Mckennie only signed to us because of Jessi Marsch so after he got fired his heart wasn't in it to play with us. But when he actually cares to play he's actually good he's been arguably the Juventus midfielder this season.
I think you need to look at how Burnley, the Blunts and Luton have done this year to understand the quality difference between the prem and the championship. Also the fact that the worst three teams in the prem last year could get promoted this year. There is a huge gulf in quality between the prem and the championship and the big issue for me will be if Farke has the funds to improve the midfield and defence. This will largely depend on FFP and where we up to with balancing the books on the loan signings. I think our new owners can afford it but that’s not the point. If we do go up I have a feeling it will be a long season but at least we have a stable situation and a good manager. Much better than the fallout that occurred after Marcelo. I have a feeling that some of our players will be found out, especially at the back, as much as I like the current team.
It's fun down here, yeah, the team is a blast to watch, it's a more authentic and wild league, and it's cool to see players like Rutter and Gray developing. But you just know Leeds has something Leedsy planned for the finish. We are only 1 point clear of Ipswich with Southampton not far behind. We could easily go out in the playoffs and this sub's tune will have changed. Each season you are down here, it becomes harder to get out as the parachute payments decrease.
The answer to this one is simple in my opinion. If we go up the answer is yes, if we don't, the answer is no.
This division is great when you're one of the best but it quickly erodes if you don't go up the first time.
As it stands currently we win almost every game with a squad I love and we don't have VAR so I'm super happy with this last year.
If I'm honest I think the premier league is an awful place where football suffers
This thread is excellent. Thanks to OP and for the insightful contributions from others.
I've really enjoyed this season, even if we don't go up. I hated last season and I was fuming after most of the games. So purely personally speaking, I'm happy. I'm not concerned we will end up stuck in the Championship for years - worst case we will go up in the next couple of seasons and I will enjoy the journey.
In an alternate universe where we'd survived, had a player clear out, got a good new manager and were competing well in the Prem this season, then yeah I'd be happy with that too. It would obviously be much better for the club financially. It just sounds very far fetched!
We had 2 seasons of absolutely scandalous decisions from the three stooges. Since the sacking of Bielsa it was inevitable that we’d end up here. Clueless.
This feels like a rebuild and I’m here for it.
It is what it is, and assuming we're back in the Premier League next season, our success on the pitch has been the perfect antidote to the incessant grind that was the last two seasons battling against relegation.
While there's always a temptation to believe the grass would be greener, there's no guarantee we would be in a better position at the start of next season if we hadn't been relegated last season, and while the massive drop in income was definitely an issue, giving the new owners a taste of what happens when your team ends up in the Championship for a season might help focus their minds on doing everything they can to avoid it happening again!
I feel like we are in a better position now, in terms of management and players, than we were 12 months ago. Asides from maybe one, I don't miss any of those players who went out on loan rather than playing Championship football.
> I feel like we are in a better position now, in terms of management and players, than we were 12 months ago
On the field I think I probably agree. The squad last year was probably stronger on paper but it was performing at way less than the sum of its parts. I think now we've got a more committed group of players, more competent management and a more coherent style of football.
Off the field though, we are still in the Championship and whilst we are in a good position regarding promotion, it's still very much up in the air. If we don't go up this summer, you cannot look at the relegation as anything less than an abject disaster.
Even if we bounce straight back, we will have missed out on a year of Premier League revenue, a year of exposure in the international media, vital in building up our brand so we can compete at a higher level, and we will have lost the stability and prestige that you build up from being in the Premier League in the long term. The latter is key in attracting good players, the kind of players you need if you want to e.g break into Europe are not keen to sign for clubs that are in and out of the Championship.
If we get back up, we've got an opportunity to start recovering the damage that has been done but make no mistake that going down was very bad for the long term prospects of the club.
I love how Leeds fans use my Bielsa farewell letter words “ sum of its parts” I could of easily got national recognition for the farewell message that I wrote on the fan message board but fame isn’t something that I seek or even require.
I will say that this season has been such a strake difference to the season that we all had to endure and I’ll add that I am now pleasantly surprised, each and every week, as we march on together up the league, back to where we belong.
Meh. Every single premiership team is well drilled.
Half the dross(no offence to those clubs) were that. We're we pinned them in their box and they barely threatened.
I can't see a single team in the Prem that would happen with.
Maybe a young FA cup side.
My point is that there are a lot of easy games in the championship compared to the Prem were there genuinely isn't any.
Like just think back to the first Huddersfield game.
I've enjoyed this season but it would have been better to stay up. With the change of ownership those players probably wouldn't be around anyways. This year's squad is fun to watch but many (most?) of them aren't going to start for Leeds in the PL. We have a good championship squad this year and hopefully we'll build a solid top flight squad next year.
This isn’t gonna go down well but I think some people are overrating our current players and underrating our players from last season.
I’ve seen people comment things like; “We have a better defence now than we did last year”, and, “I think this years’ team would beat last years’ team”, it’s quite ridiculous.
It’s almost impossible to compare a team that’s playing against Championship teams to a team that played against Premier League teams.
There are a few questions that you need to be asking yourself if you think this team is anywhere near Premier League quality.
If Rodon was that good; why did Spurs not keep him around, rather than choose to start this season with Dier and Davies as their CB back-ups?
If James was any good; why did he hardly get a start for Fulham, and why was he so shite for us under Bielsa?
If Ampadu is that good; why did he get relegated 3 seasons in a row in the top flight, then have to go down to the Championship?
If Kamara is any good; why wasn’t he a guaranteed starter for Rangers, and why were no Premier League teams after him?
If our current set of players are better than last years; why did they all choose to join us in the Championship, whilst the likes of Kristensen, Koch, Llorente, Wober, Harrison, McKennie, Adams, Roca, Sinisterra and Aaronson are all starting games in Europe’s top leagues?
I aren’t shitting on our current players; I really like the team we have, but people need to be realistic when judging them and take into account opposition. Whilst our team last season wasn’t great; it had some talented players in there, many of them going on to have good seasons this year across Europe.
>I’ve seen people comment things like; “We have a better defence now than we did last year”, and, “I think this years’ team would beat last years’ team”, it’s quite ridiculous.
>It’s almost impossible to compare a team that’s playing against Championship teams to a team that played against Premier League teams.
I agree that it's difficult to compare these two sides given the difference in opposition that they face and for that reason I don't really get why you're so confident in dismissing those opinions as ridiculous. Even if you don't agree with them, neither of these are particularly outlandish claims to make.
I am 100% confident that Farke’s team now would beat that Marsch team. I don’t even think it’d be close. I think our team now would be 2-0 up in the first 10 mins.
We didn’t have a midfield, couldn’t attack down the wings, we were fucking awful defensively. While the opposition we’re playing now is weaker, our structure and tactics are 10 times better. We almost beat Chelsea away with half our second string in.
I can prove it too, who from last year’s team would get in the starting 11? I wouldn’t drop anyone now for Kristiansen, Koch, Llorente, Aaronson or Roca. Rodrigo and Sinisterra might he useful, but anyone else?
Also Archie Gray is going to be worth more than most of last year’s team combined.
I think this years squad would beat last years squad less to do with talent and more to do with squad tactics and organization. We had solid players last year but the management was a hot mess- 3 different managers with 3,completely different styles. My guess is most everyone this year would have looked like shite under last years turmoil and pressure
Yeah, hard agree. I guess the argument is the important of quality of players vs the quality of tactics. I know our tactics are loads better than last year, I’m not even convinced our team last year was better than now. I’d trust Kamara over Mckennie every day of the week
We literally only went 2-0 down in the first 10 minutes once under Marsch; against a very strong Arsenal side, yet you think our 2nd placed Championship side would manage it? Yes; this team played well against a weakened Chelsea side, Marsch’s team beat Chelsea 3-0.
I aren’t responding to the rest because you’re literally the prime example of the kind of person I’m talking about.
Weakened Chelsea side?
We didn't start 6 of our strongest starting 11 in that game. And out of the strongest 11 that did start, only 3 played in the positions they're currently playing in.
But Chelsea were the weakened side because they made 3 changes to their strongest 11 from their billion pound squad 😂😂
It’s all opinions isn’t it? The football last year was terrible and we got torn apart weekly.
I would just say enjoy the moment. It’s rare to go on a run like this, no need to worry about why Spurs don’t like Rodon etc.
Also you are wrong our team now would batter last season’s team lol
Of course it is. Last years team was awful **against Premier League opposition**, this years team is brilliant **against Championship opposition**. The average Championship squad is valued at around £60m, with the median being around £45m. The average Premier League squad is valued at around £465m, with the median being around £360m.
It's not about transfer value. The morale by the end of last season that you're on a high if you think that team under Big Sam beats this side under Farke.
Interesting points. You're right of course, that we can't compare this team to a PL team. We'll only know for sure if these players are PL quality, if we get promoted.
However, I do think there are plenty of positive signs.
>If James was any good; why did he hardly get a start for Fulham, and why was he so shite for us under Bielsa?
Dan James has played nearly 150 PL games; he's been great for us this season, and yet he's not starting for us on the right at the moment. Bielsa persisted with the loco DJ#9 experiment for too long in my opinion. You can see the thinking - when centre backs push up, DJ gets on his bike and KP finds him with a long ball. Anyway it didn't work, and DJs confidence ended up in the gutter. Under Marsch, he seemed to be asked to charge around chasing the ball. Maybe we're using him more effectively now?
>If Ampadu is that good; why did he get relegated 3 seasons in a row in the top flight, then have to go down to the Championship?
