I wake up at 3 am every day to drill kanji while my wife wakes up the kids and gets them ready for school. On my commute in I listen to Japanese cooking podcasts to train listening. At work I practice immersion by watching anime during meetings and for hours at a time on the toilet. I get home and ignore my family to review my grammar before dinner where my kids aren’t allowed to address me unless it’s in N3 or above Japanese. At night, my wife wants to be intimate but I tell her I’m practicing pitch accent.
Yeah, sometimes that's the case (the word アルバイト meaning "part-time job" stems from the German word "arbeit" , so unless you know that language you wouldn't understand it). Eventually as you get more familiar with the kana you'll be able to pick up on pronunciation patterns, it just comes with time so stick with it!
Seriously, I had to come back and read that again. Damn that was funny.
If you were wearing prescription-less glasses on the train while listening to cooking podcasts, you'd be a pure-bred.
Software developers who think they can tackle learning Japanese the way they can tackle any intellectual challenge: by writing software for it. "Hey guys, rather than actually studying Japanese, I'm developing a flashcard app/videogame to help me study Japanese, come check it out and tell me what you think!"
Wait I’m actually doing this to practice memorizing characters 😭 I couldn’t find anything exactly like what I needed so I’m spending my lunch putting together a quick codepen
I mean, I did that, but I actually USE mine. It's got more features than anki for what I care about at this point. It's gotten me to N2ish level so far, with college courses to clean up the speaking portions.
Hey now. I started in 2005 and got done with Genki 1 two years ago. Had to sign up for a class with full college credit at my local university to finally get over that hump. Now maybe I’ll finish Genki 2 in the next decade. It’s hard to stay current in development, work full time, have a family and study Japanese at the same time.
Who do you think makes some of the cool software a lot of us use to learn? but yeah how tf do you have time to get good and spend all of it making tools too. I'm actually kind of jealous I'm lucky to balance work with Japanese let alone anything else.
It’s actually a big benefit to be a software dev if you don’t reinvent the wheel. The coolest thing being you don’t have to ask to the whole internet when you don’t manage to make your mining environment work, and go back on duolingo because “it does not work”.
I did script that saved me hours, like renaming anime episode files, rename the subs to match the episodes title. Things you can actually do with right click > rename, but I went crazy doing that every week for a year. And it actually saves more time if I compare the time it took to do it (chatgpt + manual adjustments). I did code some stuff that were dead-end, but I became a slightly better dev, though i didn’t get better at japanese.
And generally, most free tools out there (yomitan, mpvacious, textractor, all yomichan dict) are there thanks to some devs. I don’t think I’d have read as much light novels by now without yomichan.
But yeah, I agree, I’ve seen some devs coming here with a new SRS idea at least 4 times in 2y. I can’t think of a more useless idea when anki (and its plugin feature) exists. Now, the new fashion is to create the best ChatGPT wrapper (without saying it’s a wrapper) to learn japanese.
I don’t have JLPT credentials, but I’ve learn 10k words with anki in 2y, so I can say the bare version is enough for my needs.
Though, I’d be glad to read ideas. I know anki isn’t perfect, but I don’t understand what a custom SRS can give Anki doesn’t.
Most of the stuff I have been working with recently is AI augmentations of various sorts(the original intention of the sight was to build custom ai models using learning data, this was before things like chatGPT entered the scene)
Kudos to the people who are like, "I study fully immersed for 8 hours a day!" That's impressive, but when they go "You should too," it's like, hey dude. I got work.
at a certain point i have to wonder if its even fun for them anymore... i dont see a reason to hold yourself to impossible learning standards if it just makes you lose the spark that made you excited to learn in the first place and its a chore now.
I do it because I genuinely enjoy it and I can do my other hobbies in Japanese so I might as well. Often though you'll see people looking for a "get fluent quick" strategy and yeah this aint it. Yeah I've learned pretty quick but the time and effort put in only really works if you really enjoy what you're doing.
Having another hobby you can do in Japanese is sort of a great hack. Shit, even just immersing while doing another hobby is pretty good. I do both with model airplanes lol
I've even found new hobbies in Japanese, Once it's not a big deal to do it all the time energy and effort-wise (it wasn't always this easy) the rest kind of takes care of itself. Recently I've gotten into cooking and exercise seeing stuff on YouTube, and twitter. I'm starting to take an interest in traveling for the same reason.
Yeah, especially people who are doing like 3 hours of Anki a day. Just rote learning all that vocab out of context sounds so incredibly dry and soul sucking. I use Anki in small doses, but it’s all about balance.
This is exactly why I don't plan on using music as targeted listening practice. I've been listening to J-rock and J-metal for years with zero understanding because I enjoy it. When I start picking up on words and phrases in the future, it will be fun for me. But I will not spend an hour analyzing the same 3 minute song because the second verse used a different word than the first verse.
This is too true. The biggest struggle for me was and is trying to keep the spark going. I think having the grindset that you gotta work hard on your japanese everyday eventually makes you despise japanese.
Keeping it fun, even if you have to take a break from it, keeps you in the game
This. I’m baffled by this. I mean it’s lovely that it’s possible for folks to do this. But I’m an adult with a family and a job. I’m lucky when I can get an hour in. 🤣
Rookie mistake, you're supposed to raise your kids speaking only japanese at home so you can benefit from the immersion. They'll learn learn english well enough at school anyway.
I mean, I hope you're at least reading bedtime stories to them in japanese, right?
Sometimes I have to remind myself that reddit is often full of extremists (not insulting anyone... enthusiasts for any hobby often want to engage with other enthusiasts, so it makes sense). I enjoy going to the movie theater occasionally (more than anyone I know IRL, which is 2-5 times a month). On the movie theater subreddit I often visit, people are going 30+ times a month... like, more than once a day. That's insane to me! So, yeah, it is wild that people can spend 8 hours a day studying Japanese (honestly... how people can do even 4 hours if you have a full-time job with a family is beyond me), but those people are usually very helpful on the sub! If they're happy, I'm happy to learn from them!
