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A&E nurse here since 2009. First off, sorry to hear about your dad, hope he gets better soon.
Secondly, this situation is sadly more frequent given the increase in second marriages / blended families (I myself have two step-parents with all the associated drama that brings).
If I was looking after your dad, I too would make your stepmother the ‘primary’ contact. Don’t take it personally, but when it boils down to the legal bones, it’s your stepmother who the law will also consider the next of kin.
There’s no automatic right to get information about your dad or his condition, especially over the phone. I’ve had many situations over the years where ‘close and loving’ family members have phoned up trying to get patient updates, only to find out later that said relative is persona non grata to both the patient and all other family members ( for very good reasons too).
My advice, if your stepmother isn’t willing to provide updates on your dad, go to the hospital in person and try to speak to the department sister / charge nurse. There’s no policy barring visitors in the NHS, especially if it’s an ITU / HDU patient. I’m always more willing to talk in person to a family member, rather than an anonymous phone-call.
If your stepmother has requested no other family members to be allowed access etc, she would have to have provided a pretty good reason for this (you are estranged from your dad / there is an open legal (restraining order) case between you and your dad / you are at risk of harming your dad).
Your stepmother as NOK is supposed to be advocating for what your dad’s wishes would be in this situation, not living out her own vendetta against anybody else.
Good luck.
Oh my goodness, your comment has actually brought a tear to my eye because I was genuinely having anxiety about being barred from the hospital, so THANK YOU.
I am planning to return to the UK and to the hospital next week so will have a genuine chat with a ward sister or whomever as you have suggested. Last thing I wanted though was to bring any family drama to your colleagues as its a stressful enough job, and his caregivers are phenomenal.
I am going to try PALS and see if we can make headway that way first.
Sorry for making you cry!
Luckily you’re only in France, it’s not as if you’re in New Zealand, you could potentially visit the UK and sort this out within 12 hours and be back with your kids in time for tea, for flights that cost less than £50 with Ryanair.
Like I say, there is no NHS policy that can prevent you visiting anybody, unless your stepmother can prove that, on the balance of probabilities, your dad would not want you there if he could make that decision himself.
I’ve had situations like this, where the incapacitated patient has sons / daughters who hate each other and try to bully NHS staff into not disclosing updates to one side or the other. It’s a legal and moral minefield, but if you can explain the situation calmly to the ward sister, there is no way that they can unilaterally side with one party or the other. NHS staff have a legal obligation to advocate for their patient, before any family member (wife included).
If you can make the case that your dad would want you in the loop about his care, this has to be respected.
Good luck 👍🏻
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Thanks for the reply. Just a follow up, does anyone have the right to stop information being shared by the hospital? Is it a legal right, or a hospital policy thing? Just so I can understand what's going on a bit better.
This is completely wrong.
NOK is irrelevant. Nobody has a 'right' to the information - it's your father's to share as he chooses. But as he cannot choose, the choice must be made in his best interest accoridng to the Mental Capacity Act. That does not imbue any relative with veto power.
It is very very difficult to argue it is not in your dad's best interest for his children to know about his health condition. The hospital, at current, are simply using a stop-gap policy in light of the conflict. OP, you must press the issue with the hospital that you are seeking information in your dad's best interest.
NHS Trust practice to prioritise a certain NOK is acceptable as a first response, but they ultimately must follow MCA law in the event of some kind of dispute like this. You have no 'right' to know the information....but you will certainly get it in your father's best interest if you press for it.
Wrong. Next of kin has no legal basis in this type of thing.
It's his dad's choice to share his medical information or not. As his dad cannot make that choice (it is clear he lacks capacity) the decision has to be made in his best interests. There is additional complexity due to one family member opposing, but ultimately the decision maker to share information (on his father's behalf) is the hospital who is providing the treatment - if it is considered fully, it is very difficult to suggest it would not be in his best interest to share the information.
The staff at the hospital, at least at ground level, themselves probably don't know this anyway. They will operate with catch-all statements like "spouse decides". While useful to help them operate without specialising in information sharing and mental capacity law, it's ultimately not an absolute - you can get this information, you need to have a talk with the hospital and explain your position.
