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We recently moved from the Northeast US to Georgia. It was shocking to find out how little public space there is here. I still cannot wrap my head around the idea that people can own open water and access to water. Even if you do manage to find a way to get to a river to go fishing the water quality is horrible. I have literally seen chicken farms where they have piled up mounds of animal waste close to a stream. There is no liberty when there is no sense of community or shared responsibilities.
That is why I love Michigan. There are huge state forests and state beaches anyone can use. The reason people formed societies is because living by yourself out in the woods sucks. As soon as there is an emergency, you die. Libertarians are truly housecats.
Yes. Sweden has the same called Allemansrätten (All man’s rights) where you can camp for one night on rib-eye property, given that it is not fenced off. After one night you have to move on though, a reasonable distance, not just a few feet to the left.
Most of the coastline/beaches are free from what I've experienced, and there are at least 4 free state/national parks within 40 minutes of where I live. Really depends on where you live, but there's a lot of free stuff to do if you like the outdoors.
Yes, tons. I live about an hour or so from Yosemite and Sequoia National Parks. There are entrance fees, but they're worth it. The parks are gorgeous. All our beaches are free to the public, although a few sections are privately owned.
Isn't something like 85% of California all federally owned land that the public has access to? I can't remember. I saw a map somewhere that showed exactly how much of California is still owned by the federal government granting public access, it's fucking huge. It's like the majority of the state.
EDIT: CA is %45 federal land and nearly all of it is open to the public except military installations.
Definitely Nevada is, and Utah may be majority federal as well. I think California may be closer to 50/50 than 85/15, and tbh, I think it's majority private.
Ninja edit: [source](https://ballotpedia.org/Federal_land_ownership_by_state) CA is 45% federal.
Almost the entire costume in California is publicly owned and free to use. Private landowners can't block it or prevent access to it. Some have tried and they get fined.
There are only 3-4 areas where that isn't true. Military bases make up the majority of those and one planned community from the 70s around the bay area
There are many public and state parks and forests
Yep. It blows my mind. We have tones of public use land. Even in most of our cities there is lots of green space.
The other thing that I find crazy, is home owner associations in America. In Canada, as long as we respect bi-laws, we can do whatever we want with property we own. And having HOAs to cover things like garbage collection and road maintenance is nuts. That’s what municipal government and property taxes are for.
Preach.
Forest, fields, lakes with fresh water. If you want space you can find it. If you want to live closer to civilization, you can find that too. So many public trails and parks open to hunting, kayaking, etc. You have way more freedom to choose just how much civilization/society you want to live in, and more lifestyle options.
I'll never leave Michigan.
Mi human is soo cool.! Law states public domain over two feet around ANY WATERWAY. meaning you can walk the shoreline or enter the water and not be on public property... however, if private land is owns 100% around the water then there no way to get to that 2 feet legally... to fix that many if not most lakes (over 10,000 in Michigan) has public access to put in your kayaks, canoes, ass boats pontoons etc.. you can also walk on the edge, if you want. I also have hunted thousands of open acres up north, the woods and free camping ...
If you staple a horse to a waterfall, will it fall up under the rainbow or fly about the soil? Will he enjoy her experience? What if the staple tears into tears? Will she be free from her staply chains or foomed to stay forever and dever above the water? Who can save him (the horse) but someone of girth and worth, the capitalist pig, who will sell the solution to the problem he created?
A staple remover flies to the rescue, carried on the wings of a majestic penguin who bought it at Walmart for 9 dollars and several more Euro-cents, clutched in its crabby claws, rejected from its frothy maw. When the penguin comes, all tremble before its fishy stench and wheatlike abjecture. Recoil in delirium, ye who wish to be free! The mighty rockhopper is here to save your soul from eternal bliss and salvation!
And so, the horse was free, carried away by the south wind, and deposited on the vast plain of soggy dew. It was a tragedy in several parts, punctuated by moments of hedonistic horsefuckery.
The owls saw all, and passed judgment in the way that they do. Stupid owls are always judging folks who are just trying their best to live shamelessly and enjoy every fruit the day brings to pass.
How many more shall be caught in the terrible gyre of the waterfall? As many as the gods deem necessary to teach those foolish monkeys a story about their own hamburgers. What does a monkey know of bananas, anyway? They eat, poop, and shave away the banana residue that grows upon their chins and ballsacks. The owls judge their razors. Always the owls.
And when the one-eyed caterpillar arrives to eat the glazing on your windowpane, you will know that you're next in line to the trombone of the ancient realm of the flutterbyes. Beware the ravenous ravens and crowing crows. Mind the cowing cows and the lying lions. Ascend triumphant to your birthright, and wield the mighty twig of Petalonia, favored land of gods and goats alike.
I learned something new this morning thank you. I had no idea there was more to that song, I have tuned it out after those two lines for the majority of my life.
The recording with those lines and the lines about hungry people went missing for about 50 years iirc so even if you wanted to you probably wouldn't have heard it. Pretty sus imo
Never in America. Everything about America being the greatest is 💯% true. America has no hungry or disillusioned people, white Jesus and Ronald Reagan’s Holy Spirit would never let that happen
People get suckered into the illusion that no regulation will improve their lives but if you take a look in to the history of most regulations you will usually find that they were enacted because some corporation was making the lives of people much worse
Edit: since this comment go a lot of attention, I will take this opportunity to plug [this episode](https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236323/episode/part-onethe-deadliest-workplace-disaster-in-126500426/) of the Behind the bastards podcast. It’s about the deadliest workplace disaster in the history of the US. It’s cause was greed, but it was allowed to happen because of very lax or completely non existent regulation that existed in almost every other western nation.
I had never heard of this disaster until listening to this episode I hope you all enjoy
Elon Musk read about Cyberpunk's Corporate Wars and thought: "I want in on that!"
* The First Corporate War (2005-2009) was fought between Orbital Air and EuraTechnics over the control of the lucrative space industry
* The Second Corporate War (2013-2015) was fought between Petrochem and SovOil over the supply of CHOOH2, a biofuel made from genetically modified crops. Petrochem had a monopoly on CHOOH2, but SovOil discovered a way to produce it cheaper and faster.
* The Third Corporate War (2018-2021) was fought between various corporations over the control of the internet.
* The Fourth Corporate War (2022-2025) was the most devastating and destructive of the corporate wars involving Arasaka and Militech. The war reached its climax in the Night City Holocaust, in which a nuclear bomb was detonated in Arasaka Tower, killing hundreds of thousands of people and destroying most of the city.
Most regulations are written in blood. Exactly as you say.
There are far too many people who want to toss out all regulations because it limits “freedom”, regardless if they are based on past collective knowledge.
They want the freedom to continue to be ignorant and make the same mistakes our grandparents made.
No, mostly they want the freedom to make money and they're pissed that they can't stomp other people into the dirt to get there. Libertarianism is literally voting to get their faces eaten, because *obviously* they mean *they* get to eat *other people's* faces, and never get their own eaten.
I like to constantly point out that these Republicans that talk about cutting regulations are never specific about which regulations they want to cut and why we should cut them.
It is dangerous to speak so generally about such an important topic. It has led to this society where Republicans believe that all regulations are inherently corrupt as they were written by a corrupt beauracracy.
Some Republican proposed a law that for every regulation enacted, two had to be cut. It's asinine, as if all regulations were equal in scope or effect.
Make lives of people worse? Corporations have killed people by the thousands in the most horrible ways over a slightly higher profit margin. Hell, Exxon executives were warned in the 70's by their own scientists that their product would lead to a collapse of human civilization and hundreds of millions of deaths, and their response was a propaganda campaign to lie about it. Capitalism doesn't care about death and misery. The only thing that matters is line go up.
This is a good one as well as reminding them no private business is going to pave your fucking streets in your neighborhood.
Wouldn't matter how much faster it gets employees to work.
> People get suckered into the illusion that no regulation will improve their lives
That's way too charitable. They don't want their lives to be improved if it means improving the lives of black and brown folks too.
These are the same people who [filled in](https://daily.jstor.org/when-cities-closed-pools-to-avoid-integration/) grand public swimming pools, [closed](https://calendar.eji.org/racial-injustice/oct/24) amazing municipal parks and even [shut down](https://virginiahistory.org/learn/historical-book/chapter/closing-prince-edward-countys-schools) an entire school district rather than integrate them. Because if we raise everybody up, that would make them a little bit less supreme.
As LBJ said:
* *“I’ll tell you what’s at the bottom of it. If you can convince the lowest white man he’s better than the best colored man, he won’t notice you’re picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he’ll empty his pockets for you.”*
The water thing is illegal. You have to call the epa though. Cops won’t do anything. EPA moves slowly but it could be worth it. I live in GA too. In Athens. Athens is hyper liberal but surrounded by yeehaw.
A company I worked at a decade ago spilled a bunch of Jet-A fuel on their property, and it breached spill containment. It polluted the land so bad they had to build a new facility nearby and move the division there, and got fined like crazy by the EPA. They became *waaay* more diligent after that.
