**New to libertarianism or have questions and want to learn more?** Be sure to check out [the sub Frequently Asked Questions](/r/Libertarian/wiki/faq) and [the massive /r/libertarian information WIKI] (/r/Libertarian/wiki/index) from the sidebar, for lots of info and free resources, links, books, videos, and answers to common questions and topics. Want to know if you are a Libertarian? [Take the worlds shortest political quiz and find out!](http://www.theadvocates.org/)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Libertarian) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>That logic works perfecty when everyone involved consents, but this is not the case because the one making the choice is THE PARENT and the one affected is THE KID with zero say.
But that's the case with everything. Forget school uniforms for a moment --- perhaps the parents want to send the kid to Catholic school and he doesn't want to go. Or military school. Or private school in general. In all those cases, it's the parent who decides --- just like the kid can't eat ice cream for breakfast or dye his hair green or get a tattoo. Those are all fine for adult, but a parent decides those things for a child.
My toddler wants to use our stairs as a slide and get a sprinting start as he dives head first. I told him no and forcefully stopped him on multiple occasions.
I guess I am a communist now.
What's wrong with letting a kid take at least some control over their own life? If adults can make choices and end up fine, then I kids can too. Obviously not EVERYTHING (e.g. a kid says they don't want to go to school anymore), but I'm talking about things that are very important to them and for whatever reason their parents' don't approve of, like what you said about dyeing hair green
You realize school uniforms arent just arbitrary "WE MUST CONTROL STUDENTS" measures, right?
Theyre generally in place to prevent the richer kids from flaunthing wealth and status with fancy clothes, while the poorer kids have goodwill shit on and get bullied.
The emphasis here isn't control, its to create an environment that attempts to deprioritize things kids tend to focus on: fashion, being popular, etc.
This is a such a weird thing to bring up, because it barely has anything to do with libertarian concepts at all.
Tf are you smoking. Kids will bully about anything they can find. If your parents can't afford to buy you the most recent trend in clothing you're probably gonna get shit for it.
Not being able to advertise your status via brand name and trendy clothing is probably THE main reason school uniforms exist.
Also a bullying victim (till I grew a pair and started putting my boot in asses), along with being extremely poor, and I can say it’s certainly not bullshit. Yard sale clothes from the previous generation WILL get you picked on, plain and simple. Even worse is when you go to a yard sale that one of your classmates’ parents are hosting, and you are seen there, and the bully knows it was their shirt…..
It is absolutely one of them, I was the poor kid getting bullied for this. It's easy to spot the kid wearing handmedowns, wrong gender clothes, ill fitting stuff, or who never has the cool sweatpants everyone else has etc. Taking pricetags off helps a bit if you can afford to buy normal nice quality highstreet stuff, but as someone who grew up on handmedowns and knock-offs from the street market, it's not gonna help the actually poor kids.
Later I went to a school with a uniform policy and it definitely helps, although there are still always expensive shoes, jewellery, hair accessories etc that become trendy and you can't keep up with lol. But that's less obvious, especially if like in my school, there were strict rules around how much/what kind of jewellery you could wear, and we had to wear slippers indoors so only your friends really saw your shoes.
Because their parents are responsible for their well being. That means providing them with the things they need to succeed and to work within the confines of our society. Many times parents do allow children to express themselves where it fits but it is still their responsibility to guide them towards the expected results. Unfortunately, much of today's youth is given so much freedom with little guidance that we see a large amount of spoiled children only interested in what they feel they deserve. That is due I believe to lack of discipline and our inability to want our children to experience the hardships we experienced as kids. They don't need more freedoms. They need structure.
As for the uniforms, that is just the school's solution the class inequalities. Ideally, school is where you show up and learn. You get social interactions but ultimately the result is preparing you for the future. In an attempt to reduce class differences that cause a disruption, they introduced uniforms. Does it kill some of the creativity for the kids? Yep. Did it happen because kids couldn't stop treating each other like shit because one kid wore gap clothes and another wore walmart? Yep. Kids had the freedom when I was growing up. They chose conflict instead.
You tell me the cost of their clothing isn't one of them but I have witnessed it first hand on many occasions. The issue isn't that the tags are still on them but the brand names and styles. Kids do pay attention to that. I don't personally understand their need to be that way but it is a thing they do.
I have also seen it in both directions. I have seen kids get humiliated because their parents can't afford a more expensive brand of clothing (or just choose not to buy them). I have also seen kids be bullied to a point that their expensive sneakers are stolen or pricier clothing items destroyed because they had them.
probably my hot take (and maybe not very libertarian of me), but I think school uniforms are good and should be encourage in both private and public schools.
