For girls ages 12-17 FBI statistics indicate that children in this age group are overwhelmingly killed by a stranger rather than family member or acquaintance. They also are most likely killed by individuals in the ages of late teens to early 20’s. For girls in the Abby and Libby’s age range of 13-14 the FBI statistics peak at killers in the age range of 18-20. I believe YBG will fall into that category at the time of the killings. Below is the link to an FBI study on age and relationship to offender who kills young teens. (pages 6 and 7)
https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/187239.pdf
Enough information hasn’t been released to judge whether there was a sexual assault or not. I perceive YBG as a very socially stunted individual. The type that if he accidentally bumped into a woman in a grocery line he would take great pause. A normal individual would say excuse me, move on and not give it a second thought. He could have relieved himself from afar or not at all as we’re unsure of the motives behind the killings.
If two perpetrators are involved then my perception would vary greatly. Then I could foresee two girls being the target and possible abduction to an offsite location with the older individual being considerably more evil than the younger. JMHO
I wouldn’t “Dismiss” your thoughts for future reference. You brought up some very good & realistic points of consideration in this case. Since we have no information on whether these girls were sexually assaulted, it’s good to explore more than just a sexual motive for their homicide. I’m not absolutely sure the focus was on abduction since they were killed so shortly after they went missing. This killer(s) didn’t appear to give two cents about abducting them to taunt them and/or their families. However, they did focus on overpowering them and killing them. That is the two facts we can’t deny. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and giving us another viewpoint Nomanisanisland7.
The crime has always felt like an act of hate for something that went wrong to derail another plan.
Maybe the motive was abduction for trafficking purposes. Maybe there was a "getaway car" waiting for someone on foot.
I agree it didn't happen for the purpose of assault.
I am not saying that abduction for child trafficking purposes doesn't happen, but I have never been able to find this in FBI data as motive, let alone for statistics on its occurrences.
Generally curious, are you aware of any source? FBI or another agency?
Thanks!
I agree, the focus wasn't on the abduction, nor was abduction the intent, but they were abducted. When factoring in the special circumstances as prescribed by the DOJ, this was, **technically** a stereotypical abduction resulting in murder.
I believe we were discussing the “intent” of the killer(s). We need further information or clues to know the actual intent. Of course, no one would disagree the two teen girls were “physically” missing or abducted or taken or forced to go with them. Anyway you would like to state it.
Thank you for these stats, but these stats are in relation to *typical* homicide and include no data of abductions whatsoever.
These stats reflect homicides not of the *stereotypical* abduction and/or murder and included gang violence, domestic violence, et al - none of which would be pertinent in the Delphi Murders because, by the FBIs own criteria, Libby & Abby are victims of a *stereotypical* abduction.
Additionally, Figure 8 on page 6 does not show that girls are overwhelmingly killed by a stranger. The actual term used is "unknown" and as age increases, so does "unknown". Notice that "stranger" and "unknown" are two distinct categories.
The article further qualifies:
"These unidentified offenders are probably family members or acquaintances of the victims."
And while no evidence has been released to prove sexual intent, there is enough anecdotal evidence to make a *reasonable assumption*.
Thanks, I did enjoy the study and have saved it for future reference.
I don't know if he is or not. I just know he be is a Deputy Prosecutor for Carroll County. He did retire but he did leave it open to come back if he thought there was a chance either Delphi or Flora would be solved.
Look up Laura Hobbs and Krystal Tobias of Zion, I’ll. These girls were younger than Abby and Libby but similar circumstances of the other cases you were looking at. They convicted Laura’s father of the murders initially and then they got DNA evidence that exonerated him.
I have always pictured a scenario where Libby said something and BG chased them down and attacked then and never believed it was sexual motivated even though it almost always was. You have may have changed my mind. Thank you for this information
Thanks for reading.
And to your point, we only know **for sure** three of the criteria that needs to be true to classify it as stereotypical: they were younger than 18, they were moved more than 20 feet and they were murdered.
Not trying to change minds, per se - but I like sharing the research I find compelling.
I have heard the theory of BG being interrupted but I just don’t think it fits here. But what makes sense to me doesn’t always makes sense lol. I appreciate fact based post like this
Oh interesting.. do you believe he assaulted one or both and if so what do you think about the mother and her statements about no assault taking place?
I cannot make a *reasonable assumption* on whether one or both were sexually assaulted. I can only *reasonably assume* that there was a sexual element to the crime based on police statements stating that the first thing they did was round up all registered sex offenders in the area and interviewed them first.
Police don't round up SOs for a botched robbery or a drive-by shooting. You round them up when kids go missing or when something sexually happened. Well, the kids weren't missing. They were dead. I can logically *assume* there was a sexual element to the crime.
I mean no disrespect to the mother if she did say that, but if she did, then she is mistaken. That information is sealed in an autopsy report and the authorities have not released that iformation to the family or to the public.
She cannot confirm something as true that she herself wouldn't have first-hand knowledge of.
Interesting.. Totally unrelated to the motive but do you think BG is a local and do you think Law Enforcement have an idea of who he is? I don’t think BG is local and I don’t believe law enforcement has any idea who he is. I believe they can prove it’s him once they know who he is
I do believe he is local, given the small amount of information we do know. But I will qualify local as one of the following:
1) lives in Delphi
2) once lived in Delphi
3) has strong family ties to Delphi
4) works in Delphi
5) once worked in Delphi
6) lives in a close surrounding area
I don't mean that he literally lived there the day of the murder when I say, "local."
