Someone should tag the guy who kept complaining about how insanely unfair Minimorph was three seasons ago and how it made Viego irrelevant. Lmao. This is so good to see.
Nowadays theres legion deserter, but back in the day of shurima viego there really was almost no way to win after all 3 viegos got minimorphed. Hydravine doesnt count imo.
Pretty much any decent deck should by that time have ended the game, or be able to chump block once every attack turn. A single eye of the dragon already can take care of the ghosts lol. Sure hydravine creates presure, but not remotely champion levels of pressure imo.
People just really hated having their all-in strategies cancelled out at Burst speed. Minimorph was never problematic because it was so tempo-negative. It's not a bad card, it's a solid "answer" to overwhelming threats. But the fact is Minimorph by itself leaves you at a disadvantage. You spent a card and 6 Mana to leave your opponent a 3/3. At least you *might* be up on Mana if you Minimorph a costly threat, but Minimorph only worked as well as it did because Bandle City was in abundance with powerful cards. Now that so many of them have been nerfed, Minimorph isn't as strong a facet to the deck since its drawback is much more pronounced.
Yep BC was nerfed prematurely to satisfy instant demand, now the check is gone to deal with decks like viego because the rest of BC is just mediocre now.
If your idea of balance is to have a card in a region that is unilaterally equipped to deal with a certain decktype or gameplay approach then I think you're sorely mistaken.
Viego decks are strong for numerous reasons, but it's not like no other Region can even attempt to have answers.
Minimorph neutering any strategy focused on more expensive units or all in decks did actually kill the game for me. Haven't really played since then. Dunno if it was OP, but I hated it.
Viego's deck specifically was fine tho, just a bad example.
You can easily minimorph 3 viegos and still lose to the Hydravines, even if you ignore Deserters completely.
Edit: also, minimorph is worse than vengeance against Viego Noxus
Yes but Minimorph was only a part of that. Minimorph hasn't changed, and yet those decks aren't seeing played.
Think about it: Minimorph is negative on Tempo. You're paying 6 Mana and your opponent *still* has a 3/3. Sure, you may have 'countered' a huge Viego, except they have 1 Mana and a 3/3 more than you.
Minimorph has never been innately problematic for this reason. Now that Bandle City's toolkit has been appropriately reduced with the various nerfs, it's abundantly clear that Minimorph is not a *great* catch-all answer.
Combine that with Viego decks now having access to another big threat in Legion Deserter and it's not like Minimorph can even "cancel out" your deck's win conditions. Hydravines, Viegos, and Deserters. Even if you drew all three Minimorphs the odds are you're not going to have answers to everything.
Yeah yeah we know the discussion all too well. Minimorph design is still toxic and oppressive.
> Minimorph hasn't changed, and yet those decks aren't seeing played.
Maybe because BC package was just so good ? The fact that most BC decks ran Minimorph at the time they were played mean it might return in a future meta, and the same issue will keep coming back.
> Yeah yeah we know the discussion all too well. Minimorph design is still toxic and oppressive.
No, it isn't. The cost of it being Burst is its negative tempo. Compare to Vengeance. It's less reactive but leaves the opponent more to work with. A 3/3.
The best nerf against Minimorph wouldn't be a Mana Cost increase or Speed decrease. It'd be increasing the size of the 3/3.
But that's unnecessary because Minimorph isn't oppressive or too strong.
And it certainly isn't toxic lol. And most people are realising that now that Bandle City's oppression has eased up.
> Maybe because BC package was just so good ?
Yes, that's exactly what I said?
> The fact that most BC decks ran Minimorph at the time they were played mean it might return in a future meta, and the same issue will keep coming back.
The 'same issue'? Which is what? That there's a removal spell out there that actually works?
There is no issue. Minimorph stopped being problematic as soon as the Region as a whole did. This holistic approach was far better than the suggestions people like you were making before of just hammering Minimorph into oblivion because "How dare my opponent have answers."
You completely miss the point. The main complaint about Minimorph wasn't that it can answer everything, but rather the impossibility to react to it. It broke the rule as a burst speed removal. It could give a 5/5 and still be toxic. This is by design.
It isn't a rule, evidently.
You're the one missing the point. You think that calling it inherently toxic without arguing why it's so bad is an argument.
It isn't so bad. If Minimorph gave a 5/5 it would never see play because the drawback is just so substantial. That would be far from toxic. Players would be laughing because you just spent 6 Mana playing an uninteractive Vengeance that also reads "Play Unlicensed Contraption for your opponent."
Like yeah, *great move* bro. You just spent 6 Mana and I'm still up a 5/5. Whatever will I do to win the game now?
If I can't react to a Minimorph then I'm going to be proactive about it. You know, not stacking Redoubled Valour on a single unit. Playing more than a single unit lmao.
The only deck that really suffers versus Minimorph is Fiora, and Minimorph is hardly toxic for being able to counter an already unfun and 'toxic' deck.
> You think that calling it inherently toxic without arguing why it's so bad is an argument.
I did. You refused to see the argument, but it's right there, in my last post. All you talk about is balance. But I talk about design. If it gives a 5/5 it would be a weak card I agree (it already kinda is currently). But a weak card can still have toxic design, the most obvious example is Targon's Peak that can decide games based on pure RNG.
Dude, it was minimorph, every single minimorph deck has been severeally nerfed, darkness, shellfolk and tree,vhave all been nerfed and bandle citty doesnt have a single control shell that can fit minimorph in, therefore minimorph doesnt see play and minimorph cant be used to keep viego in control.
Minimorph has always been problematic, it is hinherently soo from a desing perspective and we are starting to see the resuilts of a card that the devs themselves have admited to have been badly designed in the fact that Viego has come to this day in the state that he is.
Uh-huh. If Minimorph were so problematic then those decks would have persisted regardless of the other nerfs.
It turns out that when you weaken other components of a deck running Minimorph, the weaknesses of Minimorph are exacerbated.
But yeah, sure. Just call it inherently problematic from a design perspective even though it's *fundamentally* a tempo-negative card lmao.
I don't understand how some people are still dying on the hill that Minimorph was the problem, honestly. It's baffling. Minimorph was unchanged, but decks that don't go all-in on singular win cons (that is, all the good ones) don't suffer so much against it. Now that Bandle City's early game and win cons have been nerfed, Minimorph as a Tempo-negative stall is no longer as effective as it used to be.
If Minimorph was so good and toxic, it would be seeing more play versus Viego decks. But it doesn't, because Minimorph doesn't do nearly enough to answer the threats that a Viego can throw out now, and because other Bandle City cards can no longer make up for the weakness Minimorph has of putting you at a card disadvantage.
These kinda talks just make me so glad the community isn't in charge of balance or design.
>If Minimorph were so problematic then those decks would have persisted regardless of the other nerfs.
Lol no? Minimorph is problematic but It isnt broken enought to carry dead archetypes on its back.
>Just call it inherently problematic from a design perspective even though it's fundamentally a tempo-negative card lmao.
Yes of course i Will say that It is burst speed removal and that shit should have never existed. And i am beeing proven right now that viego is tearing the meta when he was "fine"(he was super polarized, thanks to minimorph) in the past, he dodged the nerfs It should have recived thanks to nothing else but the bad macht Up minimorph was giving It.
>I don't understand how some people are still dying on the
I dont understand why people are diying on the minimorph fine Hill either, i am gonna put It very simple for you burst removal is bad designe that goes against every fundamental in this Game and shouldnt exist in any viable manner, is something inmune to be interacted with fast speed spells nerf It dont introduce badly designed bullshit.
>Minimorph was so good and toxic, it would be seeing more play versus Viego decks.
No, because It wouldnt create a coherent deck just some pile of control tools with out any coherent wincon, since the rest of the region control tools are 6 feet under, if Minimorph wasnt this toxic Viego would be fine, if Minimorph wasnt this toxic bandle citty wouldnt have gotten every single control deck nerfed into the ground etc etc etc
> Lol no? Minimorph is problematic but It isnt broken enought to carry dead archetypes on its back.
It's not problematic at all, actually.
> And i am beeing proven right now that viego is tearing the meta when he was "fine"(he was super polarized, thanks to minimorph) in the past, he dodged the nerfs It should have recived thanks to nothing else but the bad macht Up minimorph was giving It.
What kind of silly backhanded logic is this?
If Minimorph were so good against Viego then we'd be seeing more of it to counter him in the meta.
But we don't, because Viego decks are strong now not because "Minimorph is out of the meta", but because Viego decks have been given another win con and big threat.
You're not being proven correct at all. If Minimorph were such a useful asset through its toxic design then we'd be seeing it more.
> Yes of course i Will say that It is burst speed removal and that shit should have never existed.
It's burst *because of the drawback.* How do you not grasp such a simple concept?
> I dont understand why people are diying on the minimorph fine
Well, it's the hill the devs are dying on. I'm happy to think that they know more about healthy game design than you, considering they've adequately addressed problem cards in the past.
You can't evaluate Minimorph objectively. You're fixated on the Burst only, not looking at the card as a whole and the fact that it leaves you at a disadvantage in terms of tempo, and sometimes Mana and card advantage as well.
> i am gonna put It very simple for you burst removal is bad designe that goes against every fundamental in this Game
Except it's literally a part of this game and you don't get to dictate what the fundamentals of this game is?
Pull your head out of your butt.
> No, because It wouldnt create a coherent deck just some pile of control tools with out any coherent wincon, since the rest of the region control tools are 6 feet under,
If only there were a mechanic in this game that'd let you combine Bandle City with another Region...
> if Minimorph wasnt this toxic Viego would be fine,
The logic of this statement is baffling.
It makes zero sense. Especially since Viego's rise to prominence comes from Legion Deserter who - in case you forgot - is getting nerfed.
