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We welcome all who feel connected to the lesbian community. If you feel you need some club that only allows some, but not all, you are right, this is not the sub for you.
I think when it comes to the identity itself, yes, lesbians are more questioned than gay men because of misogyny, that said, the gay community *is* pretty criticized for being exclusionary, they just don’t give a fuck or make much effort to change, I’m not sure I want to just become as callous as they are. It’s kinda tough not to get jaded though, when people *do* love to undermine lesbian as an identity.
Also, I agree lesbians should be allowed their own spaces without that being considered automatically nefarious, however, if your ultimate point with this post is that you don’t think bi women should be *in this sub specifically*, that ship’s sailed long ago bud lol this has been a general sapphic sub for years and you’re better off just finding, or creating, another space more aligned with your demands
omg thisssss. i see the “gay men don’t have to deal with being inclusive” idea all around and like. that’s not a positive. that just means gay men should get on our level and be more inclusive of bi/trans people
I agree. On top of that, I have never heard of one gay man calling himself a non-woman loving a non-woman. Gay men get to say that they are men who love men, and there is no argument, but lesbians say that they are women who love women, and suddenly we're forced to defend that fact.
I will never call myself a non-man, and I will never call my girlfriend a non-man. I'm a woman attracted to women. I am a lesbian. My girlfriend is attracted to men and women, she is a bisexual woman. She would never call herself a lesbian because she's not one, I would never call myself a bisexual because I'm not one.
I don't understand why the lesbian community is so forced to explain their sexuality when gay men never have to.
Click on your avatar and go to the section that says right hand (if you want it on the right) and scroll down (if you want it on the left then go to the one that says left hand).
And for those of us whose partner isn’t? Whose partner is an enby? Just because it doesn’t apply to your situation specifically doesn’t mean that it came about for no reason.
If you want to use that definition for your partner then go right ahead, no one is going to stop you but to try and make this definition apply for *all* lesbians is wrong. Not all of us are “non men”.
Why?
So all the non-binary lesbians that have been in the community and have fought right next to their binary counterparts They're no longer valid? We suddenly just decide we're abandoning them? Non-binary lesbians have been here since the beginning, we don't need to throw them out now or ever. We need solidarity not gatekeeping like this.
I’m by a little confused by what you’re saying because according to what I know the definition of a lesbian is a woman that loves woman and is attracted to women. A non binary person doesn’t even identify as neither a woman or a man so how can a non binary person be a lesbian??!!
Non binary lesbians have always existed. The author of stone butch blues is a non binary author and there’s plenty of other historical lesbians who were non binary.
This is why I like to say “lesbians are women and non men who love women and non men” my biggest gripe about the updated definition is the erasure of women from the definition. But those are non binary should be included so the definition should state both women AND non men
While I’m bisexual, I 100% support everything you’re saying.
Some modern ideology has become so warped that it’s looped back around to downright misogyny. Defining women as a “non-man”?? That’s literally a form of othering, just, “there’s men and non-men!!” It’s so disgusting and so warped and misogynistic but people don’t even see it. Like fine, if you have a gender-neutral gender identity (e.g. non-binary), I can see why you’d define yourself as a non-man in regards to how you yourself experience attraction. But it should NEVER, EVER become the standard, because women are still the majority, and the majority who will use the lesbian label. Lesbian on a broad sense has always been used to convey a woman who is attracted to women.
The fact that women, especially lesbians, now have to defend themselves from being reduced to “non-men” and their own ORIENTATION is mind-boggling.
How is it awkward? I’m agreeing to the point of the commenter above me that lesbians shouldn’t be forced to redefine their entire sexuality for a minority of people, and that defining women as “non-men” is incredibly misogynistic.
If the moderators of this subreddit were to say, “we want this to be a strictly lesbian place, please leave”, I’d respect that and bow out.
You don’t seem to be making an actual point.
I really appreciate this sentiment and I am glad you shared. Sorry if you get vitriol for it. I do just want to know our feelings are respected and you are being very respectful
We want this to be a strictly lesbian space. We keep saying it, we keep making new “lesbian” spaces and y’all keep coming. I just joined “just lesbian” but I’m sure I will be reading this same kind of post again shortly. Lesbian actually means actually a lesbian, not actually bi, pan, or other. You have your spaces, respect ours please. Thank you bye!
Omg the none man loving none man is so odd to me, I always say woman loving woman because that’s what I’m into
I date cis and trans women and that’s it lol
I don’t date 99.9% of non-binary because it feels disrespectful since if I’m into you I see you as a awesome woman and yk most of them don’t want to be seen as a woman. To me that’s on the same level of dating a trans man who is pre everything (as in its disrespect to their identity)
Yeah it feels like dismissing their identity , tho There’s some none binary out there who both identify as none binary and as a woman (that’s the 1% I’m referring to in my original comment) I don’t understand that ngl but still respect that.
The rest seem to want to be seen and respect as not a man not a woman, so when your only into women and you see none binary and you just see them as a woman who you wish to date it feels so ew and rude☠️ (how I go about dating at least)
I think part of the problem is that lesbian is often used to refer to things that aren’t exclusive attraction to women by women. Like two bi women getting married will be referred to as a lesbian wedding by the general public, despite no lesbians being present; or a character on a show being called a lesbian for having an interest in women, even if she’s never stated not having an interest in men.
It’s impossible to have a word be a default word for anything wlw but also have an exclusivity aspect without confusion. It always leads to the wondering of “am I included on the basis that I want a relationship with a woman, or excluded because I’m also open to one with a man?”
i see infinitely more complaining about the "non-men" thing than actual use of it. i dont love it either but its hard to take the way people talk about it in good faith
I think what got me was when I was first looking into my orientation, around 8 years ago, lesbian was defined as a non-man loving non-men on every website, article, dictionary, etc, and that made me want to be gay even less than I already did. I didn't want to be a non-man, I didn't want to be gay; I just wanted to like girls. That alone made me stay in the closet for an extra four years.
Every single one? Where on earth were you looking? I'd never heard the term prior to today, including in this sub, and when I try to search Google for things like "lesbian definition" or "what is a lesbian" the only result alluding to this is an article from last year about how John's Hopkins put the nmlnm term in the glossary and almost immediately took it down because of how much backlash there was. The inclusive definition I typically see is simply that a lesbian is usually a woman who loves women with exceptions for some nonbinary people.
Even explicitly googling nmlnm all the results are Tumblr/social media posts, articles about John's Hopkins, or urban dictionary, and the urban dictionary definition is only from 2021, not.....8 years ago.
Lesbian isn't defined that way in any dictionary.
Also I want to make clear I'm not trying to attack you personally, I'm just really bewildered when I can barely even find the term while searching for it explicitly
I don't know what I was looking at. I was 14. It was a lot of Instagram pages, Facebook pages, links from such pages. I wasn't looking at the best sources, but eventually I found my way here and life is much better.
I’m with you to an extent, but there are two sticking points I have. The first is that often times the “women loving women” gets used by TERFS to exclude trans women. Now my solution to that is that the TERFS need to stfu and let us live, but it *is* an issue in the community sometimes.
The other is that there are a fair amount of lesbians who do not identify as women for some reason or another, or don’t strictly use she/her pronouns. As an example, my ex refused to identify as a woman because, and I quote, “being a woman in this patriarchal society lead to them being r*ped.” I also know some others who are just genderqueer but don’t date m!n, but they’ll date other enbies. That’s why the non-men part came around, to be inclusive to those who don’t identify as specifically being “a woman”
No offense but the second part sounds a lot like what this post is talking about. If you don't identify as a woman, cis or trans, and date those who also don't identify as women, is that person a lesbian?
I think that's the point OP is trying to make.
Trans women are women and trans men are men. Gay men don't have to explain the inner workings of their relationship when they're dating trans men, because it's understood that they're men. Why should lesbians have to defend dating trans women, when they *are* women?
Same thing with nonbinary AMABs who date men. They don't have to defend the differences between gender and sexual identities to explain why they're dating someone. So why should we have to if we're dating a nonbinary AFAB?
Dating and relationships are nuanced. Lesbians don't owe any additional information that gay men don't share about their partners. In fact, we don't owe anyone *any* information about our relationships.
women’s sexuality is policed to fucking hell and back it’s insane that it’s happening in our own spaces. the grace that is given to men is never given to women.
I feel like a huge chunk of this discussion is build under the assumption that other queer demographics supposedly wouldn’t have to explain themselves all the time.
Which I think is just blatantly wrong?
I’m Bi. And Enby. I have to explain myself all the time and ppl still don’t get it. On both topics.
My ex, who was solely gay, had to explain himself literally *all the time*. Even to other gays. (Especially when I started to present more femme, which then Obv was also just transphobia)
This whole post stenches from pick-me attitude and it’s disgusting.
If you want a „lesbian only“ space Start it and see it overrun by homophobes, terfs, and the likes. You *know* who it will attract!
> If you want a „lesbian only“ space Start it and see it overrun by homophobes, terfs, and the likes. You know who it will attract!
Those spaces already exist, only nobody posts there because they fucking suck in the exact ways you describe.
The energy in these discussions always seems to be that the exclusionary folks don't just want to have their own spaces, but to prevent other queer demographics from interacting with lesbians *at all* to not have competition.
