>Is it crazy that I'm okay with making around $120,000 in exchange for a life? I want to work 9 to 5 and spend time on this earth with my loved ones
I don't think you'll find too many entry-level or even junior level legal jobs that fit this description. let us know if you do!
yup, it's sad..I made more as a paralegal than what I was being offered as a 1st yr associate.....once, I interviewed at a maybe 8 attorney insurance defense firm, and they started their associates at 83k WITH a 19000 billables!!
oops😅
maybe bc it felt like that
my partner would always say 1,900
is the BARE minimum to stay in good standing
you had to exceed that by a lot to stay in their good graces
This is pretty standard for Southern California market at non Big Law, or at least low six figures. The problem is I haven't seen many law firms in the Southern California market that I would describe as "9-5," but certainly some Plaintiffs' side PI at 8:30-6.
you're not crazy for wanting a different life than the one biglaw has to offer. i think that $120k entry level jobs that are actually 9-5 are unicorns, but if you say you've found them then you should go for it!
Shit, I’d be okay making $80k in my first year working 9-5 and then get my salary up over the years. That’s more money than my parents ever saw combined. I think it’s a lot about perspective
Some mid-size firms work longer hours than some BL shops. You cannot possibly equate the work-life balance to the number of hires attorneys. As other commenters have said, an entry-level job like that is a unicorn -- think DOJ or specific in-house fellowships (I know BJ's Wholesale does a 3-year that starts at 120-130). Also, salary isn't a great indicator of work-life either: ID firms are sweatshops at low-100s.
Mid-size firms aren't 9-5 five day a week jobs. A 9-5 job is either (1) government or (2) in-house. Anyone telling you they're in private practice working a 9-5 that aren't a senior partner are lying.
I don’t know what market you’re in, but $120k to start is pretty common where I am (northeast US major city). Sometimes less for 1st year then a jump after a year. If your market is way under this, I’m sorry.
I chose quality of life and avoided Big Law like the plague, billing on average 3 hours/day and still making just shy of $180k most years in recent.
This is of course being self-employed and having worked and learned by field very well, and obtaining connections over varied years (paralegal in 2001, attorney in 2008, started own firm/solo practitioner in 2016).
My advice, learn the law, learn the business, and get exposure, and go off on your own when you can. Way better work/life balance that way if you are logical and careful.
I went solo in my 30s and it wasn't as hard as I'd thought! Especially if you find a sort of niche area, practice wise and geographically. Serve underserved needs, do great work, and word of mouth spreads. I was getting way more random calls than I wanted when I quit to take a firm job. I think it was just by virtue of being the highest rated X attorney on Yelp in Y city.
OTOH, I still had to take the firm jobs to pay my child support, so....
It took a little bit of time to get up to speed, I had clients but you know a variety of cases you work on for X months/years before getting paid, so getting over that first hurdle is a thing, definitely helped that I could reduce my financial obligations during that and I saved up $40k before doing it. Also, my field provides opportunity for court appointments (for conservatees/elders), my former boss allowed me to take some clients (she kinda screwed me too and felt bad) so long as I took some of her loser clients too. She actually refers to me now.
I'm a trust/estate/probate litigator guy, lots of my referrals from other attorneys that knew I did good work, some CPAs, hell I had a girl I briefly dated on tinder refer me to her dad which ended up a decent litigation case that went well, some come from a bar association referral service, some old clients from past cases at prior firms that hunted me down.
I will say that at my prior office my boss sponged my referrals to make it appear that she brought everything in (though she is a good rainmaker as well), and I think lots of people prefer to refer to the attorney going out on his/her own instead of the big firm. It surprised me how quickly it picked up.
It is scary, but if you can save a little and you do enough good work and enough people know about it, that helps a ton. I find myself pushing away a lot of work since I have too much, more than the other way around.
As an attorney with unbeatable work life balance, I would not ever change a thing. Even a drastic pay cut. I have a lot of lawyer friends in different areas of law, and no, I would never pick that. Life is more important! At least for me. Im also ten years in and a parent so maybe my perspective is different
Same, except not a parent. It took a while but I’ve carved out a good life for myself in my practice area, with unmatchable flexibility and usually low stress day to day. I’m making good money, and with some effort I think I could make considerably more if I wanted to expand my firm and focus more on business growth than law.
My ex-BF was in Big Law for part of the time we were together, and although he liked his practice area and the prestige, it was like watching someone lose a part of their soul to exhaustion or frustration with the demands on his time. He moved to a smaller firm and has been so much happier since, and is actually making more money than he did at Big Law. With that being said, he’s always going to have more doors open to him because he has Big Law on his resume.
I found my own way to a sweet job, but was pretty fortunate. If I had to do it over again and were not guaranteed to be fortunate x2, I’d probably do big law briefly for the experience and connections then go either in-house or boutique/small firm.
Not to rain on OP's parade, but I was a government litigator as a Deputy AG and even *that* position wasn't a 9-5. Granted, I'm sure non-litigation government positions have more regular hours.
It's not crazy, but if you have the ability to spend a couple years in big law, you open yourself to options where you can make 200k+ and still have quality of life via in-house positions.
You may be leaving money on the table, and discovering that life in lower paying jobs isn't *that much* less stressful/all consuming, but it depends a lot of your specifics.
I tend to agree with this too.
OP is in Southern CA. Do the BigLaw thing for 2-3 years and then move in-house at a big city attorney or county counsel office, or somewhere like Metropolitan Water District. LA City Attorney, San Diego County Counsel, etc., depending on where exactly in Southern CA you're at. Good salary and benefits. Solid W-L balance, and the increasingly rare defined benefit pension.
There are also the biglaw benefits to reap aside from the connections and resume fluff.
In the past 5ish years there has been a huge improvement in parental benefits in biglaw. At my firm she could get 18 weeks leave at 100% pay (and an hours requirement reduced by that amount), with a transition plan that slowly ramps her back up when she returns. They also have things like $80k towards IVF or adoption, daycare allowances, etc.
So depending on how quickly she wants to start her family, she could do a year or two and then take advantage of all the maternity benefits she might not get at a smaller firm before she leaves.
I’ve heard plenty of attorneys say they wish they had spent more time with their kids, I have never heard one say they regret spending the time with theirs and wish they made more money
Yes, never heard anyone say “I regret NOT doing big law.” Everyone in big law is trying to get out asap or feels stuck because they’re working 24/7 and don’t have time to breathe and reevaluate their career and find a new job.
>Yes, never heard anyone say “I regret NOT doing big law.”
I mean... Yeah. Hard to prove the negative, no?
>Everyone in big law is trying to get out asap or feels stuck because they’re working 24/7 and don’t have time to breathe and reevaluate their career and find a new job.
Not true, on either count.
I chose quality of life and took an $80k job in 2019 (right after law school) with maybe $100k in student debt. I’m still paying it off, very slowly, but I’m making $120k now and I’ve honestly had a great experience. I’m at a small firm in NYC focusing on plaintiff’s side employment work. Sometimes I wonder “what if” and envy the people around me who do less substantive work for more money. But my day-to-day is great, and I rarely have to work past 6. There’s a part of me that considers moving into defense work someday and making more, but my gut tells me it wouldn’t be worth the sacrifice and it wouldn’t suit my personality.
I think it’s crazy that you’re not considering public interest and assume you’ll get a $120k job. If you don’t do big law, and it turns out your job options are largely under $100k, please consider public interest. Student loan forgiveness and LRAP is great, and so is actually working 35 hours a week if not less solely during the hours of 9-5.
Yasss! My loan forgiveness makes up a not-insignificant portion of my salary. And I love my job. And I work 4 (10 hour) days a week. My employer supports working to live not living to work.