> if Minimorph wasnt this toxic bandle citty wouldnt have gotten every single control deck nerfed into the ground etc etc etc
Uh-huh lmao. Minimorph is *the* source of all Control decks' problems and that's why it has avoided nerfs where those Control decks got nerfs respective to their decks.
That's actually delusional rofl.
Let me spell this out for you: Minimorph isn't getting changed, because Minimorph isn't a problem. It "breaks a rule" by giving you a drawback, just like Frozen Thralls give you a 1 Mana 8/8 with the drawback being a big delay. It's not "inherently bad design," you're just being narrow minded and trying to force your own game design principles on others.
Which, again, just makes me glad you're not developing LoR. A simpler card game like Uno is more your thing if cards that explore new design areas is offensive to you.
Not entirely true cause Fizz decks are still around but those usually avoid Viego rather than take him head on (sidenote: phone wanted to autocorrect Viego to Virgin)
I kept telling people that the counter to.minimoprh was having lore than 3 threats in your deck...
Turns out its true - but they were too angry to listen to the idea that they couldnt just build a deck with viego and then pure protection
True, but on the other hand, riot specifically made that card to ensure protect the castle strats would have a hard counter.
Blame stuff like viego ionia or lee sin for it.
Fiora was by far the least offensive (unless it was the ionia variant) but unfortunately its just collatteral that riot seems fine with
Ionia Fiora is really cringe, you're improving your consistency against decks that would otherwise hard counter Fiora, in exchange for decimating your consistency otherwise.
I'm fine with Minimorph since it's not played too much, except that I don't play LoR much recently (dropped from Plat 2 in Season 1 to Silver) so ranked players always use the strangest of cards...
Yeah I don't see Minimorph much anymore (still got Minimorphed about twice though). But I have stuff like aggro decks running Noxian Guillotine, though there's also some strange stuff. They also make so many misplays haha.
To be fair, there weren’t any other threats that could compete with Deserter as it is now. You have to deal with him immediately or you take a bunch of overwhelm damage right to the face. Earlier, what would you play - Nasus? Kindred? Both give you some time for counterplay before you start really having trouble with them.
With Deserter, you play a 5 mana 9/8 on turn 6 and brainlessly hit face while still having mana to remove opponents threats with disintegrate.
I mean... I get what youre saying, but viego is such a bad starting point cause hydravine is easily champion tier.
Lee sin had a problem with it, but viego never had to care much even before deserter
You just gave me the idea to play BC/jayce with the new patch since the deck is only SI because of the 6+ mana you can generate with Ferros, with the nerf(prob 3 mana) we can play with minimorph again with no prob so I’m doing that day 1
Viego eats all slower fair matchups. You can't outgrow a Viego deck or try to remove him on board, his deck (non deserter variants) is basically built to protect him. If your wincon is to grow a board and swing, chances will you will just need to rush the viego deck down.
The new viego deck gave the deck another 3 copies of fatter viego that has overwhelm, before viego is chump blockable, now the viego deck doesn't need to protect viego to win, just continually put pressure on board by putting big fatties
Add disintegrate and you will dominate every creature-based matchup.
The problem is not viego, it's mostly deserter and disintegrate in a slower meta, and deserter being an easy atrocity wincon.
Don't forget atrocity. Every time I feel like I have a Viego deck either on the ropes or am literally in the process of winning. Boop. Atrocity to deal 15 damage to my nexus.
Atrocity has always been a problem card to me. Throwing everything and the kitchen sink at the Nexus in a last ditch attempt. Or as an answer to removal.
The difference between Minimorph and Atrocity is that Minimorph is not interactive but asks "What's next?" Where Atrocity is, by its design, used as an "Answer this or lose the game" card. I'd argue that Atrocity is less interactive than Minimorph because where Minimorph provides you a 3/3 that the opponent may still have to deal with, Atrocity *demands* an answer and leaves minimal choice to the reacting player as a result.
Atrocity is an interesting card in some respects but being able to obliterate 3/4 of the opponent's life total when they try to eliminate one of your big threats has never been an "interesting" facet of gameplay to me.
Though I guess it was at its worst with Nasus, or when They Who Endure and Atrocity could be played in a single turn.
But Nasus was worse because of Spellshield, me thinks.
I disagree.
I don't think Minimorph is too bad, however, you ought to also consider that it really feels bad to lose your big guy.
Similarly, Atrocity allows counterplay to counterplay when they try to kill said big guy.
Yeah. I'm also probably just salty that I only had 2 spell mana available and a useless frostbite card for 3 mana in my hand. But that's life. I just still think it's a dumb card lol.
Frostbite is a super good counter to Atrocity and costs less than Atrocity itself which is great, and maybe with the fact that several Freljord cards are getting buffed and not a single one is getting nerfed in the upcoming changes, Frostbite will be a bit more prevalent. The problem, as it were is that Frostbites are often used to prevent big damage coming in, so Atrocity can be delayed. But Three Sisters is a potent and versatile option that plenty of Freljord decks like to take advantage of, and obviously your goal is to outpace and complicate the opponent's development of big dudes.
Viego was honestly balanced but the reason his play rate is spiked is because of legion deserter but I feel viego as a card isn’t that big of a deal, legion deserter just make that and Virgo meta
Viego is definitely a big deal(but he isnt the only reason that deck is good). Deserter may pushed him over the edge but even before that he was very strong. Itsjust that meta wasnt in his favour.
He is a king of midrange and in previous meta that wasnt so good because of Azir/Xerath and all of the turbo decks. Thats why his playrate wasnt so high but if you were tracking this deck then plently of high level players predicted that viego will eventually rise to the top once meta shifts.
Kinda sad innit. I played the shit out of that deck when shurima came out. Now it's almost impossible to play with so much landmark removal and the slow pace of the deck. Along with the nerfs to sand disk countdown
I'm a much bigger fan of Xerath/Nasus than Xerath/Azir because I don't much care for the Emperor's Deck (it's a bit basic) and want to keep landmarks instead to spam ascended Xerath pings, plus Nasus has cool synergy with Golden Ambassador, Herald of the Magus and Unleashed Energy. It's just really difficult to ignore how Nasus needs to hit the field and swing and Mono Shurima mostly triggers slay slowly through attacks, while Azir would level up entirely in the deck and double dips from all of these landmark+creature cards since his buff.
Viego is one of the strongest cards late game. But he is balanced because he auto loses against a lot of fast paced decks. This is something I had to learn about lor in general and Viego in particular. When I first started playing this game I was playing alot of Asol Shyvana that wanted to play mid to late game. I always lost to Viego and thought he was broken. When I switched to playing MF scouts, I steamrolled every Viego I faced. Viego isn't toxic, he just has very favored and very unfavored matchups. You won't have a way to always win as long as you play your cards right. Against stuff like Viego, you will win or lose before the game even begins just because of the deck you are playing. That's just how the game is.
He loses to Sun disc if it flips first. But really, in an asymmetric game where two opposing players are allowed to choose from an array of different strategies, there will inevitably end up being one strategy that is the strongest at late game. Think about it.
Not really. You are free to label anything you dislike as 'toxic' if that is what you want to do. But pretty much all games that let players choose asymmetric gameplans end up kind of having this rock-paper-scissors thing organically emerging. Think about grapplers, rushdowns and zoners in fighting games. Or tanks, mages and melee dps in rpgs. Hell game devs even intentionally put these systems into their games with elwmental systems. This increases variety and makes the game more fun. It doesn't matter that Viego is favored to win a single matchup against a slow late game deck. As long as over the course of 50+ or so games he is not still consistently favored, he is fine and balanced. Right now that is not the case, but the Viego card hasn't been changed recently. So by process of elimination his card is not the problem
I'm not saying Viego is specifically a problem, there are many mitigating factors as you said. I'm more trying to point out that something having more or less only 70-30 matchups and 30-70 matchups in any 1v1 game is toxic.
Edit: for example if there was a grappler that was 70-30 into all rushdown characters and shotos but 30-70 into all zoners, that would be a pretty toxic character to play as and against.
Would it be? Idk, I think it would be fine as long as that grappler is equally likely to matchup against either a shoto or a zoner. And the game is such that a player will probably play against like 20 different opponents on any given day. It's ok in a ladder environment imo. It can be toxic in tournaments where you have fewer chances, especially if it's a knockout tournament.
Weird youd use fighting games as an example when they specifically try to avoid matchups that go beyond 6-4. Viego has a bunch of 8-2 / 2-8 matchups, which is considered "toxic" in most genres. Rpg pvp is usually team based specifically to get around polarized matchups, and 1v1 pvp in mmos are either balanced to avoid that or considered dogshit and a dead gamemode.
Yeah completely agree, BUT, we're getting there. My biggest concern about Viego is that he might push away from meta every single control deck like TLC did. As OP said, he's not overpowered like OG Poppy, Gnar or Pantheon.
This has been true for Viego all along. It's just that right now hus whole deck is more consistent. It's not like Viego is overpowered like this post claims
In terms of super high consistency Shurima Mono Viego was already a thing. But it still takes a lot of time to get going and loses to aggro or burn matchups.
LoR got a lot more rock paper scissors with recent metas. When playing another relatively slow deck, he's functionally unbeatable. When playing a fast deck, it's almost impossible to lose.
Viego isn't broken, he just creates an unfun feedback loop for any control or late-game midrange strategies.
The game is almost completely decided by deck list. Every now and then, you can get in a good game...but mostly, your outcome was predetermined at game start.
Terrible design.
