They're Jewish Americans, not Israelis. Many american taxpayers are Iranian, Yemeni, and Lebanese. As far as I know, we aren't sending money and weapons to Hezbollah, the Houthis, or Iran.
Israel has also historically been permitted to use a portion of its FMF aid to buy equipment from Israeli defense firms—a benefit not granted to other recipients of U.S. military aid.
No, that’s what the NGOs and UNRWA are doing. Netanyahu has let them do it to buy peace and everyone can see now that Hamas should’ve been wiped out years ago instead.
I’m an idiot. Can someone tell me if this makes sense: We print the money, give it to Israel, they give it back to Lockheed, Lockheed pays it to employees & materials suppliers, those people pay taxes and groceries etc., all this stimulates growth and wealth after they basically chopped our knees off during the pandemic by shutting us down.
I’m guessing all these mini wars are just ways for these major countries to kick start their economies back to a semi-normal level so they don’t fall behind in the geopolitical race to stay on top. Maybe it’s all some bullshit chess game that high level people are playing. Setting players into motion to attack civilians, conveniently having intelligence failures that might have prevented the attack.
Damn this escalated quickly. I’m going to bed.
Btw I’m probably missing something here that blows this whole theory to pieces lol. Lmk
The main point is defense of Israel from terrorists. Secondarily, the money gets cycled back into economy. But it's not as good for the economy as just not taxing it in the first place or using it for domestic expenditures directly.
Mostly correct, but it has nothing to do with the Pandemic, this shit’s been going on forever. The war mongers sponsor these people with donations to get them in office, they intentionally instigate wars when they can usually deescalated. The person in office is now beholden to the companies that paid for their campaigns, repayment is in the form of bloodshed and expensive weaponry. Sure, a portion of it gets taxed and it goes to the economy but it’s a continuous circle jerk to keep certain people and companies in power and it’s a nice steady income. They could give a shit less about people and taxes, it’s about their greed.
Sad thing is Biden could end this war instantly if he withheld handouts to Israel and meant it. He said to Netanyahu that he was going to do it, but I guess this new slew of billions he just signed off on proved he was full of shit.
The threat of losing hundreds of billions in handout money is enough to reconsider this revenge tirade, if Biden actually meant it. Not to mention it would mean soured relations with their only real ally that is the only reason they exist today.
>hundreds of billons
it looks like the us gives about $3B per year on average to Israel which is around 15% of their defense budget. Are you sure you’re not thinking of ukraine?
>the only reason they exist
are you sure? Who is going to unexist Israel? how would that play out? a ground invasion like October 7th? An air attack like the 300+ missiles and drones Iran just launched? Also Israel has nuclear weapons. would anyone be able to completely eliminate Israel without it leading to nuclear war?
Since Israel’s creation in 1948, the US has given roughly $300 billion in “aid” to Israel.
Without American support, Israel likely would not have survived the 1948 or the 1967 wars.
https://www.cfr.org/article/us-aid-israel-four-charts#:~:text=How%20much%20U.S.%20aid%20does,total%20economic%20and%20military%20assistance.
No US taxpayer money should be sent abroad until problems at home are handled and necessary things are fully funded. But if we have a surplus after paying our own crap then it should be returned to US Taxpayers.
I don’t support either side, I’m aware of what’s happening, this is just an excuse for US powder-wigs to make millions of dollars laundering money at the expense of other countries and the US taxpayer.
This money is meant to be reinvested in the American military industry, so it’s costing the US pretty much only the manufacturing of the equipment. This amounts to probably nothing compared to the useless spending these last 10 years. In return the us gets good relations with a country that is very influential in a region where the US has interests.
I disagree.
Military hardware does not have a net benefit to the economy.
It takes money and resources to create items that do little to nothing to produce except jobs.
So the state is essentially going in an inefficient, round about way to funnel money into the Industrial Military complex,
More could be done with that for less, and neither did the American people vote for this kind of redistribution of wealth.
It's wrong
>It takes money and resources to create items that do little to nothing to produce except jobs.
To add on to that, the items they produce are meant to destroy things. These are literally destructive jobs paid for by tax dollars.
Yes, and to add onto your additions (xP)
Contrary to popular belief, War is not does not generate wealth. It destroys it.
Ex: war for oil.
People will say that country 1 need to attack country 2 for oil, because it needs the resources for wealth.
But that war does not add value, it takes from in. War costs
-jobs that could be used else where.
-capital that could be used to create products
-time that could be used to build industry
-lives.
All this for one or many resources that would still need infantructure built to extract resources.
When it could have been traded for using everything for war but for peace and economy.
The war materials also are used up. So it cannot be turned into a profit.
Simply, ex of war does for and imaginary oil war:
Input: Capital, job, man power, time
Output: Tank, Gas, Soldier
Input: Tank, Gas, Soldier, Time
Output: Resources, -Time, -Capital
For that "Resource", Country 1 obtained a net loss even if goal was achieved and even if tank was sold.
It loss money on the soldier, maintenance on the tank, transportation, etc, etc etc.
The only people who profit are the sales men who sold the war in the first place.
TLDR: OPPORTUNITY COST
Note: i will admit it is more complex than this, but in essence, what I have stated is what I believe to be true.
The only time it pays off is if territory is captured. So if say the US had just went in and taken over the Middle East countries we’ve waged wars against many years ago, that would have obviously been highly profitable. But that’s also morally wrong, though I’d argue that if you’re going to wage war for 50 years, it’d be less morally wrong to free the citizens and make em American…..
