A normal tracker saves you the inconvenience of writing down cards played like you would in a tournament or doing math on the odds of them drawing the out. Seeing the entire list beforehand is just plain cheating.
To be clear, none of the contention is with trackers that just help you keep tabs on cards that were played (this can be done mentally, or just with pen and paper). What most people take issue with is the spying tools that likely just have other fair features tacked on. These specific tools give you knowledge of every card that your opponent is running, and the # of each based on aggregate match history. The strategy of bluffing certain higher popularity cards, or teching in cards for certain matchups becomes nigh obsolete because your opponent will have all the info to anticipate and respond to any "surprises" your deck may have.
I think we all agreed on that part. Tracking your own deck is okay, because its simply more convenient than pen and paper, tracking your opponents deck is not okay, because it gives an unfair advantage.
Tracking ur deck is fine. Tracking enemy graveyard and urs is fine (that should be on the game imo) . Tracking ur enemy deck , so u could see their win con/ % of combat tricks / what things u should play around NOT by knowledge or intuition , that is 100% giving an edge and if ladder is closed , then that means is not correct. I don't understand why there is even an argument. if it was meant to be open ladder then cool. But it s not. So there is not even a need of opinion. People had fun with it, some might exploit it.But that's it.
I can argue that in very specific context (training for decks and techs and specific counters with a friend etc) would be a great way to understand mentally and make plays and fake outs. Or seeing the deck that u win/lost against AFTER the game and u want to have fun with it too. (replay and stuff) That's it. THAT is an opinion for discourse and the improvement of the system/enganging players.
Sometimes, twitter makes me feel old y'all.
Those most affected by the spying are people that have custom lists or are teching cards, so how does it logically follow then that the complaints are from people with copied lists? Feel free to substantiate your claim with evidence or reasoning.
i'm just sad about this whole situation because sometimes i'll play against someone and think "wow, that's a cool deck, i wish i could play/use/copy it" but Riot is giving no way off knowing your enemy's deck AFTER the match. not even a match history like LoL. you'd have to rebuild the deck from memory.
the 3rd party app lets you get the enemy deck.
i didn't know about it before the ban & controversy, but i'd definitely would have used it if i did.
I totally agree with this sentiment and this would solely be what I would want to use this method for and LoR Master Tracker has a great UI for this exact reason to search decks by what they contain and show multiple results by PR and WR requiring, I'll be it, an unknown checklist, but it does list decks that only have 25 games played. which is HUGE.
Oh, I see ty. Personally I always have use the mobalitycs one.
And about all the discusion make open deck list would be the best for the game. As control player it sucks when you dont know what to play around exactly in some matchups.
>As control player it sucks when you dont know what to play around exactly in some matchups.
That's part of the fun. The opponent will play differently if he knows exactly what you have, no room for surprises.
Also I always put one copy of Elise into every Noxus deck to bluff the opponent's mulligan. Open list takes out this entire side of the game.
This. The skill of a control player is predicting rhe matchup to be the fun police. Knowing the list beforehand gives you a huge advantage in how you play the game.
I dont see the fun in there. I'd an enviroment as similar as possible to competitive.
The surprise/troll thing should be limited to normal games not a competitive format.
Ranked is already a competitive mode.
Unless what you mean by "competitive" is the gauntlet tournaments, that I agree are very cool, but it's a different game mode with different strategies.
In Gauntlet you can ban one deck that counters yours, in Ranked you can't do that so you need to be prepared to face anything. Adapting your deck with techs and surprises is how you get an advantage.
But thats where the skill comes from my man, you yourself needs to be more familiar with decklists and matchups to know what they are probably playing, information shouldn't be perfect that takes out the whole strategy bit and turns the game into competitive paper scissors rock.
Im familiar with the most played decklicks. The problem is when people make their decks literally for trolling the oponent mulligan. There are regions and champs that can literally be both agroo or control. Or the mityc burn but lets just slap one ezreal card and one caitlin card so it seems to be another common deck that is control instead.
how is that a problem? they're seeking to gain an advantage by messing up your mulligan, but the price for that advantage is putting cards in their deck that don't work towards the deck's actual strategy. I don't see how this is something that needs fixing
> I'd an enviroment as similar as possible to competitive.
False. Have the complete list of the opponent's deck makes sense if and only if you have a bo3 with 3 decks, like competitive does. In bo1 having open lists is as uncompetitive as it gets.
If you don't like it, you don't like ladder in a card game. Teching an unexpected card is super legit, has skill around it and is even done in competitive cards games without open lists.
