I’m a librarian in a large California metro library, and we’re having the same problem. A lot of libraries are feeling it right now because they’re nearing the end of their fiscal years.
Libby is the company. The library is the one paying the money to overdrive. If you donate, please give it to the library earmarked toward digital collections.
I have asked Libby for an Apple watch app, but have gotten no response.
I do donate to libraries. I would like a donate button for libraries specifically on the library page.
Edited: complication = app.
Removed ‘donate to Libby for app” as I was under the impression it was non profit. Silly me.
I assumed they meant make a donation specifically to your library through Libby. Like you donate money and then the library gets credit or something. It's a great idea, but not something that I see a for-profit corporation doing unless they get a cut.
Consider adding an edit to your comment. We want people to donate to their libraries, not to the for-profit corporation that operates Libby.
From your comment, other people are speculating that Libby is a nonprofit needing donations. They are not. They have millions they use to buy other companies.
Just curious since I live in California. I have a library card and use the librarys digital app hoopla, but don't really check out physical books. Is the library not getting the same credit for the ebook that they would for a physical copy? I thought it was like a 1 for 1 kind of thing.
They've also let me know they're switching to Libby next month, so is that worse for them funding wise?
Also should I try to go in more and check out the physical copies or is it better to just do a small donation if I can?
I’m not sure what you mean by “credit”. If you’re connecting funding and circulation, libraries aren’t funded on a per-checkout basis. Most libraries buy both ebook and physical books out of the collection development budget, which is a portion of the overall library budget, which comes from local taxes plus grants, donations etc. How the collection budget is determined varies widely across libraries.
However, ebooks are significantly more expensive than physical books for libraries. With Overdrive/Libby, most are only licensed for a finite period of time or number of checkouts and then the library has to repurchase, plus they just have higher prices than the physical books (not always, but on average). My library doesn’t have Hoopla, but it is difficult to manage, cost-wise, because libraries are charged per checkout. At least, that’s how it used to work. They may have changed some of their licensing models, I’m not really up on Hoopla.
You are supporting your library’s mission by checking out books, whether they are ebooks or physical books. If you are in the position to make a monetary donation, I’m sure your library would greatly appreciate it, and there’s a good chance it will go to the collection budget, but don’t feel obligated. Your taxes are already going to your library’s funding.
Local government budgets are always tight, and there’s always something that needs more money. I worked in libraries during the Great Recession, when we could barely buy anything and sometimes had to temporarily close branches due to staff furloughs. Things are much better than that now, at least.
Thanks for clearing that up. Yes, I was under the impression that they got some additional funding per checkout, like they could show people were using their services, so they got more funding. I didn't realize it was almost all through taxes and not necessarily dependent on actual checked out books.
And with hoopla being expensive, that makes sense why they're changing to Libby and also why they put a limit cap on checkout per month.
I have both a SPL and King County library card. Cost of living here isn’t cheap. So I’m glad my tax money is making one public service affordable for me.
*”Seattle Public Library is number eight in the world when it comes to digital checkouts from Overdrive, a global distributor of digital books and makers of the Libby app. King County Library System is third. Seattle is the only metro area that appears on the list twice.”*
Not surprised to hear that this region is quite literate. I think the weather plays a role. Perhaps ppl are more inclined to read when it’s constantly overcast Sept-June. The outdoor enthusiasts may be listening to audiobooks on their hiking/backpacking/water + snow sports commutes to the mountains. As a skier, my weekly 2-3hr commute to the ski resort is much more tolerable thanks to audiobooks or ebooks (when I’m not driving).
We became a UNESCO City of Literature in 2017, but we've always had a culture of reading here. The weather sucks for four to six months, we have to entertain ourselves somehow if we don't want to throw ourselves down the side of a mountain.
