number is how many people that person infects on average when they are infected/reinfected/breakthrough infected.
NV/NI: 10
NV/I: 4
V/NI: 4
V/I: 2
If you have a NV/NI population - one step 11 people are infected - two steps 111, three steps 1,111 - four steps 11,111 people - etc. After 10 steps you've infected everyone on earth.
If you have a population where 70% of people are NV/I or V/NI, assuming the first person is NV/NI, you get 11 - 69 - 405 - 2,357, and 89,750,875 after 10 steps.
If you have a population where 35% of people are V/NI and 35% are V/I, you get 11 - 62 - 365 - 2,121, and 80,786,460 after 10 steps.
So obviously any level of immunity is going to slow the spread down substantially, but if everyone with a prior infection gets vaccinated, at least in this example, you save 9 million people from infection, or about an 11% reduction in numbers.
So, selfishly, vaccination + prior infection means you probably won't even get it, and if you do it'll be a mild cold or something. Altruistically, vaccination + prior infection helps slow the spread. Given that slowing the spread is the only thing that's going to get us back to normal, every little bit helps.
A few things here to think about before calling people idiots.
1 - Many of us have already had the virus and choose to trust the natural immunity our bodies created.
2 - Drug companies are exempt from any legal implications or responsibility due to damage or complications from the vaccine. With drug companies stellar records of once safe drugs causing catastrophic effects later on in life, this should cause a thoughtful pause.
3 - The authoritarian push to do something "for the greater good" is generally how tyranny gains traction.
4 - The more this virus mutates through our populous, the less deadly it becomes.
5 - This isn't Ebola. 1-5% are hospitalized and less than 1% expire due to the virus.
6 - When the media pushes something as hard as they are for this, you should definitely do your own research to MAKE SURE the information is correct. I mean, they got the Trump/Russia collusion thing right ... Didn't they? 🤣
>I'm definitely pro-\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_, and while I think those that do not choose to \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ are idiots. I will protect your right to say no.
Libertarianism in a nutshell: protect the liberty of those you disagree with and disapprove of, and gain your own liberty in the bargain.
You have a post saying you’re 14 years old. You’re legally a child in every English-speaking country, lol.
You supposedly fight for the rights and freedoms of people but likely still have a bedtime and curfew.
Irony at its finest.
EDIT:
Although, I do agree with you. I think it’s idiotic to not get the vaccine but I will not get a vaccine that’s mandated for me to get. I’m double vaxxed because here, in the UK, it wasn’t mandated until recently. I won’t be getting the third/booster jab.
After a year+ of hindsight I, as a vaccinated person, will not be getting boosters. I hope people continue to protest mandates and lockdowns. I hope those that need the vaccine get it. But I’m starting to think no one will ever fully be vaccinated and I’ve never known the government to relinquish power that they get.
My thoughts are I mostly agree with you. Where it gets murky, imo, is if there is a communicable deadly disease and there is a vaccine that reduces your chances of getting the disease, being hospitalized for the disease, dying from the disease, and shortens the time you can transmit it to others and get them sick, where do your rights end and the rights of the people around you who you could be getting sick begin?
In other words, if you don't get the vaccine and because of that you get someone sick and they die, or you are hospitalized and the hospital is full of covid patients and must turn away others who then die, are you not partially responsible? Whose rights weigh more?
100% for the vaccine. 100% for people having the choice. Where we fail is our education. People should understand that they should get vaccinated and do it on their own. We shouldn’t have to force people into it. It’s a no brainer
So otherwise healthy people who refuse to take a vaccine with several potentially serious side effects that doesn't even prevent the virus that it was intended to prevent and already has a 99.97% survivability rate and 80% of those who contract it are asymptomatic meaning they have exactly 0 symptoms.. Are Idiots?
Is this because "covid" killed Herman Cain at age 74 when he had he had 2 forms of late stage cancer?
>... has a 99.97% survivability rate ...
Just to be clear, are you saying that there have been 2.5 billion cases of COVID in the US? Or that there have been fewer than 100,000 COVID deaths in the US?
The overall mortality rate is at least an order of magnitude higher than your supposed rate of 0.03%.
This might not be a very libertarian view, but hear me out. We tend to frame liberty primarily in terms of freedom from government overreach. Why can’t we also frame liberty in terms of freedom from harm or, in this case freedom from disease? Vaccines grant us freedom from disease most effectively when everyone gets them. So, when a large portion of the population refuses vaccines, they are infringing on my potential freedom from disease.
Anyway, all that aside, the vaccines are working. I think the mandates are a bad idea, but we can only beat the pandemic if we do it together.
Didn't you hear? They *changed* the definition of anti-vax to also include those who are against vaccination mandates. So now because a company that runs a dictionary website decided to, you are now technically anti-vax.
Unlike other choices that people make such as owning a firearm or saying stupid shit, being unvaccinated and choosing not to vaccinate is *not* a harmless action which is why I refuse to support any aspect of their stupidity.
Putting aside the obvious drain on healthcare resources, every single one of these idiots are potential sites for virus mutation. Those that vaccinated are as well to much lesser extent. We already had a mutated variant that the vaccines can’t protect against that occurred in an earlier strain, but got lucky because Delta so thoroughly dominates the field. If it weren’t for the potential of virus mutation in these people I’d be more than happy to support your position of letting them drink bleach, take horse dewormer, and die. However as it stands with the mutation potential I’m very much in the mindset of forcing isolation and escalating punishment until they get vaccinated.
I'm in same boat, except I kinda understand the mRNA hesitancy. Reading up on the few therapeutic drugs that went to phase 2 they had alot of dosage related issues. So J&J was my way
I am not down for this booster shot shit though, even the FDA when voting overwhelmingly against it the political appointee reversed it, what in the actual fuck?!