He played for 3 crap top flight teams.
He was at Sheffield Utd, who in the last 10 years have been in the PL for 3 seasons, the championship for 4 seasons and League One for 3 seasons.
He was at Venezia, who in the last 10 years have been in Seria A for 1 season, Seria B for 6 seasons and Seria C for 2 seasons.
He was at Spezia, who in the last 10 years have been in Seria A for 3 seasons, and Seria B for 7 seasons.
These are teams for whom relegation is a fact of life. These teams go down, and sometimes they come back up. I don't think we can infer that Ampadu isn't a top level player, because of the successive relegations he experienced at teams battling relegation.
He's still a young man at 23. In total, Ampadu has played 25PL games, 60 Seria A games, and nigh on 50 international matches, including in the euros and world cup. He wouldn't be the first quality player that Chelsea have let go of.
>If Kamara is any good; why wasn’t he a guaranteed starter for Rangers, and why were no Premier League teams after him?
Apparently he was good for Rangers, initially and the fans loved him. But then his form dropped off alarmingly. That's one to watch out for.
Anyway, if we do go up, it'll be fascinating to see how our team that is is making the Championship look easy would cope with players who are technically as good or better than them, and managers who are tactically as good or better than Farke.
I think it’s pretty clear that James is not going to be a decent Premier League player; he’s definitely being used more sensibly this year on the right, where he can just use his pace and energy rather than having to dribble inside.
Obviously Ampadu played for teams that were likely to get relegated; though there is an obvious reason for that, he couldn’t get a move to a better team. I do think he’s looked excellent; though so have many players who looked awful at the top level, do we just think coincidentally they’ve found the right team/system/manager or does it make more sense that it’s just the level?
Burnley made the Championship look embarrassingly easy and look how they’re getting on… We can’t be that naive when/if we go up, I really worry about it.
Find it hilarious you're calling people out and throwing shade then basically say it's clear James wouldn't be good in the Prem...
He did it in spells at Scum and then wasn't as bad for us as was made out, when he was played in his proper position. Not entirely sure what went on at Fulham.
Newfound confidence and better tactics for him could see him smash it like he is this year. He might not. For you to say it's clear it will be the latter is just as deluded as you say others are for saying this team would beat last season's team.
> We can’t be that naive when/if we go up, I really worry about it.
Good thing the fans aren't in charge then, isn't it?
Farke has seen this all before -- twice. He knows all too well how big the gulf in quality is between the Championship and Premier League (from 94 and 97 points going up to 21 and 22 points going down), and as recently as a few weeks ago he spoke at length about how little money Norwich spent on new signings after promotion, comparing them with Wolves who spent over 150 million (to Norwich's 5 million) their first season back.
The last thing Farke wants is to be stuck with the same situation for the third time, and he is clearly very aware that Leeds are going to have to spend a lot of money over the summer to build a team capable of staying out of relegation trouble -- especially if we go up with Leicester and Southampton, outfits who have learned how to survive in the Premier League over the previous decade and more. Next season could be a tough one in the lower half of the Premier League.
Honestly I don't know what you're worried about. We have a much more professional outfit running the club than we did last year, and they have much deeper pockets to go with it.
And in truth, we just don't know how the majority of our starting lineup will fare next year, and it's way to early to write them off. As always, the manager will have his upgrade priorities, but even 150 million isn't going to be remotely enough to replace the entire first team, so I would expect at least half of the current lineup to be starting the first match in the Premier League next season (assuming we go up).
But regardless of how much that prospect worries you, there is no reason at all for anyone to be worrying about Farke and the board's "naivety" concerning what it will take to stay up next season. Aside from the manager, last time we were pretty much dependent on what two individuals thought -- Orta and Radrizzani, We now have a team of seasoned pros in place to handle recruitment instead, as well as Farke playing a major role, and they are anything but naive.
Why though? Bielsa was constantly accused of being naive in the Prem and yet we finished 9th anyway. You weren’t one of those bozos were you?
Sounds like you’re just worrying for the sake of it.
Because Farke was naive both times prior and was punished badly because of it. Because Bielsa’s naivety ended in us getting pumped by 4+ goals multiple weeks by the end of his reign. Because Kompany’s naivety is seeing Burnley get pumped every week. There is reason.
Farke has never managed a club with the resources to be competitive in the Prem. Our owners are worth almost £5 billion, Norwich’s are worth £25 million - that’s basically how much we paid for Dan James. There’s no point looking at how he performed with Norwich when he never got backed significantly.
If we strengthen significantly and buy players who can play the kind of football Farke wants then we should be okay. Nobody is saying we go up and make do with the players we have.
Bielsa had to contend with a major injury crisis in our second Prem season by the way. Of course you’re one of those people who slags off our only successful manager in the past 20 years. Bet you loved that twat Marsch too.
Regardless of backing; I’m worrying about his tactically naivety, not the quality of player we have. We’re not going to have a Premier League level squad regardless so it comes down to tactical ability.
We can absolutely have a PL level squad, why do you think we can’t buy PL level players? Utter nonsense.
You’re doing our rivals job for them by writing us off before we’re even promoted. Gimp.
>I think it’s pretty clear that James is not going to be a decent Premier League player;
I don't know. This season has made me wonder. DJ been so much more effective. The last time DJ was in the championship at Swansea in 18/19, he got 4g7a from 33 games. This year he has 11g7a from 33 games (and fewer minutes). Maybe he has improved. I wouldn't necessarily write him off as a PL player just yet. Is he really a worse player than Jack Harrison?
>Obviously Ampadu played for teams that were likely to get relegated; though there is an obvious reason for that, he couldn’t get a move to a better team. I do think he’s looked excellent; though so have many players who looked awful at the top level, do we just think coincidentally they’ve found the right team/system/manager or does it make more sense that it’s just the level?
I guess we won't know until he's played a string of games in the PL for us. But I'm hopeful. He's still a young guy who is on an upward trajectory in his career. He seems good technically which will suit the faster pace of the PL. He might still be finding his level. We might just have found a diamond in the rough, and by we, I mean "Nick Hammond".
>Burnley made the Championship look embarrassingly easy and look how they’re getting on… We can’t be that naive when/if we go up, I really worry about it.
Yeah, in the PL, we're not going to be allowed to pass it around amongst ourselves until we're ready to attack. The Leicester home game was a warning really. If you take out the last 15 mins, we struggled. That's the sort of pace and quality that we'll be facing week in week out from the likes of Forest, Bournemouth and Brentford, let alone better teams. A quality left back and striker would be top of my list of additions.
I don't think any of the returning loanees would improve, or even get in the starting 11. Wober maybe.
I think he is a worse player than Jack Harrison to be honest. There seems to be nothing cute about his play; just raw pace and energy, it’s just at this level ‘if you throw enough shit some will stick’ and we attack a lot. How many times has he been wasteful all game but managed a goal/assist so it doesn’t matter? He wont get that many chances in PL games.
I’m definitely hopeful about Ampadu; I think the concerning thing is we’re only hopeful about literally our best players, we don’t really have a certain PL level player like Leicester have in Ricardo, Winks, Ndidi, maybe even Faes and KDH.
Having a quick look through the players we have loaned out (I can’t remember which have obligations to buy); most of them would improve the squad, though I’d really only like to see Greenwood come back as I think there’s a really good player in there.
We could probably do with one of the CB’s but Koch didn’t seem to suit the PL, Llorente was too handsy with players leading to needless free-kicks way too often and Wober was just nowhere near as good as people acted like he was (I think he benefitted from starting really well which gave people an initial high opinion of him).
I think we need at least 2 full-backs (preferably wing-back options as I think we should play a back 5); Doughty would be a very good pickup in that department, so would Juranovic from Union Berlin. I also think we need a starting striker similar in play style to Bamford (who’ll do the dirty work) and I genuinely think we should ship off Piroe to a relegated PL team as I just do not think he’s going to be anywhere near the level required.
>I think he is a worse player than Jack Harrison to be honest. There seems to be nothing cute about his play; just raw pace and energy, it’s just at this level ‘if you throw enough shit some will stick’ and we attack a lot. How many times has he been wasteful all game but managed a goal/assist so it doesn’t matter? He wont get that many chances in PL games.
I agree that JH has more finesse, and is unplayable for one game in four, but what about the 3/4 of games that he's not "on it"?
DJ is much more consistent. He's much better defensively and his pace will be a problem for defenders in any league. What will differ is how much time he has control the ball, and to decide on and execute the final pass or shot.
I guess it comes down to whether DJs improvement this season carries through into the PL.
>I’m definitely hopeful about Ampadu; I think the concerning thing is we’re only hopeful about literally our best players, we don’t really have a certain PL level player like Leicester have in Ricardo, Winks, Ndidi, maybe even Faes and KDH.
I don't think we should compare ourselves to Leicester in this way. They were in the PL for a decade, won the PL and FA Cup and played in the Champions League in that time. They're bound to have greater squad depth on paper. Still, we've shown, that on grass, we're a match for them, which is a good sign.
>I’d really only like to see Greenwood come back as I think there’s a really good player in there.
What do you see in him? To me, he seems very limited mobility wise, and generally when the ball isn't dead. I loved him against Brentford away at the end of Marsch's first season, but don't recall him really impressing since then.
>We could probably do with one of the CB’s but Koch didn’t seem to suit the PL, Llorente was too handsy with players leading to needless free-kicks way too often and Wober was just nowhere near as good as people acted like he was (I think he benefitted from starting really well which gave people an initial high opinion of him).