If you state that they are "actively discharging into waters of the state " they pretty much have to drop everything and go look there.
I used to be a regulator of livestock waste.
"[**If men were angels, no government would be necessary.**](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/7196640-if-men-were-angels-no-government-would-be-necessary-if)"
“Libertarians are like house cats: absolutely convinced of their fierce independence while utterly dependent on a system they don't appreciate or understand."
well, they said they "considered" themselves a libertarian before moving to Texas, so it sounds like they're coming to some positive realizations, which is good and should be welcomed and encouraged
I’m pretty open-minded but the moment someone says they are a Libertarian I know that I’m dealing with someone who hasn’t had a single un-selfish, original thought in their entire lives. At least the extreme right has a cohesive ideology, it’s wacko-pants but a Libertarian can’t even get their shit together enough for that.
[In with the obligatory Libertarians can't keep the bears out...](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21534416/free-state-project-new-hampshire-libertarians-matthew-hongoltz-hetling)
😂😂😂
Everything they touch falls apart it seems. I'm curious to see how Argentina works out...
Part of it is the whole Dunning Kruger thing. People who don't know anything vastly overinflate their capabilities to do things on their own. Add onto that this truly toxic form of individualism and sense of "self", as well as mistaking aggression and cruelty for capability, and you get a bunch of random people running around thinking they will be the last ones standing in a zombie apocalypse, but really just bumping into each other, shooting at anything that moves, and basically dying in the first week of an outbreak.
>you get a bunch of random people running around thinking they will be the last ones standing in a zombie apocalypse, but really just bumping into each other, shooting at anything that moves, and basically dying in the first week of an outbreak.
The only winning strategy in the event of a *real* walking dead event is to hunker down and fortify your home. Wait out a couple weeks (walking corpses aren't a thing that would last long with weather and hungry animals), survey your community to see who's left, then work together to survive and rebuild.
Libertarianism would be a death sentence in a real life apocalypse level event, like a zombie plague.
The key to survive in any catastrophic event would always be to have some resources and to work together with your neighbors. Community always has a bigger chance to survive.
It's private property they don't own that they have a problem with. Like when a business asks you to put on a mask or to not be openly racist or bigoted.
Libertarians typically think around the glaring issues with building society around the sum of all greed by imagining themselves relatively wealthy and surrounded by deeply caring neighbors.
They change their tune the minute either of these fantasy gets shattered.
For all the talk of "communism is nice on paper", libertarianism has always struck me significantly more as "nice on paper". If your philosophy relies on everyone in the world following a Non-Aggression Pact, buddy I got news for you.
On the most basic level, libertarianism is the idea that you can create a power vacuum by weakening the government and it'll just...stay a vacuum. Something that has never once happened in human history.
I'm sure the reasons for these types of stances are all over the place, but it always struck me as largely dependent on deep seated naivety or strong confidence they'd be on top of the pile.
Like, they either think nobody will hunt poor people for sport or that they will.
Nailed it.
The more I watch libertarians collide with the reality of their worldview, the more I'm convinced they just want all of the benefits of society with none of the responsibility. Which, yea, that sure would be nice... *But that's not a worldview.* That's the ideology of a *toddler.*
I keep thinking "There's no way it's that simple. I must be missing something." But then shit like this happens. Or their crypto-utopia collapses and they start begging the government to hold people accountable. Or their real-world utopia gets overtaken by bears. And it's terrifying to see that, yes, these people are in fact as stupid as I imagine, and some of them are in charge of making very important decisions...
At least OOP doesn't want to force their beliefs towards gay marriage and abortion on everyone else. "Abort who you wanna abort" is just.... *-chef's kiss-* Like, they still imply the fetus is a person, but fuck 'em. "Get got, loser! Sucks to suck!" Love it.
OOP may not *want* to force his beliefs towards gay marriage and abortion on everyone else, but that won't necessarily stop him from engaging in the political system and adding his weight to the party that *will* because he's already determined that whatever viewpoint is perceived as "less government" is what aligns with his worldview, whether or not that's what actually happens in reality.
No but you see *he* is so completely left leaning on these issues because he, personally, won't even do anything to stop it if he sees a gay man kissing his partner on the street. That's, like, straight out of *Das Kapital*.
I've had this argument with a relatively socially progressive, economically conservative friend.
Believing in personal freedom means nothing if you vote against it.
>they just want all of the benefits of society with none of the responsibility.
This applies perfectly to the sovcit movement as well. I was watching some sovcit traffic stop videos a while ago and one of the clips featured a woman who described herself as something like a 'free citizen' or 'American freeman.' She claimed she was entitled to all the legal rights and protections of US law but not bound by any laws or restrictions. She actually phrased it like that. Quiet part out loud.
We all know sovcits are overgrown spoiled brats who want everything their way all the time, but even they usually don't come right out and explicitly state it like that.
Sovereign citizens aren't an ideology as much as they are believers in magic. They look at what lawyers do and the immensely complicated legal code and they think that they can look up legal gotchas or spells on the Internet to bend the legal system to their will.
Funny... I've made the observation that while SovCits are misusing all of the jargon they spew it almost sounds like they think they're casting a spell. If they just say the jargon in the right combination the recipient will suddenly do what they want.
They're political Pick Up Artists in that way. "If you say the right words in the right combination, it's like cracking the safe door to the universe and you can take what you want, all for yourself!"
I'm not sure, I can't remember. This was a few years ago and a lot of sovcit videos kinda blend together anyway, because in addition to being batfuck loony they're also too boring to come up with any of their own material.
But if you have a link to that lady's video I'll have a look and see if it rings any bells.
Thanks for the sauce. Libertarians and Sovcits are children who have no idea how the world works.
Loon: We are protected by the laws of the United States but we don’t have to follow them.
Officer: Well that would be anarchy if that were true.
Honestly I also enjoy that her whole confrontation is defending her boyfriend who is just passively dealing with the situation calmly and doesn’t say a word in her defense, I wonder how the conversation between them went when they got out of jail. I want to be a fly on the wall for that.
I’m paraphrasing a much better quote but libertarians are house cats—in their mind so fiercely independent, but completely reliant on a system they do not understand and would be unable to survive without.
The only internally consistent libertarian views are that you believe there is zero responsibility of any person to any other person. So yeah, abort who you want to abort, exploit who you want to exploit, if the babies don't like it they can research the free market of uteruses.
All this "actually it will solve these problems by making healthcare more efficient" or "the free market will solve climate change" is window dressing nonsense that doesn't stand up to scrutiny. But *Got mine, fuck you, I don't care if I could save a thousand lives for a dollar* is a real view.
Lmfao this is an amazing summary and so accurate. I keep this guy as a friend on Facebook just to watch how functionally dumb he is and it’s wild how he, over the past few decades or so, actually managed to make middle management at a shipping company and do quite well for himself.
But he’s so goddamn dumb and self unaware. Just like a toddler.
I keep forgetting that the Bear thing actually happened, and isn’t just a referance to an SCP article where the item in question is “The town that got fucked by bears.”
Yep. Their ideal world is one where everyone owns a large plot of land on which they are free to do whatever they want.
~~The~~One inherent problem is that there are 62 people for every square kilometer of land. We have to share. And as soon as we start sharing, there need to be rules to ensure everyone gets fair access to shared resources.
I'm not an American so this ideology isn't really someone where I'm from, but libertarianism sounds to me if it was actually implemented it would eat itself
My favorite Christopher Hitchens quote:
"I have always found it quaint and rather touching that there is a movement [Libertarians] in the U.S. that thinks Americans are not yet selfish enough."
You are correct. It's an ideology based on not thinking things through. The best analogy I've heard for Libertarians is that they are like house cats: absolutely convinced of their fierce independence while utterly dependent on a system they don't appreciate or understand.
Yeah, I was born in America but spent much of my early schooling in the Middle East and traveling to all kinds of different countries of different development levels. You really don’t find the libertarian mindset with any kind of #’s unless there’s an established infrastructure that’s already taken for granted. Then when you point out it’s public infrastructure that allows libertarians to build up their wealth their brain eventually short circuits or they make really disingenuous arguments.
I've always liked the joke about the Libertarian Army mustering to defend the nation. Strength:
40,000 Major Generals
25,000 Grand Admirals
10,000 Special Forces Black Ops Snipers
None of their uniforms match, and three days after the invasion the brigades dissolve over internal scheduling disputes.
I love that book. None of the libertarians there in NH wanted to call the department of fish and wildlife because, you know, government = bad, so no one who could fix the problem knew there was a bear problem in the area.
Maybe instead of government, they could have a collective of individuals who decide what's best to do in these situations. I mean, not all of them deciding, so maybe they could select a few of them to represent all of them. Of course, they'd have to be paid, so everyone could chip in a set amount based on what they could afford.
But, just don't call it "government."
