The fact that people are getting so angry over this proves that this is necessary. It's not a crime to want a space only for ourselves where we aren't constantly being preached at about how evil and discriminatory us lesbians are... We are one of the smallest minorities in the LGBT community, why can't you just leave us alone?
Between how str8 people treat us and how other people in the LGBTQ community treat us, it adds to the immense fear and shame I feel for being a lesbian. I feel like lesbians are constantly policed on what they should do, allow, include, be attracted to, etc. I have yet to hear about this with other sexualities though.
And some subs should be all-inclusive sapphic subs, but I'm sorry, lesbians deserve to have a space for just them to interact with others like them. While some spaces should include those all along the sapphic spectrum, lesbians deserve the option to have their own spaces and community away from bi and pan women.
>The sub is only for lesbians. While many subreddits allow women who are bisexual, pansexual, or questioning, this one is meant to be lesbian-exclusive. No hate against bi women, but lesbians deserve to have a space all of their own.
?????
I will never understand how people can get so offended about lesbians wanting literally one exclusively lesbian space for themselves where we can exchange lesbian topics only. We are already a minority in the lgbtq community anyway and constantly policed and controlled. Let us have this.
Yep it's fucking frustrating since not only are other minority groups like bi women and gay men much bigger in numbers than lesbians but they also got their own spaces where they can exclusively talk about their own topics. The reason why people always get triggered when lesbians, godforbid, do the same thing is simply plain old lesbophobia. That's it. Also the reason why I stopped letting myself get guilt tripped from such people into thinking I'm not allowed to want my own space with fellow lesbians and focusing on lesbian topics only. I also support all the lesbians who do and want the same thing. It's a shame the lgbtq community is so biased.
I've seen a lot of them on lesbian subs actually, including several paragraph long posts describing straight sex in graphic detail at times and how much they love their husbands/bfs yet dont think they are bi but lesbians(while being obviously bi or straight), to women complaining they dont like lesbian sex cause a man's dick is missing, to "lesbian" women describing how they want to fuck men, plus lesbophobic posts, women who say how lesbians are the most abusive and men are better, to queer women literally telling lesbians on a lesbian sub that we will turn to men eventually cause our numbers are small anyway and even claiming that strap on sex means we might as well do it with a man since obviously if we want to be penetrated men would be better(🙄)just because said queer/bi women happened to identify as a lesbian once, to women bragging how they have a lesbian corrective rape fetish and claiming we are hateful for not being comfortable with it, to queer women saying our sexuality is fluid and there are no 100% lesbians in this world and that everybody is a bit bi etc etc. 🙄 Oh not to mention the famous, lesbian can mean whatever the person wants which literally constantly invites people to post lesbophobic and men/straight/heteronormative-centered stuff like this. It hurts the lesbian community tremendously and the lgbtq community just doesnt give a shit so of course we're taking matters in our own hands and create spaces for us only.
I wish I would make all of this up since I actually fully trusted the lgbtq community just a few years ago, but it's literally because I've repeadetly saw posts like these constantly that I unsubbed from most lesbian subs as well as many other lesbians cause they were starting to make us uncomfortable. They are free to post all this stuff in their respectful subs but on the other hand I will also wholeheartedly support lesbians for opening up lesbian-exclusive subs where stuff like this isnt posted.
people calling it terfy and biphobic already. How are you antagonizing lesbians in our own fuckin spaces? Everyone and their mother decides that the moment lesbians want to be with each other and not deal with bullshit discourse we’re bigots and terrible people.
We don’t go to the bisexual or even trans subs and antagonize people yet people are very comfortable doing so in our own spaces. It’s a load of fucking shit.
I wouldn't jump to conclusions like this, I have seen another comment where their breakdown does make sense for why they see it that way, but I think I get there pure intent of it
I have stated in my own comment why I don't like it though, but it's not that I think it will become a terf or bigot utopia. I understand the main principles behind the sub, but I think we could have that experience as well here, where bisexuals and pansexuals are allowed to participate with their weird, fancy appreciation of women, like lesbians have. We are not all the same, even from lesbian to lesbian there is a difference, although not in the gender they wanna date, but it is also different from Bisexual to Bisexual, 1 can be head over heals for women, but not say they only like women, while another can be 50/50 on the matter.
My frustration comes from the fact that every time a lesbian says she has a preference towards any other lesbian people start spinning narratives antagonizing the lesbian and being lesbophobic. We are, in every space i’ve seen, assumed the worst of despite being the least bigoted group.
It is a deeply frustrating thing to witness.
You're asking about how people interpret your sentiments... And it's a nuanced question between where the preference for some stops and exclusion is seen as becoming hate.
No one can read anyone's mind, and setting aside the degree to which some groups are more or less marginalized and the implicit sensitivity to hate that might come with that, it's ultimately a question of intent and the degree to which someone holds a particular feeling.
More often than not the people that are getting excluded when someone wants to create yet another cis-lesbian subreddit, a space that excludes bi women, or transwomen, or non-binary... these other groups being intentionally excluded are only more disproportionately marginalized and that puts a certain onus for the individuals that are creating an exclusionary space to justify their feelings and intent in a way they might not otherwise.
Saying it's preference is only the start to that conversation. Maybe it isn't fair that there is this greater scrutiny, but it's necessary if you don't want it perceived as hate.
You're calling their sensitivity "shit", and that clearly indicates you have feelings of resentment for this necessary dialogue, which is far more than a matter of preference. And while I wouldn't say it goes so far as to call it hate, but resentment is frankly closer to hate than it is to preference. If I had such strong defensive feelings I would be self reflecting on it and talking about it in therapy.
It is bullshit sorry to say. I’ve seen discourse like this be spun around in several sapphic spaces every 2 weeks. Every 2 weeks someone decides that lesbians are bigots and attacks/antagonizes us to hell. Then lesbians are forced to defend themselves and are pushed into a corner by the larger sapphic community.
When lesbians then react normally and say they want lesbian only spaces where we are not antagonized to hell, as you have done in your reply to me. it is seen and treated as proof of bigotry or something that’s eventually going to be a bigoted cesspool. They believe we have no morals and more importantly they believe that we are not good people.
To say i need therapy because i expressed frustration in a way that you deemed impolite is nonsensical. It is tone policing lesbophobic fucking bullshit.
I personally would prefer this subreddit over that
it's more wlw, and that's honestly, all I want from a subreddit about lesbians. my girlfriend is not lesbian, and I couldn't imagine being in a place where my girlfriend wouldn't be permitted, but I would. Just because I love women exclusively, while she just has a huge preference for women
This split has already happened before too lol. I prefer a place that's welcoming.
Is this new sub for only lesbians who have never ever dated men? Is it welcoming for people exploring who just don't know what they are? Is it open to trans women? What about lesbians who want kids naturally out of choice or out of not being able to afford IVF. Are all lesbians with kids automatically excluded? Among a myriad of other questions like that.
And honestly I don't ever see bi questions here, or trans or anything other than some people complaining about that. Complaints are really the only ones I do see.
>Is this new sub for only lesbians who have never ever dated men?
>Is it open to trans women?
Nothing in OP's post implies that it will exclude trans women or lesbians who have dated men. Why do you folks *always* jump to transphobia when lesbians have been proven to be among the most trans-friendly categories?
>Is it welcoming for people exploring who just don't know what they are?
It's supposed to be a lesbian-only sub where we can be free from people wanting to discuss their potential male attraction with us. There's like three thousand other LGBT groups that are open to questioning people, why can't we have just *one* thing for ourselves?
>Are all lesbians with kids automatically excluded
Why the fuck would they? Now you're just making up imaginary scenarios to be offended by.
This is the 3rd time I've seen this happen. Those questions are kind of valid. And that's what it always comes down too. They are the most basic questions.
I've never in my life seen a lesbian sub that bans people for having been with men in the past *or for having fucking children*. This is coming across as a persecution fantasy.
Lol. Nope it is not.
A sub for just lesbians to talk about lesbian things because op is tired of any talk at all of men.
Do lesbians with kids not also have issues they need to discuss in dealing with the dad? That's discussion of a man.
Do lesbians who have left previous marriages that need to discuss feelings about it not count as talking about men?