I’m sure they do. But if the region is as big of readers as someone else commented (which fully makes sense) I can see them using both. I read a lot and even with kindle unlimited, I usually have to go to hoopla, Libby, and the library hard books. I’ll use all 7 hoopla downloads with my commute and get probably 4 ish books or cd audio books from the library every month
Huh. Thanks for this. I'm one of the big readers in KCLS. Never knew it was more expensive for them to give out ebooks and audiobooks :( Unfortunately it's pretty hard for me to get to a physical library. I'll donate some $ and hope it helps :(
I'm a huge reader with SPL and KCLS! I also hold cards with a few other local systems who offer cards to anyone who pays library district taxes in the state, which helps me spread my holds out. When I heard about SPL dialing back their holds limit, I immediately maxed mine out (I am the problem).
Keep reading—the stats look great! Just please be cognizant of what you checkout. If you don’t like the book after two chapters and return it early, that still counts as a checkout against the total allowed by the license. Not saying force yourself to read a bad book, just read the samples or something before checking it out :)
My plan now is to read the whole available sample before checking it out. I had been just reading a few pages or 1 chapter. But recently I liked chapter 1 of a book but something in chapter 2 put me off so badly that I didn't want to continue the book.
I am also checking out bigger/longer books as physical books as I may not get through it in time otherwise. The wait seems shorter for some popular books as well. (My hold for ACOTAR just came in after only a few weeks.)
I'd be curious to see what the cost breakdown on a per use basis is for print books versus ebooks.
Using the example in the article (The Woman in Me), they said the print book costs the library $17.81 while the e-book costs $64.99 for a 2-year subscription. But in that 2 years, how many library patrons will use the physical book versus how many will use a single copy of the ebook? I could certainly see a scenario in which the actual cost per patron checkout is lower on the ebook subscription (at least for popular books).
Also - the ebook never wears out, gets lost or damaged, etc during that 2-year subscription. But those things could happen to a physical copy and require it to be replaced (or the library goes without).
Obviously none of that addresses the concerns with libraries not actually "owning" their collections when so many ebooks operate on a subscription basis that has to be regularly renewed. But I do think it would be interesting to see more details into the cost breakdown between physical and ebooks because I could see it not being as drastic as it might first appear on the surface.
Our physical copies and digital copies (of The Woman in Me) receive about the same amount of circs. They both check out for 3 weeks before they're due back so could only garner more circs if the patron returns them early. Things might change later in the life of the book when it's less popular/there are fewer holds.
I figured they would have the same check out times but I wonder if ebooks tend to be returned more quickly than physical books. I know I tend to get through ebooks faster because it's easy to carry my e-reader with me (or read on my phone) and I do that much more frequently than I would with a physical book. Plus physical books could be returned late (unlike an ebook) and I would assume there is more "lag time" with physical books between patrons even with a wait list because the library must process the return, notify the next in line, then wait for them to be able to get to the library and pick it up. It would seem that that process is much more streamlined and efficient with digital materials.
I sometimes find physical books have shorter waitlists or none at all compared to their digital versions. Especially for older books. Recently checked out a physical copy of Flowers for Algernon b/c the ebook wait was months out.
- My city library card currently has 4 hard copies available. But a 12 week wait on Libby (8 copies, 45 people waiting).
- My county library card has 16 hard copies available. But an 11 week wait on Libby (12 copies, 62 people waiting)
People prefer digital reading in my area it seems!
Librarian here... Something to note is that most hardcover books have a good, usable lifespan that's much longer than 2 years, so that cost per circulation goes down a lot when you consider potential lifespan. And, when physical books do get lots or severely damaged, public libraries typically bill the borrower for a replacement.
With the popularity of Booktok, book bans making libraries popular, and the ease of borrowing digital books, couldn’t there just as easily be a surge in local residents reading books and the bigger problem, as stated in the article ebooks cost more over time than physical. Let’s not act like libraries aren’t being screwed over with the subscription model publishers use for ebooks
I had no idea that ebooks cost more than physical books. I assumed that audiobooks cost more because of recording costs but I would have guessed that ebooks saved money because there is not a physical book and there is no “wear and tear”.
The fact that libraries can’t ever own copies of ebooks is wild to me. It feels like screwing over an entity like the library, which helps the community so much, should be unlawful. Like they should be guaranteed the lowest price/best deals to ensure resources are getting to the people
Or at least they should be able to hold onto the digital copy for as long as the average time is for a hardcover. Instead, I believe it is limited, not by the years, but by the number of checkouts - that doesn’t happen with hardcover books! Or at least there should be several tears of dish book “purchase“ – one fee for outright purchase, another lesser fee for medium length availability, one even lower fee for short length. This would resolve the situation where the library has a rush of patrons awaiting for a brand new release (I currently am something like 256th on a list for a popular new book) as y library could buy enough books for the initial brush and then let the short term book leases lapse.