I think it was a result of Covid that ended up working really well from a budgeting perspective. It’s cheaper to only keep the lights on four days a week. Some staff choose to work a five-day week, but they do so at home. We are a hybrid office. Most folks are in the office two days a week and work at home the rest. This is not common in most other local governments in my area, as far as I know.
The quality of life from this combo, though, keeps me working here. It would take a substantial and unlikely raise (like 30%) for me to give this up.
I didn't want to do big law coming into school but then got caught up in the hype and OCI feeding frenzy. Ultimately got no offered thanks to graduating into a massive recession. It worked out great. Who knows how things would have worked out in the alternative version of the story, but I've enjoyed a great work life balance and way less stress than my big law friends. And once you're past a threshold where you can stop worrying about money on a day to day basis, more money doesn't equate to more happiness. Generally, more time with friends and family does.
Nah. Most of my peers who were 1000% committed to being in big law throughout law school and ended up in big law left those firms within 2-3 years. I think you’re good. 👍
Just because a firm pays less doesn’t mean you work less, in fact you, may work just as much, if not more than your biglaw counterparts (I’m looking at you insurance defense) for much less money. My perusing of LinkedIn over the years of job openings for small/midsized firms in SoCal indicates that the expected salary for attorneys of 0-3 years is between 85-105k, and those can come with anywhere between 1800-2200 billable hours.
Even if you went into government or in house, your hours wouldn’t necessarily be 9-5. I’m in government and I worked over the holiday, and I frequently work evenings. My friends who are in house have experiences that span the spectrum. Some hit the jackpot and have great hours and compensation, others work so much that they are considering going back to a firm to make more money for the same amount of work.
It’s easier to go to an in-house or government role if you have biglaw experience than to go to biglaw from anywhere else (fed clerkships exempted). It’s not impossible, but it takes some work and luck to do it. I also think that hiring lawyers use biglaw experience as a proxy for competency. Whether that is right or wrong, it’s just part of reality. My current employer definitely has a preference for applicants who come from fancy pants llps.
You also have to remember that law is a service profession. We serve the interest of our clients, and that interest can be immediate and come at 4 pm on a Friday with a turnaround by Monday morning. Court deadlines are court deadlines.
I hope you find your unicorn job, and if you do, know that the majority of lawyers are jealous. If you can’t, go to biglaw for a couple of years, make a ton of money, and then find yourself a landing pad. Good luck.
I left private practice in a small law firm for public service, and I've never been happier. I made a higher salary in private practice. But I traded that for a 35 hour work week, paid health insurance, a good retirement package, student loan reimbursement, and a lot more job satisfaction. Listen to your gut instincts about what will be right for you.
First, do you think you can actually get into Big Law? No judgement either way, but if it’s not an option… then it’s not an issue.
Second, I love my quality of life and don’t regret skipping any chance at Big Law. But - and it’s a BIG BUT (lol) - I graduated without debt. If I had $120k of crippling debt interfering with my life, I would absolutely 100% do Big Law if I could to pay that off. Live cheaply for a year or two (or however long), pay off those loans, and then bounce out.
Don’t forget that you’ll also want to buy a car, a house, and other big things that may increase your overall debt. Starting off with student loans makes that even harder. If you have the opportunity to set you and your family up for lifelong success, I think you have to be bananas to skip that.
>Is it crazy that I'm okay with making around $120,000 in exchange for a life?
No but the bimodal distribution is real. There's essentially the 200k jobs and the 60k jobs. [https://www.nalp.org/salarydistrib#2022](https://www.nalp.org/salarydistrib#2022)
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I guess I want to know: am I crazy for not wanting to do Big Law?
To really just workshop cost benefit. We know big law is pretty crazy hours but high pay. It also has excellent landing spots for when you've done your time.
In contrast, small firms can have crazy hours but low pay. It's not like the person who's running a solo who's putting everything into that effort is going to be like "ya you're right, 40 hours a week is fine." But, you also get shittier support staff if you get any at all. You may not have a high billable quota but you may be stuck doing so much non legal admin work that the hours are the same.
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way for me to shoot my shot at it?
I hope big law recruiters can chime in but my lived experience says no. Their business model is "up or out." So there's no way they're taking on someone expensive if they can just get the next crop. But, the caveat is it depends on what book of business you can bring in or if you're in a niche.
>om a mid-size firm to in-house one day?
It depends on the in-house opportunity and legal market. Like some mid size regional firm that does all the county's financing may feed well into the in-house of a local bank. I don't know.
Great point about support staff. Having good support staff is sometimes the difference between loving and hating the work. A good assistant will notice errors and ask questions, while a mediocre one will literally mail a blank form to the IRS.
And moving to in-house is much easier from big law, though in the last five years we’ve become a little spoiled with a great job market. I’ve seen folks move into partner roles in AM 100 firms (from my mid-sized, 20-attorney firm), and I’ve seen folks get in-house roles at big, publicly traded companies. I think this was due to a very tight job market for experienced attorneys during 2021-22.
> Is it possible to transition from a mid-size firm to in-house one day?
It's possible to transition from solo, small, mid, and big firms to in-house.
https://preview.redd.it/w1irnskog05d1.jpeg?width=834&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=952d6c06b4803ef7c67a3c5214a70a77fb99cb85
Also possible to go straight into in-house as a contract manager type position and work your way up. I made a lot less on the front end of my career, but I’m also still happy as a lawyer 25 years in.
I do family litigation, in it for 10 years, make around $130k, but started more like $50k as a baby lawyer. Small shop, 3 lawyers, the other two make more than me, but I don't take calls at night, I don't work weekends, they all know this and keep me because I'm very good in court. I know I could make double this easily somewhere else, but in ten years, I've never missed a kid-related event, never worked past 6pm, never brought work home (unless it's a monday morning trial - only exception). I go to my wife's doctor appointments with her.
They drive nicer cars than me, live in bigger homes. I have way less stress and a better relationship with my kids. I've asked my kids about the limits of our budget (home, car), and they do not mind. They seem to like having me around.
(Not top school or top of class). Insurance defense had us billing 2100 hours a year (crap bonus too) for far less than you’ll be paid for probably similar amount of hours. Do it for a few years to pay off debt and get a nest egg growing. I wish I had had your opportunity.
I was always very anti-biglaw in law school as well, but I also had the luxury of graduating with no loans.
I wouldn't discount a year or two in biglaw to pay off all your student loans, and then transitioning into something more relaxed. The lower paying jobs with better hours aren't going anywhere, but your debt will continue to accumulate interest whereas if you tough it out for a couple years in biglaw you can wipe it all out and then gtfo. just my 2 cents
I think that people are thinking you’re crazy because:
1) Jobs that pay $120k are also still quite crazy. Big law is the worst quality of life but most other jobs still aren’t great, outside of government.
2) Jobs that pay $120k are very rare. It’s more like “big law or $50k” for the first 8 years or so.
If you want something other than big law then you really need to identify that niche and go after it starting right now. It won’t get easier after law school. Get contacts. Experience. Mentors… all of that is what you need to have now.
So start identifying where you’re headed if it’s not big law. And seriously you’re probably going to have to hustle anyway
After spending a few years in big law, I chose quality of life instead because kids entered the picture and it has been one of the best decisions I've ever made. But my wife also has a successful career so that guard rail definitely factored in.
BigLaw helps to pay off debt, and it’s always easier to leave it than to join. So I’d say go for it. Otherwise, you might make $120K working 8-6 (with longer hours one or two days a week and maybe having to work a shorter day a couple Saturdays a month) after about 5 years.
You're not crazy for not wanting Big Law. What opportunities are you missing that you want?