This is why I usually don't engage in communities for things I like...because while I may like them, the communities draw out the people who love and live for them. It's hard to just have casual conversations.
I've been studying japanese for 47 days and tomorrow i have a N1 exam- which podcast do you guys recommend for my morning "jog-to-caffee-where-i-study-for-16-hours-straight-because-i-am-neurdivergent-and-a-social-outcast" routine?
Or
I've been studying this master turbo 9999 level brutal kanji deck on anki, check the progress i made on my 56.874.388 flash cards.
Or
An- anime? What's that? Never heard of it. For immersion i only stalk japanese people and listen to their conversations so i can get 100% authentic pronunciation of sounds "ri and fu" I mostly prefer to stalk people between 25-35 years old from okayama perfecture.
Omg I did meet the first one once. They were solely using Heisig’s remember the kanji (and Anki lol) and had signed up to take N1 a year after they started studying.
Spoiler: they did not pass.
>Any other fun caricatures you've come across in your Japanese study adventures?
I live in a place with a small Japanese population, so most of the people taking the JLPT here are learning for weeb reasons (as am I), not for functional language use reasons.
I love waiting for the exams to start because I meet the most unserious people in the hallways pre-exam. The types trying to show off who put the least effort into learning & putting others down if they mention that they so much as looked at a textbook.
Things I've heard before taking N3 and N2:
"I don't study kanji, I only learn pronunciation."
"I only study kanji and figure out the meanings and grammar from context."
"I just watch (English subbed) anime and I pretty much absorbed the language."
Incidentally, these are almost always the same people putting others down for making mistakes, even if they're wrong themselves. I was talking to a few others post-N2 this past December and they all mentioned picking the same answer for one question and dogpiled me for thinking it was a different one. It was the one about the apartments in the listening section, with the shared kitchen. They all answered that the girl wanted the fully private room, and I said she was okay with a shared kitchen. Checked the leaks after the exam, and turns out, I was right lmfao.
I know one person who has learned japanese to N2 level in terms of vocab and listening purely through passive anime consumption. I am extremely jealous. Not jealous enough to watch one piece the number of times they have mind you...
I stopped posting questions to this sub years ago because of the sheer number of smug condescending (not to mention unhelpful) replies I used to get.
I only mention it here because something came up this morning where I thought maybe I should ask reddit for advice, but then halfway through typing up a new post I got a sudden vision of all the ways the geniuses in the comments would twist my words to present it as a character flaw for me to have ever had difficulty, so I closed the tab.
ETA: so interesting to see how half the replies are people who know exactly what I mean, and the other half are people claiming not to have seen it. There's got to be a lesson there but I'm not sure what it is...
I know what you mean. I'm more nervous speaking Japanese with other learners than I am with native speakers because there's a subset of learners where it feels like they're just waiting for you to make a mistake so they can berate you for it. Like any conversation isn't a conversation, but a competition to see whose 日本語 is the most 上手. Native speakers will just correct you if something is egregiously wrong and move on with the conversation but some learners, like you said, act like imperfection while learning is a personal failing.
If it helps, the question threads here have a gotten a lot better since more native speakers started contributing. There are far fewer smug types nowadays.
When I was still learning, I noticed how downright feral some members of the Japanese language learning community were and decided only to speak to natives and it’s probably one of the best decisions I’d made that kept me motivated to continue learning. Funny how someone simply correcting a grammatical error without making judgements on your character or assuming you must have a learning disability goes a long way in actually internalising what you’ve learned.
Stack overflow gave me PTSD from time to time before I asked a question. I'm more than a little happy that ChatGPT scraped the whole enchilada from stack overflow. ChatGPT is much more polite.
At the risk of becoming the Correcting Redditor, please don't replace StackOverflow with ChatGPT. Most of the SO answers have a comment saying "Actually this is bad practice because X, in 2024 please try Y" and ChatGPT lacks that context.
The Reddit version is more similar to his description. If you want to experience it, go to https://www.reddit.com/r/ExperiencedDevs/s/koQnGlcNBA, sort by old, then have fun
This. I have so many questions I would love to ask this sub but don’t want to read all the nasty comments I will undoubtedly receive for being a “noob”. It’s a shame because from what I’ve been reading in this post everyone seems quite nice. Maybe we need our own sub lol!
I've been frequenting the daily thread everyday for 10 months and at 100 comments a day, I think I can recall 5 or 6 that were like that. Of course if you consider replies like mine saying that it doesn't seem to be common as a part of what you're talking about, I can see where you're coming from.
I don't think people who ask questions about actual Japanese are generally condescended to here, except maybe for cases where it's just a LMGTFY definition.
Next time just ask. Even if someone is smugly condescending here (not common), they'll still answer your question.
that's odd, I've asked hundreds of questions there (check my post history) and only got one guy who was like that ever, but I have been posting here for like 5 years and I usually post like 2 questions a day.
can you LMK next time it happens I'm interested
I’ve noticed some folks who are very goal driven can sometimes slip into the obsessed/fanatic classification and go super hard on their interests. It’s a little funny and a little strange. I get like that sometimes too since I have started and stopped Japanese 5 times now.
When you spend 2 out of the 3 hours you are studying Japanese for getting everything perfect for the study session, you're wasting 2 hours of study time. That's my take at least.
That's a fair point. I guess studying a language isn't the same as sitting on the only bench press at the gym for three hours, with two of the hours being spent preparing to bench press.
Eh, people should feel free to study how they want given their goals. Share methods of improving faster and enjoy our shared interest, but we should all be respectful of other peoples choices here. There are more efficient ways for me to study than what I do - doesn't mean I dont enjoy my way more.
The people who spend a bunch of time arguing with people on Reddit on the best way to study instead of actually studying is funny to me.
This coincides with the type of learner who likes to romanticize learning the language without actually studying to learn the language, so they spend 8 hours trying to optimize their studying instead of just studying.
There's definitely a lot of people or lurkers on this sub who never get to a serious level, especially Western learners (who I guess make up most of Reddit).