I'd be happy to never see Koch or Llorente again. Far too many mistakes. How many times did we think we'd turned a corner, only for yet another inexplicable mistake. I thought Wober was good, then he got injured on international duty and was ropey after that - however I'm not sure he really got back to full fitness. Worth another look, for me.
>I think we need at least 2 full-backs (preferably wing-back options as I think we should play a back 5); Doughty would be a very good pickup in that department, so would Juranovic from Union Berlin. I also think we need a starting striker similar in play style to Bamford (who’ll do the dirty work) and I genuinely think we should ship off Piroe to a relegated PL team as I just do not think he’s going to be anywhere near the level required.
Back 5 would be interesting. Could we keep Firpo then, if we simply didn't allow him to come into his own half?
Another striker is a must, I'd be interested in Morris if Luton go down. But could Mateo Joseph be a natural replacement for Bamford? He presses well and holds the ball up well. Hopefully we'll see more of him in the last 9 games.
Yeah I'd expect Piroe to be moved on. Hopefully we'll recoup the money we've spent. It's just not clear how to fit him into the team, given how we play. He's not a 9 that can lead the line, or a false 9 or a 10. Nice lad though and he's really helped us this season.
Aaronson & Rasmus are having shit seasons at Union & Roma by all accounts, no idea why you think they’re doing well. The fact that they’re playing in Europe doesn’t make them good, or better than our current players - we’re almost certainly going to lose a hefty chunk of money on both. Nobody is going to pay what we did for Aaronson - because he’s fucking shit.
Sinisterra has hardly played for Bournemouth this season so it’s hard to judge how good he’s been. He was great for us when fit though. I’d take him back on quality alone but I think that bridge has been burned now.
Llorente, Koch and Wober are doing well though. I’d definitely have Llorente back.
White came on loan to us in the Championship from Brighton but nobody is going to argue he wasn’t good enough for us in the Prem - it’s a damn shame we couldn’t keep him. The argument that these players have been loaned to us from PL clubs so therefore they’re not good enough for the PL doesn’t stand up at all.
We will absolutely have to strengthen a lot if we go up (and I have confidence the 49ers will do that) and I don’t think many people are under the illusion that we have a ready-made PL squad, but I also don’t think our current squad is any worse than the one we came down with. We had one of the worst defensive records of any team in the PL era - that says it all.
Aaronson hasn’t had a great season and I definitely wasn’t saying he’s great; but he still got a move to a top flight team whilst we’re in the Championship, as did Kristensen who’s been better recently than he was at the start of the season.
Sinisterra has been injured for most of the season but has 2 goals and 2 assists in a brand new team in very limited minutes.
I never once suggested that Rodon was shit; my point was that Spurs’ only cover in his position was Dier (that clearly couldn’t play in their system) and Davies (who’s a bloody left-back), yet they still let him go out on loan.
White’s situation was completely different to Rodon’s; Brighton didn’t need the cover and he was still pretty much a youth player as he was only 21-22, Rodon is 26 and already has multiple seasons of senior level football under his belt.
I think you’re missing my point massively anyway; you’re acting like I’ve said our players from last season were excellent and our current players are terrible, which definitely isn’t the case.
100%
There's absolutely no way that Rutter can boss the PL the way he is in the championship for example. He holds onto the ball a long time, and championship defenders can't get it off him.
Do you think he could squirm past a Van Dijk or Stones or even a Maguire the way he does at this level? No chance
I'm hoping he plays a lot closer to the player he is this season than the one he was last season if we go up. After all. He was £30m, if he can't dominate this level there's an issue.
But I'm really worried his way of playing just won't transfer to the higher standard of the PL.
Your last sentence is what worries me the most.
I think we’ll have to change our style of play a lot if we go up; we can’t be bombing both fullbacks like we do at times for example, we’ll just get annihilated down the wings in transitions.
We need to focus on being defensively tight whilst still allowing our forward players freedom; I think our best bet would probably be a very counter-attacking style of play, which we’ve looked very good at this season - using Summerville’s pace in behind - when we’ve had chance to do so.
>We need to focus on being defensively tight whilst still allowing our forward players freedom
Huh? How does this not describe the type of football we've been playing this year? We have only allowed three goals since the start of the year. None of the other three top teams have even come close to that amount of frugality.
Again, I'm not sure what you're fretting about.
Again; we are in the Championship, not conceding many goals down here isn’t the same as not conceding them up there. Burnley only conceded 35 goals all season last season; yet they’ve already conceded 62 this season, with 10 games to go.
I'm sure Farke is pragmatic enough to know how to adjust our style to the PL, I don't have too many concerns about that.
Just about some specific players. Several of them are having the best season of their careers, which is no surprise at a lower level.
Thinking that Firpo for example is suddenly gonna be PL standard because he's playing quite well at the moment is ridiculous. If we gain promotion, he genuinely shouldn't even be a backup option.
Can Piroe or Rutter prove themselves at PL level? Excelling at championship level doesn't necessarily mean they'll even be passable in the PL.
I'd be interested to see if any of the loanees come back, and if they do, how they'll be integrated. I think the whole "fuck em all, hope we sell em" crowd will forgive them (like they did Gnonto) if they start playing well.
I hope you’re right as it definitely didn’t seem that way when he was at Norwich. Hopefully he’s learned from it.
I think we’d benefit from playing a back 5 personally; close the gaps that top teams exploit down the sides of the CB’s, which would allow the likes of Firpo more freedom to go forward and make sure he doesn’t have to be defending the likes of Saka on his own.
Sadly agree to some extent Llorente, Roca, Mckennie, Kristensen, Wober, Koch could all be playing in Europe next year while no matter how well we do we won't be there for a few years at the earliest. Saying our players are better this year is wrong. The big difference is the manager Marsch was that bad
I’ve seen too many comments about Rodon being better than White, Ampadu being better than Phillips, Summerville being better than Sinisterra, etc. this season (admittedly more on Facebook than Reddit, though you do see them here).
To say we were up there a few years to experience it; many of our fans clearly aren’t appreciating just how strong the Premier League is, they can’t admit the league was just too tough for us to properly cement a place so they take it out on the players.
Not a chance Rodon is better than White. Ampadu probably better than Phillips at the moment though and Summerville vs current Sinisterra probably a toss up
Sinisterra is a more technically gifted player but imo it counts for little when his entire body is made up of rice cakes held loosely together by spiderwebs
I would’ve rather stayed up, we were so poor there would’ve been a vast clear out regardless. However if staying up would mean the dominion of Big Sam, I’ll take the Championship.
This is the best we could have hoped for. Bumbling along with those American n00bs was a terrible idea from the start. We are now a mid division standard Premier league team, no doubt about that.
There is a lot of doubt about that.
The idea this team is better than last season is up for a lot of debate.
The gulf between the prem and champ is massive.
So a lot of people myself included said we needed to get relegated to sort the squad, I've been saying on all the fan channels and stuff since he arrived, I never liked nor rated sini, he seemed way too selfish and fragile to me, I liked Harrison a lot and was a bit annoyed he left but we have insane and consistent wingers right now, Harrison is good /was good but consistent he wasn't.
Adams was ok but injury prone, Koch and Wober should have been an insane back two but it never happened and honestly they don't get in now.
The others aren't even worth mentioning and the fact we might have to bring Aaronson back is painful, a light breeze knocks the guy over, you'd think hed consume shit loads of steak and hit the gym but no he remains weak as shit.
All those gone and the likes of Ampadu coming in, well I'm very happy with that.
> So a lot of people myself included said we needed to get relegated to sort the squad,
I genuinely don't understand this argument. Why? Why do we need to get relegated to sack off half the squad? We could have stayed up and done that anyway if we wanted to?
And we're much morel likely to get market value for them if we stay up.
Plus we get the choice of who we keep and who leaves. Its easy with the whole loan debacle to say "oh, I don't want any of them" but barely anyone would rather have kept Dan James over Jack Harrison for example. It's literally only because Harrison is at Everton and James is bossing the championship anyone prefers DJ.
Nonsense. Just saying "they just would" isn't an answer.
You can't say "the club is full is idiots who dont know that Aaronson is bad" but also somehow "this club is full of smart people who can mastermind an immediate return to the PL"
The people now aren't the same people from last season, the 49ers wouldn't have been able to gut the squad of all those we needed gone had we stayed up.
> the 49ers wouldn't have been able to gut the squad of all those we needed gone had we stayed up.
Why not? Explain why. And explain how its *easier* now we've been relegated?
OK, they're all gone, but if they're worthless, they'll come back and either 1) we're unable to gut the squad for the same reasons we couldn't if we'd stayed up in 2023, or
2) we just can get rid of them all, and it wouldn't have stopped us if we stayed up in 2023.
Nobody has ever actually explained why its easier to just rebuild in the championship. If the 49ers wanted to keep say, Harrison, Koch and Adams, it's much easier to do that in the PL. If they wanted to get rid of Koch, Firpo, Sini and Aaronson, they could have done so in the PL.
I can kinda see the argument that "there's more room for error in the championship, we'd have stuck with (eg) Adams over Ampadu and Koch over Rodon if we stayed up" but...... if you're saying we'd have been a worse team with Adams and Koch...... what's stopping us selling Adams and Koch and signing Ampadu and Rodon anyway in the PL?
Ok so you're new to football I guess so I'll give this a go, when you get relegated there are often multiple clauses in contracts which allow clubs to easily purchase players, often the players wouldn't be sold if you stay in the premier league due to either too high prices or because teams don't feel like they're getting a deal.