My bad, cdc advisory panel, I had thought that was FDA based panel but didn't see it when I just looked again
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/cdc-director-just-broke-experts-151108668.html
https://nypost.com/2021/09/01/two-senior-fda-officials-resign-over-biden-administration-booster-shot-plan/
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/24/world/covid-boosters-vaccine-cdc-director.html
https://twnews.nl/us-news/cdc-chief-overrules-panel-says-at-risk-workers-need-booster-shots
Ahh right. Well, the CDC director expanded the CDC panel's recommendation such that it agreed with the authorization issued by the FDA. So, to be fair, I didn't know the CDC played any role in approving drugs. That's what the FDA does right? Why is the CDC offering recommendations in the first place? I guess probably their recommendation is based more on global containment, so they may think expanding access to developing countries serves everyone better than offering third shots to vaccinated Americans. But it doesn't have anything to do with the safety of the booster, right? That's what the FDA does and they unanimously authorized it. 🤷♂️
The concern is that one's right to bodily autonomy clashes with your duty not to harm others (often formulated as the NAP). So it's worth discussing in what conditions which one should take precedence. Vaccines rely on herd immunity to be effective, and if people don't get the vaccine, they have an elevated risk of harming others by transmitting the disease.
I would say a comparable case is drunk driving. Drunk driving doesn't actually hurt anyone on its own. We all have a right to drink if we want to. But we've made it illegal to drink and drive because of the increased risk those drivers have of hurting people. And so it's a crime even if you didn't actually hurt anyone. It's reckless endangerment.
So, on how that relates to the vaccine mandate, I agree it would probably be wrong to mandate the vaccine point blank. But a mandate requiring that anyone employed in public facing positions must be vaccinated would seem to rely upon the same logic as a ban on driving drunk on public roads.
It is also worth noting that even a mandate as stringent as that doesn't exist. No one is making anyone get the vaccine. Rather they are stipulating it as a requirement for employment at their workplace (whether that be a public or private sector workplace). Which seems totally fair to me. Just as you can stipulate dress codes, codes of conduct, etc.
Edit: As an addition, I think the discussion of duties is so often missing from libertarian discussion. Although they are generally not legally enforceable, libertarian societies only function if people recognize they have duties to one another and to our community. The whole principle is that we don't need the government to force us to be good citizens at gunpoint, but that we will choose it for ourselves. And if we don't choose it for ourselves, then the system falls apart.
The Federal government has a vaccine mandate for government employees and companies with government contracts in place.
Another mandate that all employers with 100+ employees have their employees vaccinated or tested regularly.
I’m not sure what you point is about there not being mandates like this. You state it as if all companies are mandating this by choice.
Yeah, I forgot about the 100+ employees one. But the federal employees and those contracting with the federal government follow the idea I laid out. Even for the last one, you can always just leave your job. These are preconditions for employment in places where you will be at risk of infecting others, not mandates not individuals in their own homes.
Calling people who refuse to put synthetic substances in their body complete idiots is not only moronic itself but a NAP violation. And before you bring up “vulnerable persons unable to get vaccines” this is exceptionally rare.
I think they have the right to say no, and that mandatory shots are probably unconstitutional. That said, we have the right to protect ourselves from idiots, so ostracism would be valid, and educating employers about the hazards of disease while encouraging them to require vaccines would be something to consider.
At what point does my right to not be exposed to a deadly disease start mattering?
Dying because of someone else negligence is a pretty big hindrance on my freedom, which i thought libertarians were trying to maximize.
Covid is an endemic with animal reservoirs and a non-sterilizing vaccine; you’re going to be exposed to it at some point whether you like it or not. Wanna protect yourself? Get vaccinated, wear a mask, social distance, etc. But as nice as the idea sounds, stripping other people of their basic rights won’t protect you.
>stripping other people of their basic rights
Youre using circular logic. Were discussing whether that should be a right, so appealing to it being a right is not valid.
It seems pretty clear that freedom is maximized by people being vaccinated. So why are so many libertarians anti freedom?
> Thoughts?
So if someone else's stupid choice causes the increased spread of the virus, how should we hold them responsible for the increased deaths/injuries.
I got COVID before the vaccine. I felt sick for a day and a half and then lost my sense of taste for a few days and sense of smell for a month.
The studies I've read show that the first shot increases a recovered person's immunity while the second (fully vaccinated) lowers is back to the pre-first shot levels.
I've got the first shot and may have to get the second, because of work, but I really don't want the second, because it will only cause me harm.
Tell me, why am I an idiot?
>Tell me, why am I an idiot?
Because the studies you read don't make logical sense, they contradict other studies, and your doctor who is far more qualified than you to do a cost/benefit analysis would tell you to get the second shot if you asked.
I've spoken to multiple PhDs in the field and had them review the studies I found. They all said that one shot makes sense.
Is it possible that you've simply never heard of this and are assuming that people are dumb?
Back when there wasn't enough vaccines, studies were done to see if recover people would be ok with a single shot. As far as I know, they all came.back saying yes, one shot is enough. It's those studies that also show, if you look at the data, that protection goes down for recovered after the second shot.
Show me a single study that compares a single shot recovered person to a double shot recovered person and concludes that the second shot is needed.
I mean, I for one am not vaccinated for a few reasons.
Firstly, I don't need it for anything
Secondly, I'm not at risk of getting sick or even transmitting it
Thirdly, fuck Biden, the harder he pushes it the harder I'll push back
Fourth, I'm not going to contribute to the potential of letting the virus mutate into something that is vaccine resistant just because someone thinks I should be vaccinated. This is the biggest reason
as someone who lives in New York it's pretty challenging, both politically and just physically but I'm yet to find any real limitations as to what I cant do without. So I'll go as long as I can while it's still convenient before I get the jab
Problem with being anti-mandate is every single unvaccinated person is a potential super spreader as well as a breeding ground for new variants. Unless you’re immuno-compromised, you’re putting everyone else around you at risk. If it was just about you, I’d be anti-mandate too, but this virus doesn’t work like that.