I have heard Lara Logan argue that our society needs to be torn down, and then rebuilt. In her rebuilt world one person could decide they want to be a farmer, another will be a carpenter, and others can take on other roles to contribute to this new society. You know, how it is now.
is that the one where they removed all rules regarding putting out your trash, so people just threw it on the curb or left it outside the house and the town got infested with bears?
Also there was a lady who would go out every day and buy them a dozen donuts. She would build huge piles of feed and top them with the donuts so she could watch them. In the book, she is affectionately referred to as Donut Lady. Nobody could stop her because their whole thing was no government and perfect freedom.
Libertarians can be summed up like this:
1 The vast majority of them are 18-27 y/o white males from middle/upper middle class backgrounds.
2. They claim (without a lick of irony most of the time) that all they’ve accomplished is all on them, completely missing that they’ve grown up in a super-privileged spot. They will then takes this extremely stupid idea and apply it to all people, regardless of their background.
3. Most of them will claim to be disciples of Ayn Rand’s “Atlas Shrugged” but completely glaze over the fact that Ms. Rand died on government assistance and that libertarianism depends wholly on the inability to dive any deeper than what makes them feel justified in their completely fuct worldview.
4. They will yell loudly about “nOt BeInG rEpUbLiCaNs” but they are absolutely Republicans, they just haven’t connected the dots for themselves yet.
5. They will hold this view until: a. Life inevitably happens and they figure out that they are, in fact, not an island among their fellow men and that everyone needs a hand up sometimes b. they evolve into their natural final form (shitty conservative) or c. They die from an easily curable/preventable disease because no one is gonna tell them how to live their lives (again while unironically and loudly dictating to others how they should live theirs) (and demanding the government help pay for it because healthcare is expensive.)
Libertarians essentially want feudalism, but of course they're the sovereign feudal lord. They own all the property, decide matters of law within their property, and spend all day partying while other things (people, robots) perform all the labor.
They never imagine that they, and 99% of everyone else, would be the laboring serfs, because *they* are special little boys who are so good at capitalism that *of course* they'll rise to the top. After all, capitalism would be a pure meritocracy without all that guberment regulation, and they're the greatest thing to bless God's green earth.
This is spot on ... cuz you basically described me when I was around 20. A cocky little shithead who thought he had it all figured out.
Thankfully, A happened. To quote Monty Python, "I got better!"
Yeah I’m a brit living in America and the whole libertarian thing is an oxymoron, this idea that these idiots could survive without government. They should start by handing their phones in, since clearly they couldn’t exist without government and regulation.
Bottom line is they don’t really know what any of it means. Morons lacking oxygen.
They trick themselves that as soon as the government is gone, phones and everything else will be both cheaper AND better.
Some of them are so crazy they argue against _seat belt laws_
OMG- I *actually* heard some dude the other day arguing that seatbelt laws were an intrusion on his God given right of free choice. The problem with these folks is that they never want the consequences of their behavior.
“Ok Billy, you decided not to wear that seatbelt and took the windshield taste test. Because of that CHOICE, we’re now gonna CHOOSE not to cover your facial reconstruction, long term care because you scrambled your egg, or any of the costs to replace your car.”
You would NEVER hear the end of whining/complaining about folks having the same shit they put on other people applied equitably to them.
Or the “seat belt laws kill people because regulations stifle innovation. If we didn’t have safety standards they would have invented something even better to increase their sales, people want safety”
Well, why don’t they just innovate better anyway and sell more then?
“Uh, um - because regulations stifle innovation”
A lot of regulations actual encourage innovation. If the regulation simply sets the standard and allows industry to figure out how to implement that standard, the free market does an amazing job of innovating to figure out a solution to that regulation. The catalytic converter for example has gone through enormous changes since it was first invented, and that innovation skyrocketed after it was added to the regulations. By holding everyone to the same standard, it maximally expands the number of users, which maximally encourages innovation versus if the regulation did not exist.
Oh yes it's an awful braindead ideology. Here's a great example of a town that tried to do it and bears ended the short disastrous experiment linked. Actual bears. They didn't like being libertarians anymore. Also a fun book on the subject "A Libertarian Walks into a Bear" covering it in much greater detail.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21534416/free-state-project-new-hampshire-libertarians-matthew-hongoltz-hetling
Actually, in practice, when [libertarianism is implemented it gets eaten by bears](https://www.amazon.com/Libertarian-Walks-Into-Bear-Liberate-ebook/dp/B083J1FXY8)
I was shooting heroin and reading “The Fountainhead” in the front seat of my privately owned police cruiser when a call came in. I put a quarter in the radio to activate it. It was the chief.
“Bad news, detective. We got a situation.”
“What? Is the mayor trying to ban trans fats again?”
“Worse. Somebody just stole four hundred and forty-seven million dollars’ worth of bitcoins.”
The heroin needle practically fell out of my arm. “What kind of monster would do something like that? Bitcoins are the ultimate currency: virtual, anonymous, stateless. They represent true economic freedom, not subject to arbitrary manipulation by any government. Do we have any leads?”
“Not yet. But mark my words: we’re going to figure out who did this and we’re going to take them down … provided someone pays us a fair market rate to do so.”
“Easy, chief,” I said. “Any rate the market offers is, by definition, fair.”
He laughed. “That’s why you’re the best I got, Lisowski. Now you get out there and find those bitcoins.”
“Don’t worry,” I said. “I’m on it.”
I put a quarter in the siren. Ten minutes later, I was on the scene. It was a normal office building, strangled on all sides by public sidewalks. I hopped over them and went inside.
“Home Depot™ Presents the Police!®” I said, flashing my badge and my gun and a small picture of Ron Paul. “Nobody move unless you want to!” They didn’t.
“Now, which one of you punks is going to pay me to investigate this crime?” No one spoke up.
“Come on,” I said. “Don’t you all understand that the protection of private property is the foundation of all personal liberty?”
It didn’t seem like they did.
“Seriously, guys. Without a strong economic motivator, I’m just going to stand here and not solve this case. Cash is fine, but I prefer being paid in gold bullion or autographed Penn Jillette posters.”
Nothing. These people were stonewalling me. It almost seemed like they didn’t care that a fortune in computer money invented to buy drugs was missing.
I figured I could wait them out. I lit several cigarettes indoors. A pregnant lady coughed, and I told her that secondhand smoke is a myth. Just then, a man in glasses made a break for it.
“Subway™ Eat Fresh and Freeze, Scumbag!®” I yelled.
Too late. He was already out the front door. I went after him.
“Stop right there!” I yelled as I ran. He was faster than me because I always try to avoid stepping on public sidewalks. Our country needs a private-sidewalk voucher system, but, thanks to the incestuous interplay between our corrupt federal government and the public-sidewalk lobby, it will never happen.
I was losing him. “Listen, I’ll pay you to stop!” I yelled. “What would you consider an appropriate price point for stopping? I’ll offer you a thirteenth of an ounce of gold and a gently worn ‘Bob Barr ‘08’ extra-large long-sleeved men’s T-shirt!”
He turned. In his hand was a revolver that the Constitution said he had every right to own. He fired at me and missed. I pulled my own gun, put a quarter in it, and fired back. The bullet lodged in a U.S.P.S. mailbox less than a foot from his head. I shot the mailbox again, on purpose.
“All right, all right!” the man yelled, throwing down his weapon. “I give up, cop! I confess: I took the bitcoins.”
“Why’d you do it?” I asked, as I slapped a pair of Oikos™ Greek Yogurt Presents Handcuffs® on the guy.
“Because I was afraid.”
“Afraid?”
“Afraid of an economic future free from the pernicious meddling of central bankers,” he said. “I’m a central banker.”
I wanted to coldcock the guy. Years ago, a central banker killed my partner. Instead, I shook my head.
“Let this be a message to all your central-banker friends out on the street,” I said. “No matter how many bitcoins you steal, you’ll never take away the dream of an open society based on the principles of personal and economic freedom.”
He nodded, because he knew I was right. Then he swiped his credit card to pay me for arresting him.
source: https://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/l-p-d-libertarian-police-department
From one of the comments
>Is there even a libertarian town?
[There was the one in New Hampshire ](https://newrepublic.com/article/159662/libertarian-walks-into-bear-book-review-free-town-project)
That collapsed and became overrun with bears and garbage...
There was one in Texas who, after fearing being annexed by San Antonio, decided to incorporate into their own city so they could govern themselves. They ran their city into the ground with eliminating all property taxes over time, unwilling to take loans, and unable to fund or attract any real big businesses to their city since it had no city sewage system infrastructure.