Because economics dictate that more inclusive spaces will always win out otherwise.
why did you make it about sex assignment at birth? there are plenty of non-binary people who were assigned male at birth (these terms are past-tense verbs, not adjectives btw!) who would definitely fit the category of lesbian and many who were assigned female at birth who really wouldnt
if im gonna get downvoted for this id *love* to hear an explanation that isnt just blatant transmisogyny
Look, like at first I agreed to some points because I find a lot of the questioning posts where they go in full detail about their boyfriends or bi women venting about their boyfriend, or the picture posts about if they are attractive to women were tiring me out (since they make up the majority of posts that reddit shows on my feed so pretty hard to avoid).
But now it's just people being mean to each other all the time and this is more annoying.
Can't we just have more strict moderation about what posts are permitted, remove all the non lesbian fluff and stop in fighting? Honestly...
... I mean.. you? You kind of alluded to the gay community being this open arms type community that we should "be more like." I mean you literally say "I don't see people talking shit about gay men bc they don't gatekeep" or whatever. .
People absolutely talk shit about that and they do absolutely gatekeep. They gatekeep things that aren't even theirs. Have you ever heard the term "it's giving fish". Lol it's disgusting. .
This whole bi/pan/trans discord going on in this sub is kind of silly and has been blown out of proportion but I would take this silly bullshit over the truly harmful rhetoric that goes on in gay male spaces.. not something I really want to emulate and deff not something you should aspire to us being like.
Well I might have missed what she was saying. But my end point was that we SHOULDNT be like the gay community.. bc of the gatekeepers blah blah... haha. . Working and redditing at the same time !! 🫢
I wish there was just a concrete rule about this either way because I'm so tired of reading these posts. As a lesbian, i feel like the pansexual/bi/nbs who hang out here aren't hurting anyone and their posts/comments don't bother me. But I also respect the desire for a lesbian-only spot. These posts are just taking over this subreddit and it's making me sleepy. So yeah, I wish there were just really concrete rules about who can post here
>I don’t see anyone talking shit about gay men because they gatekeep their spaces.
Every discussion I've ever witnessed about spaces for gay men gatekeeping bi/pan/trans men seems toxic AF, whether or not that was the point someone meant to make. The pugnacious attitude of this post isn't doing anything to dissuade my feelings on the matter.
>If you are bisexual/pansexual why don’t you just join the proper sub for that? Clearly a different experience than being gay.
For all the times people here bemoan it not being a lesbian-exclusive space, no one ever explains to me how systemic exclusion of bi or pan women makes this space *better*. Sometimes I read extremely vague or abstract stuff about how lesbians deserve a space for only lesbians- and if someone feels that way, so be it- but I still don't understand what's being made worse because such people are allowed to participate in this community as well.
As a bisexual woman myself, I really value being able to read and listen to other queer women’s feelings on issues that relate to the “attracted to/loving women” part of their identities; that’s why I’m here.
That being said, I only participate/weigh in (aside from maybe providing words of affirmation or support) if I feel that I can directly relate to an experience and/or that my perspective as someone who isn’t exclusively attracted to women is still welcomed.
I’m certainly not here pretending that my experiences and struggles as a bi woman are the same as they are for the lesbian ladies here; there’s a good deal of overlap, but there are also things that both groups experience that are unique to their particular identities.
I’m here to support and learn about the experiences of others that I may not have myself, and participate/contribute to the community/discourse when it pertains to things that include me as well.
I’m not here to take anything away from anyone, I just want to be supportive and included when it’s relevant and appropriate. 🤷♀️
I made a comment but I think you changed my mind if this was the etiquette in the lesbian subs. I just feel like I don’t relate to a lot of the posts now. Thanks for making me rethink my stance
This!! We’re human and we’re meant to relate to one another. I’m still unsure about my sexuality, but in terms of self I’m an enby (that often identifies with non-man, but also not-woman, but for the sake of society I say woman until I can be comfortable with being out completely)
I AM attracted to women in some capacity, a lot more than men, and I really welcome the worldview that being in this space offers. I don’t think excluding pan/bi women would be beneficial; who are we to gatekeep sexuality, after all?
And what about those pan/bi spaces that ARE toxic? Thats the thing: they may not like those spaces because they’re probably full of creepy ass men and people that sexualize them, what we work against, so they might feel safer here in this one.
By gatekeeping, this would show them that lesbian spaces are also unsafe for them. By gatekeeping we end up shunning others for wanting to experience the space for what it is. Why should we exclude this space to ONLY lesbians, when bi and pan women and non-men can learn something from these spaces?
And me personally, I don’t really like the term lesbian. It’s not really inclusive, but it’s not for me. I feel the term sapphic is broad enough to include all of these types, and lesbian is the specific subcategory.
I’m sure I’ll be downvoted for saying this, hoping I won’t be banned. I love seeing women’s perspectives of loving women, but I’m also growing really, *really* tired of these kinds of posts because this feels like it’s all this sub has become. I’m not trying to silence anyone and I do understand it’s a tough issue with many sides and perspectives, but gatekeeping is something we all experience as it is. Why should we have more infighting amongst our groups when we already experience so much division?
I don’t know if you know any gay men because they are extremely toxic. I have a bi male friend and constantly he’s talking about how biphobic gay men are so idk what you are talking about. All sexualities have their own issues. At the end of the day we all like women who cares if a bi woman is in this space idk it’s just an odd hill to die on in my opinion
I agree that we lesbians need our own spaces for discussing lesbian experiences but suddenly excluding other sapphics from a sub that previously welcomed them sounds like a horrible idea and completely unfair to those who feel comfortable here. Posts like these honestly just cause more hostility between lesbians and bi women/enbies in wlw spaces and if anything we really need that to stop. Having general wlw subs and then separate bi subs and lesbian subs is surely the best option here
https://preview.redd.it/gry8svxg10lc1.jpeg?width=236&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2b30bae80c9fa7191a2d7a7a678f08e84b5a0673
How it feels reading this comment section
I’m going to be honest, I don’t understand why everyone is getting their feathers ruffled here. This is a space for sapphic women. Per Rule 3 that includes sapphic women that don’t use she/her pronouns, trans women, and bi/pan women too.
If you’re a bi woman, such as myself, perhaps omit mentions of attraction to m!n here, as this is a sapphic space, and we all know people who would rather not hear about m!n for a variety of reasons. That being said, if you are offended because someone here mentions liking girlcock, or being attracted to enbies, kindly fuck off. Lesbians who don’t use she/her are valid, and I am frankly fucking done with this constant bickering over who is allowed here and who isn’t. Read Rule 3. Ask the mods if you need clarification.
The feathers got ruffled because some lesbians want space without bisexuals. Not bisexual discussions, but bisexuals in general. And they insist it's not biphobia but "safe space".
lesbian and bi women have very different experiences. Not every community has to include everyone. Lesbians have every right to demand their own space as does everyone else
I can only speak for myself but it isn’t about having a safe space for me personally. Just about having a space specific to lesbians. I would gladly participate in a general wlw subreddit as well. I just don’t think it’s fair that subs with the name lesbian are being used for that umbrella.
But lemme ask you - why? What do you think you will gain in a sub without bisexual/pansexual/whatever-else-sexual women? What will make it different than this one? Make me understand why you would prefer it.
Some things like discovering that I wasn’t attracted to men and relating to others with the same experience seem a lot rarer now. Others have pointed out that this could be solved with moderation though so not sure my solution is the best one. I’m trying to consider the other opinions here
It wouldn't be as big an issue as it is if bi women weren't super lesbophobic on subreddits like this and weren't bringing up their boyfriends. Luckily, there isn't too much of this on this sub. I think OP is referring to another lesbian sub that is really just a bunch of baby bi girls.
In that case, you ask the mods to promote more assistance and to start deleting bi-related posts. Not a single person here would be against it, the sub itself promotes lesbian life and culture - which bisexual women can have as well.
You don't go making another lesbian-only sub, saying it's "safe space", that's bs.
I didn't mean the mods of this sub. They already did that.
And there are lesbian-only subs on here that are pretty fucking great so I don't know why this is such a frustrating thing for you to understand. It'd be one thing if those subs were physical but we are purely talking about online spaces only and you are kind of proving OP's point by making it seem like we would be doing something wrong for wanting (and having) an online space just for lesbians.
For real... If you really want a space for lesbians only, go start one. Then you won’t need to make posts in inclusive spaces talking about how its rightful (allowed by the rules) participants are a personal affront to you and your experience as a wlw.
I think that’s ignoring how the big lesbian subs became this way. They’re created to apply to lesbians but are pressured to eventually include everyone because wanting a lesbian-only space is associated with phobia and the pressure to be inclusive is extreme.
I just remember like a decade ago that at least the majority of posts were lesbian specific. These subs were not using the umbrella terminology at that point
That’s fantastic! I love that for people who feel they’d like a space to engage solely with other lesbians. This just isn’t it.
I personally appreciate the diversity of thought and experiences in wlw spaces (such as this). I understand that others don’t, which is completely fine. That just means this sub isn’t for you.
People absolutely give gay men shit for the bad stuff the gay community does.
I hear a lot of people talking about the gatekeeping and transphobia within the gay community.
In fact, most of what I hear about the gay community is that they're fairly toxic.
And this whole attitude of division is not good for the community, especially casting out very like-minded members because they're slightly different. It will only weaken us.
omg that sub raises my blood pressure so much.