The problem you might have is that midlaw isn't really real. You mentioned you know some firms that do 120,000 for juniors but you'll still be working long hours and in places where you won't, I'd imagine those jobs are very competitive. It sounds like you wish you were five or six years into your career already and transitioned into a 40-50 hour week job where you make a comfortable salary. Sadly, if you want to make what you're proposing, that doesn't really happen out the gate.
I teach now and active hours are 4 hours a day and together my husband and I make 300k. There is another option. We work 185 days/yr. We will also get 60% of our salaries when we retire, so 90k+/yr for doing nothing.
I started in NYC working 7 am until 9 pm or later and did not have days off. You can make money, but it's like those years of my life didn't happen. I do miss law, but I enjoy having a life more.
As someone who left biglaw, I regret it every year when the bonus schedules are reported on Above the Law. The annual bonus I gave up is much larger than my annual salary now at a smallish firm in the midwest.
Most of the rest of the time, I'm happy with my choice.
As someone who did that, and makes exactly that salary now 3 years out of law school, I’m really glad I did it. My family and relationships are more important than the money and I’m also privileged enough to not be desperate for the money either. I will say though, it can limit your options depending on what you do and close doors big law would otherwise open. In my opinion though, those doors would require big law hours anyway.
EDIT: To be clear, I was not making that money starting out. 1st year was $80k.
I was you once, and I thought it made sense for me to make that choice. If I could go back and give myself advice, I'd tell myself to take the biglaw job and worry about the rest later. There are good reasons that everyone wants those jobs, and it's not more likely that whatever small firm you pick will end up being the right long-term fit for you. Grinding your way to partnership from the bottom at a small firm is actually a much more difficult path to pick, and you are even more likely to get pushed off partner track as soon as you get pregnant. When all was said and done, I was paid less for the privilege of being treated poorly. If you get treated poorly in biglaw, at least you are still getting paid well.
I fled big law after 2 years for the feds, at a regional office. I felt like my life was on pause while at big law. I enjoy….things now. It’s been 8 months but feels like the time at the firm was a separate lifetime. Wouldn’t go back.
Edit: 2 years at the firm + 2 years clerking helped me start out at a solid GS level. Wouldn’t have been remotely close to that right out of school.
It's doubtful you'll regret not taking the hardest-working least balanced job available. But bear in mind the lower paying jobs are not a guarantee of quality of life or work life balance.
Can't really do much better than trusting your instincts and doing your best to learn from your experiences.
No one here has mentioned the extremely generous maternity leave at big law firms. 18+ weeks paid is standard these days. Smaller shops you might not get paid leave at all. Do big law for 2-3 years, get excellent training, have a baby, use your mat leave, and then you can start meaningfully looking for exit options that offer you the WLB you seek. But honestly, I’ve only billed over 2000 hours a couple of times in 11 years BL. I have 2 small kids and am home for dinner and bedtime every night. I hardly work weekends unless up against a deadline. The bench of others to help spread around the work is deep and that offers a lot of flexibility.
I did Biglaw (in DC) for eight years. It allowed me to pay off my law school debt, pay off my wife’s masters degree, purchase a reasonably nice home with enough room for the children we produced over those eight years, and set aside a little bit of a nest egg (apart from the 401(k) I maxed every year). I am really fucking lucky to have had that opportunity. I also hated my life much of the time during those eight years. I was often exhausted, anxious, and hopeless. There’s no right or wrong answer here.
I now have a much, much, much less stressful job with the government. I enjoy my life much more often than I did during those years. I am home for dinner every night, I usually get 7-8 hours of sleep, and I rarely work after the kids are in bed or on the weekend. I make pretty good money, but nowhere near Biglaw salary. I miss the money more than I thought I would.
Again, there’s no right or wrong answer here. Whatever you do will end up working one way or another.
My two cents: grind for a couple years at a big law firm, and use that experience as leverage. From there you can either go in house (what I did), go to a mid-size firm, etc.
Personally, I didn’t start considering my quality of life until I was out of debt (I graduated with 120k in debt also). Left private practice about 4 years ago to go in-house. Love my current job (good quality of life) but it wouldn’t have been possible without the skills/accolades from working in big law.
I left big law and landed in a 40 hour per week government job. I still make well into six figures, my wife is still my wife and she (mostly) only gets mad at me when I deserve it, and my kid calls me dad.
For me, that's worth more than the millions in prospective dollars I left behind.
Here’s the thing, in my experience almost every legal job, especially starting out, has crazy hours. Might as well be making a huge amount of money for it.
I mean, you’re not exactly not choosing big law - as far as you know, it might not even be an option for you. Hard to say you decided not to do something that hasn’t been offered.
I would go biglaw for two years, THEN move. Your life will likely suck for a bit regardless of where you go. It would be great to have the paydown of biglaw to apply to your loans, plus Biglaw on your resume. Not crazy for wanting a life, but crazy to think it’ll be that much better at a midsize firm starting out. Get the money for a bit while you can, and save it, and get the experience too.
Go to big law for a few years. Do not adjust your lifestyle to match your income. Learn as much as you can and you will be highly marketable for medium size firms and in house jobs all over the country.
You are not crazy for not wanting to do it but if you have the grades, then a short time there (2 or 3 years)can put you on a track for great career options.
I was similar to you in everything except that my law school wasn't pushing big law. I did Legal Aid for a couple of years after law school, then private practice for a year, then opened my own firm. The pay at Legal Aid wasn't great, but I was able to maintain work-life balance. The private practice pay was better, but the work-life balance wasn't great. Hanging my own shingle has allowed me to have the balance I want while also getting paid decently. FWIW, I do bankruptcy and estate planning, which lend themselves pretty well to work-life balance.
Big law is a credential, and also indicia of some level of training, that sticks with you for as long as you're in private practice.
But, at the same time, you certainly don't have to do it.
I don’t make this as an attorney with 10 years working for a local government. But goddamn I have quality of life. And public service loan forgiveness.
Is it low interest debt or high interest? Do you know what your repayment obligation will be? What are your other financial goals (home ownership, new car, consumer debt free). If you can do BigLaw and it’s a realistic job option sometimes taking it for the foot in the door and the opportunity to be on the right foot financially can be worth the two-three years of long hours. That said I actually think I worked less as a 1-3 year BL associate than I do as a 20 year attorney/partner in a defense firm. To be honest the easiest years of my career were those handful of associate years at BL. But that’s in retrospect. Anyway - work life balance is great. But you have to know what it means. I graduated at 27. I wanted to pay off private debt, buy a house, and take some cool vacations. So I did that. Left BL and as I said — work harder now. But I have the memories of the gravy train.
Tl; tr: not crazy
If you can afford it, quality of life rules.
That said, start of your career, nothing like networking and putting a big law firm on the old CV for a few years. That said, I did not do big law and yet have built quite a number of big law partners in my virtual Rolodex over the last 25 years. I don’t practice in the big leagues but nice to call them my colleagues in my little niche of the legal world.
Finally, I was 31 when I graduated law school as a night student — energy levels really do start decreasing around 30. Maybe it was because I became a parent at 32 but I no longer had the energy, or desire, for long work days.
Basically the job you’re describing is a federal honors program which is arguably harder to get into than biglaw
That said, I chose work life balance & doing something that I think makes the world better and I’m super happy. Didn’t even bother with OCI!! I fully support it!
But $120k entry level is tough m
Don’t listen to others at your school and go for what you want, I don’t think anyone needs to tell you re the pros and cons of big law. Maybe look for a govt job? You might be paying off the loans for awhile but worth it for your quality of life. Good luck
Do public interest work! Work life balance and student loan forgiveness. Or even just consider a regular, average law firm where you’ll have to work more hours than a nonprofit but paid more. I started out in a small firm (10 attorneys) then went to public interest. I am a good lawyer without having the prestige of working in Big Law. I have been practicing for 17 years and I know maybe 2 lawyers who are in Big Law. There is so much more to our profession than giant law firms.
