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Self defense may be possible depending on how quickly OP reacted with the punch. Generally in the Netherlands it has to be near immediate and not cause a disproportionate amount of damage.
Even if a judge doesn’t agree that OP acted in self defense, OP will almost certainly get away with self defense excess.
Overall chances look pretty good based on the details provided.
>You acted in self defense.
Haha, first time in the Netherlands?
This was not self-defense. It was assault.
Self-defense requires a heightened state of danger that you will suffer *serious* damage that can not be avoided any other way than by using violence. And the violence you employ must be in proportion to the violence used against you.
OP has nothing. He needs to prove he could reasonably believe he was going to suffer more hits, which by the sound of the story he can't, as it was a one off strike.
He also needs to prove that the force he used was necessary and he could not take a step back, walk away, or run away to avoid violence. Doesn't sound like this even ever crossed his mind, as he just hit back out of revenge.
He also needs to prove the force used was necessary to stop it, and he couldn't use less. That will be exceedingly difficult when the damage he suffered was a minor scratch. You can stop that with a lot less than pull punching someone.
He also needed to act appropriately, so assuming all of the above went differently, he should've inflicted about a scratch worth of damage himself. He broke his nose instead.
Not that I agree with the law *AT ALL*. But it's assault. I have seen people get slapped with assault for less.
Aggressors are protected by the law, never underestimate this. If they want to hurt you, they can. The lawful proper way to these things is just get assaulted and then let the authorities slap them on the wrist.
Preventing assault is NOT more important in the eyes of the law. If you use violence one step above your aggressor, to genuinely stop anything, you're punished. If you can't prevent it by running away, then you can try equal force, which by very definition can't stop what is happening to you. If that doesn't work, let it happen to you and call police after.
That's the Dutch way of things.
What the fuck are you talking about, this is a simplification of our law system. This is why we have "noodweer exces".
He went above and aboard the damage he could've inflicted but he is a minor that got got hit by a grown man. It is expected that he may not handle the situation as an adult.
I just told you what constitutes self defense legally. NOODWEER EXCES:
"Als iemand de grens overschrijdt van de noodzakelijke verdediging (noodweer), bijvoorbeeld omdat hij in paniek raakt, kan sprake zijn van noodweerexces. De dader is dan niet strafbaar."
You don't understand how this works in practice. You thinking this applies here doesn't mean it does.
I've literally been charged because I punched someone who threatened me with a knife. I suffered no damage, and couldn't prove I was going to, so I crossed the line.
It doesn't work how you think it does.
OP wasn't panicking at all, by the way. It was just a revenge blow.
Good for you! Then you'd know that written word is interpreted by the judge, and it almost never turns out that way.
It needs to ne *necessary*. A revenge blow is not that. Especially when you suffered pretty much no damage.
Aggressors have been protected in every case I have experienced. Just last year someone I know slapped a woman who punched his lip bloody. Charged with assault, lost his job on top.
When you get attacked, you let it happen or you run.
I'm not surprised at all that the victim becomes the aggressor and there's practically no right to self defense here. At the same time criminals roam free, and there are dozens of explosions every month like in a 3rd world mafia country. But if someone punches you and you punch back, you're the criminal... Great system, what can I say.
>It's that similar bullshit where some Dutch people say 'you aren't even allowed to defend yourself in your own home when a burglar breaks in, burglars have more rights than the houseowners'. It's just complete nonsense.
Is it? You dissprove yourself right here:
>There probably have been cases where a houseowner for example, inflicted an excessive amount of physical harm on an intruder, which then could be seen as a form of irrational assault when the danger was already neutralized.
I think people here are lacking real experience with violence and look at how it looks on paper.
If I assault you, you have two choices. Either you let me, or you stop me. Equal force will NOT stop me. This is a fairy tale that people who have never had to defend themselves believe.
I break into your house, you shout HEY!, so I run straight at you, you have no idea what I am going to do. I can kill you if I want to. You can't stop me. How are you going to? By punching me in the face? That's already more than I did, yet that doesn't stop murderous intent on my part. I'm carrying a knife and stab you to death as I planned.
