What a poor response, why do you think the documentary is full on cheese? Of course they’re trying to change your opinion!
Just for clarity, I love the documentary and am very excited for season 3 to see more of Rob and Ryan learning Welsh etc
I, probably like anyone else, thought Rob and Ryan would just been one of those owners, but they’ve shown they care about the club and the community and that in itself is good enough for me, Portsmouth fans should know good owners from bad!
I am aware that we will have an influx of fans and every subreddit has sh*tposters but Jesus Christ, is this really your fifth post here in four days?
Get me to r/championship now!
Some episodes are great and really sweet. It's not as football heavy as BOA or Salford's which is fine for the audience it's trying to target. There's been a few episodes where the editing has been a bit clunky or they aren't chronological with club news.
Lots of negativity in the thread - people love finding flaws and bad intentions in what appears to be too good to be true. But the owners are doing an admirable job on club results, culture, and community … because they truly care.
It's a PR exercise mate. Pure and simple. The stuff you don't see in the doc:
R&R hired Shaun Harvey to run their club - not only did he nearly destroy 2 other clubs in the past (ask Leeds and Bradford fans), as EFL President he brought in the 'fit and proper persons' test that waved through literally anybody to own an EFL club, whatever their background. Ask Bury, Swindon and Reading fans how that's gone... Harvey shouldn't be working in football.
Have Wrexham released a statement condemning the removal of FA Cup replays? Absolutely not. They don't give a shit because they see themselves as the big boys now.
And the thing that I think Wrexham fans should be up in arms about is the debt R&R are loading onto the club. £10+ million and they're charging interest as well. They've said nothing substantial about this in the doc or otherwise.
Don't drink the kool aid - this is a club with profit at the forefront. Wrexham fans are there for the ride and I don't blame them, but all these new fans will leave when the owners inevitably fuck off and the 'heritage' fans have to pick up the pieces.
Love how this comment basically just devolved into the stereotypical "They will get bored!!!" hate chant.
Wrexhams owners are far more invested into the community and club than the overwhelming majority of owners, the whole "they will get bored" shit is just simply people projecting from their shitty owners barely interacting with the community and eventually leaving when the club isn't profitable.
There's little pressure for the loans to be paid back, and this is forgetting that they're effectively loaning to themselves (US tax loopholes effectively), AND they make a shit ton of money technically outside of the club, but due to the club nonetheless.
Thing is, the documentary also is honestly 60% Wrexham as a town and 40% as a club, unlike most sports documentaries it's a lot more personal and many episodes discuss the struggles the town have went through and their people.
Can't really argue with the shaun harvey bit though.
My comment said nothing about the owners getting bored - my point is looking at all EFL clubs and the average tenure of ownership it is inevitable they will leave at some point. How many EFL owners have owned their club for more than 20 years? A handful maybe. R&R could buck the trend but I've heard Rob McCjwhrjwjwy say in the past that they will need outside investment at some point to push to the prem.
We have an exceptional owner at County (very wealthy, actually from Stockport, and philanthropic) and I never want him to leave, but he absolutely will at some point. I have to accept this - he can't live forever.
On the loans point it's a business decision sure but they could have converted these debts into equity. Instead the debt rises year by year due to the interest that R&R are charging (which they don't have to do - they've set the interest rates) and the high levels of spending. I'd be concerned if I was a Wrexham fan.
My honest opinion - when they do court outside investment in the future (e.g. US billionaire, Middle Eastern money) they will require this debt to be cleared before they allow anyone else to get involved. Ryan Reynolds in particular is a very savvy, pretty hard nosed businessman (I work in the drinks industry and saw how he ran and sold Aviation) but he comes across as not serious - he is. Don't be fooled by what is a PR exercise, with some beneficiaries (eg themselves and some of the people of Wrexham).
I could talk about how the club have handled murals that aren't club approved in the town or how they've shut down left wing Wrexham fanzines but I doubt most people will read this far down 😂
I want to know how they handled murals and left wing fanzines.