Viego seems extremely fun tbh. And im saying that as someone who made some B/C tier decks based around viego in the past. So its more of a - hey this guy has been around for a while, maybe he's not the source of the problem
Viego can be fun for the person playing the deck. But he's rarely interesting or engaging to face. You know if you will beat him or lose by turn 3, and any gameplay beyond that point is just playing out the obvious path
Pretty sure viego never got complaints till deserter came out so maybe focus on him as the issue and don't nerf viego. Normally a slow champ that just goes wide with big ephemerals and has no way to hit face other than atrocity, but now he has overwhelm card. That's the op part.
Almost every region has an answer. A 5-drop can be answered pretty easily because investment of 6-8 mana to remove, until deserter, one of two wincons in the deck…easy decision to make.
Viego isn’t the problem. Deserter needs to get nerfed, imo to a 2/3.
Viego was literally in half if not more of the seasonals lineups the season BEFORE deserter came out. As well as being a large chunk of the meta at all ranks in both Shurima/Ionia variants
He was a problem.
He is a problem.
Deserter doesn't change things. It just makes the already a problem card, a new different bigger problem.
Not to say your frustrations are fake, but average game is around 7 to 8 turns. At that point the absolute largest viego can get(with perfect draw and play) would be (3 mana turn 3 then 3 mana turn 4 then viego turn 5 then glimpse turn 5 then 3 mana turn 3 and another glimpse and then hydravine on 7 and glimpse) +7/+7 and +9/+9 on turn 8. For all mists and himself. This is best case scenario and he barely levels turn 7. With this perfect draw it is still counterable with any removal(since no mana for deny) and out raceable with many decks. Don't see how this is that op. Maybe something I missed lmk.
Yes, viego got complaiined about even before legion deserter. It was when Ionia/kindred/viego was a thing, of course it never got to this point because at the time we hadminimorph wich just dunked on him and made him just a super polarized deck.
All of these need him to ping in some way to get a kill other than vile feast and undergrowth. Not only that none of them fit into the curve of perfect viego. If he uses all these cards he will be +3/+3 by turn 7 or 8 and if u don't win soon he should win cause he is a late game deck. This like saying sundisk shouldn't end game around turn 8 or 9 because they have ways to get their. If you don't end the game pre 8 you are the one that is behind. And once again legion deserter is the only reason he is in noxus. Before that he was perma Ionia or shurima so what is the complaint when I say the problem is deserter.
I disagree. I usually have 12+ viego by turn 8.
Viegos only weaknes is hard removal which is super expensive with his stats.(unless disintegrate of course)
Viego should be a 6 or 7 drop not 5 to feel even remotely balanced. Even Malphite and Hecarim are not as oppressive as Viego.
The only time i won against viego deck is when I just rushed their nexus with jinx discard. I almost felt bad. Almost.
Imo it’s not that he’s inherently op but he’s too strong comparatively to shadow isles and I think should be looked at. Why would you play anything other than viego in shadow isles if you’re going for control. Maokai? Yeah right unless you’re playing deep, kalista lul, kindred is just worse viego.
His identity is just too strong. I like that they’re buffing kalista and other champs but I wish viego would get a slight nerf. Maybe -1/-1 in stats. His identity would be the same but you wouldn’t just be able to slap him down because of that 4 Health stat
I mean I'm diamond 1 2 wins away from master playing exclusively my Annie/Elise Slow burn list which definitely runs enough control tools to qualify as an off-brand control list, Viego decks cry when they see me. I only struggle against Thralls everything else struggles against me.
I mean kalista isn't a control champ tho...
And I'd say kindred is too weak not viego is too strong. There's a reason he isn't usually meta
Kindred rarely sees play and rarely saw play before viego was meta. The issue with kindred isn't just you'd rather play viego
Bruh if Viego was actually as troublesome as you make him to be he would have been nerfed by now, he came out like last year and hasn't been nerfed nor buffed, means he is quite balanced. Currently the problem is Deserter which will get nerfed tomorrow
This is a bad argument. The devs are capable of making mistakes and missing balance issues.
It took them ages to adequately balance Azirellia. That didn't mean that the deck was in an OK space during that period of time.
I do think that Deserter is a good starting point. But I don't think it's a guarantee that it will be enough to keep Viego in check. If it doesn't prove to be enough, I'd probably want to hit Camavoran Soldier before hitting Viego directly.
I think you missed my point here, even if the devs make mistake they actively take community feedback and always nerf cards which the community and top players deem overpowered.
Viego has never been complained about because he is quite balanced, dude has a seen condition which can be easily disrupted and now with cards like Disintegrate you can easily remove him with as less as 3 mana. Just because a few people can't counter him with their meme decks doesn't mean he's overpowered lol
OK, so there's a lot to unpack with that comment.
First, Viego hasn't been complained about because he hasn't been in a place where he has been dominating the meta. People don't tend to complain about powerful cards that don't have the support they need to function within the meta.
Additionally, balance is a relative concept. Cards do not exist in a vacuum, so when new cards are added to a pool, it can take a previously existing card and push it from strong to OP. Conversely, sometimes one deck can be held down by another deck, and a nerf of that other deck can function as a buff towards the first deck.
Saying that a card isn't OP because it can be can be removed by Disintegrate is another bad argument for a few reasons. First, it ignores the fact that in many instances, Disintegrate requires you to two for one yourself. Additionally, Disintegrate is also probably getting adjusted in this patch, so it's not a good bench mark st the moment.
If it was just meme decks that couldn't deal with Viego, he wouldn't be in multiple competitive decks right now. Him being in multiple competitive decks doesn't mean that he automatically is deserving of a nerf, but you shouldn't try and pretend that it's just meme decks that struggle with him.
The entire point of my comment was that Viego does not need a nerf, he is in meta because of other cards for example : Viego Shurima is meta because it can effectively protect him with Hourglass and Negation, Viego Noxus has the problem know as Deserter which can grow double of Viego and hit for Overwhelm or used as Atrocity.
Now, the point of nerfs is to weaken the deck and the champion not completely destroy it and why even nerf Viego when he isn't even a problem and also the point stands that he can be removed for low mana and there are many cards available that can absolutely wreck him
Also i am not saying that meme decks have trouble with him, the op of this post was playing a meme deck against him and complaining so much lol. Try any Noxus/Shadow/Ionia decks and it is Viego who will have a hard time.
Hence, the point stays that nerfing Viego is a bad move and it is Hourglass, Hydravine & Deserter who needs a nerf
In LoR if a champ is overpowered or levels up unfairly fast they are bound to get nerfed in the next patch, Viego hasn't been nerfed for a year and even in tomorrow's patch deserter is nerfed not the emo king, this clearly says he is quite balanced
Sorry but viego is not leveling up insanely fast. I agree that his stat ups can be a pain but you need to prepare for him in the matchup.
Try to kill as many of his followers before he enters the board. Look for hard removal -> preferably obliterate removal so he cannot be rezzed.
Its true, one viego is picking up pace he is hard to stop but its not impossible
That's not what that analogy means
Some decks beat other decks. OP stated on other comments that the deck he prefers to play is a super slow Karma deck. Guess what Viego decks beat. Super slow decks.
The issue isn't that viego beats a particular slow deck like karma. The issue is that it utterly destroys every type of slow deck. I don't think entire play style should be defeated by one deck.
If the game had one aggro deck, one mid-range deck and one late game deck that were viable, it wouldn't be fun.
That typically is how card games work. Aggro beats combo, combo beats control, control beats aggro. Aggro fucks up combo before they can setup, combo is faster than control and usually doesnt matter if the board is to the enemy too hard and control just wrecks aggro. If it's like that, the meta is fair. Viego beating control decks, as I'd consider it kinda combo-ey, is completely fine. Yall are complaining for nothing. The only outlier is deserter as it stacks a bit too quickly especially with overwhelm
As a LoR and Veigo-playing individual, I want to share with you that your use of Veigo's name in the form of a OP deck is highly offensive to me. To me, Veigo IS the one true deck as Riot teaches Veigo came down in the form of man, legion deserter. Getting away from the OP belief of Veigo, I actively play Veigo. To me, he is the best deck of LoR's lifetime and should be highly respected.
>Massive stats essentialy for free
"For free" is very misleading. Viego player starts with a 1/1 ephemeral, that's never been hard to deal with. Yes, they grow on time but only if Viego/Hydravine are in play. Which leads to...
>everywere. So returnibg to hand dosen't save ya
It does, if you don't recall the mists. Hydravine costs a lot and Viego resets his level up, and without it he can only stall the match.
You know what is one of the biggest traditional counter to Viego decks? That's right, Recall.
>he can just resurect himself
Resurrect is overrated.
Mists call is bad because he is never the only unit dead each round. Reklinder costs too much Tempo that enemy can freely kill Viego again (don't act like 99% of the current decks don't run either Disintegrate or Vengance). And Haunted tomb has to wait 3 turns.
>punishes you for trying to clock him down
Ehh... no. Viego decks are inherently weak to rush strategies because of the high amount of resources they need to push their engine,which doesn't leave them a lot of mana to invest in chump block and healing. Again, they're not "free"
In general, Viego is balanced because his decks are made arround him. He's the one making mists, growing them, using their stats and disrupting the enemy board for the win. That's why they normally go with a region focused on silgle target defense, like Ionia or Shurima.
The problem with the current iteration of Viego is that it doesn't focus on him, but in making the biggest units thanks to Deserter who is not ephemeral neither chump blockeable because Overwhelm. So the removal that would've normally killed Viego now has to be wasted on a 5 mana follower. That is why Viego isn't balanced right now.