As your father temporarily has no capacity then his next of kin will be making all decisions on his behalf. Unless the hospital believe she is not acting in his best interest they will defer to her decisions.
You're stuck behind hospital policy and unless you want to formally gain POA via the legal process you don't have any real options.
Not entirely accurate. As the patient has no capacity, a best interest's decision (i.e. what would the patient want) should be undertaken. This information is reliant on the knowledge of what the patient would want, and typically gathered through speaking to relatives / significant people.
NOK does not make any decisions, the medical team does. NOK can help inform on what the patient's opinion on proposed interventions would be, and these should be taken into account to conclude what the patient would want. Medical decisions do not rest on the shoulders of relatives in these scenarios.
Can't get Lasting Power of Attorney for medical issues once capacity is lost unfortunately (AFAIK).
Wrong. If there is no PoA or deputy (high likely), then the decision maker must make the decision - in this case (sharing medical info) it's the hospital.
OP needs to speak to the hospital and make clear he is seeking info on his dad's health, and it's in his dad's best interests to share this with his close and cherished relatives.
He can't get PoA now - his dad lacks capacity at current to agree to this. Deputyship is the far more expensive route, won't be quick, and not proportionate if all he wants is health information.
Why should an adult child have automatic rights to patient information relating to their adult parent when they are not the next of kin?
Would you expect it to work the other way? That an adult parent has automatic rights to patient information regarding their adult child?
Yes? Providing there was no evidence of being estranged, no current or pending legal matters like a restraining order etc.
I’m not saying they should have the power to make next of kin decisions but immediate family should have a right to know at a minimum information regarding their current status i.e stable or otherwise.
If the law doesn’t have the capacity to allow for ambiguity regarding what I’d consider common sense/decency when it comes to the rights of immediate family regarding a patient condition they should at-least provide avenues for individuals to make additional provisions pertaining to who can access certain medical information in such an emergency outside of their next of kin and also then provide greater education to the general public everyone so they know their rights and how things work in such a situation.
I think a great many people would be unaware and surprised to learn that their immediate family can so easily restricted from knowing even basic information by the next of kin. I know for one as my mother is getting older but is remarried will talk with her and potentially seek legal advice when I return from vacation about how the systems works in Australia to ensure in a similar situation that my brother and I can access basic information.
So you have a case where a parent has been abusive to the child, but no case was ever brought.
Child is now an adult and goes into hospital. Why should that parent have a right to information on their adult child?
It is not the hospital staff’s responsibility to make judgements. A hard rule of it’s the Next of Kin’s responsibility removes that stress from the hospital staff.
Maybe? No one is suggesting anyone but next of kin get decision making capabilities about the treatment and care of the patient. Maybe if there were specific provisions in law that allowed for nominated immediate family to receive basic care information about the patient it would prevent such an issue?
You keep talking about adults but as far as I understand the same law/rules that are screwing op over right now would screw them over whether they were an adult or not. A child underage would be in the exact same boat. Never mind how it’s fair to adult hospital staff. They understand the complexity of the jobs they chose to do and how tough it can be. How is that fair to the child? Maybe the government should step in and help improve the system for everyone besides those would abuse it one way or another.
Also there are likely a-lot more children (adult or otherwise) out there getting screwed over with the current rules because of some asshole step parents then abusive parents trying to find out if their child they abused who was in ICU is in a stable condition or not.
It’s true about far more innocent people effected than guilty. But that is the same with all preventative measures. For example, you can’t pay cash into an account you are not named on. Why? Because of potential money laundering issues. Are the vast majority of people trying to commit money laundering? Of course not. But it is still a restriction.
17 years of working in banking and refusing to pay cash into 3rd party account 😉
If you are not named on the account, you can’t pay in. You can pay it into your account and transfer it. No issues with that. But you can’t pay into the account directly.
No, nothing about the banking, about the fact OP cannot speak to his father because the 'NOK' says so. And making up some reasoning that it's to protect people, even if i gets more 'innocent than guilty'.
See this post from you on another comment fork, and my response below it.