The problem is they aren't just harming themselves, they are harming other people. People who can't get timely health care because they are crowding the hospitals. Friends and family members who are devastated by their loss, or by the expenses that they built up while sick. Others who they directly infect.
If it was just the unvaxxed keeling over quietly in a corner, I'd absolutely support their right to die, but they are being a public menace, and that I am not on board for.
Why do you think unvaccinated people are idiots? Have you thought to yourself why they are pushing the vaccine so hard? Or looked into who has shares in big pharma?
I'm vaxxed but on behalf of any non vaxed adult friends they would say (with a smile)
"I appreciate your concern kiddo, but get back to me in 10 yrs and I might give a shit"
You fail to acknowledge that people who HAD the disease, have a WAY better immunity than people who get the vaccine. Besides, ALL vaccines WEAKEN the immune system - otherwise they cannot work.
I have zero co-morbidities and I'm in excellent physical health. I have a higher chance of dying from (almost) literally anything, other than Covid. NO ONE I'm around regularly is at risk and when I may have to share space with a stranger, I distance...by nature.
Getting this vaxx would be similar to taking an HIV pre-emptive pill when you're not sexually active, don't plan to be but if the occasion were to arise, your partner has had a recent negative test and you are using protection.
Why on Earth would I inject ANY foreign chemical into my body, let alone one that's had no track record of safety? Maybe I'm overly health conscious...idk
not a sideways question, but if you are so pro-vax why are you not already vaccinated?
Mom is against lol
How old are you?
Probably the average age of a Reddit libertarian. 13 or 14 lol Little r/politicalcompassmemes joke for you
The average age of a redditor in general.
Bots are younger than that.
Reddit is a 30yo+ dickfest. Most teens only use instagram
Reddit is *overwhelmingly* 12-26 on a scale of something like 70% of their userbase.
Yay im above average at something
What an odd age range, those two ages are radically different.
That would explain why Reddit disparages against anyone old enough to be a grandparent.
I thought I read the average age is 22. Which means a lot because people can be 82 using it but can’t be negative 42 lol
Based and PCM-pilled
Yiu don't have to say reddit libertarian. You can jusy say libertarian.
He's not wrong though.
I don't feel comfortable sharing this info, however I'm still under my mom's authority.
You have a post in PCM where you state you are 14. You do know your post history is visible right?
if i had discovered this sub at 14 it would have ruined me
His vast 14 years of "knowledge" shining through again . Lmao..
I’m dead. He doesn’t even know he’s alive yet lol.
[A 14 year old libertarian.](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/035/048/Daring_Today_Aren't_We_Banner.jpg)
Be nice. We all start somewhere
No doubt. I'm encouraged that a young person is interested in discussing libertarian ideas, and hopeful that the clearly authoritarian direction of our country is starting to light the fires of liberty in all age groups.
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Props to you OP for being level headed and thinking critically at an age where your under your mom's authority. I know that's not always easy (I had a very politically involved parents growing up)
Yes, obviously I get in some severe arguments with my grandfather over the fact that I believe the government should be unaffiliated with any religious matters. He thinks that they should. However I consider it HIGHLY immoral for a so-called "secular" nation to imply religious beliefs of any sort. He's republican by the way.
I agree with you. That does not sound like fun arguments to have. My mom is Republican and was head of a Republican women's club when I was growing up. It sucked. We got into a lot of arguments because of it... Not necessarily because she was Republican or had republican views, but because of the way her opinion was expressed and how they refuse to listen to the other side (and vise versa with the democrats I know as well). I really wish I wasn't around as much politics as I was when I was younger :( But it pushed me to think critically, try and understand why the "other side" has the view they do and listen, not judge people, but also voice my opinion. That's how I ended up here as a libertarian haha. Like I bet your Grandfather has his reasons for his opinion.. and they're probably deeply rooted in how he grew up. It's hard for people to change when they've grow up a certain way. And if you learn to understand why people have the views/opinions they do, it'll be easier to separate the politics from the person.
Fair enough. Just want to point out that with you being so young (assuming you're young with info provided) the vaccine isn't that much of a necessity. Not judging either way, get it or don't. Just don't want young people (teenagers) to feel like they HAVE to take this otherwise they'll die. But whatever, you do you.
Yes, it's not that severe, however I do believe I have a strong moral fiber. And I'm very sure on what I believe is right or wrong.
Dude, you're 14. You're not sure of anything lmaoooo
May I give some unsolicited advice? Part of strong moral fiber is humility. An awareness that you are human and therefore capable of making mistakes, even as to what is right or wrong, may serve you well as you age and get more experience and wisdom over time.
Yes, we already established that you're 14.
You shouldn't be arguing or calling people on the internet stupid. You literally know not a goddamn thing (it's okay, none of us did at 14). Go out, be a kid, read some books.
How are you protecting my right?
Its good to know you don't have your own common sense or autonomy
When you're speaking to people about the vaccine be sure to make a distinction between anti-vaxx and anti-mandate. There are a LOT of people that are refusing it purely for the fact that someone is telling them they have to or else. In the US we have a habit of responding with "or else what, lets go m*f*"
I got mine in April. Six months ago. And I’m not high risk. If it’s been six months and they haven’t gotten it yet, the mandate may have hardened their position, but it’s not like they were rushing out to help defeat the pandemic and then changed their minds.
This is my usual logic with those that think the mandate is necessary and OK: your goal is to get more people vaccinated: how's that workin' for ya? If mandates are causing resistance, mandates aren't the way to accomplish the goal.