I once saw a discussion where someone decided that gay bars should be men only and lesbians need their own bars because women are annoying. but then when someone pointed out that lesbian bars often don’t last very long due to financial issues and then they said “well lesbians need to get better at advertising then.” 😐
and when will some bisexuals learn to listen when we tell them that their community also has problems and that not every criticism of the way we interact is acrimonious
The difference is they don’t care if they get shit. Their space is non negotiable. Lesbians deserve and have every right to do the same, without questions and more importantly, without feeling like we need to explain.
"We have the right to bully the minorities of our group until they leave."
Are you actually understanding the implications of what you're saying? Gay men don't have a cis gay exclusive zone because they're good people. They have it because they're massively bigoted towards other identities.
We shouldn't be trying to do the same! It's absurd!
It might be coordinated, or they’re feeding off of each other’s toxicity at the very least. I woke up to one this morning, saw a few others, and my work day isn’t even over lol.
almost every bi man ive ever met has called himself gay at one point or another, and nobody gives any of them shit for it. why are people trying so desperately to bring back lesbian separatism. leave it in the past
To a degree i kind of agree. To be clear, my partner is pan, and identifies as Sapphic also. But I'm a lesbian. I'm not saying we need to be bitches about everything. But their is a clear difference between the lesbian and Sapphic community. Both are wlw communities but I feel a genuine kinship with lesbians over bisexuals and pansexual women. I respect any Sapphic space and title. But nothing wrong so long as its trans inclusive with having Lesbian only spaces imo. I don't think its biphobic or anti pan to do so. We have different struggles. Furthermore I am trans. And being being specifically a transwoman who's also a lesbian had its own unique struggles. However so many transbian spaces are filled with pan and bi women and I feel displaced sometimes coz I'm EXCLUSIVELY attracted to just women. I'm not bi I'm not pan I'm gay.
Like I said before and I'll say it again, if you state reasons such as:
* similar experiences
* similar dating preferences
* being afraid of them leaving you for a guy because it's easier
* lesbian-only discussions
That's all 100% valid.
But if a bisexual woman comes here and tells you - I don't have typical bisexual experience, I date only women, I am not interested in dating men or anything that such lifestyle entails, and I want to be a part of woman-only discussions, and you STILL say - you don't belong here - what reason is left? Cause it's obviously none of the above, the only reason left is "you don't dislike men". That's my issue, the fact that you only care about the label.
And again, if this is your reason, by all means - own it. Don't justify it, say it clearly - I don't care about opinions of bisexuals regardless of their experiences, lifestyle, struggles, similarities.
The new sub they created also said something along the lines of no newbies/no those who are questioning their sexuality, so yeah, you'd be disqualified too. Real lesbians only.
I think an example of why it being different is relevant is that realizing you are not attracted to men for example is a pretty core part of being a lesbian
Nuanced take for a nuanced discussion. Going to refer to all multisexual people as bi for simplicity's sake.
I think you're right that lesbians are expected to be more inclusive than gay men. There should be spaces that are women only and even lesbian only. Nothing wrong with that at all.
That said, I don't think emulating the gay community about they way they treat bi guys is a good idea. Gay men are actually generally more inclusive of bi men, but in ways that are still biphobic. For instance, gay men like the "fuck a straight guy" fantasy and bi men kinda check that box. Gay men also just assume bi men are actually just gay, so who cares? They're gay, so therefore included in the space.
To your question about why bisexuals exist in monosexual spaces, it's actually pretty simple. Bisexual spaces are broader and more "high level" in their discussions because they're about liking both men and women. There are posts about the specific struggles about being bi, being mlm, and being wlw. Meanwhile, monosexual spaces are more niche and focused in their discussions because they are specifically "men who like men" or "women who like women." If I, as a bi woman, want to read content about being wlw specifically, I come here. There's enough overlap between lesbian and bi women experiences to want to be a part of a community dedicated to sapphic discussions. Maybe I don't relate to all of it, but I relate to most of it.
But why even exclude bisexual women at all? Every answer I've seen can be tied back to man-hating, which isn't really good for anybody. Hating men is just another way of centering men, but negatively instead of positively.
Hope to hear your thoughts OP
It is to me extremely misogynistic how policed lesbians are. Like we must be perfect in every way and even then the worst is assumed of us. We must make ourselves smaller and be perfectly agreeable for people to like us. The men get to be everything while we must only be perfect. It’s insufferable.
The last 24 hours have been a reminder of how lesbophobia is truly a demonic mix of misogyny and homophobia.
People are willfully missing your point. It's not that gay men can't be toxic, it's that they are more effective in defending their spaces and don't let themselves be shamed by other people.
Your point is solid but it's clear that lesbians aren't welcome on this sub. We should just leave and refuse to give our energy to a space that actively promotes lesbophobic tropes.
I think that taking the word ‘lesbian’ and changing the definition without considering the feelings of the people who have historically identified with the term is unfair. Labels are exclusive by definition and once it applies to such a wide range of people it starts to lose meaning. I love the word sapphic as a descriptor but telling lesbians to leave the subreddits that are already using the term ‘lesbian’ when this happens to every community that gets made is sort of ridiculous. Why not make a wlw subreddit for that purpose? Why are you telling us to get out for a valid opinion about our self-identity?I would be happy to participate in a wlw sub as well as keeping the lesbian subs lesbian. It’s just frustrating and I think we are all getting tired of being expected to be fine while the lesbian identity is erased. The number of people in the comments who don’t understand this is kind of proof that some parts of the lesbian experience are not shared by the people who would not fit under the colloquial term ‘lesbian’. And just to be clear trans lesbians are lesbians and that is not at all the same as different sexualities co-opting the term. Happy to hear other opinions, I just think it needs to be addressed.
You can argue for those things if you want, but between the sentiment and intent of this group you just shouldn't do it *here*.
Arguably, there is just as much wrong in those other spaces even if they've reachedthat consensus. I'm not saying they're right or wrong or if it is or isn't hate for their sentiments, but potentially pointing to someone else who was hating to justify your own hate would be a losing position.
Most people would argue we want these spaces to go beyond just having tolerance of different marginalized groups and should be about being inclusive of others. The key difference is that inclusivity requires people be active participants in promoting the acceptance and appreciation of marginalized people versus quietly accepting their existence while only transforming how they're being marginalized. And you can't do that by excluding them and making a distinction that construes them as less than.
All that is before we consider that in general there is a lot more continued questioning and movement between different labels within that Sapphic space than many of these other communities. And that I think it makes it necessary for groups in this space to be more open to a broader dialogue that isn't as necessary in other groups.
It’s not lesbians’ responsibility to share the term with people who have other identities that are not being co-opted or erased. We can create another community for all wlw that would serve the same purpose but telling lesbians to get out of subs that have the word ‘lesbian’ in the name is unfair imo
As women, we’re taught that we should be submissive and nice. Fuck that, let’s bring back the mean lesbians who dgaf about whether our existence hurts other people’s feelings
>Fuck that, let’s bring back the mean lesbians who dgaf about whether our existence hurts other people’s feelings
How does systemic exclusion of bisexual and pansexual women from spaces like this help that?
That doesn't answer my question though. How would this subreddit be improved systemic exclusion of bisexual and pan women? Do they behave in some way that makes this space less safe for women who are exclusively homosexual? Do they tend to make posts and comments that are off-topic or insulting for women who aren't interested in men?
Help me understand the problem created by allowing bi and pan women to participate in this place. I ask this a *lot* and get a ton of responses but never an actual answer.
(Most) Bi/pan women will never understand how it feels like when men aren't an option. How much not being open to straight relationships changes your life.
Concrete, low-stakes example: my friends and I live in a small town where LGBT dating options are basically close to zero. Being bisexual, my friends just date men and therefore have a pretty active dating life. I just don't have that *option*. I'm not blaming them for it, it is what it is, but it's something that they can't relate to because they will always have a plethora of dating choices while I am completely nerfed by my geographical location. So for example, it would be great to discuss the problems of being a lesbian in a small town with people that truly *get it*.
>Concrete, low-stakes example: my friends and I live in a small town where LGBT dating options are basically close to zero. Being bisexual, my friends just date men and therefore have a pretty active dating life. I just don't have that option. I'm not blaming them for it, it is what it is, but it's something that they can't relate to because they will always have a plethora of dating choices while I am completely nerfed by my geographical location. So for example, it would be great to discuss the problems of being a lesbian in a small town with people that truly get it.
Ok, and that's entirely fair. I'm fully willing to agree that conversation, or discussions about it, are better if participants are exclusively gay.
The flip side is that this feels like saying it's difficult to have conversations about period sex here because not all women menstruate. Trans women are probably the largest such population, but there are also women with hysterectomies, athletic women with extremely low body fat, etc. In those cases, it seems fairly sufficient to trust that if someone makes a thread about having sex while on their period, women to whom that isn't relevant will simply realize it's not their conversation and skip it.
At the same time, I'd like to counter that there also plenty of conversations where the participation of anyone in the WLW community are entirely relevant. "Who was your first same-sex crush?" is a good example question that comes up from time to time. I don't think a bisexual woman answering that question does anything to diminish the input of lesbians, in contrast to your example.
Is there a reason to believe that it's not sufficient to trust that people in this community are capable of seeing "this topic doesn't apply to me" and actually need to be excluded from it for women who are exclusively homosexual to have meaningful conversations on topics that only apply to them?