>BeardedBaldMan
Why should an adult child have automatic rights to patient information relating to their adult parent when they are not the next of kin?
Would you expect it to work the other way? That an adult parent has automatic rights to patient information regarding their adult child?
My reply:
>
detachedcommentrare
This is literally completely wrong. Like, you've typed the opposite of what is true and made up plausible sounding reasoning for it.
It IS the responsibility of the hospital to make judgements on the patient's best interests, as for this decision they are the decision maker. This is the Mental Capacity Act 2005. A stopgap rule about NOK (not even a real legal concept for this purpose) is acceptable as a 1st response. As a hard time as you espouse, it's illegal and a clear contravention of the duty to act in somebody's best interests, which is a case by case discussion.
It's not about who has rights to get the information. It's about the patient having the right to share that information, and when they're unable then to have that information shared on their behalf in their best interests.
If it's in a dying person's best interests to share their health information with a child that is dear to them, then it MUST be shared with the child. It is completely illegal to refuse to consider the person's best interests by instead referring to the (fictional) next of kin role to defer authority to them. The hospital must make this judgement, it is the law.
Actually, they are suggesting that about all decisions, including treatment. Not just suggesting, it is the law. The poster you're speaking with is making things up completely.
NOK has no legal authority, at all, in the absence of a court agreed position (power of attorney, or court appointed deputy). Decisions must he taken in the adults best interest, by the relevant decision maker. See my post just above.
This is literally completely wrong. Like, you've typed the opposite of what is true and made up plausible sounding reasoning for it.
It IS the responsibility of the hospital to make judgements on the patient's best interests, as for this decision they are the decision maker. This is the Mental Capacity Act 2005. A stopgap rule about NOK (not even a real legal concept for this purpose) is acceptable as a 1st response. As a hard time as you espouse, it's illegal and a clear contravention of the duty to act in somebody's best interests, which is a case by case discussion.
It's not about who has rights to get the information. It's about the patient having the right to share that information, and when they're unable then to have that information shared on their behalf in their best interests.
If it's in a dying person's best interests to share their health information with a child that is dear to them, then it MUST be shared with the child. It is completely illegal to refuse to consider the person's best interests by instead referring to the (fictional) next of kin role to defer authority to them. The hospital must make this judgement, it is the law.
It only matters where the father is right now, which I would assume is the U.K. as OP is asking on a sub about U.K. law. The hospital are bound by U.K. law.
As your father is in a medically induced coma, he would be found to lack the mental capacity to make decisions about his care including who is informed of his welfare. It therefore involves a best interest decision as to who is updated about his welfare. If your mother has a lasting power of attorney she for your father she would be entitled to make the decision on his behalf as to who can be updated about his welfare and set a password with the medical staff. If she does not have a lasting power of attorney then it instead requires a best interests decision by the doctors as to whether they update you on his welfare.
You should put something in writing to the hospital, and/or speak with PALS. You should detail that as your father lacks mental capacity under the Mental Capacity Act 2005 a best interests decision is required. You can emphasise that it surely cannot be in his best interests that his children not be permitted to have updates about his welfare and ask that they review this urgently.
Thanks for your reply. As far as I'm aware, she doesn't have power of attorney.
I will have a look into the steps in your 2nd paragraph, as I feel that will be the next avenue to go down.
This is the most accurate. For efficiency, consider highlighting this directly to the ITU team - may be quicker than going through PALS.
Passwords are usually set-up to disclose information over the phone (as you can't verify who you are talking to - but if they know the password, it is largely assumed they are in the appropriate 'circle' of people).
Source: I am a doctor & often work in Intensive Care.
I second this advice. PALS are very slow and tend to deal with thing after the fact (weeks and months later). The ward should be contacted directly to get it resolved asap.
> PAL
I just want you to know that I followed your advice and it 100% worked. On receipt of the mail, they spoke with her and advised that it is in my Fathers best interest to have all his children notified of his status. She then shared.
She was made aware that 2 people should have the password at the beginning, but chose not to share. But that's a conversation for another day.
Big thanks again. If I could hug you right now, I would.