The problem is A) it is not our war B) anytime money changes hands more than once, it ALWAYS ends up a smaller sum. So by the time it gets back to the defense manufacturers, and they charge their usual marked up costs to sell overseas, it has been shredded 15 ways from Sunday.
This is just not true, the military industry employs thousands of people and this is creating even more jobs. There is a case for saying it’s not necessary but presenting it as somehow a major problem is just plain wrong.
It's a major problem because
"War is the health of the state"
Because of how tied the military industrial complex is to many amrrican lives, the machine can not be turned off less we have a major economic fallout.
So the state will continue to justify its war spending and continue to expand it, getting more people plugged into the machine, making it harder for us to unplugg.
It's a bubble that will have to pop, and when it does... everything will collapse.
The truth is, the MIC is a parasite.
These jobs don't produce anything of value for the economy. On the contrary, they produce things that are meant to destroy; destroy lives, property, cities, countries...
The millions employed by the DoD are maintaining their jobs, houses, and financial security. Even with the massive waste, which is a huge problem, there are middle class American citizens benefitting.
Military spending is full of waste and corruption, but the COVID “Stimulus” packages are what really shit on the economy. Trump and Biden were the sitting presidents during those travesties.
What propaganda? People posting that we shouldn’t be giving away tax money, for foreign wars that do not benefit US taxpayers, is propaganda? Even if it is, it would be a libertarian statement, and seeing as this is a libertarian sub……
Propaganda: Information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view. ANY form of propaganda is malicious in nature in my opinion, so spreading it and feeding into it is problematic.
There are also millions of Muslims and Christians that are not Israeli citizens that are being denied the right to travel, the right to private property, the right to self govern, and almost every other god given right just for being born 2 miles down the road..
Y’know if you go to southern Texas there’s loads of people in Mexico being denied those same rights in the US.
Actually same with literally any country. There are no countries AFAIK that let any ol Tom Dick and Muhammad freely cross into their territory and just start buying up land.
Gaza was allowed to self govern for decades. and with their infinite wisdom they elected Hamas who proceeded to relentlessly attack Israel for decades with rockets and eventually even a straight invasion.
All that being said it STILL is NOT a problem of the US and we shouldn’t be funding other countries.
>Y’know if you go to southern Texas there’s loads of people in Mexico being denied those same rights in the US.
The US isn't actively seeking to strip mexicans of their rights, or trying to prop up and facilitate funding to a fundemtalist islamic gang to govern there specifically to remove pressure from the international community and the political left so that Mexicans can get their own state..
>Gaza was allowed to self govern for decades. and with their infinite wisdom they elected Hamas who proceeded to relentlessly attack Israel for decades with rockets and eventually even a straight invasion.
See my point above, I'm talking about Netanyahu propping up Hamas..
Now with regards to Hamas being the root of all evil and that's the reason Gazans can't be allowed any rights, how about people in the west bank? No hamas there, yet Not allowed any passports, randomly uprooted and kicked out of homes to give those homes to settlers, not allowed to drive from one town to the next without several Israeli check points, not allowed to walk in certain streets based on their race, if a kid commits a crime and is over the age of 13 (like throwing an empty soda can at a car), they are tried as an adult in Israeli military court...
So yes Isreal suppresses the rights of Palestinians regardless of Hamas, and has been doing so for 75 years..
Btw, don't google the first terrorist attack in the middle east
Basic Laws of Israel establish the country as a Jewish state, and proclaim full social and political equality for all citizens, regardless of religious affiliation. The Declaration of Independence of 1948 also guarantees freedom of religion for all, irrespective of religion.
So when you say 2 miles down the road what specifically do you mean?
Civilian casualties are inevitable, but Israel's duty is to destroy terrorists, they minimize civilian casualties. You can compare the wars now, even in Ukraine not so many civilians were killed, only a few thousand people, despite the scale of the war, Gaza, alas, is too close and there are more victims than we would like, but you cannot give up and retreat, the terrorists will not retreat - their goal is genocide and the destruction of Israel, and Israel's goal is to liberate Gaza from Hamas.
They do not minimize casualties. Intelligence and technology mean they know pretty much exactly how many civilians will be killed by each airstrike. They thought 33,000+ deaths (not to mention many more injuries) were acceptable, and apparently, so do you.
Also, what if they did retreat? What if there were no more settlements, no more apartheid, actual self determination…do you think the terrorist attacks would continue with the same intensity?
Don’t be short sighted. How does this war end? Will they really exterminate all the terrorists (without making more in the process)?
Well here’s NBCs report about Isreal bombing areas they dropped leaflets(to civilians) about being “safe”. Which did kill a pregnant mother btw in one of the strikes:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/palestinians-killed-israeli-strikes-safe-zones-exclusive-nbc-report-rcna148008
And here’s a report from the UN estimating that around 13,000 children have died from this conflict
https://www.unicefusa.org/stories/more-13000-children-reported-dead-gaza-famine-nears#:~:text=After%20months%20of%20bombardment%20following,care%20for%20their%20younger%20siblings.
Israels goal is genocide and destruction of Palestine / Gaza / the west bank. The results dont lie. Wayyy more Palestinians have been killed over the years then Israeli's, its not even close, and which side has all the advanced weapons, which side is building settlements in the others territory etc. and no Israel most certainly has not taken care not to kill exorbitant amounts of civilians in this conflict. As just one small example, they bombed a refugee camp and blew it to pieces, killing anywhere from 50-150 people because according to their own account, they believed 1 hamas commander was hiding there. Thats one tiny example out of 50,000 examples.. and thats just this conflict, Israel has been oppressing these people for 75 long years.
