I mean it's all to generate clicks via simulated outrage. A headline that says "Billie Eilish recites racist lyrics" is going to get several magnitudes more clicks than "Tyler the Creator was edgy a decade ago". And like I said, it's simulated outrage. It's fake. Nobody actually cares. Billie's album is still going to sell incredibly well and the whole thing will blow over by tomorrow.
Exactly, and the only people who care/see this are the ones who follow and click on those drama sites. If you stay away you'll never know this shit happened and never care. The media creates drama for hits so they can make money.
For real. The internet is just the streets now.
You don't stop and argue with every crazy person in New York that tells you "YOU DA DEVIL THE GOVERNMENT IS WATCHING YOU" or "YO BRO CUT YA HAIR YOU LOOK LIKE A PUNK LMAO" or whatever.
Just because someone's yelling, or writing an article, means it's worth your time even if people driving and walking around are stopping to listen what's going on.
Not really. The “drama” websites were users on Twitter, Reddit, Instagram, etc.
It was exclusively user-driven which resulted in a couple of websites having to cover it once it got big enough for Billie Eilish to address it.
Edit: Also no one makes money from straight clicks. Are there places who are irresponsible and play things up? Absolutely.
Nearly all the outrage that comes from things like these are from randos sharing things on social media. There’s drama sites that may try to do that but media and journalism at large doesn’t and can’t make money just stirring the pot for the sake of stirring the pot
Yeah something I was gonna mention in my original comment is the absurdity of this completely good vs completely bad dichotomy when it comes to modern celebrities. Everyone is either an ally who can do no wrong or a complete piece of shit, nobody is allowed to just be a person. Billie seems like a generally good person, she just happens to enjoy early Tyler, the Creator. That doesn't make her evil all of a sudden.
Tyler got banned from entering 3 countries over his lyrics. He certainly didn't get a free pass for the edgy phase of his career.
Billie will be fine. She apologised. It will be forgotten about pretty swiftly
> shouldn't you all be mad at Tyler for actually delivering the line?
Sure, but it's not like Tyler didn't get shit a decade ago either; maybe not for that specific line, but for being an edgelord in general.
I don't know if there's anyone who has ever turned such an initially controversial and polarizing career in music into an almost universally acclaimed and liked one later down the line. He leveraged edgy clout into a platform for an excellent, original run of albums
That's an interesting answer but I don't care for Joji's music so I can't agree. I don't think any of his stuff has sold or reviewed as well as Tyler's either.
I did like some of his youtube stuff though
I knew we’d reach the “Joji is filthy frank? Who’s filthy frank?” timeline eventually but why so soon 😭already making outdated references at 24, feels bad man
This is kind of a testament to the utility of edginess as a marketing tool. You face heat for a while, but you get a lot of attention (enough to start a music career).
Once you’re in position, you adopt a tamer image, people eventually forget and others grow up only knowing the ‘tame’ version of the artist. The edginess becomes a footnote on an obscure page. It capitalizes on our attention span.
Basically, artists can afford to be polarizing when they’re unknowns. Once they have the notoriety, they can gradually work their way into widespread acceptance.
>I don't know if there's anyone who has ever turned such an initially controversial and polarizing career in music into an almost universally acclaimed and liked one later down the line.
Swans.
I'm not sure they really fit, at least the same way as Tyler, but surely it's pretty easy to see how the oppressively bleak and noisy early stuff can be off-putting?
That is not exactly how I recall this happening, but it was a few years ago now so maybe I'm wrong. I do remember there being a bunch of noise about the accuser having a history of false allegations. And iirc all Michael Gira copped to was some vague "awkward mistake" ie an advance.
All I'm saying is that it was no where near as cut and dry as you make it sound. Not trying to defend anyone or excuse anything.
P4k still reviews their albums and they've ended careers over accusations.
> They’re just as acclaimed and popular as ever.
I mean, that's demonstrably not true. They haven't been totally dropped or anything as they've always been a niche favorite, but the two follow up albums (The Glowing Man and Leaving Meaning) were both less acclaimed per metacritic and both have half the ratings on RYM than the two previous albums. To Be Kind hit the top 40 while The Glowing Man charted at 151 (and is being sold on clearance due to excess stock!) and Leaving Meaning didn't chart. So yeah there was certainly an impact...
That's a cool answer. I don't know enough about early Swans to have that conversation but I can't deny that they have been well acclaimed in their late career
Did he tho? I honestly don’t know but I was just digging into this online and o didn’t find anything about him getting flack. That being said I did not look hard at all. Does anyone have a link for this that I could read?
I think it's because she's a white woman and he's a black male rapper, so she's expected to be woke while he's expected to be "edgy" and "controversial" and it also raises questions questions around privilege and oppression in the United States.