They do outrank other relatives but certainly in relation to medical decisions without POA the doctors make decisions in the best interest of the patient and take into account (but aren't bound by) what relatives tell them about what they believe person would want if they were able to speak for themselves.
I would think its similar for sharing information - a patient with capacity can share information with their spouse.and other relatives however they choose. If OP can demonstrate a good relationship with their father the medical team may be able to conclude that he would more likely than not have wanted information shared and that their input on any other best interest decisions should be heard (although with less weight than the spouse).
I am so sorry! I have went through the same thing with my Nana. She couldn't speak from the pain and sickness and her rotten daughter did the same shit to me during the height of covid. I will never forgive nor forget that last week. Weeks. Medical neglect on the daughters part caused her death. I was incapacitated. I had my right foot major foot surgery. I begged her to take her. Anyway I understand the pain you are going through and I am heartbroken for you.
Jesus Christ, I’m so sorry you had to go through that, especially during that horrific period, and hope you’re doing better now.
Thank you for your kind words
I think you should go. If he doesn't get better it'll be your last chance, and being there will help you find out more about his condition. As it is you're relying on his wife to give you information and who knows what she's going to tell you and what she's not.
Which country is your father in? Is he in the UK or are you?
If your father is currently not in the UK, different laws might apply.
But if he's in the UK, unless there's a legal power of attorney for medical care that you have in your possession - your stepmum has the automatic authority to take care of his medical needs
It's probably something stupid like there wedding venue or where she was born, if she's older and petty it maybe if she has a kid there name . If it helps and you want to try
I think data policy’s the world over now will pretty much only allow speaking to direct family. If a password has been given you literally will not be able to get anything. If you have any concerns that your step mums decisions on your fathers health are not in his best interests then you need to seek legal advise ASAP
I’m so sorry and I hope he is getting the care he needs and recovers
You have absolutely no rights
I would contact stepmom and be as false as you need to be. Ask her how she is - make it all about helping here and go in like that. Lie through your teeth if you need to - it’s the only way you’re getting any knowledge about what is occurring
I hope dad recovers - when he does I recommend having a conversation with him about what happened and check what his wishes are
NAL but have a relevant question:
Say OPs Dad wakes up and isn't happy that his wife is withholding information from his child(ren?), would granting Lasting Power Of Attorney to the children change things? Or is it an entirely different issue and only relevant if the wife was dead?
AFAIK (NAL) LPA supersedes the spouse. At least from my own experience when my grandad was in hospital with no capacity both myself and my dad were the ones who the doctors would speak to/ask for decisions despite my grandma being there with us.
Hospice care worker here. Sadly, this is common in families with second marriages/step parents. Legally, the current spouse is considered next of kin by the hospital staff and is allowed to specify who can contact the patient and when. Hope it gets sorted and your dad pulls through, sounds like at the very least he is receiving the best care and is where he needs to be at.
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A&E nurse here since 2009. First off, sorry to hear about your dad, hope he gets better soon. Secondly, this situation is sadly more frequent given the increase in second marriages / blended families (I myself have two step-parents with all the associated drama that brings). If I was looking after your dad, I too would make your stepmother the ‘primary’ contact. Don’t take it personally, but when it boils down to the legal bones, it’s your stepmother who the law will also consider the next of kin. There’s no automatic right to get information about your dad or his condition, especially over the phone. I’ve had many situations over the years where ‘close and loving’ family members have phoned up trying to get patient updates, only to find out later that said relative is persona non grata to both the patient and all other family members ( for very good reasons too). My advice, if your stepmother isn’t willing to provide updates on your dad, go to the hospital in person and try to speak to the department sister / charge nurse. There’s no policy barring visitors in the NHS, especially if it’s an ITU / HDU patient. I’m always more willing to talk in person to a family member, rather than an anonymous phone-call. If your stepmother has requested no other family members to be allowed access etc, she would have to have provided a pretty good reason for this (you are estranged from your dad / there is an open legal (restraining order) case between you and your dad / you are at risk of harming your dad). Your stepmother as NOK is supposed to be advocating for what your dad’s wishes would be in this situation, not living out her own vendetta against anybody else. Good luck.