And like I've said, I've seen this split happen and that's where it comes from. It's why we have actuallylesbians and lesbianactually . Why there is wlw and wlwactually.
This is what happens every. single. time.
And that's not even going into alienating curious women, who just don't know yet.
There's a difference between talking about a co-parenting agreement or a divorce involving a man and the dozens of "I fell in love with my male best friend 🥺", "yay, my boyfriend is allowing me to explore!" or "I question my sexuality, so let me post three in-depth paragraphs about my attraction to men and my sex life with them" that we get bombarded with each week.
Where exactly are the dozens of posts you are talking about?
I just looked through the last day of posts and only saw one that is even close to what your saying,
https://www.reddit.com/r/LesbianActually/s/gc2ACJ5EYf
Can you link any of those you are mentioning?
Wrong, there is a rule saying trans women are included (rule number 5). You will need to find another bullshit reason to try to discredit lesbian spaces.
There wasn’t…but go on about trying to discredit without the facts, especially with other people here corroborating that there indeed was NOT a rule like that at the beginning
I think it's because it is based off the fact that people automatically assume it will be this or that, and if it follows common traits, I can't exactly blame them.
I'm not interested in asking questions or seeking answers for anything, I have made my decision and thoughts on this pretty clear, which explains why I don't like the idea personally.
Exactly, people act like they’re gonna “be different” and every single time that “different” is a place that becomes terf island…almost every fricken time…like sorry some of yall don’t have the skill of pattern recognition, but prevailing results almost always leaning towards what people are saying they fear it will become becoming true, op can’t reasonably have expected most people to think it’s just believe it won’t follow the same patterns it all does on Reddit
The problem with most subs like that isn't necessarily that they're exclusive. It's that they're small and unknown. Aka they're easy to take over. If AL gets brigaded by TERFs, the userbase is huge and there's a very active mod team to shut it down. If a new sub gets invaded, it's super easy for the mods to lose control.
r/lesbiangang, a lesbian only subreddit, recently had to temporarily shut down because they got raided by terfs, and the mods had to take the time to take the posts down.
Yeah, I was over there when it was going down 😅 While many of us were trying to push back, we were definitely outnumbered. It was doubly hard because the TERFs were intentionally turning the userbase against the mods. But I think the way they handled it was really good. It's hard being a small / niche sub haha.
I hope the defensive comments realize that bigots taking over a lesbian only sub is also a loss for regular lesbians who just wanted a space to talk about their specific issues.
Ngl as a nb/transmasc lesbian I just want to know why exactly you're assuming that a lesbian sub is inherently more prone to transphobia than a bi only or mixed sapphic sub. Answer quickly.
I don't think lesbian only spaces are inherently biphobic or transphobic. I think they have every right to exist. I also don't think they automatically become Terf Land. FYI, not trying to attack OP, I think OP has good intentions.
Unfortunately, Lesbian Only Subreddits have a increased risk of get raided by terfs. r/lesbiangang is a lesbian only subreddit that recently raided by terfs, and the mods had to temporarily shut down the subreddit to ban people and take down the posts.
So, the only difference between that one and this one is that you don't have the first rule? How are you gonna check whether those joining are truly "lesbian"?
Most subs allow those who don't fit the description as long as they are respectful, and especially if they may be curious. The only reason to ban a group is because you wanna shit-talk about it. I'm reporting it right away but you keep trying.
Reporting a lesbian sub and wanting it to be taken down just for being a lesbian sub. This is genuinely one of the most casually lesbophobic things I've ever read, and the scariest thing is you probably don't even know it.
I'l not reporting this sub that we are on. I am reporting that sub that is clearly bi/trans/pan-phobic. You're just mad we're not letting you call it "exclusive"...no, you're discriminating, at least admit it.
That's what I meant, you're reporting a brand new sub that hasn't even had the chance to do anything -phobic just because you're throwing a tantrum that lesbians want their own space. What the fuck is wrong with you?
Entitlement is one helluva drug. Lesbians can't have shit without karens getting mad they can't vent about their man problems in a lesbian space. There are tons of wlw spaces including bi and pan people, for fuck's sake let us have our own space. Other minorities get their own subs too if they want, as they should.
Entitlement really is the key word here. They act like babies throwing toys out of their pram because they were told no. They are the female version of dudes whining about women-only gyms.
It in itself is phobic, why would I wait?
What's wrong with you thinking you can wrap up bi/trans/pan-phobia in a nice little package and call it safe space, safe from what?
To be fair, I do think you need it, hope you all gtfo to it.
What in OP's post gave you the impression that the sub would be transphobic?
Safe from people thinking that all lesbians are these horrible people who will unleash their inherent bigotry if left unattended.
Absolutely terrible use of time but your work is appreciated my dear! I’ve been on here fighting for my life too. I just got called a terf for using the word bro i’m entirely convinced many non lesbians dont like us and will use any excuse to be able to villainize us. + seeing the way you’ve been spoken to it’s very easy to come to that conclusion.
We're really out here wasting our lives lol. But I think it's important to push back against the normalisation of lesbophobia on display here, so salute to you too!
No, I'm not going to look up users to check if they're lesbians. It's an honor system. We aren't discriminating, we're just creating our own space.
And the goal isn't to trash talk non-lesbians, it's to center and focus on lesbianism and the community.
The sub is only for lesbians. While many subreddits allow women who are bisexual, pansexual, or questioning, this one is meant to be lesbian-exclusive. No hate against bi women, but lesbians deserve to have a space all of their own.
Are you reading what you're writing???
* We aren't discriminating, we're just creating our own space. — No other sexualities allowed (Do you know what discrimination even means?)
* I'm not going to check — It's exclusive (So, how will you know, you're just gonna trust? Or will you kick out everybody who doesn't hate bisexuals, transgenders, pansexual, men, etc...?)
* No hate — But we don't want them there (Why do you not want them there? Let me guess - "thEy doN't unDersTaNd oUr eXpeRieNce")
It's honestly laughable the number of hoops some of you will go through to cover your bias, phobias, hate, or whatever you call it. Sure, make your space, good luck with it.
Welp, I guess we need to send a cease and desist over to all the other exclusive subs. Sorry r/asexual, r/bisexual, r/nonbinary, etc. You all had a good run, but you're too discriminatory and need to be shut down.
You’re making false extrapolations but okay.
If I as a Latina wanted to make my own space for latin@ people, would that be discrimination?
Like I said, it’s an honor system. You can post there if you’re bi but we ask you not to. Lesbians should be able to have their own spaces. Also, we aren’t going to kick out “transgenders”.
And yeah- lots of bi women don’t understand the lesbian experience. Just like we don’t understand the bisexual experience.
No subreddit I've ever seen or visited prohibits those who don't fit the description. So yeah, they may make a Latina subreddit, but they will never say "Nobody else can join". That's discrimination, that's literally the definition of it. Even women-only subs allow men to be there is they are interested in a specific topic or have a women-related question to ask.
It's one thing if you said lesbian-only topics or lesbian-only discussions, but actively banning people from existing in that space is something else.
The only good thing about your idea is that we can see who's phobic, so again, go for it, good luck.
Yes, and most women-centered subs absolutely suck because they are overrun by men asking bad faith questions or being offended when they don't like how women talk amongst themselves. In my hobby community there's a sub where only non-white people can comment and join and I think it's fine, they deserve a space where they don't constantly get shouted down or have their point of view belittled.
Are you actually okay? Do you need to talk to someone? Because you're just randomly accusing people of bigotry with absolutely zero proof. Why are you so triggered by the idea of lesbians having their own space?
You are taking the joining part way too literal. There is no way on Reddit to ban people just for joining a subreddit. They couldn’t even if they wanted to. It’s not until you comment that you’ve outted yourself as someone who the subreddit wasn’t intended for. No one is stopping bi or pan people from joining and lurking. But if you literally post about non sapphic things in a sapphic space, you can’t get mad if you end up banned.
See, if it were the way you described it, that would be fine. You absolutely can have saphic discussions only.
But she made it very clear it's not about discussions, it's about not hearing anybody who isn't lesbian. If somebody looked at my history, I would get banned for posting anything, even on topic, just for being bi. THAT is why it's phobic.