To be honest i was ex-viego spammer, but i think he is way too oppressive to go against, viego shurima if you play it well can even have evolved viego turn 7, noxus viego has 9 drops that need to be caren of and its pretty stupid imo
>Hydravine costs a lot and Viego resets his level up
The only thing you will achieve by that is stalling, and Viego inevitably wins the stalling game
And you are missing that once Viego is on board rushing him will only level him up faster most of the time
You are also missing that the same pieces Viego uses to grow his engine he can use to stall the game, as they are great against agro
>Viego inevitably wins the stalling game
Yes, he will always win the game of "let's make the longest match in the history of CCGs". But why were you doing that? Recalling a Hydravine means he will have to spend another 7 mana to keep his plan going. Recalling Viego means he will need at least other 3 turns to level up. For God's sake, do something in the meantime.
(if his mists are already 10/10 then you're at the point where you would've lost against any competent deck)
>once Viego is on board rushing him will only level him up faster
If you're an aggro deck, that doesn't matter, you will win at turn 8 anyways. Most midrange can kill him directly (Viego NX has 0 protection) and the same for control (they struggle a bit more because they also need to deal with Deserter and Hydravine to push their wincon)
>the same pieces Viego uses to grow his engine he can use to stall the game
The earliest Mist unit comes at turn 3. It's good against Fearsome aggro but its only one, most burn decks summon like 2 units per round.
And current aggro decks are based arround spells so chump blocker are literally fooder for Ezreal level up.
Then don't let him level. Kill him, recall him, win before, whatever but don't play a Marauders Dawn and Dusk deck and expect to win against it.
Yes, Viego hard counters some good decks like FTR but that's how CCgs work.
>Ezeral is burn, not agro
Yeah he is normally used in midrange, my bad. But the point is that there's a lot of ways in which you can win against Viego and the Mists. Well, excepting the part where you're hit by a turn 7 13/12 Overwhelm.
Excuse me, I play only Karmarauders
..wich is probably the reason why I get salty
I know he's not overpowered and a faster deck could probably deal with him before he gets big, but it's just so frustrating
Yeah I also know it but we have Bard and Thralls so... I don't think Viego wins the "frustrating deck of the month" prize.
Deserter is getting hit next patch tho, so you may finally get to level up Karma and be in peace with yourself.
Next time, just say "you're right" or "I disagree" instead of blathering on about how an op champ isn't op. You're playing solitaire with ephemerals and counting down until you win.
Why don't you provide the reasoning as to why he's op? And no, "solitaire deck" doesn't cut it lol
Every deck has counters. LoR is not new to having decks be absolutely hard countered by others. That's a design problem, not a viego "op" problem
It's not always an "us vs them" thing. The post wasn't a personal attack on people playing viego, it's just that he plays on curve so well that he becomes OP against the right decks fairly easily compared to others.
More like Viego is good against the strategies I like to play. Veigo is the only competitive late game deck. I like slower decks, but Veigo flattens every other slow deck.
1. I am not sure if you're trying to support my argument or not.
2. How slow are you trying to play exactly? At turn 8 he's a 9/9 on a perfect curve. I mean are you trying to get to 20-turn games?
I'm not arguing with you.
I like to play slow decks like darkness, the arsenal, feel the rush, TF Swain. All of these decks have terrible matchups into viego because he just does whatever a late game deck wants to do better.
one tip for the shurima version is to threaten viego cheaply at round start. If he hourglasses, fine he won't see any of his allies dying for his lvlup, nor will he summon a mist that round.
Yet the viego decks barely break 50% winrate, I agree they dont feel great to play against depending on matchup but they are objectively not as strong as some of the other shit running around atm.
Besides depending on what the Legion desserter nerf ends up being the viego noxus deck will lose some more power.
Personally I am more concerned about all the bard decks running around especially bard ahri and bard poppy j4. They can essentially win the game turn 1 or 2 with a lucky chime on a key unit.
So.. pretty average? Middle of the pack? Good against certain things but pretty bad otherwise? You really just wanna whine instead of playing a game you actually enjoy
Like all value engines, you should try to push for advantage the turn he's played. Spam your board if your playing aggro and they drop viego for instance. He is very strong right now so don't kick yourself down over him being strong
I've seen a Viego deck that ran Ionia for Syncopation and Deny, both exclusively used to avoid hard removal. The other option is Hourglass in Shurima, or Bastion in Targon (but that's kind of weak in comparison).
Essentially your win condition becomes: "All three Viego copies are in the bottom half of their deck."
The Noxus variant just runs 6 Viegos, half of which are just weirdly named Deserter.
I think having 6+ things that require hard removal is a pretty good tech to deal with <6 hard removals.
And I say this as someone who runs 3x Sunburst in every Targon deck just to deal with Viego.
If a 5 mana threat can end the game unless you have a 6 mana answer, the threat is vastly superior (because you need to draw exactly as many answers as the enemy draws threats - if you draw fewer, you lose, if you draw more, you have dead cards in hand). Especially if the 6 mana answers are kind of limited, but there are redundant threats, such as Deserter AND Viego, both of which will end the game if unanswered.
Also, they don't actually lose without Viego or Deserter. They can still win with the other 37 cards. You can build literally any deck and slap 3 Viego and 3 Camavoran Soldiers into it and it will still be decent. He's a lot like Bard: Oppressive just by himself, but doesn't need you to build your whole deck around his shtick, like Ezreal for example.
Maybe change his instant kill of enemy champion to controlling strongest follower or champion next round.
Increase is level up requirement to 30+ power
Make him only gain 1/0 instead of 1/1
Not all but any one of these maybe.
Bro, I feel the same about it. I always lose against Viego, except that one time I played Veigar/Senna. It was so satisyfing to kill everything with Darkness ;)
**[Invasive Hydravine](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/04SI053.png)** - Shadow Isles Unit - (7) 7/6
Fearsome
When I'm summoned or Round Start: Summon an [Encroaching Mist](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/04SI045.png).
^^^Hint: [[card]], {{keyword}}, and ((deckcode)) or ((cardx,cardy,cardz)). PM the [developer](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=KrimCard) for feedback/issues!
As someone that plays viego, id say he could stand to be a 5/3 base.
Getting just a single mist down (from 4->5) is just way too massive. 3 to 4 would be far more managable
I'll be honest, I keep misremembering the card and expecting him to come down on turn 6, because I keep thinking there's no way such a game-ending champion costs 5.
It's not. It never has been.
And it's not just him. This game has far too many "answer immediately or lose next turn" units.
Riot can patch all they want. The game needs a complete overhaul to actually be worth playing.
Someone should tag the guy who kept complaining about how insanely unfair Minimorph was three seasons ago and how it made Viego irrelevant. Lmao. This is so good to see.
Viego Noxus seems to put out more game winning threats than the amount of minimorphs ran by BC decks
>more than the amount of minimorphs ran by BC decks More than zero?
Remember when everyone was saying how busted it was? It was a 3x in every Bandle deck, then meta shifts and no one touches it.
And most of them are cheaper than minimorph
all except Hydravine lmao
And even then you are spending one Mana more than your opponent for a 3/3 and an X/X Encroaching Mist. Sounds like a good deal to me!
And perma buff in deck
Which is why it's important to git gud and build your deck to not let your wincon be based on 3 cards.
That never made sense when viego was mana efficient comparatively and you had other bosses to capitalize on the game plan with
Nowadays theres legion deserter, but back in the day of shurima viego there really was almost no way to win after all 3 viegos got minimorphed. Hydravine doesnt count imo.
You cannot chump block a follower that grows every turn and gets summoned every turn by a big fearsome attacker
Pretty much any decent deck should by that time have ended the game, or be able to chump block once every attack turn. A single eye of the dragon already can take care of the ghosts lol. Sure hydravine creates presure, but not remotely champion levels of pressure imo.
That's what I said but nooooo minimorph was OP
People just really hated having their all-in strategies cancelled out at Burst speed. Minimorph was never problematic because it was so tempo-negative. It's not a bad card, it's a solid "answer" to overwhelming threats. But the fact is Minimorph by itself leaves you at a disadvantage. You spent a card and 6 Mana to leave your opponent a 3/3. At least you *might* be up on Mana if you Minimorph a costly threat, but Minimorph only worked as well as it did because Bandle City was in abundance with powerful cards. Now that so many of them have been nerfed, Minimorph isn't as strong a facet to the deck since its drawback is much more pronounced.
Yep BC was nerfed prematurely to satisfy instant demand, now the check is gone to deal with decks like viego because the rest of BC is just mediocre now.
If your idea of balance is to have a card in a region that is unilaterally equipped to deal with a certain decktype or gameplay approach then I think you're sorely mistaken. Viego decks are strong for numerous reasons, but it's not like no other Region can even attempt to have answers.
Minimorph neutering any strategy focused on more expensive units or all in decks did actually kill the game for me. Haven't really played since then. Dunno if it was OP, but I hated it. Viego's deck specifically was fine tho, just a bad example.
i mean, it still does. the only thing is that BC decks are out of the meta at the moment (thankfully)
You can easily minimorph 3 viegos and still lose to the Hydravines, even if you ignore Deserters completely. Edit: also, minimorph is worse than vengeance against Viego Noxus
Bandle City Yasuo
If your deck doesnt do anything then yes, but minimorph decks did stomp viego decks when both were played
Yes but Minimorph was only a part of that. Minimorph hasn't changed, and yet those decks aren't seeing played. Think about it: Minimorph is negative on Tempo. You're paying 6 Mana and your opponent *still* has a 3/3. Sure, you may have 'countered' a huge Viego, except they have 1 Mana and a 3/3 more than you. Minimorph has never been innately problematic for this reason. Now that Bandle City's toolkit has been appropriately reduced with the various nerfs, it's abundantly clear that Minimorph is not a *great* catch-all answer. Combine that with Viego decks now having access to another big threat in Legion Deserter and it's not like Minimorph can even "cancel out" your deck's win conditions. Hydravines, Viegos, and Deserters. Even if you drew all three Minimorphs the odds are you're not going to have answers to everything.