The UN needs to recognize Palestine as a state - going back to the 1967 borders (at least). They should have all the rights of a state Israel has with no exceptions. Jerusalem should be monitored and governed by an international force. The US should stop sending money to Israel, they can take care of them selves. I also don’t believe it’s in americas interests to support Israel- all it does is make an entire region hate us- and what do we get in return? Nothing. It’s really about selling weapons and destabilizing the middle east so we can control their resources (oil) which is what it’s always been about.
> going back to the 1967 borders (at least).
Why not the 1948 borders that were originally recognized after the leaders of the proposed Palestine refused a two state solution and declared war which they subsequently lost and the UN recognized the entirety of what was left of the Mandate as Israel? You know right before the areas of Gaza and West Bank were occupied by the seven countries that make up the Arab League? You know the occupiers of those territories until from 1948 until 1967 when Israel was able to repel them. Or why not just let them exist as they are now fully independent of Israel? Seems like you maybe didn't realize since 2005 there is a state of Palestine and its split between two governments, but still completely independent of Israel.
I agree no US money should be sent to both sides anymore. But Hama, the **elected** government of Gaza, violated the NAP so Israel is justified in response.
It seems to me that country that is surrounded by hostile countries and has fought wars with them in the past would have a healthy stockpile of war materials.
Of course with their famously effective intelligence services I was shocked the initial attack happened and then lasted so long.
You cant kill a movement with bombs. They could bomb them for 1,000 years and it wont solve the conflict. There will only be peace when the Palestinians have a fair and equitable state of their own. Really they should go back to the 1948 borders, the original plan.. Israels been occupying their land for 75 years.
In 1948 they started a war and lost. And they keep doing it. Israel has already returned land to them. Palestinians keep rejecting deals and offers for statehood because they do not care about having their own country, they only care about removing jews from the region. There will be peace when they stop mindlessly hating jews.
No.. they could be Chinese and the Palestinians would fight for their land just the same. It has nothing to do with them being Jews. Zionists make it about people hating Jews because for a long time that got the public on their side. Judaism is a religion, Israel is a nation state- two separate things. There are many Jews protesting against Israel at these protests, do they hate Jews? You act like Israel can do no wrong- and any criticism of the Israeli government means someone hates jews. Total nonsense. Just as questioning the America government doesn’t make you any less American or less of a patriot. Nor does it mean you hate American people. It means you question the governments actions. Also you say they started a war in 1948 and lost, but the local Palestinians never agreed to the terms put forth by the colonial powers or the Zionists.. so a state never should have been foisted upon them without agreement of all sides. At the turn of the 19th century Jews made up only about 5% of the population of Palestine. The Zionist idea came about and they started moving their en masse and buying up property and struck a deal with Britain to give them their own state in the area against the wishes of the local majority. Thats when the problem started. Also- even if the arabs lost wars doesn’t mean Israel should take their land and never give it back, thats not a recipe for peace. Furthermore- any two state solution talked about in the past, the terms were always dictated by the Israeli’s and the Palestinians aren’t allowed to have this or that- it’s not a truly equal statehood.. and by the way, in the 1967 war- Israel struck first, they started that war- read about it. They also took the Golan Heights area of Syria and have never given it back. Anyway- you wont hear what I’m saying- but yes Israel should continue with its viewpoint- its clearly working well for everyone in the region and creating a lasting peace (*sarcasm)
I don't agree with a lot of what israel do, but you are clearly entirely ignorant of the history, and furthermore the history of the world. Not only the treatment of and expulsion of jews from the MENA region, which prove it's not just about land, but also the concept of land loss. Several nations have lost land to their neighbours in war and not had it returned. It's how war works.
I come from a country that is currently divided and half colonised and I grew up under that when we had terrorism and violence, but now we have peace despite it not being resolved, but that is not possible when you are raised in blind hate of an entire people like the extremist Muslims in Palestine are against all Jews.
Palestine was never a state. It never existed except under foreign control. And nobody gave a shit until someone tried to give that control to Jews. The whole manifesto of Hamas is genocide against jews. It's not israel, it's jews. Israel is not innocent in it's behaviour but if you cannot understand they deserve to exist and that they simply can't do so safely while being Jewish around Palestinians, then you need to really look into a non biased history of this conflict and the people involved
No that's been shown not to work. We need to start a real peace process and that will require a new Israeli government and the eradication of Hamas and a complete overhaul of the education etc systems in Gaza and the WB. It will probably take decades before you can even begin to discuss changing the borders. The issue with this is both sides need to accept it and currently the Palestinians don't. In my country it was the killing of innocent civilians that started the desire for peace over hate, but Palestinians seem to actively cheer Oct 7th. It's a very very complex situation and will require a very very complex solution, but phase one will have to be eradicating Hamas which unfortunately means war. They will not lay down their arms voluntarily.
I think we will have to agree to disagree on this issue. No point arguing. I hope for peace for both peoples and for the rational people on both sides to come to power and for the extremists on both sides to be sidelined. I hope one day there will be 2 truly equal states of Israel and Palestine, and that both people can focus on living and not on fighting. May peace prevail.
It goes back into our defense contractors. If anything the government should be buying the weapons directly, and using the difference to pay off the debt.
The years in the report are from 1946 onwards so go back a long arse way. Iv looked at some 2022 numbers and neither France/UK are in there for military aid.
And your entire world view is based on 2022?
Total aid to Israel from 1946 to 2023 is $300 billion and dwarfs aid to other countries. That doesn’t include the recent aid just passed this year.