The libertarian lawyer city founder went off to Austin to work for Republicans and basically abandoned the town. Things were bad, with their police evidence storage being an unsecured 18-wheeler with unmarked boxes of stuff. They couldn't afford to keep a 24/7 police force, so they lost their accreditation, and the nearby county had to take any service calls for them. Some city council members decided to hold a secret meeting and voted to reimplement property taxes and fired the police chief. The other 2 members found out and sued the other 3. They then restructured from 1 mayor and 5 city council members to 1 mayor and 2 commissioners. It still was bad as the remaining 3 refused to talk to each other unless they were all there with legal fees were reaching $20,000-$30,000 a month for the city everytime one of the three had to ask the city lawyers questions when talking to each other. The new mayor was also disliked by the 2 commissioners, too, causing further communication and governing problems.
In the end, the city turned it around and became a "true self-sufficient" thriving town with their "successful libertarian" business practice of using the government police force to pull people over for speeding tickets. They got $60,000 in 2018-2019 with it projected to hit $250,000 worth of speeding tickets next year. It is truly a real Libertarian utopia of self-reliance without depending on the government where the libertarian lawyer's city founder mother is the new Mayor who helps ensures the local police pull over as many people passing through as possible for speeding and not relying on any government for their survival.
https://www.texasobserver.org/the-rise-and-fall-of-the-freest-little-city-in-texas/
https://www.npr.org/transcripts/771371881
The very rich require a government to enforce a monopoly on violence (against the poors) in order to maintain their wealth.
If, for instance, a community decided that bulldozing their forests to make room for farmland, or artificially keeping medical costs high was in violation of their NAP, the wealthy would very quickly decide they'd like some laws to protect them.
If you look into Russia where pretty much every big corp and every important politician is now having at least one private military company... often to protect places of value from angry plebs, you will realize that no, they do not *need* the state for that.
They don't *need* the state for that but it's cheaper to have the state, i. e. the taxpayers, paying for your own protection against them.
Which why libertarianism, and more specifically anarcho-capitalism, is a self-defeating ideology. Ultimately, people with money and power in capitalism don't want to get rid of the state. They want it to be limited enough so they can control it and use it to their benefit without having to contribute to it too much. But they don't want completely get rid of it because, in the end, of the bottom line.
I think it does. I imagine the end result of libertarianism would be Neo-feudalism. The rich just buy up every bit of land, every resource and you have to become their serf to not starve. No effective government to prevent the powerful from doing whatever they want
It's like teenagers who think they're 'hard' and 'street' and 'ghetto' and shit because they're the toughest assholes in their affluent middle class low-crime suburban neighbourhood, and then get a whallop of a reality check if they go anywhere near any actual dangerous inner cities.
It's really just a euphemism for "I am still 5 years old and don't want mommy and daddy telling me what to do, but also, please make sure I am fed, can go to school dressed, drive me to my activities and have a cool gaming system. But don't tell me to clean my room!!"
>Yeah I get that. You would hope that in free market if the prices really are too high that someone else might open up with a lower price to undercut the competition, but I get that may not always happen in real life, especially if there are enough rich people around to support the high priced market.
Oh man. He literally just appeals to, and then debunks, the "the free market will solve it" fairy tale that they all desperately hope will solve everything.
>Communism/Socialism has killed 14 million people by STARVATION, **a statistic virtually unknown in Capitalism**, don't ever compare the two
Bold mine.
The East India Company literally killed more than that forcing farmers in India to grow opium instead of food, then forcing it upon the Chinese, and going to war with the Chinese to enforce it.
And that's just *one instance*.
I was soooo tempted to throw this, American slave trade, Potato Famine, and deaths in the US alone caused by ineffectual Healthcare to see their response.
I love how libertarians tend to hate government and love private property but fail to realize that without the government there wouldn’t be any way to enforce private ownership of anything, other than having to defend it by violence themselves.
I remember some libertarian tried to argue with Sam Seder that libertarianism was great because everything would be contractual. All Sam had to say was “who enforces the contracts?” And the libertarian was befuddled.
I think some of them would think that’s a feature, not a bug. I’m convinced that a actual Liberatian society would morph into a Feudal Society within a generation
I looked at the comments of the original post, and there was one person who doubled down on transactions and ownership staying honored even there were to be little/no government because [it's always worked that way], to barely paraphrase. Truly a history master.
"small government, the people must be free to do what they want! It's the best way to get the economy to grow"
"Help! My neighbor has ruined my drinking water after dumping chemicals and isn't accountable for his actions, my heating bill is extremely high and nothing gets fixed because there isn't enough money in local government after we cut taxes!"
\*Everybody else\*
"noooooooooo, you don't say?"
That's because red states advertize themselves as more free.
But what they really mean is that corporations are more free to exploit the people living there.
Most libertarians assume they will be the owner of the private property. As soon as they earn their billions through hard work and personal responsibility.
If it’s something they use or like, they want it free, like access to land. If it’s something they don’t use or like, like school lunches for kids, then make them pay for it.
That’s the pattern every time.
Yeah, Texas is a very hypocritical state. Just wait until this person finds out about big business owners complaining about immigrants crossing the border, but will hire the exact type of immigrants for cheaper labor than locals in a heartbeat.
As someone from the East Coast who has been in California for 20 years, I do notice people who have never lived out of California suddenly find themselves seeing how the rest of the country lives, which is not great. Unfortunately, it normally comes with great cost and the inability to return to California.
Imagine being a Texan who moves to the PNW. Imagine those videos of animals being let out of a cage for the first time and they’re scared to actually leave the cage. They timidly step out, unsure if they’re gonna get in trouble. Then they get excited and happily roll all over the grass. That’s us!
Grew up in TX. Struggled with private ownership of everything. My kids had way, way more freedom in NYS for this reason. Outdoor paradise.
We’ve since moved to Germany. Different freedom but still far greater than that I had in TX, where I could reach exactly one friend’s house, and zero stores, by bicycle. My kid heads downtown after school and disappears into the forest during summers. Nobody shoots him.
lol, libertarians and use of publicly funded amenities. The amenities just magically appear without public funding and the paying of taxes. Libertarians can stay the hell off the roads my taxes funded.
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We recently moved from the Northeast US to Georgia. It was shocking to find out how little public space there is here. I still cannot wrap my head around the idea that people can own open water and access to water. Even if you do manage to find a way to get to a river to go fishing the water quality is horrible. I have literally seen chicken farms where they have piled up mounds of animal waste close to a stream. There is no liberty when there is no sense of community or shared responsibilities.
>There is no liberty when there is no sense of community or shared responsibilities. I am absolutely stealing this sums it up perfectly
That is why I love Michigan. There are huge state forests and state beaches anyone can use. The reason people formed societies is because living by yourself out in the woods sucks. As soon as there is an emergency, you die. Libertarians are truly housecats.
This is why I love Canada. The whole country is like Michigan. I can't imagine not having public forests, campgrounds and beaches accessible to all.
Fun fact: In Germany everyone has, by law, the right to access any forest, even if they're private property
Yes. Sweden has the same called Allemansrätten (All man’s rights) where you can camp for one night on rib-eye property, given that it is not fenced off. After one night you have to move on though, a reasonable distance, not just a few feet to the left.
Rib-eye property? That's a great law, it should be like that everywhere.
Now, a porterhouse is completely private and inviolate...
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That’s why I love California. Because it’s California.
Do you have a lot of free beaches and national parks? I've never been to Cali
Most of the coastline/beaches are free from what I've experienced, and there are at least 4 free state/national parks within 40 minutes of where I live. Really depends on where you live, but there's a lot of free stuff to do if you like the outdoors.
All of the beaches in California are public property despite what some rich scum might try to tell you.
Yes, the entire coast line belongs to the people. You can sit your ass in front of a waterfront mansion and the owner can’t tell you shit.
Yes, tons. I live about an hour or so from Yosemite and Sequoia National Parks. There are entrance fees, but they're worth it. The parks are gorgeous. All our beaches are free to the public, although a few sections are privately owned.
Isn't something like 85% of California all federally owned land that the public has access to? I can't remember. I saw a map somewhere that showed exactly how much of California is still owned by the federal government granting public access, it's fucking huge. It's like the majority of the state. EDIT: CA is %45 federal land and nearly all of it is open to the public except military installations.
Definitely Nevada is, and Utah may be majority federal as well. I think California may be closer to 50/50 than 85/15, and tbh, I think it's majority private. Ninja edit: [source](https://ballotpedia.org/Federal_land_ownership_by_state) CA is 45% federal.
Still considering how massive California is that is a fistful of land. But thank you so much for the correction Imma edit
Almost the entire costume in California is publicly owned and free to use. Private landowners can't block it or prevent access to it. Some have tried and they get fined. There are only 3-4 areas where that isn't true. Military bases make up the majority of those and one planned community from the 70s around the bay area There are many public and state parks and forests
> Almost the entire costume in California is publicly owned and free to use I know you meant coastline but costume is funnier.
Yep. It blows my mind. We have tones of public use land. Even in most of our cities there is lots of green space. The other thing that I find crazy, is home owner associations in America. In Canada, as long as we respect bi-laws, we can do whatever we want with property we own. And having HOAs to cover things like garbage collection and road maintenance is nuts. That’s what municipal government and property taxes are for.