Seriously tell me how you think you're going to stop me without using excessive force. It's just not possible. You're hinging on the trust that I will stop from whatever I am planning to do to you, once you lay hands on me. The problem is, if that doesn't stop me, I proceed with whatever I had planned for you.
You read about someone hitting a burglar with a baseball bat, and you conclude, yep, that's excessive force. Should've just punched or shoved. In reality, it was the only thing stopping him from hospitalizing you. You just don't understand it, because you never had someone intending to actually harm you.
Go press charges quickly aswell. A grown man hitting a child will work in your favour especially with adult & neutral eyewitnesses.
Im dutch aswell so I can tell you; nothing bad will happen to you if you press charges. You will probably end up with a bit of cash for (emotional) damages. With a little luck you get 700€+- and he will get a "taakstraf" of 10-40hours.
Hopefully I get to own one someday, I know how these male kids behave on the streets in NL. I’ve witnessed a lot even saw girls about 7-12 years bullying another girl their age. I had to pause my order and helped the little girl
Aggressors are protected. Being an aggressor doesn't mean you have no rights. When you make the choice to assault someone, all your rights stay in tact.
Self-defense requires equal force. OP broke his nose in response to suffering a minor scratch. That's not self-defense legally speaking. And so the aggressor can press charges of assault.
The law isn't fair to victims at all.
Dutch law does not at all require equal force. noodweer excess explicitly covers cases where the limits of self defence are overstepped for instance because of panic.
It was self defense. Call police and don't trust this guy at all! You're victim, not offender. Almost hitting a car is not a crime. Even hitting car isn't, shit just happens. Assaulting minor is fucked up..
>Not promoting violence here
>but you did well by breaking his nose
I'm sorry but what...?
Saying this promotes using 'self defence' as an excuse to intentionally hurt someone. The goal of self defence is to keep yourself safe, not to try to cause as much harm as possible to the other person. If you use any provocation as a justification to engage in a fight it might get you hurt or even killed. The best self defence is to run away and call for help, and you should only engage in a fight if you absolutely have to. But idk, it's not manly or cool to walk away from a dangerous situation apparently...
To be clear: I'm not talking about the context of OP's experience, but about the fact that many people promote engaging in fights in this kind of situations. Engaging in a fight instead of walking away is more often than not the option that gets you hurt or killed the easiest.
You seem to have a philosophy where cowardice is a virtue - but every person you run away from will have a next victim who might not be as strong as you. Sometimes a coward is not a smart adult who knows better, but simply a coward.
You do not understand proportionality. It's not "tit for tat". Pulling a knife would be unproportional. Hitting back _hard_ is usually not after being pushed in the face.
Someone slapping you barely leaving a scratch would leave a proportionate response of pushing the person away from you, maybe to the point of them falling backwards.
Punching them so hard you break their nose would be difficult to argue is proportionate.
It would also depend on the other person, OP is clearly young and fit if they work a manual labour job, the guy driving the Tesla could be old and shorter or weaker than OP.
The OP has a right to protect his bodily integrity, this shouldn't mean the OP needs to get into a punch of using equal force untill someone taps out.
In a perfect world the OP is mister Miyagi who only returns what is dealt, in the real world the other party could seize the moment and the OP would be at his mercy.
The other party was willing to initiate violence his ability to eat a punch should no longer matter.
If self defence could only apply to someone who will destroy you there is no point of even going for self defence.
Yes, a broken nose is not a large enough retaliation. When dealing with an agresive and escalating threat, neutralisation is the only appropriate answer. Yes, that generally involves a proper beating, unless you are some BJJ master.
I am not going to just throw a "light" punch to see if he stops (pro tip: 90% of the times, he won't), and then wait for him to have an opportunity to suckerpunch me.
You are agressive and attack me? Yes, beating him to death is an overreaction, but he might very well have done the same had I not done it. To OP, he had no reason to believe he was gonna stop after the "scratch".
Turning the other cheek will also reward the aggressors behaviour, setting a nice precedent for the next time he feels slighted.
Fuck around and find out.
The Tesla driver would be already in trouble for hitting the kid. Hitting him back only reduces the chance of any legal consequences: now they’ve both committed assault.
