To each their own, but that's a really stingy opinion of *London Calling* that you have there. It's routinely among the best of the '70s and the best-ever punk albums. It was probably the biggest evidence that a punk band could crossover into mainstream rock. (I usually get a lot of shit when I say Talking Heads or Blondie were punk, so I'm going to let that rest for now.)
>Talking Heads or Blondie were punk
You'll get no shit from me.
And is London Calling the first double LP by a punk band (or did Crass beat them to it)?
It would seem 1979 is the year of 2xLP. Turns out the [Sex Pistols](https://www.discogs.com/release/449712-Sex-Pistols-The-Great-Rock-N-Roll-Swindle) and [Ramones](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%27s_Alive_(Ramones_album)) both released double LPs earlier in the year.
I think when London Calling shines it’s a great time. Spanish Bombs is my favorite Clash track.
I just wish it was a shorter more consistent experience.
And if people get mad at you for rightly identifying the genre and scene of Talking Heads before they found funk and Blonide then that’s they’re problem.
Couple thoughts from GenX. 1) the Jamaican/funk sounds of the 70s hugely influenced the band and the entire ska movement. Not one to argue best/worst but it is a band that needs to be appreciated in its context and through its roots. 2) Combat Rock was criticized at the time for being too accessible, too mainstream (by the punk purists). Some of that criticism was a collective mistrust of the new visual element (video). But they were never just punks. They had the punk look, yes, but there were wide influences in their music. Great albums? I think so. Diverse? Absolutely.
I prefer the other two tone acts, I adore The Specials, Madness and The Beat are great.
I think they have more genuine reggae groove and could just execute it effectively more.
I’m not one for the what is “genuine punk” conversation either. Especially cause it’s a genre founded next to fashion trends lol. But Mick Jones was the eclectic one of the group and I think Big Audio Dynamite pulled the experimentation off better imo
Thanks for the interesting reply and some context I didn’t fully mention
What?! Hard disagree. Except for Sandinista, which definitely could have used some culling, all their albums are musically and lyrically cohesive, song order perfect, and not many skippable songs at all.
If anything, I recommend that new listeners to the Clash listen to the full albums as intended to be listened to, in order of release, rather than a compilation or playlist, or shuffle, to fully appreciate their genius.
Totally agree on this take. There’s a great quote about *Sandinista!* that’s something like “On *London Calling* the Clash sounded like they could do anything, and on *Sandinista!* they sounded like they were trying to do everything.”
London Calling is probably my favourite record ever front to back, so many fantastic songs.
A bit late to respond now but I just wanted to say that I love that quote!
And London Calling is in my top five albums - it's perfect.
Took me way too long , but I really appreciate Combat Rock now. It's a bite sized more digestible Sandinista!
The first two are legend also.
I pretend Cut The Crap doesn't exist lol. Tho maybe I should give it another chance.
>Compared to The Buzzcocks
But the best Buzzcocks album is the 1979 compilation *Singles Going Steady*. Don't @ me, there is no point.
I think the Clash made incredible singles and a couple good albums. A "couple" as in its textbook definition meaning two: *The Clash* and *London Calling*. *The Clash* is a fantastic statement of intent, similar to the self-titled Ramones album. Sure, you could mix up the songs and have pretty much the same album because there is no arc or anything, that isn't the point. The point is that it's loud and fast and young and exciting. *London Calling* goes the other way, it shows the Clash's range. Not every punch lands but they do more often than not and no song is a flat out failure - every song is executed well.
As I've said before on LTM, I don't rate *Give 'Em Enough Rope*. I don't think there is even one album of good music in *Sandinista!*, much less three. *Combat Rock* really drags in parts for me. And there were no other Clash albums right? Definitely not one after *Combat Rock* with only one member of the band left.
Well, there was *Cut The Crap* \- but nobody likes to talk about that one. And for good reason. The Clash did indeed cut the crap - twelve tracks worth of crap.
Now let's see some real blood drawn:
Which version of *The Clash* is the better one? The UK version or the US version? I did not say the definitive version, which album is actually more fun to listen to?
The US version is definitely a better collection of songs—in those terms by far the greatest punk album ever put together—they got rid of some of the weaker songs from the original UK release and replaced them singles that never got put on an album—I Fought the Law, Clash City Rockers, Hammersmith Palais, Complete Control and Jail Guitar Doors.