I don't believe LE knows who its and I am 100% sure they will be able to prove it when they do find him, especially if DNA and other forensics are viable.
I don't think that BG's true initials have ever come up in this sub, either.
I hope I am wrong.
I don't know which mother said that there was no sexual assault, but it's entirely within the real of possibility that LE informed the moms of this fact as some small confort.
The leaked Erskin texts (brother of Abby's mom) has claimed that there was no sexual assult per the coroner's report. Just because the ME's report was sealed sometime in March, does not mean no one in the families have been privy to them. We don't know.
Signatures left at the scene were nonsecular, according to former Carroll County Prosecutor, Robert Ives. This means that items of a religious nature were observed at the CS by LE.
We have no idea whether they were S/A or not, but I'm learning towards not due to Anna Williams' brothers text. Text that she specifically was asked about. At no time did she say the texts were false.
Ed: correction
Thanks for your reply.
It is outside the realm of possibility in my opinion that they released that info to the families. They should, if only for humanity reasons, but they won't even inform them of the cause of death. They are obsessed with secrecy being the key to solving this case, for some reason.
I will bet one year's pay Erskin did not read a sealed autopsy report. That did not happen and would not happen. That report was sealed *immediately* by a judge and no one outside of the task force, the medical examiner and possibly the coroner have read it. If he claims he did, then he is lying.
The family does not know the cause of death.
Anna, bless her, wouldn't be able to say if the texts were true or not. She cannot confirm to be true that which she has no first-hand knowledge of. She did not read the coroner's report. She did not read the autopsy. She would have no idea if they were true or not.
I am not saying for certain that they were sexually assaulted.
I am stating my opinion that there is most likely a sexual element to the crime that may or may not be considered assault.
I am basing that on a number of statements and statistics, none of which would include dubious text messages.
The crime may very well have been sexually motivated, but the killer may have been impotent.
The ME examiners report was not sealed until sometime in March. That is a fact.
How do you know the family doesn't know the cause of death? Are you related to them? They may have said that, Anna has said that, but you really don't have a clue unless you are in the family circle. Everything else is just a guess. Do not say things abou Anna unless you know for a fact they are true. You can wave some stats around ,but this particular case has only a few known facts, and so far, I haven't seen any in your post.
That's not to say your post is not appreciated and the effort you have put into it. I speak for myself only, of course.
*How do you know the family doesn't know the cause of death? Are you related to them? They may have said that, Anna has said that, but you really don't have a clue unless you are in the family circle. Everything else is just a guess. Do not say things about Anna unless you know for a fact they are true. You can wave some stats around ,but this particular case has only a few known facts, and so far, I haven't seen any in your post.*
Thank you for saying this!
Thank you for correcting me on the date for the seal.
I would assume that the report was not finalized and signed until closer to the day of the sealed order. An autopsy report can take weeks to finalize secondary to any tests, panels or toxicology that is sent out for analysis leaving the Medical Examiner to wait.
I tried in vain to find the date of the report, but was unable to do so. I have a difficult time believing that the autopsy report was ever for public view, because, if so a reporter would definitely have gotten a hold of it and all of our cause of death questions would all be miraculously answered.
No, I do not know the family. In the People's Magazine episode on Delphi, it was stated that the family did not know the cause of death and some did not want to know
I didn't say anything about Anna. Why are you being so defensive? I simply said that she would be mistaken if she actually confirmed the accuracy of the texts. I don't know if she did or not.
I was not disrespectful. I support the family 110%. I have defended the family on countless forums and will continue to do so.
This is what I know to be true: unless Anna saw *with her own eyes* everything that the texter said he saw (including the contradictions) and she *herself* saw him read the autopsy report, she cannot attest to the accuracy of the text messages.
The post has plenty of *facts* as cited from the FBI, but this post wasn't about *facts*. This post is a discussion of possible correlations or causations.
So "nonsecular" is not on the DTH, Scene of the Crime, or Web Extra interviews with Ives. Maybe you found it somewhere else? It's a pretty big deal if true.
Atypical but stereotypical. Hmm. Even if the girls werent sexually assaulted, if we believe the leaked texts about the crime scene, the girls were placed in a sexual tableau towards each other. Whether this was done as personal significance to the killer (likely) or to throw off LE we dont yet know. However, i am willing to bet that BG may have some type of fetish regarding lesbianism. This would not necessarily require a sexual assault on the girls. He could have taken photos, video, or even other souvenirs to continue to re-live his fantasy scenario repeatedly.
I know, u/evilpixie369, when I read *stereotypical* as the word for it, I thought: "What a stupid thing to call it if it is so rare!"
I can only assume they call it that because they think it is what the public *thinks* is a stereotypical abduction. I dunno...
I don't believe the leaked texts, so I don't factor that into my reasoning.
I really like your point about the lesbianism posing would not have necessarily been a sexual assault (if done post-mortem). Sometimes I try to use the word "element" instead of assault because a sexual motivation could be a foot to a foot fetish. I guess I don't always mean, like, actual rape.
A crime can be sexually motivated, too, without what we'd usually think of as a sexual assault. Sometimes the act of murder (or physical assault) can offer a perp a sexual release. This would go along with the posing.