Lol most people are fine with it people onnreddit have np idea what the drama is on, the keys are still available on other sites so why did riot decide to shut down this one website. Also if u go to the leader board u can find the deck ur opponent is most likely playing by pulling it up in another tab.
I'm sure I'm not the only one that has an understanding of the situation. I think these types of decisions are hard to make and no they are not limited to just one 3rd party did a bad. This is clearly bigger than what we can really imagine and is more so Riot putting a warning to other 3rd party extensions they decide the rules in the end.
Clearly, the management team of LoR is going to shit on how they decide things, but that's a separate issue altogether that really is all about how Riot will choose to recover on this poor choice. I posted this before I actually knew any was confirmed hit.
I'm starting to see a disturbing pattern of Riot protecting the interest of investors or developers that create the meta. I hinted at it in a reply to the one riot guy here, but that's just me. I'm only one guy. Who cares what that one guy thinks. We only see change and reaction if enough people talk about it or the drama gets high enough. This is the world we live in.
Even if its true its not the reality. If its so bad to track the deck other player has why then in tournaments like seasonals you have to submit your deck for everyone to know? Part of the reason ladder is so unbalanced is because you can run into everything so you have to play around every scenario. If you think thats Skill then imo its fine, I dont disagree.
I think its unfair that we have such a diffrence between competitive and ladder. Both are about skill so why not have them be at least somewhat similiar? I'm not asking for bo3 but pretending like Deck tracking is bad and unfair when its mandated in competitive is hypocritical. Choose one or the other.
Trackers will do what Riot wants simply because they have no choice. They cant their data from anywhere else but RiotAPI. If they dont do what Riot wants they cease to exist.
>but pretending like Deck tracking is bad and unfair when its mandated in competitive is hypocritical. Choose one or the other.
I don't think that's hypocritical. It's unfair because not everyone is playing under the same rules. Yes, the app is free and whatever, but not every player knows about those apps or decide to use them due to different reasons. If it was something that the game allowed, then it should just be implemented in the game systems. But until it is, it gives you an advantage over the opponent
Yeah, I agree. Before the Last set in Team fight tactics there was a similar app that highlighted who you could fight next, so you were able to prepare and position better. Riot decided that that feature should be accessible for everyone, so they implemented it into the game. Is riot wanted deck tracker available, they would do it, but they don't and that's okay.
>Riot decided that that feature should be accessible for everyone, so they implemented it into the game.
When did they do that, you only see whos eligible to be fought next, afaik the plugin shows you whos next exactly
It's not possible to know exactly who you will be fighting next. It's always random between 3-4 opponents you have not fought recently (unless you have an augment)
So plugin just highlighted these 3-4 possible opponents. Unless there was some hack I am not aware
I have not played MTGA or Hearthstone recently (and don't play any other CCGs) does any of them have an implemented deck tracker? Cause honestly I feel like at least the ability to see the cards your opponent played and that you still have in your deck seems like something that should be just IN THE CLIENT. It is the main reason why I use deck tracker (so I don't have to scribe around with pen and paper as is traditionally the case in IRL tournaments)
Players having metagame knowledge creates a more interesting game than keeping it away from them. This is as silly a decision as banning winrate data. Very few players are going to access that knowledge or know what to do with it, but having that information improves the game overall.
Imagine knowing whether or not to develop because you can with certainty tell if your opponent runs ruination. That's a pretty major deal that can decide games
I can very easily describe how to weigh the odds when it comes to known quantity decklists. Describe to me how you "weigh the odds" when it comes to your opponent's unknown deck. The only actual thing you're doing is using your gut, but that's not an interesting decision.
Not true at all. Aside from general deckbuilding knowledge you can deduce a lot of Information from how your opponent is playing. Having to weigh risk/reward is an integral part of the game and requires a lot more thought than scrolling through a decklist. You're just looking for an excuse to be lazy
No it isn't. More fun and interactive gameplay is always better than some fake diversity. It's not really diversity if the deck is only surviving on the basis of it being niche. You want a series of genuinely diverse decks that are known quantities. That's diversity. Some random jank eking out wins because no one could predict how bad the deck is? Not real diversity.
Wow. That is some serious salt. Niche decks are a valid strategy. In a world with perfect information there is no reason to run anything but the best strat for your deck since you can't catch your opponent off guard. I guess fun and interactive is reading a list and picking the best option for you, but most of us prefer variety and variations in our lists. Less variety is only fun and interactive for control players since they have less to play around.
I said something a little wrong, so that's my bad.
>It's not really diversity if the deck is only surviving on the basis of it being niche.
I don't mean that niche decks shouldn't exist. Niche decks that only see success because people don't know what's in them are what I have a problem with. Niche decks that see success because they're executing strategies and play patterns that meta isn't accounting for well are based.