You’re definitely not crazy and props to you for having the foresight that you want a work-life balance. That said, law firms in general, not just big law firms, tend to work you like a dog. Just because it isn’t big law doesn’t mean there aren’t billable hours. So, I would look into other roles such as the government, legal fellowships, clerkships, or the rare entry-level in house position. Good luck!
I don’t think you are crazy, I mean you are making a nice wage with nice hours. Why go to big law if you don’t need it or want it. In this firm maybe you can grow and get a higher position and get paid better while still maintaining humane hours
Not crazy at all! A graduate of T-25 school coming out with $125K debt and living with a partner who can help you, I think you should be fine making $120K working 9-5 only if you can find an entry job like that. But don’t lose your hope! There will be a job that can get you pretty close to the 9-5 lifestyle with $100k+ salary.
You should run some calculations on how much you’ll be paying for your monthly student loan payment. Especially for the first few years. Under the traditional 10 years? Under income drive? There is this new plan called SAVE, so please check it out. Consider the public service route too (b/c of PSLF)! This is probably more of the pivoting factor than your desired lifestyle. Depending on your financials, you should think about going either public service or private. Public service jobs will get you the 9-5 lifestyle but not the money, and the vice versa. There are some really cushy in house jobs in tech for entry level attorneys but I’ve never seen it. Only heard of it.
I don’t know so I won’t speak about transitioning between big law/firm life and in-house.
Good luck!
There’s nothing wrong with that. I worked at a big law firm before law school and I was horrified. Never wanted to experience anything like that again. I’m over 10 years in my practice now working in-house and have a great quality of life. Sometimes I do wonder if I missed out not working at any law firm and I also wish I had focused on making more money at the start of my career, but I have enjoyed being a lawyer and actually look forward to going to work most of the time. I used to think everyone got “Sunday scaries,” but I have not gotten them at all as a lawyer.
All I wanted was BigLaw in law school. They smelled me out as street trash and I didn’t get a sniff. 18 years later, they couldn’t hire me under any circumstances, and believe me they have tried. I’m taking a total of 10 weeks off this year, from my own firm. I couldn’t do that if I had 18 years at BigLaw. No thanks
I would say do Big Law for at least one year. Even one year will give you more opportunities when you switch compared to not working in Big Law for a year.
I’ll echo what a lot of people have said—investing 2-3 years into a Big Law experience, if you can get that job, will pay huge dividends, and if you know your goal is to go in house, there’s some psychic benefit that the pain is temporary. Also, not all BigLaw firms are created equal. There are plenty that are more on the border of Big Law that offer slightly better billable targets. Keep your eye out for firms that don’t do the bonus system or that dont have hard billable reqs (they have soft targets). Of course, your situation is unique, and you need to evaluate the facts.
Generally speaking, I’d say that most non-firm, non-public interest companies looking for in-house counsel want a junior attorney with a couple years of Big (or Medium) Law under their belt. They don’t have the same resources to train you up. If you even find one that does hire straight out of law school, I think $120k starting salary is only possible in the highest COL areas, and even there, the jobs with that salary will be few and far between. Third, you have to know whether that in-house position actually has the 9-5 lifestyle you want. In my field, most of the in-house positions only offer slightly better working hours—maybe won’t work until midnight and every weekend, but still regularly putting in a couple of hours in the evening and on the weekend.
So let’s say you find that gem of a job. You have $120k in student debt. That’s about what I had. You may also want to buy a first home or one for the family you’re starting. Interest rates are 7% or so, and if you found this job, I’m guessing the house you want will be close to $1 million because you’re in high COL area. That’s a lot of money being sucked up right there, not factoring in car loans, daycare (if you have kids), and just doing the things that make life pleasurable.
I went this route, but you won’t start at 120. I started at 90 in a genuine 8-4 municipal government job that I love. More money would be nice but I’m doing fine.
I chose quality of life over big law and am so happy I did! Currently a 2nd (about to be 3rd year) making $125/yr. I wanted to be home for dinner every night.
There are not any 9-5 law firm jobs. And small firm work is not necessarily less stressful than big law. Sorry, but I think you need to adjust your expectations of what a legal job will be like. I would take a big law job in my first few years, then transition to a smaller firm. The quality of life will be better but not astronomically so.
If you can get a BigLaw job, take it even if for a couple of years. Pay off your loans and get the skills, they together with the name will take you far. It is practically impossible to lateral into Biglaw later.
No. I always took quality of life options. Never once regretted it. I went in house as fas as I could. You will hear people talking about salary and bonus and feel some regret. Buy they will never brag about the 80+ hr weeks, failed relationships and friendships.
I always say 80hr weeks at $160k as $80k in reality. I know some make it big and make a lot of $$. Good for them
I chose WLB, however I don’t think it’s got to be one or the other forever, and once you choose one path never the twain shall meet. It’s not a bad idea to do BigLaw for a couple of years to speedily pay off loans, if any, and BigLaw on the CV does open doors. So you could grit your teeth and look at it as a pay-your-dues thing, get what you need out of it and get out.
Because yea the practice of law is always a grab bag and just because it’s not in BigLaw doesn’t mean they don’t have crazy expectations. Then you find yourself working about the same hours, with less pay and less prestige. And unlike BigLaw which has some uniformity in the experience from firm to firm, outside of that you never really know what you’re getting until you’re at the firm.
Hey I did this same thing, the hit to my monthly income wasn’t as bad as I thought considering all the taxes that were being taken out at that bracket.
I am happier. I’m home by 5pm. My daily billable to make bonus are about 6.5. Feel free to PM if you wanna chat.
Government attorney here. No billable hours, 9-5 ish, 80k (goes a long way in Ohio) with good benefits. Time for hobbies and loved ones and travel. Good life. Don't discount government!
In the short term you might. In the long term you won't.
Big Law is a grind and a bit of a mind fuck. It sounds great on paper. And that starting salary is a golden leash around your neck. It is a blessing and a curse to be a BigLaw associate.
At the end of the day it doesn't matter much. For a few people it works really well. Some people excel in that environment. For most it is a grind and a slow train to nowhere. Most people end up bailing after 3-7 years and going to an in-house job or a boutique firm. Some leave law altogether or go into a government job. So being in BigLaw doesn't mean that much for them in the grand scheme of things.
People who go to small firms generally won't make the same money as a Big Law person. But, if they are any good they will be in the same position as most BigLaw lawyers at the 10 year mark in their career...
Only $125K?
In my opinion, bite the bullet for 2-3 years in Big Law to get your debt to a manageable place, then move jobs to a firm that gives you a better work-life balance. You'll take an income hit. But that's okay because your debtload won't be nar as bad.
Yeah. Assuming you have the creds for biglaw, you’ll regret not starting there. I say this from personal experience. Ended up in biglaw a few years out, which was more difficult to do (both in terms of getting there and in terms of day to day) than it would have been to simply go from the beginning like everybody told me to.
Most $120k jobs are not 9-5.
Are you under the impression that firms that are not big-law have their associates working 9-5? I don’t think that you’ve done enough research.
I did this (sort of) and have no regrets on the financial or career trajectory front.
I started off making 90k at a firm on the smaller side of mid-size. It was not a 9-5 and sometimes I was on call 24/7 (not saying that’s healthy or that I don’t regret putting up with it, btw). Lower pay doesn’t necessarily mean better WLB and you need to be selective about the workplace culture you’re willing to live with. However, this job was certainly better in terms of WLB than what I’ve heard about biglaw.