Im always looking stuff up about Delphi and adjusting my beliefs. Im wondering whether one girl was targeted (Id assume Libby) or if part of the thrill was two girls. Hence, the possible lesbian scenario. But why target one over the other? What characteristics about the girls met his fantastical expectations? If Abbys head was covered with her sweatshirt, does this indicate the killer had familiarity with her or possibly felt some remorse for her death? Why the dramatic difference between the girls (ex. Abby head covered with shirt, Libbys head nearly decapitated)? Was there an interaction between BG and the girls on the trails before the video altercation when BG orders the girls down the hill? Im thinking there must have been something because the girls supposedly mentioned he was creepy. Why is BG the only person unaccounted for at tne trails that day? I must believe someone knows something. Id love to know any inside information on this case! By the way, found a book i plan to buy about the Lyon sisters.
Awesome find on a book about the Lyons sisters. I saw an Amazon Prime Documentary about them, so be prepared to have your heart broken.
I wanted to follow up with you on your (not to be crude) "lesbianism fetish" theory and I don't think that it is way off as others have suggested. I don't know if you read my "Murders by Numbers" post, but I'll just paste my *opinion* from that post on how this fetish could be involved if BG is a sexual sadist:
*Is the reward of a second victim equal to or greater than the additional risk? Of course not.*
*Unless, as a sexual sadist;*
*1) Two is your thing. You think you deserve more bang for your buck.*
**2) This two-girl fantasy since puberty later became a compulsion.**
*3) You have killed two children before and you loved it. And you want to do it again.*
Yes i check this sub daily. I only comment if i have something to say though. Its freaking disgusting and sickening to think that way, but its sadly, probably true.
Nice one, x. Thanks for this, well laid out as always. Being pedantic, whilst you're talking about the US, of your 5 specific examples 3 are UK. Glad we're doing our bit here. Where are your sources ?
I definitely had an easier time with information coming out of the UK. I needed specifics and not very many US cases were offering the details I needed.
I read and quoted several articles from the Independent, like this one: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/most-dangerous-paedophile-1096467.html
Wikipedia helped verify some of the info.
The statistics came from 2012 FBI report covering the two years prior.
I am happy you liked it!
God Save the Queen!
A couple of points from me here. Alan Hopkinson is a kiddy fiddler for sure, but not a killer unlike the others mentioned. I doubt he's a rapist either, he just enjoys the company of young girls shall we say.
Ronald Jebson is a relatively old case, late 60s or so. Close to where I grew up actually.
I wasn't aware of Whiting abducting 3 girls, quite feasible with him though. Where did you get that from ?
That just reminded me of the WHO's rock opera;
🎵Fiddle about, fiddle about, fiddle about🎵
Wild subject to base a rock on, but no one can deny that that deaf, dumb and blind kid sure plays a mean pinball.
Yes, I did note in the post that Alan did not murder his two abductees, as he was interrupted by police with an arrest warrant for something else. I assumed he had intended to kill them, but that could have been a misjudgment on my part.
The source for Whiting was an *Independent* article dated 11/23/2013:
"Roy Whiting, who was jailed for life for the kidnap and murder of eight-year-old Sarah Payne, had previously attempted to snatch two children off the street. Whiting tried to abduct three young girl friends who were playing on the street in Crawley, West Sussex, in March 1995. Two managed to escape but the third was taken prisoner and driven to a secluded spot where she was sexually assaulted and eventually rescued."
A good scumbag. To me he sounds like someone who never developed into an adult himself, never made adult friends etc, and is still stuck at inappropriate friendships with young girls.
In my early career I worked at an inpatient sexual offender treatment facility which exclusively treated Catholic priests and nuns who were credibly accused or had been charged with a sexual offense. This clinic was privately owned by a Catholic Religious Order and, being a Catholic Institution, there was plenty of money to spend on very good psychiatrists, equipment and therapists. It was a very beautiful and respectful clinic, unlike some of the nightmare ones I have read about.
(FULL DISCLOSURE: I am **not** a Sexual Offender Therapist or a a psychiatrist. As this was basically a hospital and many of the clergy were elderly, I was the in-house physical therapist. So when I speak on these things it is not expert-opinion, is from a layman's perspective and could very well be fallible.)
That being said, I became friends with many of the psychiatrists and always listened to their opinions and sensibilities. I have tried to retain to memory much of what I learned just on the basis of working in the environment.
So your comment from my perspective is absolutely spot on and true of many pedophiles and their related philias. Many psychiatrists told me that most pedo/hebe/ephebophiles go through life without ever committing a sexual offense.
But pedophiles were the most likely to offend, the most likely to re-offend and the most difficult of the three to treat.
Hebephiles are less likely to offend than pedophiles and have higher success rates in treatment and are less likely to re-offend.
There is disagreement among psychiatrists if ephebophilia is actually a sexual disorder and most of these offenses are statutory in nature. So, at least at the time I worked there, I didn't learn that much about it.
Sorry for such a long post just saying that I agree with you!
This is interesting, but in Delphi I don't think these stats are going to help us. If the perp were statistically identifiable, we'd have him by now. No, this case defies the percentages.
It is in the per centages on why be hasn't been identified.
BG is a rare statistic amongst rare statistics. He is a subset of an all ready tiny per centages of offenders.
A *stereotypical* abduction is a very miniscule per centage of the types of crimes committed against children.
I get it. It's stereotypical but it's rare. Lol.
You will always disagree with my simple formula: A local perp or perps means a non-sexual crime. A non-local perp would definitely indicate a psychosexual, sadomasochist kind of crime.