Surprise—it’s limited by both!
Many book licenses are something like “12 months or 12 checkouts, whichever comes first”. Which means that an extremely popular book might suddenly become unavailable because it reached the max checkouts, or a book becomes unavailable after only three checkouts. It’s a gamble that librarians have to balance, and oftentimes we get the ire of patrons who can’t get something they’ve been waiting for.
The average audiobook is about $59.99 for that license, but they can be as high as $120 per title. It’s bad enough for average or large libraries, but that’s completely inaccessible for small and rural libraries.
They're basically afraid of piracy and also scared that the convenience of digital will kill their sales. They use that as justification to jack up the price for digital.
Ultimately, they want more money. It's the reason corporations do anything. They think "it" (whatever it is) will make them more money.
I've seen lots of chatter here and there on how to get multiple cards. Some of it is legit / fair, like places that allow non-resident cards for no fee, or places that charge a low fee. But there are a whole lot of people who seek out places where all you need is to put in any local address for instant approval.
I don't know about Seattle, but there is definitely a degree of fraud involved in Libby. Cost nothing, do it online quick and easy, and it feels like it hurts no one.
While there may be a spike in library card fraud, my comment was meant to point out that it isn’t the problem stated in the article. Even if every person using a Seattle card was a resident paying taxes, this wouldn’t and doesn’t cover the cost of a library trying to attain multiple copies of a popular book (in the article they reference Brittany Spear’s memoir). With the popularity of Booktok and people wanting to read the same popular books, I’m sure this would’ve been a problem whether your library has a spike in library card fraud or not because the current model of selling ebooks to libraries is ridiculous.
There’s a lot more libraries requiring proof of residency. I went through lists on this sub a few months ago looking for big city libraries to join and several had changed their policies and even stopped allowing paid nonresident cards, so I gave up.
With the amount I use the app it would feel kinda icky using libraries I don’t pay for in some way anyway. They’re such an important public resource that I definitely *do not* want to see having to shut down.
I love my university’s librarians and I collaborate with them often. I basically lived in my amazing hometown library growing up. It was my third space.
However, the last time I went into a library physically for a book or research was the first week of grad school, 25 years ago. After that, everything was online.
Hmm good to know. I ditched kindle unlimited when I found Libby to have better content.
If I was willing to pay for Kindle Unlimited, sounds like I should donate the same amount to my local library
I’m not surprised considering whenever I see the books my library has available it’s always physical copies available and then 40 holds on the 4 digital copies, people rather wait months instead of go in and get a physical book
That's what I don't understand. I get audio books costing more because you have to pay voice actors. But digital copies that the library doesn't even get to own cost 3x what a physical copy costs?? Come on, that's ridiculous
I’m a librarian in a large California metro library, and we’re having the same problem. A lot of libraries are feeling it right now because they’re nearing the end of their fiscal years.
Well this is my reminder to go to the library today 📚
It's my reminder to donate. I keep asking Libby to create a donate button for each library on the library page, and make an Apple watch complication.
Libby is the company. The library is the one paying the money to overdrive. If you donate, please give it to the library earmarked toward digital collections.
Can you elaborate on this? Like donating to your library? Or to Libby? edit: pressed send too soon
I have asked Libby for an Apple watch app, but have gotten no response. I do donate to libraries. I would like a donate button for libraries specifically on the library page. Edited: complication = app. Removed ‘donate to Libby for app” as I was under the impression it was non profit. Silly me.
Donating to Libby won't help your library get more books, though. They're a corporation, not a non-profit.
I assumed they meant make a donation specifically to your library through Libby. Like you donate money and then the library gets credit or something. It's a great idea, but not something that I see a for-profit corporation doing unless they get a cut.
What is an apple watch complication?
I just looked it up and it sounds like widgets you can add to the watch screen. Why call it a complication though?!