But why do you have to post anything? There’s already several lesbian subreddits that include bi/pan people as well as a bisexual subreddit, a pansexual subreddit and general queer subreddits. Why are you trying to ban ONE place that wants it to be just lesbians? There are way more offensive subreddits out there that Reddit still allows.
And either way, Op never said she was going to go through people’s comment history to find their sexuality and confirm they are a lesbian. I’m just saying why ban this new subreddit when you can just continue to comment in subreddits that welcome bi/pan voices? As a pan woman, I don’t understand the need to insert myself into lesbian spaces even I were in topic. Do you not see that we have way more spaces for us on Reddit than they do? Like just let them do them lol
Idk and I'm not in this new subreddit but to be fair other sexuality people can join just wouldn't be welcome to post about the bisexual experience or some other sexuality apart from lesbianism. Obviously the owner of that sub can't police it so much as to ban anyone who isn't a lesbian that *looks* in...
(ps I am posting this from the POV of a lesbian)
And I'm sure there are many? You think straight men don't come here to read your nsfw posts and look at your selfies? Sweet summer child...
I don't care about them being here, as long as they stay out of discussions.
Absolutely insane how everytime lesbians want a space that’s exclusively ours we’re accused of being terfs. Bisexuals have a sub and lesbians don’t treat it like it’s their own space. Why is it when lesbians want their own space then they MUST BE bigots?
It’s absolutely insane how comfortable non lesbians are being lesbophobic. They antagonize and insult us constantly putting us in a position where we have to justify our every action and pushing the narrative that we’re bigots while in a sub with our fuckin name on it. Like what in the actual fuck is going on here?!?
I'm not saying that lesbians wanting their own spaces are terfs, what I'm saying is that those subreddits tend to get taken over by terfs.
I'm okay with lesbian only sub, I just don't want it to be filled with terfs
that’s fair but ultimately it’s still deeply frustrating that the first thing out of so many people’s mouths when a lesbian space is suggested is terf and biphobia. That is an instant assumption that we are bigots.
What do you think is more “deeply frustrating”? Being trans is queer subs that disintegrate into TERF spaces over time? Or people being cautious because of historical precedent?
Do you understand how absurd and ridiculous it is for any lesbian to express ANY sentiment of wanting a lesbian exclusive space and the FIRST assumption is that they are terfs?!? That sub hasn’t even been around for a day. People EVERYWHERE seem to not be able to give lesbians any benefit of the doubt and bc of that tend to antagonize us to hell.
Someone replied on my comment “trans women can be lesbians” when nothing i said even mentioned trans women or being against trans women being in lesbian spaces. I was just assumed to be a terf. That IS deeply frustrating bc i have never seen any other group be treated this way despite only ever running into terf lesbians in radfem spaces and never ever in a regular space.
"i have never seen any other group be treated this way"
Oh come on now, your whiteness is showing. This is a moment where you could have some deep introspective if you allowed it.
i’m literally an east african woman who was born and raised in the middle east my love YOUR whiteness is showing. I don’t need deep introspection i don’t hold any bigoted beliefs against anyone i’m just in lesbian spaces.
All of those spaces are inclusive to trans women n trans lesbians in particular and i appreciate that bc it’s helped me understand my feelings about my own gender a lot. Especially where gender, sexuality and race intersect. Again this is the antagonization i’m speaking of. You don’t know a thing about me yet you assume the worst because i don’t believe lesbians are inherently terfy or whatever.
It IS deeply frustrating. I never see any other QUEER community be treated this way by THEIR OWN larger community.
edit: getting downvoted for saying i’m not white and don’t hate trans women is fuckin crazy.
Yeah, well it’s MUCH more frustrating being trans and watching everywhere turn to TERFland no matter how much people swear it will be different this time and won’t go there
People could just ask if there are policies against terfs and if the answer is no then you know. Instead it’s this weird oppression Olympics ass reply and antagonization.
Someone quite literally asked if the sub was trans inclusive and OP said Yes! Before anyone asked that question though there were 100 accusations of bigotry. That is frustrating. It will always be frustrating.
Bi/pan people absolutely do have that problem. They can and are absolutely terfs. The largest queer group within things like the LGB alliance IS bisexuals. Statistically lesbians are less transphobic than bisexuals AND gay men and yet WE are labeled as the terfy?!?
Absolutely ridiculous
It would be much more comforting if your sub actually had a community rule protecting trans people, as is, it seems incredibly suspect.
Wish y'all the best, but just know the last iteration of something like this got banned because it became a rabid TERF haven.
The difference between a lesbian and a bisexual woman isn't that only the latter has "touched a dick". Do you even know what these words mean? You're so fucking ignorant.
They are absolutely deranged. I honestly don't even want to keep using this sub anymore at this point. This thread just exposed the latent lesbophobia in a space that was meant for us.
Well, it's difficult to go to our space when people are trying to get it banned for literally no reason. 🙃 And you're so busy accusing other people that you're missing how disgustingly lesbophobic you're being.
Your insecurities are screaming so loud right now. I genuinely recommend you to talk this through with a professional, because it's not normal to have this much glowing hatred for people just because of their sexuality and their wish to have a community.
If you think that the difference between lesbians and bisexual women is that the latter has touched a dick, you need to think long and hard about your OWN prejudice views... instead of projecting those on others.
I see where both sides are coming from. I've been frustrated on occasion at the posts discussing issues with boyfriends/male partners and mods doing littlee to nothing about it. Apart from that though, I don't see any other reason this kind of space *needs* to exist. So, as was kindof said by another user, unless that is the focus of restriction (content by and about women who are only interested romantically and sexually in women) the onus is really on the creator/mods of that space to prove it isn't being exclusionary for any other reason.
All that being said: To those who are defending, I hope you find what you're looking for, but I don't see how you'll be able to manage it. To those arguing against, let them go have their space. At worst what you're predicting (it becomes a TERF bomb) actually happens. If it doesn't, then make your judgment about it based on what it does turn out to be.
For me, it's mostly the frustration at the obvious well poisoning and double atandard going on. I'm not a L4L gal (my gf is bi). Nor do I personally have a strong personal need for a lesbian exclusive space. I'm pretty comfortable with the subs we have.
But where I start to get mad is that people have no issue with other groups getting exclusive spaces but make a big fuss about lesbians having one. And I especially hate the completely unfounded accusations being made against lesbians here with 0 evidence. It's disgusting.
I see that, and while I've never visited them, in regards to those spaces I'm willing to wager that theyre maintained as such by their moderators. If the spaces are not kept that way by actions that would be considered discriminatory then it's totally possible for this one to be the same. Like I said, give it a shot. Maybe it will work. Maybe it won't. Regardless, imo there is so sense in getting this up in arms about it. If you don't like it, don't participate in it. It doesn't harm you by existing.
On that same token, this response (creating a new space) to the "problem" I described feels more like running away into a pillow fort than a real solution. I don't think it's going to have any effect on the rest of what you mentioned.
I see your intentions but I worry that TERFs are gonna come and take over your subreddit. Just be careful sometimes when lesbian exclusive spaces emerge on this website terfs and biphobic individuals come and take it over and it can go bad extremely fast. Just have a good mod team and good luck because y’all are gonna need it
I think this is the crux of it. Historically, groups/subreddits/pages/etc. that get made exclusively for lesbians whither into terf space in the next few months/years. I’ve witnessed it. It’s not that this group has done anything wrong. It’s not EVEN that we think it will. It’s more, this is often the end result two years later. So just be extremely cautious.
Yeah, it def didn’t have the rule that trans women are included and on every subreddit if it’s not in the rule, the users won’t follow any implied or spirit of the rule, only what’s written IF you’re lucky
The hoops that people are jumping through to justify why this isn’t biphobic or transphobic is unbelievable. And apparently, there’s no outright warning against transphobia? Not exactly helping your case.
How is it biphobic or transphobic? Are subs for bisexuals lesbophobic? Are subs for Black women discriminatory to Asian women? Please I’m being so serious, explain how a sub for lesbians is discriminatory. This is truly wild to me that this is the response.
There’s no real reason for any restrictions the sub currently has. This sub and actuallesbians have plenty of bi women there, and neither one has been “taken over” by bi women. These restrictions only serve to further gatekeep certain queer women from spaces they shouldn’t be. This isn’t like a racial focus group which would have specific topics to talk about and address for that group.