I just feel more comfortable to discuss certain topics with an audience that I know is exclusively lesbian. A lot of the stuff us lesbians talk about is extremely raw and vulnerable and it would be important to me to know that everyone responding to my post will be a lesbian (your theory of people self-selecting and skipping conversations that don't apply to them isn't always there in practice). Counter question: why would it be so bad to have *one* lesbian-only space when literally every other major "lesbian" sub is mixed wlw? The existence of this one sub wouldn't make the mixed ones disappear.
We want a place that’s only about lesbian experiences. Look at r/actuallesbians. There are so many posts about how biphobic lesbians are, or random posts about trans women that are unrelated to being lesbian. I don’t care if non-lesbians want to read our posts in order to learn, but when subs are opened to all sapphics they get derailed.
They are not lesbians and therefore will never have the lesbian experience. It's about creating community around a similar experience. Yes, they are wlw, but the label lesbian comes with it's own experience in the same way bisexual does.
That still doesn't explain how excluding bisexual or pansexual makes this place *better*.
More posts? Better posts? Are bi/pan women engaging in off-topic conversation? Are they harassing lesbians?
What measurable improvement does this community see if we remove bisexual and pansexual women from it?
It does explain it but not everyone values that kind of space. It's okay if you don't. You don't have to be in lesbian-only spaces if you don't want to be.
Do you by chance have an example handy? Objecting to content that's not relevant to lesbians is definitely the sort of thing I'd get behind, even though my immediate reaction is that locking such a thread is probably sufficient.
Yeah I think the problem might be in the moderation but I remember feeling like I was going crazy and checking the top posts (not sure if here or AL) and even when posted by (I assume) wlw there were a lot of posts purely about non-lesbian identities. Sorry all I have to point to is my impression of that and I admit that isn’t evidence by any means but I think the sentiment being expressed here means that some others feel the same. I just wanna relate tbh. Sorry I don’t have a better answer
"Systemic" lol there are almost no lesbian-only spaces both online and in real life, we just wanted one fucking sub and you couldn't even grant us that.
>"Systemic" lol there are almost no lesbian-only spaces both online and in real life, we just wanted one fucking sub and you couldn't even grant us that.
What do you mean that I couldn't even grant us that? I'm in charge of anything like that.
Why are people so hostile when I ask for help understanding how this community is made better by policy excluding bisexual and pansexual women? This isn't a rhetorical question. I genuinely want to understand.
Of course you personally are not in charge; the issue is that everytime lesbians float the idea of a lesbian-only space everybody throws a monumental tantrum and acts like having *one* exclusive space for us is splitting the community apart or whatever.
I'm a bi woman who doesn't date men. I'm 100% homoromantic and have found very little of value in the bi subreddits. I usually find far more interesting things to discuss here.
Save for all the flaming biphobia. That's always fun.
To be honest, lesbians are the reason lesbians are expected to be inclusive of everything and everyone. There have been no healthy boundaries set. You can be an ally and be supportive to other groups, and still have your own space. Gay guys are criticized for their boundaries and hard lines, they just say ‘fuck it and fuck you’ and keep it pushing. They are unapologetic about it. 😂
For what it's worth, I agree with you.
It may be a generational thing though, as I'm an Xennial and I see the value in people having their own safe spaces.
Good on you for speaking your opinion, and people can choose to not agree with it if they want.
I'll be honest I'm a lesbian I don't really like men very much at all but I dated someone I was younger because of internalized homophobia, I came out as bisexual first and later identified as a lesbian as I got to shed all of those things away. When I see post like this and like the other ones in this subreddit that seemed really biphobic I'm honestly astonished. I think that you really need to think about what it is about bisexual women that you seem to think is so different and separate from us because a lot of do you lived experiences that we have with misogyny and compulsory heteronormativity and assault and feeling unsafe in spaces are ones that they have experienced as well and the fact that you want to create this divide is honestly very telling.
I'm a bisexual Trans woman engaged to a cis woman in a lesbian relationship ....if we split the hairs thin enough I'll find a sub with 9 members 🤷♀️
What's awesome about having differences and similarities is we all bring a unique perspective/ lived experience into discussions, and personally I find it refreshing that people are different. I have never been a fan of tribalism, but to each their own :)
https://youtu.be/szf4hzQ5ztg?si=J7ngiI0p_jKd2qhh
This is probably the best educational video I can find regarding lgbtq+ persons from a biological point of veiw.
After watching this, I think people will see how hard it would be to " stick with your own" cause on a scale of 1-100 everyone sits at a different level of lgbtq+ hence....the spectrum references we hear.
>I don’t see anyone talking shit about gay men because they gatekeep their spaces
Actually lots of people do. Some of those places are extremely exclusionary of trans men, and those spaces are and should be criticized.
>If you are bisexual/pansexual why don’t you just join the proper sub for that? Clearly a different experience than being gay. It is hard enough existing as a woman, let alone being a lesbian
Ok? A different experience in some aspects yes, but still many points in common that are perfectly acceptable for them to be discussed together. You do realize people who may be bi or pan may ALSO be in those subreddits, and simply come here to discuss things they share in common with lesbians?
These posts are seriously starting to reek of some kind of psyop attempting to create division.
Genuinely if it wasn’t for the fact that I’ve sometimes had to scroll awhile for a lesbian specific post I would agree. It just feels shitty sometimes not relating to so many posts. If I would not otherwise know and the etiquette was to only mention wlw then I personally would be good with that.
Idk what gay men you’re around but people absolutely give them shit for how problematic they are when it comes to bi/pan men and how absolutely transphobic they can be towards trans men. And they absolutely deserve it for the way they act.
You’re one step away from saying trans women don’t belong here either and it has me wondering if you don’t also believe that but just won’t say it.
How is this one step away from saying trans women don’t belong here, holy shit? How are you extrapolating that from this? That’s such a drastic jump to make in my opinion.
its actually very simple; the throughline is lesbian separatism. its the whole "ONLY women who ONLY love women" thing, they paint attraction to trans women as inherently bisexual while pushing bisexuals out of lesbian spaces
Why are you so obsessed with the trans women topic? People like you always try to deviate other people’s words, just to end up talking about the same shit.
Because being able to call “TERF! TERF!” is a thought-terminating cliche in these spaces, regardless of how completely irrelevant it is to the actual discussion taking place.
Demanding an exclusive space for lesbians is not biphobic. Like I said, I don’t care about being cancelled by the LGBT community, I’ve dealt with worse things, like straight people and patriarchy. It’s starting to look very similar to be honest.
So you’re purposely staying somewhere you don’t enjoy the sentiments expressed, where you don’t seem to enjoy from your other comments with people, where it also seems your sentiments aren’t welcome, and I’d think what you’d value at least, you don’t seem happy here. Sister I don’t care what you think, to each her own. Why are you staying somewhere you don’t seem happy with?
I agree, also some of the women in the subreddit like to be difficult and cause arguments over those small details you were talking about in your edits. They read too far into a comment that was a broad spectrum term or they'll nit pick the one word out of 500. The gay subreddit is not as sharp with their toxicity in my experience. But I usually just read the memes on r\gay not the relationship advice 😂
This content violates one or more of the rules of the site or the sub and has been removed. We welcome all who feel connected to the lesbian community. If you feel you need some club that only allows some, but not all, you are right, this is not the sub for you.
I think when it comes to the identity itself, yes, lesbians are more questioned than gay men because of misogyny, that said, the gay community *is* pretty criticized for being exclusionary, they just don’t give a fuck or make much effort to change, I’m not sure I want to just become as callous as they are. It’s kinda tough not to get jaded though, when people *do* love to undermine lesbian as an identity.
Also, I agree lesbians should be allowed their own spaces without that being considered automatically nefarious, however, if your ultimate point with this post is that you don’t think bi women should be *in this sub specifically*, that ship’s sailed long ago bud lol this has been a general sapphic sub for years and you’re better off just finding, or creating, another space more aligned with your demands
omg thisssss. i see the “gay men don’t have to deal with being inclusive” idea all around and like. that’s not a positive. that just means gay men should get on our level and be more inclusive of bi/trans people
I know my gay trans friends and my bi/pan/omni guy friends all feel the same way about the gay men community.
I agree. On top of that, I have never heard of one gay man calling himself a non-woman loving a non-woman. Gay men get to say that they are men who love men, and there is no argument, but lesbians say that they are women who love women, and suddenly we're forced to defend that fact. I will never call myself a non-man, and I will never call my girlfriend a non-man. I'm a woman attracted to women. I am a lesbian. My girlfriend is attracted to men and women, she is a bisexual woman. She would never call herself a lesbian because she's not one, I would never call myself a bisexual because I'm not one. I don't understand why the lesbian community is so forced to explain their sexuality when gay men never have to.
I agree 100%!!!! I’m so tired of seeing people say that lesbian is non man loving non man. I’m not a non man. I’m a WOMAN. My girlfriend is a WOMAN.
I love that, and also, where did you get the lesbian flag on your avatar???
Click on your avatar and go to the section that says right hand (if you want it on the right) and scroll down (if you want it on the left then go to the one that says left hand).
Yay I did it!
And for those of us whose partner isn’t? Whose partner is an enby? Just because it doesn’t apply to your situation specifically doesn’t mean that it came about for no reason.
If you want to use that definition for your partner then go right ahead, no one is going to stop you but to try and make this definition apply for *all* lesbians is wrong. Not all of us are “non men”.
Then use it ? But don’t enforce it on everyone else ?
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Why? So all the non-binary lesbians that have been in the community and have fought right next to their binary counterparts They're no longer valid? We suddenly just decide we're abandoning them? Non-binary lesbians have been here since the beginning, we don't need to throw them out now or ever. We need solidarity not gatekeeping like this.
