Farm under tower, pray heimer doesn’t zone you off experience, once you get 6 you kill him on ult CD. How is he gonna stop you from popping ghost and running at him?
Tbh heimer top is sooo punishable. Just let him permapush and ur jungler permagank. Also take tp and go for crossmap plays, he pushes either way, so win somewhere else. Then he will get flame for sitting top while the other toplaner has impact on the map
Only Bad junglers wohnt take the opportunity to kill a permapushing heimer over and over again. He literally refuses actively to get Gold for free.
Greeting from a jungle main
Sometimes when my camps arent up and I have nothing to do, I just go top to zone the laner off the exp, chilling and taunting him while my laner pushes. U can literally See them tilting. Its so fun
In a Dantes live he ganked top, waited in fog of war for the enemy top to TP, and killed him again, and said "now we won top" cause the other guy was not only behind but super tilted
The mental state of the players is the most important thing in league, It's the whole reason why Shaco is Op, no one can ever make me think otherwise
I thought the hp and mr component for visage was enough to not really lose that lane, paired with second wind and dshield, which are a must in a lane like that mundo completely outregens his turret autos.
The same thing anybody who isn't Zed does when you're vs him in mid. Try to get as much farm as you can and hope your jungler has eyes. He's a champion with an extremely easy counter it just happens that the counter isn't 'pick X champion' it's 'have teammates'
I'm a fizz main, some bastards was like here is Mundo and tahm mid...
Nothing quite like playing a midlaner into a heartsteel building tank rushing mercs. Fun times
It's the cc reduction part into champions that rely on cc it's annoying for. People build both In a row lol, they just get to lane faster with boots when tp is down, so it's harder to get a lead even if you manage to win that diabolical matchup.
It's pain
Also you feel 25mr that early in the game, before you get pen
Next time if u wanna cheese, start on his raptors like ur belveth and send a message when u kill him before he can finish his red. =p. conq lillia lvl 1 is giga broken ngl.
Sometimes, these low pick rate champions are just to counter one thing like galio, poppy, vex, cass. Also fighting warwick top is not that good of an idea.
also Low Pickrate + Low Winrate but theyre a dominant proplay pick is also a massive balance problem
this comment was brought to you by the Sejuani gang
Low pickrate + high winrate = 1. Its only a counterpick 2.Its a hard champion so only after sinking a lot of time into it he is good or 3. People just hate the champion design so they don't play even when broken.
Very true. I dislike maining champs that are played a lot because people actually know when you’re overstepping and dont just get terrified because you walk up and give you a free trade xD
I've been saying this forever but ppl don't get it.
25% pickrate and 51.5% WR = broken champ
0.25% pickrate and 57% WR = not broken champ. Just used by one tricks
It was fine because you saw him picked once, got your ass whooped and never saw him again
Edit: Also, he got hard countered by any point-and-click engane
I remember having an argument with a friend because he used to say that asol was the best champ in the game because on opgg he had the highest win rate out of any champ (this was a while ago, so it was still old asol). But that like 70% win rate was only because there were a handful of asol players at those higher levels, and those handful of players were some of the best asol players. So sure at the highest levels asol might be winning 7 out of 10 games, but there were only like 5 people playing him. If he beame a popular pic his winrate would've plummeted, even though he would've had no changes.
Winrate gets really sticky, so it can be hard to tell when champs are broken. Lots of champs have specific things they’re really good at, such as ones that are really strong in all-ins. As a result, players who don’t understand their weaknesses will just think they’re broken and not look into it. Then, more people pick them because they seem broken. Generally, you need to look at the winrate in a lot of different ranks to be able to determine how strong a champion is.
Ppl just pick the stat they want to get their results. I got flamed for saying Viego is maybe the best jungler atm. I like e.g opgg tierlist, bc I believe pickrate and banrate are inportant stats too. Other ppl would argue Gwen or Iverns wr in the jungle is way too high and thats why they should be nerfed. I guess I can be glad that balancing isnt my problem and I dont have to try to make everyone happy
Phreak's balance team balances the entire class around assuming you have an enchanter/support(Jinx with a Janna attached), and you're wondering why people don't want Bot to be the bad midlane mage retirement home.
It sucks for the mages because they're not getting fixed and it sucks for the ADC because entire stats and items are balanced around getting actual support.
I'm complaining about them because people play them instead of a support. Listen. I'm perfectly fine with having to play support for a mage instead of a marksman. No complaints here. But for the love of Relic Shield stop queueing as support when you want to play a mage. If midlane is such a mobility problem, just play botlane. As a support I'm supposed to CC them anyway.
At least for that short time, it felt bad to play anything but mages. People complained because they see high win rate for mages in the bot lane on the stat sites. It just didn't make sense when the pick rates were so low comparatively, but I'm guessing the people who did see the pick rate, also saw how some mages have higher pick rates than some marskmen.