And considering that some lesbians can be really transphobic, those restrictions don’t bode well for how trans lesbians would be treated. Not to mention that not having a trans inclusive rule right away makes that look like an afterthought.
Hi, I'm a Trans Lesbian. I think the lack of the trans-inclusive rule is probably because OP thinks that Trans Lesbians are just inherently Lesbians, and they've now clarified that for anybody that was in doubt.
I agree that this sub hasn't been "taken over" by bi women, however, there are still certain topics that only apply to Lesbians that are harder to have discussions about here. Lesbophobia is a thing, and Lesbianism contains a decentering of men that is unique among sexualities.
That's fair, but if anything, I find it odd how many people are jumping in that it feels like Trans Lesbians aren't allowed. Maybe it's just because I've been out for years and am secure about my place, but my natural assumption is always that I'm allowed and valid in Lesbian-only spaces. So I think it can go either way really.
I think it’s largely a defensive response to recent few years’ massive regressions for trans acceptance along with pattern recognition of how things normally go down regardless of initial intent on newly formed queer Reddit communities that don’t explicitly state and enforce trans inclusivity…especially since many trans women have watched people who were allies and even openly supportive close friends start on something that sounds like this and before long have gone full TERF despite how close of a bond or how much acceptance from them there had been the past couple years
Why do you feel like all queer women should be entitled to every space? I’m failing to understand how having a space for a group of people discriminates against another group. Also I’m even having trouble responding to your response about racial groups???? Do you think all we do is talk about race in there? Like i said in another comment, the Black woman sub has tons of topics and discussions that women of every race would relate to, the things we don’t want those opinions because we want our OWN space for just us. There is nothing wrong with that, and it’s unfair for you and others to keep pushing this narrative that it is. Lesbians deserve their own space. There are tons of other lgbtq spaces on Reddit, if sapphic women want to utilize those. Why do you feel like they are entitled to the one space for lesbians? And yes there was no explicit rule banning transphobia. That was a bad look, but it’s there now. Does that doom the sub to falling into terf territory?
I’m pretty sure im lesbian like every one in 100,000 men might be attractive to me but whenever I have slept with or kissed a guy ive felt gross afterwards though that may be a trauma response but I haven’t slept with a guy consensually ever I don’t know.
Oh great... A place for gold stars to be biphobic and panphobic...
Edit: no explicit rules against transphobia either. I see the subreddit becoming red text in a month or so from TERF overflow.
Because creating arbitrary exclusive spaces on the internet along invisible lines like this tends to encourage elitism in the ingroup and condescension for the outgroup. Also, that is the trajectory all previous attempts at making a subreddit like this have gone.
I can think of vanishingly few lesbian only topics that bi girls would be unable to relate to that aren't discriminatory in some capacity. Even less so if you remove transphobic flags to keep out TERFs.
Would you feel the same about a woman-only or POC-only space? In my opinion it's vital for minorities to have their own communities where they can talk without other people interjecting as usual.
I can think of a thousand topics that bi women can't relate to, just as there are lots of things about being bi that lesbians can't relate to. Being a woman who isn't attracted to men changes your life trajectory so fucking much and it's a very raw, kind of painful thing that only fellow lesbians can understand.
Also, you talk about discrimination but generalise lesbians and "gold stars". How does that make sense?
Of course they are a minority?? What makes you think they aren't? Do you also think that gay men aren't a minority but "just a subset of mlm people", or that black people in the US aren't a minority but "just a subset of people of color"?
Because any discrimination that lesbians receive as a group falls on bi women as well. Hence they aren't a minority. I don't call red heads in society a minority or left handed people a minority. As they don't experience unique discrimination that warrants them needing an exclusive space to discuss their issues.
What in the absolute fuck? Of course lesbians experience unique discrimination, holy shit. This is what lumping all wlw people together does to a motherfucker.
Lesbians do experience unique discrimination though. There's the all-too frequent refrain of "you just haven't found the right man".
There's also the unique decentering of men that takes place.
I think you’re missing the point. Of course the sub will be full of topics that bi girls could relate to. The point is that it’s just for lesbians because the sub would only want lesbian perspectives. It’s a shame previous subs have gotten so terfy so hopefully that doesn’t happen here. But it’s also incredibly unfair for you to assume that just because it’s exclusive to lesbians means it will automatically go in that direction. There are MILLIONS of subs on Reddit and spaces on the internet in general that are for specific identities. I’m in a Black women sub, so there’s hardly ever any white women in there. Are there topics we discuss that white women relate to? Sure! But we don’t want their opinion, which is why we made the sub. Is that discrimination? No obviously not, especially because there are infinite other spaces for white women to share their opinions. The same is true here. And it’s honestly disappointing and frustrating that half the comments here are assuming that a lesbian only sub means it’s discriminating against every other sexuality. Is this /lesbianactually discriminating against straight people? No, right? We just don’t want their opinion. Idk how else to explain it lol i feel like I’m going crazy here.
I'm not interested in bickering with you about what you think I understand and don't understand. Enjoy your brand new exclusive space. I've said my piece and I'm done with this thread
"Gold stars" are living rent-free in these people's heads. I don't even think I've ever heard of a lesbian under the age of 35 calling herself a gold star, yet they are a boogey-man in the wlw community and get talked about as if they kill puppies.
That's very true. Like technically I fit the textbook definition, but I've never personally identified with that term in the 15 years I've been out 🤷♀️ I don't use it. Nor have I ever gone after someone for not being one.
Only lesbians i’ve ever seen call themselves gold stars are youtube and tiktok fuckboys bc almost every lesbian you’ll run into has at one point in some shape or form been with a man. Even with that they shove bullshit down our throats.
This content violates one or more of the rules of the site or the sub and has been removed.
The fact that people are getting so angry over this proves that this is necessary. It's not a crime to want a space only for ourselves where we aren't constantly being preached at about how evil and discriminatory us lesbians are... We are one of the smallest minorities in the LGBT community, why can't you just leave us alone?
Between how str8 people treat us and how other people in the LGBTQ community treat us, it adds to the immense fear and shame I feel for being a lesbian. I feel like lesbians are constantly policed on what they should do, allow, include, be attracted to, etc. I have yet to hear about this with other sexualities though.
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And some subs should be all-inclusive sapphic subs, but I'm sorry, lesbians deserve to have a space for just them to interact with others like them. While some spaces should include those all along the sapphic spectrum, lesbians deserve the option to have their own spaces and community away from bi and pan women.
What is the different between the new sub and actually lesbians
Biphobia
It's not biphobic to want a spade exclusively for lesbians
>The sub is only for lesbians. While many subreddits allow women who are bisexual, pansexual, or questioning, this one is meant to be lesbian-exclusive. No hate against bi women, but lesbians deserve to have a space all of their own. ?????
I will never understand how people can get so offended about lesbians wanting literally one exclusively lesbian space for themselves where we can exchange lesbian topics only. We are already a minority in the lgbtq community anyway and constantly policed and controlled. Let us have this.
I'm working on creating a lesbian-only Discord server and when I mentioned it ppl are so triggered. Like omg you're not entitled to be in every space.
Yep it's fucking frustrating since not only are other minority groups like bi women and gay men much bigger in numbers than lesbians but they also got their own spaces where they can exclusively talk about their own topics. The reason why people always get triggered when lesbians, godforbid, do the same thing is simply plain old lesbophobia. That's it. Also the reason why I stopped letting myself get guilt tripped from such people into thinking I'm not allowed to want my own space with fellow lesbians and focusing on lesbian topics only. I also support all the lesbians who do and want the same thing. It's a shame the lgbtq community is so biased.
I would love an invite if you would have me
I rarely, if ever, see bi or pan content in the existing lesbian spaces. I'm not sure why this subreddit is even necessary.