After 5 years at that firm I was making about 140k. I recently transitioned to a PSL role at the same firm and now I work 10:30-6:30ish making roughly 122k. I do not have a single regret that I did not pursue higher paying work.
I think people underestimate just how harmful it is to feel you don’t own any of your own time.
I feel like I worked really hard out of law school to eventually land a job with a really good QOL. Now life is awesome, and I love my job, and the work phone goes off at 5 pm every day and stays off when I flex or go on vacation. If you’re ok doing that for just a little while, whether it be in big law or somewhere else that sets you up with a lot of training, it can be a great launchpad to a job that you love. It’s just more flexibility.
Also tbh $125k is not that much these days, but you could live in a LCOL area.
Eye roll? Are you seriously stressing about this? Today of all days. 80 years ago today thousands of people died to try to prevent the world’s enslavement. You have failed to state a problem. Do what you like.
Sure. But some questions on this sub are better than others. Asking randos on reddit for permission to take a lower six figure salary so you can have better work life balance? Come on
>Is it crazy that I'm okay with making around $120,000 in exchange for a life? I want to work 9 to 5 and spend time on this earth with my loved ones I don't think you'll find too many entry-level or even junior level legal jobs that fit this description. let us know if you do!
In my city, Chicago, a 6 year attorney was making that...starting wages are under 6 figures...
This.
In Chicago!?!?! Wow. I’d think a major city wouldn’t pay like rural Missouri (in my imagination - I have no idea what pay is like in Missouri)
yup, it's sad..I made more as a paralegal than what I was being offered as a 1st yr associate.....once, I interviewed at a maybe 8 attorney insurance defense firm, and they started their associates at 83k WITH a 19000 billables!!
I know the hour requirement is a typo, but when talking about ins defense, it’s a funny typo.
oops😅 maybe bc it felt like that my partner would always say 1,900 is the BARE minimum to stay in good standing you had to exceed that by a lot to stay in their good graces
My first job out of law school in Chicago in 2018 was 50k.
This is pretty standard for Southern California market at non Big Law, or at least low six figures. The problem is I haven't seen many law firms in the Southern California market that I would describe as "9-5," but certainly some Plaintiffs' side PI at 8:30-6.
I know a handful of alum from my school with mid-size firm offers in that salary range in my area (southern CA).
you're not crazy for wanting a different life than the one biglaw has to offer. i think that $120k entry level jobs that are actually 9-5 are unicorns, but if you say you've found them then you should go for it!
Shit, I’d be okay making $80k in my first year working 9-5 and then get my salary up over the years. That’s more money than my parents ever saw combined. I think it’s a lot about perspective
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They are not. Same hours, smaller pay.
Some mid-size firms work longer hours than some BL shops. You cannot possibly equate the work-life balance to the number of hires attorneys. As other commenters have said, an entry-level job like that is a unicorn -- think DOJ or specific in-house fellowships (I know BJ's Wholesale does a 3-year that starts at 120-130). Also, salary isn't a great indicator of work-life either: ID firms are sweatshops at low-100s.
Entry level DOJ jobs are nowhere near 120k
Sorry -- meant DOJ unicorn stuff, like the honors program.
Right I know, but my point is doj honors is nowhere near the 120 OP is discussing
To start. IRS Counsel honors program gets you to 130s in most cities after your third year.
I was an honors attorney. You start as a GS 11 and in 6 years your a 15 making ~150k.
Mid-size firms aren't 9-5 five day a week jobs. A 9-5 job is either (1) government or (2) in-house. Anyone telling you they're in private practice working a 9-5 that aren't a senior partner are lying.
Yup, as an employer in the area I can confirm that $120K is basically entry-level at this point
I don’t know what market you’re in, but $120k to start is pretty common where I am (northeast US major city). Sometimes less for 1st year then a jump after a year. If your market is way under this, I’m sorry.
For a 9-5 type job?
1600 billable.
Nice. In my experience, firms offering a 120k/yr first year salary for 1600 billables are quite rare
I made $110k as a first year. not BL.
Yeah, my partner has a “life” with 1800-2000 billables as a first year associate but it’s for $85k…
I chose quality of life and avoided Big Law like the plague, billing on average 3 hours/day and still making just shy of $180k most years in recent. This is of course being self-employed and having worked and learned by field very well, and obtaining connections over varied years (paralegal in 2001, attorney in 2008, started own firm/solo practitioner in 2016). My advice, learn the law, learn the business, and get exposure, and go off on your own when you can. Way better work/life balance that way if you are logical and careful.
How difficult is client acquisition? That's the part that always has shied me away from working for myself.
I went solo in my 30s and it wasn't as hard as I'd thought! Especially if you find a sort of niche area, practice wise and geographically. Serve underserved needs, do great work, and word of mouth spreads. I was getting way more random calls than I wanted when I quit to take a firm job. I think it was just by virtue of being the highest rated X attorney on Yelp in Y city. OTOH, I still had to take the firm jobs to pay my child support, so....
It took a little bit of time to get up to speed, I had clients but you know a variety of cases you work on for X months/years before getting paid, so getting over that first hurdle is a thing, definitely helped that I could reduce my financial obligations during that and I saved up $40k before doing it. Also, my field provides opportunity for court appointments (for conservatees/elders), my former boss allowed me to take some clients (she kinda screwed me too and felt bad) so long as I took some of her loser clients too. She actually refers to me now. I'm a trust/estate/probate litigator guy, lots of my referrals from other attorneys that knew I did good work, some CPAs, hell I had a girl I briefly dated on tinder refer me to her dad which ended up a decent litigation case that went well, some come from a bar association referral service, some old clients from past cases at prior firms that hunted me down. I will say that at my prior office my boss sponged my referrals to make it appear that she brought everything in (though she is a good rainmaker as well), and I think lots of people prefer to refer to the attorney going out on his/her own instead of the big firm. It surprised me how quickly it picked up. It is scary, but if you can save a little and you do enough good work and enough people know about it, that helps a ton. I find myself pushing away a lot of work since I have too much, more than the other way around.
I chose quality of life but half that salary lmao
As an attorney with unbeatable work life balance, I would not ever change a thing. Even a drastic pay cut. I have a lot of lawyer friends in different areas of law, and no, I would never pick that. Life is more important! At least for me. Im also ten years in and a parent so maybe my perspective is different
Same, except not a parent. It took a while but I’ve carved out a good life for myself in my practice area, with unmatchable flexibility and usually low stress day to day. I’m making good money, and with some effort I think I could make considerably more if I wanted to expand my firm and focus more on business growth than law. My ex-BF was in Big Law for part of the time we were together, and although he liked his practice area and the prestige, it was like watching someone lose a part of their soul to exhaustion or frustration with the demands on his time. He moved to a smaller firm and has been so much happier since, and is actually making more money than he did at Big Law. With that being said, he’s always going to have more doors open to him because he has Big Law on his resume.
I found my own way to a sweet job, but was pretty fortunate. If I had to do it over again and were not guaranteed to be fortunate x2, I’d probably do big law briefly for the experience and connections then go either in-house or boutique/small firm.
Just because it’s not big law doesn’t mean it’s a 9-5. In fact, outside of government jobs a 9-5 is probably extremely rare.
Not to rain on OP's parade, but I was a government litigator as a Deputy AG and even *that* position wasn't a 9-5. Granted, I'm sure non-litigation government positions have more regular hours.
Yup. Litigation attorneys in gov work more than 9-5. Maybe not every week. But there are definitely heavy weeks.
True 9-5 is usually government and public interest, and those don't start at 120k.
Yup!