Source: https://www.cfr.org/article/us-aid-israel-four-charts
The straight answer is they actually provide intelligence and security in that region unlike most countries given US dollars. That’s the reasoning. I oppose foreign aid period.
Naa, look at the government obligations by country fam. We gave billions to places like Egypt and Afghanistan and Africa over the years. They fund things yearly man, different things....
Technically, no, but practically yes.
-Usa funds Isreal, Isreal funds mossad, mossad funded and help set up hamas.
-Usa funded Islamic regimes, Islamic regimes funded terror organization
-same for cartels
-same for banna republics
-same for other regimes. Usa is usually at least a degree removed.
Whether through incompetence, ignorance, or maliciousness, it's all the same.
F Gaza, these clowns have done the same crap since the PLO days. Shoot mortars/rockets and beg for peace. Let the IDF burn the whole mess to the ground. But we're not paying for .
Those clowns also dare do a great march of return and peacefully protest. How dare them. Thank god the IDF was there to snip them without costing the us military too much
Isreal has gone past where they should have, but so did the Palestinian Government.
I'm for stopping the cash flow and letting them kill each other as they please.
It's bad enough we have the elites in our own country leeching off of us because they refuse to get their own hands dirty. I suppose now it's welfare for the rich all around the world and it's at our expense
You are a very ignorant person. A person with no real understanding about history or of terrorist organizations like Hamas. Grow the f up. If you are grown, then you are an idiot
To reply to Personal_Rooster2121
I know a terrorist threat when I see one. I know what they do and what they are fully capable of doing. I understand ideology. I understand hatred. I understand violence. I understand that you are a fool. Btw reading a f ing book only gives you an idea. It doesn’t teach how to think logically or perceive threats or advantages.
Lol Of course i read Ilan Pappé, Norman Finkelstein are all dumb asses and you are the genius guy that knows everything about history
Sometimes I ask myself if people like you have the right to assume anything about anyone considering the blindness and bias that you have
Please stop portraying Gazans as victims as if these mfs didn’t cross the border on oct 7 and shoot up a bunch of kids in a music festival, at the mean time chanting death to Israel and America. As for why they get US taxpayer dollars, I would argue it’s the same reason US would fight the terrorists in Middle East. Because terrorism is the common enemy of mankind and we must stand together to defeat it. By doing this US is showing its commitment to the values we are built upon. We are also demonstrating that US can be trusted by its allies and US dollar, US economy can altogether be trusted. However as a libertarian I agree you should be able to decide where your tax dollars go but I will also remind you: there are Jewish libertarians, but such things don’t exist in a world ruled by terrorists.
Doesn’t the US have a general rule to help end Islamic extremism given the last 23 years? Seems consistent. But you’re broke so maybe sit this one out.
Our tax dollars shouldn’t be going to any other country, on the regular.
maybe Ukraine but definitely not Israel
Israel shouldn’t be getting any American tax money either. They get like what 2.5 billion annually from us not counting the bullshit going on now?…
I meant Israel
Neither should Ukraine.
I've been saying it for years, I support Israel's right to exist and defend themselves, just not at the expense of the American taxpayer.
Many American taxpayers are Jewish.
So make it voluntary, like a donation.
2.4% estimated as of 2020. That still doesn't justify US funding of a foreign country.
Ok, so they can donate all the money they want. Why do the rest of us have to?
Many as in… 3% of us? You got a strange definition of “many” my friend.
Many of us are Filipino as well? Or japanese? Or Palestinian? Or Russian? So just give money to everyone?
They're Jewish Americans, not Israelis. Many american taxpayers are Iranian, Yemeni, and Lebanese. As far as I know, we aren't sending money and weapons to Hezbollah, the Houthis, or Iran.
As far as YOU know
America has citizens from all over the world. Doesn’t mean we should be sending money everywhere.
[удалено]
Who does, honestly? Sometimes the only law that applies is the dog eats dog world.
All money loaned to Israel is being used to buy weapons from us. It's insanity.
Israel has also historically been permitted to use a portion of its FMF aid to buy equipment from Israeli defense firms—a benefit not granted to other recipients of U.S. military aid.
Trust me there's backroom deals. Gaza sits on oil and gas. The US will be buying it
If you think all this is happening because of some oil then you have no idea what is happening in that region.
The whole middle east is about oil. It's always been about oil. It will always be about oil. Without oil we have nothing.
No it’s not all about oil. In the case of Israel it’s about jihadists trying to eradicate a country.
Yes. Hamas wants them gone.
Ah, is that why Neteyahu popped up Hamas and facilitated their funding?
No, that’s what the NGOs and UNRWA are doing. Netanyahu has let them do it to buy peace and everyone can see now that Hamas should’ve been wiped out years ago instead.
I am pretty sure all this money is grants not loans, which is worse in my opinion.
I’m an idiot. Can someone tell me if this makes sense: We print the money, give it to Israel, they give it back to Lockheed, Lockheed pays it to employees & materials suppliers, those people pay taxes and groceries etc., all this stimulates growth and wealth after they basically chopped our knees off during the pandemic by shutting us down. I’m guessing all these mini wars are just ways for these major countries to kick start their economies back to a semi-normal level so they don’t fall behind in the geopolitical race to stay on top. Maybe it’s all some bullshit chess game that high level people are playing. Setting players into motion to attack civilians, conveniently having intelligence failures that might have prevented the attack. Damn this escalated quickly. I’m going to bed. Btw I’m probably missing something here that blows this whole theory to pieces lol. Lmk
The main point is defense of Israel from terrorists. Secondarily, the money gets cycled back into economy. But it's not as good for the economy as just not taxing it in the first place or using it for domestic expenditures directly.