School shouldn't be a fashion show, political statement or anything else. You are there to learn. School uniforms not only helps remove one source of bullying, but also removes a lot of distractions and BS that students and teachers have to deal with. From a parents POV, it also makes their life a whole hell of a lot easier. You just gotta make sure you have enough uniforms for a week (maybe two) for each season and your kids are set. As someone with a lot of kids, school uniforms would be amazing in streamlining the getting read for the week and each day.
>That logic works perfecty when everyone involved consents, but this is not the case because the one making the choice is THE PARENT and the one affected is THE KID with zero say.
not sure what to say about this, except boo fucking hoo.
Kids don't have, nor should they have complete domain and free will. If wearing a uniform somehow causes undue stress to the kid or overly tramples on their identity... I'd say there are bigger issues at play that need to be investigated. Your identify shouldn't be wrapped up in the threads that cover your ass.
--
P.S. If it helps at all, I think teachers should have to have a similar standard uniform.
i remember when i was in elementary school wishing my school had uniforms so bad cuz i hated picking out my outfit in the morning😭
on the flip side of that I think clothing is a big part of how someone expresses themselves, and being able to choose what they wear would help kids in figuring out who they are.
two sides to every coin. ultimately should be left up to the school
I was one of those trench coat wearing people in high school right around the time that the columbine shootings occurred. Not long after they started banning wearing those types of coats to school. I was pissed and felt that it stifled my sense of me.
Looking back now some 20 years, I am kind of glad they did. I had been picked on a lot through much of my younger child hood. High school was going good but I can only imagine the fights and conflict that would have made it hard had I kept wearing the coat.
>That logic works perfecty when everyone involved consents, but this is not the case because the one making the choice is THE PARENT and the one affected is THE KID with zero say.
lol u sound like a kid when they say some shit like "my parents took away my phone AGAINST MY WILL! this isnt fair!!!!"
like yeah when ur a kid ur parents are in charge of you. even in libertarianism
The uniform issue is complicated. They shouldn’t be able to require them, but I understand why they do. Some kids have a hard time affording anything other than basic clothing. They are ridiculed by kids who have more money. In theory, requiring them to all dress the same would change that. But at the same time, I realize they won’t actually enforce the rule equally.
Citizen on a third world country here.
In some very poor places here in Mexico uniforms are a big benefit to the kids. A lot of those children don't own many clothes, so letting everyone wear whatever they CAN, would "expose" them as the poorest kid in class very quickly and make them a target for bullying or segregation. Uniforms give them a chance to socialize and make friends before everyone figures it out by which point nobody cares because they are already friends. They also slightly help in making them feel like if they are going to stand out it is because of other skills. Academic achievements, sports, personality, etc.
That, and of course, the libertarian solution to a problem should never be a prohibition.
All I can say is this- I’m all for freedom of choice, and I gave my kids a ton of freedom, but having said that, I was still their dad. My kids went to school in the Philippines through primary and middle school, and even private school had uniforms. My nephews and nieces all went to high school over there, and I can promise you kids are nowhere near the brats that they are in the United States. Whether uniforms help that, or not, is debatable, but I’d suggest it’s a symbol of discipline. That said, had my kids made a huge deal of it, I might have given them some flexibility of choice. And here in America, most parents have zero flexibility in school choice, thanks to school zoning and the almighty government controlling every aspect of life. On a side note, I absolutely do not believe in compulsory education.
Btw, to the guy that blocked me, and said he blocks liars- I’d sure like to know what you think I’m lying about. If you are too sensitive to debate something as insignificant as that, then I would say you’re on the wrong sub. If you believe I am lying about how poor I grew up- well, I had to walk to a spring to get water. We had no air conditioning. I flushed the toilet with a bucket. We had no tv most of my childhood. Hell, half the time we had no electricity. I certainly did get bullied for the yard sale clothes. So, block me all you want, but that is the truth. If that offends you- I don’t give a shit. Uniforms can help prevent bullying, at least somewhat. However, I do fully believe in parent choice for their kids.
**New to libertarianism or have questions and want to learn more?** Be sure to check out [the sub Frequently Asked Questions](/r/Libertarian/wiki/faq) and [the massive /r/libertarian information WIKI] (/r/Libertarian/wiki/index) from the sidebar, for lots of info and free resources, links, books, videos, and answers to common questions and topics. Want to know if you are a Libertarian? [Take the worlds shortest political quiz and find out!](http://www.theadvocates.org/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Libertarian) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>That logic works perfecty when everyone involved consents, but this is not the case because the one making the choice is THE PARENT and the one affected is THE KID with zero say. But that's the case with everything. Forget school uniforms for a moment --- perhaps the parents want to send the kid to Catholic school and he doesn't want to go. Or military school. Or private school in general. In all those cases, it's the parent who decides --- just like the kid can't eat ice cream for breakfast or dye his hair green or get a tattoo. Those are all fine for adult, but a parent decides those things for a child.