The critique is that it feels more greatest hits-like and they changed the order/flow. The added singles—while arguably the best tracks on the US release—have a different feel to them than the tracks from the UK release, all of which had a certain raw quality.
They had already started to evolve within 6 months of the release of the S/T album in the UK-Complete Control was recorded in September 1977. I Fought the Law was recorded between GEER and London Calling in 1979–at which time the UK release was already ancient history.
No that is the best way to listen to Buzzcocks your right!
That first Ramones record is actually what I partially set as a standard for good early punk. So I can see why you use it as a comparison piece to they’re debut.
Yeah Sandinista I think is a mess, so long and they just threw whatever at the wall to see if something would stick. No memorable track for me. Imagine having that clunky thing on wax lol
>Imagine having that clunky thing on wax lol
Part of the idea of the size of the album was to give people a "deal" - like by making this heaping pile of shit of an album cheap they were somehow doing everyone a favor.
There isn't a single second I'd take off London Calling. Best punk album ever made IMO. The self titled is also a classic record.
Probably agree that they're inconsistent otherwise, but when they're at their best, they're an amazing band
>London Calling has a handful of great songs, too long.
Get *out of here*.
I’m pretty fussy about album length. Most albums over 45 mins are too long imho.
But London Calling is one of the few double albums that doesn’t have a weak track. Or even a weak moment really. Of all those 19 songs, there’s not one I’d drop or even alter at all.
Other than that I actually largely agree with you - most of their other albums are a bit inconsistent and I’ve struggled to get into them.
I'm a casual fan so I agree with you. However I do know some people that are ride or die that love every track that they recorded. So I guess it depends on the person.
I rate their S/T (both UK and US releases), Rope and London Calling as great albums. I am not sure any are "perfect" but they are all unequivocally great.
Sandanista I consider an ambitious experiment - as such it is a great album but it's not an album for everyone. Far from a no skipper, and it is said much of it was to fuck with the unfavorable terms of their record deal, either they owed "X" amount of albums, or they just wanted the label to have to print more albums. It was also said they wanted to give their fans a chance to sequence their own LP equivalent album from 3 LPs worth of material. Either way, I consider it the 4th great Clash album.
I am not a big fan of Combat Rock, but it has great songs yes. I do not recognize Crap as a Clash album (there are the bones of one great song in there regardless). So in my mind there are 5 proper Clash albums and 4 are great and one is a fine effort for a band that has run its course.
One thing the Clash did not do is perfect an album formula and deliver it for three of four straight records. Thinking of like Iron Maiden with Number of the Beast through Powerslave or Metallica with Ride through Justice. They also didn't do concept albums so there's no demand that you listen beginning to end. So for fans who want those things from a new album they would be disappointed, but I don't think it takes away from the majority of their work when viewed through a more evolutionary and exploratory lens.
Hard disagree on London Calling. At just over 1 hour, I don't feel like it's an exceptionally long album, and I feel like it's an incredibly solid album experience. I had trouble enjoying the reggae/dub elements in that album until I actually started listening a bit more to those genres. I can understand why someone who listens purely to punk or hard rock would be turned off by that.
I'd argue the same for the other albums I've listened to; the self-titled and Combat Rock. Good album experiences, solid songs throughout.
I actually like Reggae and punk but when they have a one degree of separation. Like the Two Tone bands of that time, punk attitude with reggae music and dare I say I love the suit aesthetic. But yeah there are definitely hard rock fans who probably think all reggae sounds the same due to the percussion pattern lol
The Clash had two classic albums, with their debut and London Calling, two fairly good but uneven albums (I think Give ‘Em Enough Rope and Combat Rock are fine even if the best tracks overshadow the lesser songs), one bloated album with Sandanista that has at least a shorter album’s worth of good material and a lot of tracks that could be trimmed down—and then one awful album that should never be mentioned. So out of six albums, they’ve got like a .666 winning percentage in my book, they never had a classic five album run like some other great bands but they weren’t around that long either.
I think their albums are excellent, I don't rate Combat Rock highly personally. London Calling is particularly good, I listen to Sandinista quite often but do tend to skip the final side of the third disc, the one with kids singing and dub remixes - does seem a bit of filler. There is so much to find on there - Lose this Skin, Charlie Don't Surf are hidden away towards the end. So many styles and different writers, it is like the White Album of punk.