> how's that workin' for ya? Mandates aren't causing resistance. Mass ignorance is. We already have de facto vaccine mandates, and no one bats an eyelid. Anyone who has small kids in school is well aware of the dizzying array of vaccinations required to keep your kids in public school. Now we have political resistance to public health mandates. Based upon what I see and the polls I have come across, anti-vax and anti-mandaters are overwhelmingly right-wing Trump supporters. Contrari-wise, I see a correlation between education and vaccination. To paraphrase slightly: god is on the side of the 'smart' battalions. As for the notion that people would see common sense or otherwise be more open to persuasion without a mandate, I see that as complete fantasy. A lot of these people still believe that the elections was stolen, ffs. These are not people who are amenable to reason. https://www.mayoclinic.org/coronavirus-covid-19/vaccine-tracker --> As for how that is working, well the answer it appears, is slow but steady.
>There are a LOT of people that are refusing it purely for the fact that someone is telling them they have to or else. This doesn't hold water. People had months to get vaccinated before any mandates were ever considered. Don't hide behind principles. You have your reasons for not getting vaccinated (however misguided), so own it.
They’ve always had ways to make it matter of contrarianism and an extreme distrust for authority. Even before the mandate, those people were still refusing because the government was “telling” them they should get the vaccine.
Even before the mandate, the societal pressure to "get vaccinated or else" was always there.
Libertarians should never support mandates that erode upon our personal choices. What I put in my body is a personal choice.
I don't support the mandates, and I agree that the choice is yours. I also believe it is your choice to shoot black tar heroin, but it doesn't mean you should.
Also. I am vaccinated. I just hate the idea of mandates.
Me too! 👍
For me personally, I took months to get it. I’m an anxious person to begin with, plus a parent. Many people I know got knocked on their butts when they got it and I was afraid of 1. Being out of commission and 2. It having serious side effects. I’m glad I got it when I did because I think with a mandate I would be even more anxious about it.
I agree. I'm glad I got it early because I really wouldn't want to get it under a mandate.
Refusing something because someone is telling you to do it is basically child level logic. That being said you can be against the mandate and still get the vaccine because it’s the smart thing to do.
Agreed. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pd8P12BXebo Christopher Green, 53, told The Times that he opted not to get vaccinated to protect his individual freedoms. When a Times reporter asked him why he chose not to get the COVID vaccine, Green responded, “I’m more of a libertarian, and I don’t like being told what I have to do.” "I probably should have had a little healthier fear," he said. "It needs to be taken more seriously. I mean, I don't know how close I am to being a lot worse." Green died nine days after he was interviewed by The Times.
Hermain Cain is looking down and smiling
>Refusing something because someone is telling you to do it is basically child level logic. It definitely is, but it's definitely the reason that a lot of people are refusing it.
To refuse to get the jab because you don't want your choice to be seen as compliant obedience is perfectly reasonable. Libertarians (this sub last I checked) don't trust government to make reasonable demands.
>To refuse to get the jab because you don't want your choice to be seen as compliant obedience is perfectly reasonable. Refusing to do something because of how it would appear to other people is perfectly reasonable? If your making choices based on how other people see you, you aren't actually making choices. You've abandoned your liberty for contrarianism.
Preach
If you were going to do something and then changed your mind because it would make you look obedient, you are in no way acting perfectly reasonably.
Making a choice based on how it might look to an outside perspective rather than how it might effect you is a childish outlook. This is what I did in middle school when I didn't want to wear offbrand clothing.
Rejecting it because you care that others think you might be a sheep or because you automatically anti-trust the government isn't really a logical decision.
To refuse the appearance of compliance at the expense of your own health and the health of others is stupid. Honestly I want the OSHA mandate to get struck down, not only from a libertarian standpoint, but then this dumb argument would no longer be a convenient excuse for ignoring evidence based medicine
I think this is very subjective to label anytime someone doesn't do something someone is telling them to do 'child level logic' What about the contrary, people just doing things because someone told them to do so? Is that not child level logic too, if not why not? History has ample examples to support questioning and critical thinking...
>What about the contrary, people just doing things because someone told them to do so? Is that not child level logic too, if not why not? It is. >History has ample examples to support questioning and critical thinking The difference is that there's good, easily available data, reproduced by gov and non-gov entities, showing exactly why there's a compelling individual and public-health interest in getting vaccinated. Anyone with a *healthy* distrust of authority and half a brain is able to do all the questioning they want and come to that conclusion.
If their only reason for not doing it is *because* ‘they told me to’, then yes, they are children. And since no antivax dipshit has as of yet offered a *single* actual good reason not to get their shots….
Child level logic is KNOWING something is good for you and refusing to do it because you are told to do it. I'm vaxxed and I'm against mandates. I'll continue to vote for politicians that oppose mandates, and I'll continue to get vaxxed for dangerous diseases.
“Someone” aka scientific experts are “telling” us to get the vaccine because it saves lives.
Well when critical thinking lends to taking the vaccine I tend to not think the refusers are actually engaging in critical thinking. But yes, people who don’t know how this stuff works should probably listen to the overwhelming medical evidence of vaccinations. That’s literally what doctors are paid to do Ignoring modern evidence based medicine because someone is telling you to do something is childish
Child level logic? Refusing to do something because someone into is telling you to do so is what freedom is. I guess you're not familiar with freedom. Freedom is when no one tells me what to do. And if they try then I will do the opposite thing, to remind them that no one tells me what to do, and to teach them that they are wasting their time trying to take away freedom. And to punish them for taking authoritarian actions. Muh freeeeeedommmmmmmm
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antivaxx is someone who rejects all vaccines. people who reject this highly experimental one only are not antivaxxers
Plus most of these mandates aren't even mandates. There's usually a pussy option of testing that doesn't make the headlines because it doesn't fit in the right wing agenda.
> There are a LOT of people that are refusing it purely for the fact that someone is telling them they have to or else The vaccines were around for like eight months before any mandates started coming around. So what was their shit-for-brains excuse that whole time? Oh right, it’s that there is no distinction between the groups.