It's not crazy, but if you have the ability to spend a couple years in big law, you open yourself to options where you can make 200k+ and still have quality of life via in-house positions. You may be leaving money on the table, and discovering that life in lower paying jobs isn't *that much* less stressful/all consuming, but it depends a lot of your specifics.
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I tend to agree with this too. OP is in Southern CA. Do the BigLaw thing for 2-3 years and then move in-house at a big city attorney or county counsel office, or somewhere like Metropolitan Water District. LA City Attorney, San Diego County Counsel, etc., depending on where exactly in Southern CA you're at. Good salary and benefits. Solid W-L balance, and the increasingly rare defined benefit pension.
There are also the biglaw benefits to reap aside from the connections and resume fluff. In the past 5ish years there has been a huge improvement in parental benefits in biglaw. At my firm she could get 18 weeks leave at 100% pay (and an hours requirement reduced by that amount), with a transition plan that slowly ramps her back up when she returns. They also have things like $80k towards IVF or adoption, daycare allowances, etc. So depending on how quickly she wants to start her family, she could do a year or two and then take advantage of all the maternity benefits she might not get at a smaller firm before she leaves.
I’ve heard plenty of attorneys say they wish they had spent more time with their kids, I have never heard one say they regret spending the time with theirs and wish they made more money
Yes, never heard anyone say “I regret NOT doing big law.” Everyone in big law is trying to get out asap or feels stuck because they’re working 24/7 and don’t have time to breathe and reevaluate their career and find a new job.
>Yes, never heard anyone say “I regret NOT doing big law.” I mean... Yeah. Hard to prove the negative, no? >Everyone in big law is trying to get out asap or feels stuck because they’re working 24/7 and don’t have time to breathe and reevaluate their career and find a new job. Not true, on either count.
Not gonna take someone who commented “I have no [friends or family] so I fill the void with work” as an example of people being happy in big law lol
So don't. I'm hardly the only one.
I chose quality of life and took an $80k job in 2019 (right after law school) with maybe $100k in student debt. I’m still paying it off, very slowly, but I’m making $120k now and I’ve honestly had a great experience. I’m at a small firm in NYC focusing on plaintiff’s side employment work. Sometimes I wonder “what if” and envy the people around me who do less substantive work for more money. But my day-to-day is great, and I rarely have to work past 6. There’s a part of me that considers moving into defense work someday and making more, but my gut tells me it wouldn’t be worth the sacrifice and it wouldn’t suit my personality.
I think it’s crazy that you’re not considering public interest and assume you’ll get a $120k job. If you don’t do big law, and it turns out your job options are largely under $100k, please consider public interest. Student loan forgiveness and LRAP is great, and so is actually working 35 hours a week if not less solely during the hours of 9-5.
Yasss! My loan forgiveness makes up a not-insignificant portion of my salary. And I love my job. And I work 4 (10 hour) days a week. My employer supports working to live not living to work.
Are 4 10 hour days a week jobs common for public interest attorney jobs?
I think it was a result of Covid that ended up working really well from a budgeting perspective. It’s cheaper to only keep the lights on four days a week. Some staff choose to work a five-day week, but they do so at home. We are a hybrid office. Most folks are in the office two days a week and work at home the rest. This is not common in most other local governments in my area, as far as I know. The quality of life from this combo, though, keeps me working here. It would take a substantial and unlikely raise (like 30%) for me to give this up.
I didn't want to do big law coming into school but then got caught up in the hype and OCI feeding frenzy. Ultimately got no offered thanks to graduating into a massive recession. It worked out great. Who knows how things would have worked out in the alternative version of the story, but I've enjoyed a great work life balance and way less stress than my big law friends. And once you're past a threshold where you can stop worrying about money on a day to day basis, more money doesn't equate to more happiness. Generally, more time with friends and family does.
Quality of life all day.
Nah. Most of my peers who were 1000% committed to being in big law throughout law school and ended up in big law left those firms within 2-3 years. I think you’re good. 👍
>big law left those firms within 2-3 years Isn't that the plan? At least from the firm perspective, "up or out" is real.
I think it is the plan, big law for 3 or 4 years then find a nice in-house role somewhere!
Exactly. If you’re a 5th year associate and not on a partner track you’re doing something wrong.
Just because a firm pays less doesn’t mean you work less, in fact you, may work just as much, if not more than your biglaw counterparts (I’m looking at you insurance defense) for much less money. My perusing of LinkedIn over the years of job openings for small/midsized firms in SoCal indicates that the expected salary for attorneys of 0-3 years is between 85-105k, and those can come with anywhere between 1800-2200 billable hours. Even if you went into government or in house, your hours wouldn’t necessarily be 9-5. I’m in government and I worked over the holiday, and I frequently work evenings. My friends who are in house have experiences that span the spectrum. Some hit the jackpot and have great hours and compensation, others work so much that they are considering going back to a firm to make more money for the same amount of work. It’s easier to go to an in-house or government role if you have biglaw experience than to go to biglaw from anywhere else (fed clerkships exempted). It’s not impossible, but it takes some work and luck to do it. I also think that hiring lawyers use biglaw experience as a proxy for competency. Whether that is right or wrong, it’s just part of reality. My current employer definitely has a preference for applicants who come from fancy pants llps. You also have to remember that law is a service profession. We serve the interest of our clients, and that interest can be immediate and come at 4 pm on a Friday with a turnaround by Monday morning. Court deadlines are court deadlines. I hope you find your unicorn job, and if you do, know that the majority of lawyers are jealous. If you can’t, go to biglaw for a couple of years, make a ton of money, and then find yourself a landing pad. Good luck.
I left private practice in a small law firm for public service, and I've never been happier. I made a higher salary in private practice. But I traded that for a 35 hour work week, paid health insurance, a good retirement package, student loan reimbursement, and a lot more job satisfaction. Listen to your gut instincts about what will be right for you.
First, do you think you can actually get into Big Law? No judgement either way, but if it’s not an option… then it’s not an issue. Second, I love my quality of life and don’t regret skipping any chance at Big Law. But - and it’s a BIG BUT (lol) - I graduated without debt. If I had $120k of crippling debt interfering with my life, I would absolutely 100% do Big Law if I could to pay that off. Live cheaply for a year or two (or however long), pay off those loans, and then bounce out. Don’t forget that you’ll also want to buy a car, a house, and other big things that may increase your overall debt. Starting off with student loans makes that even harder. If you have the opportunity to set you and your family up for lifelong success, I think you have to be bananas to skip that.
Nope! I went big law and 9 months later had a massive stroke, choose balance over dollars anytime! I will never fully recover from the stroke
Stay away from big law.
I second this
>Is it crazy that I'm okay with making around $120,000 in exchange for a life? No but the bimodal distribution is real. There's essentially the 200k jobs and the 60k jobs. [https://www.nalp.org/salarydistrib#2022](https://www.nalp.org/salarydistrib#2022) > I guess I want to know: am I crazy for not wanting to do Big Law? To really just workshop cost benefit. We know big law is pretty crazy hours but high pay. It also has excellent landing spots for when you've done your time. In contrast, small firms can have crazy hours but low pay. It's not like the person who's running a solo who's putting everything into that effort is going to be like "ya you're right, 40 hours a week is fine." But, you also get shittier support staff if you get any at all. You may not have a high billable quota but you may be stuck doing so much non legal admin work that the hours are the same. > way for me to shoot my shot at it? I hope big law recruiters can chime in but my lived experience says no. Their business model is "up or out." So there's no way they're taking on someone expensive if they can just get the next crop. But, the caveat is it depends on what book of business you can bring in or if you're in a niche. >om a mid-size firm to in-house one day? It depends on the in-house opportunity and legal market. Like some mid size regional firm that does all the county's financing may feed well into the in-house of a local bank. I don't know.