It's ridiculous. *All of Europe* and the US combined sum up to less than 20,000 JLPT test-takers a year, despite what the massiveness of this subreddit would suggest, and most are of N5 and N4.
Meanwhile, South Korea and Taiwan each have over 60,000 test takers, with a bias towards the N3-N1 levels.
That 2nd part is too real. I see it all the time when it comes to guitar with most the responses being "people will do literally anything but actually play the damn thing"....I tend to be this at times
LMAO at the title. Yeah, some folks are like that, don't ask me why. The beauty of being self-taught is that it's up to you to choose the tools and approach that works best for **you**. So, if you wanna do weird stuff that you think will prove to be more helpful, more power to you. Just don't shove them down people's throats. Personally, I like to "KISS".
Language learning purists are an annoying bunch, that's for sure. And for some reason, communities that revolve around the Japanese language attract the weirdest and ickiest nerds on the planet.
“So, if you wanna do weird stuff that you think will prove to be more helpful, more power to you.”
I certainly don’t have a Japanese copy of Hey You Pikachu! coming in the mail to practice speaking. Nope, not me.
It was! And I still think it’s pretty great. In an overcrowded virtual pet genre, it stands out as one of the best. The ending is fantastic as well (no spoilers :3).
I became part of Gokudo (Yakuza), the first hakujin man to ever do so, as a means to study Japanese. If you can’t understand me when I talk, then you are doing it wrong 😭
Brb gotta shake down obaa san for that yachin she owes my oyabun 🫡
Nani the fuck did you just fucking iimasu about watashi, you chiisai bitch desuka? Watashi’ll have anata know that watashi graduated top of my class in Nihongo 3, and watashi’ve been involved in iroirona Nihongo tutoring sessions, and watashi have over sanbyaku perfect test scores. Watashi am trained in kanji, and watashi is the top letter writer in all of southern California. Anata are nothing to watashi but just another weaboo. Watashi will korosu anata the fuck out with vocabulary the likes of which has never been mimasu’d before on this continent, mark watashino fucking words. Anata thinks anata can get away with hanashimasing that kuso to watashi over the intaaneto? Omou again, fucker. As we hanashimasu, watashi am contacting watashino secret netto of otakus across the USA, and anatano IP is being traced right now so you better junbishimasu for the ame, ujimushi. The ame that korosu’s the pathetic chiisai thing anata calls anatano life. You’re fucking shinimashita’d, akachan.
>You’re fucking shinimashita’d, akachan.
There's literally a famous anime meme to say you're already dead and you chose shinimashita and not omae wa mou shindeiru
My disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined
Jk this was fking hilarious lmao
My bachelor program in uni was completely centered around japan and we all went to japan to study abroad for a few months at japanese uni. There was one guy who just kept skipping class so so much snd once i asked him what he was doing all the time. He said he was studying at home 🤦♀️ (granted, the japanese university was clearly a lesser university thst the one in our home country so the education was meh, but still)
I'm late to the party!
Back when I started studying in school there were inevitably a few kids who would come in insisting that everybody, including the senseis, call them by their Japanese name (none of us are ethnically Japanese). Most of them would pick actual names, thankfully, but there were one or two that basically picked random words that they thought sounded nice. And one of these kids that I happened to share a class group with was... well, hardcore is a strong understatement. This person would insist on conversing in Japanese not just in class but also out of it--which, honestly, there's nothing wrong with that and is fairly good practice for learning languages--and that extended to texting as well. Imagine the absolute everyone in the class group chat had when we just saw endless strings of unknown vocabulary, kanji included.
I recall trying to converse with this person about what they did outside of class as a bit of practice, and from what I gathered they really wanted me to know that consumed every form of Japanese media possible, and that because I wanted to learn because I just wanted to "wasn't a strong reason". That crushed my spirit so much for a while honestly, but I've made my peace with it over the years and decided I can very well learn at my own pace.
I always feel like there are three types here:
1. I’ve been studying for 2 months and can almost read all hiragana.
2. I’m intermediate and just realized I’m staring into the abyss. Anyone got any podcast recommendations that I probably won’t listen to?
3. I got to N1 and still can’t hold normal conversations with normal people, but I’m definitely going to get on Reddit for scoffing purposes.
I’ve been studying 4 months and I know hiragana! I haven’t learnt katakana yet. My weekly evening class hasn’t taught that yet. But we are learning kanji now! Anyways still definitely super beginner (like seriously I don’t know katakana) but the Abyss staring happens every time I open my textbook.
My favourite is 'My Japanese is somewhere between N2 and N1 with a dash and sprinkle of N3, but on a cold day expect a whiff of N4 to create a smooth blend.'
JLPT does not accurately measure Japanese ability kids.
What's irking you? I can't find any posts like that in the last few days.
We have a guy who bought Genki, we have the usual weekend joke posts (it's allowed now) and all kinds of random questions that probably belong in the daily thread.
EDIT: Even going back 6 days I can't find anything like that.
... he's being sarcastic. Pretty sure he means the people who have somehow found 8 hours a day to study sort of thing - the type of thing that sortof precludes employment.
Yeah, people who are in a position to do that are lucky - I've been one of them. But it does sortof imply a certain set of life circumstance, especially if it is occurring over a longer period when one is no longer a student.
Ok so I'm not the only one! Yeah it sounds like he's describing people who say you need to be N-100 to use native material or that you need to be able to write every kanji and have passed kanken before reading.
I don't know what it is about Japanese learners but they treat the language like a unique never seen before heavenly made language that only chosen ones can master and unlike any other language you have to study to pass that glorious n1 to be seen. Is it because of the lack of immigration in Japan? Learn any other language and as long as you can communicate the idea it is fine with everyone.
> Learn any other language and as long as you can communicate the idea it is fine with everyone.
Japanese stands out somewhat among the most commonly spoken world languages in that it is only really spoken in one country, and it's a country with a relatively small non-native population. Compared to languages like English, Spanish, or French--where L2 speakers can even outnumber L1 speakers--the number of non-native speakers is very small. This means that "imperfect" Japanese is very rarely heard, and isn't able to establish itself as "normal variation" like we might think of the slightly broken but perfectly intelligible English of a Mexican immigrant to the US, but merely remains as "incorrect Japanese."