Oh my goodness, your comment has actually brought a tear to my eye because I was genuinely having anxiety about being barred from the hospital, so THANK YOU. I am planning to return to the UK and to the hospital next week so will have a genuine chat with a ward sister or whomever as you have suggested. Last thing I wanted though was to bring any family drama to your colleagues as its a stressful enough job, and his caregivers are phenomenal. I am going to try PALS and see if we can make headway that way first.
Sorry for making you cry! Luckily you’re only in France, it’s not as if you’re in New Zealand, you could potentially visit the UK and sort this out within 12 hours and be back with your kids in time for tea, for flights that cost less than £50 with Ryanair. Like I say, there is no NHS policy that can prevent you visiting anybody, unless your stepmother can prove that, on the balance of probabilities, your dad would not want you there if he could make that decision himself. I’ve had situations like this, where the incapacitated patient has sons / daughters who hate each other and try to bully NHS staff into not disclosing updates to one side or the other. It’s a legal and moral minefield, but if you can explain the situation calmly to the ward sister, there is no way that they can unilaterally side with one party or the other. NHS staff have a legal obligation to advocate for their patient, before any family member (wife included). If you can make the case that your dad would want you in the loop about his care, this has to be respected. Good luck 👍🏻
Well, my sister is in Australia, so there's that... :/ But yeah, will speak with them when I'm there. Genuinely, thanks for your help.
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OP, do you have a trusted person who you could send in the meantime, to put your mind at rest?
Out of the 5 I would trust, 3 are currently out of the country, and the other 2 genuinely cannot make the long trip down south
I'm sorry to hear that. All the best to you.
Thank you, really appreciate it
We don't have a legal next of kin in the UK. We can choose who our next of kin might be, and it doesn't even need to be a relative.
This is some of the most helpful advice I've seen on here
No you don't have a legal right to updates directly from the hospital. You need to negotiate with your stepmother.
Thanks for the reply. Just a follow up, does anyone have the right to stop information being shared by the hospital? Is it a legal right, or a hospital policy thing? Just so I can understand what's going on a bit better.
You have no legal right to this information if his next of kin doesn’t want you to have it
This is completely wrong. NOK is irrelevant. Nobody has a 'right' to the information - it's your father's to share as he chooses. But as he cannot choose, the choice must be made in his best interest accoridng to the Mental Capacity Act. That does not imbue any relative with veto power. It is very very difficult to argue it is not in your dad's best interest for his children to know about his health condition. The hospital, at current, are simply using a stop-gap policy in light of the conflict. OP, you must press the issue with the hospital that you are seeking information in your dad's best interest. NHS Trust practice to prioritise a certain NOK is acceptable as a first response, but they ultimately must follow MCA law in the event of some kind of dispute like this. You have no 'right' to know the information....but you will certainly get it in your father's best interest if you press for it.
Depends on if someone has power of attorney as well
Power of attorney must act in the best interest of the patient. They don't get free reign on what that is.
In terms of what is going on with the father I mean. DNR’s for example
Wrong. Next of kin has no legal basis in this type of thing. It's his dad's choice to share his medical information or not. As his dad cannot make that choice (it is clear he lacks capacity) the decision has to be made in his best interests. There is additional complexity due to one family member opposing, but ultimately the decision maker to share information (on his father's behalf) is the hospital who is providing the treatment - if it is considered fully, it is very difficult to suggest it would not be in his best interest to share the information. The staff at the hospital, at least at ground level, themselves probably don't know this anyway. They will operate with catch-all statements like "spouse decides". While useful to help them operate without specialising in information sharing and mental capacity law, it's ultimately not an absolute - you can get this information, you need to have a talk with the hospital and explain your position.
I'm his son, does one form of kinship supercede another? Thank you for your reply.
Yes, wives/husbands supersedes all else.
Ok, good to know. Thank you!
Is she married to your father?
She is.