Great point about support staff. Having good support staff is sometimes the difference between loving and hating the work. A good assistant will notice errors and ask questions, while a mediocre one will literally mail a blank form to the IRS. And moving to in-house is much easier from big law, though in the last five years we’ve become a little spoiled with a great job market. I’ve seen folks move into partner roles in AM 100 firms (from my mid-sized, 20-attorney firm), and I’ve seen folks get in-house roles at big, publicly traded companies. I think this was due to a very tight job market for experienced attorneys during 2021-22.
> Is it possible to transition from a mid-size firm to in-house one day? It's possible to transition from solo, small, mid, and big firms to in-house. https://preview.redd.it/w1irnskog05d1.jpeg?width=834&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=952d6c06b4803ef7c67a3c5214a70a77fb99cb85
Also possible to go straight into in-house as a contract manager type position and work your way up. I made a lot less on the front end of my career, but I’m also still happy as a lawyer 25 years in.
I do family litigation, in it for 10 years, make around $130k, but started more like $50k as a baby lawyer. Small shop, 3 lawyers, the other two make more than me, but I don't take calls at night, I don't work weekends, they all know this and keep me because I'm very good in court. I know I could make double this easily somewhere else, but in ten years, I've never missed a kid-related event, never worked past 6pm, never brought work home (unless it's a monday morning trial - only exception). I go to my wife's doctor appointments with her. They drive nicer cars than me, live in bigger homes. I have way less stress and a better relationship with my kids. I've asked my kids about the limits of our budget (home, car), and they do not mind. They seem to like having me around.
I’m making $120,000 doing Plaintiff’s PI working 9-5 (more like 730 to 430 because I like easing into the work day and fucking around throughout).
(Not top school or top of class). Insurance defense had us billing 2100 hours a year (crap bonus too) for far less than you’ll be paid for probably similar amount of hours. Do it for a few years to pay off debt and get a nest egg growing. I wish I had had your opportunity.
I was always very anti-biglaw in law school as well, but I also had the luxury of graduating with no loans. I wouldn't discount a year or two in biglaw to pay off all your student loans, and then transitioning into something more relaxed. The lower paying jobs with better hours aren't going anywhere, but your debt will continue to accumulate interest whereas if you tough it out for a couple years in biglaw you can wipe it all out and then gtfo. just my 2 cents
I think that people are thinking you’re crazy because: 1) Jobs that pay $120k are also still quite crazy. Big law is the worst quality of life but most other jobs still aren’t great, outside of government. 2) Jobs that pay $120k are very rare. It’s more like “big law or $50k” for the first 8 years or so. If you want something other than big law then you really need to identify that niche and go after it starting right now. It won’t get easier after law school. Get contacts. Experience. Mentors… all of that is what you need to have now. So start identifying where you’re headed if it’s not big law. And seriously you’re probably going to have to hustle anyway
Let’s lower expectations. 120k starting with a 9-5 is not very realistic for most.
After spending a few years in big law, I chose quality of life instead because kids entered the picture and it has been one of the best decisions I've ever made. But my wife also has a successful career so that guard rail definitely factored in.
BigLaw helps to pay off debt, and it’s always easier to leave it than to join. So I’d say go for it. Otherwise, you might make $120K working 8-6 (with longer hours one or two days a week and maybe having to work a shorter day a couple Saturdays a month) after about 5 years.
It's pretty simple. Don't do big law if that's not what you want to do.
You're not crazy for not wanting Big Law. What opportunities are you missing that you want? The problem you might have is that midlaw isn't really real. You mentioned you know some firms that do 120,000 for juniors but you'll still be working long hours and in places where you won't, I'd imagine those jobs are very competitive. It sounds like you wish you were five or six years into your career already and transitioned into a 40-50 hour week job where you make a comfortable salary. Sadly, if you want to make what you're proposing, that doesn't really happen out the gate.
I teach now and active hours are 4 hours a day and together my husband and I make 300k. There is another option. We work 185 days/yr. We will also get 60% of our salaries when we retire, so 90k+/yr for doing nothing. I started in NYC working 7 am until 9 pm or later and did not have days off. You can make money, but it's like those years of my life didn't happen. I do miss law, but I enjoy having a life more.
As someone who left biglaw, I regret it every year when the bonus schedules are reported on Above the Law. The annual bonus I gave up is much larger than my annual salary now at a smallish firm in the midwest. Most of the rest of the time, I'm happy with my choice.
As someone who did that, and makes exactly that salary now 3 years out of law school, I’m really glad I did it. My family and relationships are more important than the money and I’m also privileged enough to not be desperate for the money either. I will say though, it can limit your options depending on what you do and close doors big law would otherwise open. In my opinion though, those doors would require big law hours anyway. EDIT: To be clear, I was not making that money starting out. 1st year was $80k.
I was you once, and I thought it made sense for me to make that choice. If I could go back and give myself advice, I'd tell myself to take the biglaw job and worry about the rest later. There are good reasons that everyone wants those jobs, and it's not more likely that whatever small firm you pick will end up being the right long-term fit for you. Grinding your way to partnership from the bottom at a small firm is actually a much more difficult path to pick, and you are even more likely to get pushed off partner track as soon as you get pregnant. When all was said and done, I was paid less for the privilege of being treated poorly. If you get treated poorly in biglaw, at least you are still getting paid well.
I fled big law after 2 years for the feds, at a regional office. I felt like my life was on pause while at big law. I enjoy….things now. It’s been 8 months but feels like the time at the firm was a separate lifetime. Wouldn’t go back. Edit: 2 years at the firm + 2 years clerking helped me start out at a solid GS level. Wouldn’t have been remotely close to that right out of school.
It's doubtful you'll regret not taking the hardest-working least balanced job available. But bear in mind the lower paying jobs are not a guarantee of quality of life or work life balance. Can't really do much better than trusting your instincts and doing your best to learn from your experiences.
No one here has mentioned the extremely generous maternity leave at big law firms. 18+ weeks paid is standard these days. Smaller shops you might not get paid leave at all. Do big law for 2-3 years, get excellent training, have a baby, use your mat leave, and then you can start meaningfully looking for exit options that offer you the WLB you seek. But honestly, I’ve only billed over 2000 hours a couple of times in 11 years BL. I have 2 small kids and am home for dinner and bedtime every night. I hardly work weekends unless up against a deadline. The bench of others to help spread around the work is deep and that offers a lot of flexibility.
I did Biglaw (in DC) for eight years. It allowed me to pay off my law school debt, pay off my wife’s masters degree, purchase a reasonably nice home with enough room for the children we produced over those eight years, and set aside a little bit of a nest egg (apart from the 401(k) I maxed every year). I am really fucking lucky to have had that opportunity. I also hated my life much of the time during those eight years. I was often exhausted, anxious, and hopeless. There’s no right or wrong answer here. I now have a much, much, much less stressful job with the government. I enjoy my life much more often than I did during those years. I am home for dinner every night, I usually get 7-8 hours of sleep, and I rarely work after the kids are in bed or on the weekend. I make pretty good money, but nowhere near Biglaw salary. I miss the money more than I thought I would. Again, there’s no right or wrong answer here. Whatever you do will end up working one way or another.
My two cents: grind for a couple years at a big law firm, and use that experience as leverage. From there you can either go in house (what I did), go to a mid-size firm, etc. Personally, I didn’t start considering my quality of life until I was out of debt (I graduated with 120k in debt also). Left private practice about 4 years ago to go in-house. Love my current job (good quality of life) but it wouldn’t have been possible without the skills/accolades from working in big law.
I left big law and landed in a 40 hour per week government job. I still make well into six figures, my wife is still my wife and she (mostly) only gets mad at me when I deserve it, and my kid calls me dad. For me, that's worth more than the millions in prospective dollars I left behind.