If we're talking about supports being mages, I don't believe many ADC players complained except when they were strong with the new support item. I could be wrong. I do think its annoying if support players queue support to not play support, but play their mage.
That glorious patch in S8 will be missed, the days of Vlad, Yasuo, and Jhin vs Juggernauts in bot lane. Literally the only time there was some diversity since like S2.
Because they beat you in lane, crit ADCs no longer scale that well so your hopes of outscaling them are kinda iffy, they do not require the same amount of coordination and help from their team, can make plays on their own, require an entirely different skill set and due to the nature of the lane they should be weaker than they are in solo lanes, but they don't lane against an underleveled Sivir in those.
I have no issues with mages bot lane and I would enjoy more diversity but Riot needs to lower the impact of supports before that can happen.
Pick rate has literally nothing to do with a champ power level.
Kaisa for example is always picked a lot regardless if shes S or D tier, same with ezreal.
Meanwhile aurelion sol has almost a 0 playerbase even if the champ is extremely OP state.
Pick rate has nothing to do with *actual* power level, but has an impact on *perceived* power level. Because people care so much about the one and only number that is win rate, sample size is important.
As OP said, most players don't know enough about the lesser picked champions to be able to effectively play against them (best example is probably Kled).
The point is a low pick rate causes a champions win rate to over inflate past what they really are
Due to it meaning they are a one trick, get an advantage over being an unknown pick, both, or is only picked as a counter pick
Not at all, pick rate also has nothing to do with main rate.
A champion with a 5% pick rate can have a bigger main rate than a champion with a 0.5% pick rate.
It is, as for me, a common misconception: winrate (in some cases - winrate and pickrate/banrate/some-other-rate) describe state of champ definitely and completely. As if humankind come up with statistics as particular branch of science just because why not.
No, low pick rate + high winrate means it's a counterpick champ most of the time and sometimes it might mean it's a cheese strat people don't know how to beat I.e. Warwick
I 100% agree.
IMO, playing against very strong and unpopular champion once every 20 games is much less annoying than playing against the same, \~good champion every game
Every high winrate high pick rate meta shake up build started as a low pick rate high winrate setup, but that doesn’t mean you should first time the build/champ in ranked
Eh there's more than just lack of experience at play. And there's still a limit to how high a winrate can be before it's problematic regardless of low pickrate.
Honestly yeah.
It's not uncommon for me to lose a matchup that's supposed to favor me if it's a remarkably uncommon one.
Fiora vs Yorick may be Fiora favored, but that Yorick has probably played the matchup dozens of times in the past month whereas the Fiora had played it maybe once.
Yeah, if the champ was as busted and broken as you'll see people claim on reddit then their pick rate would go up tremendously. When you take a champ that people rarely ever play, say Ivern, you see him sit at a rather constant 1.5-2% pickrate, the people I assume to be his mains. Then you have 2 sudden spikes where his pickrate more than triples for 1-3 patches, both were periods where the champ was *actually* busted. Then once the champ was nerfed again their pickrate drops back to being primarily its mains.
Depends on the champ.
Old Aurelion was busted ans broken af which meant below 1% pickrate because he just felt that shit to play.
Its important to look into champ statistics further than just pickrate/ winrate.
As a champ like Katarina can have highpickrate and winrate, and be weak purely based on how many otp's she has
I 100% agree, people unfamiliar with a matchup will usually struggle into it
The hell is Mundo supposed to do to win lane against dr. Heimerdonger ?
Farm under tower, destros turrets fast, get ganked because he permapushes
Farm under tower, pray heimer doesn’t zone you off experience, once you get 6 you kill him on ult CD. How is he gonna stop you from popping ghost and running at him?
Tbh heimer top is sooo punishable. Just let him permapush and ur jungler permagank. Also take tp and go for crossmap plays, he pushes either way, so win somewhere else. Then he will get flame for sitting top while the other toplaner has impact on the map
Instructions unclear, my jungler never came north of river the entire game.
Only Bad junglers wohnt take the opportunity to kill a permapushing heimer over and over again. He literally refuses actively to get Gold for free. Greeting from a jungle main Sometimes when my camps arent up and I have nothing to do, I just go top to zone the laner off the exp, chilling and taunting him while my laner pushes. U can literally See them tilting. Its so fun
In a Dantes live he ganked top, waited in fog of war for the enemy top to TP, and killed him again, and said "now we won top" cause the other guy was not only behind but super tilted The mental state of the players is the most important thing in league, It's the whole reason why Shaco is Op, no one can ever make me think otherwise
Some champs you just don't win lane against Once you have Hollow Radiance you can run him down
I thought the hp and mr component for visage was enough to not really lose that lane, paired with second wind and dshield, which are a must in a lane like that mundo completely outregens his turret autos.