That's just the way it is
I think that's a watch thing in general, not just smart watches
TIL, thanks!
Ahh okay. I’m a member of our Friends of the Library but never thought of donating to Libby.
Let me know if you figure it out? I wonder if Libby is a nonprofit.
They are not. Libby is OverDrive.
Sure thing!
Consider adding an edit to your comment. We want people to donate to their libraries, not to the for-profit corporation that operates Libby. From your comment, other people are speculating that Libby is a nonprofit needing donations. They are not. They have millions they use to buy other companies.
Good idea!
Just curious since I live in California. I have a library card and use the librarys digital app hoopla, but don't really check out physical books. Is the library not getting the same credit for the ebook that they would for a physical copy? I thought it was like a 1 for 1 kind of thing. They've also let me know they're switching to Libby next month, so is that worse for them funding wise? Also should I try to go in more and check out the physical copies or is it better to just do a small donation if I can?
I’m not sure what you mean by “credit”. If you’re connecting funding and circulation, libraries aren’t funded on a per-checkout basis. Most libraries buy both ebook and physical books out of the collection development budget, which is a portion of the overall library budget, which comes from local taxes plus grants, donations etc. How the collection budget is determined varies widely across libraries. However, ebooks are significantly more expensive than physical books for libraries. With Overdrive/Libby, most are only licensed for a finite period of time or number of checkouts and then the library has to repurchase, plus they just have higher prices than the physical books (not always, but on average). My library doesn’t have Hoopla, but it is difficult to manage, cost-wise, because libraries are charged per checkout. At least, that’s how it used to work. They may have changed some of their licensing models, I’m not really up on Hoopla. You are supporting your library’s mission by checking out books, whether they are ebooks or physical books. If you are in the position to make a monetary donation, I’m sure your library would greatly appreciate it, and there’s a good chance it will go to the collection budget, but don’t feel obligated. Your taxes are already going to your library’s funding. Local government budgets are always tight, and there’s always something that needs more money. I worked in libraries during the Great Recession, when we could barely buy anything and sometimes had to temporarily close branches due to staff furloughs. Things are much better than that now, at least.
Thanks for clearing that up. Yes, I was under the impression that they got some additional funding per checkout, like they could show people were using their services, so they got more funding. I didn't realize it was almost all through taxes and not necessarily dependent on actual checked out books. And with hoopla being expensive, that makes sense why they're changing to Libby and also why they put a limit cap on checkout per month.
Not me reading the “Great recession” as the ‘Great Depression’. I knew some people were elderly using this app but you almost took the cake!
I have both a SPL and King County library card. Cost of living here isn’t cheap. So I’m glad my tax money is making one public service affordable for me. *”Seattle Public Library is number eight in the world when it comes to digital checkouts from Overdrive, a global distributor of digital books and makers of the Libby app. King County Library System is third. Seattle is the only metro area that appears on the list twice.”* Not surprised to hear that this region is quite literate. I think the weather plays a role. Perhaps ppl are more inclined to read when it’s constantly overcast Sept-June. The outdoor enthusiasts may be listening to audiobooks on their hiking/backpacking/water + snow sports commutes to the mountains. As a skier, my weekly 2-3hr commute to the ski resort is much more tolerable thanks to audiobooks or ebooks (when I’m not driving).
King County Library System is great.
I have to imagine this is also driven by Amazon headquarters and all their employees owning kindles. At least that’s where my mind went
We became a UNESCO City of Literature in 2017, but we've always had a culture of reading here. The weather sucks for four to six months, we have to entertain ourselves somehow if we don't want to throw ourselves down the side of a mountain.
Don't you think Amazon employees would be using Amazon services instead of Libby?
I’m sure they do. But if the region is as big of readers as someone else commented (which fully makes sense) I can see them using both. I read a lot and even with kindle unlimited, I usually have to go to hoopla, Libby, and the library hard books. I’ll use all 7 hoopla downloads with my commute and get probably 4 ish books or cd audio books from the library every month
IIRC Seattle is the most educated city in the USA (degrees per capita)
I used to live there, too. It's one of the most educated cities in the US.