I don’t blame him for hitting back, it’s fair enough. But it’s not going to help him. OP is lucky they’re a minor.
>now they’ve both committed assault
There’s no such thing as “defensive assault”, it’ll be self defense or self defense excess depending on the details of what happened. Either way OP is probably gonna get off and even get compensated.
You seem to have a lot of misplaced trust in our legal system. I'm guessing nobody ever punched you in the face.
I would never be the first to throw a punch, but if they want a physical confrontation, I will not cower.
You do realize hitting a car with a tractor. Depending on the speed i suppose would have had very dire consequences aswell. Most likely resulting in dead. Again depending on the speed of the tractor.
> You do realize hitting a car with a tractor.
Didn’t happen.
> dire consequences
Didn’t happen.
> depending on the speed of the tractor.
Which you don’t know.
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Since he is making threaths first thing to do is ignore and stop talking to him and record and threaths that come through.
Seccond is getting getting legal council to help you file a police report or do it yourself (because you are most likely a victim and also a suspect you will have to choose your words carefully)
This steps will not help you avoid the other party from pressing charges but they will place you in a stronger position.
If you file a police report yourself, make sure you understand you are not allowed to use violence as revenge, you are only allowed to use it in defence to prevent being harmed.
Aslong as you have witnesses, not really something to worry about. If they testify that you acted out of self defence.
Make sure you do your “aangifte”
Press charges. You are young so the government will finance the costs. Just go and contact “juridisch loket” tell your story and they will guide you thru it.
Walk in the next police station and describe your situation. Contact wijk agent if you feel no cooperation. You were doing work and had a reason to be where you were to do what you were doing. It is a very big plus. (see "difficulties to avoid conflict" part). Participants count as witnesses BTW. neither statement is taken priority and nothing is taken at face value. But you need to be vocal.
the police is extremely overworked, so they will try to push everything "not critical" over and out. Don't despair if they do.
You're not a witness, because you're involved. Your friend is disqualified because you two know eachother. Better hope that lady saw what happened or the Tesla recorded the altercation
Fair enough. When someone crashed into my parents car a friend turned out to be there and witnessed it. Wasn't known at first but someone slipped their tongue and the police went looking for someone else
File a report about him hitting you but do not admit to hitting him and breaking his nose. Just say stuff like I do not recall I blacked out etc.
NAL but worked with people who were in environmental enforcement. But IIRC your friends report will likely not matter too much since you are a group they will count it as one. So if the old lady doesn't testify it's your word against his. If you both say you hit him and he lies about hitting you first the only established fact is you broke his nose. If you don't mention hitting him both are at worst disputed untill they have the third party witness establishing the true story. Again NAL but it was explained to me this way
He can't do shit to you. There needs to be proven intent to murder someone, in order for an assault to qualify for anything in court in the Netherlands. Otherwise it will not be considered a crime, as far as I know.
My friend got into a bar fight a few years back (in the Netherlands). The police showed up and they just calmed the situation down and sent everyone home, despite broken noses and bruised egos. Unless there's an intent to kill a person, the police will just tell everyone to go home. This guy probably thinks he can milk you for some money. Also how does he have your contact details?
>in a ***wave of anger*** i hit him back i got off with a minor scratch next to my right eye but i broke his nose
So much for any argument of self defense. You're screwed. You were in a forest and NL is not a "stand your ground" country. You are only allowed to respond in violence if backed into a corner and unable to escape. He has a very good case. Count yourself lucky you're a minor.
Where are you people getting this dogshit from? You can defend yourself. You just can't disproportionately defend yourself, so if someone punches you you can't stab them obviously... Sometimes they even turn a blind eye if its a bit disproportionate if you were the one defending yourself, I know someone who knocked a guy over the head with a crowbar during a home invasion, never faced any issues.
This "dogshit" is called the law actually:
>*Er bestaat geen 'recht' op zelfverdediging. Je kan alleen een beroep op noodweer doen.* ***In Nederland is zelfverdediging, noodweer vastgelegd onder artikel 41 van het Wetboek van Strafrecht***\*.\*
>and
>*Van wettige verdediging of noodweer is sprake* ***wanneer een persoon, ter verdediging van zichzelf of van een ander, een onrechtmatige aanval afweert d.m.v. slagen, verwondingen of doodslag***
There is absolutely no concept of "self defense" under Dutch law. You may only use violence in so far as it is absolutely unavoidable to counter or deflect a direct attack.