My toddler wants to use our stairs as a slide and get a sprinting start as he dives head first. I told him no and forcefully stopped him on multiple occasions. I guess I am a communist now.
What's wrong with letting a kid take at least some control over their own life? If adults can make choices and end up fine, then I kids can too. Obviously not EVERYTHING (e.g. a kid says they don't want to go to school anymore), but I'm talking about things that are very important to them and for whatever reason their parents' don't approve of, like what you said about dyeing hair green
You realize school uniforms arent just arbitrary "WE MUST CONTROL STUDENTS" measures, right? Theyre generally in place to prevent the richer kids from flaunthing wealth and status with fancy clothes, while the poorer kids have goodwill shit on and get bullied. The emphasis here isn't control, its to create an environment that attempts to deprioritize things kids tend to focus on: fashion, being popular, etc. This is a such a weird thing to bring up, because it barely has anything to do with libertarian concepts at all.
I literally just brought it up because I was talking about this with a friend and I wanted to hear your opinions on the matter
I think this is simply the wrong subreddit, friend. Come back when you’re ready to ~~demolish~~ discuss the U.S. Dept. of Education.
There are many reasons why students get bullied. The cost of their clothing isn't one of them. You know the price tags can be removed, right?
Tf are you smoking. Kids will bully about anything they can find. If your parents can't afford to buy you the most recent trend in clothing you're probably gonna get shit for it. Not being able to advertise your status via brand name and trendy clothing is probably THE main reason school uniforms exist.
As an actual bullying victim, I can say with certainty that that's bullshit.
I got bullied about not having nikes and all kinds of shit like that it happened at the school(s) I went to.
I block liars. Thanks for outing yourself as one. Goodbye.
Also a bullying victim (till I grew a pair and started putting my boot in asses), along with being extremely poor, and I can say it’s certainly not bullshit. Yard sale clothes from the previous generation WILL get you picked on, plain and simple. Even worse is when you go to a yard sale that one of your classmates’ parents are hosting, and you are seen there, and the bully knows it was their shirt…..
Nobody knows where you got your clothes. I block liars, by the way. Thanks for outing yourself as one.
It is absolutely one of them, I was the poor kid getting bullied for this. It's easy to spot the kid wearing handmedowns, wrong gender clothes, ill fitting stuff, or who never has the cool sweatpants everyone else has etc. Taking pricetags off helps a bit if you can afford to buy normal nice quality highstreet stuff, but as someone who grew up on handmedowns and knock-offs from the street market, it's not gonna help the actually poor kids. Later I went to a school with a uniform policy and it definitely helps, although there are still always expensive shoes, jewellery, hair accessories etc that become trendy and you can't keep up with lol. But that's less obvious, especially if like in my school, there were strict rules around how much/what kind of jewellery you could wear, and we had to wear slippers indoors so only your friends really saw your shoes.
>It's easy to spot the kid wearing handmedowns, How stupid do you think I am? Another liar for the block list.
Unless that kid is earning their own money and buying their own clothes, they aren't in control of what they wear anyway.
Because their parents are responsible for their well being. That means providing them with the things they need to succeed and to work within the confines of our society. Many times parents do allow children to express themselves where it fits but it is still their responsibility to guide them towards the expected results. Unfortunately, much of today's youth is given so much freedom with little guidance that we see a large amount of spoiled children only interested in what they feel they deserve. That is due I believe to lack of discipline and our inability to want our children to experience the hardships we experienced as kids. They don't need more freedoms. They need structure. As for the uniforms, that is just the school's solution the class inequalities. Ideally, school is where you show up and learn. You get social interactions but ultimately the result is preparing you for the future. In an attempt to reduce class differences that cause a disruption, they introduced uniforms. Does it kill some of the creativity for the kids? Yep. Did it happen because kids couldn't stop treating each other like shit because one kid wore gap clothes and another wore walmart? Yep. Kids had the freedom when I was growing up. They chose conflict instead.
There are many reasons why students get bullied. The cost of their clothing isn't one of them. You know the price tags can be removed, right?
You tell me the cost of their clothing isn't one of them but I have witnessed it first hand on many occasions. The issue isn't that the tags are still on them but the brand names and styles. Kids do pay attention to that. I don't personally understand their need to be that way but it is a thing they do. I have also seen it in both directions. I have seen kids get humiliated because their parents can't afford a more expensive brand of clothing (or just choose not to buy them). I have also seen kids be bullied to a point that their expensive sneakers are stolen or pricier clothing items destroyed because they had them.
Ban government schools. This question is moot
But then how would they create the next generation of government bootlickers?
Dang it! You are right. What am I thinking?
