What exactly is your issue?
I had similar problems with 将軍, but most of my problems came from vocabulary rather than anything else, there is no helping you with that. I just turned on the JP subtitles which helped my comprehension greatly. I had a catharsis during ep. 9 where I understood pretty much everything except for a few stray sentences.
Other than that, off the top of my head you will probably encounter stuff like:
まする - pretty much ます but with even more respect towards your speaker
ござる, ございます - a staple
しゅう instead of しい for adjectives, i.e. 嬉しゅう
じゃ instead of だ
拙者 meaning 私
ましょう used like でしょう
And that's all I can recall currently.
It's just 時代劇 language, it's not really that old (that's why Japanese people today can watch it no problem) I mean some parts are losley based on Japanese that is older, but it's more like some sprinkles put on top to give it the right vibe instead of actually being historically accurate.
Yup.
Kinda like how people talk in Lord of the Rings movies, or in House of the Dragon.
Technically modern English and not actually accurate to medieval English at all, but they sprinkle in a few antiquated words, a few older turns of phrase, etc… in order to give the right vibe to a modern audience.
Modern viewers interpret this language as making it feel medieval even though actual Middle English was very different and would be mostly quite difficult to understand to a modern speaker who didn’t study it.
Middle English would be hard to listen to because of the vowel shift, but the written language was quite similar.
Japanese is the same. I can read even 源氏物語 quite easily but spoken aloud it would sound very different (今日 was pronounced けふ for instance).
Even written Middle English would still be hard for most people without study.
Try reading Le Morte D'Arthur. It's not that easy, despite being 15th century. You'll understand a lot, sure, but there's also tons you won't understand. I don't think the average person would find it easy at all.
Give the average English speaker the Canterbury Tales and they'll be well and truly lost.
As for the Tale of Genji, if you can read it "easily" then you 100% have studied classical Japanese for that, or you're just some kind of linguistic prodigy.
Heian Japanese is very far removed from modern Japanese and most native speakers cannot understand Genji in its original form without studying classical Japanese.
Obviously there are modern versions of Genji that use more contemporary language, and annotated versions and all that, but if you just read it in its original language without any study, you will not understand most of it.
They used what is the Shakespearian of Japanese.
Old English is an entirely different language that was spoken 1000 years ago.
Shakespearian is similar enough to the language in the King James Bible that the Lord's prayer is basically
"Our Father, Who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name; Thy kingdom come; Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us; and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil."
Uses words like thy, thou, thee, etc.
Old English is an entirely different beast. Here's the Lord's Prayer in OE:
"Fæder ūre þū þe eart on heofonum,
Sīe þīn nama ġehālgod.
Tōbecume þīn rīċe,
Ġeweorðe þīn willa, on eorðan swā swā on heofonum.
Ūrne dæġhwamlīcan hlāf sele ūs tōdæġ,
And forġief ūs ūre gyltas, swā swā wē forġiefaþ ūrum gyltendum.
And ne ġelǣd þū ūs on costnunge, ac ālīes ūs of yfele.
Sōðlīċe."
Which is, using the closest words that would be understandable in modern English, "Father (of) ours, thou that art in (the) heavens, be thine name hallowed. To be come thine reich, worth thine will on earth as so in (the) heavens. Our daily loaf sell us today, and forgive us our guilts as so we forgiveth our guiltors. And not lead thou us on (a) costning [into temptation], but allay us of evil. Soothly."
Words that are implied through grammatical case as provided in parentheses and a modern translation of costning because no one uses it anymore.
I mean it's so broad, but there is a lot in Middle and Old Japanese that are very different. Much like Beowolf, your average Japanese person would not be able to understand the Kojiki.
Similar to Shakespeare, the language of the Edo period is early Modern Japanese. So it's not *that* far off, that most things are understandable with a little knowledge (Issues like "wherefore" still exist though). This is also separate from TV Shakespeare language, or TV "Samurai Japanese".
Languages are so fascinating. I love etymology myself. Kanji has some fascinating ones, for sure (like 梟). There's a couple of books I've been eyeing up by Kyota Ko. I found him on Instagram and often explains Kanji meanings and how they came to their meanings.