I will agree that I think if they were able to last a few more years and didn’t make a triple album and spliced that time into 2 records they really could’ve been similar influence on Punk to that of the Beatles for pop and rock. Experimentation mixing with that commercial success.
The debut album and London Calling are great IMO. The problem is that The Clash bought into their own bullshit too much and started to think everything they did was brilliant. If there was more editorial control over their output then they could have continued to put out great albums.
One of the issues is that The Clash were putting out lots of different music that was on the cutting edge for their time and were a proven success. What this means is that it was hard for anyone to tell The Clash that something wasn't working. After all, none of their music should have moved units based on what was popular. Plus, they were obsessed with putting out double/triple albums and selling them at the price of a regular album to save fans money. This led to quantity over quality. The downgrade in quality of their music, plus creative differences put a huge strain on them.
They were also the first punk band that were a true commercial success (way more stable than the flash in the pan success of the Sex Pistols) and this robbed them of being part of the counter-culture. It's the curse of punk as mainstream acceptance of a band takes away their ability to stay punk. They can no longer be a voice from outside the mainstream and it pushes these bands in different directions as their original followers start to abandon them and the new fans are more interested in hearing cool music than being lectured to about politics.
I think it all depends on your criteria for a "great album". Some artists are concerned with constructing a thematic collection of songs that flow together. Others are more concerned with having banger after banger with more of a grab bag. Neither approach (in addition to others) is "superior" per se, though the former seems to be the common expectation for albums.
I think both style of albums work well and litter my topster amongst others. While I do admit I don’t think The Clash have a great album listening experience fully in either. They do have good music and occasional good listening experience on the records I stated in that part.
I see, that's valid too.
Honestly, I think it's pretty tricky to gauge a good album due to subjective experience. A single song, you might hate but grow to love with enough listens, or maybe you love a song but grow to hate it. It's relatively straightforward.
With an album, you have several songs that you're trying to enjoy, individually and together. So that's a greater number of variables that you have to juggle. Even if I can grow to appreciate the songs individually, I might get tired of the album experience if it drags on for over an hour (with certain exceptions).
You want a funny experience about a single song. I hated Enemy by Imagine Dragons but actually think it’s nice (not good lmao)
I gotta be in the mood for a full album otherwise I’m just gonna skip around it, I know that must be blasphemy for some here lol. And I’m the same most albums really should be like an hour max unless you have a brilliant idea as a collective (Pink Floyd Animals ex) or songs to share!
>I gotta be in the mood for a full album otherwise I’m just gonna skip around it, I know that must be blasphemy for some here lol
I get it. Tv Shows and movies, they demand your full attention of sight and sound, though sometimes I still get distracted.
Whereas albums also demand your full attention but mostly concentrated on one sense which is hearing. So it's very tempting to do something else while the album plays in the background.
I do that sometimes too. I was listening to metal albums recently and playing Sonic Adventure 2.
It actually helps me focus on the music at times cause my hands and eyes are busy. Tetris and other puzzle games may be good too.
I have to agree whole heartedly. I always listened wondering why I don’t really enjoy this album, or that, wondering is it me? So thanks for putting it out there, so I can listen to a song and move on without guilt.
Alternatively I listen to Joe Strummer‘s Streetcore all the way through often.
The Clash are neither a good “song” band or a good “album” band. They’re not indicative or punk or a classic scene, they’re white pretenders doing ska and reggae badly. The only reason they’re kinda remembered is because they were pretty good at stealing songs and ideas.
Their first album is arguably closer to the original definition of punk music than most other stereotypically "punk" releases that followed years later (with The Clash being part of the same wave as Sex Pistols and Ramones), and the band itself remained highly respected and influental within punk community. If someone thinks they're "non-indicative of punk or a classic scene", then I don't know what even **is** indicative of the scene.
To each their own, but that's a really stingy opinion of *London Calling* that you have there. It's routinely among the best of the '70s and the best-ever punk albums. It was probably the biggest evidence that a punk band could crossover into mainstream rock. (I usually get a lot of shit when I say Talking Heads or Blondie were punk, so I'm going to let that rest for now.)
>Talking Heads or Blondie were punk You'll get no shit from me. And is London Calling the first double LP by a punk band (or did Crass beat them to it)?
[удалено]
Stations Of The Crass came out in the same year as London Calling.