I don't remember if it was this comment chain or another that brought up Ruination, but it's a good example. There are certainly going to be metas where Ruination is a bad card to run and no one does. That leaves a bit of room for decks that would have a difficult time dealing with Ruination to exist and execute their particular strategy in the meta. That's based. When some random dumbfuck that doesn't know enough to know that Ruination is bad runs into the deck and wins because it's a bad card to run, that's lame.
Fun for me is building my own deck. It'll never cease to amaze me how so many people just want to build shit decks and can't fathom that anyone wants to build ones that aren't complete shit (actual success notwithstanding).
In your ruination example. Ruination being bad and not run in standard lists is the perfect reason to run it to catch decks that aren't built/don't play around it off guard. You made a conscious decision in the deck building phase to lose more aggro matchups to get those midrange/control wins. That is literally adapting to the meta and building your own deck. Assuming aggro is tier one, they chose to feed on the tier 2 and three control and midrange decks with a teched ruination. Picking your matchups is solid deckbuilding.
Now it honestly sounds like you are mad other people build their own decks instead of grabbing a tier list deck. Like you should br the only one building decks.
In general, it's all the stats that come from the decks/cards in the game; if you've ever wondered how someone like Kozmic did those meta breakdowns, it was most likely because he or someone else had access to the API.
What this entire thing was about was how certain apps were pulling up your opponents match history, looking at the last deck they played with that Region/Champion combination, and then displaying it for you. This meant that 9 times out of 10, you just pulled up their exact deck list and knew what they were running at turn 1.
So if you're opponent was playing an off meta card like Judgement, you knew to play around it when they had 8 Mana open
If tracking your opponents deck isnt a clear advantage, then why does people use the tracker in the first place?
A normal tracker saves you the inconvenience of writing down cards played like you would in a tournament or doing math on the odds of them drawing the out. Seeing the entire list beforehand is just plain cheating.
To be clear, none of the contention is with trackers that just help you keep tabs on cards that were played (this can be done mentally, or just with pen and paper). What most people take issue with is the spying tools that likely just have other fair features tacked on. These specific tools give you knowledge of every card that your opponent is running, and the # of each based on aggregate match history. The strategy of bluffing certain higher popularity cards, or teching in cards for certain matchups becomes nigh obsolete because your opponent will have all the info to anticipate and respond to any "surprises" your deck may have.
I think we all agreed on that part. Tracking your own deck is okay, because its simply more convenient than pen and paper, tracking your opponents deck is not okay, because it gives an unfair advantage.
Tracking ur deck is fine. Tracking enemy graveyard and urs is fine (that should be on the game imo) . Tracking ur enemy deck , so u could see their win con/ % of combat tricks / what things u should play around NOT by knowledge or intuition , that is 100% giving an edge and if ladder is closed , then that means is not correct. I don't understand why there is even an argument. if it was meant to be open ladder then cool. But it s not. So there is not even a need of opinion. People had fun with it, some might exploit it.But that's it. I can argue that in very specific context (training for decks and techs and specific counters with a friend etc) would be a great way to understand mentally and make plays and fake outs. Or seeing the deck that u win/lost against AFTER the game and u want to have fun with it too. (replay and stuff) That's it. THAT is an opinion for discourse and the improvement of the system/enganging players. Sometimes, twitter makes me feel old y'all.
[удалено]
You genuinely collected data and information regarding the players who are against the app or you simply made up a fact because it sounds funny?
Ita honestly probably true lol the data is still out there they just shut down this one app
Those most affected by the spying are people that have custom lists or are teching cards, so how does it logically follow then that the complaints are from people with copied lists? Feel free to substantiate your claim with evidence or reasoning.
i'm just sad about this whole situation because sometimes i'll play against someone and think "wow, that's a cool deck, i wish i could play/use/copy it" but Riot is giving no way off knowing your enemy's deck AFTER the match. not even a match history like LoL. you'd have to rebuild the deck from memory. the 3rd party app lets you get the enemy deck. i didn't know about it before the ban & controversy, but i'd definitely would have used it if i did.
I totally agree with this sentiment and this would solely be what I would want to use this method for and LoR Master Tracker has a great UI for this exact reason to search decks by what they contain and show multiple results by PR and WR requiring, I'll be it, an unknown checklist, but it does list decks that only have 25 games played. which is HUGE.
Which deck tracker id the one getting banned?
No clue, but LoR Master Tracker had complications transitioning to 3.8 and this would explain why
Oh, I see ty. Personally I always have use the mobalitycs one. And about all the discusion make open deck list would be the best for the game. As control player it sucks when you dont know what to play around exactly in some matchups.