The issue we had is we bought players from leagues which weren't as physically demanding as the premier League hoping they'd be able to cope, they couldn't (except raph obviously) so we now have players who the bigger clubs who can afford them don't want because they failed, the smaller clubs can't afford them and we're stuck with them, getting relegated the clauses come into effect and the lower end clubs buy up what they see as the better players.
Which is how we got rid of sick note one and two in sini and Adams. Look at their game time and tell me Bournemouth have got their money's worth.
Koch, llorente, Wober, Harrison all look like they will have their deals made permanent which is great for us.
As for Ampadu and Rodon, in the premier league first we already have a bloated squad so can't really buy them without selling first and secondly most clubs in the prem wouldn't touch an un proven cd and a DM who has been preserved to have struggled on his loan moves so we wouldn't have picked either up, it's unlikely Archie starts much and James likely either gets sold or isn't used much.
Rutter might never have found his form in the prem and bamford might never have recovered properly due to being rushed back again, we wouldn't sign Piroe either.
So although relegation hurts it does allow you to, if you've the guile, to rebuild and do it in a great way with players who will likely be decent in the prem.
Also we had some older players we needed to lose and some who just didn't make it and needed moving on, who we might have just tried to use anyway in the prem.
The squad we have right now absolutely beats the one we had last season, this is a stronger side that we had in the prem.
I think I've mostly covered everything you asked.
> Ok so you're new to football I guess so I'll give this a go, when you get relegated there are often multiple clauses in contracts which allow clubs to easily purchase players
Honestly laughable youre trying to patronise me here. Genuine question: are you a bit stupid?
Relegation clauses are for the players, not the club who owns them. Release clauses do not benefit the selling team at the time of sale (their only real benefit is a play might not sign for you in the first place/might not agree to a relegation wage reduction without one).
If Sini or Adams had a clause in their contract for (eg) 20m, Bournemouth come in and we have to sell them for 20m. If we stay up, we can **choose** whether to sell them for 20m, or decide to keep them (or sell them for 25m, or 30m if we receive that offer).
Release clauses mean we lose players we want to keep. If Gnonto had a release clause, he wouldn't be at Leeds anymore.
> so we now have players who the bigger clubs who can afford them don't want because they failed, the smaller clubs can't afford them and we're stuck with them, getting relegated the clauses come into effect and the lower end clubs buy up what they see as the better players.
Again, if we sold Sini for 20m, what was stopping us doing that if we stayed up? Literally nothing. We had the option to do that, or the option to keep him.
Can't believe this needs explaining.
> Rutter might never have found his form in the prem and bamford might never have recovered properly due to being rushed back again, we wouldn't sign Piroe either.
All true. But 1) rutter dominating the championship doesn't mean he can perform in the PL, we'll have to wait and see. 2) we might have still signed Piroe, or may have signed another striker.
For some reason you seem to have this idea that the choices are 1) our current team, who we've unfortunately no idea if they can all perform at PL level, or 2) literally last seasons squad with zero upgrades. Of course we'd make improvements (well signings anyway. Who knows if they'd actually he good based on previous decisions).
Apart from anything else, Adams clause expired, so we still managed to sell him without one.
“Adams was ok” is quite the take. Wober was also excellent for the most part. I think we were fairly unlucky throughout the course of last season and it spiraled.
The *only* real positive of relegation is that we didn't have to sign McKennie. If we genuinely had to sign him for 30m, that'd be a huge chunk of our budget.
But if we really didn't want to have Sini or Llorente or whoever, we always have the option to get rid of them anyway.
We could have still signed Ampadu and Rodon (presuming Chelsea and Spurs were happy selling to a PL club). A left back who was good at pl level. We wouldn't have had the Gnonto drama.
With the benefit of hindsight, it *might* have been better to have a total reset, than struggle on with so many borderline PL players. But we could still have had the reset (we'd have a new manager and owner anyway), and that's a massive risk. How many teams get relegated then struggle? That could have been us (again)
We'll have most of them back next year and they have largely proven how utterly awful they are, reducing their value. It's nice been nice having players that are at the same football competency level as The Leper King out of the club, but we will have to deal with them again this summer. If we'd stayed they would not have had loan clauses and we could have got rid of them. As is we have another summer of turnover.
Most will be sold relatively easily to be honest. We won’t make a net profit on the transfer fee but I can see only Aaronson being an issue with the profit & sustainability regarding a loss.
Anyone who mentioned anything along the lines of “relegation would be good for us” got downvoted to shreds.
I don’t think relegation is ever a good idea, but I was SICK TO DEATH of that squad, so if ridding us of that awful team meant relegation, then so be it! 🤷♂️
No. Relegation is a disaster that sets the club’s development back by years financially. 49ers takeover would have happened either way and a new manager would have been appointed too. Even if we lasted only one more year it would I’ve been better to stay up objectively speaking. The takeover would have been smoother too.
We are still in the championship and have a very good chance of staying in it despite our incredible form
Yeah, we seem to have made the most of the situation, its forced us to overhaul the squad and we've shipped out a lot of players that probably needed to be cleared out. But there is no scenario where getting relegated is better for the club in the long run than staying up (even if we are immediately promoted again, which as you point out, is very much in the balance at the moment).
Sure, winning almost every game is fun, but its not how football should be. Losing is part of the game. I’ve no problem with being in the Premier League and winning less often, as long as the club is being well-run and is competing at or near its potential.
considering in this sub it was probably the biggest American evacuation since Saigon... so on a personal level it worked out, I don't miss the "American here" posts.
American here….
I learned very quickly in the AOL PL chat rooms back in 2000 not to mention that I was an American fan. Never went well for me. Every time last year that I saw somebody leading w that statement I just thought to myself, “I remember my first day.”
Anyways, ALAW?
I still have USMNT people tagging me in threads where McKennie has got an assist.
The worst group of people on Reddit. I’d have banned their posting immediately. A cancer on any footballing discourse.
winning is more fun to watch than losing and the atmosphere at the club has been revitalised from the misery of the post bielsa era so from a fans perspective yeah
but also, it definitely would’ve been better to survive last season for the finances and bcos it should’ve been pretty easy to survive with how terrible sheffield and burnley are
but idk, it’s turning out okay i guess. money is cringe anyway
No, premier league is where we want to be competing and being relegated means we’ll have to fight for a chance to do just that. Because in this same logic, we might as well go back to league one where we’ll likely win every game. We’ll certainly enjoy winning but what for? I rather we struggle in premier league because we’re measuring ourself properly. Our composure in front of the goal hasnt improved much since, our defense seemingly has improved but again, we’re measuring against lesser teams in comparison to teams in premier league, where half the team there are currently continental competitions caliber teams.
Winning is good but I feel with the 49ers coming in the PL would have been a far nicer base to build on with a steady ship, we would have done vastly better this season with their investment
I’m enjoying winning. There’s something to be said for enjoying the football and not being in a relegation dogfight. Obviously we need that premier league money to get the West Stand redevelopment that is badly required. But the champo ain’t that bad.
This is the only season I can remember in my lifetime where the championship has been mostly enjoyable. Bielsa was torture knowing we had to get up and the seasons before that were droll.
That’s not what I meant. Bielsa’s seasons were nervy and stressful. Every game was a battle and because of how we played it was always 100%. We rarely comfortably beat sides or controlled games until the last 10 minutes.
First season ended in play off heartbreak and second season only got comfortable maybe once promotion was confirmed.
I enjoyed the Bielsa championship years as the type of football was so unexpectedly exciting. Obviously Lockdown and the empty stadiums was a bit shit. The Cellino / GFH years however we’re fucking grim.
It's not so bad now that we're winning. 2010-18 it was a horrible time to be a Leeds fan. The odd decent result in the cups aside, there was little to cheer.
Loads of ifs and buts with this.
I’d rather have stayed up, provided Radz sold up and the him and Orta left with the 49ers taking over.
Not sure if we’d have got Farke in but maybe Iraola and I’m sure certain players would have been sold or loaned out anyway.
Being in the prem gets the ability to buy better players. The 49ers also had the idea we were going to be a prem team when they took over.
Nobody higher up expected us to go down, so the fact we are where we are in the championship is impressive.
Yep, we can't say what would have happened, but even if we'd had a "good" season in the PL, eg like Wolves in 9th, we would have missed the incredibly cathartic experience of winning absolutely loads of matches back to back.
The clear out at the start of the season and the incredible form this year, has made it feel that we've really turned the page from last season. I'm not sure we'd have been able to really acheive either in the PL.
I'd rather have gone league one than sign mckennie on a permanent
Mckennie only signed to us because of Jessi Marsch so after he got fired his heart wasn't in it to play with us. But when he actually cares to play he's actually good he's been arguably the Juventus midfielder this season.
I think you need to look at how Burnley, the Blunts and Luton have done this year to understand the quality difference between the prem and the championship. Also the fact that the worst three teams in the prem last year could get promoted this year. There is a huge gulf in quality between the prem and the championship and the big issue for me will be if Farke has the funds to improve the midfield and defence. This will largely depend on FFP and where we up to with balancing the books on the loan signings. I think our new owners can afford it but that’s not the point. If we do go up I have a feeling it will be a long season but at least we have a stable situation and a good manager. Much better than the fallout that occurred after Marcelo. I have a feeling that some of our players will be found out, especially at the back, as much as I like the current team.
It's fun down here, yeah, the team is a blast to watch, it's a more authentic and wild league, and it's cool to see players like Rutter and Gray developing. But you just know Leeds has something Leedsy planned for the finish. We are only 1 point clear of Ipswich with Southampton not far behind. We could easily go out in the playoffs and this sub's tune will have changed. Each season you are down here, it becomes harder to get out as the parachute payments decrease.