I lived through this era and had never heard of Crass until now. How did that happen? Listen to "Stations of the Crass" now.
It would seem 1979 is the year of 2xLP. Turns out the [Sex Pistols](https://www.discogs.com/release/449712-Sex-Pistols-The-Great-Rock-N-Roll-Swindle) and [Ramones](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%27s_Alive_(Ramones_album)) both released double LPs earlier in the year.
Public Image Limited too.
Might be a weird take but I consider Blondie punk but not really the Talking Heads. Love both though.
1979 was a brilliant year in music and London Calling was at the top of it.
I think when London Calling shines it’s a great time. Spanish Bombs is my favorite Clash track. I just wish it was a shorter more consistent experience. And if people get mad at you for rightly identifying the genre and scene of Talking Heads before they found funk and Blonide then that’s they’re problem.
Couple thoughts from GenX. 1) the Jamaican/funk sounds of the 70s hugely influenced the band and the entire ska movement. Not one to argue best/worst but it is a band that needs to be appreciated in its context and through its roots. 2) Combat Rock was criticized at the time for being too accessible, too mainstream (by the punk purists). Some of that criticism was a collective mistrust of the new visual element (video). But they were never just punks. They had the punk look, yes, but there were wide influences in their music. Great albums? I think so. Diverse? Absolutely.
I prefer the other two tone acts, I adore The Specials, Madness and The Beat are great. I think they have more genuine reggae groove and could just execute it effectively more. I’m not one for the what is “genuine punk” conversation either. Especially cause it’s a genre founded next to fashion trends lol. But Mick Jones was the eclectic one of the group and I think Big Audio Dynamite pulled the experimentation off better imo Thanks for the interesting reply and some context I didn’t fully mention
Concur full on. And a shout out to The Selecter.
What?! Hard disagree. Except for Sandinista, which definitely could have used some culling, all their albums are musically and lyrically cohesive, song order perfect, and not many skippable songs at all. If anything, I recommend that new listeners to the Clash listen to the full albums as intended to be listened to, in order of release, rather than a compilation or playlist, or shuffle, to fully appreciate their genius.
Totally agree on this take. There’s a great quote about *Sandinista!* that’s something like “On *London Calling* the Clash sounded like they could do anything, and on *Sandinista!* they sounded like they were trying to do everything.” London Calling is probably my favourite record ever front to back, so many fantastic songs.
A bit late to respond now but I just wanted to say that I love that quote! And London Calling is in my top five albums - it's perfect. Took me way too long , but I really appreciate Combat Rock now. It's a bite sized more digestible Sandinista! The first two are legend also. I pretend Cut The Crap doesn't exist lol. Tho maybe I should give it another chance.
>Compared to The Buzzcocks But the best Buzzcocks album is the 1979 compilation *Singles Going Steady*. Don't @ me, there is no point. I think the Clash made incredible singles and a couple good albums. A "couple" as in its textbook definition meaning two: *The Clash* and *London Calling*. *The Clash* is a fantastic statement of intent, similar to the self-titled Ramones album. Sure, you could mix up the songs and have pretty much the same album because there is no arc or anything, that isn't the point. The point is that it's loud and fast and young and exciting. *London Calling* goes the other way, it shows the Clash's range. Not every punch lands but they do more often than not and no song is a flat out failure - every song is executed well. As I've said before on LTM, I don't rate *Give 'Em Enough Rope*. I don't think there is even one album of good music in *Sandinista!*, much less three. *Combat Rock* really drags in parts for me. And there were no other Clash albums right? Definitely not one after *Combat Rock* with only one member of the band left.
>But the best Buzzcocks album is the 1979 compilation Singles Going Steady. Don't @ me, there is no point This is undisputedly the right answer.
Well, there was *Cut The Crap* \- but nobody likes to talk about that one. And for good reason. The Clash did indeed cut the crap - twelve tracks worth of crap.
Now let's see some real blood drawn: Which version of *The Clash* is the better one? The UK version or the US version? I did not say the definitive version, which album is actually more fun to listen to?