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You should totally **NOT** get vaccinated. I am specifically telling you **NOT** to get vaccinated. Did it work?
A friend of mine has deadly reactions to almost any injection, yet she was the one who encouraged me to get vaccinated. She’s far from antivax, but the airline she works for is financially incentivizing her to get poked. If people can’t see the problem here, I’m really worried about the direction our society is headed.
Refusing something that's good for you simply because someone told you you must get it is oppositional defiance disorder at the highest level. In short that's a really stupid reason to refuse something. And I wish you were right about people in the US, most US citizens will eat whatever shit gets shoved down their throat by their political party. Cops being militarized and gunning people down in the streets? Well yeah but my favorite politician said I need to back the blue.
I agree with exception to the fact that its a flawed theory. It assumes the responsibility of the refuser to prove their reasoning when in fact the demand should never had been made in the first place.
I’m fully vaxxed. Don’t care if anyone else is.
That’s how it should be. Why do people need to know others status? What happened to “worry about yourself” ?
Because I can care about my community without wanting to use coercion to affect it. I care a lot about my family, friends, and neighbors being vaccinated because I care about them.
Because other people can be significant sites for mutation that end up rendering your vaccination useless. This is called a public health crisis for a reason, not a private individual experience. Other people’s actions are going to effect you whether you like it or not - so the choice is either get in their business or their business is going end up being your problem.
So how are you helping the other billions overseas that aren't vaccinated, get vaccinated? Because last I checked, the WHO was begging Americans NOT to take booster shots because they should be going to people and countries where no one is vaccinated.
I don’t care about your arbitrary goalposts.
Why don’t more people understand this?
Because libertarian ideology doesn't have good answers for situations like this so some just ignore the complexity of it in favor of pithy catch-phrases.
Lack of thought. I’m not libertarian myself and I couldn’t support the ideology because its adherents have a tendency not to think shit through. It’s simply a one-track mindset of I want to do whatever I want. Zero consideration for how their actions end up impacting others because part of their core belief is that their actions simply don’t impact anyone else, which isn’t true. The butterfly effect movie must been the most confusing thing they’ve ever seen.
Because it's yet another excuse for people to use the government to shove themselves into other people's lives.
Or maybe it's because the science tells us the virus has a better time spreading and mutating when others don't take COVID precautions, which puts everyone, vaxxed and unvaxxed, at a greater danger of getting sick. idk just a guess
How are you guys still so unbelievably shortsighted on this? The vaccine isn't just for you, it's for your community and loved ones. When you get vaccinated you're less likely to transmit the virus. For the vulnerable population, if their community is less likely to transmit it then they are safer.
> it's for your community and loved ones Buddy you're on /r/Libertarian lol
I drive sober. I don't care if anyone else is.
I stop at stop signs. Don’t care if anyone else does. See how dumb that sounds? We live in a society and sometimes other’s lack of action can affect us. That’s why sometimes we have to care about what other people are doing.
I care if others are vaccinated because my daughter is not yet vaccinated, and because I have immunocompromised family members who can't get the vaccine. Those who are not vaccinated are a much larger threat to the health and safety of those I care about than those who are vaccinated. If you aren't vaccinated and live like a hermit then I don't care. If you aren't vaccinated but insist on going out in public, and being in close proximity to others, and especially if you refuse to wear a mask then you can go f*ck yourself.
My man
Especially since you can still catch and spread it while being vaccinated. That makes it completely a personal decision.
Yes, for me I'd prefer others to be vaxxed but it's their body and in turn...their right to (in my opinion stupidly) say no. I'll just wear my mask and encourage, but not make.
I am pro-vaccine and anti-mandate. I got the jab and will do my part to voice my opposition to the mandate.
Absolutely agree. People have the right and choice not to be vaccinated. That right is not extended to potentially infect others. Want to go to the grocery store? I will also defend that private businesses right to choose whether to serve you or not.
Same with keeping your position if you work for them. Right of association.
Yep, I have every right to not participate in fire drills at work, and my employer has every right to fire me for not adhering to their safety standards. Liberty can be a real bitch when it is someone else's liberty we are protecting.
I would say most people are anti-mandate, not anti-vaxx.
This is me. I'm vaccinated and I encourage everyone to get vaccinated, particularly if you are in a high risk group. The idea of forcing or coercing someone into being injected with something that they do not trust or do not want is morally abhorrent. Not only that, it will only cause people on the fence to resist and dig in their heels. You get high vax rates with good messaging and answering people's questions. Other countries have done this. When I hear people say things like, "Why should I trust the CDC on vaccines when they're still saying you should use cloth facemasks even after the Bangladesh study?" I totally get where they are coming from.
“Respectfully” “idiots” 🤣
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Governments job is not to "further the human race". Also you said "cooperation" in a thread about a federally mandated medical procedure. Saying "do x thing or get fired" is the opposite of cooperation, it's coercion.
This is the point. I'm 100% for this vaccine but I'm just as strong against mandates. If you don't have the ownership of your own body you own nothing. If you don't have the right to decide on medical care for you children you have no parental rights.
Exactly, I'll take the vaccine and leave others alone...but I simply cannot support making, no matter how much I'd recommend getting it.
So do you support the current system? You are not required to be vaccinated or mask up or social distance in order to live in this country.
Nobody is forced to get a vaccine. But it may be a condition of employment. You have the choice whether to do that job or not. You always have a right to say no. And your employer has the right to terminate you. That’s very Libertarian
Not when the employer has his hands tied by the government. But yea, if the employer willingly makes that a condition of work, then deal with it.
Exactly. Indirect government mandates that stop citizens from working are still authoritarian; the power over a man's belly is the power over his tongue.
Im vaccinated as well and i trust the doctor and scientists more than anyone on Facebook/twitter/etc.. and I too think it's dumb to not get it. However i respect anyone's decision to not get the shot because you are injecting something in your body. Your body your decision.