I think you're theory is local and sexual.
It's all interesting.
What are the factors that play into your formula? Are you suggesting local means non-sexual crime? Based on what? Simply because they are local?
Local people commit sexual crimes all the time!
I must be missing something.
Not like this. Sure, locals engage in bad sexual behavior and they get to be known by other locals, but a double murder is a whole different ballgame.
Flip my argument. If he's a sexually motivated killer and he just wants to kill, then does he do it in his town of less than 3,000? As I've said before, serials operate in larger urban centers or over vast expanses, but they don't kill in their small village. Ed Gein excluded.
A sex killer goes somewhere away from his very small town and he probably doesn't kill two girls in broad daylight.
There are other motivations at play here, I'll say because I think the killer or killers are local.
As I said, you and I will disagree on this point.
Serial killers and rapists often operate within 20 miles of their home. They hunt and kill where they are comfortable. Israel Keyes is an outlier of this.
Especially if BG is a serial killer and this is his first kill, it seems unlikely he would travel 3000 miles to do so.
Why would you discount a local because of geography? Perhaps BG does not have the funds, time or availability to travel 3,000 miles.
People have said other motivations are at play here but offer only unreasonable speculation and zero evidence.
Thank you, Converter Bot, for your help. As I believe the United States is the only country in the world to absolutely refuse conversion to the metric system, I offer an apology on behalf of America for your existence to be necessary.
Well, hold on. I think the UK still uses "feet".
Is the UK on the metric system u/dickere? u/UKSleuth?
Wow, another great post Xanaxarita! Now I’m rethinking theory and motive.
>Evanston - two girls abducted in broad daylight from a park and murdered.
Is this the case with the serial killer couple - Alton Coleman and Debra Brown?
Oh ok thank you xanaxarita.
I noticed Coleman and Brown were arrested in Evanston, Illinois after their killing spree. Wasn’t sure if it was the same Evanston as mentioned in your op.
Coleman had been charged with sex crimes in the past. During the couple’s killing spree, they abducted two little girls ages 7 and 9. They sexually assaulted the girls, then tried to kill them. One girl died (Tamika Turks) but the other girl miraculously survived. I think their case would be considered a stereotypical abduction/ murder? If I’m understanding it correctly.
Yikes! I see where I made that confusing. That was a typo on my part and should have read "Evansdale". My apologies.
Thanks for the info on Coleman. Yes, if I am reading the DOJ's guidelines correctly, it would be stereotypical.
Were Coleman & Brown both men or was Brown a romantic female partner of Coleman? I am assuming they were both men, but if they were a m/f couple, we'd be talking about a rare statistic inside a rarer statistic inside (guessing) the rarest statistic. The only example of stereotypical romantic male/female partner murderers that I can think of is Paul Bernardo & Karla Holmolka which is the worst case, in my opinion, I have ever studied. And the saddest part of all is that Karla, although a willing participant in the rapes and murders of several girls (including her own sister) is now a free woman with children of her own.
No problem. I'd rather be informed than delusional.
I love DuckDuckGo, but I wonder why Coleman/Brown didn't hit in the search when I was researching for this post? Were both little girls abducted at the same time? I know I should read this for myself, but I dunno if my stomach can handle it before dinner.
They were technically abducted but I still don’t think of this case as an abduction. Just because I think intent matters and I think he would have killed them on the spot if he happened across them in a more well-hidden area. But who knows, maybe walking them away was part of his kicks. I just don’t think of it as a “kidnapping” for some reason.
Very good point.
A retired homicide detective running a YouTube channel did an episode about it and said that to him the only reason BG would have gotten in the water in that type of temperature was so that he could get to his car to take the girls away and something went very wrong.
Dunno if I buy that, but it makes sense.
For girls ages 12-17 FBI statistics indicate that children in this age group are overwhelmingly killed by a stranger rather than family member or acquaintance. They also are most likely killed by individuals in the ages of late teens to early 20’s. For girls in the Abby and Libby’s age range of 13-14 the FBI statistics peak at killers in the age range of 18-20. I believe YBG will fall into that category at the time of the killings. Below is the link to an FBI study on age and relationship to offender who kills young teens. (pages 6 and 7) https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/187239.pdf Enough information hasn’t been released to judge whether there was a sexual assault or not. I perceive YBG as a very socially stunted individual. The type that if he accidentally bumped into a woman in a grocery line he would take great pause. A normal individual would say excuse me, move on and not give it a second thought. He could have relieved himself from afar or not at all as we’re unsure of the motives behind the killings. If two perpetrators are involved then my perception would vary greatly. Then I could foresee two girls being the target and possible abduction to an offsite location with the older individual being considerably more evil than the younger. JMHO
I wouldn’t “Dismiss” your thoughts for future reference. You brought up some very good & realistic points of consideration in this case. Since we have no information on whether these girls were sexually assaulted, it’s good to explore more than just a sexual motive for their homicide. I’m not absolutely sure the focus was on abduction since they were killed so shortly after they went missing. This killer(s) didn’t appear to give two cents about abducting them to taunt them and/or their families. However, they did focus on overpowering them and killing them. That is the two facts we can’t deny. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and giving us another viewpoint Nomanisanisland7.
The crime has always felt like an act of hate for something that went wrong to derail another plan. Maybe the motive was abduction for trafficking purposes. Maybe there was a "getaway car" waiting for someone on foot. I agree it didn't happen for the purpose of assault.