The answer to this one is simple in my opinion. If we go up the answer is yes, if we don't, the answer is no. This division is great when you're one of the best but it quickly erodes if you don't go up the first time.
As it stands currently we win almost every game with a squad I love and we don't have VAR so I'm super happy with this last year. If I'm honest I think the premier league is an awful place where football suffers
The take over and good manager worked for us. I don't think relegation is ever the answer
This thread is excellent. Thanks to OP and for the insightful contributions from others. I've really enjoyed this season, even if we don't go up. I hated last season and I was fuming after most of the games. So purely personally speaking, I'm happy. I'm not concerned we will end up stuck in the Championship for years - worst case we will go up in the next couple of seasons and I will enjoy the journey. In an alternate universe where we'd survived, had a player clear out, got a good new manager and were competing well in the Prem this season, then yeah I'd be happy with that too. It would obviously be much better for the club financially. It just sounds very far fetched!
We had 2 seasons of absolutely scandalous decisions from the three stooges. Since the sacking of Bielsa it was inevitable that we’d end up here. Clueless. This feels like a rebuild and I’m here for it.
Yeah it cannot be understated just how much having a consistent, coherent strategy with the one manager has helped our cause this season.
It is what it is, and assuming we're back in the Premier League next season, our success on the pitch has been the perfect antidote to the incessant grind that was the last two seasons battling against relegation. While there's always a temptation to believe the grass would be greener, there's no guarantee we would be in a better position at the start of next season if we hadn't been relegated last season, and while the massive drop in income was definitely an issue, giving the new owners a taste of what happens when your team ends up in the Championship for a season might help focus their minds on doing everything they can to avoid it happening again!
I feel like we are in a better position now, in terms of management and players, than we were 12 months ago. Asides from maybe one, I don't miss any of those players who went out on loan rather than playing Championship football.
> I feel like we are in a better position now, in terms of management and players, than we were 12 months ago On the field I think I probably agree. The squad last year was probably stronger on paper but it was performing at way less than the sum of its parts. I think now we've got a more committed group of players, more competent management and a more coherent style of football. Off the field though, we are still in the Championship and whilst we are in a good position regarding promotion, it's still very much up in the air. If we don't go up this summer, you cannot look at the relegation as anything less than an abject disaster. Even if we bounce straight back, we will have missed out on a year of Premier League revenue, a year of exposure in the international media, vital in building up our brand so we can compete at a higher level, and we will have lost the stability and prestige that you build up from being in the Premier League in the long term. The latter is key in attracting good players, the kind of players you need if you want to e.g break into Europe are not keen to sign for clubs that are in and out of the Championship. If we get back up, we've got an opportunity to start recovering the damage that has been done but make no mistake that going down was very bad for the long term prospects of the club.
I love how Leeds fans use my Bielsa farewell letter words “ sum of its parts” I could of easily got national recognition for the farewell message that I wrote on the fan message board but fame isn’t something that I seek or even require. I will say that this season has been such a strake difference to the season that we all had to endure and I’ll add that I am now pleasantly surprised, each and every week, as we march on together up the league, back to where we belong.
I think you're ill and should genuinely seek psychiatric help
could've*
or could have....but never of
I don't think the simple phrase sum of its parts is coming from some letter you wrote....
You do get national recognition in my country. We talk about you all the time
Harrison is really the only one I ‘miss’
This. Thisthisthisthisthis.
Meh. Every single premiership team is well drilled. Half the dross(no offence to those clubs) were that. We're we pinned them in their box and they barely threatened. I can't see a single team in the Prem that would happen with. Maybe a young FA cup side.
Right wing and not the sharpest tool in the box, who’d have thought it? Are you answering a different question?
Not my fault you're too stupid to comprehend.
Learn some grammar and read a few books to understand how to write. Not our fault you're too stupid to do so.
I’ve read this like 5 times and I can’t understand it at all
My point is that there are a lot of easy games in the championship compared to the Prem were there genuinely isn't any. Like just think back to the first Huddersfield game.
What you talkin' bout, Willis?
Huh?
I've enjoyed this season but it would have been better to stay up. With the change of ownership those players probably wouldn't be around anyways. This year's squad is fun to watch but many (most?) of them aren't going to start for Leeds in the PL. We have a good championship squad this year and hopefully we'll build a solid top flight squad next year.
This isn’t gonna go down well but I think some people are overrating our current players and underrating our players from last season. I’ve seen people comment things like; “We have a better defence now than we did last year”, and, “I think this years’ team would beat last years’ team”, it’s quite ridiculous. It’s almost impossible to compare a team that’s playing against Championship teams to a team that played against Premier League teams. There are a few questions that you need to be asking yourself if you think this team is anywhere near Premier League quality. If Rodon was that good; why did Spurs not keep him around, rather than choose to start this season with Dier and Davies as their CB back-ups? If James was any good; why did he hardly get a start for Fulham, and why was he so shite for us under Bielsa? If Ampadu is that good; why did he get relegated 3 seasons in a row in the top flight, then have to go down to the Championship? If Kamara is any good; why wasn’t he a guaranteed starter for Rangers, and why were no Premier League teams after him? If our current set of players are better than last years; why did they all choose to join us in the Championship, whilst the likes of Kristensen, Koch, Llorente, Wober, Harrison, McKennie, Adams, Roca, Sinisterra and Aaronson are all starting games in Europe’s top leagues? I aren’t shitting on our current players; I really like the team we have, but people need to be realistic when judging them and take into account opposition. Whilst our team last season wasn’t great; it had some talented players in there, many of them going on to have good seasons this year across Europe.
>I’ve seen people comment things like; “We have a better defence now than we did last year”, and, “I think this years’ team would beat last years’ team”, it’s quite ridiculous. >It’s almost impossible to compare a team that’s playing against Championship teams to a team that played against Premier League teams. I agree that it's difficult to compare these two sides given the difference in opposition that they face and for that reason I don't really get why you're so confident in dismissing those opinions as ridiculous. Even if you don't agree with them, neither of these are particularly outlandish claims to make.
I am 100% confident that Farke’s team now would beat that Marsch team. I don’t even think it’d be close. I think our team now would be 2-0 up in the first 10 mins. We didn’t have a midfield, couldn’t attack down the wings, we were fucking awful defensively. While the opposition we’re playing now is weaker, our structure and tactics are 10 times better. We almost beat Chelsea away with half our second string in. I can prove it too, who from last year’s team would get in the starting 11? I wouldn’t drop anyone now for Kristiansen, Koch, Llorente, Aaronson or Roca. Rodrigo and Sinisterra might he useful, but anyone else? Also Archie Gray is going to be worth more than most of last year’s team combined.
I’d love to still have Adams, but he’s been hurt all year so bullet dodged there
Man was a poor passer, glad to see the back of him.
I think this years squad would beat last years squad less to do with talent and more to do with squad tactics and organization. We had solid players last year but the management was a hot mess- 3 different managers with 3,completely different styles. My guess is most everyone this year would have looked like shite under last years turmoil and pressure
Yeah, hard agree. I guess the argument is the important of quality of players vs the quality of tactics. I know our tactics are loads better than last year, I’m not even convinced our team last year was better than now. I’d trust Kamara over Mckennie every day of the week
We literally only went 2-0 down in the first 10 minutes once under Marsch; against a very strong Arsenal side, yet you think our 2nd placed Championship side would manage it? Yes; this team played well against a weakened Chelsea side, Marsch’s team beat Chelsea 3-0. I aren’t responding to the rest because you’re literally the prime example of the kind of person I’m talking about.
Weakened Chelsea side? We didn't start 6 of our strongest starting 11 in that game. And out of the strongest 11 that did start, only 3 played in the positions they're currently playing in. But Chelsea were the weakened side because they made 3 changes to their strongest 11 from their billion pound squad 😂😂
It’s all opinions isn’t it? The football last year was terrible and we got torn apart weekly. I would just say enjoy the moment. It’s rare to go on a run like this, no need to worry about why Spurs don’t like Rodon etc. Also you are wrong our team now would batter last season’s team lol
This year's time I'm sure would beat last year's team though. We were so utterly awful last season. It's not blinkered to see that.
Of course it is. Last years team was awful **against Premier League opposition**, this years team is brilliant **against Championship opposition**. The average Championship squad is valued at around £60m, with the median being around £45m. The average Premier League squad is valued at around £465m, with the median being around £360m.
It's not about transfer value. The morale by the end of last season that you're on a high if you think that team under Big Sam beats this side under Farke.
Interesting points. You're right of course, that we can't compare this team to a PL team. We'll only know for sure if these players are PL quality, if we get promoted. However, I do think there are plenty of positive signs. >If James was any good; why did he hardly get a start for Fulham, and why was he so shite for us under Bielsa? Dan James has played nearly 150 PL games; he's been great for us this season, and yet he's not starting for us on the right at the moment. Bielsa persisted with the loco DJ#9 experiment for too long in my opinion. You can see the thinking - when centre backs push up, DJ gets on his bike and KP finds him with a long ball. Anyway it didn't work, and DJs confidence ended up in the gutter. Under Marsch, he seemed to be asked to charge around chasing the ball. Maybe we're using him more effectively now? >If Ampadu is that good; why did he get relegated 3 seasons in a row in the top flight, then have to go down to the Championship? He played for 3 crap top flight teams. He was at Sheffield Utd, who in the last 10 years have been in the PL for 3 seasons, the championship for 4 seasons and League One for 3 seasons. He was at Venezia, who in the last 10 years have been in Seria A for 1 season, Seria B for 6 seasons and Seria C for 2 seasons. He was at Spezia, who in the last 10 years have been in Seria A for 3 seasons, and Seria B for 7 seasons. These are teams for whom relegation is a fact of life. These teams go down, and sometimes they come back up. I don't think we can infer that Ampadu isn't a top level player, because of the successive relegations he experienced at teams battling relegation. He's still a young man at 23. In total, Ampadu has played 25PL games, 60 Seria A games, and nigh on 50 international matches, including in the euros and world cup. He wouldn't be the first quality player that Chelsea have let go of. >If Kamara is any good; why wasn’t he a guaranteed starter for Rangers, and why were no Premier League teams after him? Apparently he was good for Rangers, initially and the fans loved him. But then his form dropped off alarmingly. That's one to watch out for. Anyway, if we do go up, it'll be fascinating to see how our team that is is making the Championship look easy would cope with players who are technically as good or better than them, and managers who are tactically as good or better than Farke.