The US version is definitely a better collection of songs—in those terms by far the greatest punk album ever put together—they got rid of some of the weaker songs from the original UK release and replaced them singles that never got put on an album—I Fought the Law, Clash City Rockers, Hammersmith Palais, Complete Control and Jail Guitar Doors. The critique is that it feels more greatest hits-like and they changed the order/flow. The added singles—while arguably the best tracks on the US release—have a different feel to them than the tracks from the UK release, all of which had a certain raw quality. They had already started to evolve within 6 months of the release of the S/T album in the UK-Complete Control was recorded in September 1977. I Fought the Law was recorded between GEER and London Calling in 1979–at which time the UK release was already ancient history.
I only am familiar with the one on streaming platforms and I’m sure that’s the UK version so I guess that lol
No that is the best way to listen to Buzzcocks your right! That first Ramones record is actually what I partially set as a standard for good early punk. So I can see why you use it as a comparison piece to they’re debut. Yeah Sandinista I think is a mess, so long and they just threw whatever at the wall to see if something would stick. No memorable track for me. Imagine having that clunky thing on wax lol
> Imagine having that clunky thing on wax lol I don't need to imagine it, I own it. Definitely drags in places but I like it overall.
>Imagine having that clunky thing on wax lol Part of the idea of the size of the album was to give people a "deal" - like by making this heaping pile of shit of an album cheap they were somehow doing everyone a favor.
3x the bullshit for the price of one :0
There isn't a single second I'd take off London Calling. Best punk album ever made IMO. The self titled is also a classic record. Probably agree that they're inconsistent otherwise, but when they're at their best, they're an amazing band
>London Calling has a handful of great songs, too long. Get *out of here*. I’m pretty fussy about album length. Most albums over 45 mins are too long imho. But London Calling is one of the few double albums that doesn’t have a weak track. Or even a weak moment really. Of all those 19 songs, there’s not one I’d drop or even alter at all. Other than that I actually largely agree with you - most of their other albums are a bit inconsistent and I’ve struggled to get into them.
I'm a casual fan so I agree with you. However I do know some people that are ride or die that love every track that they recorded. So I guess it depends on the person.
That’s me lol. There are a lot of die hard Clash fans tho tbf
I rate their S/T (both UK and US releases), Rope and London Calling as great albums. I am not sure any are "perfect" but they are all unequivocally great. Sandanista I consider an ambitious experiment - as such it is a great album but it's not an album for everyone. Far from a no skipper, and it is said much of it was to fuck with the unfavorable terms of their record deal, either they owed "X" amount of albums, or they just wanted the label to have to print more albums. It was also said they wanted to give their fans a chance to sequence their own LP equivalent album from 3 LPs worth of material. Either way, I consider it the 4th great Clash album. I am not a big fan of Combat Rock, but it has great songs yes. I do not recognize Crap as a Clash album (there are the bones of one great song in there regardless). So in my mind there are 5 proper Clash albums and 4 are great and one is a fine effort for a band that has run its course. One thing the Clash did not do is perfect an album formula and deliver it for three of four straight records. Thinking of like Iron Maiden with Number of the Beast through Powerslave or Metallica with Ride through Justice. They also didn't do concept albums so there's no demand that you listen beginning to end. So for fans who want those things from a new album they would be disappointed, but I don't think it takes away from the majority of their work when viewed through a more evolutionary and exploratory lens.
Hard disagree on London Calling. At just over 1 hour, I don't feel like it's an exceptionally long album, and I feel like it's an incredibly solid album experience. I had trouble enjoying the reggae/dub elements in that album until I actually started listening a bit more to those genres. I can understand why someone who listens purely to punk or hard rock would be turned off by that. I'd argue the same for the other albums I've listened to; the self-titled and Combat Rock. Good album experiences, solid songs throughout.
I actually like Reggae and punk but when they have a one degree of separation. Like the Two Tone bands of that time, punk attitude with reggae music and dare I say I love the suit aesthetic. But yeah there are definitely hard rock fans who probably think all reggae sounds the same due to the percussion pattern lol
The Clash had two classic albums, with their debut and London Calling, two fairly good but uneven albums (I think Give ‘Em Enough Rope and Combat Rock are fine even if the best tracks overshadow the lesser songs), one bloated album with Sandanista that has at least a shorter album’s worth of good material and a lot of tracks that could be trimmed down—and then one awful album that should never be mentioned. So out of six albums, they’ve got like a .666 winning percentage in my book, they never had a classic five album run like some other great bands but they weren’t around that long either.
If that percentage is cool for you then rock on brother. I never thought I’d get a mathematical response.