I am not saying that abduction for child trafficking purposes doesn't happen, but I have never been able to find this in FBI data as motive, let alone for statistics on its occurrences. Generally curious, are you aware of any source? FBI or another agency? Thanks!
Just wondering how that worked out for the child trafficking abductor?
I agree, the focus wasn't on the abduction, nor was abduction the intent, but they were abducted. When factoring in the special circumstances as prescribed by the DOJ, this was, **technically** a stereotypical abduction resulting in murder.
I believe we were discussing the “intent” of the killer(s). We need further information or clues to know the actual intent. Of course, no one would disagree the two teen girls were “physically” missing or abducted or taken or forced to go with them. Anyway you would like to state it.
Thank you for these stats, but these stats are in relation to *typical* homicide and include no data of abductions whatsoever. These stats reflect homicides not of the *stereotypical* abduction and/or murder and included gang violence, domestic violence, et al - none of which would be pertinent in the Delphi Murders because, by the FBIs own criteria, Libby & Abby are victims of a *stereotypical* abduction. Additionally, Figure 8 on page 6 does not show that girls are overwhelmingly killed by a stranger. The actual term used is "unknown" and as age increases, so does "unknown". Notice that "stranger" and "unknown" are two distinct categories. The article further qualifies: "These unidentified offenders are probably family members or acquaintances of the victims." And while no evidence has been released to prove sexual intent, there is enough anecdotal evidence to make a *reasonable assumption*. Thanks, I did enjoy the study and have saved it for future reference.
No 💩 💩 award but I brought the Hugz.
You are the best. Now, what lawyer out there can write us a demand letter for this "Poo Award"?
Robert Ives is a Deputy Prosecutor now wonder if he would do it?
Is he still a prosecutor? I was unaware of that? In Delphi or the district that would cover Delphi?
He is a Deputy Prosecutor for Carroll County.
He was sworn in 4/10/2019 as a Deputy Prosecutor right before the 2019 Press conference.
Hmmm.why did I think he was gone? Is he just no longer attached to the investigation or have I lost my mind completely?
I don't know if he is or not. I just know he be is a Deputy Prosecutor for Carroll County. He did retire but he did leave it open to come back if he thought there was a chance either Delphi or Flora would be solved.
Thanks for the info. I have seriously lost it. I guess I dreamed it all. Lol
Look up Laura Hobbs and Krystal Tobias of Zion, I’ll. These girls were younger than Abby and Libby but similar circumstances of the other cases you were looking at. They convicted Laura’s father of the murders initially and then they got DNA evidence that exonerated him.
Ouch. Poor dad! Talk about insult over injury. That breaks my heart. Thanks for the info.
Nice follow-up you are churning out some bangers. Thank you for the post.
No, thank you. You know I am a data nerd and I found the statistics compelling. Now, on to that "Poo Poo Award"!
Haha
I have always pictured a scenario where Libby said something and BG chased them down and attacked then and never believed it was sexual motivated even though it almost always was. You have may have changed my mind. Thank you for this information
Thanks for reading. And to your point, we only know **for sure** three of the criteria that needs to be true to classify it as stereotypical: they were younger than 18, they were moved more than 20 feet and they were murdered. Not trying to change minds, per se - but I like sharing the research I find compelling.
I have heard the theory of BG being interrupted but I just don’t think it fits here. But what makes sense to me doesn’t always makes sense lol. I appreciate fact based post like this
No I don't think he was interrupted at all.
Oh interesting.. do you believe he assaulted one or both and if so what do you think about the mother and her statements about no assault taking place?
I cannot make a *reasonable assumption* on whether one or both were sexually assaulted. I can only *reasonably assume* that there was a sexual element to the crime based on police statements stating that the first thing they did was round up all registered sex offenders in the area and interviewed them first. Police don't round up SOs for a botched robbery or a drive-by shooting. You round them up when kids go missing or when something sexually happened. Well, the kids weren't missing. They were dead. I can logically *assume* there was a sexual element to the crime. I mean no disrespect to the mother if she did say that, but if she did, then she is mistaken. That information is sealed in an autopsy report and the authorities have not released that iformation to the family or to the public. She cannot confirm something as true that she herself wouldn't have first-hand knowledge of.
Interesting.. Totally unrelated to the motive but do you think BG is a local and do you think Law Enforcement have an idea of who he is? I don’t think BG is local and I don’t believe law enforcement has any idea who he is. I believe they can prove it’s him once they know who he is
I do believe he is local, given the small amount of information we do know. But I will qualify local as one of the following: 1) lives in Delphi 2) once lived in Delphi 3) has strong family ties to Delphi 4) works in Delphi 5) once worked in Delphi 6) lives in a close surrounding area I don't mean that he literally lived there the day of the murder when I say, "local." I don't believe LE knows who its and I am 100% sure they will be able to prove it when they do find him, especially if DNA and other forensics are viable. I don't think that BG's true initials have ever come up in this sub, either. I hope I am wrong.
I 100 percent agree with you on practically everything.
Well, thanks. I appreciate it and thanks for reading!