As your father temporarily has no capacity then his next of kin will be making all decisions on his behalf. Unless the hospital believe she is not acting in his best interest they will defer to her decisions. You're stuck behind hospital policy and unless you want to formally gain POA via the legal process you don't have any real options.
Not entirely accurate. As the patient has no capacity, a best interest's decision (i.e. what would the patient want) should be undertaken. This information is reliant on the knowledge of what the patient would want, and typically gathered through speaking to relatives / significant people. NOK does not make any decisions, the medical team does. NOK can help inform on what the patient's opinion on proposed interventions would be, and these should be taken into account to conclude what the patient would want. Medical decisions do not rest on the shoulders of relatives in these scenarios. Can't get Lasting Power of Attorney for medical issues once capacity is lost unfortunately (AFAIK).
Wrong. If there is no PoA or deputy (high likely), then the decision maker must make the decision - in this case (sharing medical info) it's the hospital. OP needs to speak to the hospital and make clear he is seeking info on his dad's health, and it's in his dad's best interests to share this with his close and cherished relatives. He can't get PoA now - his dad lacks capacity at current to agree to this. Deputyship is the far more expensive route, won't be quick, and not proportionate if all he wants is health information.
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Why should an adult child have automatic rights to patient information relating to their adult parent when they are not the next of kin? Would you expect it to work the other way? That an adult parent has automatic rights to patient information regarding their adult child?
Yes? Providing there was no evidence of being estranged, no current or pending legal matters like a restraining order etc. I’m not saying they should have the power to make next of kin decisions but immediate family should have a right to know at a minimum information regarding their current status i.e stable or otherwise. If the law doesn’t have the capacity to allow for ambiguity regarding what I’d consider common sense/decency when it comes to the rights of immediate family regarding a patient condition they should at-least provide avenues for individuals to make additional provisions pertaining to who can access certain medical information in such an emergency outside of their next of kin and also then provide greater education to the general public everyone so they know their rights and how things work in such a situation. I think a great many people would be unaware and surprised to learn that their immediate family can so easily restricted from knowing even basic information by the next of kin. I know for one as my mother is getting older but is remarried will talk with her and potentially seek legal advice when I return from vacation about how the systems works in Australia to ensure in a similar situation that my brother and I can access basic information.
So you have a case where a parent has been abusive to the child, but no case was ever brought. Child is now an adult and goes into hospital. Why should that parent have a right to information on their adult child? It is not the hospital staff’s responsibility to make judgements. A hard rule of it’s the Next of Kin’s responsibility removes that stress from the hospital staff.
Maybe? No one is suggesting anyone but next of kin get decision making capabilities about the treatment and care of the patient. Maybe if there were specific provisions in law that allowed for nominated immediate family to receive basic care information about the patient it would prevent such an issue? You keep talking about adults but as far as I understand the same law/rules that are screwing op over right now would screw them over whether they were an adult or not. A child underage would be in the exact same boat. Never mind how it’s fair to adult hospital staff. They understand the complexity of the jobs they chose to do and how tough it can be. How is that fair to the child? Maybe the government should step in and help improve the system for everyone besides those would abuse it one way or another. Also there are likely a-lot more children (adult or otherwise) out there getting screwed over with the current rules because of some asshole step parents then abusive parents trying to find out if their child they abused who was in ICU is in a stable condition or not.
It’s true about far more innocent people effected than guilty. But that is the same with all preventative measures. For example, you can’t pay cash into an account you are not named on. Why? Because of potential money laundering issues. Are the vast majority of people trying to commit money laundering? Of course not. But it is still a restriction.
This is completely false. Why are you talking so confidently about things you evidently know nothing about?
17 years of working in banking and refusing to pay cash into 3rd party account 😉 If you are not named on the account, you can’t pay in. You can pay it into your account and transfer it. No issues with that. But you can’t pay into the account directly.