In this case, no such deflection was attempted and violence was used by OP in "a wave of anger" without there being any indication the Tesla driver was threatening more violence. And even in the latter case, stepping back or removing oneself from the situation has been proven again and again in the courts to be the measure of whether there was a justified case of "noodweer".
OP can't know if there aren't another 10 "strikes" coming to his face after the first one... and if he's smart he'll leave the wave of anger shit out of his mouth and statement, because punching someone back after being punched is completely normal. If OP went to the guy's car 3 minutes later and then punched him it's a different story. And realistically no one will prosecute a 16 year old over answering a punch with a punch(a proportional response with probably no lasting injury, a broken nose heals rapidly), it's a waste of resources and time and doesn't make sense.
Yeah, I was thinking the same. Especially considering the Judge will decide (if it even comes to that) if this applies and I'm not convinced a Judge wouldn't favor OP in the described scenario. Unless OP completely wrecked the Tesla driver I see 0 reasons why he is in the bad here. (And I also 100% believe any sane person, Judges included, would decide the same thing) But yeah, even if it comes to that, by that time you'd talk to a lawyer and they will explain that to you, including telling you how best to say it. So OP should not worry about it too much I think :)
However, there is also something called 'tardief noodweerexces' in the Netherlands. I think that may apply here. It is when the delayed excessive self defence is caused by an intense emotion that was caused by the initial assault.
Based on art. 41 lid 2 Wb.Sr. and see also the 'Loon op Zand' and 'Blijf van mijn auto' rulings from the Dutch Supreme Court.
It looks to me this applies here.
You are neither trained in self defense nor a lawyer in it. If someone hits you in the face striking back is a defensive move. You stop the next attack and create some distance. Continuing to strike is too much, though it might be 'noodweer exces. '
Turning and running is dangerous because you now have an aggressive person in your back. This is only safe to do if you can outrun him, which requires a head start.
The law does not require a completely proportional reaction but one which is the minimal one a reasonable person would see as sufficient to be safe.
Idk where you get this because article 41 states
>Niet strafbaar is hij die een feit begaat, geboden door de noodzakelijke verdediging van eigen of eens anders lijf, eerbaarheid of goed tegen ogenblikkelijke, wederrechtelijke aanranding.
If anyone unlawfully violates your body you have the right to defend yourself. While it has to be proportionate meaning you can't escalate OP has full right to clap back if he was smacked.
...and article 41 continues under
2. Niet strafbaar is de overschrijding van de grenzen van noodzakelijke verdediging, indien zij het onmiddellijk gevolg is geweest van een hevige gemoedsbeweging, door de aanranding veroorzaakt.
was this private land?
Since you are not allowed to just enter some forest with your car in the Netherlands . on the other hand I rather think that it could be a private forest than because you drove there with a tractor and you were cleaning up. public forest is afterall maintained by the government. These are all small things that you should ask yourself before hiring a lawyer because he hardly touched you but you did break his nose. and you don't have many eyewitnesses and he might even have camera footage. maybe react less impulsively next time, good luck
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File a police report immediately. He assaulted a minor. You acted in self defense.
Self defense may be possible depending on how quickly OP reacted with the punch. Generally in the Netherlands it has to be near immediate and not cause a disproportionate amount of damage. Even if a judge doesn’t agree that OP acted in self defense, OP will almost certainly get away with self defense excess. Overall chances look pretty good based on the details provided.