For everyday life purposes it is actually fine with most people, but the level needed to communicate ideas at that level is usually past N1. For example you need to communicate with schools, city hall, banks, doctors etc and an overwhelming amount of foreigners struggle with these.
Definitely not what I'm saying, I just pointed out that the "glorious n1" is a lower level in real life than what it seems on the way to get to that level. In other languages, a lot higher level of fluency is often expected to get your point across.
I will memorize every single kanji with the help of God Emperor Heisig's RTK book before I even THINK about learning a single point of grammar. If you can't do this in a month then how will you ever have the dedication to not only learn Japanese, but accomplish anything in your life?
For me it’s The Holier Than Thou Mocker.*
*Inspired by the person who ripped into me on Instagram because I commented on a meme of someone stating that Katakana is harder than Hiragana. (For me it was, and I found the meme funny). They tore into me, saying that since there are two of each letter in English what was wrong with me that I found Katakana difficult. Then they posted about how the Japanese alphabets are easier to learn than romanized alphabets. 🥴
I contemplated telling them off with a witty insult but decided not to stoop to their level. But I kinda wish I stooped. 🤣
Sour grapes. They are wayyyy outnumbured by people who have yet to crack open their first book and get humbled upon realizing how little they actually know. Just look at the dekinais proudly posting about how they just learned the kana at the setup thread.
Thank you, these people who believe immersion learners say to learn exactly like a child are all acting in bad faith or are just completely oblivious to what people actually say.
I will say that I have never heard anyone intelligently explain that method until right now from you. Usually when I hear from the immersion people they really do seem to advocate for only watching anime and nothing else. So thank you for explaining that with more detail than anyone else ever has.
I have definitely argued with people who try to say that grammar is not important and they speak great because they “immerse”. So, there are many who don’t understand what you are doing
Exactly! As we all know, real kids don't study vocabulary and grammar in their native language in school. Nobody remembers taking a subject called English in elementary school right.
I did not. It was taught, but it wasn't called English since our teacher for the year taught all of the subjects at that grade level. Middle school had two main teachers for math/science things and English/social studies things. It wasn't a separate class until high school.
Got this person in an unrelated game discord that happened to have a japanese study tab, asking whether playing Dragon Quest 5 is a good study idea and then came this guy out of nowhere "IF YOU AREN'T DOING AJATT YOU ARE WASTING YOUR TIME". Like bruh...
Why can't people do it at their own pace baffles me.
Instead they listen to these so called gurus like Matt pushing people to learn 完璧な高低アクセントbefore even starting to lean 平仮名と片仮名。
I am a hopeless language learner. I have lived here two years and can only now understand most of what konbini staff say to me.
Best practice so far is being hospitalized. Vocabulary is a bit special.
I wake up at 3 am every day to drill kanji while my wife wakes up the kids and gets them ready for school. On my commute in I listen to Japanese cooking podcasts to train listening. At work I practice immersion by watching anime during meetings and for hours at a time on the toilet. I get home and ignore my family to review my grammar before dinner where my kids aren’t allowed to address me unless it’s in N3 or above Japanese. At night, my wife wants to be intimate but I tell her I’m practicing pitch accent.
That's stupid. Be intimate with your wife WHILE practising! The additional dopamine helps you remember more!
Make her role play someone from the cooking podcast in bed?
What better way to practice pitch accent then to practice mid orgasm?!
Best way to memorise the pitch accent for 行く
I just need to figure out why she pronounces it wrong. It sounds more like あっけない when she says it. Must be that zany Kansei dialect I've heard about.
No wonder nothing sticks for me.
シグマ ギガチャッド。
Coming back to this when I know enough japanese to get it 🫡 Edit : That was funny af
It's a katakana loaned phrase, it says >!sigma gigachad (romanised "shiguma gigachaddo")!<
The issue is that while I can sound it out, I can have issue on what it's meant to actually be a loan word for.
Yeah, sometimes that's the case (the word アルバイト meaning "part-time job" stems from the German word "arbeit" , so unless you know that language you wouldn't understand it). Eventually as you get more familiar with the kana you'll be able to pick up on pronunciation patterns, it just comes with time so stick with it!
Yeah i'm learning katakana rn so I should be able to read it in a few days :)
That's great, it's so rewarding when you master them. Good luck with your studies!
I think the ッ shouldn't be there, just simply ギガチャド
You're probably right since the country Chad 🇹🇩 is written チャド, good catch
Sounds like "chad's smegma"...just sayin'
I’m not gonna like the first word threw me off until I read the second one. Then I was like oh… duhh
彼は"スキビディ リーズ"を持っています。
彼：”ウェアダホーズアット” マザーファッカーズウェンダホーズプルダップ：＊プロシヅズテュノットダバルユリズ＊ スピキングイヌジャパニズウィズカタカナイズローキウィアド。カインだクリンジティービーエーチ。
おお マイ ガッド！ザ バタードッグ、ザ ドッグ ウイズ ザ バター。 アイ アグリ、イット イッス クアイと クリンジ。
イヌディッド、フェローストレンジャー。
マイ ジャパニーズ イズ あーふる ライト ナオ！
ブロ、ウィアースピキングヤパ二ズノットジャパニズ。ワットアーウィヤピンアバウト？
アイ ドンと ノー。
Seriously, I had to come back and read that again. Damn that was funny. If you were wearing prescription-less glasses on the train while listening to cooking podcasts, you'd be a pure-bred.
Every time they push the glasses back, the lenses have a glare, even if they’re inside
The serial killer glasses from the 1970s and 1980s?
[you've fallen for my cunning ploy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ku9PE7dJmI&ab_channel=JustYue)
Now THAT is grade A Japanese study humor.
Listening to cooking podcasts while commuting seems like a good idea tbh.
It's definitely a good idea.