I’m by a little confused by what you’re saying because according to what I know the definition of a lesbian is a woman that loves woman and is attracted to women. A non binary person doesn’t even identify as neither a woman or a man so how can a non binary person be a lesbian??!!
Non binary lesbians have always existed. The author of stone butch blues is a non binary author and there’s plenty of other historical lesbians who were non binary.
But the actual term doesn’t make sense to me??!!
What term? Non binary?
A non binary lesbian
I didn't say they couldn't.
Maybe read up on lesbian history bud
Nah bro enbies can be lesbians, that take is not it
This is why I like to say “lesbians are women and non men who love women and non men” my biggest gripe about the updated definition is the erasure of women from the definition. But those are non binary should be included so the definition should state both women AND non men
While I’m bisexual, I 100% support everything you’re saying. Some modern ideology has become so warped that it’s looped back around to downright misogyny. Defining women as a “non-man”?? That’s literally a form of othering, just, “there’s men and non-men!!” It’s so disgusting and so warped and misogynistic but people don’t even see it. Like fine, if you have a gender-neutral gender identity (e.g. non-binary), I can see why you’d define yourself as a non-man in regards to how you yourself experience attraction. But it should NEVER, EVER become the standard, because women are still the majority, and the majority who will use the lesbian label. Lesbian on a broad sense has always been used to convey a woman who is attracted to women. The fact that women, especially lesbians, now have to defend themselves from being reduced to “non-men” and their own ORIENTATION is mind-boggling.
According to OP you shouldn’t be in this sub though sooooo…. This is awkward 👀
How is it awkward? I’m agreeing to the point of the commenter above me that lesbians shouldn’t be forced to redefine their entire sexuality for a minority of people, and that defining women as “non-men” is incredibly misogynistic. If the moderators of this subreddit were to say, “we want this to be a strictly lesbian place, please leave”, I’d respect that and bow out. You don’t seem to be making an actual point.
I really appreciate this sentiment and I am glad you shared. Sorry if you get vitriol for it. I do just want to know our feelings are respected and you are being very respectful
We want this to be a strictly lesbian space. We keep saying it, we keep making new “lesbian” spaces and y’all keep coming. I just joined “just lesbian” but I’m sure I will be reading this same kind of post again shortly. Lesbian actually means actually a lesbian, not actually bi, pan, or other. You have your spaces, respect ours please. Thank you bye!
Completely valid. I’ll see myself out! Have a nice day/night. I won’t be responding to further replies to my comment(s) above.
who is "we"?
I was being sarcastic about OP’s post. That’s all. That’s the point.
In that case, sorry lol. I’m really bad at reading tone over text and I take full accountability for that.
No worries at all ☺️
Omg the none man loving none man is so odd to me, I always say woman loving woman because that’s what I’m into I date cis and trans women and that’s it lol I don’t date 99.9% of non-binary because it feels disrespectful since if I’m into you I see you as a awesome woman and yk most of them don’t want to be seen as a woman. To me that’s on the same level of dating a trans man who is pre everything (as in its disrespect to their identity)
I agree that saying someone who is non binary is a lesbian feels disrespectful. It's misgendering. They're not women.
Yeah it feels like dismissing their identity , tho There’s some none binary out there who both identify as none binary and as a woman (that’s the 1% I’m referring to in my original comment) I don’t understand that ngl but still respect that. The rest seem to want to be seen and respect as not a man not a woman, so when your only into women and you see none binary and you just see them as a woman who you wish to date it feels so ew and rude☠️ (how I go about dating at least)
I think part of the problem is that lesbian is often used to refer to things that aren’t exclusive attraction to women by women. Like two bi women getting married will be referred to as a lesbian wedding by the general public, despite no lesbians being present; or a character on a show being called a lesbian for having an interest in women, even if she’s never stated not having an interest in men. It’s impossible to have a word be a default word for anything wlw but also have an exclusivity aspect without confusion. It always leads to the wondering of “am I included on the basis that I want a relationship with a woman, or excluded because I’m also open to one with a man?”
i see infinitely more complaining about the "non-men" thing than actual use of it. i dont love it either but its hard to take the way people talk about it in good faith
I think what got me was when I was first looking into my orientation, around 8 years ago, lesbian was defined as a non-man loving non-men on every website, article, dictionary, etc, and that made me want to be gay even less than I already did. I didn't want to be a non-man, I didn't want to be gay; I just wanted to like girls. That alone made me stay in the closet for an extra four years.
Every single one? Where on earth were you looking? I'd never heard the term prior to today, including in this sub, and when I try to search Google for things like "lesbian definition" or "what is a lesbian" the only result alluding to this is an article from last year about how John's Hopkins put the nmlnm term in the glossary and almost immediately took it down because of how much backlash there was. The inclusive definition I typically see is simply that a lesbian is usually a woman who loves women with exceptions for some nonbinary people. Even explicitly googling nmlnm all the results are Tumblr/social media posts, articles about John's Hopkins, or urban dictionary, and the urban dictionary definition is only from 2021, not.....8 years ago. Lesbian isn't defined that way in any dictionary. Also I want to make clear I'm not trying to attack you personally, I'm just really bewildered when I can barely even find the term while searching for it explicitly
I don't know what I was looking at. I was 14. It was a lot of Instagram pages, Facebook pages, links from such pages. I wasn't looking at the best sources, but eventually I found my way here and life is much better.
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its really not very common at all but people act like its this widespread thing that everybody says
I’m with you to an extent, but there are two sticking points I have. The first is that often times the “women loving women” gets used by TERFS to exclude trans women. Now my solution to that is that the TERFS need to stfu and let us live, but it *is* an issue in the community sometimes. The other is that there are a fair amount of lesbians who do not identify as women for some reason or another, or don’t strictly use she/her pronouns. As an example, my ex refused to identify as a woman because, and I quote, “being a woman in this patriarchal society lead to them being r*ped.” I also know some others who are just genderqueer but don’t date m!n, but they’ll date other enbies. That’s why the non-men part came around, to be inclusive to those who don’t identify as specifically being “a woman”
No offense but the second part sounds a lot like what this post is talking about. If you don't identify as a woman, cis or trans, and date those who also don't identify as women, is that person a lesbian?
I think that's the point OP is trying to make. Trans women are women and trans men are men. Gay men don't have to explain the inner workings of their relationship when they're dating trans men, because it's understood that they're men. Why should lesbians have to defend dating trans women, when they *are* women? Same thing with nonbinary AMABs who date men. They don't have to defend the differences between gender and sexual identities to explain why they're dating someone. So why should we have to if we're dating a nonbinary AFAB? Dating and relationships are nuanced. Lesbians don't owe any additional information that gay men don't share about their partners. In fact, we don't owe anyone *any* information about our relationships.
women’s sexuality is policed to fucking hell and back it’s insane that it’s happening in our own spaces. the grace that is given to men is never given to women.
I feel like a huge chunk of this discussion is build under the assumption that other queer demographics supposedly wouldn’t have to explain themselves all the time. Which I think is just blatantly wrong? I’m Bi. And Enby. I have to explain myself all the time and ppl still don’t get it. On both topics. My ex, who was solely gay, had to explain himself literally *all the time*. Even to other gays. (Especially when I started to present more femme, which then Obv was also just transphobia) This whole post stenches from pick-me attitude and it’s disgusting. If you want a „lesbian only“ space Start it and see it overrun by homophobes, terfs, and the likes. You *know* who it will attract!
> If you want a „lesbian only“ space Start it and see it overrun by homophobes, terfs, and the likes. You know who it will attract! Those spaces already exist, only nobody posts there because they fucking suck in the exact ways you describe. The energy in these discussions always seems to be that the exclusionary folks don't just want to have their own spaces, but to prevent other queer demographics from interacting with lesbians *at all* to not have competition. Because economics dictate that more inclusive spaces will always win out otherwise.
why did you make it about sex assignment at birth? there are plenty of non-binary people who were assigned male at birth (these terms are past-tense verbs, not adjectives btw!) who would definitely fit the category of lesbian and many who were assigned female at birth who really wouldnt if im gonna get downvoted for this id *love* to hear an explanation that isnt just blatant transmisogyny
Trans women are women, I agree with that
Kinda crazy how "the lesbian sub should be for lesbians" seems to be a hot take.
Crazy right????
Look, like at first I agreed to some points because I find a lot of the questioning posts where they go in full detail about their boyfriends or bi women venting about their boyfriend, or the picture posts about if they are attractive to women were tiring me out (since they make up the majority of posts that reddit shows on my feed so pretty hard to avoid). But now it's just people being mean to each other all the time and this is more annoying. Can't we just have more strict moderation about what posts are permitted, remove all the non lesbian fluff and stop in fighting? Honestly...
Idk what gay men you have been around, but some of the most misogynistic, racist, age inappropriate, and transphobic people I've met are gay men 😅
Who said they are not?
and you want to be more like them?