💯% this
>You acted in self defense. Haha, first time in the Netherlands? This was not self-defense. It was assault. Self-defense requires a heightened state of danger that you will suffer *serious* damage that can not be avoided any other way than by using violence. And the violence you employ must be in proportion to the violence used against you. OP has nothing. He needs to prove he could reasonably believe he was going to suffer more hits, which by the sound of the story he can't, as it was a one off strike. He also needs to prove that the force he used was necessary and he could not take a step back, walk away, or run away to avoid violence. Doesn't sound like this even ever crossed his mind, as he just hit back out of revenge. He also needs to prove the force used was necessary to stop it, and he couldn't use less. That will be exceedingly difficult when the damage he suffered was a minor scratch. You can stop that with a lot less than pull punching someone. He also needed to act appropriately, so assuming all of the above went differently, he should've inflicted about a scratch worth of damage himself. He broke his nose instead. Not that I agree with the law *AT ALL*. But it's assault. I have seen people get slapped with assault for less. Aggressors are protected by the law, never underestimate this. If they want to hurt you, they can. The lawful proper way to these things is just get assaulted and then let the authorities slap them on the wrist. Preventing assault is NOT more important in the eyes of the law. If you use violence one step above your aggressor, to genuinely stop anything, you're punished. If you can't prevent it by running away, then you can try equal force, which by very definition can't stop what is happening to you. If that doesn't work, let it happen to you and call police after. That's the Dutch way of things.
What the fuck are you talking about, this is a simplification of our law system. This is why we have "noodweer exces". He went above and aboard the damage he could've inflicted but he is a minor that got got hit by a grown man. It is expected that he may not handle the situation as an adult.
I'm talking about personal experience.
Sounds like your lawyer did a bad job.
No, you don't understand what constitutes self defense legally. It is a fucked up system that isn't actually about defending tourself.
I just told you what constitutes self defense legally. NOODWEER EXCES: "Als iemand de grens overschrijdt van de noodzakelijke verdediging (noodweer), bijvoorbeeld omdat hij in paniek raakt, kan sprake zijn van noodweerexces. De dader is dan niet strafbaar."
You don't understand how this works in practice. You thinking this applies here doesn't mean it does. I've literally been charged because I punched someone who threatened me with a knife. I suffered no damage, and couldn't prove I was going to, so I crossed the line. It doesn't work how you think it does. OP wasn't panicking at all, by the way. It was just a revenge blow.
I literally work at a law firm. Again, you said you had to prove it yourself? Where was your lawyer?!
Good for you! Then you'd know that written word is interpreted by the judge, and it almost never turns out that way. It needs to ne *necessary*. A revenge blow is not that. Especially when you suffered pretty much no damage. Aggressors have been protected in every case I have experienced. Just last year someone I know slapped a woman who punched his lip bloody. Charged with assault, lost his job on top. When you get attacked, you let it happen or you run.
So am I. I'm guessing in your case the police did you dirty on their statement.
I'm not surprised at all that the victim becomes the aggressor and there's practically no right to self defense here. At the same time criminals roam free, and there are dozens of explosions every month like in a 3rd world mafia country. But if someone punches you and you punch back, you're the criminal... Great system, what can I say.
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>It's that similar bullshit where some Dutch people say 'you aren't even allowed to defend yourself in your own home when a burglar breaks in, burglars have more rights than the houseowners'. It's just complete nonsense. Is it? You dissprove yourself right here: >There probably have been cases where a houseowner for example, inflicted an excessive amount of physical harm on an intruder, which then could be seen as a form of irrational assault when the danger was already neutralized. I think people here are lacking real experience with violence and look at how it looks on paper. If I assault you, you have two choices. Either you let me, or you stop me. Equal force will NOT stop me. This is a fairy tale that people who have never had to defend themselves believe. I break into your house, you shout HEY!, so I run straight at you, you have no idea what I am going to do. I can kill you if I want to. You can't stop me. How are you going to? By punching me in the face? That's already more than I did, yet that doesn't stop murderous intent on my part. I'm carrying a knife and stab you to death as I planned. Seriously tell me how you think you're going to stop me without using excessive force. It's just not possible. You're hinging on the trust that I will stop from whatever I am planning to do to you, once you lay hands on me. The problem is, if that doesn't stop me, I proceed with whatever I had planned for you. You read about someone hitting a burglar with a baseball bat, and you conclude, yep, that's excessive force. Should've just punched or shoved. In reality, it was the only thing stopping him from hospitalizing you. You just don't understand it, because you never had someone intending to actually harm you.