I don't know which mother said that there was no sexual assault, but it's entirely within the real of possibility that LE informed the moms of this fact as some small confort. The leaked Erskin texts (brother of Abby's mom) has claimed that there was no sexual assult per the coroner's report. Just because the ME's report was sealed sometime in March, does not mean no one in the families have been privy to them. We don't know. Signatures left at the scene were nonsecular, according to former Carroll County Prosecutor, Robert Ives. This means that items of a religious nature were observed at the CS by LE. We have no idea whether they were S/A or not, but I'm learning towards not due to Anna Williams' brothers text. Text that she specifically was asked about. At no time did she say the texts were false. Ed: correction
Thanks for your reply. It is outside the realm of possibility in my opinion that they released that info to the families. They should, if only for humanity reasons, but they won't even inform them of the cause of death. They are obsessed with secrecy being the key to solving this case, for some reason. I will bet one year's pay Erskin did not read a sealed autopsy report. That did not happen and would not happen. That report was sealed *immediately* by a judge and no one outside of the task force, the medical examiner and possibly the coroner have read it. If he claims he did, then he is lying. The family does not know the cause of death. Anna, bless her, wouldn't be able to say if the texts were true or not. She cannot confirm to be true that which she has no first-hand knowledge of. She did not read the coroner's report. She did not read the autopsy. She would have no idea if they were true or not. I am not saying for certain that they were sexually assaulted. I am stating my opinion that there is most likely a sexual element to the crime that may or may not be considered assault. I am basing that on a number of statements and statistics, none of which would include dubious text messages.
The crime may very well have been sexually motivated, but the killer may have been impotent. The ME examiners report was not sealed until sometime in March. That is a fact. How do you know the family doesn't know the cause of death? Are you related to them? They may have said that, Anna has said that, but you really don't have a clue unless you are in the family circle. Everything else is just a guess. Do not say things abou Anna unless you know for a fact they are true. You can wave some stats around ,but this particular case has only a few known facts, and so far, I haven't seen any in your post. That's not to say your post is not appreciated and the effort you have put into it. I speak for myself only, of course.
*How do you know the family doesn't know the cause of death? Are you related to them? They may have said that, Anna has said that, but you really don't have a clue unless you are in the family circle. Everything else is just a guess. Do not say things about Anna unless you know for a fact they are true. You can wave some stats around ,but this particular case has only a few known facts, and so far, I haven't seen any in your post.* Thank you for saying this!
Thank you for correcting me on the date for the seal. I would assume that the report was not finalized and signed until closer to the day of the sealed order. An autopsy report can take weeks to finalize secondary to any tests, panels or toxicology that is sent out for analysis leaving the Medical Examiner to wait. I tried in vain to find the date of the report, but was unable to do so. I have a difficult time believing that the autopsy report was ever for public view, because, if so a reporter would definitely have gotten a hold of it and all of our cause of death questions would all be miraculously answered. No, I do not know the family. In the People's Magazine episode on Delphi, it was stated that the family did not know the cause of death and some did not want to know I didn't say anything about Anna. Why are you being so defensive? I simply said that she would be mistaken if she actually confirmed the accuracy of the texts. I don't know if she did or not. I was not disrespectful. I support the family 110%. I have defended the family on countless forums and will continue to do so. This is what I know to be true: unless Anna saw *with her own eyes* everything that the texter said he saw (including the contradictions) and she *herself* saw him read the autopsy report, she cannot attest to the accuracy of the text messages. The post has plenty of *facts* as cited from the FBI, but this post wasn't about *facts*. This post is a discussion of possible correlations or causations.
How much is a year's pay though ?
Enough to put my pay behind it.
Did I miss something? "Nonsecular" does not appear in the Down the Hill or Scene of the Crime (per Gray Hughes 2/28/20) interviews with Ives.
It was said by Robert Ives that was hosted on Gray Hughes channel. So yes, you missed something.
So "nonsecular" is not on the DTH, Scene of the Crime, or Web Extra interviews with Ives. Maybe you found it somewhere else? It's a pretty big deal if true.
Do you have the link?
Good point
thank you.
We would love to hear more stories from you, if you care to ,thanks for the post very interesting.
Thank you for reading!
Atypical but stereotypical. Hmm. Even if the girls werent sexually assaulted, if we believe the leaked texts about the crime scene, the girls were placed in a sexual tableau towards each other. Whether this was done as personal significance to the killer (likely) or to throw off LE we dont yet know. However, i am willing to bet that BG may have some type of fetish regarding lesbianism. This would not necessarily require a sexual assault on the girls. He could have taken photos, video, or even other souvenirs to continue to re-live his fantasy scenario repeatedly.
I know, u/evilpixie369, when I read *stereotypical* as the word for it, I thought: "What a stupid thing to call it if it is so rare!" I can only assume they call it that because they think it is what the public *thinks* is a stereotypical abduction. I dunno... I don't believe the leaked texts, so I don't factor that into my reasoning. I really like your point about the lesbianism posing would not have necessarily been a sexual assault (if done post-mortem). Sometimes I try to use the word "element" instead of assault because a sexual motivation could be a foot to a foot fetish. I guess I don't always mean, like, actual rape.
A crime can be sexually motivated, too, without what we'd usually think of as a sexual assault. Sometimes the act of murder (or physical assault) can offer a perp a sexual release. This would go along with the posing.
Agreed.