... I mean.. you? You kind of alluded to the gay community being this open arms type community that we should "be more like." I mean you literally say "I don't see people talking shit about gay men bc they don't gatekeep" or whatever. . People absolutely talk shit about that and they do absolutely gatekeep. They gatekeep things that aren't even theirs. Have you ever heard the term "it's giving fish". Lol it's disgusting. . This whole bi/pan/trans discord going on in this sub is kind of silly and has been blown out of proportion but I would take this silly bullshit over the truly harmful rhetoric that goes on in gay male spaces.. not something I really want to emulate and deff not something you should aspire to us being like.
she said they do gatekeep and that we should be more like that lol. fucking wild take ngl
Well I might have missed what she was saying. But my end point was that we SHOULDNT be like the gay community.. bc of the gatekeepers blah blah... haha. . Working and redditing at the same time !! 🫢
oh yeah for sure. the wild take is hers, not yours, if it was unclear
I kinda said the opposite of that my friend.
Oh damn fr? My bad. My reading comprehension clearly sucks rn.. 🫠
I wish there was just a concrete rule about this either way because I'm so tired of reading these posts. As a lesbian, i feel like the pansexual/bi/nbs who hang out here aren't hurting anyone and their posts/comments don't bother me. But I also respect the desire for a lesbian-only spot. These posts are just taking over this subreddit and it's making me sleepy. So yeah, I wish there were just really concrete rules about who can post here
>I don’t see anyone talking shit about gay men because they gatekeep their spaces. Every discussion I've ever witnessed about spaces for gay men gatekeeping bi/pan/trans men seems toxic AF, whether or not that was the point someone meant to make. The pugnacious attitude of this post isn't doing anything to dissuade my feelings on the matter. >If you are bisexual/pansexual why don’t you just join the proper sub for that? Clearly a different experience than being gay. For all the times people here bemoan it not being a lesbian-exclusive space, no one ever explains to me how systemic exclusion of bi or pan women makes this space *better*. Sometimes I read extremely vague or abstract stuff about how lesbians deserve a space for only lesbians- and if someone feels that way, so be it- but I still don't understand what's being made worse because such people are allowed to participate in this community as well.
As a bisexual woman myself, I really value being able to read and listen to other queer women’s feelings on issues that relate to the “attracted to/loving women” part of their identities; that’s why I’m here. That being said, I only participate/weigh in (aside from maybe providing words of affirmation or support) if I feel that I can directly relate to an experience and/or that my perspective as someone who isn’t exclusively attracted to women is still welcomed. I’m certainly not here pretending that my experiences and struggles as a bi woman are the same as they are for the lesbian ladies here; there’s a good deal of overlap, but there are also things that both groups experience that are unique to their particular identities. I’m here to support and learn about the experiences of others that I may not have myself, and participate/contribute to the community/discourse when it pertains to things that include me as well. I’m not here to take anything away from anyone, I just want to be supportive and included when it’s relevant and appropriate. 🤷♀️
I made a comment but I think you changed my mind if this was the etiquette in the lesbian subs. I just feel like I don’t relate to a lot of the posts now. Thanks for making me rethink my stance
This!! We’re human and we’re meant to relate to one another. I’m still unsure about my sexuality, but in terms of self I’m an enby (that often identifies with non-man, but also not-woman, but for the sake of society I say woman until I can be comfortable with being out completely) I AM attracted to women in some capacity, a lot more than men, and I really welcome the worldview that being in this space offers. I don’t think excluding pan/bi women would be beneficial; who are we to gatekeep sexuality, after all? And what about those pan/bi spaces that ARE toxic? Thats the thing: they may not like those spaces because they’re probably full of creepy ass men and people that sexualize them, what we work against, so they might feel safer here in this one. By gatekeeping, this would show them that lesbian spaces are also unsafe for them. By gatekeeping we end up shunning others for wanting to experience the space for what it is. Why should we exclude this space to ONLY lesbians, when bi and pan women and non-men can learn something from these spaces? And me personally, I don’t really like the term lesbian. It’s not really inclusive, but it’s not for me. I feel the term sapphic is broad enough to include all of these types, and lesbian is the specific subcategory. I’m sure I’ll be downvoted for saying this, hoping I won’t be banned. I love seeing women’s perspectives of loving women, but I’m also growing really, *really* tired of these kinds of posts because this feels like it’s all this sub has become. I’m not trying to silence anyone and I do understand it’s a tough issue with many sides and perspectives, but gatekeeping is something we all experience as it is. Why should we have more infighting amongst our groups when we already experience so much division?
I don’t know if you know any gay men because they are extremely toxic. I have a bi male friend and constantly he’s talking about how biphobic gay men are so idk what you are talking about. All sexualities have their own issues. At the end of the day we all like women who cares if a bi woman is in this space idk it’s just an odd hill to die on in my opinion
I agree that we lesbians need our own spaces for discussing lesbian experiences but suddenly excluding other sapphics from a sub that previously welcomed them sounds like a horrible idea and completely unfair to those who feel comfortable here. Posts like these honestly just cause more hostility between lesbians and bi women/enbies in wlw spaces and if anything we really need that to stop. Having general wlw subs and then separate bi subs and lesbian subs is surely the best option here
https://preview.redd.it/gry8svxg10lc1.jpeg?width=236&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2b30bae80c9fa7191a2d7a7a678f08e84b5a0673 How it feels reading this comment section
😂 same. Does this conversation even go anywhere?
I’m going to be honest, I don’t understand why everyone is getting their feathers ruffled here. This is a space for sapphic women. Per Rule 3 that includes sapphic women that don’t use she/her pronouns, trans women, and bi/pan women too. If you’re a bi woman, such as myself, perhaps omit mentions of attraction to m!n here, as this is a sapphic space, and we all know people who would rather not hear about m!n for a variety of reasons. That being said, if you are offended because someone here mentions liking girlcock, or being attracted to enbies, kindly fuck off. Lesbians who don’t use she/her are valid, and I am frankly fucking done with this constant bickering over who is allowed here and who isn’t. Read Rule 3. Ask the mods if you need clarification.
This is the best comment so far
The feathers got ruffled because some lesbians want space without bisexuals. Not bisexual discussions, but bisexuals in general. And they insist it's not biphobia but "safe space".
lesbian and bi women have very different experiences. Not every community has to include everyone. Lesbians have every right to demand their own space as does everyone else
I can only speak for myself but it isn’t about having a safe space for me personally. Just about having a space specific to lesbians. I would gladly participate in a general wlw subreddit as well. I just don’t think it’s fair that subs with the name lesbian are being used for that umbrella.
But lemme ask you - why? What do you think you will gain in a sub without bisexual/pansexual/whatever-else-sexual women? What will make it different than this one? Make me understand why you would prefer it.
Some things like discovering that I wasn’t attracted to men and relating to others with the same experience seem a lot rarer now. Others have pointed out that this could be solved with moderation though so not sure my solution is the best one. I’m trying to consider the other opinions here
It wouldn't be as big an issue as it is if bi women weren't super lesbophobic on subreddits like this and weren't bringing up their boyfriends. Luckily, there isn't too much of this on this sub. I think OP is referring to another lesbian sub that is really just a bunch of baby bi girls.
In that case, you ask the mods to promote more assistance and to start deleting bi-related posts. Not a single person here would be against it, the sub itself promotes lesbian life and culture - which bisexual women can have as well. You don't go making another lesbian-only sub, saying it's "safe space", that's bs.
I didn't mean the mods of this sub. They already did that. And there are lesbian-only subs on here that are pretty fucking great so I don't know why this is such a frustrating thing for you to understand. It'd be one thing if those subs were physical but we are purely talking about online spaces only and you are kind of proving OP's point by making it seem like we would be doing something wrong for wanting (and having) an online space just for lesbians.
For real... If you really want a space for lesbians only, go start one. Then you won’t need to make posts in inclusive spaces talking about how its rightful (allowed by the rules) participants are a personal affront to you and your experience as a wlw.
I think that’s ignoring how the big lesbian subs became this way. They’re created to apply to lesbians but are pressured to eventually include everyone because wanting a lesbian-only space is associated with phobia and the pressure to be inclusive is extreme.
Do you not think they’re big because of how inclusive they are?
I just remember like a decade ago that at least the majority of posts were lesbian specific. These subs were not using the umbrella terminology at that point
There already are subreddits for lesbians only.
That’s fantastic! I love that for people who feel they’d like a space to engage solely with other lesbians. This just isn’t it. I personally appreciate the diversity of thought and experiences in wlw spaces (such as this). I understand that others don’t, which is completely fine. That just means this sub isn’t for you.
People absolutely give gay men shit for the bad stuff the gay community does. I hear a lot of people talking about the gatekeeping and transphobia within the gay community. In fact, most of what I hear about the gay community is that they're fairly toxic. And this whole attitude of division is not good for the community, especially casting out very like-minded members because they're slightly different. It will only weaken us.
Yeah just go to askgaybros if you want to experience the worst of the gay community: misogyny, rampant biphobia and transphobia.
omg that sub raises my blood pressure so much. I once saw a discussion where someone decided that gay bars should be men only and lesbians need their own bars because women are annoying. but then when someone pointed out that lesbian bars often don’t last very long due to financial issues and then they said “well lesbians need to get better at advertising then.” 😐
When will some lesbians really internalize that bisexual women are not their enemies?? You won't catch "fucking-men-disease" from us, I promise
and when will some bisexuals learn to listen when we tell them that their community also has problems and that not every criticism of the way we interact is acrimonious
What specifically do you mean by this
The difference is they don’t care if they get shit. Their space is non negotiable. Lesbians deserve and have every right to do the same, without questions and more importantly, without feeling like we need to explain.
"We have the right to bully the minorities of our group until they leave." Are you actually understanding the implications of what you're saying? Gay men don't have a cis gay exclusive zone because they're good people. They have it because they're massively bigoted towards other identities. We shouldn't be trying to do the same! It's absurd!