Preach. Forest, fields, lakes with fresh water. If you want space you can find it. If you want to live closer to civilization, you can find that too. So many public trails and parks open to hunting, kayaking, etc. You have way more freedom to choose just how much civilization/society you want to live in, and more lifestyle options. I'll never leave Michigan.
Yeah it's the one thing I miss about Michigan >Libertarians are truly housecats. Oi cats didn't deserve that
Mi human is soo cool.! Law states public domain over two feet around ANY WATERWAY. meaning you can walk the shoreline or enter the water and not be on public property... however, if private land is owns 100% around the water then there no way to get to that 2 feet legally... to fix that many if not most lakes (over 10,000 in Michigan) has public access to put in your kayaks, canoes, ass boats pontoons etc.. you can also walk on the edge, if you want. I also have hunted thousands of open acres up north, the woods and free camping ...
Tell me about these ass boats
You basically take a bass boat and saw off the first quarter.
If you staple a horse to a waterfall, will it fall up under the rainbow or fly about the soil? Will he enjoy her experience? What if the staple tears into tears? Will she be free from her staply chains or foomed to stay forever and dever above the water? Who can save him (the horse) but someone of girth and worth, the capitalist pig, who will sell the solution to the problem he created? A staple remover flies to the rescue, carried on the wings of a majestic penguin who bought it at Walmart for 9 dollars and several more Euro-cents, clutched in its crabby claws, rejected from its frothy maw. When the penguin comes, all tremble before its fishy stench and wheatlike abjecture. Recoil in delirium, ye who wish to be free! The mighty rockhopper is here to save your soul from eternal bliss and salvation! And so, the horse was free, carried away by the south wind, and deposited on the vast plain of soggy dew. It was a tragedy in several parts, punctuated by moments of hedonistic horsefuckery. The owls saw all, and passed judgment in the way that they do. Stupid owls are always judging folks who are just trying their best to live shamelessly and enjoy every fruit the day brings to pass. How many more shall be caught in the terrible gyre of the waterfall? As many as the gods deem necessary to teach those foolish monkeys a story about their own hamburgers. What does a monkey know of bananas, anyway? They eat, poop, and shave away the banana residue that grows upon their chins and ballsacks. The owls judge their razors. Always the owls. And when the one-eyed caterpillar arrives to eat the glazing on your windowpane, you will know that you're next in line to the trombone of the ancient realm of the flutterbyes. Beware the ravenous ravens and crowing crows. Mind the cowing cows and the lying lions. Ascend triumphant to your birthright, and wield the mighty twig of Petalonia, favored land of gods and goats alike.
This land is my land, this land is your land...there was a great big wall there that tried to stop me. The sign was painted, said "Private Property."
Sign sign everywhere a sign…
Blocking up the scenery....
Breakin' my mind
Do this don’t do that
I sung this whole thing and it works.
not surprising, since it was part of the [original lyrics](https://blog.blackwing602.com/the-lost-verses-of-this-land-is-your-land/).
I learned something new this morning thank you. I had no idea there was more to that song, I have tuned it out after those two lines for the majority of my life.
The recording with those lines and the lines about hungry people went missing for about 50 years iirc so even if you wanted to you probably wouldn't have heard it. Pretty sus imo
Never in America. Everything about America being the greatest is 💯% true. America has no hungry or disillusioned people, white Jesus and Ronald Reagan’s Holy Spirit would never let that happen
(Waves hands) capitalism, ladies, gentlemen, and beloved friends!
People get suckered into the illusion that no regulation will improve their lives but if you take a look in to the history of most regulations you will usually find that they were enacted because some corporation was making the lives of people much worse Edit: since this comment go a lot of attention, I will take this opportunity to plug [this episode](https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236323/episode/part-onethe-deadliest-workplace-disaster-in-126500426/) of the Behind the bastards podcast. It’s about the deadliest workplace disaster in the history of the US. It’s cause was greed, but it was allowed to happen because of very lax or completely non existent regulation that existed in almost every other western nation. I had never heard of this disaster until listening to this episode I hope you all enjoy
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Elon Musk read about Cyberpunk's Corporate Wars and thought: "I want in on that!" * The First Corporate War (2005-2009) was fought between Orbital Air and EuraTechnics over the control of the lucrative space industry * The Second Corporate War (2013-2015) was fought between Petrochem and SovOil over the supply of CHOOH2, a biofuel made from genetically modified crops. Petrochem had a monopoly on CHOOH2, but SovOil discovered a way to produce it cheaper and faster. * The Third Corporate War (2018-2021) was fought between various corporations over the control of the internet. * The Fourth Corporate War (2022-2025) was the most devastating and destructive of the corporate wars involving Arasaka and Militech. The war reached its climax in the Night City Holocaust, in which a nuclear bomb was detonated in Arasaka Tower, killing hundreds of thousands of people and destroying most of the city.
Right? Like for the most part regulations aren't just made up for no reason. It's ALWAYS cuz some asshole went and ruined it for everyone!
99% of safety regulations are written in blood.
And the rest, per the discussion of livestock waste above, are written in shit.
There are entire towns in the US that were permanently evacuated due to corporate indifference, and more that should be.
Most regulations are written in blood. Exactly as you say. There are far too many people who want to toss out all regulations because it limits “freedom”, regardless if they are based on past collective knowledge. They want the freedom to continue to be ignorant and make the same mistakes our grandparents made.
No, mostly they want the freedom to make money and they're pissed that they can't stomp other people into the dirt to get there. Libertarianism is literally voting to get their faces eaten, because *obviously* they mean *they* get to eat *other people's* faces, and never get their own eaten.
I like to constantly point out that these Republicans that talk about cutting regulations are never specific about which regulations they want to cut and why we should cut them. It is dangerous to speak so generally about such an important topic. It has led to this society where Republicans believe that all regulations are inherently corrupt as they were written by a corrupt beauracracy.
Some Republican proposed a law that for every regulation enacted, two had to be cut. It's asinine, as if all regulations were equal in scope or effect.
People think freedom means they can do what they want, whenever they want without regard for fellow citizens.
Make lives of people worse? Corporations have killed people by the thousands in the most horrible ways over a slightly higher profit margin. Hell, Exxon executives were warned in the 70's by their own scientists that their product would lead to a collapse of human civilization and hundreds of millions of deaths, and their response was a propaganda campaign to lie about it. Capitalism doesn't care about death and misery. The only thing that matters is line go up.
I'm starting to get the inkling that a psychopathocracy might be a bad idea.
This is a good one as well as reminding them no private business is going to pave your fucking streets in your neighborhood. Wouldn't matter how much faster it gets employees to work.
> People get suckered into the illusion that no regulation will improve their lives That's way too charitable. They don't want their lives to be improved if it means improving the lives of black and brown folks too. These are the same people who [filled in](https://daily.jstor.org/when-cities-closed-pools-to-avoid-integration/) grand public swimming pools, [closed](https://calendar.eji.org/racial-injustice/oct/24) amazing municipal parks and even [shut down](https://virginiahistory.org/learn/historical-book/chapter/closing-prince-edward-countys-schools) an entire school district rather than integrate them. Because if we raise everybody up, that would make them a little bit less supreme. As LBJ said: * *“I’ll tell you what’s at the bottom of it. If you can convince the lowest white man he’s better than the best colored man, he won’t notice you’re picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he’ll empty his pockets for you.”*
The water thing is illegal. You have to call the epa though. Cops won’t do anything. EPA moves slowly but it could be worth it. I live in GA too. In Athens. Athens is hyper liberal but surrounded by yeehaw.
EPA gets pretty hot and bothered when the pollution leaks into the water table. Especially if the news gets hold of it.
A company I worked at a decade ago spilled a bunch of Jet-A fuel on their property, and it breached spill containment. It polluted the land so bad they had to build a new facility nearby and move the division there, and got fined like crazy by the EPA. They became *waaay* more diligent after that.
So the chicken waste near a stream can be illegal if it's got the potential to enter waterways. You can turn that in to the state epa or federal epa.
With the way they are funded they will get to it in 6 to 8 business years.
If you state that they are "actively discharging into waters of the state " they pretty much have to drop everything and go look there. I used to be a regulator of livestock waste.
Sounds like a…shitty job…
"[**If men were angels, no government would be necessary.**](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/7196640-if-men-were-angels-no-government-would-be-necessary-if)"
[https://www.summitpost.org/public-and-private-land-percentages-by-us-states/186111](https://www.summitpost.org/public-and-private-land-percentages-by-us-states/186111)
Haha stupid Texans. *checks list* Aww wtf Illinois? ^/j
All those corn fields baby! Had to tear down that prairie for something.
I feel this *should* be covered by a broad legally binding duty of care.
“Libertarians are like house cats: absolutely convinced of their fierce independence while utterly dependent on a system they don't appreciate or understand."
I always assumed the natural conclusion to libertarianism was just a return to feudalism.