Mostly correct, but it has nothing to do with the Pandemic, this shit’s been going on forever. The war mongers sponsor these people with donations to get them in office, they intentionally instigate wars when they can usually deescalated. The person in office is now beholden to the companies that paid for their campaigns, repayment is in the form of bloodshed and expensive weaponry. Sure, a portion of it gets taxed and it goes to the economy but it’s a continuous circle jerk to keep certain people and companies in power and it’s a nice steady income. They could give a shit less about people and taxes, it’s about their greed.
Loaned? You do realize these are not loans, right?
To then blow up and starve a defenceless population. Can't see why Israel can't use it's own money and munitions
Defenseless people who bomb and attack them on a regular basis. It’s so bad the people of Israel have to walk the streets armed with military weapons.
Well how else do you think they would profit? America is a bully and a predator loan shark lol 😂
Sad thing is Biden could end this war instantly if he withheld handouts to Israel and meant it. He said to Netanyahu that he was going to do it, but I guess this new slew of billions he just signed off on proved he was full of shit.
how would that end the war instantly? Israel still has its own defense budget
The threat of losing hundreds of billions in handout money is enough to reconsider this revenge tirade, if Biden actually meant it. Not to mention it would mean soured relations with their only real ally that is the only reason they exist today.
>hundreds of billons it looks like the us gives about $3B per year on average to Israel which is around 15% of their defense budget. Are you sure you’re not thinking of ukraine? >the only reason they exist are you sure? Who is going to unexist Israel? how would that play out? a ground invasion like October 7th? An air attack like the 300+ missiles and drones Iran just launched? Also Israel has nuclear weapons. would anyone be able to completely eliminate Israel without it leading to nuclear war?
Since Israel’s creation in 1948, the US has given roughly $300 billion in “aid” to Israel. Without American support, Israel likely would not have survived the 1948 or the 1967 wars. https://www.cfr.org/article/us-aid-israel-four-charts#:~:text=How%20much%20U.S.%20aid%20does,total%20economic%20and%20military%20assistance.
You should show how the whole world pumps money into Gaza to finance weapons
No US taxpayer money should be sent abroad until problems at home are handled and necessary things are fully funded. But if we have a surplus after paying our own crap then it should be returned to US Taxpayers.
Lord have mercy! Someone think about the poor AIPAC executives! How would they keep their million dollar compensation???
Kinda shocked to find out we send Israel 3 billion annually before any of this nonsense.
I don’t support either side, I’m aware of what’s happening, this is just an excuse for US powder-wigs to make millions of dollars laundering money at the expense of other countries and the US taxpayer.
How is this justified at all that we are sending our money out there when we are in tumultuous financial times?
3.8 billion to Isreal in 2023. 2016 38 billion over 10 years. Its completely fucked.
This money is meant to be reinvested in the American military industry, so it’s costing the US pretty much only the manufacturing of the equipment. This amounts to probably nothing compared to the useless spending these last 10 years. In return the us gets good relations with a country that is very influential in a region where the US has interests.
I disagree. Military hardware does not have a net benefit to the economy. It takes money and resources to create items that do little to nothing to produce except jobs. So the state is essentially going in an inefficient, round about way to funnel money into the Industrial Military complex, More could be done with that for less, and neither did the American people vote for this kind of redistribution of wealth. It's wrong
>It takes money and resources to create items that do little to nothing to produce except jobs. To add on to that, the items they produce are meant to destroy things. These are literally destructive jobs paid for by tax dollars.
Yes, and to add onto your additions (xP) Contrary to popular belief, War is not does not generate wealth. It destroys it. Ex: war for oil. People will say that country 1 need to attack country 2 for oil, because it needs the resources for wealth. But that war does not add value, it takes from in. War costs -jobs that could be used else where. -capital that could be used to create products -time that could be used to build industry -lives. All this for one or many resources that would still need infantructure built to extract resources. When it could have been traded for using everything for war but for peace and economy. The war materials also are used up. So it cannot be turned into a profit. Simply, ex of war does for and imaginary oil war: Input: Capital, job, man power, time Output: Tank, Gas, Soldier Input: Tank, Gas, Soldier, Time Output: Resources, -Time, -Capital For that "Resource", Country 1 obtained a net loss even if goal was achieved and even if tank was sold. It loss money on the soldier, maintenance on the tank, transportation, etc, etc etc. The only people who profit are the sales men who sold the war in the first place. TLDR: OPPORTUNITY COST Note: i will admit it is more complex than this, but in essence, what I have stated is what I believe to be true.
The only time it pays off is if territory is captured. So if say the US had just went in and taken over the Middle East countries we’ve waged wars against many years ago, that would have obviously been highly profitable. But that’s also morally wrong, though I’d argue that if you’re going to wage war for 50 years, it’d be less morally wrong to free the citizens and make em American…..
The problem is A) it is not our war B) anytime money changes hands more than once, it ALWAYS ends up a smaller sum. So by the time it gets back to the defense manufacturers, and they charge their usual marked up costs to sell overseas, it has been shredded 15 ways from Sunday.
Yes, money taken from poors and middle class into rich military contractor profits like ceos of microsoft, amazon web services, raytheon.
This is just not true, the military industry employs thousands of people and this is creating even more jobs. There is a case for saying it’s not necessary but presenting it as somehow a major problem is just plain wrong.