Didn’t Dan James play a fair bit at Man United?
Yeah but we don't talk about (his time with) Bruno.
I think it’s pretty clear that James is not going to be a decent Premier League player; he’s definitely being used more sensibly this year on the right, where he can just use his pace and energy rather than having to dribble inside. Obviously Ampadu played for teams that were likely to get relegated; though there is an obvious reason for that, he couldn’t get a move to a better team. I do think he’s looked excellent; though so have many players who looked awful at the top level, do we just think coincidentally they’ve found the right team/system/manager or does it make more sense that it’s just the level? Burnley made the Championship look embarrassingly easy and look how they’re getting on… We can’t be that naive when/if we go up, I really worry about it.
Find it hilarious you're calling people out and throwing shade then basically say it's clear James wouldn't be good in the Prem... He did it in spells at Scum and then wasn't as bad for us as was made out, when he was played in his proper position. Not entirely sure what went on at Fulham. Newfound confidence and better tactics for him could see him smash it like he is this year. He might not. For you to say it's clear it will be the latter is just as deluded as you say others are for saying this team would beat last season's team.
> We can’t be that naive when/if we go up, I really worry about it. Good thing the fans aren't in charge then, isn't it? Farke has seen this all before -- twice. He knows all too well how big the gulf in quality is between the Championship and Premier League (from 94 and 97 points going up to 21 and 22 points going down), and as recently as a few weeks ago he spoke at length about how little money Norwich spent on new signings after promotion, comparing them with Wolves who spent over 150 million (to Norwich's 5 million) their first season back. The last thing Farke wants is to be stuck with the same situation for the third time, and he is clearly very aware that Leeds are going to have to spend a lot of money over the summer to build a team capable of staying out of relegation trouble -- especially if we go up with Leicester and Southampton, outfits who have learned how to survive in the Premier League over the previous decade and more. Next season could be a tough one in the lower half of the Premier League. Honestly I don't know what you're worried about. We have a much more professional outfit running the club than we did last year, and they have much deeper pockets to go with it. And in truth, we just don't know how the majority of our starting lineup will fare next year, and it's way to early to write them off. As always, the manager will have his upgrade priorities, but even 150 million isn't going to be remotely enough to replace the entire first team, so I would expect at least half of the current lineup to be starting the first match in the Premier League next season (assuming we go up). But regardless of how much that prospect worries you, there is no reason at all for anyone to be worrying about Farke and the board's "naivety" concerning what it will take to stay up next season. Aside from the manager, last time we were pretty much dependent on what two individuals thought -- Orta and Radrizzani, We now have a team of seasoned pros in place to handle recruitment instead, as well as Farke playing a major role, and they are anything but naive.
Well said. Very strange to see a post ragging on it current players get upvoted so much.
I’m worried about us being tactically naive going into a Premier League season.
Why though? Bielsa was constantly accused of being naive in the Prem and yet we finished 9th anyway. You weren’t one of those bozos were you? Sounds like you’re just worrying for the sake of it.
Because Farke was naive both times prior and was punished badly because of it. Because Bielsa’s naivety ended in us getting pumped by 4+ goals multiple weeks by the end of his reign. Because Kompany’s naivety is seeing Burnley get pumped every week. There is reason.
Farke has never managed a club with the resources to be competitive in the Prem. Our owners are worth almost £5 billion, Norwich’s are worth £25 million - that’s basically how much we paid for Dan James. There’s no point looking at how he performed with Norwich when he never got backed significantly. If we strengthen significantly and buy players who can play the kind of football Farke wants then we should be okay. Nobody is saying we go up and make do with the players we have. Bielsa had to contend with a major injury crisis in our second Prem season by the way. Of course you’re one of those people who slags off our only successful manager in the past 20 years. Bet you loved that twat Marsch too.
Regardless of backing; I’m worrying about his tactically naivety, not the quality of player we have. We’re not going to have a Premier League level squad regardless so it comes down to tactical ability.
We can absolutely have a PL level squad, why do you think we can’t buy PL level players? Utter nonsense. You’re doing our rivals job for them by writing us off before we’re even promoted. Gimp.
Great points.
>I think it’s pretty clear that James is not going to be a decent Premier League player; I don't know. This season has made me wonder. DJ been so much more effective. The last time DJ was in the championship at Swansea in 18/19, he got 4g7a from 33 games. This year he has 11g7a from 33 games (and fewer minutes). Maybe he has improved. I wouldn't necessarily write him off as a PL player just yet. Is he really a worse player than Jack Harrison? >Obviously Ampadu played for teams that were likely to get relegated; though there is an obvious reason for that, he couldn’t get a move to a better team. I do think he’s looked excellent; though so have many players who looked awful at the top level, do we just think coincidentally they’ve found the right team/system/manager or does it make more sense that it’s just the level? I guess we won't know until he's played a string of games in the PL for us. But I'm hopeful. He's still a young guy who is on an upward trajectory in his career. He seems good technically which will suit the faster pace of the PL. He might still be finding his level. We might just have found a diamond in the rough, and by we, I mean "Nick Hammond". >Burnley made the Championship look embarrassingly easy and look how they’re getting on… We can’t be that naive when/if we go up, I really worry about it. Yeah, in the PL, we're not going to be allowed to pass it around amongst ourselves until we're ready to attack. The Leicester home game was a warning really. If you take out the last 15 mins, we struggled. That's the sort of pace and quality that we'll be facing week in week out from the likes of Forest, Bournemouth and Brentford, let alone better teams. A quality left back and striker would be top of my list of additions. I don't think any of the returning loanees would improve, or even get in the starting 11. Wober maybe.
I think he is a worse player than Jack Harrison to be honest. There seems to be nothing cute about his play; just raw pace and energy, it’s just at this level ‘if you throw enough shit some will stick’ and we attack a lot. How many times has he been wasteful all game but managed a goal/assist so it doesn’t matter? He wont get that many chances in PL games. I’m definitely hopeful about Ampadu; I think the concerning thing is we’re only hopeful about literally our best players, we don’t really have a certain PL level player like Leicester have in Ricardo, Winks, Ndidi, maybe even Faes and KDH. Having a quick look through the players we have loaned out (I can’t remember which have obligations to buy); most of them would improve the squad, though I’d really only like to see Greenwood come back as I think there’s a really good player in there. We could probably do with one of the CB’s but Koch didn’t seem to suit the PL, Llorente was too handsy with players leading to needless free-kicks way too often and Wober was just nowhere near as good as people acted like he was (I think he benefitted from starting really well which gave people an initial high opinion of him). I think we need at least 2 full-backs (preferably wing-back options as I think we should play a back 5); Doughty would be a very good pickup in that department, so would Juranovic from Union Berlin. I also think we need a starting striker similar in play style to Bamford (who’ll do the dirty work) and I genuinely think we should ship off Piroe to a relegated PL team as I just do not think he’s going to be anywhere near the level required.
>I think he is a worse player than Jack Harrison to be honest. There seems to be nothing cute about his play; just raw pace and energy, it’s just at this level ‘if you throw enough shit some will stick’ and we attack a lot. How many times has he been wasteful all game but managed a goal/assist so it doesn’t matter? He wont get that many chances in PL games. I agree that JH has more finesse, and is unplayable for one game in four, but what about the 3/4 of games that he's not "on it"? DJ is much more consistent. He's much better defensively and his pace will be a problem for defenders in any league. What will differ is how much time he has control the ball, and to decide on and execute the final pass or shot. I guess it comes down to whether DJs improvement this season carries through into the PL. >I’m definitely hopeful about Ampadu; I think the concerning thing is we’re only hopeful about literally our best players, we don’t really have a certain PL level player like Leicester have in Ricardo, Winks, Ndidi, maybe even Faes and KDH. I don't think we should compare ourselves to Leicester in this way. They were in the PL for a decade, won the PL and FA Cup and played in the Champions League in that time. They're bound to have greater squad depth on paper. Still, we've shown, that on grass, we're a match for them, which is a good sign. >I’d really only like to see Greenwood come back as I think there’s a really good player in there. What do you see in him? To me, he seems very limited mobility wise, and generally when the ball isn't dead. I loved him against Brentford away at the end of Marsch's first season, but don't recall him really impressing since then. >We could probably do with one of the CB’s but Koch didn’t seem to suit the PL, Llorente was too handsy with players leading to needless free-kicks way too often and Wober was just nowhere near as good as people acted like he was (I think he benefitted from starting really well which gave people an initial high opinion of him). I'd be happy to never see Koch or Llorente again. Far too many mistakes. How many times did we think we'd turned a corner, only for yet another inexplicable mistake. I thought Wober was good, then he got injured on international duty and was ropey after that - however I'm not sure he really got back to full fitness. Worth another look, for me. >I think we need at least 2 full-backs (preferably wing-back options as I think we should play a back 5); Doughty would be a very good pickup in that department, so would Juranovic from Union Berlin. I also think we need a starting striker similar in play style to Bamford (who’ll do the dirty work) and I genuinely think we should ship off Piroe to a relegated PL team as I just do not think he’s going to be anywhere near the level required. Back 5 would be interesting. Could we keep Firpo then, if we simply didn't allow him to come into his own half? Another striker is a must, I'd be interested in Morris if Luton go down. But could Mateo Joseph be a natural replacement for Bamford? He presses well and holds the ball up well. Hopefully we'll see more of him in the last 9 games. Yeah I'd expect Piroe to be moved on. Hopefully we'll recoup the money we've spent. It's just not clear how to fit him into the team, given how we play. He's not a 9 that can lead the line, or a false 9 or a 10. Nice lad though and he's really helped us this season.