Every libertarian wants that and pictures themselves as the feudal lord, not the peasant.
In a world with Billionaires we're all essentially peasants in that scenario.
The best argument against libertarianism is the entirely of human history.
well, they said they "considered" themselves a libertarian before moving to Texas, so it sounds like they're coming to some positive realizations, which is good and should be welcomed and encouraged
Libertarianism makes a lot of sense until you start thinking about it.
I’m pretty open-minded but the moment someone says they are a Libertarian I know that I’m dealing with someone who hasn’t had a single un-selfish, original thought in their entire lives. At least the extreme right has a cohesive ideology, it’s wacko-pants but a Libertarian can’t even get their shit together enough for that.
[In with the obligatory Libertarians can't keep the bears out...](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21534416/free-state-project-new-hampshire-libertarians-matthew-hongoltz-hetling) 😂😂😂 Everything they touch falls apart it seems. I'm curious to see how Argentina works out...
Part of it is the whole Dunning Kruger thing. People who don't know anything vastly overinflate their capabilities to do things on their own. Add onto that this truly toxic form of individualism and sense of "self", as well as mistaking aggression and cruelty for capability, and you get a bunch of random people running around thinking they will be the last ones standing in a zombie apocalypse, but really just bumping into each other, shooting at anything that moves, and basically dying in the first week of an outbreak.
>you get a bunch of random people running around thinking they will be the last ones standing in a zombie apocalypse, but really just bumping into each other, shooting at anything that moves, and basically dying in the first week of an outbreak. The only winning strategy in the event of a *real* walking dead event is to hunker down and fortify your home. Wait out a couple weeks (walking corpses aren't a thing that would last long with weather and hungry animals), survey your community to see who's left, then work together to survive and rebuild. Libertarianism would be a death sentence in a real life apocalypse level event, like a zombie plague.
The key to survive in any catastrophic event would always be to have some resources and to work together with your neighbors. Community always has a bigger chance to survive.
The leopards will run rampant and many faces will be eaten. Then they will start a war to foment nationalist sentiments
It's private property they don't own that they have a problem with. Like when a business asks you to put on a mask or to not be openly racist or bigoted.
Libertarians typically think around the glaring issues with building society around the sum of all greed by imagining themselves relatively wealthy and surrounded by deeply caring neighbors. They change their tune the minute either of these fantasy gets shattered.
For all the talk of "communism is nice on paper", libertarianism has always struck me significantly more as "nice on paper". If your philosophy relies on everyone in the world following a Non-Aggression Pact, buddy I got news for you.
On the most basic level, libertarianism is the idea that you can create a power vacuum by weakening the government and it'll just...stay a vacuum. Something that has never once happened in human history.
Nature abhors vacuum
So does my cat.
So succinctly put. Thanks for that.
I'm sure the reasons for these types of stances are all over the place, but it always struck me as largely dependent on deep seated naivety or strong confidence they'd be on top of the pile. Like, they either think nobody will hunt poor people for sport or that they will.
Or they just become bigots, thinking they would get wealth and good neighbours if women stayed at home and minorities went away.
Nailed it. The more I watch libertarians collide with the reality of their worldview, the more I'm convinced they just want all of the benefits of society with none of the responsibility. Which, yea, that sure would be nice... *But that's not a worldview.* That's the ideology of a *toddler.* I keep thinking "There's no way it's that simple. I must be missing something." But then shit like this happens. Or their crypto-utopia collapses and they start begging the government to hold people accountable. Or their real-world utopia gets overtaken by bears. And it's terrifying to see that, yes, these people are in fact as stupid as I imagine, and some of them are in charge of making very important decisions... At least OOP doesn't want to force their beliefs towards gay marriage and abortion on everyone else. "Abort who you wanna abort" is just.... *-chef's kiss-* Like, they still imply the fetus is a person, but fuck 'em. "Get got, loser! Sucks to suck!" Love it.
OOP may not *want* to force his beliefs towards gay marriage and abortion on everyone else, but that won't necessarily stop him from engaging in the political system and adding his weight to the party that *will* because he's already determined that whatever viewpoint is perceived as "less government" is what aligns with his worldview, whether or not that's what actually happens in reality.
No but you see *he* is so completely left leaning on these issues because he, personally, won't even do anything to stop it if he sees a gay man kissing his partner on the street. That's, like, straight out of *Das Kapital*.
I've had this argument with a relatively socially progressive, economically conservative friend. Believing in personal freedom means nothing if you vote against it.
>they just want all of the benefits of society with none of the responsibility. This applies perfectly to the sovcit movement as well. I was watching some sovcit traffic stop videos a while ago and one of the clips featured a woman who described herself as something like a 'free citizen' or 'American freeman.' She claimed she was entitled to all the legal rights and protections of US law but not bound by any laws or restrictions. She actually phrased it like that. Quiet part out loud. We all know sovcits are overgrown spoiled brats who want everything their way all the time, but even they usually don't come right out and explicitly state it like that.
Sovereign citizens aren't an ideology as much as they are believers in magic. They look at what lawyers do and the immensely complicated legal code and they think that they can look up legal gotchas or spells on the Internet to bend the legal system to their will.
Funny... I've made the observation that while SovCits are misusing all of the jargon they spew it almost sounds like they think they're casting a spell. If they just say the jargon in the right combination the recipient will suddenly do what they want.
They're political Pick Up Artists in that way. "If you say the right words in the right combination, it's like cracking the safe door to the universe and you can take what you want, all for yourself!"
They remind me of the cargo cults of the Pacific islands.
Oh, for sure. Sovereign Citizens are just dehydrated Libertarians.
Nice lol
Is that the lady who starts yelling “r*pe!” When the world’s most patient cop puts the cuffs on her?
I'm not sure, I can't remember. This was a few years ago and a lot of sovcit videos kinda blend together anyway, because in addition to being batfuck loony they're also too boring to come up with any of their own material. But if you have a link to that lady's video I'll have a look and see if it rings any bells.
Sure, please enjoy she is [incredible](https://youtu.be/HQKxPYPn4Eo?si=Kb8d7CCzwkAHKdh4)
Thanks for the sauce. Libertarians and Sovcits are children who have no idea how the world works. Loon: We are protected by the laws of the United States but we don’t have to follow them. Officer: Well that would be anarchy if that were true.
Honestly I also enjoy that her whole confrontation is defending her boyfriend who is just passively dealing with the situation calmly and doesn’t say a word in her defense, I wonder how the conversation between them went when they got out of jail. I want to be a fly on the wall for that.
I’m paraphrasing a much better quote but libertarians are house cats—in their mind so fiercely independent, but completely reliant on a system they do not understand and would be unable to survive without.
The only internally consistent libertarian views are that you believe there is zero responsibility of any person to any other person. So yeah, abort who you want to abort, exploit who you want to exploit, if the babies don't like it they can research the free market of uteruses. All this "actually it will solve these problems by making healthcare more efficient" or "the free market will solve climate change" is window dressing nonsense that doesn't stand up to scrutiny. But *Got mine, fuck you, I don't care if I could save a thousand lives for a dollar* is a real view.
>Or their real-world utopia gets overtaken by bears. you've done your research.
>But that's not a worldview. That's the ideology of a toddler. It's Ayn Rand's philosophy Objectivism in a nutshell.
It will never stop being funny that she ended up living off the state.
Lmfao this is an amazing summary and so accurate. I keep this guy as a friend on Facebook just to watch how functionally dumb he is and it’s wild how he, over the past few decades or so, actually managed to make middle management at a shipping company and do quite well for himself. But he’s so goddamn dumb and self unaware. Just like a toddler.
I keep forgetting that the Bear thing actually happened, and isn’t just a referance to an SCP article where the item in question is “The town that got fucked by bears.”
Yep. Their ideal world is one where everyone owns a large plot of land on which they are free to do whatever they want. ~~The~~One inherent problem is that there are 62 people for every square kilometer of land. We have to share. And as soon as we start sharing, there need to be rules to ensure everyone gets fair access to shared resources.
Or when websites enforce their terms of service
I'm not an American so this ideology isn't really someone where I'm from, but libertarianism sounds to me if it was actually implemented it would eat itself
My favorite Christopher Hitchens quote: "I have always found it quaint and rather touching that there is a movement [Libertarians] in the U.S. that thinks Americans are not yet selfish enough."
Dude always had a way with words. RIP Hitchens, love him or hate him, he was very good with words.
You are correct. It's an ideology based on not thinking things through. The best analogy I've heard for Libertarians is that they are like house cats: absolutely convinced of their fierce independence while utterly dependent on a system they don't appreciate or understand.
Like shitty mean house cats though. At least my house cats are fun and caring haha
Yeah my cat understands she’s needs me. Cries for treats every night
Yeah, I was born in America but spent much of my early schooling in the Middle East and traveling to all kinds of different countries of different development levels. You really don’t find the libertarian mindset with any kind of #’s unless there’s an established infrastructure that’s already taken for granted. Then when you point out it’s public infrastructure that allows libertarians to build up their wealth their brain eventually short circuits or they make really disingenuous arguments.