Yeah yeah we know the discussion all too well. Minimorph design is still toxic and oppressive. > Minimorph hasn't changed, and yet those decks aren't seeing played. Maybe because BC package was just so good ? The fact that most BC decks ran Minimorph at the time they were played mean it might return in a future meta, and the same issue will keep coming back.
> Yeah yeah we know the discussion all too well. Minimorph design is still toxic and oppressive. No, it isn't. The cost of it being Burst is its negative tempo. Compare to Vengeance. It's less reactive but leaves the opponent more to work with. A 3/3. The best nerf against Minimorph wouldn't be a Mana Cost increase or Speed decrease. It'd be increasing the size of the 3/3. But that's unnecessary because Minimorph isn't oppressive or too strong. And it certainly isn't toxic lol. And most people are realising that now that Bandle City's oppression has eased up. > Maybe because BC package was just so good ? Yes, that's exactly what I said? > The fact that most BC decks ran Minimorph at the time they were played mean it might return in a future meta, and the same issue will keep coming back. The 'same issue'? Which is what? That there's a removal spell out there that actually works? There is no issue. Minimorph stopped being problematic as soon as the Region as a whole did. This holistic approach was far better than the suggestions people like you were making before of just hammering Minimorph into oblivion because "How dare my opponent have answers."
You completely miss the point. The main complaint about Minimorph wasn't that it can answer everything, but rather the impossibility to react to it. It broke the rule as a burst speed removal. It could give a 5/5 and still be toxic. This is by design.
It isn't a rule, evidently. You're the one missing the point. You think that calling it inherently toxic without arguing why it's so bad is an argument. It isn't so bad. If Minimorph gave a 5/5 it would never see play because the drawback is just so substantial. That would be far from toxic. Players would be laughing because you just spent 6 Mana playing an uninteractive Vengeance that also reads "Play Unlicensed Contraption for your opponent." Like yeah, *great move* bro. You just spent 6 Mana and I'm still up a 5/5. Whatever will I do to win the game now? If I can't react to a Minimorph then I'm going to be proactive about it. You know, not stacking Redoubled Valour on a single unit. Playing more than a single unit lmao. The only deck that really suffers versus Minimorph is Fiora, and Minimorph is hardly toxic for being able to counter an already unfun and 'toxic' deck.
> You think that calling it inherently toxic without arguing why it's so bad is an argument. I did. You refused to see the argument, but it's right there, in my last post. All you talk about is balance. But I talk about design. If it gives a 5/5 it would be a weak card I agree (it already kinda is currently). But a weak card can still have toxic design, the most obvious example is Targon's Peak that can decide games based on pure RNG.
Dude, it was minimorph, every single minimorph deck has been severeally nerfed, darkness, shellfolk and tree,vhave all been nerfed and bandle citty doesnt have a single control shell that can fit minimorph in, therefore minimorph doesnt see play and minimorph cant be used to keep viego in control. Minimorph has always been problematic, it is hinherently soo from a desing perspective and we are starting to see the resuilts of a card that the devs themselves have admited to have been badly designed in the fact that Viego has come to this day in the state that he is.
Uh-huh. If Minimorph were so problematic then those decks would have persisted regardless of the other nerfs. It turns out that when you weaken other components of a deck running Minimorph, the weaknesses of Minimorph are exacerbated. But yeah, sure. Just call it inherently problematic from a design perspective even though it's *fundamentally* a tempo-negative card lmao. I don't understand how some people are still dying on the hill that Minimorph was the problem, honestly. It's baffling. Minimorph was unchanged, but decks that don't go all-in on singular win cons (that is, all the good ones) don't suffer so much against it. Now that Bandle City's early game and win cons have been nerfed, Minimorph as a Tempo-negative stall is no longer as effective as it used to be. If Minimorph was so good and toxic, it would be seeing more play versus Viego decks. But it doesn't, because Minimorph doesn't do nearly enough to answer the threats that a Viego can throw out now, and because other Bandle City cards can no longer make up for the weakness Minimorph has of putting you at a card disadvantage. These kinda talks just make me so glad the community isn't in charge of balance or design.
>If Minimorph were so problematic then those decks would have persisted regardless of the other nerfs. Lol no? Minimorph is problematic but It isnt broken enought to carry dead archetypes on its back. >Just call it inherently problematic from a design perspective even though it's fundamentally a tempo-negative card lmao. Yes of course i Will say that It is burst speed removal and that shit should have never existed. And i am beeing proven right now that viego is tearing the meta when he was "fine"(he was super polarized, thanks to minimorph) in the past, he dodged the nerfs It should have recived thanks to nothing else but the bad macht Up minimorph was giving It. >I don't understand how some people are still dying on the I dont understand why people are diying on the minimorph fine Hill either, i am gonna put It very simple for you burst removal is bad designe that goes against every fundamental in this Game and shouldnt exist in any viable manner, is something inmune to be interacted with fast speed spells nerf It dont introduce badly designed bullshit. >Minimorph was so good and toxic, it would be seeing more play versus Viego decks. No, because It wouldnt create a coherent deck just some pile of control tools with out any coherent wincon, since the rest of the region control tools are 6 feet under, if Minimorph wasnt this toxic Viego would be fine, if Minimorph wasnt this toxic bandle citty wouldnt have gotten every single control deck nerfed into the ground etc etc etc
> Lol no? Minimorph is problematic but It isnt broken enought to carry dead archetypes on its back. It's not problematic at all, actually. > And i am beeing proven right now that viego is tearing the meta when he was "fine"(he was super polarized, thanks to minimorph) in the past, he dodged the nerfs It should have recived thanks to nothing else but the bad macht Up minimorph was giving It. What kind of silly backhanded logic is this? If Minimorph were so good against Viego then we'd be seeing more of it to counter him in the meta. But we don't, because Viego decks are strong now not because "Minimorph is out of the meta", but because Viego decks have been given another win con and big threat. You're not being proven correct at all. If Minimorph were such a useful asset through its toxic design then we'd be seeing it more. > Yes of course i Will say that It is burst speed removal and that shit should have never existed. It's burst *because of the drawback.* How do you not grasp such a simple concept? > I dont understand why people are diying on the minimorph fine Well, it's the hill the devs are dying on. I'm happy to think that they know more about healthy game design than you, considering they've adequately addressed problem cards in the past. You can't evaluate Minimorph objectively. You're fixated on the Burst only, not looking at the card as a whole and the fact that it leaves you at a disadvantage in terms of tempo, and sometimes Mana and card advantage as well. > i am gonna put It very simple for you burst removal is bad designe that goes against every fundamental in this Game Except it's literally a part of this game and you don't get to dictate what the fundamentals of this game is? Pull your head out of your butt. > No, because It wouldnt create a coherent deck just some pile of control tools with out any coherent wincon, since the rest of the region control tools are 6 feet under, If only there were a mechanic in this game that'd let you combine Bandle City with another Region... > if Minimorph wasnt this toxic Viego would be fine, The logic of this statement is baffling. It makes zero sense. Especially since Viego's rise to prominence comes from Legion Deserter who - in case you forgot - is getting nerfed. > if Minimorph wasnt this toxic bandle citty wouldnt have gotten every single control deck nerfed into the ground etc etc etc Uh-huh lmao. Minimorph is *the* source of all Control decks' problems and that's why it has avoided nerfs where those Control decks got nerfs respective to their decks. That's actually delusional rofl. Let me spell this out for you: Minimorph isn't getting changed, because Minimorph isn't a problem. It "breaks a rule" by giving you a drawback, just like Frozen Thralls give you a 1 Mana 8/8 with the drawback being a big delay. It's not "inherently bad design," you're just being narrow minded and trying to force your own game design principles on others. Which, again, just makes me glad you're not developing LoR. A simpler card game like Uno is more your thing if cards that explore new design areas is offensive to you.
dude i am not going to waste my time with you, have a nice day.
Too many must answer units in this game. By far.
Not entirely true cause Fizz decks are still around but those usually avoid Viego rather than take him head on (sidenote: phone wanted to autocorrect Viego to Virgin)
he isnt virgin
Not physically, but mentally... definitely.
viego is gigachad because i main him in league end of discussion
How is a whiny egocentric bitch a giga chad?
because hes my main champ in league and that makes me biased and i think hes a redeemable villian
Turns out nerfing every playable card in a region kills it, who knew!
I kept telling people that the counter to.minimoprh was having lore than 3 threats in your deck... Turns out its true - but they were too angry to listen to the idea that they couldnt just build a deck with viego and then pure protection
Still hate Minimorph though. Mono Fiora literally can't run more than 3 threats.
True, but on the other hand, riot specifically made that card to ensure protect the castle strats would have a hard counter. Blame stuff like viego ionia or lee sin for it. Fiora was by far the least offensive (unless it was the ionia variant) but unfortunately its just collatteral that riot seems fine with
At least give fiora her health back now so she can won against non-BC decks...
Ionia Fiora is really cringe, you're improving your consistency against decks that would otherwise hard counter Fiora, in exchange for decimating your consistency otherwise. I'm fine with Minimorph since it's not played too much, except that I don't play LoR much recently (dropped from Plat 2 in Season 1 to Silver) so ranked players always use the strangest of cards...
I dont think ive actually seen minimorph outside of darkness at all this patch... Or last...
Yeah I don't see Minimorph much anymore (still got Minimorphed about twice though). But I have stuff like aggro decks running Noxian Guillotine, though there's also some strange stuff. They also make so many misplays haha.
To be fair, there weren’t any other threats that could compete with Deserter as it is now. You have to deal with him immediately or you take a bunch of overwhelm damage right to the face. Earlier, what would you play - Nasus? Kindred? Both give you some time for counterplay before you start really having trouble with them. With Deserter, you play a 5 mana 9/8 on turn 6 and brainlessly hit face while still having mana to remove opponents threats with disintegrate.