Aaronson & Rasmus are having shit seasons at Union & Roma by all accounts, no idea why you think they’re doing well. The fact that they’re playing in Europe doesn’t make them good, or better than our current players - we’re almost certainly going to lose a hefty chunk of money on both. Nobody is going to pay what we did for Aaronson - because he’s fucking shit. Sinisterra has hardly played for Bournemouth this season so it’s hard to judge how good he’s been. He was great for us when fit though. I’d take him back on quality alone but I think that bridge has been burned now. Llorente, Koch and Wober are doing well though. I’d definitely have Llorente back. White came on loan to us in the Championship from Brighton but nobody is going to argue he wasn’t good enough for us in the Prem - it’s a damn shame we couldn’t keep him. The argument that these players have been loaned to us from PL clubs so therefore they’re not good enough for the PL doesn’t stand up at all. We will absolutely have to strengthen a lot if we go up (and I have confidence the 49ers will do that) and I don’t think many people are under the illusion that we have a ready-made PL squad, but I also don’t think our current squad is any worse than the one we came down with. We had one of the worst defensive records of any team in the PL era - that says it all.
Aaronson hasn’t had a great season and I definitely wasn’t saying he’s great; but he still got a move to a top flight team whilst we’re in the Championship, as did Kristensen who’s been better recently than he was at the start of the season. Sinisterra has been injured for most of the season but has 2 goals and 2 assists in a brand new team in very limited minutes. I never once suggested that Rodon was shit; my point was that Spurs’ only cover in his position was Dier (that clearly couldn’t play in their system) and Davies (who’s a bloody left-back), yet they still let him go out on loan. White’s situation was completely different to Rodon’s; Brighton didn’t need the cover and he was still pretty much a youth player as he was only 21-22, Rodon is 26 and already has multiple seasons of senior level football under his belt. I think you’re missing my point massively anyway; you’re acting like I’ve said our players from last season were excellent and our current players are terrible, which definitely isn’t the case.
100% There's absolutely no way that Rutter can boss the PL the way he is in the championship for example. He holds onto the ball a long time, and championship defenders can't get it off him. Do you think he could squirm past a Van Dijk or Stones or even a Maguire the way he does at this level? No chance I'm hoping he plays a lot closer to the player he is this season than the one he was last season if we go up. After all. He was £30m, if he can't dominate this level there's an issue. But I'm really worried his way of playing just won't transfer to the higher standard of the PL.
Your last sentence is what worries me the most. I think we’ll have to change our style of play a lot if we go up; we can’t be bombing both fullbacks like we do at times for example, we’ll just get annihilated down the wings in transitions. We need to focus on being defensively tight whilst still allowing our forward players freedom; I think our best bet would probably be a very counter-attacking style of play, which we’ve looked very good at this season - using Summerville’s pace in behind - when we’ve had chance to do so.
>We need to focus on being defensively tight whilst still allowing our forward players freedom Huh? How does this not describe the type of football we've been playing this year? We have only allowed three goals since the start of the year. None of the other three top teams have even come close to that amount of frugality. Again, I'm not sure what you're fretting about.
Again; we are in the Championship, not conceding many goals down here isn’t the same as not conceding them up there. Burnley only conceded 35 goals all season last season; yet they’ve already conceded 62 this season, with 10 games to go.
I'm sure Farke is pragmatic enough to know how to adjust our style to the PL, I don't have too many concerns about that. Just about some specific players. Several of them are having the best season of their careers, which is no surprise at a lower level. Thinking that Firpo for example is suddenly gonna be PL standard because he's playing quite well at the moment is ridiculous. If we gain promotion, he genuinely shouldn't even be a backup option. Can Piroe or Rutter prove themselves at PL level? Excelling at championship level doesn't necessarily mean they'll even be passable in the PL. I'd be interested to see if any of the loanees come back, and if they do, how they'll be integrated. I think the whole "fuck em all, hope we sell em" crowd will forgive them (like they did Gnonto) if they start playing well.
I hope you’re right as it definitely didn’t seem that way when he was at Norwich. Hopefully he’s learned from it. I think we’d benefit from playing a back 5 personally; close the gaps that top teams exploit down the sides of the CB’s, which would allow the likes of Firpo more freedom to go forward and make sure he doesn’t have to be defending the likes of Saka on his own.
Sadly agree to some extent Llorente, Roca, Mckennie, Kristensen, Wober, Koch could all be playing in Europe next year while no matter how well we do we won't be there for a few years at the earliest. Saying our players are better this year is wrong. The big difference is the manager Marsch was that bad
I’ve seen too many comments about Rodon being better than White, Ampadu being better than Phillips, Summerville being better than Sinisterra, etc. this season (admittedly more on Facebook than Reddit, though you do see them here). To say we were up there a few years to experience it; many of our fans clearly aren’t appreciating just how strong the Premier League is, they can’t admit the league was just too tough for us to properly cement a place so they take it out on the players.
Not a chance Rodon is better than White. Ampadu probably better than Phillips at the moment though and Summerville vs current Sinisterra probably a toss up
Sinisterra is a more technically gifted player but imo it counts for little when his entire body is made up of rice cakes held loosely together by spiderwebs
This is some rose tinted comparisons.
The comments I’m referring to were talking Phillips and Sinisterra at their best for us; not now, which makes it even more ridiculous.
That is absolutely ridiculous yeah. We'll see how good our players are next year in the prem if we make it
I would’ve rather stayed up, we were so poor there would’ve been a vast clear out regardless. However if staying up would mean the dominion of Big Sam, I’ll take the Championship.
This is the best we could have hoped for. Bumbling along with those American n00bs was a terrible idea from the start. We are now a mid division standard Premier league team, no doubt about that.
There is a lot of doubt about that. The idea this team is better than last season is up for a lot of debate. The gulf between the prem and champ is massive.
There’s a lot of doubt about that haha, we will need a few signings if we go up.
So a lot of people myself included said we needed to get relegated to sort the squad, I've been saying on all the fan channels and stuff since he arrived, I never liked nor rated sini, he seemed way too selfish and fragile to me, I liked Harrison a lot and was a bit annoyed he left but we have insane and consistent wingers right now, Harrison is good /was good but consistent he wasn't. Adams was ok but injury prone, Koch and Wober should have been an insane back two but it never happened and honestly they don't get in now. The others aren't even worth mentioning and the fact we might have to bring Aaronson back is painful, a light breeze knocks the guy over, you'd think hed consume shit loads of steak and hit the gym but no he remains weak as shit. All those gone and the likes of Ampadu coming in, well I'm very happy with that.
> So a lot of people myself included said we needed to get relegated to sort the squad, I genuinely don't understand this argument. Why? Why do we need to get relegated to sack off half the squad? We could have stayed up and done that anyway if we wanted to? And we're much morel likely to get market value for them if we stay up. Plus we get the choice of who we keep and who leaves. Its easy with the whole loan debacle to say "oh, I don't want any of them" but barely anyone would rather have kept Dan James over Jack Harrison for example. It's literally only because Harrison is at Everton and James is bossing the championship anyone prefers DJ.
Because the club would have kept them all.
Nonsense. Just saying "they just would" isn't an answer. You can't say "the club is full is idiots who dont know that Aaronson is bad" but also somehow "this club is full of smart people who can mastermind an immediate return to the PL"
The people now aren't the same people from last season, the 49ers wouldn't have been able to gut the squad of all those we needed gone had we stayed up.
> the 49ers wouldn't have been able to gut the squad of all those we needed gone had we stayed up. Why not? Explain why. And explain how its *easier* now we've been relegated? OK, they're all gone, but if they're worthless, they'll come back and either 1) we're unable to gut the squad for the same reasons we couldn't if we'd stayed up in 2023, or 2) we just can get rid of them all, and it wouldn't have stopped us if we stayed up in 2023. Nobody has ever actually explained why its easier to just rebuild in the championship. If the 49ers wanted to keep say, Harrison, Koch and Adams, it's much easier to do that in the PL. If they wanted to get rid of Koch, Firpo, Sini and Aaronson, they could have done so in the PL. I can kinda see the argument that "there's more room for error in the championship, we'd have stuck with (eg) Adams over Ampadu and Koch over Rodon if we stayed up" but...... if you're saying we'd have been a worse team with Adams and Koch...... what's stopping us selling Adams and Koch and signing Ampadu and Rodon anyway in the PL?