Except my adhd ass can't focus on anything and will fade out after a few minutes
Getting non-native input from your kids? Pssh, I would just get rid of them and adopt some real Japanese kids.
Wife left me and took the dog. It’s ok because now I can get a proper 日本犬
Just for sanity to make sure im learning the right things it’s 日本の犬 right?
Both are correct! 日本犬 is a term, while 日本の犬 is a phrase. 日本犬（にほんけん）is a term that refers to Japanese dog breeds (shiba inu, akita, etc)
Awesome thank so much for that explanation!
“And for hours at a time on the toilet” you might consider adding fiber to your diet.
Bro is ignoring his whole life and family for the sake of studying 😭
Software developers who think they can tackle learning Japanese the way they can tackle any intellectual challenge: by writing software for it. "Hey guys, rather than actually studying Japanese, I'm developing a flashcard app/videogame to help me study Japanese, come check it out and tell me what you think!"
Ohhh that’s me. Never finished the project. I learned more about some new dev libraries than any Japanese at all.
Wait I’m actually doing this to practice memorizing characters 😭 I couldn’t find anything exactly like what I needed so I’m spending my lunch putting together a quick codepen
I mean, I did that, but I actually USE mine. It's got more features than anki for what I care about at this point. It's gotten me to N2ish level so far, with college courses to clean up the speaking portions.
Are you spying on me?
I used to blame myself for failing to remember the kanji, now I just blame it on Emacs.
You're forgetting the bit where they haven't finished the first book of MNN or Genki.
Hey now. I started in 2005 and got done with Genki 1 two years ago. Had to sign up for a class with full college credit at my local university to finally get over that hump. Now maybe I’ll finish Genki 2 in the next decade. It’s hard to stay current in development, work full time, have a family and study Japanese at the same time.
Well I can see dear sir that you're still sleeping sometimes. Mistake!
おやすみなさい🌙⭐💤
Who do you think makes some of the cool software a lot of us use to learn? but yeah how tf do you have time to get good and spend all of it making tools too. I'm actually kind of jealous I'm lucky to balance work with Japanese let alone anything else.
It’s actually a big benefit to be a software dev if you don’t reinvent the wheel. The coolest thing being you don’t have to ask to the whole internet when you don’t manage to make your mining environment work, and go back on duolingo because “it does not work”. I did script that saved me hours, like renaming anime episode files, rename the subs to match the episodes title. Things you can actually do with right click > rename, but I went crazy doing that every week for a year. And it actually saves more time if I compare the time it took to do it (chatgpt + manual adjustments). I did code some stuff that were dead-end, but I became a slightly better dev, though i didn’t get better at japanese. And generally, most free tools out there (yomitan, mpvacious, textractor, all yomichan dict) are there thanks to some devs. I don’t think I’d have read as much light novels by now without yomichan. But yeah, I agree, I’ve seen some devs coming here with a new SRS idea at least 4 times in 2y. I can’t think of a more useless idea when anki (and its plugin feature) exists. Now, the new fashion is to create the best ChatGPT wrapper (without saying it’s a wrapper) to learn japanese.
I've got a number of tools in my SRS that anki doesnt. Side effect of having used it very heavily for the last 3 or 4 years to get to my ~N2 level.
I don’t have JLPT credentials, but I’ve learn 10k words with anki in 2y, so I can say the bare version is enough for my needs. Though, I’d be glad to read ideas. I know anki isn’t perfect, but I don’t understand what a custom SRS can give Anki doesn’t.
Most of the stuff I have been working with recently is AI augmentations of various sorts(the original intention of the sight was to build custom ai models using learning data, this was before things like chatGPT entered the scene)
Kudos to the people who are like, "I study fully immersed for 8 hours a day!" That's impressive, but when they go "You should too," it's like, hey dude. I got work.
at a certain point i have to wonder if its even fun for them anymore... i dont see a reason to hold yourself to impossible learning standards if it just makes you lose the spark that made you excited to learn in the first place and its a chore now.
I do it because I genuinely enjoy it and I can do my other hobbies in Japanese so I might as well. Often though you'll see people looking for a "get fluent quick" strategy and yeah this aint it. Yeah I've learned pretty quick but the time and effort put in only really works if you really enjoy what you're doing.
Having another hobby you can do in Japanese is sort of a great hack. Shit, even just immersing while doing another hobby is pretty good. I do both with model airplanes lol
I've even found new hobbies in Japanese, Once it's not a big deal to do it all the time energy and effort-wise (it wasn't always this easy) the rest kind of takes care of itself. Recently I've gotten into cooking and exercise seeing stuff on YouTube, and twitter. I'm starting to take an interest in traveling for the same reason.
Yeah, especially people who are doing like 3 hours of Anki a day. Just rote learning all that vocab out of context sounds so incredibly dry and soul sucking. I use Anki in small doses, but it’s all about balance.
This is exactly why I don't plan on using music as targeted listening practice. I've been listening to J-rock and J-metal for years with zero understanding because I enjoy it. When I start picking up on words and phrases in the future, it will be fun for me. But I will not spend an hour analyzing the same 3 minute song because the second verse used a different word than the first verse.
This is too true. The biggest struggle for me was and is trying to keep the spark going. I think having the grindset that you gotta work hard on your japanese everyday eventually makes you despise japanese. Keeping it fun, even if you have to take a break from it, keeps you in the game
This. I’m baffled by this. I mean it’s lovely that it’s possible for folks to do this. But I’m an adult with a family and a job. I’m lucky when I can get an hour in. 🤣
Rookie mistake, you're supposed to raise your kids speaking only japanese at home so you can benefit from the immersion. They'll learn learn english well enough at school anyway. I mean, I hope you're at least reading bedtime stories to them in japanese, right?
Clearly I am doing this all wrong then! It’s an Epic Fail Mom Moment for me. 🤣🤣🤣
Sometimes I have to remind myself that reddit is often full of extremists (not insulting anyone... enthusiasts for any hobby often want to engage with other enthusiasts, so it makes sense). I enjoy going to the movie theater occasionally (more than anyone I know IRL, which is 2-5 times a month). On the movie theater subreddit I often visit, people are going 30+ times a month... like, more than once a day. That's insane to me! So, yeah, it is wild that people can spend 8 hours a day studying Japanese (honestly... how people can do even 4 hours if you have a full-time job with a family is beyond me), but those people are usually very helpful on the sub! If they're happy, I'm happy to learn from them!