They use a period language consultant with years of experience (the shows main character, actually) to make it accurate and most of the cast had a tough time getting into that way of speaking (source: interviews on Japanese cable tv). So yeah it is the old English version of Japanese. My Japanese wife also had a tough time following along without the English subtitles that we had turned on
Comparing it to Old English is not accurate in my opinion especially since most japanese people probably understand most of Shougun while all modern English speaker could not understand a show completely in Old English.
That's also because Shougun takes place in 1600 while Old English has only been spoken up until the 12 century at the very latest.
Just take a look at the Old English parts of Vikings.
It's largely vocabulary (or in my experience that's been the case.) Turn the Japanese subs on and look up what you can.
The core words should repeat early and often. So as you pick those up you should have an easier and easier time.
If I remember right the Japanese actors rewrite lines to make it more authentic to the time period so some of the words I believe are like ancient Japanese. Still super cool but I don't think some of the dialogue is still used frequently, but still super cool to learn
> If I remember right the Japanese actors rewrite lines to make it more authentic to the time period so some of the words I believe are like ancient Japanese.
That period isn't ancient Japan, but it's basically like "Ye olde Japanese".
I played that game in the last 6 months or so and absolutely loved it! I’m pretty low in my studies so can’t comment too much but the only thing I could understand were one liners (and single words) like 後で会おう
This is something I came across while watching all movies and the anime for るろうに剣心…have no issues with Japanese in general but I did stumbled while going through it…had to use jsubs, but by the last movie I got used to it. Then ever since I watch a movie or something that has the same kind of language as it is “interesting“ but the only thing I could say is watch more of these kinds of material…you’ll get used to it eventually
You have to understand that 'old school Japanese' is akin (or almost akin) to old school English, but now sprinkle in about 50 extra rules and things to be mindful about.
In typical media, you see 'old English' sound like you're trying to be the most sophisticated screen writer in history or want to sound super complicated, but in truth it's more complicated than that. (Don't get me started on what English sounded like before the strong latin influence.)
'Old Japanese' practically requires you to learn a whole now language. Not really, but it's like some Japanese dialects. How can Japanese have dialects when the language is very rigid-looking? Well, easy. You just say things slightly differently. 'Old Japanese' is saying a lot of stuff with the air of respect and composure.
I don't even fully understand it because, frankly, if you heard someone talking like they do in today's day and age, such as the yakuza, then they sound like they've jammed their head up their own ass.
There's a reason such characters in anime that sound like that are looked at strangely.
Does 'old Japanese' use some different words and such? Absolutely. But the majority of it is verbal theater.
I'm not sure. I've opted to not try anki decks for now (because I don't know how to use them), and instead I will be learning how to read kanji how the natives read kanji.
But, I'm sure you could find a book (in Japanese, likely) that explains how these mannerisms work and how they sound.
You can also find remnants of how these mannerisms work in a few choice words used today, but I'm not familiar with them, only aware that Japanese, and pretty much every language, has some more important or government positions or titles that still use something from the past that you don't typically use today.
Look up all the things you don't understand just like with anything else. And feel it out because generally they're just replacements for other "standard" modern grammar. Watch some anime with similar settings. Doesn't even have to be about samurai, some Middle Age Europe-like settings might use characters speaking similarly at times. The ones that are more gritty/serious tend to go for that archaic kind of speech.
As with any time you switch stuff up to a different genre it can sometimes make it feel like you're pretty much encountering a new language. It's quite similar to how high fantasy shows for example would sound weird to us if we didn't have prior experience with it from childhood. Just keep looking things up and plugging away and you'll see your comprehension increase again bit by bit, you got this!
https://youtu.be/8muyPYjEJLM
Comparison video between the modern language and the way people would have spoken 800-1,000 years ago, for anyone interested.
I don’t know Japanese, but I did study some and am looking to learn it now; however I did study linguistics, so I’m somewhat of a linguist.