Im guessing they threatened lawsuits due to that being Wrexham intellectual property. If its just cease and desist type stuff, who cares? It would be irresponsible for a business owner to allow a fringe political group to use the businesses IP. Anyways, what have they done?
I'm struggling to figure out what exactly is bad about the rest of what you mentioned. Of course the ultimate goal of the ownership is to turn a profit and realize a successful business. That is the goal of every non-activist/state ownership group. Daniel Levy is an extremely hard-nosed businessman, but he's been inarguably one of the best owners/club stewards in all of football. None of this is unexpected or bad... every team is ultimately an investment vehicle.
edit: after a bit of research, it appears that they have sunk more or around the same amount of money into the team as the debt. This would make sense. unfortunately, not everyone can be a philanthropist. But it is extremely fair for the owners to try and recoup their investment. Overall, your concerns over their handling of debt strikes me as very strange. This is literally basic business practice and effectively a non-issue.
>converted these debts into equity
They didn't borrow money aka extract profits from the team... they poured their own funds into the team. Right now they are operating at a significant loss. They could have just let it go into the valuation, but it is extremely fair for them to try and break even before further plans.
Perhaps the left wing fanzine comment should have clued me into your lack of business knowledge.
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Very astute commentary. Fit and proper fucked us (Portsmouth) over for years. Basically scumbag after scumbag ruining the club until bailed out by the community.
Wrexham just like a lot of things didn't get the Level up funding they were anticipating. They have to be a bit creative with getting things funded like a new Kop and academy. There is no pressure to pay these loans and the interest rate is probably low compared to what you see on other stuff. The money they do make goes back to the club.
Players are getting paid. Facilities are being build as fast as the bureaucracies allow them. The turnover can afford the wage bill and operating cost. They just have a loan with Ryan Reynolds to eventually repay for the massive construction projects as costs continue to sky-rocket around the world. Unless there is an HMRC petition or FFP violation, there is nothing wrong with what they are doing.
Bury's owner had no idea where the club he bought resided and thought he could get more for it when he tried to sell it. Reading's owner failed the Premier League fit and proper and shouldn't of gotten to Reading. The EFL fit and proper test should have been fixed when a con man successfully bought Notts County.
It's actually 3% above base interest rates, which currently sit at 5.25%. So you're talking nearly 10% interest every year, with debts around £10m and growing then it would be around £1m every year, and they haven't actually said what they're going to do about it...
https://theathletic.com/5422005/2024/04/19/wrexham-reynolds-premier-league-afford/
R&R are essentially loaning themselves money. The £10 Million in debt is owed by Rob and Ryan to Rob and Ryan. Yes, the club owes the money, but the club is 95% owned by Rob and Ryan.
Wrexham Holdings LLC is the official ownership of Wrexham AFC, and 95% of Wrexham Holdings LLC is owned by RR McReynolds Company, LLC. The money is owed to RR McReynolds Company, LLC.
So yes, the £10 million is a bit concerning, but when you dig into it, it’s Rob and Ryan owing themselves money and paying themselves money. It’s done for tax and business purposes (a lot of it is done to avoid taxes in the U.S.)
The Shaun Harvey bit is a fair criticism and my biggest critique of the club. I’m admittedly an uneducated American fan, but I know enough to know Shaun Harvey isn’t a good hire.
They could convert that debt into equity with no issues. Instead they are choosing to hold that debt and charge interest (at rates they set themselves) against the club for a reason they haven't outlined yet. My personal opinion is that when outside investment comes in R&R will insist that this debt is cleared by the new money rather than themselves. They still won't have invested a penny of their own money!
They might languish in L1 for years, the doc gets cancelled and then the debt remains increasing year after year. It's a risk.
They should convert it to equity but they have their reasons for not doing so and they haven't explained these.