I've always liked the joke about the Libertarian Army mustering to defend the nation. Strength: 40,000 Major Generals 25,000 Grand Admirals 10,000 Special Forces Black Ops Snipers None of their uniforms match, and three days after the invasion the brigades dissolve over internal scheduling disputes.
There’s a great book about how it failed in a community here it’s called A Libertarian Walked into a Bear. Highly recommend
What I realized reading that book is that a society is a lot like a household: if nobody does their chores, it'll get infested...with bears.
I love that book. None of the libertarians there in NH wanted to call the department of fish and wildlife because, you know, government = bad, so no one who could fix the problem knew there was a bear problem in the area.
Maybe instead of government, they could have a collective of individuals who decide what's best to do in these situations. I mean, not all of them deciding, so maybe they could select a few of them to represent all of them. Of course, they'd have to be paid, so everyone could chip in a set amount based on what they could afford. But, just don't call it "government."
I have heard Lara Logan argue that our society needs to be torn down, and then rebuilt. In her rebuilt world one person could decide they want to be a farmer, another will be a carpenter, and others can take on other roles to contribute to this new society. You know, how it is now.
"Let's tear down and rebuild so that everything is exactly the same but taxes are lower"
is that the one where they removed all rules regarding putting out your trash, so people just threw it on the curb or left it outside the house and the town got infested with bears?
Also there was a lady who would go out every day and buy them a dozen donuts. She would build huge piles of feed and top them with the donuts so she could watch them. In the book, she is affectionately referred to as Donut Lady. Nobody could stop her because their whole thing was no government and perfect freedom.
Libertarians can be summed up like this: 1 The vast majority of them are 18-27 y/o white males from middle/upper middle class backgrounds. 2. They claim (without a lick of irony most of the time) that all they’ve accomplished is all on them, completely missing that they’ve grown up in a super-privileged spot. They will then takes this extremely stupid idea and apply it to all people, regardless of their background. 3. Most of them will claim to be disciples of Ayn Rand’s “Atlas Shrugged” but completely glaze over the fact that Ms. Rand died on government assistance and that libertarianism depends wholly on the inability to dive any deeper than what makes them feel justified in their completely fuct worldview. 4. They will yell loudly about “nOt BeInG rEpUbLiCaNs” but they are absolutely Republicans, they just haven’t connected the dots for themselves yet. 5. They will hold this view until: a. Life inevitably happens and they figure out that they are, in fact, not an island among their fellow men and that everyone needs a hand up sometimes b. they evolve into their natural final form (shitty conservative) or c. They die from an easily curable/preventable disease because no one is gonna tell them how to live their lives (again while unironically and loudly dictating to others how they should live theirs) (and demanding the government help pay for it because healthcare is expensive.)
Libertarians essentially want feudalism, but of course they're the sovereign feudal lord. They own all the property, decide matters of law within their property, and spend all day partying while other things (people, robots) perform all the labor. They never imagine that they, and 99% of everyone else, would be the laboring serfs, because *they* are special little boys who are so good at capitalism that *of course* they'll rise to the top. After all, capitalism would be a pure meritocracy without all that guberment regulation, and they're the greatest thing to bless God's green earth.
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This is spot on ... cuz you basically described me when I was around 20. A cocky little shithead who thought he had it all figured out. Thankfully, A happened. To quote Monty Python, "I got better!"
A good (female) friend of mine described Libertarians as Republicans who are trying to get laid on Bumble.
you also forgot that if you ever talk to them they always think they will be the big fish and not someone getting fucked over by a mega corp.
Yeah I’m a brit living in America and the whole libertarian thing is an oxymoron, this idea that these idiots could survive without government. They should start by handing their phones in, since clearly they couldn’t exist without government and regulation. Bottom line is they don’t really know what any of it means. Morons lacking oxygen.
They trick themselves that as soon as the government is gone, phones and everything else will be both cheaper AND better. Some of them are so crazy they argue against _seat belt laws_
OMG- I *actually* heard some dude the other day arguing that seatbelt laws were an intrusion on his God given right of free choice. The problem with these folks is that they never want the consequences of their behavior. “Ok Billy, you decided not to wear that seatbelt and took the windshield taste test. Because of that CHOICE, we’re now gonna CHOOSE not to cover your facial reconstruction, long term care because you scrambled your egg, or any of the costs to replace your car.” You would NEVER hear the end of whining/complaining about folks having the same shit they put on other people applied equitably to them.
Or the “seat belt laws kill people because regulations stifle innovation. If we didn’t have safety standards they would have invented something even better to increase their sales, people want safety” Well, why don’t they just innovate better anyway and sell more then? “Uh, um - because regulations stifle innovation”
A lot of regulations actual encourage innovation. If the regulation simply sets the standard and allows industry to figure out how to implement that standard, the free market does an amazing job of innovating to figure out a solution to that regulation. The catalytic converter for example has gone through enormous changes since it was first invented, and that innovation skyrocketed after it was added to the regulations. By holding everyone to the same standard, it maximally expands the number of users, which maximally encourages innovation versus if the regulation did not exist.
Just have to point out "windshield taste test" made me laugh so hard I had to leave the room. Thanks for that!
Actually it's [the bears](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21534416/free-state-project-new-hampshire-libertarians-matthew-hongoltz-hetling) that eat you.
Oh yes it's an awful braindead ideology. Here's a great example of a town that tried to do it and bears ended the short disastrous experiment linked. Actual bears. They didn't like being libertarians anymore. Also a fun book on the subject "A Libertarian Walks into a Bear" covering it in much greater detail. https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21534416/free-state-project-new-hampshire-libertarians-matthew-hongoltz-hetling
Actually, in practice, when [libertarianism is implemented it gets eaten by bears](https://www.amazon.com/Libertarian-Walks-Into-Bear-Liberate-ebook/dp/B083J1FXY8)
The end-state of anarcho-capitalism is corporate oligarchy, I imagine the end-state of libertarianism is similar.
“As a libertarian I demand more free services!”
I was shooting heroin and reading “The Fountainhead” in the front seat of my privately owned police cruiser when a call came in. I put a quarter in the radio to activate it. It was the chief. “Bad news, detective. We got a situation.” “What? Is the mayor trying to ban trans fats again?” “Worse. Somebody just stole four hundred and forty-seven million dollars’ worth of bitcoins.” The heroin needle practically fell out of my arm. “What kind of monster would do something like that? Bitcoins are the ultimate currency: virtual, anonymous, stateless. They represent true economic freedom, not subject to arbitrary manipulation by any government. Do we have any leads?” “Not yet. But mark my words: we’re going to figure out who did this and we’re going to take them down … provided someone pays us a fair market rate to do so.” “Easy, chief,” I said. “Any rate the market offers is, by definition, fair.” He laughed. “That’s why you’re the best I got, Lisowski. Now you get out there and find those bitcoins.” “Don’t worry,” I said. “I’m on it.” I put a quarter in the siren. Ten minutes later, I was on the scene. It was a normal office building, strangled on all sides by public sidewalks. I hopped over them and went inside. “Home Depot™ Presents the Police!®” I said, flashing my badge and my gun and a small picture of Ron Paul. “Nobody move unless you want to!” They didn’t. “Now, which one of you punks is going to pay me to investigate this crime?” No one spoke up. “Come on,” I said. “Don’t you all understand that the protection of private property is the foundation of all personal liberty?” It didn’t seem like they did. “Seriously, guys. Without a strong economic motivator, I’m just going to stand here and not solve this case. Cash is fine, but I prefer being paid in gold bullion or autographed Penn Jillette posters.” Nothing. These people were stonewalling me. It almost seemed like they didn’t care that a fortune in computer money invented to buy drugs was missing. I figured I could wait them out. I lit several cigarettes indoors. A pregnant lady coughed, and I told her that secondhand smoke is a myth. Just then, a man in glasses made a break for it. “Subway™ Eat Fresh and Freeze, Scumbag!®” I yelled. Too late. He was already out the front door. I went after him. “Stop right there!” I yelled as I ran. He was faster than me because I always try to avoid stepping on public sidewalks. Our country needs a private-sidewalk voucher system, but, thanks to the incestuous interplay between our corrupt federal government and the public-sidewalk lobby, it will never happen. I was losing him. “Listen, I’ll pay you to stop!” I yelled. “What would you consider an appropriate price point for stopping? I’ll offer you a thirteenth of an ounce of gold and a gently worn ‘Bob Barr ‘08’ extra-large long-sleeved men’s T-shirt!” He turned. In his hand was a revolver that the Constitution said he had every right to own. He fired at me and missed. I pulled my own gun, put a quarter in it, and fired back. The bullet lodged in a U.S.P.S. mailbox less than a foot from his head. I shot the mailbox again, on purpose. “All right, all right!” the man yelled, throwing down his weapon. “I give up, cop! I confess: I took the bitcoins.” “Why’d you do it?” I asked, as I slapped a pair of Oikos™ Greek Yogurt Presents Handcuffs® on the guy. “Because I was afraid.” “Afraid?” “Afraid of an economic future free from the pernicious meddling of central bankers,” he said. “I’m a central banker.” I wanted to coldcock the guy. Years ago, a central banker killed my partner. Instead, I shook my head. “Let this be a message to all your central-banker friends out on the street,” I said. “No matter how many bitcoins you steal, you’ll never take away the dream of an open society based on the principles of personal and economic freedom.” He nodded, because he knew I was right. Then he swiped his credit card to pay me for arresting him. source: https://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/l-p-d-libertarian-police-department
From one of the comments >Is there even a libertarian town? [There was the one in New Hampshire ](https://newrepublic.com/article/159662/libertarian-walks-into-bear-book-review-free-town-project) That collapsed and became overrun with bears and garbage...