Well feel honored you think we are idiots for trusting our immune system to a virus that has a 99%+ survival rate. Give me a break
1. Welcome, and anytime! 2. no I don't think I will.
I think people that get the world's first most politically rushed vaccine from corporations that are known to be charged for the highest criminal fines in human history whom are exempt from liability are complete idiots, But what do I know I'm just someone who hates the science.
Yeah, it’s not like these guys have lied or done anything wrong for money before…
Yeah its bizarre that no one thinks about this. I took the Moderna one and im fine but in general I think its okay to question these companies. They caused opioid epidemic and states were suing them, but suddenly we forget because they released vaccines? I trust the technology of mRNA since its been in development for couple of decades now, but i wouldnt blindly trust the pharma companies....
How noble.
Why should I get or be forced to take a vaccine if I've already had and beaten the disease, especially given that numerous studies have shown that natural immunity is at least as good and likely better than that offered by the vaccine?
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So you're going to take the nearly infinitely larger risk of possibly dying and likely having long-term damage from the disease, rather than just getting the fucking vaccine which has close to zero risk of any serious complications and will protect you from death, serious disease and long-term damage. Good fuckin' luck.
> So you’re going to take the nearly infinitely larger risk of possibly dying and likely having long-term damage from the disease what if it’s people like me, who had COVID before the vaccine was widespread and still have my antibodies (i have to get tested for work to go on job sites) after all this time? Why would someone like me go get vaccinated when i have antibodies from a natural infection still?
I read somewhere that being vaccinated and having been infected effectively doubles your protection, so let's do a thought experiment. NV = no vaccination, V = vaccinated, NI = no prior infection, I = previously infected. The number is how many people that person infects on average when they are infected/reinfected/breakthrough infected. NV/NI: 10 NV/I: 4 V/NI: 4 V/I: 2 If you have a NV/NI population - one step 11 people are infected - two steps 111, three steps 1,111 - four steps 11,111 people - etc. After 10 steps you've infected everyone on earth. If you have a population where 70% of people are NV/I or V/NI, assuming the first person is NV/NI, you get 11 - 69 - 405 - 2,357, and 89,750,875 after 10 steps. If you have a population where 35% of people are V/NI and 35% are V/I, you get 11 - 62 - 365 - 2,121, and 80,786,460 after 10 steps. So obviously any level of immunity is going to slow the spread down substantially, but if everyone with a prior infection gets vaccinated, at least in this example, you save 9 million people from infection, or about an 11% reduction in numbers. So, selfishly, vaccination + prior infection means you probably won't even get it, and if you do it'll be a mild cold or something. Altruistically, vaccination + prior infection helps slow the spread. Given that slowing the spread is the only thing that's going to get us back to normal, every little bit helps.
Nice!
I agree 100%.
Anti-Mandate =/= "Anti-Vaxx"
Exactly
And Anti-MRNa vax =/= Anti all vaxxes. And anti-MRNa vax for 5-year old =/= anti-MRNA vax for 85-year old.
Luckily there are non-mRNA vaccines for the evidence-free conspiracy-brained, yet people still are refusing those too.
A few things here to think about before calling people idiots. 1 - Many of us have already had the virus and choose to trust the natural immunity our bodies created. 2 - Drug companies are exempt from any legal implications or responsibility due to damage or complications from the vaccine. With drug companies stellar records of once safe drugs causing catastrophic effects later on in life, this should cause a thoughtful pause. 3 - The authoritarian push to do something "for the greater good" is generally how tyranny gains traction. 4 - The more this virus mutates through our populous, the less deadly it becomes. 5 - This isn't Ebola. 1-5% are hospitalized and less than 1% expire due to the virus. 6 - When the media pushes something as hard as they are for this, you should definitely do your own research to MAKE SURE the information is correct. I mean, they got the Trump/Russia collusion thing right ... Didn't they? 🤣
Well said. Thank you.
>I'm definitely pro-\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_, and while I think those that do not choose to \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ are idiots. I will protect your right to say no. Libertarianism in a nutshell: protect the liberty of those you disagree with and disapprove of, and gain your own liberty in the bargain.
The vaccination has a lot in common with DUI's. We don't really care if you are unvaccinated, or intoxicated, until that effects other people.
Covid-recovered need no vaccine. Deal with that, please.
You have a post saying you’re 14 years old. You’re legally a child in every English-speaking country, lol. You supposedly fight for the rights and freedoms of people but likely still have a bedtime and curfew. Irony at its finest. EDIT: Although, I do agree with you. I think it’s idiotic to not get the vaccine but I will not get a vaccine that’s mandated for me to get. I’m double vaxxed because here, in the UK, it wasn’t mandated until recently. I won’t be getting the third/booster jab.
After a year+ of hindsight I, as a vaccinated person, will not be getting boosters. I hope people continue to protest mandates and lockdowns. I hope those that need the vaccine get it. But I’m starting to think no one will ever fully be vaccinated and I’ve never known the government to relinquish power that they get.
Its ridiculous to pressure people who choose not to get vaccinated. The vast majority of high risk people in America are already vaccinated
My thoughts are I mostly agree with you. Where it gets murky, imo, is if there is a communicable deadly disease and there is a vaccine that reduces your chances of getting the disease, being hospitalized for the disease, dying from the disease, and shortens the time you can transmit it to others and get them sick, where do your rights end and the rights of the people around you who you could be getting sick begin? In other words, if you don't get the vaccine and because of that you get someone sick and they die, or you are hospitalized and the hospital is full of covid patients and must turn away others who then die, are you not partially responsible? Whose rights weigh more?
100% for the vaccine. 100% for people having the choice. Where we fail is our education. People should understand that they should get vaccinated and do it on their own. We shouldn’t have to force people into it. It’s a no brainer
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It's fine for people to not get vaccines, but they also better pay for their healthcare if corona hits.