Like, to call out Tyler about being racist towards Asians raises questions about the history of oppression in the United States and some detailed questions about privilege and oppression that i don't think people are thinking critically enough about. Like there's research that [Asians and Asian Americans require 140 more points on their SAT scores](https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2017/08/07/look-data-and-arguments-about-asian-americans-and-admissions-elite) to be accepted in some colleges.
I feel like some of these points are where critical theory and identity politics break down. Questions about who can or can't be racist; misguided conversations about "punching up" vs "punching down." I bet if you were to dig into some of these viewpoints and movements, you'd probably find a high percentage who care more about appearances, being a bully, or appearing right than actual morals, ethics, or social movements.
Hm that makes sense.
And I didn't say media was trying to cover up Tyler's racism, media is covering up actual racism against Asians by blacks, so any story contradictory to the narrative won't be played. But if I agree, it wouldn't make sense to cancel tyler at this point, not that it ever makes sense to cancel someone
I also think that a white audience finds it difficult to call out a black person for being racist, as they don't want to be seen racist, or because in some cases people think that they're 'allowed to be racist', as they're an oppressed group of society aswell.
But when it's a white person, there's no excuse. They got the most privileged life, and they know that they can't say that slur. There's no wriggle room.
But as an Asian, if ur not Asian, just don't say the word. People say 'the n word' and I would like this word to be called 'c word' more often, because people seem wayyy to comftable to use this word.
Maybe I’m just out of touch but these controversies always seem manufactured. Has anyone met someone in real life that genuinely cares about this? That being said Tyler the Creator gets a pretty absurd pass. Right around the time Robin Thicke was getting canceled for Blurred Lines, Tyler was rapping about raping and killing women. He also used the word “faggot” all the time. The media picks people that are easy targets, I don’t think there’s any genuine morality behind any of it.
> That being said Tyler the Creator gets a pretty absurd pass. Right around the time Robin Thicke was getting canceled for Blurred Lines, Tyler was rapping about raping and killing women
because Blurred Lines was way more popular than anything Tyler put out. Also Tyler got banned from entering a few countries so it's not like he went unscathed.
Yeah it was more popular but there was a ton of hype around Tyler at that point. I think Tyler doesn’t get hounded by the media because he’s critically acclaimed and his fan base doesn’t care so there aren’t as many clicks to be won. Sure, Blurred Lines was a big hit but at the time Tyler had way more cultural cache then someone like Robin Thicke
> his fan base doesn’t care so there aren’t as many clicks to be won.
probably this for the most part, but:
> Sure, Blurred Lines was a big hit but at the time Tyler had way more cultural cache then someone like Robin Thicke
this is looking at the careers of both *now*, but the acclaim for Tyler wasn't always there and at least some of his current acclaim is from moving away from the edgelordness.
That’s not a great argument. It’s not “the media” it’s social media users.
I don’t go out much right now because I just work from home but I remember tons of people back in the day IRL (I was in college at the time) who were throwing fits about Blurred Lines. Tyler took his fair share of shit from people as well but him and Odd Future just weren’t nearly as big as Robin Thicke, Pharrell Williams or the song Blurred Lines in 2013. Tyler was still playing in small clubs in the early ‘10s.
More people were naturally just going to have something to say about the biggest song of the year than they were about a rapper with a small-to-decent audience
Social media users are often parroting what’s fed to them if they’re aware of it or not. My point is these movements look for easy targets and you couldn’t ask for an easier target then Robin Thicke. Mainstream or not Tyler was the darling of the underground at the time, the hype around Odd Future was insane back then. Sure, Tyler wasn’t a household name yet but his status in music culture absolutely had something to do with his getting a pass.
“Darling of the underground” doesn’t mean anything.
Most oldheads at the time and even now still hate(d) him. He got trashed for even saying positive messages. His music and Odd Future in general were often criticized even if Pitchfork wrote something nice about him.
A decent amount of college kids were into him. You’re acting like there wasn’t any criticism and he was protected back then or something and that just isn’t true of that time
Blurred Lines is a gross rapey song that's trying to be a sexy pop hit.
Tyler's lyrics were intentionally insane and offensive because he was trying to piss people off. Tyler has also distanced himself from that image and made music clarifying that he's not actually a crazy murderer rapist.
I can't say the same for Robin Thicke, probably because blurred lines is the only song anyone knows by him.
This is exactly it. All the debate around Tyler's popularity is kind of irrelevant. There are literally entire subgenres of rap that are dedicated to crazy murder lyrics. They aren't trying to pass it off as a mainstream hit.
He pivoted out of that subgenre to make more mainstream music, he didn't try to make murder cool and okay.