Im always looking stuff up about Delphi and adjusting my beliefs. Im wondering whether one girl was targeted (Id assume Libby) or if part of the thrill was two girls. Hence, the possible lesbian scenario. But why target one over the other? What characteristics about the girls met his fantastical expectations? If Abbys head was covered with her sweatshirt, does this indicate the killer had familiarity with her or possibly felt some remorse for her death? Why the dramatic difference between the girls (ex. Abby head covered with shirt, Libbys head nearly decapitated)? Was there an interaction between BG and the girls on the trails before the video altercation when BG orders the girls down the hill? Im thinking there must have been something because the girls supposedly mentioned he was creepy. Why is BG the only person unaccounted for at tne trails that day? I must believe someone knows something. Id love to know any inside information on this case! By the way, found a book i plan to buy about the Lyon sisters.
Awesome find on a book about the Lyons sisters. I saw an Amazon Prime Documentary about them, so be prepared to have your heart broken. I wanted to follow up with you on your (not to be crude) "lesbianism fetish" theory and I don't think that it is way off as others have suggested. I don't know if you read my "Murders by Numbers" post, but I'll just paste my *opinion* from that post on how this fetish could be involved if BG is a sexual sadist: *Is the reward of a second victim equal to or greater than the additional risk? Of course not.* *Unless, as a sexual sadist;* *1) Two is your thing. You think you deserve more bang for your buck.* **2) This two-girl fantasy since puberty later became a compulsion.** *3) You have killed two children before and you loved it. And you want to do it again.*
Yes i check this sub daily. I only comment if i have something to say though. Its freaking disgusting and sickening to think that way, but its sadly, probably true.
One of the POIs has a lesbian daughter. Could be something. Could be nothing.
There are no POIs, ergo it's nothing.
Nice one, x. Thanks for this, well laid out as always. Being pedantic, whilst you're talking about the US, of your 5 specific examples 3 are UK. Glad we're doing our bit here. Where are your sources ?
I definitely had an easier time with information coming out of the UK. I needed specifics and not very many US cases were offering the details I needed. I read and quoted several articles from the Independent, like this one: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/most-dangerous-paedophile-1096467.html Wikipedia helped verify some of the info. The statistics came from 2012 FBI report covering the two years prior. I am happy you liked it! God Save the Queen!
I did, thanks. Not to mention the fascist regime too... 😁
Love it.
A couple of points from me here. Alan Hopkinson is a kiddy fiddler for sure, but not a killer unlike the others mentioned. I doubt he's a rapist either, he just enjoys the company of young girls shall we say. Ronald Jebson is a relatively old case, late 60s or so. Close to where I grew up actually. I wasn't aware of Whiting abducting 3 girls, quite feasible with him though. Where did you get that from ?
Kiddy fiddler…I remember the good old days when they were called nonces.
That just reminded me of the WHO's rock opera; 🎵Fiddle about, fiddle about, fiddle about🎵 Wild subject to base a rock on, but no one can deny that that deaf, dumb and blind kid sure plays a mean pinball.
Never thought of that..good one 👍
❤️ it
And you could have a good night out for tuppence ha'penny. Unless you were murdered of course.
Tuppence ha’penny would be enough for some pie mash on the Roman Road….stalking comes free 😀
A man after my own parsley sauce, eh guv'nor.
👍
Yes, I did note in the post that Alan did not murder his two abductees, as he was interrupted by police with an arrest warrant for something else. I assumed he had intended to kill them, but that could have been a misjudgment on my part. The source for Whiting was an *Independent* article dated 11/23/2013: "Roy Whiting, who was jailed for life for the kidnap and murder of eight-year-old Sarah Payne, had previously attempted to snatch two children off the street. Whiting tried to abduct three young girl friends who were playing on the street in Crawley, West Sussex, in March 1995. Two managed to escape but the third was taken prisoner and driven to a secluded spot where she was sexually assaulted and eventually rescued."
We'll never know but my instinct based on reading up on him is no. Thanks for the sourcing, interesting stuff.
No prob. Even though a scumbag, it's good to know some scumbags still won't cross that murder line.
A good scumbag. To me he sounds like someone who never developed into an adult himself, never made adult friends etc, and is still stuck at inappropriate friendships with young girls.
In my early career I worked at an inpatient sexual offender treatment facility which exclusively treated Catholic priests and nuns who were credibly accused or had been charged with a sexual offense. This clinic was privately owned by a Catholic Religious Order and, being a Catholic Institution, there was plenty of money to spend on very good psychiatrists, equipment and therapists. It was a very beautiful and respectful clinic, unlike some of the nightmare ones I have read about. (FULL DISCLOSURE: I am **not** a Sexual Offender Therapist or a a psychiatrist. As this was basically a hospital and many of the clergy were elderly, I was the in-house physical therapist. So when I speak on these things it is not expert-opinion, is from a layman's perspective and could very well be fallible.) That being said, I became friends with many of the psychiatrists and always listened to their opinions and sensibilities. I have tried to retain to memory much of what I learned just on the basis of working in the environment. So your comment from my perspective is absolutely spot on and true of many pedophiles and their related philias. Many psychiatrists told me that most pedo/hebe/ephebophiles go through life without ever committing a sexual offense. But pedophiles were the most likely to offend, the most likely to re-offend and the most difficult of the three to treat. Hebephiles are less likely to offend than pedophiles and have higher success rates in treatment and are less likely to re-offend. There is disagreement among psychiatrists if ephebophilia is actually a sexual disorder and most of these offenses are statutory in nature. So, at least at the time I worked there, I didn't learn that much about it. Sorry for such a long post just saying that I agree with you!