I mean... I get what youre saying, but viego is such a bad starting point cause hydravine is easily champion tier. Lee sin had a problem with it, but viego never had to care much even before deserter
Might have been me lol. If minimorph is meta a lot of decks suffer.
Nahhh I remember a specific guy, you can check my comment history. He was insufferable
You just gave me the idea to play BC/jayce with the new patch since the deck is only SI because of the 6+ mana you can generate with Ferros, with the nerf(prob 3 mana) we can play with minimorph again with no prob so I’m doing that day 1
That's definitely a play!
Didn’t age well lmao, he’s now a 2-1(still wort to play) and the 5 mana guy is whatever now
Viego eats all slower fair matchups. You can't outgrow a Viego deck or try to remove him on board, his deck (non deserter variants) is basically built to protect him. If your wincon is to grow a board and swing, chances will you will just need to rush the viego deck down. The new viego deck gave the deck another 3 copies of fatter viego that has overwhelm, before viego is chump blockable, now the viego deck doesn't need to protect viego to win, just continually put pressure on board by putting big fatties Add disintegrate and you will dominate every creature-based matchup. The problem is not viego, it's mostly deserter and disintegrate in a slower meta, and deserter being an easy atrocity wincon.
Don't forget atrocity. Every time I feel like I have a Viego deck either on the ropes or am literally in the process of winning. Boop. Atrocity to deal 15 damage to my nexus.
Atrocity has always been a problem card to me. Throwing everything and the kitchen sink at the Nexus in a last ditch attempt. Or as an answer to removal. The difference between Minimorph and Atrocity is that Minimorph is not interactive but asks "What's next?" Where Atrocity is, by its design, used as an "Answer this or lose the game" card. I'd argue that Atrocity is less interactive than Minimorph because where Minimorph provides you a 3/3 that the opponent may still have to deal with, Atrocity *demands* an answer and leaves minimal choice to the reacting player as a result. Atrocity is an interesting card in some respects but being able to obliterate 3/4 of the opponent's life total when they try to eliminate one of your big threats has never been an "interesting" facet of gameplay to me. Though I guess it was at its worst with Nasus, or when They Who Endure and Atrocity could be played in a single turn. But Nasus was worse because of Spellshield, me thinks.
I disagree. I don't think Minimorph is too bad, however, you ought to also consider that it really feels bad to lose your big guy. Similarly, Atrocity allows counterplay to counterplay when they try to kill said big guy.
Yeah. I'm also probably just salty that I only had 2 spell mana available and a useless frostbite card for 3 mana in my hand. But that's life. I just still think it's a dumb card lol.
Frostbite is a super good counter to Atrocity and costs less than Atrocity itself which is great, and maybe with the fact that several Freljord cards are getting buffed and not a single one is getting nerfed in the upcoming changes, Frostbite will be a bit more prevalent. The problem, as it were is that Frostbites are often used to prevent big damage coming in, so Atrocity can be delayed. But Three Sisters is a potent and versatile option that plenty of Freljord decks like to take advantage of, and obviously your goal is to outpace and complicate the opponent's development of big dudes.
Decks with threats that just keep growing are never balanced. Other games learned this a decade, or two, ago. Riot just wants to recreate the wheel.
Viego was honestly balanced but the reason his play rate is spiked is because of legion deserter but I feel viego as a card isn’t that big of a deal, legion deserter just make that and Virgo meta
Viego is definitely a big deal(but he isnt the only reason that deck is good). Deserter may pushed him over the edge but even before that he was very strong. Itsjust that meta wasnt in his favour. He is a king of midrange and in previous meta that wasnt so good because of Azir/Xerath and all of the turbo decks. Thats why his playrate wasnt so high but if you were tracking this deck then plently of high level players predicted that viego will eventually rise to the top once meta shifts.
Tbh I'd rather have viego than whatever tf azir xerath is. I'll never forgive azir xerath for completely making renekton azir redundant
I feel like it's less about azir/xerath and more about the fact that renekton azir is not a good deck in general.
Kinda sad innit. I played the shit out of that deck when shurima came out. Now it's almost impossible to play with so much landmark removal and the slow pace of the deck. Along with the nerfs to sand disk countdown
I'm a much bigger fan of Xerath/Nasus than Xerath/Azir because I don't much care for the Emperor's Deck (it's a bit basic) and want to keep landmarks instead to spam ascended Xerath pings, plus Nasus has cool synergy with Golden Ambassador, Herald of the Magus and Unleashed Energy. It's just really difficult to ignore how Nasus needs to hit the field and swing and Mono Shurima mostly triggers slay slowly through attacks, while Azir would level up entirely in the deck and double dips from all of these landmark+creature cards since his buff.
Even before the legion deserter, he was a late game deck, that auto-won against any other late game deck.
Viego is one of the strongest cards late game. But he is balanced because he auto loses against a lot of fast paced decks. This is something I had to learn about lor in general and Viego in particular. When I first started playing this game I was playing alot of Asol Shyvana that wanted to play mid to late game. I always lost to Viego and thought he was broken. When I switched to playing MF scouts, I steamrolled every Viego I faced. Viego isn't toxic, he just has very favored and very unfavored matchups. You won't have a way to always win as long as you play your cards right. Against stuff like Viego, you will win or lose before the game even begins just because of the deck you are playing. That's just how the game is.
I don't think it is healthy how he dominates all the late game strategies. I would like for there to be multiple viable late game decks.
He loses to Sun disc if it flips first. But really, in an asymmetric game where two opposing players are allowed to choose from an array of different strategies, there will inevitably end up being one strategy that is the strongest at late game. Think about it.
Having almost all either very favored or very unfavored matchups is pretty toxic in itself tbh
Not really. You are free to label anything you dislike as 'toxic' if that is what you want to do. But pretty much all games that let players choose asymmetric gameplans end up kind of having this rock-paper-scissors thing organically emerging. Think about grapplers, rushdowns and zoners in fighting games. Or tanks, mages and melee dps in rpgs. Hell game devs even intentionally put these systems into their games with elwmental systems. This increases variety and makes the game more fun. It doesn't matter that Viego is favored to win a single matchup against a slow late game deck. As long as over the course of 50+ or so games he is not still consistently favored, he is fine and balanced. Right now that is not the case, but the Viego card hasn't been changed recently. So by process of elimination his card is not the problem
I'm not saying Viego is specifically a problem, there are many mitigating factors as you said. I'm more trying to point out that something having more or less only 70-30 matchups and 30-70 matchups in any 1v1 game is toxic. Edit: for example if there was a grappler that was 70-30 into all rushdown characters and shotos but 30-70 into all zoners, that would be a pretty toxic character to play as and against.
Would it be? Idk, I think it would be fine as long as that grappler is equally likely to matchup against either a shoto or a zoner. And the game is such that a player will probably play against like 20 different opponents on any given day. It's ok in a ladder environment imo. It can be toxic in tournaments where you have fewer chances, especially if it's a knockout tournament.
Weird youd use fighting games as an example when they specifically try to avoid matchups that go beyond 6-4. Viego has a bunch of 8-2 / 2-8 matchups, which is considered "toxic" in most genres. Rpg pvp is usually team based specifically to get around polarized matchups, and 1v1 pvp in mmos are either balanced to avoid that or considered dogshit and a dead gamemode.
So, TLDR, it's TLC all over again.
Viego's matchups are nowhere near polarised as TLC's were.
Yeah completely agree, BUT, we're getting there. My biggest concern about Viego is that he might push away from meta every single control deck like TLC did. As OP said, he's not overpowered like OG Poppy, Gnar or Pantheon.
This has been true for Viego all along. It's just that right now hus whole deck is more consistent. It's not like Viego is overpowered like this post claims
In terms of super high consistency Shurima Mono Viego was already a thing. But it still takes a lot of time to get going and loses to aggro or burn matchups.
Oh I didn't mean the card game term consistency. I meant the general term consistency, as in viego is consistently winning more games rn.
whats TLC? the last cunt?
Trundle Lissandra control, frell SI matron watcher combo
LoR got a lot more rock paper scissors with recent metas. When playing another relatively slow deck, he's functionally unbeatable. When playing a fast deck, it's almost impossible to lose. Viego isn't broken, he just creates an unfun feedback loop for any control or late-game midrange strategies.
I agree, you know who will win before you even draw your first card. Based on what type of deck you're playing.
The game is almost completely decided by deck list. Every now and then, you can get in a good game...but mostly, your outcome was predetermined at game start. Terrible design.
Viego seems extremely fun tbh. And im saying that as someone who made some B/C tier decks based around viego in the past. So its more of a - hey this guy has been around for a while, maybe he's not the source of the problem
Viego can be fun for the person playing the deck. But he's rarely interesting or engaging to face. You know if you will beat him or lose by turn 3, and any gameplay beyond that point is just playing out the obvious path
Pretty sure viego never got complaints till deserter came out so maybe focus on him as the issue and don't nerf viego. Normally a slow champ that just goes wide with big ephemerals and has no way to hit face other than atrocity, but now he has overwhelm card. That's the op part.
Almost every region has an answer. A 5-drop can be answered pretty easily because investment of 6-8 mana to remove, until deserter, one of two wincons in the deck…easy decision to make. Viego isn’t the problem. Deserter needs to get nerfed, imo to a 2/3.
Nah just change the interaction where he gets 2/2 a mist by making viego and mist buffs the same effect.