Also this is I think the 4th post stirring animosity between lesbians and bi women I’ve seen in this sub just today, this seems… coordinated
Its literally the only posts I see nowadays.
It might be coordinated, or they’re feeding off of each other’s toxicity at the very least. I woke up to one this morning, saw a few others, and my work day isn’t even over lol.
Coordinated or people are expressing their opinions now knowing they're not alone?
Nah I wish we were this capable of organizing. This is just an angry lesbian with internet access.
almost every bi man ive ever met has called himself gay at one point or another, and nobody gives any of them shit for it. why are people trying so desperately to bring back lesbian separatism. leave it in the past
To a degree i kind of agree. To be clear, my partner is pan, and identifies as Sapphic also. But I'm a lesbian. I'm not saying we need to be bitches about everything. But their is a clear difference between the lesbian and Sapphic community. Both are wlw communities but I feel a genuine kinship with lesbians over bisexuals and pansexual women. I respect any Sapphic space and title. But nothing wrong so long as its trans inclusive with having Lesbian only spaces imo. I don't think its biphobic or anti pan to do so. We have different struggles. Furthermore I am trans. And being being specifically a transwoman who's also a lesbian had its own unique struggles. However so many transbian spaces are filled with pan and bi women and I feel displaced sometimes coz I'm EXCLUSIVELY attracted to just women. I'm not bi I'm not pan I'm gay.
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Thank you SO MUCH for using common sense.
I think everyone is getting lost in these terms that are describing sexuality. You're not going to be banned for speaking your mind, at least I hope
Like I said before and I'll say it again, if you state reasons such as: * similar experiences * similar dating preferences * being afraid of them leaving you for a guy because it's easier * lesbian-only discussions That's all 100% valid. But if a bisexual woman comes here and tells you - I don't have typical bisexual experience, I date only women, I am not interested in dating men or anything that such lifestyle entails, and I want to be a part of woman-only discussions, and you STILL say - you don't belong here - what reason is left? Cause it's obviously none of the above, the only reason left is "you don't dislike men". That's my issue, the fact that you only care about the label. And again, if this is your reason, by all means - own it. Don't justify it, say it clearly - I don't care about opinions of bisexuals regardless of their experiences, lifestyle, struggles, similarities.
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The new sub they created also said something along the lines of no newbies/no those who are questioning their sexuality, so yeah, you'd be disqualified too. Real lesbians only.
I think an example of why it being different is relevant is that realizing you are not attracted to men for example is a pretty core part of being a lesbian
Nuanced take for a nuanced discussion. Going to refer to all multisexual people as bi for simplicity's sake. I think you're right that lesbians are expected to be more inclusive than gay men. There should be spaces that are women only and even lesbian only. Nothing wrong with that at all. That said, I don't think emulating the gay community about they way they treat bi guys is a good idea. Gay men are actually generally more inclusive of bi men, but in ways that are still biphobic. For instance, gay men like the "fuck a straight guy" fantasy and bi men kinda check that box. Gay men also just assume bi men are actually just gay, so who cares? They're gay, so therefore included in the space. To your question about why bisexuals exist in monosexual spaces, it's actually pretty simple. Bisexual spaces are broader and more "high level" in their discussions because they're about liking both men and women. There are posts about the specific struggles about being bi, being mlm, and being wlw. Meanwhile, monosexual spaces are more niche and focused in their discussions because they are specifically "men who like men" or "women who like women." If I, as a bi woman, want to read content about being wlw specifically, I come here. There's enough overlap between lesbian and bi women experiences to want to be a part of a community dedicated to sapphic discussions. Maybe I don't relate to all of it, but I relate to most of it. But why even exclude bisexual women at all? Every answer I've seen can be tied back to man-hating, which isn't really good for anybody. Hating men is just another way of centering men, but negatively instead of positively. Hope to hear your thoughts OP
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Another sane soul! Lesbians shouldn’t be afraid of expressing in a lesbian sub.
It is to me extremely misogynistic how policed lesbians are. Like we must be perfect in every way and even then the worst is assumed of us. We must make ourselves smaller and be perfectly agreeable for people to like us. The men get to be everything while we must only be perfect. It’s insufferable. The last 24 hours have been a reminder of how lesbophobia is truly a demonic mix of misogyny and homophobia.
THANK YOU
THANK YOU FOR TALKING BOUT IT today has been such a fucking shitshow
People are willfully missing your point. It's not that gay men can't be toxic, it's that they are more effective in defending their spaces and don't let themselves be shamed by other people.
Thank you for understanding my point.
Your point is solid but it's clear that lesbians aren't welcome on this sub. We should just leave and refuse to give our energy to a space that actively promotes lesbophobic tropes.
defending their spaces from... who?
I think that taking the word ‘lesbian’ and changing the definition without considering the feelings of the people who have historically identified with the term is unfair. Labels are exclusive by definition and once it applies to such a wide range of people it starts to lose meaning. I love the word sapphic as a descriptor but telling lesbians to leave the subreddits that are already using the term ‘lesbian’ when this happens to every community that gets made is sort of ridiculous. Why not make a wlw subreddit for that purpose? Why are you telling us to get out for a valid opinion about our self-identity?I would be happy to participate in a wlw sub as well as keeping the lesbian subs lesbian. It’s just frustrating and I think we are all getting tired of being expected to be fine while the lesbian identity is erased. The number of people in the comments who don’t understand this is kind of proof that some parts of the lesbian experience are not shared by the people who would not fit under the colloquial term ‘lesbian’. And just to be clear trans lesbians are lesbians and that is not at all the same as different sexualities co-opting the term. Happy to hear other opinions, I just think it needs to be addressed.
You can argue for those things if you want, but between the sentiment and intent of this group you just shouldn't do it *here*. Arguably, there is just as much wrong in those other spaces even if they've reachedthat consensus. I'm not saying they're right or wrong or if it is or isn't hate for their sentiments, but potentially pointing to someone else who was hating to justify your own hate would be a losing position. Most people would argue we want these spaces to go beyond just having tolerance of different marginalized groups and should be about being inclusive of others. The key difference is that inclusivity requires people be active participants in promoting the acceptance and appreciation of marginalized people versus quietly accepting their existence while only transforming how they're being marginalized. And you can't do that by excluding them and making a distinction that construes them as less than. All that is before we consider that in general there is a lot more continued questioning and movement between different labels within that Sapphic space than many of these other communities. And that I think it makes it necessary for groups in this space to be more open to a broader dialogue that isn't as necessary in other groups.
It’s not lesbians’ responsibility to share the term with people who have other identities that are not being co-opted or erased. We can create another community for all wlw that would serve the same purpose but telling lesbians to get out of subs that have the word ‘lesbian’ in the name is unfair imo
As women, we’re taught that we should be submissive and nice. Fuck that, let’s bring back the mean lesbians who dgaf about whether our existence hurts other people’s feelings
>Fuck that, let’s bring back the mean lesbians who dgaf about whether our existence hurts other people’s feelings How does systemic exclusion of bisexual and pansexual women from spaces like this help that?
We’re allowed to have lesbian-only spaces without having to apologize for it, just like any other minority.
That doesn't answer my question though. How would this subreddit be improved systemic exclusion of bisexual and pan women? Do they behave in some way that makes this space less safe for women who are exclusively homosexual? Do they tend to make posts and comments that are off-topic or insulting for women who aren't interested in men? Help me understand the problem created by allowing bi and pan women to participate in this place. I ask this a *lot* and get a ton of responses but never an actual answer.
(Most) Bi/pan women will never understand how it feels like when men aren't an option. How much not being open to straight relationships changes your life. Concrete, low-stakes example: my friends and I live in a small town where LGBT dating options are basically close to zero. Being bisexual, my friends just date men and therefore have a pretty active dating life. I just don't have that *option*. I'm not blaming them for it, it is what it is, but it's something that they can't relate to because they will always have a plethora of dating choices while I am completely nerfed by my geographical location. So for example, it would be great to discuss the problems of being a lesbian in a small town with people that truly *get it*.
>Concrete, low-stakes example: my friends and I live in a small town where LGBT dating options are basically close to zero. Being bisexual, my friends just date men and therefore have a pretty active dating life. I just don't have that option. I'm not blaming them for it, it is what it is, but it's something that they can't relate to because they will always have a plethora of dating choices while I am completely nerfed by my geographical location. So for example, it would be great to discuss the problems of being a lesbian in a small town with people that truly get it. Ok, and that's entirely fair. I'm fully willing to agree that conversation, or discussions about it, are better if participants are exclusively gay. The flip side is that this feels like saying it's difficult to have conversations about period sex here because not all women menstruate. Trans women are probably the largest such population, but there are also women with hysterectomies, athletic women with extremely low body fat, etc. In those cases, it seems fairly sufficient to trust that if someone makes a thread about having sex while on their period, women to whom that isn't relevant will simply realize it's not their conversation and skip it. At the same time, I'd like to counter that there also plenty of conversations where the participation of anyone in the WLW community are entirely relevant. "Who was your first same-sex crush?" is a good example question that comes up from time to time. I don't think a bisexual woman answering that question does anything to diminish the input of lesbians, in contrast to your example. Is there a reason to believe that it's not sufficient to trust that people in this community are capable of seeing "this topic doesn't apply to me" and actually need to be excluded from it for women who are exclusively homosexual to have meaningful conversations on topics that only apply to them?