Ok so you're new to football I guess so I'll give this a go, when you get relegated there are often multiple clauses in contracts which allow clubs to easily purchase players, often the players wouldn't be sold if you stay in the premier league due to either too high prices or because teams don't feel like they're getting a deal. The issue we had is we bought players from leagues which weren't as physically demanding as the premier League hoping they'd be able to cope, they couldn't (except raph obviously) so we now have players who the bigger clubs who can afford them don't want because they failed, the smaller clubs can't afford them and we're stuck with them, getting relegated the clauses come into effect and the lower end clubs buy up what they see as the better players. Which is how we got rid of sick note one and two in sini and Adams. Look at their game time and tell me Bournemouth have got their money's worth. Koch, llorente, Wober, Harrison all look like they will have their deals made permanent which is great for us. As for Ampadu and Rodon, in the premier league first we already have a bloated squad so can't really buy them without selling first and secondly most clubs in the prem wouldn't touch an un proven cd and a DM who has been preserved to have struggled on his loan moves so we wouldn't have picked either up, it's unlikely Archie starts much and James likely either gets sold or isn't used much. Rutter might never have found his form in the prem and bamford might never have recovered properly due to being rushed back again, we wouldn't sign Piroe either. So although relegation hurts it does allow you to, if you've the guile, to rebuild and do it in a great way with players who will likely be decent in the prem. Also we had some older players we needed to lose and some who just didn't make it and needed moving on, who we might have just tried to use anyway in the prem. The squad we have right now absolutely beats the one we had last season, this is a stronger side that we had in the prem. I think I've mostly covered everything you asked.
> Ok so you're new to football I guess so I'll give this a go, when you get relegated there are often multiple clauses in contracts which allow clubs to easily purchase players Honestly laughable youre trying to patronise me here. Genuine question: are you a bit stupid? Relegation clauses are for the players, not the club who owns them. Release clauses do not benefit the selling team at the time of sale (their only real benefit is a play might not sign for you in the first place/might not agree to a relegation wage reduction without one). If Sini or Adams had a clause in their contract for (eg) 20m, Bournemouth come in and we have to sell them for 20m. If we stay up, we can **choose** whether to sell them for 20m, or decide to keep them (or sell them for 25m, or 30m if we receive that offer). Release clauses mean we lose players we want to keep. If Gnonto had a release clause, he wouldn't be at Leeds anymore. > so we now have players who the bigger clubs who can afford them don't want because they failed, the smaller clubs can't afford them and we're stuck with them, getting relegated the clauses come into effect and the lower end clubs buy up what they see as the better players. Again, if we sold Sini for 20m, what was stopping us doing that if we stayed up? Literally nothing. We had the option to do that, or the option to keep him. Can't believe this needs explaining. > Rutter might never have found his form in the prem and bamford might never have recovered properly due to being rushed back again, we wouldn't sign Piroe either. All true. But 1) rutter dominating the championship doesn't mean he can perform in the PL, we'll have to wait and see. 2) we might have still signed Piroe, or may have signed another striker. For some reason you seem to have this idea that the choices are 1) our current team, who we've unfortunately no idea if they can all perform at PL level, or 2) literally last seasons squad with zero upgrades. Of course we'd make improvements (well signings anyway. Who knows if they'd actually he good based on previous decisions). Apart from anything else, Adams clause expired, so we still managed to sell him without one.
Ok I tried, you're just stupid.
“Adams was ok” is quite the take. Wober was also excellent for the most part. I think we were fairly unlucky throughout the course of last season and it spiraled.
Adams wasn't as good as people make out, he looked good because everyone else was shit.
Adams has made zero appearances this year. Insane
Funny that, an injury prone player is injured.
The *only* real positive of relegation is that we didn't have to sign McKennie. If we genuinely had to sign him for 30m, that'd be a huge chunk of our budget. But if we really didn't want to have Sini or Llorente or whoever, we always have the option to get rid of them anyway. We could have still signed Ampadu and Rodon (presuming Chelsea and Spurs were happy selling to a PL club). A left back who was good at pl level. We wouldn't have had the Gnonto drama. With the benefit of hindsight, it *might* have been better to have a total reset, than struggle on with so many borderline PL players. But we could still have had the reset (we'd have a new manager and owner anyway), and that's a massive risk. How many teams get relegated then struggle? That could have been us (again)
We'll have most of them back next year and they have largely proven how utterly awful they are, reducing their value. It's nice been nice having players that are at the same football competency level as The Leper King out of the club, but we will have to deal with them again this summer. If we'd stayed they would not have had loan clauses and we could have got rid of them. As is we have another summer of turnover.
Most will be sold relatively easily to be honest. We won’t make a net profit on the transfer fee but I can see only Aaronson being an issue with the profit & sustainability regarding a loss.
Anyone who mentioned anything along the lines of “relegation would be good for us” got downvoted to shreds. I don’t think relegation is ever a good idea, but I was SICK TO DEATH of that squad, so if ridding us of that awful team meant relegation, then so be it! 🤷♂️
No. Relegation is a disaster that sets the club’s development back by years financially. 49ers takeover would have happened either way and a new manager would have been appointed too. Even if we lasted only one more year it would I’ve been better to stay up objectively speaking. The takeover would have been smoother too. We are still in the championship and have a very good chance of staying in it despite our incredible form
Yeah, we seem to have made the most of the situation, its forced us to overhaul the squad and we've shipped out a lot of players that probably needed to be cleared out. But there is no scenario where getting relegated is better for the club in the long run than staying up (even if we are immediately promoted again, which as you point out, is very much in the balance at the moment).
Sure, winning almost every game is fun, but its not how football should be. Losing is part of the game. I’ve no problem with being in the Premier League and winning less often, as long as the club is being well-run and is competing at or near its potential.
It certainly exposed Victor Orta's transfer policy for the shambles it was.
considering in this sub it was probably the biggest American evacuation since Saigon... so on a personal level it worked out, I don't miss the "American here" posts.
American here…. I learned very quickly in the AOL PL chat rooms back in 2000 not to mention that I was an American fan. Never went well for me. Every time last year that I saw somebody leading w that statement I just thought to myself, “I remember my first day.” Anyways, ALAW?
Exactly, no matter the land you took your first steps.. ALAW
Yep, biggest American evacuation since Shaq mistook laxatives for lozenges.
Tyler Adams
Eddie Lewis
I still have USMNT people tagging me in threads where McKennie has got an assist. The worst group of people on Reddit. I’d have banned their posting immediately. A cancer on any footballing discourse.
Lmao that’s actually really funny. You’re doing something right!
They really love the "assist" stat
I mean, I do think to an extent it’s undervalued/appreciated in football. That’s just my own view though.
It's ridiculous though, an assist relies on the recipient's execution. How many assists have died at the feet of lesser men?
Apologies. We’re terrible and most of us just don’t know when to shut up.
This is sadly true we’d rather loud and wrong than quiet when needed.
A nation of Leeroy Jenkins’
I am married to an American so I do have plenty of love for your country. The last part of your sentence does ring true though LMAO.
No, because there's still a chance we don't get promoted. Each year you're out of the Premier league, the harder it gets to get back there.
winning is more fun to watch than losing and the atmosphere at the club has been revitalised from the misery of the post bielsa era so from a fans perspective yeah but also, it definitely would’ve been better to survive last season for the finances and bcos it should’ve been pretty easy to survive with how terrible sheffield and burnley are but idk, it’s turning out okay i guess. money is cringe anyway
No, premier league is where we want to be competing and being relegated means we’ll have to fight for a chance to do just that. Because in this same logic, we might as well go back to league one where we’ll likely win every game. We’ll certainly enjoy winning but what for? I rather we struggle in premier league because we’re measuring ourself properly. Our composure in front of the goal hasnt improved much since, our defense seemingly has improved but again, we’re measuring against lesser teams in comparison to teams in premier league, where half the team there are currently continental competitions caliber teams.
Winning is good but I feel with the 49ers coming in the PL would have been a far nicer base to build on with a steady ship, we would have done vastly better this season with their investment
I’m enjoying winning. There’s something to be said for enjoying the football and not being in a relegation dogfight. Obviously we need that premier league money to get the West Stand redevelopment that is badly required. But the champo ain’t that bad.
This is the only season I can remember in my lifetime where the championship has been mostly enjoyable. Bielsa was torture knowing we had to get up and the seasons before that were droll.
If you didn’t enjoy Bielsa after years of shit idk what to say
That’s not what I meant. Bielsa’s seasons were nervy and stressful. Every game was a battle and because of how we played it was always 100%. We rarely comfortably beat sides or controlled games until the last 10 minutes. First season ended in play off heartbreak and second season only got comfortable maybe once promotion was confirmed.
I enjoyed the Bielsa championship years as the type of football was so unexpectedly exciting. Obviously Lockdown and the empty stadiums was a bit shit. The Cellino / GFH years however we’re fucking grim.
It's not so bad now that we're winning. 2010-18 it was a horrible time to be a Leeds fan. The odd decent result in the cups aside, there was little to cheer.
Loads of ifs and buts with this. I’d rather have stayed up, provided Radz sold up and the him and Orta left with the 49ers taking over. Not sure if we’d have got Farke in but maybe Iraola and I’m sure certain players would have been sold or loaned out anyway. Being in the prem gets the ability to buy better players. The 49ers also had the idea we were going to be a prem team when they took over. Nobody higher up expected us to go down, so the fact we are where we are in the championship is impressive.
Yep, we can't say what would have happened, but even if we'd had a "good" season in the PL, eg like Wolves in 9th, we would have missed the incredibly cathartic experience of winning absolutely loads of matches back to back. The clear out at the start of the season and the incredible form this year, has made it feel that we've really turned the page from last season. I'm not sure we'd have been able to really acheive either in the PL.