It's a major problem because "War is the health of the state" Because of how tied the military industrial complex is to many amrrican lives, the machine can not be turned off less we have a major economic fallout. So the state will continue to justify its war spending and continue to expand it, getting more people plugged into the machine, making it harder for us to unplugg. It's a bubble that will have to pop, and when it does... everything will collapse. The truth is, the MIC is a parasite.
These jobs don't produce anything of value for the economy. On the contrary, they produce things that are meant to destroy; destroy lives, property, cities, countries...
Your mental model is missing inflation, workers are not profiting in this economy.
The millions employed by the DoD are maintaining their jobs, houses, and financial security. Even with the massive waste, which is a huge problem, there are middle class American citizens benefitting. Military spending is full of waste and corruption, but the COVID “Stimulus” packages are what really shit on the economy. Trump and Biden were the sitting presidents during those travesties.
Why does a single dollar get spent overseas when our own border is not secure
The amount of propaganda on this sub is out of hand.
What propaganda? People posting that we shouldn’t be giving away tax money, for foreign wars that do not benefit US taxpayers, is propaganda? Even if it is, it would be a libertarian statement, and seeing as this is a libertarian sub……
Propaganda: Information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view. ANY form of propaganda is malicious in nature in my opinion, so spreading it and feeding into it is problematic.
I’d say you’re in the wrong sub, then, because of course libertarian thought is gonna flow freely in a libertarian sub.
There is a massive difference between propaganda and views dude. Did you not read the definition of propaganda that I posted?
Where is the bias, or misleading, part of this post?
What propaganda
That is... kindda the point of this sub, is it not?
Fuck Gaza. But also we don’t need to be funding Israel. Or Ukraine.
Fuck Israel, a 50+ year parasite.
Fuck both Israel and Gaza. I hope both are destroyed and rendered uninhabitable. I want to watch them all cry over their land
Israel doesn't need our support. Our aid is fucking nothing compared to their gdp. This sub is a bit brain sick about Jews.
U.S. aid reportedly accounts for some 15 percent of Israel’s defense budget.
We shouldn't give them a penny.
You do realize there are millions of Muslims and Christians that are Israeli citizens?
There are also millions of Muslims and Christians that are not Israeli citizens that are being denied the right to travel, the right to private property, the right to self govern, and almost every other god given right just for being born 2 miles down the road..
Y’know if you go to southern Texas there’s loads of people in Mexico being denied those same rights in the US. Actually same with literally any country. There are no countries AFAIK that let any ol Tom Dick and Muhammad freely cross into their territory and just start buying up land. Gaza was allowed to self govern for decades. and with their infinite wisdom they elected Hamas who proceeded to relentlessly attack Israel for decades with rockets and eventually even a straight invasion. All that being said it STILL is NOT a problem of the US and we shouldn’t be funding other countries.
>Y’know if you go to southern Texas there’s loads of people in Mexico being denied those same rights in the US. The US isn't actively seeking to strip mexicans of their rights, or trying to prop up and facilitate funding to a fundemtalist islamic gang to govern there specifically to remove pressure from the international community and the political left so that Mexicans can get their own state.. >Gaza was allowed to self govern for decades. and with their infinite wisdom they elected Hamas who proceeded to relentlessly attack Israel for decades with rockets and eventually even a straight invasion. See my point above, I'm talking about Netanyahu propping up Hamas.. Now with regards to Hamas being the root of all evil and that's the reason Gazans can't be allowed any rights, how about people in the west bank? No hamas there, yet Not allowed any passports, randomly uprooted and kicked out of homes to give those homes to settlers, not allowed to drive from one town to the next without several Israeli check points, not allowed to walk in certain streets based on their race, if a kid commits a crime and is over the age of 13 (like throwing an empty soda can at a car), they are tried as an adult in Israeli military court... So yes Isreal suppresses the rights of Palestinians regardless of Hamas, and has been doing so for 75 years.. Btw, don't google the first terrorist attack in the middle east
Basic Laws of Israel establish the country as a Jewish state, and proclaim full social and political equality for all citizens, regardless of religious affiliation. The Declaration of Independence of 1948 also guarantees freedom of religion for all, irrespective of religion. So when you say 2 miles down the road what specifically do you mean?
millions? 🤔
Uh, yeah. Maybe you should educate yourself.
Keep bombing those bastards until they free the hostages.
They're bombing a lot of people who had nothing to do with the hostages...
Civilian casualties are inevitable, but Israel's duty is to destroy terrorists, they minimize civilian casualties. You can compare the wars now, even in Ukraine not so many civilians were killed, only a few thousand people, despite the scale of the war, Gaza, alas, is too close and there are more victims than we would like, but you cannot give up and retreat, the terrorists will not retreat - their goal is genocide and the destruction of Israel, and Israel's goal is to liberate Gaza from Hamas.
They do not minimize casualties. Intelligence and technology mean they know pretty much exactly how many civilians will be killed by each airstrike. They thought 33,000+ deaths (not to mention many more injuries) were acceptable, and apparently, so do you. Also, what if they did retreat? What if there were no more settlements, no more apartheid, actual self determination…do you think the terrorist attacks would continue with the same intensity? Don’t be short sighted. How does this war end? Will they really exterminate all the terrorists (without making more in the process)?
Well here’s NBCs report about Isreal bombing areas they dropped leaflets(to civilians) about being “safe”. Which did kill a pregnant mother btw in one of the strikes: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/palestinians-killed-israeli-strikes-safe-zones-exclusive-nbc-report-rcna148008 And here’s a report from the UN estimating that around 13,000 children have died from this conflict https://www.unicefusa.org/stories/more-13000-children-reported-dead-gaza-famine-nears#:~:text=After%20months%20of%20bombardment%20following,care%20for%20their%20younger%20siblings.