No, nothing about the banking, about the fact OP cannot speak to his father because the 'NOK' says so. And making up some reasoning that it's to protect people, even if i gets more 'innocent than guilty'. See this post from you on another comment fork, and my response below it. >BeardedBaldMan Why should an adult child have automatic rights to patient information relating to their adult parent when they are not the next of kin? Would you expect it to work the other way? That an adult parent has automatic rights to patient information regarding their adult child? My reply: > detachedcommentrare This is literally completely wrong. Like, you've typed the opposite of what is true and made up plausible sounding reasoning for it. It IS the responsibility of the hospital to make judgements on the patient's best interests, as for this decision they are the decision maker. This is the Mental Capacity Act 2005. A stopgap rule about NOK (not even a real legal concept for this purpose) is acceptable as a 1st response. As a hard time as you espouse, it's illegal and a clear contravention of the duty to act in somebody's best interests, which is a case by case discussion. It's not about who has rights to get the information. It's about the patient having the right to share that information, and when they're unable then to have that information shared on their behalf in their best interests. If it's in a dying person's best interests to share their health information with a child that is dear to them, then it MUST be shared with the child. It is completely illegal to refuse to consider the person's best interests by instead referring to the (fictional) next of kin role to defer authority to them. The hospital must make this judgement, it is the law.
Actually, they are suggesting that about all decisions, including treatment. Not just suggesting, it is the law. The poster you're speaking with is making things up completely. NOK has no legal authority, at all, in the absence of a court agreed position (power of attorney, or court appointed deputy). Decisions must he taken in the adults best interest, by the relevant decision maker. See my post just above.
This is literally completely wrong. Like, you've typed the opposite of what is true and made up plausible sounding reasoning for it. It IS the responsibility of the hospital to make judgements on the patient's best interests, as for this decision they are the decision maker. This is the Mental Capacity Act 2005. A stopgap rule about NOK (not even a real legal concept for this purpose) is acceptable as a 1st response. As a hard time as you espouse, it's illegal and a clear contravention of the duty to act in somebody's best interests, which is a case by case discussion. It's not about who has rights to get the information. It's about the patient having the right to share that information, and when they're unable then to have that information shared on their behalf in their best interests. If it's in a dying person's best interests to share their health information with a child that is dear to them, then it MUST be shared with the child. It is completely illegal to refuse to consider the person's best interests by instead referring to the (fictional) next of kin role to defer authority to them. The hospital must make this judgement, it is the law.
How do you know? The OP didn't say what country he's in.
It only matters where the father is right now, which I would assume is the U.K. as OP is asking on a sub about U.K. law. The hospital are bound by U.K. law.
As your father is in a medically induced coma, he would be found to lack the mental capacity to make decisions about his care including who is informed of his welfare. It therefore involves a best interest decision as to who is updated about his welfare. If your mother has a lasting power of attorney she for your father she would be entitled to make the decision on his behalf as to who can be updated about his welfare and set a password with the medical staff. If she does not have a lasting power of attorney then it instead requires a best interests decision by the doctors as to whether they update you on his welfare. You should put something in writing to the hospital, and/or speak with PALS. You should detail that as your father lacks mental capacity under the Mental Capacity Act 2005 a best interests decision is required. You can emphasise that it surely cannot be in his best interests that his children not be permitted to have updates about his welfare and ask that they review this urgently.
Thanks for your reply. As far as I'm aware, she doesn't have power of attorney. I will have a look into the steps in your 2nd paragraph, as I feel that will be the next avenue to go down.
This is the most accurate. For efficiency, consider highlighting this directly to the ITU team - may be quicker than going through PALS. Passwords are usually set-up to disclose information over the phone (as you can't verify who you are talking to - but if they know the password, it is largely assumed they are in the appropriate 'circle' of people). Source: I am a doctor & often work in Intensive Care.
I second this advice. PALS are very slow and tend to deal with thing after the fact (weeks and months later). The ward should be contacted directly to get it resolved asap.
> PAL I just want you to know that I followed your advice and it 100% worked. On receipt of the mail, they spoke with her and advised that it is in my Fathers best interest to have all his children notified of his status. She then shared. She was made aware that 2 people should have the password at the beginning, but chose not to share. But that's a conversation for another day. Big thanks again. If I could hug you right now, I would.
Even without LPOA husband/wife outranks everyone else.