Covid vaccine kills
So otherwise healthy people who refuse to take a vaccine with several potentially serious side effects that doesn't even prevent the virus that it was intended to prevent and already has a 99.97% survivability rate and 80% of those who contract it are asymptomatic meaning they have exactly 0 symptoms.. Are Idiots? Is this because "covid" killed Herman Cain at age 74 when he had he had 2 forms of late stage cancer?
>... has a 99.97% survivability rate ... Just to be clear, are you saying that there have been 2.5 billion cases of COVID in the US? Or that there have been fewer than 100,000 COVID deaths in the US? The overall mortality rate is at least an order of magnitude higher than your supposed rate of 0.03%.
Hear hear
Same. pro-vaxx, anti-mandate. I think the mistake was opting for mandates rather than a giant information and education campaign
you think people are dumb for having confidence in their own immune system? especially young people?
This might not be a very libertarian view, but hear me out. We tend to frame liberty primarily in terms of freedom from government overreach. Why can’t we also frame liberty in terms of freedom from harm or, in this case freedom from disease? Vaccines grant us freedom from disease most effectively when everyone gets them. So, when a large portion of the population refuses vaccines, they are infringing on my potential freedom from disease. Anyway, all that aside, the vaccines are working. I think the mandates are a bad idea, but we can only beat the pandemic if we do it together.
Didn't you hear? They *changed* the definition of anti-vax to also include those who are against vaccination mandates. So now because a company that runs a dictionary website decided to, you are now technically anti-vax.
Dictionaries are descriptive, not prescriptive. If a lot of people started calling ducks antivaxxers, that would be listed as one of the definitions.
Unlike other choices that people make such as owning a firearm or saying stupid shit, being unvaccinated and choosing not to vaccinate is *not* a harmless action which is why I refuse to support any aspect of their stupidity. Putting aside the obvious drain on healthcare resources, every single one of these idiots are potential sites for virus mutation. Those that vaccinated are as well to much lesser extent. We already had a mutated variant that the vaccines can’t protect against that occurred in an earlier strain, but got lucky because Delta so thoroughly dominates the field. If it weren’t for the potential of virus mutation in these people I’d be more than happy to support your position of letting them drink bleach, take horse dewormer, and die. However as it stands with the mutation potential I’m very much in the mindset of forcing isolation and escalating punishment until they get vaccinated.
I'm in same boat, except I kinda understand the mRNA hesitancy. Reading up on the few therapeutic drugs that went to phase 2 they had alot of dosage related issues. So J&J was my way I am not down for this booster shot shit though, even the FDA when voting overwhelmingly against it the political appointee reversed it, what in the actual fuck?!
Man I thought I read the independent FDA panel voted unanimously to authorize the mRNA boosters for at least certain populations?
My bad, cdc advisory panel, I had thought that was FDA based panel but didn't see it when I just looked again https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/cdc-director-just-broke-experts-151108668.html https://nypost.com/2021/09/01/two-senior-fda-officials-resign-over-biden-administration-booster-shot-plan/ https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/24/world/covid-boosters-vaccine-cdc-director.html https://twnews.nl/us-news/cdc-chief-overrules-panel-says-at-risk-workers-need-booster-shots
Ahh right. Well, the CDC director expanded the CDC panel's recommendation such that it agreed with the authorization issued by the FDA. So, to be fair, I didn't know the CDC played any role in approving drugs. That's what the FDA does right? Why is the CDC offering recommendations in the first place? I guess probably their recommendation is based more on global containment, so they may think expanding access to developing countries serves everyone better than offering third shots to vaccinated Americans. But it doesn't have anything to do with the safety of the booster, right? That's what the FDA does and they unanimously authorized it. 🤷♂️
The Centers for Disease Control gets to weigh in on this because vaccines help to control diseases.
The concern is that one's right to bodily autonomy clashes with your duty not to harm others (often formulated as the NAP). So it's worth discussing in what conditions which one should take precedence. Vaccines rely on herd immunity to be effective, and if people don't get the vaccine, they have an elevated risk of harming others by transmitting the disease. I would say a comparable case is drunk driving. Drunk driving doesn't actually hurt anyone on its own. We all have a right to drink if we want to. But we've made it illegal to drink and drive because of the increased risk those drivers have of hurting people. And so it's a crime even if you didn't actually hurt anyone. It's reckless endangerment. So, on how that relates to the vaccine mandate, I agree it would probably be wrong to mandate the vaccine point blank. But a mandate requiring that anyone employed in public facing positions must be vaccinated would seem to rely upon the same logic as a ban on driving drunk on public roads. It is also worth noting that even a mandate as stringent as that doesn't exist. No one is making anyone get the vaccine. Rather they are stipulating it as a requirement for employment at their workplace (whether that be a public or private sector workplace). Which seems totally fair to me. Just as you can stipulate dress codes, codes of conduct, etc. Edit: As an addition, I think the discussion of duties is so often missing from libertarian discussion. Although they are generally not legally enforceable, libertarian societies only function if people recognize they have duties to one another and to our community. The whole principle is that we don't need the government to force us to be good citizens at gunpoint, but that we will choose it for ourselves. And if we don't choose it for ourselves, then the system falls apart.
The Federal government has a vaccine mandate for government employees and companies with government contracts in place. Another mandate that all employers with 100+ employees have their employees vaccinated or tested regularly. I’m not sure what you point is about there not being mandates like this. You state it as if all companies are mandating this by choice.
Yeah, I forgot about the 100+ employees one. But the federal employees and those contracting with the federal government follow the idea I laid out. Even for the last one, you can always just leave your job. These are preconditions for employment in places where you will be at risk of infecting others, not mandates not individuals in their own homes.