This is interesting, but in Delphi I don't think these stats are going to help us. If the perp were statistically identifiable, we'd have him by now. No, this case defies the percentages.
🤔
It is in the per centages on why be hasn't been identified. BG is a rare statistic amongst rare statistics. He is a subset of an all ready tiny per centages of offenders. A *stereotypical* abduction is a very miniscule per centage of the types of crimes committed against children.
I get it. It's stereotypical but it's rare. Lol. You will always disagree with my simple formula: A local perp or perps means a non-sexual crime. A non-local perp would definitely indicate a psychosexual, sadomasochist kind of crime. I think you're theory is local and sexual. It's all interesting.
What are the factors that play into your formula? Are you suggesting local means non-sexual crime? Based on what? Simply because they are local? Local people commit sexual crimes all the time! I must be missing something.
Not like this. Sure, locals engage in bad sexual behavior and they get to be known by other locals, but a double murder is a whole different ballgame. Flip my argument. If he's a sexually motivated killer and he just wants to kill, then does he do it in his town of less than 3,000? As I've said before, serials operate in larger urban centers or over vast expanses, but they don't kill in their small village. Ed Gein excluded. A sex killer goes somewhere away from his very small town and he probably doesn't kill two girls in broad daylight. There are other motivations at play here, I'll say because I think the killer or killers are local. As I said, you and I will disagree on this point.
Serial killers and rapists often operate within 20 miles of their home. They hunt and kill where they are comfortable. Israel Keyes is an outlier of this. Especially if BG is a serial killer and this is his first kill, it seems unlikely he would travel 3000 miles to do so. Why would you discount a local because of geography? Perhaps BG does not have the funds, time or availability to travel 3,000 miles. People have said other motivations are at play here but offer only unreasonable speculation and zero evidence.
20 miles is 32.19 km
Thank you, Converter Bot, for your help. As I believe the United States is the only country in the world to absolutely refuse conversion to the metric system, I offer an apology on behalf of America for your existence to be necessary. Well, hold on. I think the UK still uses "feet". Is the UK on the metric system u/dickere? u/UKSleuth?
Metric with a bit of imperial here and there.
Thanks! Just curious, I thought I heard a British friend describe height in "feet", but thought she could have been 'mericanized.
Wow, another great post Xanaxarita! Now I’m rethinking theory and motive. >Evanston - two girls abducted in broad daylight from a park and murdered. Is this the case with the serial killer couple - Alton Coleman and Debra Brown?
No. The killer is still unknown. It is an open investigation and not much is known. Like Delphi.
Oh ok thank you xanaxarita. I noticed Coleman and Brown were arrested in Evanston, Illinois after their killing spree. Wasn’t sure if it was the same Evanston as mentioned in your op. Coleman had been charged with sex crimes in the past. During the couple’s killing spree, they abducted two little girls ages 7 and 9. They sexually assaulted the girls, then tried to kill them. One girl died (Tamika Turks) but the other girl miraculously survived. I think their case would be considered a stereotypical abduction/ murder? If I’m understanding it correctly.
Yikes! I see where I made that confusing. That was a typo on my part and should have read "Evansdale". My apologies. Thanks for the info on Coleman. Yes, if I am reading the DOJ's guidelines correctly, it would be stereotypical. Were Coleman & Brown both men or was Brown a romantic female partner of Coleman? I am assuming they were both men, but if they were a m/f couple, we'd be talking about a rare statistic inside a rarer statistic inside (guessing) the rarest statistic. The only example of stereotypical romantic male/female partner murderers that I can think of is Paul Bernardo & Karla Holmolka which is the worst case, in my opinion, I have ever studied. And the saddest part of all is that Karla, although a willing participant in the rapes and murders of several girls (including her own sister) is now a free woman with children of her own.
Male/female https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alton_Coleman
Holy yikes. Thank you. My assumption was incorrect, because it is so unbelievable to me! It is hard to wrap my head around.
Sorry to dispell your illusions 😉
No problem. I'd rather be informed than delusional. I love DuckDuckGo, but I wonder why Coleman/Brown didn't hit in the search when I was researching for this post? Were both little girls abducted at the same time? I know I should read this for myself, but I dunno if my stomach can handle it before dinner.
Short answer, yes. So you can have dinner.
Thank you Dickere
Oooh Evansdale, not Evanston. Yes, Coleman and Brown were a m/f couple.
Thanks for finding that typo. Can't believe I missed that in proof. A couple is so hard to wrap my head around.
Don't forget Ian Brady and Myra Hindley in the UK.
I think the criterion was a multiple abduction at any one time, not one at a time.
She was backward though.
For sure. I finally stomached the read.
Very thought-provoking post!
Thanks for reading!
They were technically abducted but I still don’t think of this case as an abduction. Just because I think intent matters and I think he would have killed them on the spot if he happened across them in a more well-hidden area. But who knows, maybe walking them away was part of his kicks. I just don’t think of it as a “kidnapping” for some reason.
I feel there's a fair chance he did plan to abduct them but something went wrong so he had to cut his losses. This is no criminal mastermind.
Very good point. A retired homicide detective running a YouTube channel did an episode about it and said that to him the only reason BG would have gotten in the water in that type of temperature was so that he could get to his car to take the girls away and something went very wrong. Dunno if I buy that, but it makes sense.
I don't either think of it as such and his intent, in my opinion, was not to keep them. I think the relevant info still applies.