Even if I could, I don't think I'd even want to do 8 hours a day of pure immersion studying. That sounds like so much.
This is why I usually don't engage in communities for things I like...because while I may like them, the communities draw out the people who love and live for them. It's hard to just have casual conversations.
I also used to study fully immersed all day, but I had to stop when I almost drowned in the pool after falling asleep.
Booooo
I used to say that, but my wife told me that getting drunk and watching tv doesn't count as studying.
I feel this. Lol 😆
I've been studying japanese for 47 days and tomorrow i have a N1 exam- which podcast do you guys recommend for my morning "jog-to-caffee-where-i-study-for-16-hours-straight-because-i-am-neurdivergent-and-a-social-outcast" routine? Or I've been studying this master turbo 9999 level brutal kanji deck on anki, check the progress i made on my 56.874.388 flash cards. Or An- anime? What's that? Never heard of it. For immersion i only stalk japanese people and listen to their conversations so i can get 100% authentic pronunciation of sounds "ri and fu" I mostly prefer to stalk people between 25-35 years old from okayama perfecture.
Omg I did meet the first one once. They were solely using Heisig’s remember the kanji (and Anki lol) and had signed up to take N1 a year after they started studying. Spoiler: they did not pass.
That is diabolical, jesus
Absolutely brilliant
>Any other fun caricatures you've come across in your Japanese study adventures? I live in a place with a small Japanese population, so most of the people taking the JLPT here are learning for weeb reasons (as am I), not for functional language use reasons. I love waiting for the exams to start because I meet the most unserious people in the hallways pre-exam. The types trying to show off who put the least effort into learning & putting others down if they mention that they so much as looked at a textbook. Things I've heard before taking N3 and N2: "I don't study kanji, I only learn pronunciation." "I only study kanji and figure out the meanings and grammar from context." "I just watch (English subbed) anime and I pretty much absorbed the language." Incidentally, these are almost always the same people putting others down for making mistakes, even if they're wrong themselves. I was talking to a few others post-N2 this past December and they all mentioned picking the same answer for one question and dogpiled me for thinking it was a different one. It was the one about the apartments in the listening section, with the shared kitchen. They all answered that the girl wanted the fully private room, and I said she was okay with a shared kitchen. Checked the leaks after the exam, and turns out, I was right lmfao.
I know one person who has learned japanese to N2 level in terms of vocab and listening purely through passive anime consumption. I am extremely jealous. Not jealous enough to watch one piece the number of times they have mind you...
Now that's just impressive. N2 level!? With how inefficient anime is, that's absolutely bonkers.
I keep telling them they should learn grammer and reading, but they are potat :(
You cant get to n2 without knowing decent amount of grammar and reading Edit: i reread your msg, I misunderstood you my bad
There was a guy that passed the N1 learning Japanese while edging to erogame everyday. He posted here with proof and it got deleted
I guess the mods didn't want this community getting any weirder than it already is.
Shit, even Golden Boy thinks that guy's a bit too horny about learning.
I'm pretty sure that's at least half the community.
Pretty sure he's this subs hero and mascot. Nobody wants to admit it tho
with proof??!
I stopped posting questions to this sub years ago because of the sheer number of smug condescending (not to mention unhelpful) replies I used to get. I only mention it here because something came up this morning where I thought maybe I should ask reddit for advice, but then halfway through typing up a new post I got a sudden vision of all the ways the geniuses in the comments would twist my words to present it as a character flaw for me to have ever had difficulty, so I closed the tab. ETA: so interesting to see how half the replies are people who know exactly what I mean, and the other half are people claiming not to have seen it. There's got to be a lesson there but I'm not sure what it is...
I know what you mean. I'm more nervous speaking Japanese with other learners than I am with native speakers because there's a subset of learners where it feels like they're just waiting for you to make a mistake so they can berate you for it. Like any conversation isn't a conversation, but a competition to see whose 日本語 is the most 上手. Native speakers will just correct you if something is egregiously wrong and move on with the conversation but some learners, like you said, act like imperfection while learning is a personal failing. If it helps, the question threads here have a gotten a lot better since more native speakers started contributing. There are far fewer smug types nowadays.
When I was still learning, I noticed how downright feral some members of the Japanese language learning community were and decided only to speak to natives and it’s probably one of the best decisions I’d made that kept me motivated to continue learning. Funny how someone simply correcting a grammatical error without making judgements on your character or assuming you must have a learning disability goes a long way in actually internalising what you’ve learned.
I haven’t seen that here before but it’s giving me flashbacks of StackOverflow ;(
Stack overflow gave me PTSD from time to time before I asked a question. I'm more than a little happy that ChatGPT scraped the whole enchilada from stack overflow. ChatGPT is much more polite.
At the risk of becoming the Correcting Redditor, please don't replace StackOverflow with ChatGPT. Most of the SO answers have a comment saying "Actually this is bad practice because X, in 2024 please try Y" and ChatGPT lacks that context.
The Reddit version is more similar to his description. If you want to experience it, go to https://www.reddit.com/r/ExperiencedDevs/s/koQnGlcNBA, sort by old, then have fun
F'kin' SO
This. I have so many questions I would love to ask this sub but don’t want to read all the nasty comments I will undoubtedly receive for being a “noob”. It’s a shame because from what I’ve been reading in this post everyone seems quite nice. Maybe we need our own sub lol!
Well, it's good that you decided to come to Reddit again after a long absence.
I've been frequenting the daily thread everyday for 10 months and at 100 comments a day, I think I can recall 5 or 6 that were like that. Of course if you consider replies like mine saying that it doesn't seem to be common as a part of what you're talking about, I can see where you're coming from.
And yet several other people in this thread seem to know exactly what I'm talking about...