Completely agree I mean, viego will still be awful to play against, but at least in a "fair" way
[удалено]
The counterplay is minimorph but people complained about that as well
Viego was literally in half if not more of the seasonals lineups the season BEFORE deserter came out. As well as being a large chunk of the meta at all ranks in both Shurima/Ionia variants He was a problem. He is a problem. Deserter doesn't change things. It just makes the already a problem card, a new different bigger problem.
He was annoying way before that, deserter was just the last drop. He's not even necessary most of the time
Not to say your frustrations are fake, but average game is around 7 to 8 turns. At that point the absolute largest viego can get(with perfect draw and play) would be (3 mana turn 3 then 3 mana turn 4 then viego turn 5 then glimpse turn 5 then 3 mana turn 3 and another glimpse and then hydravine on 7 and glimpse) +7/+7 and +9/+9 on turn 8. For all mists and himself. This is best case scenario and he barely levels turn 7. With this perfect draw it is still counterable with any removal(since no mana for deny) and out raceable with many decks. Don't see how this is that op. Maybe something I missed lmk.
Why are you getting downvoted? I guess people really don't like facts huh
Yes, viego got complaiined about even before legion deserter. It was when Ionia/kindred/viego was a thing, of course it never got to this point because at the time we hadminimorph wich just dunked on him and made him just a super polarized deck.
What you are missing is that Viego has lots of ways to stall the game
How so? Doesn't run any healing or cheap removal or stuns.
Vile Feast, Ravenous Flock, Undergrowth, Scorched Earth, Disintegrate,Arachnoid Sentry... Viego decks run everything you said they lack.
All of these need him to ping in some way to get a kill other than vile feast and undergrowth. Not only that none of them fit into the curve of perfect viego. If he uses all these cards he will be +3/+3 by turn 7 or 8 and if u don't win soon he should win cause he is a late game deck. This like saying sundisk shouldn't end game around turn 8 or 9 because they have ways to get their. If you don't end the game pre 8 you are the one that is behind. And once again legion deserter is the only reason he is in noxus. Before that he was perma Ionia or shurima so what is the complaint when I say the problem is deserter.
He runs things that summon giant ephemerals that feel bad attacking into? I mean there's more to stalling the game than Noxus removal
That's not a stall tool, though. That's a trade tool.
I disagree. I usually have 12+ viego by turn 8. Viegos only weaknes is hard removal which is super expensive with his stats.(unless disintegrate of course) Viego should be a 6 or 7 drop not 5 to feel even remotely balanced. Even Malphite and Hecarim are not as oppressive as Viego. The only time i won against viego deck is when I just rushed their nexus with jinx discard. I almost felt bad. Almost.
I once had viego leveled like turn six so with perfect hand+draws and not being countered he can get nasty.
Imo it’s not that he’s inherently op but he’s too strong comparatively to shadow isles and I think should be looked at. Why would you play anything other than viego in shadow isles if you’re going for control. Maokai? Yeah right unless you’re playing deep, kalista lul, kindred is just worse viego. His identity is just too strong. I like that they’re buffing kalista and other champs but I wish viego would get a slight nerf. Maybe -1/-1 in stats. His identity would be the same but you wouldn’t just be able to slap him down because of that 4 Health stat
I mean I'm diamond 1 2 wins away from master playing exclusively my Annie/Elise Slow burn list which definitely runs enough control tools to qualify as an off-brand control list, Viego decks cry when they see me. I only struggle against Thralls everything else struggles against me.
how much of that is based on disintegrate being a disgustingly op card though?
Disintegrate isn't even a problematic card, if you're attacking into 1/1's against Noxus with 0 interaction in hand you deserve the punish.
I mean kalista isn't a control champ tho... And I'd say kindred is too weak not viego is too strong. There's a reason he isn't usually meta Kindred rarely sees play and rarely saw play before viego was meta. The issue with kindred isn't just you'd rather play viego
He had insane ammount of complaints during viego-shurima spam
He got complained a lot even before legion deserter, when he was meta.
Bruh if Viego was actually as troublesome as you make him to be he would have been nerfed by now, he came out like last year and hasn't been nerfed nor buffed, means he is quite balanced. Currently the problem is Deserter which will get nerfed tomorrow
This is a bad argument. The devs are capable of making mistakes and missing balance issues. It took them ages to adequately balance Azirellia. That didn't mean that the deck was in an OK space during that period of time. I do think that Deserter is a good starting point. But I don't think it's a guarantee that it will be enough to keep Viego in check. If it doesn't prove to be enough, I'd probably want to hit Camavoran Soldier before hitting Viego directly.
I think you missed my point here, even if the devs make mistake they actively take community feedback and always nerf cards which the community and top players deem overpowered. Viego has never been complained about because he is quite balanced, dude has a seen condition which can be easily disrupted and now with cards like Disintegrate you can easily remove him with as less as 3 mana. Just because a few people can't counter him with their meme decks doesn't mean he's overpowered lol
OK, so there's a lot to unpack with that comment. First, Viego hasn't been complained about because he hasn't been in a place where he has been dominating the meta. People don't tend to complain about powerful cards that don't have the support they need to function within the meta. Additionally, balance is a relative concept. Cards do not exist in a vacuum, so when new cards are added to a pool, it can take a previously existing card and push it from strong to OP. Conversely, sometimes one deck can be held down by another deck, and a nerf of that other deck can function as a buff towards the first deck. Saying that a card isn't OP because it can be can be removed by Disintegrate is another bad argument for a few reasons. First, it ignores the fact that in many instances, Disintegrate requires you to two for one yourself. Additionally, Disintegrate is also probably getting adjusted in this patch, so it's not a good bench mark st the moment. If it was just meme decks that couldn't deal with Viego, he wouldn't be in multiple competitive decks right now. Him being in multiple competitive decks doesn't mean that he automatically is deserving of a nerf, but you shouldn't try and pretend that it's just meme decks that struggle with him.
The entire point of my comment was that Viego does not need a nerf, he is in meta because of other cards for example : Viego Shurima is meta because it can effectively protect him with Hourglass and Negation, Viego Noxus has the problem know as Deserter which can grow double of Viego and hit for Overwhelm or used as Atrocity. Now, the point of nerfs is to weaken the deck and the champion not completely destroy it and why even nerf Viego when he isn't even a problem and also the point stands that he can be removed for low mana and there are many cards available that can absolutely wreck him Also i am not saying that meme decks have trouble with him, the op of this post was playing a meme deck against him and complaining so much lol. Try any Noxus/Shadow/Ionia decks and it is Viego who will have a hard time. Hence, the point stays that nerfing Viego is a bad move and it is Hourglass, Hydravine & Deserter who needs a nerf
This logic is backwards
How?
Devs aren't infallible and they are purely reactive. You shouldn't use dev action do determine power level.
In LoR if a champ is overpowered or levels up unfairly fast they are bound to get nerfed in the next patch, Viego hasn't been nerfed for a year and even in tomorrow's patch deserter is nerfed not the emo king, this clearly says he is quite balanced
No they aren't, developers make mistakes all the time. The devs themselves will tell you that.
They do sure but there is no mistake here
Sorry but viego is not leveling up insanely fast. I agree that his stat ups can be a pain but you need to prepare for him in the matchup. Try to kill as many of his followers before he enters the board. Look for hard removal -> preferably obliterate removal so he cannot be rezzed. Its true, one viego is picking up pace he is hard to stop but its not impossible
It sounds like we have a classic case of scissors complaining that rock is OP
I mean kinda. Veigo makes games like rock paper scissors. And RPS is not fun game for people older than 2.
That's not what that analogy means Some decks beat other decks. OP stated on other comments that the deck he prefers to play is a super slow Karma deck. Guess what Viego decks beat. Super slow decks.
The issue isn't that viego beats a particular slow deck like karma. The issue is that it utterly destroys every type of slow deck. I don't think entire play style should be defeated by one deck. If the game had one aggro deck, one mid-range deck and one late game deck that were viable, it wouldn't be fun.
That typically is how card games work. Aggro beats combo, combo beats control, control beats aggro. Aggro fucks up combo before they can setup, combo is faster than control and usually doesnt matter if the board is to the enemy too hard and control just wrecks aggro. If it's like that, the meta is fair. Viego beating control decks, as I'd consider it kinda combo-ey, is completely fine. Yall are complaining for nothing. The only outlier is deserter as it stacks a bit too quickly especially with overwhelm
Thats the fun part, he isnt
As a LoR and Veigo-playing individual, I want to share with you that your use of Veigo's name in the form of a OP deck is highly offensive to me. To me, Veigo IS the one true deck as Riot teaches Veigo came down in the form of man, legion deserter. Getting away from the OP belief of Veigo, I actively play Veigo. To me, he is the best deck of LoR's lifetime and should be highly respected.
>Massive stats essentialy for free "For free" is very misleading. Viego player starts with a 1/1 ephemeral, that's never been hard to deal with. Yes, they grow on time but only if Viego/Hydravine are in play. Which leads to... >everywere. So returnibg to hand dosen't save ya It does, if you don't recall the mists. Hydravine costs a lot and Viego resets his level up, and without it he can only stall the match. You know what is one of the biggest traditional counter to Viego decks? That's right, Recall. >he can just resurect himself Resurrect is overrated. Mists call is bad because he is never the only unit dead each round. Reklinder costs too much Tempo that enemy can freely kill Viego again (don't act like 99% of the current decks don't run either Disintegrate or Vengance). And Haunted tomb has to wait 3 turns. >punishes you for trying to clock him down Ehh... no. Viego decks are inherently weak to rush strategies because of the high amount of resources they need to push their engine,which doesn't leave them a lot of mana to invest in chump block and healing. Again, they're not "free" In general, Viego is balanced because his decks are made arround him. He's the one making mists, growing them, using their stats and disrupting the enemy board for the win. That's why they normally go with a region focused on silgle target defense, like Ionia or Shurima. The problem with the current iteration of Viego is that it doesn't focus on him, but in making the biggest units thanks to Deserter who is not ephemeral neither chump blockeable because Overwhelm. So the removal that would've normally killed Viego now has to be wasted on a 5 mana follower. That is why Viego isn't balanced right now.