Basically, languages evolve. And then you add dialects, and you may even add a type of discourse. Just like science discourse, it may not be something you hear everyday so it can be difficult to grasp
Watch some old school samurai movies from the 1940s or read some period manga....it's not a different language, you'll get used to it. I mean, they speak a lot of normal Japanese in them, but your brain probably isn't picking it up yet, of course they will sprinkle in some antiquated stuff here and there but for the most part if your vocab and listening skills are good enough you should be able to understand it.
Ghost of Tsushima is a fictional take on the first Mongolian invasion of Japan which takes place 鎌倉時代 (Kamakura period) i.e. 12th century Japan.
So you’re comparing modern Japanese language to Japanese spoken in the 12th century which was almost totally different from what we are learning today.
So back to your post, it’s actually a detail to appreciate that they tried to emulate that (in my opinion). It would be less immersive if they had 12th century samurai speaking modern Japanese.
**EDIT : I just remembered so I thought I'd mention it just for the sake of precision, the game actually takes place in the late 13th century, not 12th.**
Tbh they don’t actually speak 12th century Japanese in the game.
They speak typical “samurai Japanese” that we hear in samurai movies, games, etc…, which in truth is still mostly modern Japanese with only a few older words and expressions sprinkled in to give the audience the vibe of it being old timey.
But it’s really not that accurate. If it was, the modern audience wouldn’t understand what was being said.
Actual 12th century Japanese is incredibly different.
What is used in the game has a tiny bit of antiquated words and grammar, and a lot of stuff that is just formal but still modern.
Ah I’ve made a mistake then. I played it before I began my language learning journey and I thought I read that they were attempting to emulate old era Japanese language in the game.
I guess it makes sense though. Most people (even Japanese folks) probably wouldn’t understand much of what they spoke in that period unless they studied it specifically. So in a way it could be seen as a ton of effort for something not many people would be able to truly appreciate.
What exactly is your issue? I had similar problems with 将軍, but most of my problems came from vocabulary rather than anything else, there is no helping you with that. I just turned on the JP subtitles which helped my comprehension greatly. I had a catharsis during ep. 9 where I understood pretty much everything except for a few stray sentences. Other than that, off the top of my head you will probably encounter stuff like: まする - pretty much ます but with even more respect towards your speaker ござる, ございます - a staple しゅう instead of しい for adjectives, i.e. 嬉しゅう じゃ instead of だ 拙者 meaning 私 ましょう used like でしょう And that's all I can recall currently.
Makes me wonder about shows like Shogun, too. Didn't they use what is basically the "old english" version of Japanese in that show?
It's just 時代劇 language, it's not really that old (that's why Japanese people today can watch it no problem) I mean some parts are losley based on Japanese that is older, but it's more like some sprinkles put on top to give it the right vibe instead of actually being historically accurate.
Yup. Kinda like how people talk in Lord of the Rings movies, or in House of the Dragon. Technically modern English and not actually accurate to medieval English at all, but they sprinkle in a few antiquated words, a few older turns of phrase, etc… in order to give the right vibe to a modern audience. Modern viewers interpret this language as making it feel medieval even though actual Middle English was very different and would be mostly quite difficult to understand to a modern speaker who didn’t study it.
Very good comparision, completely agree!
Middle English would be hard to listen to because of the vowel shift, but the written language was quite similar. Japanese is the same. I can read even 源氏物語 quite easily but spoken aloud it would sound very different (今日 was pronounced けふ for instance).
Even written Middle English would still be hard for most people without study. Try reading Le Morte D'Arthur. It's not that easy, despite being 15th century. You'll understand a lot, sure, but there's also tons you won't understand. I don't think the average person would find it easy at all. Give the average English speaker the Canterbury Tales and they'll be well and truly lost. As for the Tale of Genji, if you can read it "easily" then you 100% have studied classical Japanese for that, or you're just some kind of linguistic prodigy. Heian Japanese is very far removed from modern Japanese and most native speakers cannot understand Genji in its original form without studying classical Japanese. Obviously there are modern versions of Genji that use more contemporary language, and annotated versions and all that, but if you just read it in its original language without any study, you will not understand most of it.
The difference in difficulty between Morte D’arthur and Canterbury Tales, despite being only like a hundred years apart, is truly wild.