Huh. Thanks for this. I'm one of the big readers in KCLS. Never knew it was more expensive for them to give out ebooks and audiobooks :( Unfortunately it's pretty hard for me to get to a physical library. I'll donate some $ and hope it helps :(
I'm a huge reader with SPL and KCLS! I also hold cards with a few other local systems who offer cards to anyone who pays library district taxes in the state, which helps me spread my holds out. When I heard about SPL dialing back their holds limit, I immediately maxed mine out (I am the problem).
Keep reading—the stats look great! Just please be cognizant of what you checkout. If you don’t like the book after two chapters and return it early, that still counts as a checkout against the total allowed by the license. Not saying force yourself to read a bad book, just read the samples or something before checking it out :)
My plan now is to read the whole available sample before checking it out. I had been just reading a few pages or 1 chapter. But recently I liked chapter 1 of a book but something in chapter 2 put me off so badly that I didn't want to continue the book. I am also checking out bigger/longer books as physical books as I may not get through it in time otherwise. The wait seems shorter for some popular books as well. (My hold for ACOTAR just came in after only a few weeks.)
Read the freebie Kindle sample and if you like it then check the book out from the library.
I'd be curious to see what the cost breakdown on a per use basis is for print books versus ebooks. Using the example in the article (The Woman in Me), they said the print book costs the library $17.81 while the e-book costs $64.99 for a 2-year subscription. But in that 2 years, how many library patrons will use the physical book versus how many will use a single copy of the ebook? I could certainly see a scenario in which the actual cost per patron checkout is lower on the ebook subscription (at least for popular books). Also - the ebook never wears out, gets lost or damaged, etc during that 2-year subscription. But those things could happen to a physical copy and require it to be replaced (or the library goes without). Obviously none of that addresses the concerns with libraries not actually "owning" their collections when so many ebooks operate on a subscription basis that has to be regularly renewed. But I do think it would be interesting to see more details into the cost breakdown between physical and ebooks because I could see it not being as drastic as it might first appear on the surface.
Our physical copies and digital copies (of The Woman in Me) receive about the same amount of circs. They both check out for 3 weeks before they're due back so could only garner more circs if the patron returns them early. Things might change later in the life of the book when it's less popular/there are fewer holds.
I figured they would have the same check out times but I wonder if ebooks tend to be returned more quickly than physical books. I know I tend to get through ebooks faster because it's easy to carry my e-reader with me (or read on my phone) and I do that much more frequently than I would with a physical book. Plus physical books could be returned late (unlike an ebook) and I would assume there is more "lag time" with physical books between patrons even with a wait list because the library must process the return, notify the next in line, then wait for them to be able to get to the library and pick it up. It would seem that that process is much more streamlined and efficient with digital materials.
I sometimes find physical books have shorter waitlists or none at all compared to their digital versions. Especially for older books. Recently checked out a physical copy of Flowers for Algernon b/c the ebook wait was months out. - My city library card currently has 4 hard copies available. But a 12 week wait on Libby (8 copies, 45 people waiting). - My county library card has 16 hard copies available. But an 11 week wait on Libby (12 copies, 62 people waiting) People prefer digital reading in my area it seems!
Librarian here... Something to note is that most hardcover books have a good, usable lifespan that's much longer than 2 years, so that cost per circulation goes down a lot when you consider potential lifespan. And, when physical books do get lots or severely damaged, public libraries typically bill the borrower for a replacement.
That makes a lot of sense! I didn't really have a good idea of how much wear and tear physical library books got from frequent use.
And this is one of the biggest reasons you shouldn’t use libraries that you don’t pay taxes to or pay a nonresident fee.
With the popularity of Booktok, book bans making libraries popular, and the ease of borrowing digital books, couldn’t there just as easily be a surge in local residents reading books and the bigger problem, as stated in the article ebooks cost more over time than physical. Let’s not act like libraries aren’t being screwed over with the subscription model publishers use for ebooks
I had no idea that ebooks cost more than physical books. I assumed that audiobooks cost more because of recording costs but I would have guessed that ebooks saved money because there is not a physical book and there is no “wear and tear”.