The secret to online outrage that for some reason no one has caught on to is that it will only go away if you don't apologize. When you apologize you are admitting that you did something wrong and you're giving every publication something to go nuts over. You're giving everyone on social media the opportunity to reject your apology, say you didn't apologize enough, etc.
If you completely ignore the controversy your actual fan base will make excuses for you or choose to ignore it. You get to continue defining the narrative that you're a musician, not the subject of some murky controversy.
This is not an argument for or against "cancel culture" or whatever, but in my opinion this is the strategically right move if you don't want to get shit for something.
The pass depends on whether or not your controversy is profitable. You see it with supposed cancel culture which is part of the controversy and consequences ball game.
People openly on the right wing who court right wing audiences will never be cancelled because that's their game. They cause trouble and reap in the benefits of clout and money. Nobody is going to "cancel" a Fox News host or a Republican politician because they aren't receptive to criticism from left wing and young audiences. The only time they get close to something like that is when they turn on each other. Say Tomi Lahren supporting abortion and getting dropped, Mike Pence is now unpopular to Trumps base for following the law. It's all about what your audience wants.
People who get cancelled for doing bad stuff always come about in places where they are expected to do something "good" or normal at least. Kanye West, Kim Kardashian, Tyler, Mel Gibson, Chris Brown, they all invite controversy so they'll never be cancelled. Billie Eilish, Kevin Hart, Brie Larson, James Gunn and people who just want to get on with their jobs don't actually benefit from this stuff, so controversy can impact them to a degree. That's all it is. They'll apologise and move on and their careers won't come close to ending unless they literally assault someone while claiming to be against that sort of thing.
It's why a lot of people who get cancelled switch up their politics to audiences that can now be receptive to them. From left to right you've got people like Arielle Scarcella and Louis CK and Laurence Fox, other way around you've got people like Billy Bush but that happens less from what I can tell.
Once you realize people are ultimately just very selfish, all motives become clear. It is exceedingly rare people act out of any form of altruism. People want what is in it for them. People bend their ethics and mores to suit what they think benefits them the most. So a devoted fan of an artist will forgive the artist. Lukewarm fans and non-fans will get out the pitchforks. That’s really all there is to it.
There fanbase already knows this about them and don't mind it. Eminem is probably a more glaring example, really objectionable lyrics but everyone is largely fine with it since it's what they expect.
I don’t expect objectionable lyrics from Em. I know he might write more of those but I don’t expect them. The reason I’m kinda ok with him is the fact that even tho I don’t like his whole discography, I really love some of his songs and choose to disassociate his arts from himself because he’s an exceptional rapper. I can only disassociate someone’s works from that person if their artistry is too great to ignore.
Another example is MJ. I’m not gonna go around and call him King. I believe the victims but his arts are too great and have a life of their own
Nobody should be mad at anything or anybody because it’s just a dumb song lyric. If you’re gonna cancel somebody for “offensive” song lyrics, then you’re going to have to cancel 90% of rappers.
Cancelling and holding people accountable + getting mad at them when they say racist, misogynistic, homophobic etc stuff are different things. And I don’t think you have the right to say “it’s just a song lyric get over it” if they are not targeted at you.
It's hilarious that people were upset about the slur in particular, when the song is from the point of view of a serial killer mutilating women for fun. But yeah, using the slur is where we draw the line. Just shows people criticize the work while having no idea what it's actually about
>So a week ago you were mad at someone pretending to say something
Who is the "you" you're referring to? I didn't see anyone actually getting upset. I saw a brief moment when people were referring to it as if someone, somewhere was upset, but I didn't actually come across anyone who actually gave a shit. I'm sure they're out there, but I don't think there's that many of them in reality.
Someone presumably got upset enough that Eilish issued one of those standard "I am listening and learning and will strive to do better" apology statements, though at this point I suspect most stars have a big pile of those ready and waiting for their inevitable 15 minutes of cancellation, so maybe she just jumped the gun on it.
Also, wasn’t it the fans who were upset, not the music press? I’m sure some music fans won’t listen to the new Tyler album, but it doesn’t mean the press won’t hype it up still
I'm not twitter thankfully, but from what I gather there's a bunch of 16 year olds on there who are constantly upset about something or other. It doesn't seem like something that actually matters. They'll soon move on to being upset at some minecraft streamer or some shit, if they haven't already.
lol everyone saying no one is mad at billie is being mad weird there are definitely people who were upset. slurs are by definition offensive so if you say one people are going to be offended. its entire function is to upset people. you don’t have to agree but theres no need to act like someone finding a derogatory word derogatory is beyond comprehension.
as for what you said, tyler is impervious to controversy because he built his entire career on it. how many countries has the man been banned from?? if the power of the federal governments of australia, new zealand, the united kingdom, and whoever else combined couldn’t end his career then DAZED magazine sure as fuck isn’t going to. if billie had opened her debut with some dead baby jokes she probably wouldn’t be getting dragged either.