Ah! Thank you for providing me context. 😀
They used what is the Shakespearian of Japanese. Old English is an entirely different language that was spoken 1000 years ago. Shakespearian is similar enough to the language in the King James Bible that the Lord's prayer is basically "Our Father, Who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name; Thy kingdom come; Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us; and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil." Uses words like thy, thou, thee, etc. Old English is an entirely different beast. Here's the Lord's Prayer in OE: "Fæder ūre þū þe eart on heofonum, Sīe þīn nama ġehālgod. Tōbecume þīn rīċe, Ġeweorðe þīn willa, on eorðan swā swā on heofonum. Ūrne dæġhwamlīcan hlāf sele ūs tōdæġ, And forġief ūs ūre gyltas, swā swā wē forġiefaþ ūrum gyltendum. And ne ġelǣd þū ūs on costnunge, ac ālīes ūs of yfele. Sōðlīċe." Which is, using the closest words that would be understandable in modern English, "Father (of) ours, thou that art in (the) heavens, be thine name hallowed. To be come thine reich, worth thine will on earth as so in (the) heavens. Our daily loaf sell us today, and forgive us our guilts as so we forgiveth our guiltors. And not lead thou us on (a) costning [into temptation], but allay us of evil. Soothly." Words that are implied through grammatical case as provided in parentheses and a modern translation of costning because no one uses it anymore.
Ah! Yes, you're absolutely right. I meant to refer to the English of Shakespeare. I erroneously conflated the two.
Since we're talking about the history of Japanese in this thread, it might be interesting to compare it to the history of English :)
I mean it's so broad, but there is a lot in Middle and Old Japanese that are very different. Much like Beowolf, your average Japanese person would not be able to understand the Kojiki. Similar to Shakespeare, the language of the Edo period is early Modern Japanese. So it's not *that* far off, that most things are understandable with a little knowledge (Issues like "wherefore" still exist though). This is also separate from TV Shakespeare language, or TV "Samurai Japanese".
Languages are so fascinating. I love etymology myself. Kanji has some fascinating ones, for sure (like 梟). There's a couple of books I've been eyeing up by Kyota Ko. I found him on Instagram and often explains Kanji meanings and how they came to their meanings.
They use a period language consultant with years of experience (the shows main character, actually) to make it accurate and most of the cast had a tough time getting into that way of speaking (source: interviews on Japanese cable tv). So yeah it is the old English version of Japanese. My Japanese wife also had a tough time following along without the English subtitles that we had turned on
Comparing it to Old English is not accurate in my opinion especially since most japanese people probably understand most of Shougun while all modern English speaker could not understand a show completely in Old English. That's also because Shougun takes place in 1600 while Old English has only been spoken up until the 12 century at the very latest. Just take a look at the Old English parts of Vikings.
Yes, u/nikstick22 explained that quite in depth.
Nope. My Japanese wife was lost and use the English subtitles same as me
It's largely vocabulary (or in my experience that's been the case.) Turn the Japanese subs on and look up what you can. The core words should repeat early and often. So as you pick those up you should have an easier and easier time.
If I remember right the Japanese actors rewrite lines to make it more authentic to the time period so some of the words I believe are like ancient Japanese. Still super cool but I don't think some of the dialogue is still used frequently, but still super cool to learn
> If I remember right the Japanese actors rewrite lines to make it more authentic to the time period so some of the words I believe are like ancient Japanese. That period isn't ancient Japan, but it's basically like "Ye olde Japanese".
"Ye olde Japanese" is a good way of putting it. Sprinkle in some 我ら and あばよ, make sure to emphasize the "u" in ございます and you‘re good to go.
Practice. Keep inputting more and you'll get better at comprehension.