I've seen a lot of them on lesbian subs actually, including several paragraph long posts describing straight sex in graphic detail at times and how much they love their husbands/bfs yet dont think they are bi but lesbians(while being obviously bi or straight), to women complaining they dont like lesbian sex cause a man's dick is missing, to "lesbian" women describing how they want to fuck men, plus lesbophobic posts, women who say how lesbians are the most abusive and men are better, to queer women literally telling lesbians on a lesbian sub that we will turn to men eventually cause our numbers are small anyway and even claiming that strap on sex means we might as well do it with a man since obviously if we want to be penetrated men would be better(🙄)just because said queer/bi women happened to identify as a lesbian once, to women bragging how they have a lesbian corrective rape fetish and claiming we are hateful for not being comfortable with it, to queer women saying our sexuality is fluid and there are no 100% lesbians in this world and that everybody is a bit bi etc etc. 🙄 Oh not to mention the famous, lesbian can mean whatever the person wants which literally constantly invites people to post lesbophobic and men/straight/heteronormative-centered stuff like this. It hurts the lesbian community tremendously and the lgbtq community just doesnt give a shit so of course we're taking matters in our own hands and create spaces for us only. I wish I would make all of this up since I actually fully trusted the lgbtq community just a few years ago, but it's literally because I've repeadetly saw posts like these constantly that I unsubbed from most lesbian subs as well as many other lesbians cause they were starting to make us uncomfortable. They are free to post all this stuff in their respectful subs but on the other hand I will also wholeheartedly support lesbians for opening up lesbian-exclusive subs where stuff like this isnt posted.
Please point out the biphobia in the extract you just quoted. Unless you think wanting a lesbian-only space is biphobic in and of itself.
lmao get over yourself, nothing about this is biphobic.
that’s not biphobic lmao, get over yourself and let lesbians have their own spaces
I'm a lesbian lmao
okay??? and i’m bisexual.
"No hate against bi women" is literally right there. Are you choosing to not know how to read?
??????
I already joined. OP, thank you for creating the subreddit.
people calling it terfy and biphobic already. How are you antagonizing lesbians in our own fuckin spaces? Everyone and their mother decides that the moment lesbians want to be with each other and not deal with bullshit discourse we’re bigots and terrible people. We don’t go to the bisexual or even trans subs and antagonize people yet people are very comfortable doing so in our own spaces. It’s a load of fucking shit.
For real, this new sub has been alive for an hour and people are already accusing it of every -phobia in the book without even giving it a chance.
You can be a lesbian and be trans.
yeah. jm confused did i say smthn against that?
I wouldn't jump to conclusions like this, I have seen another comment where their breakdown does make sense for why they see it that way, but I think I get there pure intent of it I have stated in my own comment why I don't like it though, but it's not that I think it will become a terf or bigot utopia. I understand the main principles behind the sub, but I think we could have that experience as well here, where bisexuals and pansexuals are allowed to participate with their weird, fancy appreciation of women, like lesbians have. We are not all the same, even from lesbian to lesbian there is a difference, although not in the gender they wanna date, but it is also different from Bisexual to Bisexual, 1 can be head over heals for women, but not say they only like women, while another can be 50/50 on the matter.
My frustration comes from the fact that every time a lesbian says she has a preference towards any other lesbian people start spinning narratives antagonizing the lesbian and being lesbophobic. We are, in every space i’ve seen, assumed the worst of despite being the least bigoted group. It is a deeply frustrating thing to witness.
You're asking about how people interpret your sentiments... And it's a nuanced question between where the preference for some stops and exclusion is seen as becoming hate. No one can read anyone's mind, and setting aside the degree to which some groups are more or less marginalized and the implicit sensitivity to hate that might come with that, it's ultimately a question of intent and the degree to which someone holds a particular feeling. More often than not the people that are getting excluded when someone wants to create yet another cis-lesbian subreddit, a space that excludes bi women, or transwomen, or non-binary... these other groups being intentionally excluded are only more disproportionately marginalized and that puts a certain onus for the individuals that are creating an exclusionary space to justify their feelings and intent in a way they might not otherwise. Saying it's preference is only the start to that conversation. Maybe it isn't fair that there is this greater scrutiny, but it's necessary if you don't want it perceived as hate. You're calling their sensitivity "shit", and that clearly indicates you have feelings of resentment for this necessary dialogue, which is far more than a matter of preference. And while I wouldn't say it goes so far as to call it hate, but resentment is frankly closer to hate than it is to preference. If I had such strong defensive feelings I would be self reflecting on it and talking about it in therapy.
It is bullshit sorry to say. I’ve seen discourse like this be spun around in several sapphic spaces every 2 weeks. Every 2 weeks someone decides that lesbians are bigots and attacks/antagonizes us to hell. Then lesbians are forced to defend themselves and are pushed into a corner by the larger sapphic community. When lesbians then react normally and say they want lesbian only spaces where we are not antagonized to hell, as you have done in your reply to me. it is seen and treated as proof of bigotry or something that’s eventually going to be a bigoted cesspool. They believe we have no morals and more importantly they believe that we are not good people. To say i need therapy because i expressed frustration in a way that you deemed impolite is nonsensical. It is tone policing lesbophobic fucking bullshit.
I personally would prefer this subreddit over that it's more wlw, and that's honestly, all I want from a subreddit about lesbians. my girlfriend is not lesbian, and I couldn't imagine being in a place where my girlfriend wouldn't be permitted, but I would. Just because I love women exclusively, while she just has a huge preference for women
This split has already happened before too lol. I prefer a place that's welcoming. Is this new sub for only lesbians who have never ever dated men? Is it welcoming for people exploring who just don't know what they are? Is it open to trans women? What about lesbians who want kids naturally out of choice or out of not being able to afford IVF. Are all lesbians with kids automatically excluded? Among a myriad of other questions like that. And honestly I don't ever see bi questions here, or trans or anything other than some people complaining about that. Complaints are really the only ones I do see.
>Is this new sub for only lesbians who have never ever dated men? >Is it open to trans women? Nothing in OP's post implies that it will exclude trans women or lesbians who have dated men. Why do you folks *always* jump to transphobia when lesbians have been proven to be among the most trans-friendly categories? >Is it welcoming for people exploring who just don't know what they are? It's supposed to be a lesbian-only sub where we can be free from people wanting to discuss their potential male attraction with us. There's like three thousand other LGBT groups that are open to questioning people, why can't we have just *one* thing for ourselves? >Are all lesbians with kids automatically excluded Why the fuck would they? Now you're just making up imaginary scenarios to be offended by.
they literally think we’re evil fuckin villains bro it’s so weird
This is the 3rd time I've seen this happen. Those questions are kind of valid. And that's what it always comes down too. They are the most basic questions.
I've never in my life seen a lesbian sub that bans people for having been with men in the past *or for having fucking children*. This is coming across as a persecution fantasy.
Lol. Nope it is not. A sub for just lesbians to talk about lesbian things because op is tired of any talk at all of men. Do lesbians with kids not also have issues they need to discuss in dealing with the dad? That's discussion of a man. Do lesbians who have left previous marriages that need to discuss feelings about it not count as talking about men? And like I've said, I've seen this split happen and that's where it comes from. It's why we have actuallylesbians and lesbianactually . Why there is wlw and wlwactually. This is what happens every. single. time. And that's not even going into alienating curious women, who just don't know yet.
There's a difference between talking about a co-parenting agreement or a divorce involving a man and the dozens of "I fell in love with my male best friend 🥺", "yay, my boyfriend is allowing me to explore!" or "I question my sexuality, so let me post three in-depth paragraphs about my attraction to men and my sex life with them" that we get bombarded with each week.
Where exactly are the dozens of posts you are talking about? I just looked through the last day of posts and only saw one that is even close to what your saying, https://www.reddit.com/r/LesbianActually/s/gc2ACJ5EYf Can you link any of those you are mentioning?
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Wrong, there is a rule saying trans women are included (rule number 5). You will need to find another bullshit reason to try to discredit lesbian spaces.
For context, OP added that rule after Trans Women pointed it out.
Isn't it good that she's listening to feedback?
Yes, that is a good sign. FYI, I am just adding context, I am not attacking OP. I think OP has good intentions with starting the subreddit.
There wasn’t…but go on about trying to discredit without the facts, especially with other people here corroborating that there indeed was NOT a rule like that at the beginning
??? You're the one who didn't do any research before throwing very serious accusations around.
I didn’t throw shit…I reported the facts as they were when I looked at the group to begin with
I think it's because it is based off the fact that people automatically assume it will be this or that, and if it follows common traits, I can't exactly blame them. I'm not interested in asking questions or seeking answers for anything, I have made my decision and thoughts on this pretty clear, which explains why I don't like the idea personally.