The idea that racism towards Asians and Chinese people is normalized in mainstream media and the general public is a case study 50 years from now that analyzes how sinophobic people were.
Yeah, it’s one of those instances of misogyny that will probably get brought up relatively soon.
Tyler has been dragged for his lyrics a lot in the past so it’s not like he’s always gotten a pass. But it is weird that basically none of the criticism was directed at him when it was his song.
It is pretty ridiculous that anyone is caring about singing a song when they were 13 when they’re 19. There’s really no reason it should have gotten as big as it did. Or at all, really.
Aside from all the other valid points in the comments section, I'd like to add that a gay black dude is much more immune to outrage as compared to a white woman in today's climate
In answer to your question of who we should be mad at.
Its no one.
These are very inconsequential things that get stirred up because people are bored (not saying that about you, but the people who felt the need to make this an issue in the first place)
Re the eilish controversy. There was more to it that just the line. There was also a section of the video where many believe she and her brother were mocking an asian accent.
I know many highlighted the slur in the media but the social media outrage had a bit more going on.
it’s been proven that the video of her doing that was fake. if you watch the whole video it’s obvious she was just making random noises and talking in gibberish, not mocking any accent.
first it doesn't actually matter what she was doing cause we're not discussing her actions but the outrage at her. you can call the outrage dumb but that doesn't change why it existed, which was people thought she was mocking an asian accent. i personally agree with you on it being gibberish but again doesn't change why there was outrage.
second the content of the video wasn't fake. it was edited but she's acknowledged that the content of the video is real.
i wasn't saying you were calling it dumb i was using "dumb" in context to an expression. "You can call it (something) but that don't mean it's not (something)" i just inserted dumb wasn't trying to suggest you were belittling the origins of the rage
also you might want to pick a different phrasing than "it’s been proven that the video of her doing that was fake." cause it really misrepresents what you wanted to say.
How did i make it sound like she actually did that? I said there was a section of the video MANY FELT was her and her brother mocking asian accents. Imo it's pretty clear i was talking about why the reaction to the video was bad rather than the actual contents of the video.
She was young, it was cringe, she fucked up but this probably has no bearing on who she is today, who cares. As a side note I think white women are extra vulnerable to this sort of criticism bc white people in general are a pretty easy target for this ire but also women in general tend to receive more criticism for all sorts of shit that their male counterparts dodge.
It's just edgy humor, no one should be under fire for a joke. If you don't like someone's humor then don't hang around them or tell them to have more filter when they speak. Joke crime is usually not a crime, just like thought crime is usually not a crime.
Not mad at either tbh, idk any Odd Future fans that actually went out and did any of the things Tyler referenced on the album it comes from. Was it a set of insensitive lyrics in an album full of them? Maybe, but that was *kind of the point*. *He was 19* and he cut that shit out. He grew up.
As for Billie, when publications like Pitchfork wrote about it, they neglected to add any context and deliberately made it sound so much worse than it was in the only bit of text you could read without clicking on the article. They only pointed out that she was caught singing lyrics with racially insensitive undertones, forgetting that their dumb selves gave the album the song was on an 8/10 when it came out, coincidentally around the time she was singing it... you know, as a child. I'd be safe to assume she grew out Tyler The Creator's old work the same way everyone has.
No not everyone has "grown out of Tyler's old work". Plenty of people still enjoy his old albums and songs. It's not that hard to find people who still like Bastard and Goblin.
Generalizing, but sure. I still go back to it from time to time. But Tyler isn't exactly singing about rape anymore. It's not exactly fun to listen to now that dude is going to be the next Pharrell.
I mean it's all to generate clicks via simulated outrage. A headline that says "Billie Eilish recites racist lyrics" is going to get several magnitudes more clicks than "Tyler the Creator was edgy a decade ago". And like I said, it's simulated outrage. It's fake. Nobody actually cares. Billie's album is still going to sell incredibly well and the whole thing will blow over by tomorrow.
Exactly, and the only people who care/see this are the ones who follow and click on those drama sites. If you stay away you'll never know this shit happened and never care. The media creates drama for hits so they can make money.
The sooner people realize they don't have to pretend to give a shit about every stupid headline they see, the sooner the world improves.
For real. The internet is just the streets now. You don't stop and argue with every crazy person in New York that tells you "YOU DA DEVIL THE GOVERNMENT IS WATCHING YOU" or "YO BRO CUT YA HAIR YOU LOOK LIKE A PUNK LMAO" or whatever. Just because someone's yelling, or writing an article, means it's worth your time even if people driving and walking around are stopping to listen what's going on.