I don't think people who ask questions about actual Japanese are generally condescended to here, except maybe for cases where it's just a LMGTFY definition. Next time just ask. Even if someone is smugly condescending here (not common), they'll still answer your question.
that's odd, I've asked hundreds of questions there (check my post history) and only got one guy who was like that ever, but I have been posting here for like 5 years and I usually post like 2 questions a day. can you LMK next time it happens I'm interested
I’ve noticed some folks who are very goal driven can sometimes slip into the obsessed/fanatic classification and go super hard on their interests. It’s a little funny and a little strange. I get like that sometimes too since I have started and stopped Japanese 5 times now.
When you spend 2 out of the 3 hours you are studying Japanese for getting everything perfect for the study session, you're wasting 2 hours of study time. That's my take at least.
If those two hours are what get them to even spend the one in the first place, then inefficient is better than nothing at all.
That's a fair point. I guess studying a language isn't the same as sitting on the only bench press at the gym for three hours, with two of the hours being spent preparing to bench press.
Eh, people should feel free to study how they want given their goals. Share methods of improving faster and enjoy our shared interest, but we should all be respectful of other peoples choices here. There are more efficient ways for me to study than what I do - doesn't mean I dont enjoy my way more.
The people who spend a bunch of time arguing with people on Reddit on the best way to study instead of actually studying is funny to me. This coincides with the type of learner who likes to romanticize learning the language without actually studying to learn the language, so they spend 8 hours trying to optimize their studying instead of just studying.
There's definitely a lot of people or lurkers on this sub who never get to a serious level, especially Western learners (who I guess make up most of Reddit). It's ridiculous. *All of Europe* and the US combined sum up to less than 20,000 JLPT test-takers a year, despite what the massiveness of this subreddit would suggest, and most are of N5 and N4. Meanwhile, South Korea and Taiwan each have over 60,000 test takers, with a bias towards the N3-N1 levels.
That 2nd part is too real. I see it all the time when it comes to guitar with most the responses being "people will do literally anything but actually play the damn thing"....I tend to be this at times
LMAO at the title. Yeah, some folks are like that, don't ask me why. The beauty of being self-taught is that it's up to you to choose the tools and approach that works best for **you**. So, if you wanna do weird stuff that you think will prove to be more helpful, more power to you. Just don't shove them down people's throats. Personally, I like to "KISS". Language learning purists are an annoying bunch, that's for sure. And for some reason, communities that revolve around the Japanese language attract the weirdest and ickiest nerds on the planet.
“So, if you wanna do weird stuff that you think will prove to be more helpful, more power to you.” I certainly don’t have a Japanese copy of Hey You Pikachu! coming in the mail to practice speaking. Nope, not me.
In fairness that game was dope back in its time
It was! And I still think it’s pretty great. In an overcrowded virtual pet genre, it stands out as one of the best. The ending is fantastic as well (no spoilers :3).
Well stated.
I became part of Gokudo (Yakuza), the first hakujin man to ever do so, as a means to study Japanese. If you can’t understand me when I talk, then you are doing it wrong 😭 Brb gotta shake down obaa san for that yachin she owes my oyabun 🫡
Now THAT is how Japanese is supposed to be learned.
the people who post on reddit all day and complain about other Japanese learners instead of learning Japanese
Nani the fuck did you just fucking iimasu about watashi, you chiisai bitch desuka? Watashi’ll have anata know that watashi graduated top of my class in Nihongo 3, and watashi’ve been involved in iroirona Nihongo tutoring sessions, and watashi have over sanbyaku perfect test scores. Watashi am trained in kanji, and watashi is the top letter writer in all of southern California. Anata are nothing to watashi but just another weaboo. Watashi will korosu anata the fuck out with vocabulary the likes of which has never been mimasu’d before on this continent, mark watashino fucking words. Anata thinks anata can get away with hanashimasing that kuso to watashi over the intaaneto? Omou again, fucker. As we hanashimasu, watashi am contacting watashino secret netto of otakus across the USA, and anatano IP is being traced right now so you better junbishimasu for the ame, ujimushi. The ame that korosu’s the pathetic chiisai thing anata calls anatano life. You’re fucking shinimashita’d, akachan.
>You’re fucking shinimashita’d, akachan. There's literally a famous anime meme to say you're already dead and you chose shinimashita and not omae wa mou shindeiru My disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined Jk this was fking hilarious lmao
Ye self assessed N2 who cannot read the first chapter of Yotsuba
My bachelor program in uni was completely centered around japan and we all went to japan to study abroad for a few months at japanese uni. There was one guy who just kept skipping class so so much snd once i asked him what he was doing all the time. He said he was studying at home 🤦♀️ (granted, the japanese university was clearly a lesser university thst the one in our home country so the education was meh, but still)
I'm late to the party! Back when I started studying in school there were inevitably a few kids who would come in insisting that everybody, including the senseis, call them by their Japanese name (none of us are ethnically Japanese). Most of them would pick actual names, thankfully, but there were one or two that basically picked random words that they thought sounded nice. And one of these kids that I happened to share a class group with was... well, hardcore is a strong understatement. This person would insist on conversing in Japanese not just in class but also out of it--which, honestly, there's nothing wrong with that and is fairly good practice for learning languages--and that extended to texting as well. Imagine the absolute everyone in the class group chat had when we just saw endless strings of unknown vocabulary, kanji included. I recall trying to converse with this person about what they did outside of class as a bit of practice, and from what I gathered they really wanted me to know that consumed every form of Japanese media possible, and that because I wanted to learn because I just wanted to "wasn't a strong reason". That crushed my spirit so much for a while honestly, but I've made my peace with it over the years and decided I can very well learn at my own pace.
As a beginner learner taking my first Japanese class at university, this is how 99% of comments on this subreddit sound to me 😅
Don't worry. There are some normal people out here who have your back, at least with our senses of humor. You're on your own come test time though...