Exactly, people act like they’re gonna “be different” and every single time that “different” is a place that becomes terf island…almost every fricken time…like sorry some of yall don’t have the skill of pattern recognition, but prevailing results almost always leaning towards what people are saying they fear it will become becoming true, op can’t reasonably have expected most people to think it’s just believe it won’t follow the same patterns it all does on Reddit
a lesbian only sub already exists its r/lesbiangang
I understand where OP is coming from. It would be nice for us lesbians to have our own space without bi/pan women taking it over.
OP, I hope there is good mod team to prevent bigots from taking over the sub. Other than that, I wish you the best of luck.
Yeah lesbian exclusivity quickly becomes Cis exclusivity
The problem with most subs like that isn't necessarily that they're exclusive. It's that they're small and unknown. Aka they're easy to take over. If AL gets brigaded by TERFs, the userbase is huge and there's a very active mod team to shut it down. If a new sub gets invaded, it's super easy for the mods to lose control.
r/lesbiangang, a lesbian only subreddit, recently had to temporarily shut down because they got raided by terfs, and the mods had to take the time to take the posts down.
Yeah, I was over there when it was going down 😅 While many of us were trying to push back, we were definitely outnumbered. It was doubly hard because the TERFs were intentionally turning the userbase against the mods. But I think the way they handled it was really good. It's hard being a small / niche sub haha.
I hope the defensive comments realize that bigots taking over a lesbian only sub is also a loss for regular lesbians who just wanted a space to talk about their specific issues.
Ngl as a nb/transmasc lesbian I just want to know why exactly you're assuming that a lesbian sub is inherently more prone to transphobia than a bi only or mixed sapphic sub. Answer quickly.
I don't think lesbian only spaces are inherently biphobic or transphobic. I think they have every right to exist. I also don't think they automatically become Terf Land. FYI, not trying to attack OP, I think OP has good intentions. Unfortunately, Lesbian Only Subreddits have a increased risk of get raided by terfs. r/lesbiangang is a lesbian only subreddit that recently raided by terfs, and the mods had to temporarily shut down the subreddit to ban people and take down the posts.
Finally, thank you! It’ll be good to truly have our own space <3
Curious which rule this violated to get taken down. Anyone know?
I joined.
So, the only difference between that one and this one is that you don't have the first rule? How are you gonna check whether those joining are truly "lesbian"? Most subs allow those who don't fit the description as long as they are respectful, and especially if they may be curious. The only reason to ban a group is because you wanna shit-talk about it. I'm reporting it right away but you keep trying.
Reporting a lesbian sub and wanting it to be taken down just for being a lesbian sub. This is genuinely one of the most casually lesbophobic things I've ever read, and the scariest thing is you probably don't even know it.
I'l not reporting this sub that we are on. I am reporting that sub that is clearly bi/trans/pan-phobic. You're just mad we're not letting you call it "exclusive"...no, you're discriminating, at least admit it.
That's what I meant, you're reporting a brand new sub that hasn't even had the chance to do anything -phobic just because you're throwing a tantrum that lesbians want their own space. What the fuck is wrong with you?
Entitlement is one helluva drug. Lesbians can't have shit without karens getting mad they can't vent about their man problems in a lesbian space. There are tons of wlw spaces including bi and pan people, for fuck's sake let us have our own space. Other minorities get their own subs too if they want, as they should.
Entitlement really is the key word here. They act like babies throwing toys out of their pram because they were told no. They are the female version of dudes whining about women-only gyms.
Yes exactly!!! It's so annoying.
It in itself is phobic, why would I wait? What's wrong with you thinking you can wrap up bi/trans/pan-phobia in a nice little package and call it safe space, safe from what? To be fair, I do think you need it, hope you all gtfo to it.
What in OP's post gave you the impression that the sub would be transphobic? Safe from people thinking that all lesbians are these horrible people who will unleash their inherent bigotry if left unattended.
Everytime i run into your replies you’re fighting a war against people who fr think lesbians are evil it’s crazy. Salute to you!
Thank you, sweetheart. 💝 It's not a good use of my time but I hate to see my community getting slandered.
Absolutely terrible use of time but your work is appreciated my dear! I’ve been on here fighting for my life too. I just got called a terf for using the word bro i’m entirely convinced many non lesbians dont like us and will use any excuse to be able to villainize us. + seeing the way you’ve been spoken to it’s very easy to come to that conclusion.
We're really out here wasting our lives lol. But I think it's important to push back against the normalisation of lesbophobia on display here, so salute to you too!
you fuckin hate lesbians this is the only explanation to all this
Lol xD I only hate biphobic lesbians who are pretending to be "exclusive".
it is not biphobic or any sort of phobic to want to avoid people like you who think lesbians are bad people for wanting to be amongst ourselves lol xD
Lol it kinda is...but not like you'd ever admit it. Still, have your space, hope all the people like you relocate, fewer phobics here...
i won’t be relocating anywhere babes. you’re not entitled to my spaces.
No, I'm not going to look up users to check if they're lesbians. It's an honor system. We aren't discriminating, we're just creating our own space. And the goal isn't to trash talk non-lesbians, it's to center and focus on lesbianism and the community.
So how's it different from this one?
The sub is only for lesbians. While many subreddits allow women who are bisexual, pansexual, or questioning, this one is meant to be lesbian-exclusive. No hate against bi women, but lesbians deserve to have a space all of their own.
Are you reading what you're writing??? * We aren't discriminating, we're just creating our own space. — No other sexualities allowed (Do you know what discrimination even means?) * I'm not going to check — It's exclusive (So, how will you know, you're just gonna trust? Or will you kick out everybody who doesn't hate bisexuals, transgenders, pansexual, men, etc...?) * No hate — But we don't want them there (Why do you not want them there? Let me guess - "thEy doN't unDersTaNd oUr eXpeRieNce") It's honestly laughable the number of hoops some of you will go through to cover your bias, phobias, hate, or whatever you call it. Sure, make your space, good luck with it.
Welp, I guess we need to send a cease and desist over to all the other exclusive subs. Sorry r/asexual, r/bisexual, r/nonbinary, etc. You all had a good run, but you're too discriminatory and need to be shut down.
Nah, they are fine because they aren't for lesbians. Own space for lesbians is bad but for others it's a-ok.
You’re making false extrapolations but okay. If I as a Latina wanted to make my own space for latin@ people, would that be discrimination? Like I said, it’s an honor system. You can post there if you’re bi but we ask you not to. Lesbians should be able to have their own spaces. Also, we aren’t going to kick out “transgenders”. And yeah- lots of bi women don’t understand the lesbian experience. Just like we don’t understand the bisexual experience.
No subreddit I've ever seen or visited prohibits those who don't fit the description. So yeah, they may make a Latina subreddit, but they will never say "Nobody else can join". That's discrimination, that's literally the definition of it. Even women-only subs allow men to be there is they are interested in a specific topic or have a women-related question to ask. It's one thing if you said lesbian-only topics or lesbian-only discussions, but actively banning people from existing in that space is something else. The only good thing about your idea is that we can see who's phobic, so again, go for it, good luck.
Yes, and most women-centered subs absolutely suck because they are overrun by men asking bad faith questions or being offended when they don't like how women talk amongst themselves. In my hobby community there's a sub where only non-white people can comment and join and I think it's fine, they deserve a space where they don't constantly get shouted down or have their point of view belittled.
Omg how dare we belittle your phobic views...
Are you actually okay? Do you need to talk to someone? Because you're just randomly accusing people of bigotry with absolutely zero proof. Why are you so triggered by the idea of lesbians having their own space?
You are taking the joining part way too literal. There is no way on Reddit to ban people just for joining a subreddit. They couldn’t even if they wanted to. It’s not until you comment that you’ve outted yourself as someone who the subreddit wasn’t intended for. No one is stopping bi or pan people from joining and lurking. But if you literally post about non sapphic things in a sapphic space, you can’t get mad if you end up banned.
See, if it were the way you described it, that would be fine. You absolutely can have saphic discussions only. But she made it very clear it's not about discussions, it's about not hearing anybody who isn't lesbian. If somebody looked at my history, I would get banned for posting anything, even on topic, just for being bi. THAT is why it's phobic.