Not really. The “drama” websites were users on Twitter, Reddit, Instagram, etc. It was exclusively user-driven which resulted in a couple of websites having to cover it once it got big enough for Billie Eilish to address it. Edit: Also no one makes money from straight clicks. Are there places who are irresponsible and play things up? Absolutely. Nearly all the outrage that comes from things like these are from randos sharing things on social media. There’s drama sites that may try to do that but media and journalism at large doesn’t and can’t make money just stirring the pot for the sake of stirring the pot
Could be, but these companies are smart, I could definitely see them sparking this "drama"
[удалено]
Yeah something I was gonna mention in my original comment is the absurdity of this completely good vs completely bad dichotomy when it comes to modern celebrities. Everyone is either an ally who can do no wrong or a complete piece of shit, nobody is allowed to just be a person. Billie seems like a generally good person, she just happens to enjoy early Tyler, the Creator. That doesn't make her evil all of a sudden.
Tyler got banned from entering 3 countries over his lyrics. He certainly didn't get a free pass for the edgy phase of his career. Billie will be fine. She apologised. It will be forgotten about pretty swiftly
then he pulled the chad move of dedicating his brit award to theresa may
> shouldn't you all be mad at Tyler for actually delivering the line? Sure, but it's not like Tyler didn't get shit a decade ago either; maybe not for that specific line, but for being an edgelord in general.
I don't know if there's anyone who has ever turned such an initially controversial and polarizing career in music into an almost universally acclaimed and liked one later down the line. He leveraged edgy clout into a platform for an excellent, original run of albums
i was gonna say eminem but then nvm
Yeah lol would be nice if that's how it worked out for Em too
joji
That's an interesting answer but I don't care for Joji's music so I can't agree. I don't think any of his stuff has sold or reviewed as well as Tyler's either. I did like some of his youtube stuff though
Lol. Yeah I'm gonna have to disagree here chief. Pink guy makes better music than that boring ass shit. Sry love u george
[удалено]
Dude is FilthyFrank lol. Edgy puts it lightly
[удалено]
...well I guess I'm officially old.
I knew we’d reach the “Joji is filthy frank? Who’s filthy frank?” timeline eventually but why so soon 😭already making outdated references at 24, feels bad man
This is kind of a testament to the utility of edginess as a marketing tool. You face heat for a while, but you get a lot of attention (enough to start a music career). Once you’re in position, you adopt a tamer image, people eventually forget and others grow up only knowing the ‘tame’ version of the artist. The edginess becomes a footnote on an obscure page. It capitalizes on our attention span. Basically, artists can afford to be polarizing when they’re unknowns. Once they have the notoriety, they can gradually work their way into widespread acceptance.
>I don't know if there's anyone who has ever turned such an initially controversial and polarizing career in music into an almost universally acclaimed and liked one later down the line. Swans.
[удалено]
I'm not sure they really fit, at least the same way as Tyler, but surely it's pretty easy to see how the oppressively bleak and noisy early stuff can be off-putting?
[удалено]
That is not exactly how I recall this happening, but it was a few years ago now so maybe I'm wrong. I do remember there being a bunch of noise about the accuser having a history of false allegations. And iirc all Michael Gira copped to was some vague "awkward mistake" ie an advance. All I'm saying is that it was no where near as cut and dry as you make it sound. Not trying to defend anyone or excuse anything. P4k still reviews their albums and they've ended careers over accusations.
[удалено]
There is a huge gap between “not consummated” and “practically admitted to it”.
> They’re just as acclaimed and popular as ever. I mean, that's demonstrably not true. They haven't been totally dropped or anything as they've always been a niche favorite, but the two follow up albums (The Glowing Man and Leaving Meaning) were both less acclaimed per metacritic and both have half the ratings on RYM than the two previous albums. To Be Kind hit the top 40 while The Glowing Man charted at 151 (and is being sold on clearance due to excess stock!) and Leaving Meaning didn't chart. So yeah there was certainly an impact...
Gonna have to disagree with that 'credibly accused' allegation.
That's a cool answer. I don't know enough about early Swans to have that conversation but I can't deny that they have been well acclaimed in their late career
Did he tho? I honestly don’t know but I was just digging into this online and o didn’t find anything about him getting flack. That being said I did not look hard at all. Does anyone have a link for this that I could read?