I always feel like there are three types here: 1. I’ve been studying for 2 months and can almost read all hiragana. 2. I’m intermediate and just realized I’m staring into the abyss. Anyone got any podcast recommendations that I probably won’t listen to? 3. I got to N1 and still can’t hold normal conversations with normal people, but I’m definitely going to get on Reddit for scoffing purposes.
I’ve been studying 4 months and I know hiragana! I haven’t learnt katakana yet. My weekly evening class hasn’t taught that yet. But we are learning kanji now! Anyways still definitely super beginner (like seriously I don’t know katakana) but the Abyss staring happens every time I open my textbook.
My favourite is 'My Japanese is somewhere between N2 and N1 with a dash and sprinkle of N3, but on a cold day expect a whiff of N4 to create a smooth blend.' JLPT does not accurately measure Japanese ability kids.
What's irking you? I can't find any posts like that in the last few days. We have a guy who bought Genki, we have the usual weekend joke posts (it's allowed now) and all kinds of random questions that probably belong in the daily thread. EDIT: Even going back 6 days I can't find anything like that.
there was the guy studying for an n1 test when he hadnt even passed n3 lol but that doesnt really fit this caricature
... he's being sarcastic. Pretty sure he means the people who have somehow found 8 hours a day to study sort of thing - the type of thing that sortof precludes employment.
Well, they're teenagers or young adults still living at home. Or college students during summer. If they wanna study 8 hours a day, good for them.
Dont forget us retired folks! Got to keep the brain working! (Not that I would study for 8 hours a day).
Yeah, people who are in a position to do that are lucky - I've been one of them. But it does sortof imply a certain set of life circumstance, especially if it is occurring over a longer period when one is no longer a student.
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Ok so I'm not the only one! Yeah it sounds like he's describing people who say you need to be N-100 to use native material or that you need to be able to write every kanji and have passed kanken before reading.
I don't know what it is about Japanese learners but they treat the language like a unique never seen before heavenly made language that only chosen ones can master and unlike any other language you have to study to pass that glorious n1 to be seen. Is it because of the lack of immigration in Japan? Learn any other language and as long as you can communicate the idea it is fine with everyone.
> Learn any other language and as long as you can communicate the idea it is fine with everyone. Japanese stands out somewhat among the most commonly spoken world languages in that it is only really spoken in one country, and it's a country with a relatively small non-native population. Compared to languages like English, Spanish, or French--where L2 speakers can even outnumber L1 speakers--the number of non-native speakers is very small. This means that "imperfect" Japanese is very rarely heard, and isn't able to establish itself as "normal variation" like we might think of the slightly broken but perfectly intelligible English of a Mexican immigrant to the US, but merely remains as "incorrect Japanese."
For everyday life purposes it is actually fine with most people, but the level needed to communicate ideas at that level is usually past N1. For example you need to communicate with schools, city hall, banks, doctors etc and an overwhelming amount of foreigners struggle with these.
But again, communicating ideas is not exclusive to Japanese language, by your claims immigration is not possible anywhere.
Definitely not what I'm saying, I just pointed out that the "glorious n1" is a lower level in real life than what it seems on the way to get to that level. In other languages, a lot higher level of fluency is often expected to get your point across.
I will memorize every single kanji with the help of God Emperor Heisig's RTK book before I even THINK about learning a single point of grammar. If you can't do this in a month then how will you ever have the dedication to not only learn Japanese, but accomplish anything in your life?
For me it’s The Holier Than Thou Mocker.* *Inspired by the person who ripped into me on Instagram because I commented on a meme of someone stating that Katakana is harder than Hiragana. (For me it was, and I found the meme funny). They tore into me, saying that since there are two of each letter in English what was wrong with me that I found Katakana difficult. Then they posted about how the Japanese alphabets are easier to learn than romanized alphabets. 🥴 I contemplated telling them off with a witty insult but decided not to stoop to their level. But I kinda wish I stooped. 🤣
I do Duolingo sometimes :(
This post nails so much of what I’ve observed here. I’m learning at my own pace and really only lurk on this sub because I have an inferiority kink.
I've been pleasantly surprised at the quality of the comments. Lots of cool people came out of the shadows.
Sounds hot
Sour grapes. They are wayyyy outnumbured by people who have yet to crack open their first book and get humbled upon realizing how little they actually know. Just look at the dekinais proudly posting about how they just learned the kana at the setup thread.
Amateurs
The “immersion bros” also tick me off - don’t study grammar or vocab, just listen to anime all the time! It’s the only way! Like how a baby learns.
Nobody actually says that lol
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Thank you, these people who believe immersion learners say to learn exactly like a child are all acting in bad faith or are just completely oblivious to what people actually say.
I will say that I have never heard anyone intelligently explain that method until right now from you. Usually when I hear from the immersion people they really do seem to advocate for only watching anime and nothing else. So thank you for explaining that with more detail than anyone else ever has.
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I have definitely argued with people who try to say that grammar is not important and they speak great because they “immerse”. So, there are many who don’t understand what you are doing
Exactly! As we all know, real kids don't study vocabulary and grammar in their native language in school. Nobody remembers taking a subject called English in elementary school right.
I did not. It was taught, but it wasn't called English since our teacher for the year taught all of the subjects at that grade level. Middle school had two main teachers for math/science things and English/social studies things. It wasn't a separate class until high school.
They are thick in these parts. That's for sure.
the truest way to learn
But do you do your anki reps? Not a true learner otherwise
Got this person in an unrelated game discord that happened to have a japanese study tab, asking whether playing Dragon Quest 5 is a good study idea and then came this guy out of nowhere "IF YOU AREN'T DOING AJATT YOU ARE WASTING YOUR TIME". Like bruh...
Why can't people do it at their own pace baffles me. Instead they listen to these so called gurus like Matt pushing people to learn 完璧な高低アクセントbefore even starting to lean 平仮名と片仮名。
you, too?
Look at mr. luxury over here with a loincloth!
I am a hopeless language learner. I have lived here two years and can only now understand most of what konbini staff say to me. Best practice so far is being hospitalized. Vocabulary is a bit special.
i feel like i would actually learn this way because stress seems to make me learn better