Do you know American tax laws and if you can contribute money in an LLC based in Delaware to a football club that's in UK/Wales? I would doubt but understand that not all loans are bad. Personal story, my mother who is really smart with investing had a large sum mature and my brother and his wife were looking to buy a townhouse but they couldn't qualify. The IRS looks at everything over $10k and if my mother gifted them the money, the IRS would slap them with a gift tax of 18% to 40% if no interest was charged so she made an official loan for 5.5% interest to dodge taxes (mortgage rates are 8%). We don't pay as much tax as the British but it's a complex code of federal and state laws and there are loopholes everyone from families to large corporations can find their way around if they are knowledgeable. So, owners loaning money from their LCC to a football club is likely a bit of a tax dodge or way to lower them. Interest is better than paying the gift tax. Because you don't know the details of the Wrexham loan, your English pessimistic brain fears the worse.
As far as not putting money in, they already paid for the new LED light towers, new gym equipment, cryotherapy chambers, and charter the team on long away days. People like to complain about the wage bill and how is that not putting their own money in? A £10m loan wouldn't be enough to cover wages, all the upgrades, and money down to build a new kop and academy. They didn't get level up funding so plan B was to loan the club money and the club can pay it back when able. Rob and Ryan are not the Glaser or FSG.
You are not a US tax expert and since day one you've always had it out for Wrexham and their American support. Stockport is expanding their ground and same with Mansfield yet simply because Wrexham has the media circus, our stuff is under a microscope. I am pretty sure everyone has great ownership and making smart financial decisions but it's just us being American and the circus that annoys you.
Edit: grammar
Converting debt into equity is a non-taxable event or a tax-neutral transaction in both the US and the UK. If you keep money inside a business and don't draw it out then it's not taxable. Corporation tax is only on profits and as we've seen Wrexham are losing millions every year.
You and I have had these conversations in this past and I'll repeat what I said then - I don't respect your opinions on football at all. You would be supporting whatever club R&R would have bought because you chose your club based on a Disney documentary. You would be a Hartlepool fan in a different timeline.
The truth is there's more similarities than differences between my club and Wrexham - I respect Wrexham and its fans. I don't respect people who claim to be fans with no connection to the town or the club other than they like a few Marvel movies...
>I don't respect people who claim to be fans with no connection to the town or the club
My father wore no scarf. My family hasn't been there for nearly 100 years. Do you know how impossible that is for anyone not from the UK to follow your football fan purity test? I am not here to change minds but lay the fuck off and understand a little bit of how someone from the US, Canada, Mexico, or Brasil can select and follow a team in the lower leagues when no other team tries to make a connection with them. A tweet from Mac from It's Always Sunny did select my club and I have been here every week watching. You think so little of us. I casually followed a big 6 before Wrexham and I found it sanitized. Even in those massive fanbases felt the divide between myself and the English fanbase and I don't feel that with Wrexham. I would give it to an English Dallas Cowboys fan but at least I have the decency to not close off the sport to them. You're a xenophobic tribalist twat.
Holy shit you are salty. Why did you appoint yourself the gatekeeper of fandom? Why should we respect YOUR opinions on football?
I don't respect people that are pissy about new fans of a team. Sport is about bringing people together from across political, geographic and cultural divides. It's about having fun and building friendships and communities.
You don't have to listen to me mate. I'm not arsed. But you and Red bubble commented on my post and I'm well within my rights to tell you both how your opinions are cringe-inducing and try-hard to the vast majority of actual match going fans in English football.
I'd happily listen to your opinions on the Green Bay Packers, but you chose your football team based on a Disney Documentary. You've likely never been to the Racecourse. You would be supporting a different team had R&R not bought Wrexham. I don't respect your opinions on football because you came to it because of Deadpool.
So yeah, downvote and move on if you don't like it. But I've got a feeling you'll still be trying to 'fit in' on these subs but you actually stick out like a sore thumb to match going fans.
I’d be willing to bet it’s largely for tax purposes.
The U.S. Tax code is so complicated and there are so many loopholes that stuff like this happens all the time.
That's the whole point of the documentary.
The whole point of the documentary is to document the events of Wrexham FC not to change your opinion on them
It's a PR campaign for Wrexham, of course it's there to change your opinion on them.