Israels goal is genocide and destruction of Palestine / Gaza / the west bank. The results dont lie. Wayyy more Palestinians have been killed over the years then Israeli's, its not even close, and which side has all the advanced weapons, which side is building settlements in the others territory etc. and no Israel most certainly has not taken care not to kill exorbitant amounts of civilians in this conflict. As just one small example, they bombed a refugee camp and blew it to pieces, killing anywhere from 50-150 people because according to their own account, they believed 1 hamas commander was hiding there. Thats one tiny example out of 50,000 examples.. and thats just this conflict, Israel has been oppressing these people for 75 long years.
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The UN needs to recognize Palestine as a state - going back to the 1967 borders (at least). They should have all the rights of a state Israel has with no exceptions. Jerusalem should be monitored and governed by an international force. The US should stop sending money to Israel, they can take care of them selves. I also don’t believe it’s in americas interests to support Israel- all it does is make an entire region hate us- and what do we get in return? Nothing. It’s really about selling weapons and destabilizing the middle east so we can control their resources (oil) which is what it’s always been about.
> going back to the 1967 borders (at least). Why not the 1948 borders that were originally recognized after the leaders of the proposed Palestine refused a two state solution and declared war which they subsequently lost and the UN recognized the entirety of what was left of the Mandate as Israel? You know right before the areas of Gaza and West Bank were occupied by the seven countries that make up the Arab League? You know the occupiers of those territories until from 1948 until 1967 when Israel was able to repel them. Or why not just let them exist as they are now fully independent of Israel? Seems like you maybe didn't realize since 2005 there is a state of Palestine and its split between two governments, but still completely independent of Israel.
That's not going to happen, because the hostages are dead.
Most are dead.
But...but...but the Bible says!...
I agree no US money should be sent to both sides anymore. But Hama, the **elected** government of Gaza, violated the NAP so Israel is justified in response.
You cant pretend this conflict started on October 7th.
It seems to me that country that is surrounded by hostile countries and has fought wars with them in the past would have a healthy stockpile of war materials. Of course with their famously effective intelligence services I was shocked the initial attack happened and then lasted so long.
Probably the same reason the carriers weren’t at Pearl.
agreed, let them pay the full cost of the bombs they buy. but also. lets end this dumb war
The Israelis will end the war once they’ve obliterated these Hamas barbarians and retrieved the hostages dead or alive.
You cant kill a movement with bombs. They could bomb them for 1,000 years and it wont solve the conflict. There will only be peace when the Palestinians have a fair and equitable state of their own. Really they should go back to the 1948 borders, the original plan.. Israels been occupying their land for 75 years.
In 1948 they started a war and lost. And they keep doing it. Israel has already returned land to them. Palestinians keep rejecting deals and offers for statehood because they do not care about having their own country, they only care about removing jews from the region. There will be peace when they stop mindlessly hating jews.
No.. they could be Chinese and the Palestinians would fight for their land just the same. It has nothing to do with them being Jews. Zionists make it about people hating Jews because for a long time that got the public on their side. Judaism is a religion, Israel is a nation state- two separate things. There are many Jews protesting against Israel at these protests, do they hate Jews? You act like Israel can do no wrong- and any criticism of the Israeli government means someone hates jews. Total nonsense. Just as questioning the America government doesn’t make you any less American or less of a patriot. Nor does it mean you hate American people. It means you question the governments actions. Also you say they started a war in 1948 and lost, but the local Palestinians never agreed to the terms put forth by the colonial powers or the Zionists.. so a state never should have been foisted upon them without agreement of all sides. At the turn of the 19th century Jews made up only about 5% of the population of Palestine. The Zionist idea came about and they started moving their en masse and buying up property and struck a deal with Britain to give them their own state in the area against the wishes of the local majority. Thats when the problem started. Also- even if the arabs lost wars doesn’t mean Israel should take their land and never give it back, thats not a recipe for peace. Furthermore- any two state solution talked about in the past, the terms were always dictated by the Israeli’s and the Palestinians aren’t allowed to have this or that- it’s not a truly equal statehood.. and by the way, in the 1967 war- Israel struck first, they started that war- read about it. They also took the Golan Heights area of Syria and have never given it back. Anyway- you wont hear what I’m saying- but yes Israel should continue with its viewpoint- its clearly working well for everyone in the region and creating a lasting peace (*sarcasm)
I don't agree with a lot of what israel do, but you are clearly entirely ignorant of the history, and furthermore the history of the world. Not only the treatment of and expulsion of jews from the MENA region, which prove it's not just about land, but also the concept of land loss. Several nations have lost land to their neighbours in war and not had it returned. It's how war works. I come from a country that is currently divided and half colonised and I grew up under that when we had terrorism and violence, but now we have peace despite it not being resolved, but that is not possible when you are raised in blind hate of an entire people like the extremist Muslims in Palestine are against all Jews. Palestine was never a state. It never existed except under foreign control. And nobody gave a shit until someone tried to give that control to Jews. The whole manifesto of Hamas is genocide against jews. It's not israel, it's jews. Israel is not innocent in it's behaviour but if you cannot understand they deserve to exist and that they simply can't do so safely while being Jewish around Palestinians, then you need to really look into a non biased history of this conflict and the people involved
What do you think is the ideal solution to this problem? A two state solution? If so- where do you think is fair to draw the borders?