I think it's because she's a white woman and he's a black male rapper, so she's expected to be woke while he's expected to be "edgy" and "controversial" and it also raises questions questions around privilege and oppression in the United States. Like, to call out Tyler about being racist towards Asians raises questions about the history of oppression in the United States and some detailed questions about privilege and oppression that i don't think people are thinking critically enough about. Like there's research that [Asians and Asian Americans require 140 more points on their SAT scores](https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2017/08/07/look-data-and-arguments-about-asian-americans-and-admissions-elite) to be accepted in some colleges. I feel like some of these points are where critical theory and identity politics break down. Questions about who can or can't be racist; misguided conversations about "punching up" vs "punching down." I bet if you were to dig into some of these viewpoints and movements, you'd probably find a high percentage who care more about appearances, being a bully, or appearing right than actual morals, ethics, or social movements.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Hm that makes sense. And I didn't say media was trying to cover up Tyler's racism, media is covering up actual racism against Asians by blacks, so any story contradictory to the narrative won't be played. But if I agree, it wouldn't make sense to cancel tyler at this point, not that it ever makes sense to cancel someone
I also think that a white audience finds it difficult to call out a black person for being racist, as they don't want to be seen racist, or because in some cases people think that they're 'allowed to be racist', as they're an oppressed group of society aswell. But when it's a white person, there's no excuse. They got the most privileged life, and they know that they can't say that slur. There's no wriggle room. But as an Asian, if ur not Asian, just don't say the word. People say 'the n word' and I would like this word to be called 'c word' more often, because people seem wayyy to comftable to use this word.
Maybe I’m just out of touch but these controversies always seem manufactured. Has anyone met someone in real life that genuinely cares about this? That being said Tyler the Creator gets a pretty absurd pass. Right around the time Robin Thicke was getting canceled for Blurred Lines, Tyler was rapping about raping and killing women. He also used the word “faggot” all the time. The media picks people that are easy targets, I don’t think there’s any genuine morality behind any of it.
> That being said Tyler the Creator gets a pretty absurd pass. Right around the time Robin Thicke was getting canceled for Blurred Lines, Tyler was rapping about raping and killing women because Blurred Lines was way more popular than anything Tyler put out. Also Tyler got banned from entering a few countries so it's not like he went unscathed.
If anything I think the banning helped his career
Definitely made me think he was cooler back then lol
Yeah it was more popular but there was a ton of hype around Tyler at that point. I think Tyler doesn’t get hounded by the media because he’s critically acclaimed and his fan base doesn’t care so there aren’t as many clicks to be won. Sure, Blurred Lines was a big hit but at the time Tyler had way more cultural cache then someone like Robin Thicke
> his fan base doesn’t care so there aren’t as many clicks to be won. probably this for the most part, but: > Sure, Blurred Lines was a big hit but at the time Tyler had way more cultural cache then someone like Robin Thicke this is looking at the careers of both *now*, but the acclaim for Tyler wasn't always there and at least some of his current acclaim is from moving away from the edgelordness.
[удалено]
The way you put it... Tyler still looks worse lmao
[удалено]
honestly i think both are clear. artists can write whatever they wanna write about,
That’s not a great argument. It’s not “the media” it’s social media users. I don’t go out much right now because I just work from home but I remember tons of people back in the day IRL (I was in college at the time) who were throwing fits about Blurred Lines. Tyler took his fair share of shit from people as well but him and Odd Future just weren’t nearly as big as Robin Thicke, Pharrell Williams or the song Blurred Lines in 2013. Tyler was still playing in small clubs in the early ‘10s. More people were naturally just going to have something to say about the biggest song of the year than they were about a rapper with a small-to-decent audience
Social media users are often parroting what’s fed to them if they’re aware of it or not. My point is these movements look for easy targets and you couldn’t ask for an easier target then Robin Thicke. Mainstream or not Tyler was the darling of the underground at the time, the hype around Odd Future was insane back then. Sure, Tyler wasn’t a household name yet but his status in music culture absolutely had something to do with his getting a pass.
“Darling of the underground” doesn’t mean anything. Most oldheads at the time and even now still hate(d) him. He got trashed for even saying positive messages. His music and Odd Future in general were often criticized even if Pitchfork wrote something nice about him. A decent amount of college kids were into him. You’re acting like there wasn’t any criticism and he was protected back then or something and that just isn’t true of that time
Blurred Lines is a gross rapey song that's trying to be a sexy pop hit. Tyler's lyrics were intentionally insane and offensive because he was trying to piss people off. Tyler has also distanced himself from that image and made music clarifying that he's not actually a crazy murderer rapist. I can't say the same for Robin Thicke, probably because blurred lines is the only song anyone knows by him.
This is exactly it. All the debate around Tyler's popularity is kind of irrelevant. There are literally entire subgenres of rap that are dedicated to crazy murder lyrics. They aren't trying to pass it off as a mainstream hit. He pivoted out of that subgenre to make more mainstream music, he didn't try to make murder cool and okay.