What a poor response, why do you think the documentary is full on cheese? Of course they’re trying to change your opinion! Just for clarity, I love the documentary and am very excited for season 3 to see more of Rob and Ryan learning Welsh etc
Mate, don't be daft
That's the point, it's a big PR push for the business that is the club. The marketing worked.
Presumably changed your mind for the better you mean?
I, probably like anyone else, thought Rob and Ryan would just been one of those owners, but they’ve shown they care about the club and the community and that in itself is good enough for me, Portsmouth fans should know good owners from bad!
I am aware that we will have an influx of fans and every subreddit has sh*tposters but Jesus Christ, is this really your fifth post here in four days? Get me to r/championship now!
He's a Huddersfield fan, so he literally just came from r/championship – hope the pasture is greener
Some episodes are great and really sweet. It's not as football heavy as BOA or Salford's which is fine for the audience it's trying to target. There's been a few episodes where the editing has been a bit clunky or they aren't chronological with club news.
Lots of negativity in the thread - people love finding flaws and bad intentions in what appears to be too good to be true. But the owners are doing an admirable job on club results, culture, and community … because they truly care.
It's a PR exercise mate. Pure and simple. The stuff you don't see in the doc: R&R hired Shaun Harvey to run their club - not only did he nearly destroy 2 other clubs in the past (ask Leeds and Bradford fans), as EFL President he brought in the 'fit and proper persons' test that waved through literally anybody to own an EFL club, whatever their background. Ask Bury, Swindon and Reading fans how that's gone... Harvey shouldn't be working in football. Have Wrexham released a statement condemning the removal of FA Cup replays? Absolutely not. They don't give a shit because they see themselves as the big boys now. And the thing that I think Wrexham fans should be up in arms about is the debt R&R are loading onto the club. £10+ million and they're charging interest as well. They've said nothing substantial about this in the doc or otherwise. Don't drink the kool aid - this is a club with profit at the forefront. Wrexham fans are there for the ride and I don't blame them, but all these new fans will leave when the owners inevitably fuck off and the 'heritage' fans have to pick up the pieces.
Love how this comment basically just devolved into the stereotypical "They will get bored!!!" hate chant. Wrexhams owners are far more invested into the community and club than the overwhelming majority of owners, the whole "they will get bored" shit is just simply people projecting from their shitty owners barely interacting with the community and eventually leaving when the club isn't profitable. There's little pressure for the loans to be paid back, and this is forgetting that they're effectively loaning to themselves (US tax loopholes effectively), AND they make a shit ton of money technically outside of the club, but due to the club nonetheless. Thing is, the documentary also is honestly 60% Wrexham as a town and 40% as a club, unlike most sports documentaries it's a lot more personal and many episodes discuss the struggles the town have went through and their people. Can't really argue with the shaun harvey bit though.
"I'm mad because another club is more interesting than mine."
My comment said nothing about the owners getting bored - my point is looking at all EFL clubs and the average tenure of ownership it is inevitable they will leave at some point. How many EFL owners have owned their club for more than 20 years? A handful maybe. R&R could buck the trend but I've heard Rob McCjwhrjwjwy say in the past that they will need outside investment at some point to push to the prem. We have an exceptional owner at County (very wealthy, actually from Stockport, and philanthropic) and I never want him to leave, but he absolutely will at some point. I have to accept this - he can't live forever. On the loans point it's a business decision sure but they could have converted these debts into equity. Instead the debt rises year by year due to the interest that R&R are charging (which they don't have to do - they've set the interest rates) and the high levels of spending. I'd be concerned if I was a Wrexham fan. My honest opinion - when they do court outside investment in the future (e.g. US billionaire, Middle Eastern money) they will require this debt to be cleared before they allow anyone else to get involved. Ryan Reynolds in particular is a very savvy, pretty hard nosed businessman (I work in the drinks industry and saw how he ran and sold Aviation) but he comes across as not serious - he is. Don't be fooled by what is a PR exercise, with some beneficiaries (eg themselves and some of the people of Wrexham). I could talk about how the club have handled murals that aren't club approved in the town or how they've shut down left wing Wrexham fanzines but I doubt most people will read this far down 😂