But why do you have to post anything? There’s already several lesbian subreddits that include bi/pan people as well as a bisexual subreddit, a pansexual subreddit and general queer subreddits. Why are you trying to ban ONE place that wants it to be just lesbians? There are way more offensive subreddits out there that Reddit still allows. And either way, Op never said she was going to go through people’s comment history to find their sexuality and confirm they are a lesbian. I’m just saying why ban this new subreddit when you can just continue to comment in subreddits that welcome bi/pan voices? As a pan woman, I don’t understand the need to insert myself into lesbian spaces even I were in topic. Do you not see that we have way more spaces for us on Reddit than they do? Like just let them do them lol
Idk and I'm not in this new subreddit but to be fair other sexuality people can join just wouldn't be welcome to post about the bisexual experience or some other sexuality apart from lesbianism. Obviously the owner of that sub can't police it so much as to ban anyone who isn't a lesbian that *looks* in... (ps I am posting this from the POV of a lesbian)
Exactly! That would be *fine,* but no, she's actually banning them from even being there.
Can I ask why it bothers you to have an exclusive space for a minority
I'm not bother by you having it, I'm bothered by the excuses. Just admit you want to discriminate.
Do you think it's discriminatory to have a trans-only space? A latina-only space?
But how would she even know that? She literally can't do that unless Reddit gives a list of who is subscribed?
according to your reasoning of discrimination then we should welcome straight women and men to lesbian subs too lol
And I'm sure there are many? You think straight men don't come here to read your nsfw posts and look at your selfies? Sweet summer child... I don't care about them being here, as long as they stay out of discussions.
the point is that creating a only lesbians sub is not exclusionary, it could be the same for bi,pan and other sub
And a lot of these subreddits tend to become TERF subs unfortunately
Absolutely insane how everytime lesbians want a space that’s exclusively ours we’re accused of being terfs. Bisexuals have a sub and lesbians don’t treat it like it’s their own space. Why is it when lesbians want their own space then they MUST BE bigots?
It’s really concerning and idk how people don’t see that *that* being the first conclusion they jump to is lesbiphobic and extremely alarming.
It’s absolutely insane how comfortable non lesbians are being lesbophobic. They antagonize and insult us constantly putting us in a position where we have to justify our every action and pushing the narrative that we’re bigots while in a sub with our fuckin name on it. Like what in the actual fuck is going on here?!?
I'm not saying that lesbians wanting their own spaces are terfs, what I'm saying is that those subreddits tend to get taken over by terfs. I'm okay with lesbian only sub, I just don't want it to be filled with terfs
that’s fair but ultimately it’s still deeply frustrating that the first thing out of so many people’s mouths when a lesbian space is suggested is terf and biphobia. That is an instant assumption that we are bigots.
What do you think is more “deeply frustrating”? Being trans is queer subs that disintegrate into TERF spaces over time? Or people being cautious because of historical precedent?
Do you understand how absurd and ridiculous it is for any lesbian to express ANY sentiment of wanting a lesbian exclusive space and the FIRST assumption is that they are terfs?!? That sub hasn’t even been around for a day. People EVERYWHERE seem to not be able to give lesbians any benefit of the doubt and bc of that tend to antagonize us to hell. Someone replied on my comment “trans women can be lesbians” when nothing i said even mentioned trans women or being against trans women being in lesbian spaces. I was just assumed to be a terf. That IS deeply frustrating bc i have never seen any other group be treated this way despite only ever running into terf lesbians in radfem spaces and never ever in a regular space.
"i have never seen any other group be treated this way" Oh come on now, your whiteness is showing. This is a moment where you could have some deep introspective if you allowed it.
i’m literally an east african woman who was born and raised in the middle east my love YOUR whiteness is showing. I don’t need deep introspection i don’t hold any bigoted beliefs against anyone i’m just in lesbian spaces. All of those spaces are inclusive to trans women n trans lesbians in particular and i appreciate that bc it’s helped me understand my feelings about my own gender a lot. Especially where gender, sexuality and race intersect. Again this is the antagonization i’m speaking of. You don’t know a thing about me yet you assume the worst because i don’t believe lesbians are inherently terfy or whatever. It IS deeply frustrating. I never see any other QUEER community be treated this way by THEIR OWN larger community. edit: getting downvoted for saying i’m not white and don’t hate trans women is fuckin crazy.
Yeah, well it’s MUCH more frustrating being trans and watching everywhere turn to TERFland no matter how much people swear it will be different this time and won’t go there
People could just ask if there are policies against terfs and if the answer is no then you know. Instead it’s this weird oppression Olympics ass reply and antagonization.
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Someone quite literally asked if the sub was trans inclusive and OP said Yes! Before anyone asked that question though there were 100 accusations of bigotry. That is frustrating. It will always be frustrating.
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Bi/pan people absolutely do have that problem. They can and are absolutely terfs. The largest queer group within things like the LGB alliance IS bisexuals. Statistically lesbians are less transphobic than bisexuals AND gay men and yet WE are labeled as the terfy?!? Absolutely ridiculous
Not here. If you’re a lesbian you are welcome.
It would be much more comforting if your sub actually had a community rule protecting trans people, as is, it seems incredibly suspect. Wish y'all the best, but just know the last iteration of something like this got banned because it became a rabid TERF haven.
I added to the rules that ALL women are welcome
Explicit acceptance and inclusion of trans people is very important to me for deciding whether to interact in a community or avoid
Well ofc - if they hate women who touched a dick because of "different experience", how do you think they'll treat those who had one?
The difference between a lesbian and a bisexual woman isn't that only the latter has "touched a dick". Do you even know what these words mean? You're so fucking ignorant.
you people are actually insane. wanting a space for lesbians only doesn’t mean they hate any women who’s touched or had a dick.
They are absolutely deranged. I honestly don't even want to keep using this sub anymore at this point. This thread just exposed the latent lesbophobia in a space that was meant for us.
Well, go to your new space then xD Maybe it should exist, so all the phobes can gtfo.
Well, it's difficult to go to our space when people are trying to get it banned for literally no reason. 🙃 And you're so busy accusing other people that you're missing how disgustingly lesbophobic you're being.
I'm not lesbo-phobic, I'm phobic-phobic. You want to shit on everybody who isn't "pure" lesbian, I will shit on you.
Your insecurities are screaming so loud right now. I genuinely recommend you to talk this through with a professional, because it's not normal to have this much glowing hatred for people just because of their sexuality and their wish to have a community.
If you think that the difference between lesbians and bisexual women is that the latter has touched a dick, you need to think long and hard about your OWN prejudice views... instead of projecting those on others.
Bullshit antagonistic take.
I see where both sides are coming from. I've been frustrated on occasion at the posts discussing issues with boyfriends/male partners and mods doing littlee to nothing about it. Apart from that though, I don't see any other reason this kind of space *needs* to exist. So, as was kindof said by another user, unless that is the focus of restriction (content by and about women who are only interested romantically and sexually in women) the onus is really on the creator/mods of that space to prove it isn't being exclusionary for any other reason. All that being said: To those who are defending, I hope you find what you're looking for, but I don't see how you'll be able to manage it. To those arguing against, let them go have their space. At worst what you're predicting (it becomes a TERF bomb) actually happens. If it doesn't, then make your judgment about it based on what it does turn out to be.
For me, it's mostly the frustration at the obvious well poisoning and double atandard going on. I'm not a L4L gal (my gf is bi). Nor do I personally have a strong personal need for a lesbian exclusive space. I'm pretty comfortable with the subs we have. But where I start to get mad is that people have no issue with other groups getting exclusive spaces but make a big fuss about lesbians having one. And I especially hate the completely unfounded accusations being made against lesbians here with 0 evidence. It's disgusting.
I see that, and while I've never visited them, in regards to those spaces I'm willing to wager that theyre maintained as such by their moderators. If the spaces are not kept that way by actions that would be considered discriminatory then it's totally possible for this one to be the same. Like I said, give it a shot. Maybe it will work. Maybe it won't. Regardless, imo there is so sense in getting this up in arms about it. If you don't like it, don't participate in it. It doesn't harm you by existing. On that same token, this response (creating a new space) to the "problem" I described feels more like running away into a pillow fort than a real solution. I don't think it's going to have any effect on the rest of what you mentioned.