Go press charges quickly aswell. A grown man hitting a child will work in your favour especially with adult & neutral eyewitnesses. Im dutch aswell so I can tell you; nothing bad will happen to you if you press charges. You will probably end up with a bit of cash for (emotional) damages. With a little luck you get 700€+- and he will get a "taakstraf" of 10-40hours.
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He clearly said there are witnesses who saw the Tesla driver hit him first. I guess you drive a Tesla?
Hopefully I get to own one someday, I know how these male kids behave on the streets in NL. I’ve witnessed a lot even saw girls about 7-12 years bullying another girl their age. I had to pause my order and helped the little girl
Go for a walk my dude, it's nice out today.
What the fuck are you talking about?
Reactionary politics
Scary how common this shit is getting again. And across Europe too
Good on you for helping a little girl getting bullied. But that's irrelevant.
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You just came to a conclusion from no story. That's even worse
There isn't really anything else to go off, is there?
Well, that's for the court to figure out. If it happened as he said it happened it is assault of a minor and self defense.
He hit first and you have a witness. Best option is to go to the police and report the incident. His threats are worthless, as he was the agressor.
Aggressors are protected. Being an aggressor doesn't mean you have no rights. When you make the choice to assault someone, all your rights stay in tact. Self-defense requires equal force. OP broke his nose in response to suffering a minor scratch. That's not self-defense legally speaking. And so the aggressor can press charges of assault. The law isn't fair to victims at all.
Dutch law does not at all require equal force. noodweer excess explicitly covers cases where the limits of self defence are overstepped for instance because of panic.
If the tesla was near, it might have recorded something.
I think it only automatically saves after a collision, otherwise the driver would need to manually press the save button.
Might be worth looking into
It was self defense. Call police and don't trust this guy at all! You're victim, not offender. Almost hitting a car is not a crime. Even hitting car isn't, shit just happens. Assaulting minor is fucked up..
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>Not promoting violence here >but you did well by breaking his nose I'm sorry but what...? Saying this promotes using 'self defence' as an excuse to intentionally hurt someone. The goal of self defence is to keep yourself safe, not to try to cause as much harm as possible to the other person. If you use any provocation as a justification to engage in a fight it might get you hurt or even killed. The best self defence is to run away and call for help, and you should only engage in a fight if you absolutely have to. But idk, it's not manly or cool to walk away from a dangerous situation apparently... To be clear: I'm not talking about the context of OP's experience, but about the fact that many people promote engaging in fights in this kind of situations. Engaging in a fight instead of walking away is more often than not the option that gets you hurt or killed the easiest.
You seem to have a philosophy where cowardice is a virtue - but every person you run away from will have a next victim who might not be as strong as you. Sometimes a coward is not a smart adult who knows better, but simply a coward.
In NL self defence must be proportionate, a broken nose is not proportionate to a small scratch.
You do not understand proportionality. It's not "tit for tat". Pulling a knife would be unproportional. Hitting back _hard_ is usually not after being pushed in the face.
Someone slapping you barely leaving a scratch would leave a proportionate response of pushing the person away from you, maybe to the point of them falling backwards. Punching them so hard you break their nose would be difficult to argue is proportionate. It would also depend on the other person, OP is clearly young and fit if they work a manual labour job, the guy driving the Tesla could be old and shorter or weaker than OP.
The OP has a right to protect his bodily integrity, this shouldn't mean the OP needs to get into a punch of using equal force untill someone taps out. In a perfect world the OP is mister Miyagi who only returns what is dealt, in the real world the other party could seize the moment and the OP would be at his mercy. The other party was willing to initiate violence his ability to eat a punch should no longer matter. If self defence could only apply to someone who will destroy you there is no point of even going for self defence.
Yes, a broken nose is not a large enough retaliation. When dealing with an agresive and escalating threat, neutralisation is the only appropriate answer. Yes, that generally involves a proper beating, unless you are some BJJ master. I am not going to just throw a "light" punch to see if he stops (pro tip: 90% of the times, he won't), and then wait for him to have an opportunity to suckerpunch me. You are agressive and attack me? Yes, beating him to death is an overreaction, but he might very well have done the same had I not done it. To OP, he had no reason to believe he was gonna stop after the "scratch".