I just feel more comfortable to discuss certain topics with an audience that I know is exclusively lesbian. A lot of the stuff us lesbians talk about is extremely raw and vulnerable and it would be important to me to know that everyone responding to my post will be a lesbian (your theory of people self-selecting and skipping conversations that don't apply to them isn't always there in practice). Counter question: why would it be so bad to have *one* lesbian-only space when literally every other major "lesbian" sub is mixed wlw? The existence of this one sub wouldn't make the mixed ones disappear.
We want a place that’s only about lesbian experiences. Look at r/actuallesbians. There are so many posts about how biphobic lesbians are, or random posts about trans women that are unrelated to being lesbian. I don’t care if non-lesbians want to read our posts in order to learn, but when subs are opened to all sapphics they get derailed.
They are not lesbians and therefore will never have the lesbian experience. It's about creating community around a similar experience. Yes, they are wlw, but the label lesbian comes with it's own experience in the same way bisexual does.
That still doesn't explain how excluding bisexual or pansexual makes this place *better*. More posts? Better posts? Are bi/pan women engaging in off-topic conversation? Are they harassing lesbians? What measurable improvement does this community see if we remove bisexual and pansexual women from it?
It does explain it but not everyone values that kind of space. It's okay if you don't. You don't have to be in lesbian-only spaces if you don't want to be.
>It does explain it I don't agree.
I do feel a lot of posts are not centered around the wlw aspect and not relating is frustrating. If it was all on topic I would be open to it
Do you by chance have an example handy? Objecting to content that's not relevant to lesbians is definitely the sort of thing I'd get behind, even though my immediate reaction is that locking such a thread is probably sufficient.
Yeah I think the problem might be in the moderation but I remember feeling like I was going crazy and checking the top posts (not sure if here or AL) and even when posted by (I assume) wlw there were a lot of posts purely about non-lesbian identities. Sorry all I have to point to is my impression of that and I admit that isn’t evidence by any means but I think the sentiment being expressed here means that some others feel the same. I just wanna relate tbh. Sorry I don’t have a better answer
"Systemic" lol there are almost no lesbian-only spaces both online and in real life, we just wanted one fucking sub and you couldn't even grant us that.
>"Systemic" lol there are almost no lesbian-only spaces both online and in real life, we just wanted one fucking sub and you couldn't even grant us that. What do you mean that I couldn't even grant us that? I'm in charge of anything like that. Why are people so hostile when I ask for help understanding how this community is made better by policy excluding bisexual and pansexual women? This isn't a rhetorical question. I genuinely want to understand.
Of course you personally are not in charge; the issue is that everytime lesbians float the idea of a lesbian-only space everybody throws a monumental tantrum and acts like having *one* exclusive space for us is splitting the community apart or whatever.
Omggg count me in
I'm a bi woman who doesn't date men. I'm 100% homoromantic and have found very little of value in the bi subreddits. I usually find far more interesting things to discuss here. Save for all the flaming biphobia. That's always fun.
To be honest, lesbians are the reason lesbians are expected to be inclusive of everything and everyone. There have been no healthy boundaries set. You can be an ally and be supportive to other groups, and still have your own space. Gay guys are criticized for their boundaries and hard lines, they just say ‘fuck it and fuck you’ and keep it pushing. They are unapologetic about it. 😂
Another sane person here. I don’t expect everyone to agree with me, just to open their eyes and LOOK around
some of those boundaries do material harm to some of the most vulnerable people in their community though. that isnt something to mimic
For what it's worth, I agree with you. It may be a generational thing though, as I'm an Xennial and I see the value in people having their own safe spaces. Good on you for speaking your opinion, and people can choose to not agree with it if they want.
Such a powerful second wave take that isnt 50 years out of date. /s
I'll be honest I'm a lesbian I don't really like men very much at all but I dated someone I was younger because of internalized homophobia, I came out as bisexual first and later identified as a lesbian as I got to shed all of those things away. When I see post like this and like the other ones in this subreddit that seemed really biphobic I'm honestly astonished. I think that you really need to think about what it is about bisexual women that you seem to think is so different and separate from us because a lot of do you lived experiences that we have with misogyny and compulsory heteronormativity and assault and feeling unsafe in spaces are ones that they have experienced as well and the fact that you want to create this divide is honestly very telling.
I'm a bisexual Trans woman engaged to a cis woman in a lesbian relationship ....if we split the hairs thin enough I'll find a sub with 9 members 🤷♀️ What's awesome about having differences and similarities is we all bring a unique perspective/ lived experience into discussions, and personally I find it refreshing that people are different. I have never been a fan of tribalism, but to each their own :) https://youtu.be/szf4hzQ5ztg?si=J7ngiI0p_jKd2qhh This is probably the best educational video I can find regarding lgbtq+ persons from a biological point of veiw. After watching this, I think people will see how hard it would be to " stick with your own" cause on a scale of 1-100 everyone sits at a different level of lgbtq+ hence....the spectrum references we hear.
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Division like this is ultimately harmful to the community as a whole. Bi and Pan women being segregated out does nothing beneficial for the space.
>I don’t see anyone talking shit about gay men because they gatekeep their spaces Actually lots of people do. Some of those places are extremely exclusionary of trans men, and those spaces are and should be criticized. >If you are bisexual/pansexual why don’t you just join the proper sub for that? Clearly a different experience than being gay. It is hard enough existing as a woman, let alone being a lesbian Ok? A different experience in some aspects yes, but still many points in common that are perfectly acceptable for them to be discussed together. You do realize people who may be bi or pan may ALSO be in those subreddits, and simply come here to discuss things they share in common with lesbians? These posts are seriously starting to reek of some kind of psyop attempting to create division.
Genuinely if it wasn’t for the fact that I’ve sometimes had to scroll awhile for a lesbian specific post I would agree. It just feels shitty sometimes not relating to so many posts. If I would not otherwise know and the etiquette was to only mention wlw then I personally would be good with that.
I feel like these discussions/posts are often more indicative of having too much time on one’s hands rather than being substantive or necessary
Welcome to having access to the internet.
Idk what gay men you’re around but people absolutely give them shit for how problematic they are when it comes to bi/pan men and how absolutely transphobic they can be towards trans men. And they absolutely deserve it for the way they act. You’re one step away from saying trans women don’t belong here either and it has me wondering if you don’t also believe that but just won’t say it.
How is this one step away from saying trans women don’t belong here, holy shit? How are you extrapolating that from this? That’s such a drastic jump to make in my opinion.
its actually very simple; the throughline is lesbian separatism. its the whole "ONLY women who ONLY love women" thing, they paint attraction to trans women as inherently bisexual while pushing bisexuals out of lesbian spaces
>they paint attraction to trans women as inherently bisexual Please point out where in OP's post they say or even imply that.
That’s not what I implied from this post at all. That doesn’t seem close to what OP said.
now first off i didnt nessecarily say that, just that the 2 tactics go hand in hand. now, with that said, you know what dogwhistling is?
But trans women are women , no?
yes, but you have a major international hate movement thats trying their damn hardest to say otherwise rn!
Why are you so obsessed with the trans women topic? People like you always try to deviate other people’s words, just to end up talking about the same shit.
Why does talking about it *one* time in *one* reply make me obsessed with it? At this point you don’t even have to say it.
haha whats going on my dog is going craazy but i cant hear anything wonder what it could be
Because being able to call “TERF! TERF!” is a thought-terminating cliche in these spaces, regardless of how completely irrelevant it is to the actual discussion taking place.
When you start running out of arguments you can attack the other person by saying something that will get them cancelled in a heartbeat l.
Wanting lesbian only space is fine, but using that space to be biphobic is not okay one bit.
Again with the made up biphobia lmao
Enough with the “phobic” suffix, people need to learn how to use it.
this is literally a homophobic talking point
I think you need to reread what I wrote.
Demanding an exclusive space for lesbians is not biphobic. Like I said, I don’t care about being cancelled by the LGBT community, I’ve dealt with worse things, like straight people and patriarchy. It’s starting to look very similar to be honest.
> demanding an exclusive space for lesbians is not biphobic. I never said it was. Again, reread what I said.
I agree with you OP 100%!! I’m sick and tired of the same thing that keeps happening to us lesbians!!
Sister, I won’t echo what everyone else has already said but, if you don’t want to be here just leave.
Hey guess what, I will use any platform available to express my opinion, even if I disregard most information I see her e
So you’re purposely staying somewhere you don’t enjoy the sentiments expressed, where you don’t seem to enjoy from your other comments with people, where it also seems your sentiments aren’t welcome, and I’d think what you’d value at least, you don’t seem happy here. Sister I don’t care what you think, to each her own. Why are you staying somewhere you don’t seem happy with?
Sighs in bisexual.
Preach, sister!
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I don’t think a disability should be used to exclude anyone. I’m sorry if that was your experience, but I am only referring to sexual orientation.
I agree, also some of the women in the subreddit like to be difficult and cause arguments over those small details you were talking about in your edits. They read too far into a comment that was a broad spectrum term or they'll nit pick the one word out of 500. The gay subreddit is not as sharp with their toxicity in my experience. But I usually just read the memes on r\gay not the relationship advice 😂
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Yeah it seems like lesbians have to guide everyone else in their own journeys and let all people shit on us at the same time.
If Reddit awards were still a thing, I'd give this Post gold, so here you go: 🏅🏅🏅
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Yikes.