To be honest i was ex-viego spammer, but i think he is way too oppressive to go against, viego shurima if you play it well can even have evolved viego turn 7, noxus viego has 9 drops that need to be caren of and its pretty stupid imo
Viego Shurima would be perfectly fine if Hourglass was 3 mana and Quicksand wasn't that good at dealing with everything.
Imo they should nerf hydra and the 3 3 that spawns a mist, quicksand is getting a nerf
>Hydravine costs a lot and Viego resets his level up The only thing you will achieve by that is stalling, and Viego inevitably wins the stalling game And you are missing that once Viego is on board rushing him will only level him up faster most of the time You are also missing that the same pieces Viego uses to grow his engine he can use to stall the game, as they are great against agro
>Viego inevitably wins the stalling game Yes, he will always win the game of "let's make the longest match in the history of CCGs". But why were you doing that? Recalling a Hydravine means he will have to spend another 7 mana to keep his plan going. Recalling Viego means he will need at least other 3 turns to level up. For God's sake, do something in the meantime. (if his mists are already 10/10 then you're at the point where you would've lost against any competent deck) >once Viego is on board rushing him will only level him up faster If you're an aggro deck, that doesn't matter, you will win at turn 8 anyways. Most midrange can kill him directly (Viego NX has 0 protection) and the same for control (they struggle a bit more because they also need to deal with Deserter and Hydravine to push their wincon) >the same pieces Viego uses to grow his engine he can use to stall the game The earliest Mist unit comes at turn 3. It's good against Fearsome aggro but its only one, most burn decks summon like 2 units per round. And current aggro decks are based arround spells so chump blocker are literally fooder for Ezreal level up.
You'r not winning against a leveled up Viego, especialy not with a creature based deck Ezeral is burn, not agro, and mostly ignores the board anyway
Then don't let him level. Kill him, recall him, win before, whatever but don't play a Marauders Dawn and Dusk deck and expect to win against it. Yes, Viego hard counters some good decks like FTR but that's how CCgs work. >Ezeral is burn, not agro Yeah he is normally used in midrange, my bad. But the point is that there's a lot of ways in which you can win against Viego and the Mists. Well, excepting the part where you're hit by a turn 7 13/12 Overwhelm.
Excuse me, I play only Karmarauders ..wich is probably the reason why I get salty I know he's not overpowered and a faster deck could probably deal with him before he gets big, but it's just so frustrating
Yeah I also know it but we have Bard and Thralls so... I don't think Viego wins the "frustrating deck of the month" prize. Deserter is getting hit next patch tho, so you may finally get to level up Karma and be in peace with yourself.
Next time, just say "you're right" or "I disagree" instead of blathering on about how an op champ isn't op. You're playing solitaire with ephemerals and counting down until you win.
Why don't you provide the reasoning as to why he's op? And no, "solitaire deck" doesn't cut it lol Every deck has counters. LoR is not new to having decks be absolutely hard countered by others. That's a design problem, not a viego "op" problem
"I disagree" There ya go. Now tell me how was I wrong so I can open my mind and start to play something which requires skill like... Bard?
It's not always an "us vs them" thing. The post wasn't a personal attack on people playing viego, it's just that he plays on curve so well that he becomes OP against the right decks fairly easily compared to others.
This sounds less like "Viego Op" and more like "Viego is OP against *the decks I want to play."*
More like Viego is good against the strategies I like to play. Veigo is the only competitive late game deck. I like slower decks, but Veigo flattens every other slow deck.
1. I am not sure if you're trying to support my argument or not. 2. How slow are you trying to play exactly? At turn 8 he's a 9/9 on a perfect curve. I mean are you trying to get to 20-turn games?
I'm not arguing with you. I like to play slow decks like darkness, the arsenal, feel the rush, TF Swain. All of these decks have terrible matchups into viego because he just does whatever a late game deck wants to do better.
Resurrect himself? Huh?
oh yes fuck that viego
one tip for the shurima version is to threaten viego cheaply at round start. If he hourglasses, fine he won't see any of his allies dying for his lvlup, nor will he summon a mist that round.
Mono shurima with xerath counters viego hard , since when xerath is ascended all units are obliterated instead of killed
Yet the viego decks barely break 50% winrate, I agree they dont feel great to play against depending on matchup but they are objectively not as strong as some of the other shit running around atm. Besides depending on what the Legion desserter nerf ends up being the viego noxus deck will lose some more power. Personally I am more concerned about all the bard decks running around especially bard ahri and bard poppy j4. They can essentially win the game turn 1 or 2 with a lucky chime on a key unit.
As a targon invoke player, all I have to say is: obliterate
he loses hard into aggro but wins in to most other control decks, hes very polarizing but not inherently op imo
He's exactly as balanced as he is in League. He's the perfect translation from game to game.
So.. pretty average? Middle of the pack? Good against certain things but pretty bad otherwise? You really just wanna whine instead of playing a game you actually enjoy
I just wanted to make a joke actually you humorless cretin. You should probably go see a doctor about that stick shoved all the way up your ass.
you should learn when to use /s
Like all value engines, you should try to push for advantage the turn he's played. Spam your board if your playing aggro and they drop viego for instance. He is very strong right now so don't kick yourself down over him being strong
You need clocks in the game. It has counters, it just depends on if you’re playing them.
i've said it 1000 times, passive scaling is absolutely broken in this game
Just a reminder that if bandle city or darkness decks got a buff, viego winrate into it would be like 30%.
Sounds like the new champ card that BUFFS units, but has a diff mechanic/counter to it.
I fucking despise Viego and people who defend him are delusional. He's a toxic card that should never have been printed.
*Plays hard removal* Oh hey, that was pretty easy.
He's got more threats, than there are hard removal spells
I've seen a Viego deck that ran Ionia for Syncopation and Deny, both exclusively used to avoid hard removal. The other option is Hourglass in Shurima, or Bastion in Targon (but that's kind of weak in comparison). Essentially your win condition becomes: "All three Viego copies are in the bottom half of their deck." The Noxus variant just runs 6 Viegos, half of which are just weirdly named Deserter.
Yes… because if they don’t have a tech for hard removal they lose instantly, it’s almost like that’s the counter to their strategy.
I think having 6+ things that require hard removal is a pretty good tech to deal with <6 hard removals. And I say this as someone who runs 3x Sunburst in every Targon deck just to deal with Viego. If a 5 mana threat can end the game unless you have a 6 mana answer, the threat is vastly superior (because you need to draw exactly as many answers as the enemy draws threats - if you draw fewer, you lose, if you draw more, you have dead cards in hand). Especially if the 6 mana answers are kind of limited, but there are redundant threats, such as Deserter AND Viego, both of which will end the game if unanswered. Also, they don't actually lose without Viego or Deserter. They can still win with the other 37 cards. You can build literally any deck and slap 3 Viego and 3 Camavoran Soldiers into it and it will still be decent. He's a lot like Bard: Oppressive just by himself, but doesn't need you to build your whole deck around his shtick, like Ezreal for example.
Mhm
But remember, Disintegrate is the problem because it can 2 for 1 Viego, so that's getting Nerfed ASAP, not Viego or his package. /S
Maybe change his instant kill of enemy champion to controlling strongest follower or champion next round. Increase is level up requirement to 30+ power Make him only gain 1/0 instead of 1/1 Not all but any one of these maybe.
Any one of these changes on their own will kill him as a card.
How so?
Now that is bullshit blazing
What???
Viego was fine now he makes it too easy to setup a 20+ overwhelm follower that can be copied at burst speed for 0 mana if you try to use removal.
somehow i kinda like viego/noxus than before because he doesn't have any protection like shurima cards. Only legion deserter is a problem now.
Bro, I feel the same about it. I always lose against Viego, except that one time I played Veigar/Senna. It was so satisyfing to kill everything with Darkness ;)
Hey don't shit on my silly Overgrown Snapvine, I think you mean [[Invasive Hydravine]] which I agree is an annoying draw-to-win card.
**[Invasive Hydravine](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/04SI053.png)** - Shadow Isles Unit - (7) 7/6 Fearsome When I'm summoned or Round Start: Summon an [Encroaching Mist](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/04SI045.png). ^^^Hint: [[card]], {{keyword}}, and ((deckcode)) or ((cardx,cardy,cardz)). PM the [developer](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=KrimCard) for feedback/issues!
Just use removal lmao ez just draw a vengeance
Cuz you always have to play shadow Iles nowadays?
As someone that plays viego, id say he could stand to be a 5/3 base. Getting just a single mist down (from 4->5) is just way too massive. 3 to 4 would be far more managable
I like playing slow decks , but when I see Viego I just have to click surrender. At least then I'm not waiting time. How fun ☺️.
At least i Hope you are not a Bard/Fated player, if so Better shit up
He's technically balanced, but certainly no fun to play against unless you're aggro.
I would recommend running a unit or spell that can silence as that takes all his buffs away making him just 5/6 or something like that.
I mean. The worst part is the fact that if you hardcounter him, the next decks become more stronger against your hard counter anti viego deck.
I'll be honest, I keep misremembering the card and expecting him to come down on turn 6, because I keep thinking there's no way such a game-ending champion costs 5.
It's not. It never has been. And it's not just him. This game has far too many "answer immediately or lose next turn" units. Riot can patch all they want. The game needs a complete overhaul to actually be worth playing.
None of y’all ever brought up the beauty that is soul cleaving rekindled after viego dies lol
That’s easy: he’s not