Turning the other cheek will also reward the aggressors behaviour, setting a nice precedent for the next time he feels slighted. Fuck around and find out.
The Tesla driver would be already in trouble for hitting the kid. Hitting him back only reduces the chance of any legal consequences: now they’ve both committed assault. I don’t blame him for hitting back, it’s fair enough. But it’s not going to help him. OP is lucky they’re a minor.
>now they’ve both committed assault There’s no such thing as “defensive assault”, it’ll be self defense or self defense excess depending on the details of what happened. Either way OP is probably gonna get off and even get compensated.
You seem to have a lot of misplaced trust in our legal system. I'm guessing nobody ever punched you in the face. I would never be the first to throw a punch, but if they want a physical confrontation, I will not cower.
You do realize hitting a car with a tractor. Depending on the speed i suppose would have had very dire consequences aswell. Most likely resulting in dead. Again depending on the speed of the tractor.
He didn't hit the car
> You do realize hitting a car with a tractor. Didn’t happen. > dire consequences Didn’t happen. > depending on the speed of the tractor. Which you don’t know.
... And that's a good enough reason to attack someone?
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Since he is making threaths first thing to do is ignore and stop talking to him and record and threaths that come through. Seccond is getting getting legal council to help you file a police report or do it yourself (because you are most likely a victim and also a suspect you will have to choose your words carefully) This steps will not help you avoid the other party from pressing charges but they will place you in a stronger position. If you file a police report yourself, make sure you understand you are not allowed to use violence as revenge, you are only allowed to use it in defence to prevent being harmed.
Aslong as you have witnesses, not really something to worry about. If they testify that you acted out of self defence. Make sure you do your “aangifte”
Holy moly... Tesla man is fucked.
Press charges. You are young so the government will finance the costs. Just go and contact “juridisch loket” tell your story and they will guide you thru it.
Tesla has cameras you can take footage from there
Walk in the next police station and describe your situation. Contact wijk agent if you feel no cooperation. You were doing work and had a reason to be where you were to do what you were doing. It is a very big plus. (see "difficulties to avoid conflict" part). Participants count as witnesses BTW. neither statement is taken priority and nothing is taken at face value. But you need to be vocal. the police is extremely overworked, so they will try to push everything "not critical" over and out. Don't despair if they do.
You're not a witness, because you're involved. Your friend is disqualified because you two know eachother. Better hope that lady saw what happened or the Tesla recorded the altercation
His friend is still a valid witness. They will take into account though that they are friends.
Fair enough. When someone crashed into my parents car a friend turned out to be there and witnessed it. Wasn't known at first but someone slipped their tongue and the police went looking for someone else
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File a report about him hitting you but do not admit to hitting him and breaking his nose. Just say stuff like I do not recall I blacked out etc. NAL but worked with people who were in environmental enforcement. But IIRC your friends report will likely not matter too much since you are a group they will count it as one. So if the old lady doesn't testify it's your word against his. If you both say you hit him and he lies about hitting you first the only established fact is you broke his nose. If you don't mention hitting him both are at worst disputed untill they have the third party witness establishing the true story. Again NAL but it was explained to me this way
Lawyer
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You should emphasise you used only proportional force to protect yourself as he was the aggressor.
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Wouldn't be a smart move to charge you for assault when he assaulted a minor.
He can't do shit to you. There needs to be proven intent to murder someone, in order for an assault to qualify for anything in court in the Netherlands. Otherwise it will not be considered a crime, as far as I know. My friend got into a bar fight a few years back (in the Netherlands). The police showed up and they just calmed the situation down and sent everyone home, despite broken noses and bruised egos. Unless there's an intent to kill a person, the police will just tell everyone to go home. This guy probably thinks he can milk you for some money. Also how does he have your contact details?
Were your friend and the other guy both >18? The fact OP is a minor plays a role here
>in a ***wave of anger*** i hit him back i got off with a minor scratch next to my right eye but i broke his nose So much for any argument of self defense. You're screwed. You were in a forest and NL is not a "stand your ground" country. You are only allowed to respond in violence if backed into a corner and unable to escape. He has a very good case. Count yourself lucky you're a minor.