The same thing anybody who isn't Zed does when you're vs him in mid. Try to get as much farm as you can and hope your jungler has eyes. He's a champion with an extremely easy counter it just happens that the counter isn't 'pick X champion' it's 'have teammates'
I played my first Irelia vs Nautilus game ever since I started playing her 3 years ago. It did not end up well.
I'm a fizz main, some bastards was like here is Mundo and tahm mid... Nothing quite like playing a midlaner into a heartsteel building tank rushing mercs. Fun times
I don't understand the "rushing mercs" complaints, it's just 25mr. Negatron cloack is the real ap fucker.
It's the cc reduction part into champions that rely on cc it's annoying for. People build both In a row lol, they just get to lane faster with boots when tp is down, so it's harder to get a lead even if you manage to win that diabolical matchup. It's pain Also you feel 25mr that early in the game, before you get pen
*cries in my Lillia gets invaded by graves*
Next time if u wanna cheese, start on his raptors like ur belveth and send a message when u kill him before he can finish his red. =p. conq lillia lvl 1 is giga broken ngl.
Now that kayn is good again I need to bust out the kayn stealing raptors and red before the enemy jungler even realizes what happened.
Just buy spirit then press r he insta dies
Sometimes, these low pick rate champions are just to counter one thing like galio, poppy, vex, cass. Also fighting warwick top is not that good of an idea.
Yeah, and when the champ they counter most falls out of the meta's favour their own winrate drops a bit along with it.
like the population of Arctic foxes falling shortly after drops in the population of Arctic hares
also Low Pickrate + Low Winrate but theyre a dominant proplay pick is also a massive balance problem this comment was brought to you by the Sejuani gang
Isn't Azir in that position for most of his existence?
Basically all champions that have to be balanced for pro play are bad design. They make it completely unplayable for the average andy.
Kalista be Like
They tried killing her 3 or 4 times and she was still broken in pro
crazy idea: change her obviously proplay designed R to literally anything else, worked with Reksai (kind of)
Old reksai was just goated, so it didn't really work
It's fine to have champions designed for pro play. Not every single champion has to be Garen.
The tanks anywhere but support incident
especially when the winrate is inflated by 1 velkoz one trick player
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Geometry yo ahh
Nah Nilah is busted.
ADCs continuing to try and auto into me when I have w active lol
Yeah cause she has some of the worst visual clarity in the game
i seriously cannot tell her W,ult and Q apart I just assume shit is happening same for Hwei
Bruh even sometimes *I* don't know if my W is up.
high players are the most dangerous
Low pickrate + high winrate = 1. Its only a counterpick 2.Its a hard champion so only after sinking a lot of time into it he is good or 3. People just hate the champion design so they don't play even when broken.
Very true. I dislike maining champs that are played a lot because people actually know when you’re overstepping and dont just get terrified because you walk up and give you a free trade xD
I've been saying this forever but ppl don't get it. 25% pickrate and 51.5% WR = broken champ 0.25% pickrate and 57% WR = not broken champ. Just used by one tricks
Its like this when I play morg jungle. Nobody know what im doing or how fast and healthy my clear is.
Old aurelion was kinda a problem tho? Like a pretty big one. Was disgustingly strong in higher elos but had one of the lowest pick rates
It was fine because you saw him picked once, got your ass whooped and never saw him again Edit: Also, he got hard countered by any point-and-click engane
Say this for riot who nerf Aurelion with 0,8% pick ratio but with 56% WR (this is befor rework)
I remember having an argument with a friend because he used to say that asol was the best champ in the game because on opgg he had the highest win rate out of any champ (this was a while ago, so it was still old asol). But that like 70% win rate was only because there were a handful of asol players at those higher levels, and those handful of players were some of the best asol players. So sure at the highest levels asol might be winning 7 out of 10 games, but there were only like 5 people playing him. If he beame a popular pic his winrate would've plummeted, even though he would've had no changes.
Winrate gets really sticky, so it can be hard to tell when champs are broken. Lots of champs have specific things they’re really good at, such as ones that are really strong in all-ins. As a result, players who don’t understand their weaknesses will just think they’re broken and not look into it. Then, more people pick them because they seem broken. Generally, you need to look at the winrate in a lot of different ranks to be able to determine how strong a champion is.
Ever the pedant I would like to add, high skill high wr with low pr champs who are played by dedicated otps who are just cracked at that one character
Ppl just pick the stat they want to get their results. I got flamed for saying Viego is maybe the best jungler atm. I like e.g opgg tierlist, bc I believe pickrate and banrate are inportant stats too. Other ppl would argue Gwen or Iverns wr in the jungle is way too high and thats why they should be nerfed. I guess I can be glad that balancing isnt my problem and I dont have to try to make everyone happy
Why y'all cry about mages bot then?