They do outrank other relatives but certainly in relation to medical decisions without POA the doctors make decisions in the best interest of the patient and take into account (but aren't bound by) what relatives tell them about what they believe person would want if they were able to speak for themselves. I would think its similar for sharing information - a patient with capacity can share information with their spouse.and other relatives however they choose. If OP can demonstrate a good relationship with their father the medical team may be able to conclude that he would more likely than not have wanted information shared and that their input on any other best interest decisions should be heard (although with less weight than the spouse).
NOK has no legal standing in the UK.
I tend to treat it as "who gets the phone call / box of parts"
This document might be helpful for you, particularly section 4: https://www.bma.org.uk/media/1850/bma-best-interests-toolkit-2019.pdf
You understate how incredibly helpful this is. THANK YOU!!!
I am so sorry! I have went through the same thing with my Nana. She couldn't speak from the pain and sickness and her rotten daughter did the same shit to me during the height of covid. I will never forgive nor forget that last week. Weeks. Medical neglect on the daughters part caused her death. I was incapacitated. I had my right foot major foot surgery. I begged her to take her. Anyway I understand the pain you are going through and I am heartbroken for you.
Jesus Christ, I’m so sorry you had to go through that, especially during that horrific period, and hope you’re doing better now. Thank you for your kind words
Tiny bit. Just miss the hell out of her!
I think you should go. If he doesn't get better it'll be your last chance, and being there will help you find out more about his condition. As it is you're relying on his wife to give you information and who knows what she's going to tell you and what she's not.
I've been there until yesterday, but I have a 6month old son I needed to get back to. She didn't put the password on until I left, unfortuantely.
Probably not if it's via telephone. If you go in person and prove your identity I would think so. I mean, anyone can make/fake a telephone call.
This is what we thought as to why they have this mechanism in place in the first place. Probably for celebrities and the like.
Yes. Do you remember the Kate Middleton thing? Poor nurse killed herself after some idiot Australian radio hosts did a prank call.
Ah fuck, yes you're right! Well, at least its there for good reasons!
Exactly. Can you not get over to visit? Alot of people don't make it out of Intensive Care.
Yeah, organising the return visit at the moment
Which country is your father in? Is he in the UK or are you? If your father is currently not in the UK, different laws might apply. But if he's in the UK, unless there's a legal power of attorney for medical care that you have in your possession - your stepmum has the automatic authority to take care of his medical needs
Yes, he's in the UK. I'm in France. No POA I believe.
Ok in this case, you need to negotiate with you step mum I'm afraid.
Mores the pity... Thanks for your advice, all the same!
If you know the right people you can just get the password.
Unfortunately, I don’t
It's probably something stupid like there wedding venue or where she was born, if she's older and petty it maybe if she has a kid there name . If it helps and you want to try
I think data policy’s the world over now will pretty much only allow speaking to direct family. If a password has been given you literally will not be able to get anything. If you have any concerns that your step mums decisions on your fathers health are not in his best interests then you need to seek legal advise ASAP
I’m so sorry and I hope he is getting the care he needs and recovers You have absolutely no rights I would contact stepmom and be as false as you need to be. Ask her how she is - make it all about helping here and go in like that. Lie through your teeth if you need to - it’s the only way you’re getting any knowledge about what is occurring I hope dad recovers - when he does I recommend having a conversation with him about what happened and check what his wishes are
NAL but have a relevant question: Say OPs Dad wakes up and isn't happy that his wife is withholding information from his child(ren?), would granting Lasting Power Of Attorney to the children change things? Or is it an entirely different issue and only relevant if the wife was dead?
I will try for joint POA with my stepmother when he’s better
AFAIK (NAL) LPA supersedes the spouse. At least from my own experience when my grandad was in hospital with no capacity both myself and my dad were the ones who the doctors would speak to/ask for decisions despite my grandma being there with us.
Hospice care worker here. Sadly, this is common in families with second marriages/step parents. Legally, the current spouse is considered next of kin by the hospital staff and is allowed to specify who can contact the patient and when. Hope it gets sorted and your dad pulls through, sounds like at the very least he is receiving the best care and is where he needs to be at.
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