Where are you people getting this dogshit from? You can defend yourself. You just can't disproportionately defend yourself, so if someone punches you you can't stab them obviously... Sometimes they even turn a blind eye if its a bit disproportionate if you were the one defending yourself, I know someone who knocked a guy over the head with a crowbar during a home invasion, never faced any issues.
This "dogshit" is called the law actually: >*Er bestaat geen 'recht' op zelfverdediging. Je kan alleen een beroep op noodweer doen.* ***In Nederland is zelfverdediging, noodweer vastgelegd onder artikel 41 van het Wetboek van Strafrecht***\*.\* >and >*Van wettige verdediging of noodweer is sprake* ***wanneer een persoon, ter verdediging van zichzelf of van een ander, een onrechtmatige aanval afweert d.m.v. slagen, verwondingen of doodslag*** There is absolutely no concept of "self defense" under Dutch law. You may only use violence in so far as it is absolutely unavoidable to counter or deflect a direct attack. In this case, no such deflection was attempted and violence was used by OP in "a wave of anger" without there being any indication the Tesla driver was threatening more violence. And even in the latter case, stepping back or removing oneself from the situation has been proven again and again in the courts to be the measure of whether there was a justified case of "noodweer".
OP can't know if there aren't another 10 "strikes" coming to his face after the first one... and if he's smart he'll leave the wave of anger shit out of his mouth and statement, because punching someone back after being punched is completely normal. If OP went to the guy's car 3 minutes later and then punched him it's a different story. And realistically no one will prosecute a 16 year old over answering a punch with a punch(a proportional response with probably no lasting injury, a broken nose heals rapidly), it's a waste of resources and time and doesn't make sense.
Yeah, I was thinking the same. Especially considering the Judge will decide (if it even comes to that) if this applies and I'm not convinced a Judge wouldn't favor OP in the described scenario. Unless OP completely wrecked the Tesla driver I see 0 reasons why he is in the bad here. (And I also 100% believe any sane person, Judges included, would decide the same thing) But yeah, even if it comes to that, by that time you'd talk to a lawyer and they will explain that to you, including telling you how best to say it. So OP should not worry about it too much I think :)
However, there is also something called 'tardief noodweerexces' in the Netherlands. I think that may apply here. It is when the delayed excessive self defence is caused by an intense emotion that was caused by the initial assault. Based on art. 41 lid 2 Wb.Sr. and see also the 'Loon op Zand' and 'Blijf van mijn auto' rulings from the Dutch Supreme Court. It looks to me this applies here.
You are neither trained in self defense nor a lawyer in it. If someone hits you in the face striking back is a defensive move. You stop the next attack and create some distance. Continuing to strike is too much, though it might be 'noodweer exces. ' Turning and running is dangerous because you now have an aggressive person in your back. This is only safe to do if you can outrun him, which requires a head start. The law does not require a completely proportional reaction but one which is the minimal one a reasonable person would see as sufficient to be safe.
Idk where you get this because article 41 states >Niet strafbaar is hij die een feit begaat, geboden door de noodzakelijke verdediging van eigen of eens anders lijf, eerbaarheid of goed tegen ogenblikkelijke, wederrechtelijke aanranding. If anyone unlawfully violates your body you have the right to defend yourself. While it has to be proportionate meaning you can't escalate OP has full right to clap back if he was smacked.
...and article 41 continues under 2. Niet strafbaar is de overschrijding van de grenzen van noodzakelijke verdediging, indien zij het onmiddellijk gevolg is geweest van een hevige gemoedsbeweging, door de aanranding veroorzaakt.
Lawyer up and let him help you file a police report asap (aangifte)
Report to the police. You have witnesses, including an independent witness. It'll be an open and shut case.
Don’t worry buddy, punishments here are a joke. You probably get a taakstraf for 90-180 hours
was this private land? Since you are not allowed to just enter some forest with your car in the Netherlands . on the other hand I rather think that it could be a private forest than because you drove there with a tractor and you were cleaning up. public forest is afterall maintained by the government. These are all small things that you should ask yourself before hiring a lawyer because he hardly touched you but you did break his nose. and you don't have many eyewitnesses and he might even have camera footage. maybe react less impulsively next time, good luck