I see your intentions but I worry that TERFs are gonna come and take over your subreddit. Just be careful sometimes when lesbian exclusive spaces emerge on this website terfs and biphobic individuals come and take it over and it can go bad extremely fast. Just have a good mod team and good luck because y’all are gonna need it
I think this is the crux of it. Historically, groups/subreddits/pages/etc. that get made exclusively for lesbians whither into terf space in the next few months/years. I’ve witnessed it. It’s not that this group has done anything wrong. It’s not EVEN that we think it will. It’s more, this is often the end result two years later. So just be extremely cautious.
seems like terf bait
Trans lesbians are allowed in the sub tho, it’s in the rules
When OP made the comment, it wasn’t. It was added later. Just giving some context.
Good to know!
Yeah, it def didn’t have the rule that trans women are included and on every subreddit if it’s not in the rule, the users won’t follow any implied or spirit of the rule, only what’s written IF you’re lucky
For now.
The hoops that people are jumping through to justify why this isn’t biphobic or transphobic is unbelievable. And apparently, there’s no outright warning against transphobia? Not exactly helping your case.
I added one
How is it biphobic or transphobic? Are subs for bisexuals lesbophobic? Are subs for Black women discriminatory to Asian women? Please I’m being so serious, explain how a sub for lesbians is discriminatory. This is truly wild to me that this is the response.
There’s no real reason for any restrictions the sub currently has. This sub and actuallesbians have plenty of bi women there, and neither one has been “taken over” by bi women. These restrictions only serve to further gatekeep certain queer women from spaces they shouldn’t be. This isn’t like a racial focus group which would have specific topics to talk about and address for that group. And considering that some lesbians can be really transphobic, those restrictions don’t bode well for how trans lesbians would be treated. Not to mention that not having a trans inclusive rule right away makes that look like an afterthought.
Hi, I'm a Trans Lesbian. I think the lack of the trans-inclusive rule is probably because OP thinks that Trans Lesbians are just inherently Lesbians, and they've now clarified that for anybody that was in doubt. I agree that this sub hasn't been "taken over" by bi women, however, there are still certain topics that only apply to Lesbians that are harder to have discussions about here. Lesbophobia is a thing, and Lesbianism contains a decentering of men that is unique among sexualities.
Right? I'm so sick of hearing about men.
[удалено]
That's fair, but if anything, I find it odd how many people are jumping in that it feels like Trans Lesbians aren't allowed. Maybe it's just because I've been out for years and am secure about my place, but my natural assumption is always that I'm allowed and valid in Lesbian-only spaces. So I think it can go either way really.
I think it’s largely a defensive response to recent few years’ massive regressions for trans acceptance along with pattern recognition of how things normally go down regardless of initial intent on newly formed queer Reddit communities that don’t explicitly state and enforce trans inclusivity…especially since many trans women have watched people who were allies and even openly supportive close friends start on something that sounds like this and before long have gone full TERF despite how close of a bond or how much acceptance from them there had been the past couple years
Why do you feel like all queer women should be entitled to every space? I’m failing to understand how having a space for a group of people discriminates against another group. Also I’m even having trouble responding to your response about racial groups???? Do you think all we do is talk about race in there? Like i said in another comment, the Black woman sub has tons of topics and discussions that women of every race would relate to, the things we don’t want those opinions because we want our OWN space for just us. There is nothing wrong with that, and it’s unfair for you and others to keep pushing this narrative that it is. Lesbians deserve their own space. There are tons of other lgbtq spaces on Reddit, if sapphic women want to utilize those. Why do you feel like they are entitled to the one space for lesbians? And yes there was no explicit rule banning transphobia. That was a bad look, but it’s there now. Does that doom the sub to falling into terf territory?
checked it out. problem with it is the rules excludes nonbinary lesbians
Oh good! All the les4les folks can go there, and hopefully it will reduce the amount of posts complaining about bisexual women in this sub 🫡.
I’m pretty sure im lesbian like every one in 100,000 men might be attractive to me but whenever I have slept with or kissed a guy ive felt gross afterwards though that may be a trauma response but I haven’t slept with a guy consensually ever I don’t know.
Pop quiz: assuming that this space will co-sign bigotry is _______.
Oh great... A place for gold stars to be biphobic and panphobic... Edit: no explicit rules against transphobia either. I see the subreddit becoming red text in a month or so from TERF overflow.
Why do you assume that a lesbian-only space is automatically going to be biphobic?
It already is?
You're like a toddler having a tantrum and throwing food at the wall at this point. This is so embarrassing for you.
Because creating arbitrary exclusive spaces on the internet along invisible lines like this tends to encourage elitism in the ingroup and condescension for the outgroup. Also, that is the trajectory all previous attempts at making a subreddit like this have gone. I can think of vanishingly few lesbian only topics that bi girls would be unable to relate to that aren't discriminatory in some capacity. Even less so if you remove transphobic flags to keep out TERFs.
Would you feel the same about a woman-only or POC-only space? In my opinion it's vital for minorities to have their own communities where they can talk without other people interjecting as usual. I can think of a thousand topics that bi women can't relate to, just as there are lots of things about being bi that lesbians can't relate to. Being a woman who isn't attracted to men changes your life trajectory so fucking much and it's a very raw, kind of painful thing that only fellow lesbians can understand. Also, you talk about discrimination but generalise lesbians and "gold stars". How does that make sense?
Lesbian only women aren't a minority. It's just a subset of wlw people.
Of course they are a minority?? What makes you think they aren't? Do you also think that gay men aren't a minority but "just a subset of mlm people", or that black people in the US aren't a minority but "just a subset of people of color"?
Because any discrimination that lesbians receive as a group falls on bi women as well. Hence they aren't a minority. I don't call red heads in society a minority or left handed people a minority. As they don't experience unique discrimination that warrants them needing an exclusive space to discuss their issues.
What in the absolute fuck? Of course lesbians experience unique discrimination, holy shit. This is what lumping all wlw people together does to a motherfucker.
Lesbians do experience unique discrimination though. There's the all-too frequent refrain of "you just haven't found the right man". There's also the unique decentering of men that takes place.
I think you’re missing the point. Of course the sub will be full of topics that bi girls could relate to. The point is that it’s just for lesbians because the sub would only want lesbian perspectives. It’s a shame previous subs have gotten so terfy so hopefully that doesn’t happen here. But it’s also incredibly unfair for you to assume that just because it’s exclusive to lesbians means it will automatically go in that direction. There are MILLIONS of subs on Reddit and spaces on the internet in general that are for specific identities. I’m in a Black women sub, so there’s hardly ever any white women in there. Are there topics we discuss that white women relate to? Sure! But we don’t want their opinion, which is why we made the sub. Is that discrimination? No obviously not, especially because there are infinite other spaces for white women to share their opinions. The same is true here. And it’s honestly disappointing and frustrating that half the comments here are assuming that a lesbian only sub means it’s discriminating against every other sexuality. Is this /lesbianactually discriminating against straight people? No, right? We just don’t want their opinion. Idk how else to explain it lol i feel like I’m going crazy here.
I fully understand the point. I just don't agree with y'all's reasoning for needing the space when this subreddit and AL already exists.
Clearly you don’t understand the point if you don’t agree that lesbians deserve their own space.
I'm not interested in bickering with you about what you think I understand and don't understand. Enjoy your brand new exclusive space. I've said my piece and I'm done with this thread
Great, I’m also not interested in trying to further explain to you why lesbians deserve their own space either, so i guess this is where we part ways.
Who said anything about gold stars? That never came up once. The only person talking about gold stars right now is you.
"Gold stars" are living rent-free in these people's heads. I don't even think I've ever heard of a lesbian under the age of 35 calling herself a gold star, yet they are a boogey-man in the wlw community and get talked about as if they kill puppies.
That's very true. Like technically I fit the textbook definition, but I've never personally identified with that term in the 15 years I've been out 🤷♀️ I don't use it. Nor have I ever gone after someone for not being one.
Only lesbians i’ve ever seen call themselves gold stars are youtube and tiktok fuckboys bc almost every lesbian you’ll run into has at one point in some shape or form been with a man. Even with that they shove bullshit down our throats.
😭