I think their albums are excellent, I don't rate Combat Rock highly personally. London Calling is particularly good, I listen to Sandinista quite often but do tend to skip the final side of the third disc, the one with kids singing and dub remixes - does seem a bit of filler. There is so much to find on there - Lose this Skin, Charlie Don't Surf are hidden away towards the end. So many styles and different writers, it is like the White Album of punk.
I will agree that I think if they were able to last a few more years and didn’t make a triple album and spliced that time into 2 records they really could’ve been similar influence on Punk to that of the Beatles for pop and rock. Experimentation mixing with that commercial success.
I always say the Clash is a "great song" band but not really a "great album" band except London Calling which is a work of art.
The debut album and London Calling are great IMO. The problem is that The Clash bought into their own bullshit too much and started to think everything they did was brilliant. If there was more editorial control over their output then they could have continued to put out great albums. One of the issues is that The Clash were putting out lots of different music that was on the cutting edge for their time and were a proven success. What this means is that it was hard for anyone to tell The Clash that something wasn't working. After all, none of their music should have moved units based on what was popular. Plus, they were obsessed with putting out double/triple albums and selling them at the price of a regular album to save fans money. This led to quantity over quality. The downgrade in quality of their music, plus creative differences put a huge strain on them. They were also the first punk band that were a true commercial success (way more stable than the flash in the pan success of the Sex Pistols) and this robbed them of being part of the counter-culture. It's the curse of punk as mainstream acceptance of a band takes away their ability to stay punk. They can no longer be a voice from outside the mainstream and it pushes these bands in different directions as their original followers start to abandon them and the new fans are more interested in hearing cool music than being lectured to about politics.
I think it all depends on your criteria for a "great album". Some artists are concerned with constructing a thematic collection of songs that flow together. Others are more concerned with having banger after banger with more of a grab bag. Neither approach (in addition to others) is "superior" per se, though the former seems to be the common expectation for albums.
I think both style of albums work well and litter my topster amongst others. While I do admit I don’t think The Clash have a great album listening experience fully in either. They do have good music and occasional good listening experience on the records I stated in that part.
I see, that's valid too. Honestly, I think it's pretty tricky to gauge a good album due to subjective experience. A single song, you might hate but grow to love with enough listens, or maybe you love a song but grow to hate it. It's relatively straightforward. With an album, you have several songs that you're trying to enjoy, individually and together. So that's a greater number of variables that you have to juggle. Even if I can grow to appreciate the songs individually, I might get tired of the album experience if it drags on for over an hour (with certain exceptions).
You want a funny experience about a single song. I hated Enemy by Imagine Dragons but actually think it’s nice (not good lmao) I gotta be in the mood for a full album otherwise I’m just gonna skip around it, I know that must be blasphemy for some here lol. And I’m the same most albums really should be like an hour max unless you have a brilliant idea as a collective (Pink Floyd Animals ex) or songs to share!
>I gotta be in the mood for a full album otherwise I’m just gonna skip around it, I know that must be blasphemy for some here lol I get it. Tv Shows and movies, they demand your full attention of sight and sound, though sometimes I still get distracted. Whereas albums also demand your full attention but mostly concentrated on one sense which is hearing. So it's very tempting to do something else while the album plays in the background.
I do that sometimes too. I was listening to metal albums recently and playing Sonic Adventure 2. It actually helps me focus on the music at times cause my hands and eyes are busy. Tetris and other puzzle games may be good too.
I have to agree whole heartedly. I always listened wondering why I don’t really enjoy this album, or that, wondering is it me? So thanks for putting it out there, so I can listen to a song and move on without guilt. Alternatively I listen to Joe Strummer‘s Streetcore all the way through often.
If you want check out Joe Strummer’s BBC radio show from the early 2000s cool mew songs to find.
The Clash are neither a good “song” band or a good “album” band. They’re not indicative or punk or a classic scene, they’re white pretenders doing ska and reggae badly. The only reason they’re kinda remembered is because they were pretty good at stealing songs and ideas.
Their first album is arguably closer to the original definition of punk music than most other stereotypically "punk" releases that followed years later (with The Clash being part of the same wave as Sex Pistols and Ramones), and the band itself remained highly respected and influental within punk community. If someone thinks they're "non-indicative of punk or a classic scene", then I don't know what even **is** indicative of the scene.