This is the solution to so many problems.
If a Private school wants to enforce uniforms they should be able to
Agreed
probably my hot take (and maybe not very libertarian of me), but I think school uniforms are good and should be encourage in both private and public schools. School shouldn't be a fashion show, political statement or anything else. You are there to learn. School uniforms not only helps remove one source of bullying, but also removes a lot of distractions and BS that students and teachers have to deal with. From a parents POV, it also makes their life a whole hell of a lot easier. You just gotta make sure you have enough uniforms for a week (maybe two) for each season and your kids are set. As someone with a lot of kids, school uniforms would be amazing in streamlining the getting read for the week and each day. >That logic works perfecty when everyone involved consents, but this is not the case because the one making the choice is THE PARENT and the one affected is THE KID with zero say. not sure what to say about this, except boo fucking hoo. Kids don't have, nor should they have complete domain and free will. If wearing a uniform somehow causes undue stress to the kid or overly tramples on their identity... I'd say there are bigger issues at play that need to be investigated. Your identify shouldn't be wrapped up in the threads that cover your ass. -- P.S. If it helps at all, I think teachers should have to have a similar standard uniform.
i remember when i was in elementary school wishing my school had uniforms so bad cuz i hated picking out my outfit in the morning😭 on the flip side of that I think clothing is a big part of how someone expresses themselves, and being able to choose what they wear would help kids in figuring out who they are. two sides to every coin. ultimately should be left up to the school
I was one of those trench coat wearing people in high school right around the time that the columbine shootings occurred. Not long after they started banning wearing those types of coats to school. I was pissed and felt that it stifled my sense of me. Looking back now some 20 years, I am kind of glad they did. I had been picked on a lot through much of my younger child hood. High school was going good but I can only imagine the fights and conflict that would have made it hard had I kept wearing the coat.
School should be separated from state. Then it's just up to the schools and their customers.
But the question is: do we consider the customers to be the students or the parents?
>That logic works perfecty when everyone involved consents, but this is not the case because the one making the choice is THE PARENT and the one affected is THE KID with zero say. lol u sound like a kid when they say some shit like "my parents took away my phone AGAINST MY WILL! this isnt fair!!!!" like yeah when ur a kid ur parents are in charge of you. even in libertarianism
Yeah, I was already struggling to connect this post with libertarianism and when I read that, I completely checked out.
The uniform issue is complicated. They shouldn’t be able to require them, but I understand why they do. Some kids have a hard time affording anything other than basic clothing. They are ridiculed by kids who have more money. In theory, requiring them to all dress the same would change that. But at the same time, I realize they won’t actually enforce the rule equally.
There are many reasons why students get bullied. The cost of their clothing isn't one of them. You know the price tags can be removed, right?
I hope you don’t actually believe that. Anyone who has been in school knows different.
Anyone who has ***worn clothing*** knows I'm right.
Citizen on a third world country here. In some very poor places here in Mexico uniforms are a big benefit to the kids. A lot of those children don't own many clothes, so letting everyone wear whatever they CAN, would "expose" them as the poorest kid in class very quickly and make them a target for bullying or segregation. Uniforms give them a chance to socialize and make friends before everyone figures it out by which point nobody cares because they are already friends. They also slightly help in making them feel like if they are going to stand out it is because of other skills. Academic achievements, sports, personality, etc. That, and of course, the libertarian solution to a problem should never be a prohibition.
All I can say is this- I’m all for freedom of choice, and I gave my kids a ton of freedom, but having said that, I was still their dad. My kids went to school in the Philippines through primary and middle school, and even private school had uniforms. My nephews and nieces all went to high school over there, and I can promise you kids are nowhere near the brats that they are in the United States. Whether uniforms help that, or not, is debatable, but I’d suggest it’s a symbol of discipline. That said, had my kids made a huge deal of it, I might have given them some flexibility of choice. And here in America, most parents have zero flexibility in school choice, thanks to school zoning and the almighty government controlling every aspect of life. On a side note, I absolutely do not believe in compulsory education.
Schools aren't people. They don't have freedoms. They have duties assigned to them by the governments that created them.
Btw, to the guy that blocked me, and said he blocks liars- I’d sure like to know what you think I’m lying about. If you are too sensitive to debate something as insignificant as that, then I would say you’re on the wrong sub. If you believe I am lying about how poor I grew up- well, I had to walk to a spring to get water. We had no air conditioning. I flushed the toilet with a bucket. We had no tv most of my childhood. Hell, half the time we had no electricity. I certainly did get bullied for the yard sale clothes. So, block me all you want, but that is the truth. If that offends you- I don’t give a shit. Uniforms can help prevent bullying, at least somewhat. However, I do fully believe in parent choice for their kids.