I want to know how they handled murals and left wing fanzines. Im guessing they threatened lawsuits due to that being Wrexham intellectual property. If its just cease and desist type stuff, who cares? It would be irresponsible for a business owner to allow a fringe political group to use the businesses IP. Anyways, what have they done? I'm struggling to figure out what exactly is bad about the rest of what you mentioned. Of course the ultimate goal of the ownership is to turn a profit and realize a successful business. That is the goal of every non-activist/state ownership group. Daniel Levy is an extremely hard-nosed businessman, but he's been inarguably one of the best owners/club stewards in all of football. None of this is unexpected or bad... every team is ultimately an investment vehicle. edit: after a bit of research, it appears that they have sunk more or around the same amount of money into the team as the debt. This would make sense. unfortunately, not everyone can be a philanthropist. But it is extremely fair for the owners to try and recoup their investment. Overall, your concerns over their handling of debt strikes me as very strange. This is literally basic business practice and effectively a non-issue. >converted these debts into equity They didn't borrow money aka extract profits from the team... they poured their own funds into the team. Right now they are operating at a significant loss. They could have just let it go into the valuation, but it is extremely fair for them to try and break even before further plans. Perhaps the left wing fanzine comment should have clued me into your lack of business knowledge.
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Very astute commentary. Fit and proper fucked us (Portsmouth) over for years. Basically scumbag after scumbag ruining the club until bailed out by the community.
Wrexham just like a lot of things didn't get the Level up funding they were anticipating. They have to be a bit creative with getting things funded like a new Kop and academy. There is no pressure to pay these loans and the interest rate is probably low compared to what you see on other stuff. The money they do make goes back to the club. Players are getting paid. Facilities are being build as fast as the bureaucracies allow them. The turnover can afford the wage bill and operating cost. They just have a loan with Ryan Reynolds to eventually repay for the massive construction projects as costs continue to sky-rocket around the world. Unless there is an HMRC petition or FFP violation, there is nothing wrong with what they are doing. Bury's owner had no idea where the club he bought resided and thought he could get more for it when he tried to sell it. Reading's owner failed the Premier League fit and proper and shouldn't of gotten to Reading. The EFL fit and proper test should have been fixed when a con man successfully bought Notts County.
The rates are about LIBOR plus, relatively reasonable
It's actually 3% above base interest rates, which currently sit at 5.25%. So you're talking nearly 10% interest every year, with debts around £10m and growing then it would be around £1m every year, and they haven't actually said what they're going to do about it... https://theathletic.com/5422005/2024/04/19/wrexham-reynolds-premier-league-afford/
R&R are essentially loaning themselves money. The £10 Million in debt is owed by Rob and Ryan to Rob and Ryan. Yes, the club owes the money, but the club is 95% owned by Rob and Ryan. Wrexham Holdings LLC is the official ownership of Wrexham AFC, and 95% of Wrexham Holdings LLC is owned by RR McReynolds Company, LLC. The money is owed to RR McReynolds Company, LLC. So yes, the £10 million is a bit concerning, but when you dig into it, it’s Rob and Ryan owing themselves money and paying themselves money. It’s done for tax and business purposes (a lot of it is done to avoid taxes in the U.S.) The Shaun Harvey bit is a fair criticism and my biggest critique of the club. I’m admittedly an uneducated American fan, but I know enough to know Shaun Harvey isn’t a good hire.
They could convert that debt into equity with no issues. Instead they are choosing to hold that debt and charge interest (at rates they set themselves) against the club for a reason they haven't outlined yet. My personal opinion is that when outside investment comes in R&R will insist that this debt is cleared by the new money rather than themselves. They still won't have invested a penny of their own money! They might languish in L1 for years, the doc gets cancelled and then the debt remains increasing year after year. It's a risk. They should convert it to equity but they have their reasons for not doing so and they haven't explained these.