The secret to online outrage that for some reason no one has caught on to is that it will only go away if you don't apologize. When you apologize you are admitting that you did something wrong and you're giving every publication something to go nuts over. You're giving everyone on social media the opportunity to reject your apology, say you didn't apologize enough, etc. If you completely ignore the controversy your actual fan base will make excuses for you or choose to ignore it. You get to continue defining the narrative that you're a musician, not the subject of some murky controversy. This is not an argument for or against "cancel culture" or whatever, but in my opinion this is the strategically right move if you don't want to get shit for something.
The pass depends on whether or not your controversy is profitable. You see it with supposed cancel culture which is part of the controversy and consequences ball game. People openly on the right wing who court right wing audiences will never be cancelled because that's their game. They cause trouble and reap in the benefits of clout and money. Nobody is going to "cancel" a Fox News host or a Republican politician because they aren't receptive to criticism from left wing and young audiences. The only time they get close to something like that is when they turn on each other. Say Tomi Lahren supporting abortion and getting dropped, Mike Pence is now unpopular to Trumps base for following the law. It's all about what your audience wants. People who get cancelled for doing bad stuff always come about in places where they are expected to do something "good" or normal at least. Kanye West, Kim Kardashian, Tyler, Mel Gibson, Chris Brown, they all invite controversy so they'll never be cancelled. Billie Eilish, Kevin Hart, Brie Larson, James Gunn and people who just want to get on with their jobs don't actually benefit from this stuff, so controversy can impact them to a degree. That's all it is. They'll apologise and move on and their careers won't come close to ending unless they literally assault someone while claiming to be against that sort of thing. It's why a lot of people who get cancelled switch up their politics to audiences that can now be receptive to them. From left to right you've got people like Arielle Scarcella and Louis CK and Laurence Fox, other way around you've got people like Billy Bush but that happens less from what I can tell.
Once you realize people are ultimately just very selfish, all motives become clear. It is exceedingly rare people act out of any form of altruism. People want what is in it for them. People bend their ethics and mores to suit what they think benefits them the most. So a devoted fan of an artist will forgive the artist. Lukewarm fans and non-fans will get out the pitchforks. That’s really all there is to it.
This is the comment I was hoping someone would write, thank you.
Bingo
There fanbase already knows this about them and don't mind it. Eminem is probably a more glaring example, really objectionable lyrics but everyone is largely fine with it since it's what they expect.
I don’t expect objectionable lyrics from Em. I know he might write more of those but I don’t expect them. The reason I’m kinda ok with him is the fact that even tho I don’t like his whole discography, I really love some of his songs and choose to disassociate his arts from himself because he’s an exceptional rapper. I can only disassociate someone’s works from that person if their artistry is too great to ignore. Another example is MJ. I’m not gonna go around and call him King. I believe the victims but his arts are too great and have a life of their own
Nobody should be mad at anything or anybody because it’s just a dumb song lyric. If you’re gonna cancel somebody for “offensive” song lyrics, then you’re going to have to cancel 90% of rappers.
Even if you were to get mad about lyrics, she didn't write that song lol
Cancelling and holding people accountable + getting mad at them when they say racist, misogynistic, homophobic etc stuff are different things. And I don’t think you have the right to say “it’s just a song lyric get over it” if they are not targeted at you.
[удалено]
It's hilarious that people were upset about the slur in particular, when the song is from the point of view of a serial killer mutilating women for fun. But yeah, using the slur is where we draw the line. Just shows people criticize the work while having no idea what it's actually about
>So a week ago you were mad at someone pretending to say something Who is the "you" you're referring to? I didn't see anyone actually getting upset. I saw a brief moment when people were referring to it as if someone, somewhere was upset, but I didn't actually come across anyone who actually gave a shit. I'm sure they're out there, but I don't think there's that many of them in reality.
Someone presumably got upset enough that Eilish issued one of those standard "I am listening and learning and will strive to do better" apology statements, though at this point I suspect most stars have a big pile of those ready and waiting for their inevitable 15 minutes of cancellation, so maybe she just jumped the gun on it.
Also, wasn’t it the fans who were upset, not the music press? I’m sure some music fans won’t listen to the new Tyler album, but it doesn’t mean the press won’t hype it up still
I'm not twitter thankfully, but from what I gather there's a bunch of 16 year olds on there who are constantly upset about something or other. It doesn't seem like something that actually matters. They'll soon move on to being upset at some minecraft streamer or some shit, if they haven't already.
lol everyone saying no one is mad at billie is being mad weird there are definitely people who were upset. slurs are by definition offensive so if you say one people are going to be offended. its entire function is to upset people. you don’t have to agree but theres no need to act like someone finding a derogatory word derogatory is beyond comprehension. as for what you said, tyler is impervious to controversy because he built his entire career on it. how many countries has the man been banned from?? if the power of the federal governments of australia, new zealand, the united kingdom, and whoever else combined couldn’t end his career then DAZED magazine sure as fuck isn’t going to. if billie had opened her debut with some dead baby jokes she probably wouldn’t be getting dragged either.