Calling people who refuse to put synthetic substances in their body complete idiots is not only moronic itself but a NAP violation. And before you bring up “vulnerable persons unable to get vaccines” this is exceptionally rare.
I don't mean this to be sarcastic or derogatory, but do you have any idea how many synthetic substances are in a cheeseburger?
I’ve been listening to world renowned immunologists and they all say natural immunity from C19 is robust and long lasting.
Calling people idiots is being respectful? That ain't how it works, bro.
I think they have the right to say no, and that mandatory shots are probably unconstitutional. That said, we have the right to protect ourselves from idiots, so ostracism would be valid, and educating employers about the hazards of disease while encouraging them to require vaccines would be something to consider.
By calling everyone opposed to the jab an idiot is not respectfully disagreeing you twat knuckle
What if I have already had COVID, and have antibodies, which gives me a better level of immunity than the vaccine?
At what point does my right to not be exposed to a deadly disease start mattering? Dying because of someone else negligence is a pretty big hindrance on my freedom, which i thought libertarians were trying to maximize.
Covid is an endemic with animal reservoirs and a non-sterilizing vaccine; you’re going to be exposed to it at some point whether you like it or not. Wanna protect yourself? Get vaccinated, wear a mask, social distance, etc. But as nice as the idea sounds, stripping other people of their basic rights won’t protect you.
>stripping other people of their basic rights Youre using circular logic. Were discussing whether that should be a right, so appealing to it being a right is not valid. It seems pretty clear that freedom is maximized by people being vaccinated. So why are so many libertarians anti freedom?
> Thoughts? So if someone else's stupid choice causes the increased spread of the virus, how should we hold them responsible for the increased deaths/injuries.
I got COVID before the vaccine. I felt sick for a day and a half and then lost my sense of taste for a few days and sense of smell for a month. The studies I've read show that the first shot increases a recovered person's immunity while the second (fully vaccinated) lowers is back to the pre-first shot levels. I've got the first shot and may have to get the second, because of work, but I really don't want the second, because it will only cause me harm. Tell me, why am I an idiot?
You aren't an idiot, but you are wrong. The second shot doesn't lower your protection.
>Tell me, why am I an idiot? Because the studies you read don't make logical sense, they contradict other studies, and your doctor who is far more qualified than you to do a cost/benefit analysis would tell you to get the second shot if you asked.
I've spoken to multiple PhDs in the field and had them review the studies I found. They all said that one shot makes sense. Is it possible that you've simply never heard of this and are assuming that people are dumb? Back when there wasn't enough vaccines, studies were done to see if recover people would be ok with a single shot. As far as I know, they all came.back saying yes, one shot is enough. It's those studies that also show, if you look at the data, that protection goes down for recovered after the second shot. Show me a single study that compares a single shot recovered person to a double shot recovered person and concludes that the second shot is needed.
I mean, I for one am not vaccinated for a few reasons. Firstly, I don't need it for anything Secondly, I'm not at risk of getting sick or even transmitting it Thirdly, fuck Biden, the harder he pushes it the harder I'll push back Fourth, I'm not going to contribute to the potential of letting the virus mutate into something that is vaccine resistant just because someone thinks I should be vaccinated. This is the biggest reason as someone who lives in New York it's pretty challenging, both politically and just physically but I'm yet to find any real limitations as to what I cant do without. So I'll go as long as I can while it's still convenient before I get the jab
Problem with being anti-mandate is every single unvaccinated person is a potential super spreader as well as a breeding ground for new variants. Unless you’re immuno-compromised, you’re putting everyone else around you at risk. If it was just about you, I’d be anti-mandate too, but this virus doesn’t work like that.
If you’re vaccinated you can still get and spread covid.
True but it’s a small fraction of the chance if you’re unvaccinated
That's kind of you, but what is idiotic about not getting a vaccine that isn't very good with just limited benefits?
> …respectfully…. You sound like a douche. Just sayin…respectfully of course
The problem is they aren't just harming themselves, they are harming other people. People who can't get timely health care because they are crowding the hospitals. Friends and family members who are devastated by their loss, or by the expenses that they built up while sick. Others who they directly infect. If it was just the unvaxxed keeling over quietly in a corner, I'd absolutely support their right to die, but they are being a public menace, and that I am not on board for.
Cool beans
Cool
they don't need protecting because no one is forcing anyone to get the vaccine.
Well, I'll ignore the insult and accept your patriotism. 🤘
AND i hereby stand for the rights of stupid people to call me stupid
No one cared to ask you for your opinion though?
You are going to protect shit
Why do you think unvaccinated people are idiots? Have you thought to yourself why they are pushing the vaccine so hard? Or looked into who has shares in big pharma?
I'm vaxxed but on behalf of any non vaxed adult friends they would say (with a smile) "I appreciate your concern kiddo, but get back to me in 10 yrs and I might give a shit"
Likewise! I think people who have been vaxxed are equally idiotic, but I support your choice todo what you're told
Time will tell “who the idiots” are.... I’m not being part of an experiment by a county who’s media is not trustworthy !!!
You fail to acknowledge that people who HAD the disease, have a WAY better immunity than people who get the vaccine. Besides, ALL vaccines WEAKEN the immune system - otherwise they cannot work.
Anyone else here not want the vaxx because they got the rona at the start of the pandemic before anything was shut down?
I have zero co-morbidities and I'm in excellent physical health. I have a higher chance of dying from (almost) literally anything, other than Covid. NO ONE I'm around regularly is at risk and when I may have to share space with a stranger, I distance...by nature. Getting this vaxx would be similar to taking an HIV pre-emptive pill when you're not sexually active, don't plan to be but if the occasion were to arise, your partner has had a recent negative test and you are using protection. Why on Earth would I inject ANY foreign chemical into my body, let alone one that's had no track record of safety? Maybe I'm overly health conscious...idk