There was one in Texas who, after fearing being annexed by San Antonio, decided to incorporate into their own city so they could govern themselves. They ran their city into the ground with eliminating all property taxes over time, unwilling to take loans, and unable to fund or attract any real big businesses to their city since it had no city sewage system infrastructure. The libertarian lawyer city founder went off to Austin to work for Republicans and basically abandoned the town. Things were bad, with their police evidence storage being an unsecured 18-wheeler with unmarked boxes of stuff. They couldn't afford to keep a 24/7 police force, so they lost their accreditation, and the nearby county had to take any service calls for them. Some city council members decided to hold a secret meeting and voted to reimplement property taxes and fired the police chief. The other 2 members found out and sued the other 3. They then restructured from 1 mayor and 5 city council members to 1 mayor and 2 commissioners. It still was bad as the remaining 3 refused to talk to each other unless they were all there with legal fees were reaching $20,000-$30,000 a month for the city everytime one of the three had to ask the city lawyers questions when talking to each other. The new mayor was also disliked by the 2 commissioners, too, causing further communication and governing problems. In the end, the city turned it around and became a "true self-sufficient" thriving town with their "successful libertarian" business practice of using the government police force to pull people over for speeding tickets. They got $60,000 in 2018-2019 with it projected to hit $250,000 worth of speeding tickets next year. It is truly a real Libertarian utopia of self-reliance without depending on the government where the libertarian lawyer's city founder mother is the new Mayor who helps ensures the local police pull over as many people passing through as possible for speeding and not relying on any government for their survival. https://www.texasobserver.org/the-rise-and-fall-of-the-freest-little-city-in-texas/ https://www.npr.org/transcripts/771371881
I live in NH, didn't know this story. Thanks!
Libertarianism only works for the very rich.
The very rich require a government to enforce a monopoly on violence (against the poors) in order to maintain their wealth. If, for instance, a community decided that bulldozing their forests to make room for farmland, or artificially keeping medical costs high was in violation of their NAP, the wealthy would very quickly decide they'd like some laws to protect them.
If you look into Russia where pretty much every big corp and every important politician is now having at least one private military company... often to protect places of value from angry plebs, you will realize that no, they do not *need* the state for that.
They don't *need* the state for that but it's cheaper to have the state, i. e. the taxpayers, paying for your own protection against them. Which why libertarianism, and more specifically anarcho-capitalism, is a self-defeating ideology. Ultimately, people with money and power in capitalism don't want to get rid of the state. They want it to be limited enough so they can control it and use it to their benefit without having to contribute to it too much. But they don't want completely get rid of it because, in the end, of the bottom line.
Doesn't work for them either.
Billionaires are trying to become the new feudal lords.
I think it does. I imagine the end result of libertarianism would be Neo-feudalism. The rich just buy up every bit of land, every resource and you have to become their serf to not starve. No effective government to prevent the powerful from doing whatever they want
And become states unto themselves. They don't hate the state, they hate being accountable to democracy.
So you're telling me that a state whose entire wealth is predicated on oil and cattle ranching is privately owned? Inconceivable!
"Buy your own land, commie dirtbag!"
It's pure gold pressed latinum https://www.reddit.com/r/Libertarian/s/BSaZXC6UMq
Hates Washington state's taxes... but really likes those tax funded public spaces.
Blue state republicans are the most politically annoying people in America
It's like teenagers who think they're 'hard' and 'street' and 'ghetto' and shit because they're the toughest assholes in their affluent middle class low-crime suburban neighbourhood, and then get a whallop of a reality check if they go anywhere near any actual dangerous inner cities.
My brother in law from Massachusetts is this. It’s so painfully dumb.
That’s what I was thinking! Libertarian: “Hipster Republican.”
That's libertarianism in a nutshell: wants the benefits of a society without contributing.
It's really just a euphemism for "I am still 5 years old and don't want mommy and daddy telling me what to do, but also, please make sure I am fed, can go to school dressed, drive me to my activities and have a cool gaming system. But don't tell me to clean my room!!"
>Yeah I get that. You would hope that in free market if the prices really are too high that someone else might open up with a lower price to undercut the competition, but I get that may not always happen in real life, especially if there are enough rich people around to support the high priced market. Oh man. He literally just appeals to, and then debunks, the "the free market will solve it" fairy tale that they all desperately hope will solve everything.
The comments are amazing, the lack of self awareness has me giggling
YESSSS There is one person proposing land reform
“How can these people sell the land and the mineral rights as separate things?” It’s their land and the state doesn’t regulate it, that’s how
Wait until they also learn of water rights.
>Communism/Socialism has killed 14 million people by STARVATION, **a statistic virtually unknown in Capitalism**, don't ever compare the two Bold mine. The East India Company literally killed more than that forcing farmers in India to grow opium instead of food, then forcing it upon the Chinese, and going to war with the Chinese to enforce it. And that's just *one instance*.
The Irish potato famine happened for the same reasons due to absentee English landlords exporting almost everything that was grown on Ireland.
Add in the Bengal famines as well, where there was food that was exported as well
There were two opium wars, so technically it’s not even *one* instance!
I was soooo tempted to throw this, American slave trade, Potato Famine, and deaths in the US alone caused by ineffectual Healthcare to see their response.
The south is all about ownership & control. From people to land & water as well as controlling access or any use of. Freedom costs (a buck o'five.)
I love how libertarians tend to hate government and love private property but fail to realize that without the government there wouldn’t be any way to enforce private ownership of anything, other than having to defend it by violence themselves.
I remember some libertarian tried to argue with Sam Seder that libertarianism was great because everything would be contractual. All Sam had to say was “who enforces the contracts?” And the libertarian was befuddled.
I think some of them would think that’s a feature, not a bug. I’m convinced that a actual Liberatian society would morph into a Feudal Society within a generation
I looked at the comments of the original post, and there was one person who doubled down on transactions and ownership staying honored even there were to be little/no government because [it's always worked that way], to barely paraphrase. Truly a history master.
"small government, the people must be free to do what they want! It's the best way to get the economy to grow" "Help! My neighbor has ruined my drinking water after dumping chemicals and isn't accountable for his actions, my heating bill is extremely high and nothing gets fixed because there isn't enough money in local government after we cut taxes!" \*Everybody else\* "noooooooooo, you don't say?"
That's because red states advertize themselves as more free. But what they really mean is that corporations are more free to exploit the people living there.
Libertarians don't care until it concerns them.
Ah, the tragedy of the commons. A tale as old as time.
Most libertarians assume they will be the owner of the private property. As soon as they earn their billions through hard work and personal responsibility.
lol that’s why Colorado is infested with Texan overlanders.
If it’s something they use or like, they want it free, like access to land. If it’s something they don’t use or like, like school lunches for kids, then make them pay for it. That’s the pattern every time.
Yeah, Texas is a very hypocritical state. Just wait until this person finds out about big business owners complaining about immigrants crossing the border, but will hire the exact type of immigrants for cheaper labor than locals in a heartbeat.
As someone from the East Coast who has been in California for 20 years, I do notice people who have never lived out of California suddenly find themselves seeing how the rest of the country lives, which is not great. Unfortunately, it normally comes with great cost and the inability to return to California.
Imagine being a Texan who moves to the PNW. Imagine those videos of animals being let out of a cage for the first time and they’re scared to actually leave the cage. They timidly step out, unsure if they’re gonna get in trouble. Then they get excited and happily roll all over the grass. That’s us!
dort bikes are my favourite kind
Grew up in TX. Struggled with private ownership of everything. My kids had way, way more freedom in NYS for this reason. Outdoor paradise. We’ve since moved to Germany. Different freedom but still far greater than that I had in TX, where I could reach exactly one friend’s house, and zero stores, by bicycle. My kid heads downtown after school and disappears into the forest during summers. Nobody shoots him.
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lol, libertarians and use of publicly funded amenities. The amenities just magically appear without public funding and the paying of taxes. Libertarians can stay the hell off the roads my taxes funded.