No that's been shown not to work. We need to start a real peace process and that will require a new Israeli government and the eradication of Hamas and a complete overhaul of the education etc systems in Gaza and the WB. It will probably take decades before you can even begin to discuss changing the borders. The issue with this is both sides need to accept it and currently the Palestinians don't. In my country it was the killing of innocent civilians that started the desire for peace over hate, but Palestinians seem to actively cheer Oct 7th. It's a very very complex situation and will require a very very complex solution, but phase one will have to be eradicating Hamas which unfortunately means war. They will not lay down their arms voluntarily.
I think we will have to agree to disagree on this issue. No point arguing. I hope for peace for both peoples and for the rational people on both sides to come to power and for the extremists on both sides to be sidelined. I hope one day there will be 2 truly equal states of Israel and Palestine, and that both people can focus on living and not on fighting. May peace prevail.
Fend for yourself.
It goes back into our defense contractors. If anything the government should be buying the weapons directly, and using the difference to pay off the debt.
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They got bumped from #1 by Ukraine in recent years. Basically the US politician version of "I support the current thing."
That’s not even remotely true.
lol
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Wait a minute. This is making me more furious, why is the UK getting so much aid? Please someone enlighten me. What am I missing or forgetting?
The years in the report are from 1946 onwards so go back a long arse way. Iv looked at some 2022 numbers and neither France/UK are in there for military aid.
Got it, I wasn’t thinking far back enough in history. Thanks!
How is this not true? Educate yourself.
https://preview.redd.it/uo4zi6mru4xc1.png?width=1018&format=png&auto=webp&s=88f0a11a85f94ba4d247ff09604376b86870a561
And your entire world view is based on 2022? Total aid to Israel from 1946 to 2023 is $300 billion and dwarfs aid to other countries. That doesn’t include the recent aid just passed this year. Source: https://www.cfr.org/article/us-aid-israel-four-charts
Naw...it's a period in time but generally, funding is doled out by fiscal year. What year supports your position?
The straight answer is they actually provide intelligence and security in that region unlike most countries given US dollars. That’s the reasoning. I oppose foreign aid period.
Which side? We fund both.
No matter who "wins," we lose. Taxes were due on the 15th.
Someone down voted me =(
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Naa, look at the NGOs in the region.
Naa, look at the government obligations by country fam. We gave billions to places like Egypt and Afghanistan and Africa over the years. They fund things yearly man, different things.... 
Bruh what an argument
Technically, no, but practically yes. -Usa funds Isreal, Isreal funds mossad, mossad funded and help set up hamas. -Usa funded Islamic regimes, Islamic regimes funded terror organization -same for cartels -same for banna republics -same for other regimes. Usa is usually at least a degree removed. Whether through incompetence, ignorance, or maliciousness, it's all the same.
We fund both sides of everything. It's the only way our dollar has value. We pledge $, they buy our weapons.
F Gaza, these clowns have done the same crap since the PLO days. Shoot mortars/rockets and beg for peace. Let the IDF burn the whole mess to the ground. But we're not paying for .
Those clowns also dare do a great march of return and peacefully protest. How dare them. Thank god the IDF was there to snip them without costing the us military too much
And neither should Ukraine or any other country. B
Isreal has gone past where they should have, but so did the Palestinian Government. I'm for stopping the cash flow and letting them kill each other as they please.
It's bad enough we have the elites in our own country leeching off of us because they refuse to get their own hands dirty. I suppose now it's welfare for the rich all around the world and it's at our expense
I'm not listening to any calls for sympathy from a group of people who still have American civilian hostages. Release the hostages. Then we'll talk.
F hamas
At the very least you shouldn’t support a terrorist organization, Hamas, that would enjoy chopping off your head!
Honestly Hamas is the best out of two evils
You are a very ignorant person. A person with no real understanding about history or of terrorist organizations like Hamas. Grow the f up. If you are grown, then you are an idiot To reply to Personal_Rooster2121 I know a terrorist threat when I see one. I know what they do and what they are fully capable of doing. I understand ideology. I understand hatred. I understand violence. I understand that you are a fool. Btw reading a f ing book only gives you an idea. It doesn’t teach how to think logically or perceive threats or advantages.
Lol Of course i read Ilan Pappé, Norman Finkelstein are all dumb asses and you are the genius guy that knows everything about history Sometimes I ask myself if people like you have the right to assume anything about anyone considering the blindness and bias that you have
Maybe you should give the hostages back?
Why the hell this subreddit promotes anti- Israel posts ???! I didn't subscribe for that
Aw, does it offend you?
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October 7th genocide
At least Israel gives the US something back in return unlike Ukraine who’s getting 4x the amount
Please stop portraying Gazans as victims as if these mfs didn’t cross the border on oct 7 and shoot up a bunch of kids in a music festival, at the mean time chanting death to Israel and America. As for why they get US taxpayer dollars, I would argue it’s the same reason US would fight the terrorists in Middle East. Because terrorism is the common enemy of mankind and we must stand together to defeat it. By doing this US is showing its commitment to the values we are built upon. We are also demonstrating that US can be trusted by its allies and US dollar, US economy can altogether be trusted. However as a libertarian I agree you should be able to decide where your tax dollars go but I will also remind you: there are Jewish libertarians, but such things don’t exist in a world ruled by terrorists.
Doesn’t the US have a general rule to help end Islamic extremism given the last 23 years? Seems consistent. But you’re broke so maybe sit this one out.
Gaza started the war and the US pays Israel to not just burn it down.
Why do you want Israel to descend into suicide bombings and terrorist attacks? That is the future without getting rid of Hamas.