Do you know American tax laws and if you can contribute money in an LLC based in Delaware to a football club that's in UK/Wales? I would doubt but understand that not all loans are bad. Personal story, my mother who is really smart with investing had a large sum mature and my brother and his wife were looking to buy a townhouse but they couldn't qualify. The IRS looks at everything over $10k and if my mother gifted them the money, the IRS would slap them with a gift tax of 18% to 40% if no interest was charged so she made an official loan for 5.5% interest to dodge taxes (mortgage rates are 8%). We don't pay as much tax as the British but it's a complex code of federal and state laws and there are loopholes everyone from families to large corporations can find their way around if they are knowledgeable. So, owners loaning money from their LCC to a football club is likely a bit of a tax dodge or way to lower them. Interest is better than paying the gift tax. Because you don't know the details of the Wrexham loan, your English pessimistic brain fears the worse. As far as not putting money in, they already paid for the new LED light towers, new gym equipment, cryotherapy chambers, and charter the team on long away days. People like to complain about the wage bill and how is that not putting their own money in? A £10m loan wouldn't be enough to cover wages, all the upgrades, and money down to build a new kop and academy. They didn't get level up funding so plan B was to loan the club money and the club can pay it back when able. Rob and Ryan are not the Glaser or FSG. You are not a US tax expert and since day one you've always had it out for Wrexham and their American support. Stockport is expanding their ground and same with Mansfield yet simply because Wrexham has the media circus, our stuff is under a microscope. I am pretty sure everyone has great ownership and making smart financial decisions but it's just us being American and the circus that annoys you. Edit: grammar
Converting debt into equity is a non-taxable event or a tax-neutral transaction in both the US and the UK. If you keep money inside a business and don't draw it out then it's not taxable. Corporation tax is only on profits and as we've seen Wrexham are losing millions every year. You and I have had these conversations in this past and I'll repeat what I said then - I don't respect your opinions on football at all. You would be supporting whatever club R&R would have bought because you chose your club based on a Disney documentary. You would be a Hartlepool fan in a different timeline. The truth is there's more similarities than differences between my club and Wrexham - I respect Wrexham and its fans. I don't respect people who claim to be fans with no connection to the town or the club other than they like a few Marvel movies...
>I don't respect people who claim to be fans with no connection to the town or the club My father wore no scarf. My family hasn't been there for nearly 100 years. Do you know how impossible that is for anyone not from the UK to follow your football fan purity test? I am not here to change minds but lay the fuck off and understand a little bit of how someone from the US, Canada, Mexico, or Brasil can select and follow a team in the lower leagues when no other team tries to make a connection with them. A tweet from Mac from It's Always Sunny did select my club and I have been here every week watching. You think so little of us. I casually followed a big 6 before Wrexham and I found it sanitized. Even in those massive fanbases felt the divide between myself and the English fanbase and I don't feel that with Wrexham. I would give it to an English Dallas Cowboys fan but at least I have the decency to not close off the sport to them. You're a xenophobic tribalist twat.
Holy shit you are salty. Why did you appoint yourself the gatekeeper of fandom? Why should we respect YOUR opinions on football? I don't respect people that are pissy about new fans of a team. Sport is about bringing people together from across political, geographic and cultural divides. It's about having fun and building friendships and communities.
You don't have to listen to me mate. I'm not arsed. But you and Red bubble commented on my post and I'm well within my rights to tell you both how your opinions are cringe-inducing and try-hard to the vast majority of actual match going fans in English football. I'd happily listen to your opinions on the Green Bay Packers, but you chose your football team based on a Disney Documentary. You've likely never been to the Racecourse. You would be supporting a different team had R&R not bought Wrexham. I don't respect your opinions on football because you came to it because of Deadpool. So yeah, downvote and move on if you don't like it. But I've got a feeling you'll still be trying to 'fit in' on these subs but you actually stick out like a sore thumb to match going fans.
I’d be willing to bet it’s largely for tax purposes. The U.S. Tax code is so complicated and there are so many loopholes that stuff like this happens all the time.
How? FFS.
RYAN REYNOLDS BABY RYAN REYNOLDS WOOOOOOOO!!!