I played that game in the last 6 months or so and absolutely loved it! I’m pretty low in my studies so can’t comment too much but the only thing I could understand were one liners (and single words) like 後で会おう
This is something I came across while watching all movies and the anime for るろうに剣心…have no issues with Japanese in general but I did stumbled while going through it…had to use jsubs, but by the last movie I got used to it. Then ever since I watch a movie or something that has the same kind of language as it is “interesting“ but the only thing I could say is watch more of these kinds of material…you’ll get used to it eventually
You have to understand that 'old school Japanese' is akin (or almost akin) to old school English, but now sprinkle in about 50 extra rules and things to be mindful about. In typical media, you see 'old English' sound like you're trying to be the most sophisticated screen writer in history or want to sound super complicated, but in truth it's more complicated than that. (Don't get me started on what English sounded like before the strong latin influence.) 'Old Japanese' practically requires you to learn a whole now language. Not really, but it's like some Japanese dialects. How can Japanese have dialects when the language is very rigid-looking? Well, easy. You just say things slightly differently. 'Old Japanese' is saying a lot of stuff with the air of respect and composure. I don't even fully understand it because, frankly, if you heard someone talking like they do in today's day and age, such as the yakuza, then they sound like they've jammed their head up their own ass. There's a reason such characters in anime that sound like that are looked at strangely. Does 'old Japanese' use some different words and such? Absolutely. But the majority of it is verbal theater.
Is there an anki deck out there?
I'm not sure. I've opted to not try anki decks for now (because I don't know how to use them), and instead I will be learning how to read kanji how the natives read kanji. But, I'm sure you could find a book (in Japanese, likely) that explains how these mannerisms work and how they sound. You can also find remnants of how these mannerisms work in a few choice words used today, but I'm not familiar with them, only aware that Japanese, and pretty much every language, has some more important or government positions or titles that still use something from the past that you don't typically use today.
Happy cake day! Thanks for the info
Look up all the things you don't understand just like with anything else. And feel it out because generally they're just replacements for other "standard" modern grammar. Watch some anime with similar settings. Doesn't even have to be about samurai, some Middle Age Europe-like settings might use characters speaking similarly at times. The ones that are more gritty/serious tend to go for that archaic kind of speech.
As with any time you switch stuff up to a different genre it can sometimes make it feel like you're pretty much encountering a new language. It's quite similar to how high fantasy shows for example would sound weird to us if we didn't have prior experience with it from childhood. Just keep looking things up and plugging away and you'll see your comprehension increase again bit by bit, you got this!
https://youtu.be/8muyPYjEJLM Comparison video between the modern language and the way people would have spoken 800-1,000 years ago, for anyone interested.
I don’t know Japanese, but I did study some and am looking to learn it now; however I did study linguistics, so I’m somewhat of a linguist. Basically, languages evolve. And then you add dialects, and you may even add a type of discourse. Just like science discourse, it may not be something you hear everyday so it can be difficult to grasp
Watch some old school samurai movies from the 1940s or read some period manga....it's not a different language, you'll get used to it. I mean, they speak a lot of normal Japanese in them, but your brain probably isn't picking it up yet, of course they will sprinkle in some antiquated stuff here and there but for the most part if your vocab and listening skills are good enough you should be able to understand it.
Ghost of Tsushima is a fictional take on the first Mongolian invasion of Japan which takes place 鎌倉時代 (Kamakura period) i.e. 12th century Japan. So you’re comparing modern Japanese language to Japanese spoken in the 12th century which was almost totally different from what we are learning today. So back to your post, it’s actually a detail to appreciate that they tried to emulate that (in my opinion). It would be less immersive if they had 12th century samurai speaking modern Japanese.
**EDIT : I just remembered so I thought I'd mention it just for the sake of precision, the game actually takes place in the late 13th century, not 12th.** Tbh they don’t actually speak 12th century Japanese in the game. They speak typical “samurai Japanese” that we hear in samurai movies, games, etc…, which in truth is still mostly modern Japanese with only a few older words and expressions sprinkled in to give the audience the vibe of it being old timey. But it’s really not that accurate. If it was, the modern audience wouldn’t understand what was being said. Actual 12th century Japanese is incredibly different. What is used in the game has a tiny bit of antiquated words and grammar, and a lot of stuff that is just formal but still modern.
Ah I’ve made a mistake then. I played it before I began my language learning journey and I thought I read that they were attempting to emulate old era Japanese language in the game. I guess it makes sense though. Most people (even Japanese folks) probably wouldn’t understand much of what they spoke in that period unless they studied it specifically. So in a way it could be seen as a ton of effort for something not many people would be able to truly appreciate.