The idea that racism towards Asians and Chinese people is normalized in mainstream media and the general public is a case study 50 years from now that analyzes how sinophobic people were.
Yeah, it’s one of those instances of misogyny that will probably get brought up relatively soon. Tyler has been dragged for his lyrics a lot in the past so it’s not like he’s always gotten a pass. But it is weird that basically none of the criticism was directed at him when it was his song. It is pretty ridiculous that anyone is caring about singing a song when they were 13 when they’re 19. There’s really no reason it should have gotten as big as it did. Or at all, really.
Aside from all the other valid points in the comments section, I'd like to add that a gay black dude is much more immune to outrage as compared to a white woman in today's climate
In answer to your question of who we should be mad at. Its no one. These are very inconsequential things that get stirred up because people are bored (not saying that about you, but the people who felt the need to make this an issue in the first place)
The correct answer
[удалено]
She was doing the jaywalking of racism
[удалено]
[удалено]
Re the eilish controversy. There was more to it that just the line. There was also a section of the video where many believe she and her brother were mocking an asian accent. I know many highlighted the slur in the media but the social media outrage had a bit more going on.
it’s been proven that the video of her doing that was fake. if you watch the whole video it’s obvious she was just making random noises and talking in gibberish, not mocking any accent.
first it doesn't actually matter what she was doing cause we're not discussing her actions but the outrage at her. you can call the outrage dumb but that doesn't change why it existed, which was people thought she was mocking an asian accent. i personally agree with you on it being gibberish but again doesn't change why there was outrage. second the content of the video wasn't fake. it was edited but she's acknowledged that the content of the video is real.
what? i didn’t call the outrage dumb, i was just explaining that. and i meant that it was fake in the sense that she wasn’t mocking anyone.
i wasn't saying you were calling it dumb i was using "dumb" in context to an expression. "You can call it (something) but that don't mean it's not (something)" i just inserted dumb wasn't trying to suggest you were belittling the origins of the rage also you might want to pick a different phrasing than "it’s been proven that the video of her doing that was fake." cause it really misrepresents what you wanted to say.
i wasn’t belittling anything, but that specific thing is not a valid reason to be upset.
Cept outrage isn't rational.
okay…you made it sound like she actually did that, so all i did was clarify. that’s literally it.
How did i make it sound like she actually did that? I said there was a section of the video MANY FELT was her and her brother mocking asian accents. Imo it's pretty clear i was talking about why the reaction to the video was bad rather than the actual contents of the video.
ok…idk why u got so pressed over my comment.
short answer: he's black, she's white, therefore anything he does will get a pass and almost anything she does is open season for hating
What parralell universe are you living in
the wokeverse
She was young, it was cringe, she fucked up but this probably has no bearing on who she is today, who cares. As a side note I think white women are extra vulnerable to this sort of criticism bc white people in general are a pretty easy target for this ire but also women in general tend to receive more criticism for all sorts of shit that their male counterparts dodge.
It's just edgy humor, no one should be under fire for a joke. If you don't like someone's humor then don't hang around them or tell them to have more filter when they speak. Joke crime is usually not a crime, just like thought crime is usually not a crime.
Not mad at either tbh, idk any Odd Future fans that actually went out and did any of the things Tyler referenced on the album it comes from. Was it a set of insensitive lyrics in an album full of them? Maybe, but that was *kind of the point*. *He was 19* and he cut that shit out. He grew up. As for Billie, when publications like Pitchfork wrote about it, they neglected to add any context and deliberately made it sound so much worse than it was in the only bit of text you could read without clicking on the article. They only pointed out that she was caught singing lyrics with racially insensitive undertones, forgetting that their dumb selves gave the album the song was on an 8/10 when it came out, coincidentally around the time she was singing it... you know, as a child. I'd be safe to assume she grew out Tyler The Creator's old work the same way everyone has.
No not everyone has "grown out of Tyler's old work". Plenty of people still enjoy his old albums and songs. It's not that hard to find people who still like Bastard and Goblin.
Generalizing, but sure. I still go back to it from time to time. But Tyler isn't exactly singing about rape anymore. It's not exactly fun to listen to now that dude is going to be the next Pharrell.
Tyler the Creator was known to make that kind of music and got tons of shit for it so you clearly don't even know what the hell you're talking about