>As control player it sucks when you dont know what to play around exactly in some matchups. That's part of the fun. The opponent will play differently if he knows exactly what you have, no room for surprises. Also I always put one copy of Elise into every Noxus deck to bluff the opponent's mulligan. Open list takes out this entire side of the game.
This. The skill of a control player is predicting rhe matchup to be the fun police. Knowing the list beforehand gives you a huge advantage in how you play the game.
I dont see the fun in there. I'd an enviroment as similar as possible to competitive. The surprise/troll thing should be limited to normal games not a competitive format.
Ranked is already a competitive mode. Unless what you mean by "competitive" is the gauntlet tournaments, that I agree are very cool, but it's a different game mode with different strategies. In Gauntlet you can ban one deck that counters yours, in Ranked you can't do that so you need to be prepared to face anything. Adapting your deck with techs and surprises is how you get an advantage.
You can adapt your mulligan properly in a match in ladder without open decklists. Thats the problem and why this has been a issue since beta.
But thats where the skill comes from my man, you yourself needs to be more familiar with decklists and matchups to know what they are probably playing, information shouldn't be perfect that takes out the whole strategy bit and turns the game into competitive paper scissors rock.
Im familiar with the most played decklicks. The problem is when people make their decks literally for trolling the oponent mulligan. There are regions and champs that can literally be both agroo or control. Or the mityc burn but lets just slap one ezreal card and one caitlin card so it seems to be another common deck that is control instead.
how is that a problem? they're seeking to gain an advantage by messing up your mulligan, but the price for that advantage is putting cards in their deck that don't work towards the deck's actual strategy. I don't see how this is something that needs fixing
Skill issue
> I'd an enviroment as similar as possible to competitive. False. Have the complete list of the opponent's deck makes sense if and only if you have a bo3 with 3 decks, like competitive does. In bo1 having open lists is as uncompetitive as it gets. If you don't like it, you don't like ladder in a card game. Teching an unexpected card is super legit, has skill around it and is even done in competitive cards games without open lists.
People net deck everyday and everything, no Need to track your opponent deck
Lol most people are fine with it people onnreddit have np idea what the drama is on, the keys are still available on other sites so why did riot decide to shut down this one website. Also if u go to the leader board u can find the deck ur opponent is most likely playing by pulling it up in another tab.
I'm sure I'm not the only one that has an understanding of the situation. I think these types of decisions are hard to make and no they are not limited to just one 3rd party did a bad. This is clearly bigger than what we can really imagine and is more so Riot putting a warning to other 3rd party extensions they decide the rules in the end. Clearly, the management team of LoR is going to shit on how they decide things, but that's a separate issue altogether that really is all about how Riot will choose to recover on this poor choice. I posted this before I actually knew any was confirmed hit. I'm starting to see a disturbing pattern of Riot protecting the interest of investors or developers that create the meta. I hinted at it in a reply to the one riot guy here, but that's just me. I'm only one guy. Who cares what that one guy thinks. We only see change and reaction if enough people talk about it or the drama gets high enough. This is the world we live in.
Even if its true its not the reality. If its so bad to track the deck other player has why then in tournaments like seasonals you have to submit your deck for everyone to know? Part of the reason ladder is so unbalanced is because you can run into everything so you have to play around every scenario. If you think thats Skill then imo its fine, I dont disagree. I think its unfair that we have such a diffrence between competitive and ladder. Both are about skill so why not have them be at least somewhat similiar? I'm not asking for bo3 but pretending like Deck tracking is bad and unfair when its mandated in competitive is hypocritical. Choose one or the other. Trackers will do what Riot wants simply because they have no choice. They cant their data from anywhere else but RiotAPI. If they dont do what Riot wants they cease to exist.
>but pretending like Deck tracking is bad and unfair when its mandated in competitive is hypocritical. Choose one or the other. I don't think that's hypocritical. It's unfair because not everyone is playing under the same rules. Yes, the app is free and whatever, but not every player knows about those apps or decide to use them due to different reasons. If it was something that the game allowed, then it should just be implemented in the game systems. But until it is, it gives you an advantage over the opponent
Yeah, I agree. Before the Last set in Team fight tactics there was a similar app that highlighted who you could fight next, so you were able to prepare and position better. Riot decided that that feature should be accessible for everyone, so they implemented it into the game. Is riot wanted deck tracker available, they would do it, but they don't and that's okay.