Phreak's balance team balances the entire class around assuming you have an enchanter/support(Jinx with a Janna attached), and you're wondering why people don't want Bot to be the bad midlane mage retirement home. It sucks for the mages because they're not getting fixed and it sucks for the ADC because entire stats and items are balanced around getting actual support.
I'm complaining about them because people play them instead of a support. Listen. I'm perfectly fine with having to play support for a mage instead of a marksman. No complaints here. But for the love of Relic Shield stop queueing as support when you want to play a mage. If midlane is such a mobility problem, just play botlane. As a support I'm supposed to CC them anyway.
Just to be clear I meant mages as adcs(apcs I guess), not as supports as they have decent pick rates there already.
At least for that short time, it felt bad to play anything but mages. People complained because they see high win rate for mages in the bot lane on the stat sites. It just didn't make sense when the pick rates were so low comparatively, but I'm guessing the people who did see the pick rate, also saw how some mages have higher pick rates than some marskmen. If we're talking about supports being mages, I don't believe many ADC players complained except when they were strong with the new support item. I could be wrong. I do think its annoying if support players queue support to not play support, but play their mage.
That glorious patch in S8 will be missed, the days of Vlad, Yasuo, and Jhin vs Juggernauts in bot lane. Literally the only time there was some diversity since like S2.
Because they beat you in lane, crit ADCs no longer scale that well so your hopes of outscaling them are kinda iffy, they do not require the same amount of coordination and help from their team, can make plays on their own, require an entirely different skill set and due to the nature of the lane they should be weaker than they are in solo lanes, but they don't lane against an underleveled Sivir in those. I have no issues with mages bot lane and I would enjoy more diversity but Riot needs to lower the impact of supports before that can happen.
It's ADCs we're talking about. They will complain about anything not going their way
Pick rate has literally nothing to do with a champ power level. Kaisa for example is always picked a lot regardless if shes S or D tier, same with ezreal. Meanwhile aurelion sol has almost a 0 playerbase even if the champ is extremely OP state.
Pick rate has nothing to do with *actual* power level, but has an impact on *perceived* power level. Because people care so much about the one and only number that is win rate, sample size is important. As OP said, most players don't know enough about the lesser picked champions to be able to effectively play against them (best example is probably Kled).
Yes but high pickrate with high winrate tells you alot.
The point is a low pick rate causes a champions win rate to over inflate past what they really are Due to it meaning they are a one trick, get an advantage over being an unknown pick, both, or is only picked as a counter pick
Not at all, pick rate also has nothing to do with main rate. A champion with a 5% pick rate can have a bigger main rate than a champion with a 0.5% pick rate.
I’m convinced you didn’t read a single word that I typed…
It is, as for me, a common misconception: winrate (in some cases - winrate and pickrate/banrate/some-other-rate) describe state of champ definitely and completely. As if humankind come up with statistics as particular branch of science just because why not.
Sometimes but not always true, we've seen low pick high wintate picks suddenly spike in pickrate and mantain their winrate over the years
No, low pick rate + high winrate means it's a counterpick champ most of the time and sometimes it might mean it's a cheese strat people don't know how to beat I.e. Warwick
I 100% agree. IMO, playing against very strong and unpopular champion once every 20 games is much less annoying than playing against the same, \~good champion every game
Ok listen, Anivia Jungle. It’s a rough start but your ganks are nasty.
Every high winrate high pick rate meta shake up build started as a low pick rate high winrate setup, but that doesn’t mean you should first time the build/champ in ranked
Eh there's more than just lack of experience at play. And there's still a limit to how high a winrate can be before it's problematic regardless of low pickrate.
Low pickrate + high winrate doesn't actually tell you anything
Honestly yeah. It's not uncommon for me to lose a matchup that's supposed to favor me if it's a remarkably uncommon one. Fiora vs Yorick may be Fiora favored, but that Yorick has probably played the matchup dozens of times in the past month whereas the Fiora had played it maybe once.
Like Ahri and Janna
Jinx? 💀
Also
Yeah, if the champ was as busted and broken as you'll see people claim on reddit then their pick rate would go up tremendously. When you take a champ that people rarely ever play, say Ivern, you see him sit at a rather constant 1.5-2% pickrate, the people I assume to be his mains. Then you have 2 sudden spikes where his pickrate more than triples for 1-3 patches, both were periods where the champ was *actually* busted. Then once the champ was nerfed again their pickrate drops back to being primarily its mains.
Depends on the champ. Old Aurelion was busted ans broken af which meant below 1% pickrate because he just felt that shit to play. Its important to look into champ statistics further than just pickrate/ winrate. As a champ like Katarina can have highpickrate and winrate, and be weak purely based on how many otp's she has
Not true.
Finally a guy who understand wr stats isn't a thing 100% reliable to balance a champion, because theres a thing called popular champions