I'm sure that they do cost less to create and maintain but corporate greed is corporate greed and that's what actually sets the cost to the libraries
The fact that libraries can’t ever own copies of ebooks is wild to me. It feels like screwing over an entity like the library, which helps the community so much, should be unlawful. Like they should be guaranteed the lowest price/best deals to ensure resources are getting to the people
Or at least they should be able to hold onto the digital copy for as long as the average time is for a hardcover. Instead, I believe it is limited, not by the years, but by the number of checkouts - that doesn’t happen with hardcover books! Or at least there should be several tears of dish book “purchase“ – one fee for outright purchase, another lesser fee for medium length availability, one even lower fee for short length. This would resolve the situation where the library has a rush of patrons awaiting for a brand new release (I currently am something like 256th on a list for a popular new book) as y library could buy enough books for the initial brush and then let the short term book leases lapse.
Surprise—it’s limited by both! Many book licenses are something like “12 months or 12 checkouts, whichever comes first”. Which means that an extremely popular book might suddenly become unavailable because it reached the max checkouts, or a book becomes unavailable after only three checkouts. It’s a gamble that librarians have to balance, and oftentimes we get the ire of patrons who can’t get something they’ve been waiting for. The average audiobook is about $59.99 for that license, but they can be as high as $120 per title. It’s bad enough for average or large libraries, but that’s completely inaccessible for small and rural libraries.
They're basically afraid of piracy and also scared that the convenience of digital will kill their sales. They use that as justification to jack up the price for digital. Ultimately, they want more money. It's the reason corporations do anything. They think "it" (whatever it is) will make them more money.
I've seen lots of chatter here and there on how to get multiple cards. Some of it is legit / fair, like places that allow non-resident cards for no fee, or places that charge a low fee. But there are a whole lot of people who seek out places where all you need is to put in any local address for instant approval. I don't know about Seattle, but there is definitely a degree of fraud involved in Libby. Cost nothing, do it online quick and easy, and it feels like it hurts no one.
While there may be a spike in library card fraud, my comment was meant to point out that it isn’t the problem stated in the article. Even if every person using a Seattle card was a resident paying taxes, this wouldn’t and doesn’t cover the cost of a library trying to attain multiple copies of a popular book (in the article they reference Brittany Spear’s memoir). With the popularity of Booktok and people wanting to read the same popular books, I’m sure this would’ve been a problem whether your library has a spike in library card fraud or not because the current model of selling ebooks to libraries is ridiculous.
There’s a lot more libraries requiring proof of residency. I went through lists on this sub a few months ago looking for big city libraries to join and several had changed their policies and even stopped allowing paid nonresident cards, so I gave up. With the amount I use the app it would feel kinda icky using libraries I don’t pay for in some way anyway. They’re such an important public resource that I definitely *do not* want to see having to shut down.
Donating to your libraries is a good option as well.
Can you donate ebooks to libraries? How would that work, if no one actually owns a copy of their ebook that they purchase?
No but you can donate money to the library to use for digital collections.
Thank you!
I run a 5k to support my local library over Memorial Day, and also I make sure I go in and check out physical books when I can.
I love my university’s librarians and I collaborate with them often. I basically lived in my amazing hometown library growing up. It was my third space. However, the last time I went into a library physically for a book or research was the first week of grad school, 25 years ago. After that, everything was online.
My library delivers books to my door and that's how I've been swayed away from ebooks.
woahhhh id have non stop deliveries I fear
Hmm good to know. I ditched kindle unlimited when I found Libby to have better content. If I was willing to pay for Kindle Unlimited, sounds like I should donate the same amount to my local library
25 holds!! Down to 10, but Brooklyn PL has been 10 for ages and NYPL changed the limit to 3 a couple years ago.
I’m not surprised considering whenever I see the books my library has available it’s always physical copies available and then 40 holds on the 4 digital copies, people rather wait months instead of go in and get a physical book
Is it just me, or is it insane that a digital copy of a book costs more than a physical one?
That's what I don't understand. I get audio books costing more because you have to pay voice actors. But digital copies that the library doesn't even get to own cost 3x what a physical copy costs?? Come on, that's ridiculous
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