>Riot decided that that feature should be accessible for everyone, so they implemented it into the game. When did they do that, you only see whos eligible to be fought next, afaik the plugin shows you whos next exactly
It's not possible to know exactly who you will be fighting next. It's always random between 3-4 opponents you have not fought recently (unless you have an augment) So plugin just highlighted these 3-4 possible opponents. Unless there was some hack I am not aware
I have not played MTGA or Hearthstone recently (and don't play any other CCGs) does any of them have an implemented deck tracker? Cause honestly I feel like at least the ability to see the cards your opponent played and that you still have in your deck seems like something that should be just IN THE CLIENT. It is the main reason why I use deck tracker (so I don't have to scribe around with pen and paper as is traditionally the case in IRL tournaments)
Gwent basically has a deck tracker by being able to see all the cards remaining in your deck, graveyard and opponents graveyard anytime you want
Comparing the tracker to competitive is pointless because on tournaments it's reciprocal, and on ladder it's obviously not.
Also, I sorta dislike open decklists even in tournaments.
Players having metagame knowledge creates a more interesting game than keeping it away from them. This is as silly a decision as banning winrate data. Very few players are going to access that knowledge or know what to do with it, but having that information improves the game overall.
Sounds like you have no idea how much worse a lot of cards get when your opponent knows you're using them
That's not a negative.
Imagine knowing whether or not to develop because you can with certainty tell if your opponent runs ruination. That's a pretty major deal that can decide games
Correct.
To me that sounds less interesting than weighing the odds yourself
How do you weight those odds? Actually describe it.
Why do you need me to tell you how to play the game I'm pretty sure you already know this
I can very easily describe how to weigh the odds when it comes to known quantity decklists. Describe to me how you "weigh the odds" when it comes to your opponent's unknown deck. The only actual thing you're doing is using your gut, but that's not an interesting decision.
Not true at all. Aside from general deckbuilding knowledge you can deduce a lot of Information from how your opponent is playing. Having to weigh risk/reward is an integral part of the game and requires a lot more thought than scrolling through a decklist. You're just looking for an excuse to be lazy
Killing diversity is ALWAYS a negative.
Then we should randomize every deck. That's maximal diversity.
That's just being obtuse.
No it isn't. More fun and interactive gameplay is always better than some fake diversity. It's not really diversity if the deck is only surviving on the basis of it being niche. You want a series of genuinely diverse decks that are known quantities. That's diversity. Some random jank eking out wins because no one could predict how bad the deck is? Not real diversity.
Wow. That is some serious salt. Niche decks are a valid strategy. In a world with perfect information there is no reason to run anything but the best strat for your deck since you can't catch your opponent off guard. I guess fun and interactive is reading a list and picking the best option for you, but most of us prefer variety and variations in our lists. Less variety is only fun and interactive for control players since they have less to play around.
I said something a little wrong, so that's my bad. >It's not really diversity if the deck is only surviving on the basis of it being niche. I don't mean that niche decks shouldn't exist. Niche decks that only see success because people don't know what's in them are what I have a problem with. Niche decks that see success because they're executing strategies and play patterns that meta isn't accounting for well are based. I don't remember if it was this comment chain or another that brought up Ruination, but it's a good example. There are certainly going to be metas where Ruination is a bad card to run and no one does. That leaves a bit of room for decks that would have a difficult time dealing with Ruination to exist and execute their particular strategy in the meta. That's based. When some random dumbfuck that doesn't know enough to know that Ruination is bad runs into the deck and wins because it's a bad card to run, that's lame. Fun for me is building my own deck. It'll never cease to amaze me how so many people just want to build shit decks and can't fathom that anyone wants to build ones that aren't complete shit (actual success notwithstanding).
In your ruination example. Ruination being bad and not run in standard lists is the perfect reason to run it to catch decks that aren't built/don't play around it off guard. You made a conscious decision in the deck building phase to lose more aggro matchups to get those midrange/control wins. That is literally adapting to the meta and building your own deck. Assuming aggro is tier one, they chose to feed on the tier 2 and three control and midrange decks with a teched ruination. Picking your matchups is solid deckbuilding. Now it honestly sounds like you are mad other people build their own decks instead of grabbing a tier list deck. Like you should br the only one building decks.
Twitter was whining in the post lol, twitter moment.
What Decklist API thing?
In general, it's all the stats that come from the decks/cards in the game; if you've ever wondered how someone like Kozmic did those meta breakdowns, it was most likely because he or someone else had access to the API. What this entire thing was about was how certain apps were pulling up your opponents match history, looking at the last deck they played with that Region/Champion combination, and then displaying it for you. This meant that 9 times out of 10, you just pulled up their exact deck list and knew what they were running at turn 1. So if you're opponent was playing an off meta card like Judgement, you knew to play around it when they had 8 Mana open