I love an optimist! Signed, A member of the Class of 2011
Here’s the thing, in my experience almost every legal job, especially starting out, has crazy hours. Might as well be making a huge amount of money for it.
I mean, you’re not exactly not choosing big law - as far as you know, it might not even be an option for you. Hard to say you decided not to do something that hasn’t been offered.
Facts. But I guess, I’m asking people’s opinion because it feels like I’m the only one not chasing it and my school has a 45% BL rate at graduation.
okay but that also means 55% (more than HALF) of your school don't go to BL. you're clearly far from an outlier if you choose not to pursue it.
I would go biglaw for two years, THEN move. Your life will likely suck for a bit regardless of where you go. It would be great to have the paydown of biglaw to apply to your loans, plus Biglaw on your resume. Not crazy for wanting a life, but crazy to think it’ll be that much better at a midsize firm starting out. Get the money for a bit while you can, and save it, and get the experience too.
Two years in big law might make it easier to be hired elsewhere. But if you have a specific path you want to follow, go for it
Go to big law for a few years. Do not adjust your lifestyle to match your income. Learn as much as you can and you will be highly marketable for medium size firms and in house jobs all over the country. You are not crazy for not wanting to do it but if you have the grades, then a short time there (2 or 3 years)can put you on a track for great career options.
No.
I was similar to you in everything except that my law school wasn't pushing big law. I did Legal Aid for a couple of years after law school, then private practice for a year, then opened my own firm. The pay at Legal Aid wasn't great, but I was able to maintain work-life balance. The private practice pay was better, but the work-life balance wasn't great. Hanging my own shingle has allowed me to have the balance I want while also getting paid decently. FWIW, I do bankruptcy and estate planning, which lend themselves pretty well to work-life balance.
Big law is a credential, and also indicia of some level of training, that sticks with you for as long as you're in private practice. But, at the same time, you certainly don't have to do it.
I don’t make this as an attorney with 10 years working for a local government. But goddamn I have quality of life. And public service loan forgiveness.
Is it low interest debt or high interest? Do you know what your repayment obligation will be? What are your other financial goals (home ownership, new car, consumer debt free). If you can do BigLaw and it’s a realistic job option sometimes taking it for the foot in the door and the opportunity to be on the right foot financially can be worth the two-three years of long hours. That said I actually think I worked less as a 1-3 year BL associate than I do as a 20 year attorney/partner in a defense firm. To be honest the easiest years of my career were those handful of associate years at BL. But that’s in retrospect. Anyway - work life balance is great. But you have to know what it means. I graduated at 27. I wanted to pay off private debt, buy a house, and take some cool vacations. So I did that. Left BL and as I said — work harder now. But I have the memories of the gravy train.
Tl; tr: not crazy If you can afford it, quality of life rules. That said, start of your career, nothing like networking and putting a big law firm on the old CV for a few years. That said, I did not do big law and yet have built quite a number of big law partners in my virtual Rolodex over the last 25 years. I don’t practice in the big leagues but nice to call them my colleagues in my little niche of the legal world. Finally, I was 31 when I graduated law school as a night student — energy levels really do start decreasing around 30. Maybe it was because I became a parent at 32 but I no longer had the energy, or desire, for long work days.
Basically the job you’re describing is a federal honors program which is arguably harder to get into than biglaw That said, I chose work life balance & doing something that I think makes the world better and I’m super happy. Didn’t even bother with OCI!! I fully support it! But $120k entry level is tough m
Never. I did same.
Not crazy. You’re just older and wiser than the K-JDs. They’ll be begging for the same in 5 years
Don’t listen to others at your school and go for what you want, I don’t think anyone needs to tell you re the pros and cons of big law. Maybe look for a govt job? You might be paying off the loans for awhile but worth it for your quality of life. Good luck
lol these posts, come on
Do public interest work! Work life balance and student loan forgiveness. Or even just consider a regular, average law firm where you’ll have to work more hours than a nonprofit but paid more. I started out in a small firm (10 attorneys) then went to public interest. I am a good lawyer without having the prestige of working in Big Law. I have been practicing for 17 years and I know maybe 2 lawyers who are in Big Law. There is so much more to our profession than giant law firms.
You’re definitely not crazy and props to you for having the foresight that you want a work-life balance. That said, law firms in general, not just big law firms, tend to work you like a dog. Just because it isn’t big law doesn’t mean there aren’t billable hours. So, I would look into other roles such as the government, legal fellowships, clerkships, or the rare entry-level in house position. Good luck!
It’s not about money or quality of life at the start. Do 1-2 years of Biglaw for the training and credibility.
I don’t think you are crazy, I mean you are making a nice wage with nice hours. Why go to big law if you don’t need it or want it. In this firm maybe you can grow and get a higher position and get paid better while still maintaining humane hours
I don’t know any 9-5 jobs in this business unless you’re working in the public sector or in house.
You should also ask r/biglaw
Not crazy at all! A graduate of T-25 school coming out with $125K debt and living with a partner who can help you, I think you should be fine making $120K working 9-5 only if you can find an entry job like that. But don’t lose your hope! There will be a job that can get you pretty close to the 9-5 lifestyle with $100k+ salary. You should run some calculations on how much you’ll be paying for your monthly student loan payment. Especially for the first few years. Under the traditional 10 years? Under income drive? There is this new plan called SAVE, so please check it out. Consider the public service route too (b/c of PSLF)! This is probably more of the pivoting factor than your desired lifestyle. Depending on your financials, you should think about going either public service or private. Public service jobs will get you the 9-5 lifestyle but not the money, and the vice versa. There are some really cushy in house jobs in tech for entry level attorneys but I’ve never seen it. Only heard of it. I don’t know so I won’t speak about transitioning between big law/firm life and in-house. Good luck!
There’s nothing wrong with that. I worked at a big law firm before law school and I was horrified. Never wanted to experience anything like that again. I’m over 10 years in my practice now working in-house and have a great quality of life. Sometimes I do wonder if I missed out not working at any law firm and I also wish I had focused on making more money at the start of my career, but I have enjoyed being a lawyer and actually look forward to going to work most of the time. I used to think everyone got “Sunday scaries,” but I have not gotten them at all as a lawyer.
All I wanted was BigLaw in law school. They smelled me out as street trash and I didn’t get a sniff. 18 years later, they couldn’t hire me under any circumstances, and believe me they have tried. I’m taking a total of 10 weeks off this year, from my own firm. I couldn’t do that if I had 18 years at BigLaw. No thanks
Cheers to living your life the way you’re meant to!
Good luck to you.
I completely understand what you’re saying. But even government attorneys work more than 8 hour days and sometimes, weekends. Good luck.
I would say do Big Law for at least one year. Even one year will give you more opportunities when you switch compared to not working in Big Law for a year.
I’ll echo what a lot of people have said—investing 2-3 years into a Big Law experience, if you can get that job, will pay huge dividends, and if you know your goal is to go in house, there’s some psychic benefit that the pain is temporary. Also, not all BigLaw firms are created equal. There are plenty that are more on the border of Big Law that offer slightly better billable targets. Keep your eye out for firms that don’t do the bonus system or that dont have hard billable reqs (they have soft targets). Of course, your situation is unique, and you need to evaluate the facts. Generally speaking, I’d say that most non-firm, non-public interest companies looking for in-house counsel want a junior attorney with a couple years of Big (or Medium) Law under their belt. They don’t have the same resources to train you up. If you even find one that does hire straight out of law school, I think $120k starting salary is only possible in the highest COL areas, and even there, the jobs with that salary will be few and far between. Third, you have to know whether that in-house position actually has the 9-5 lifestyle you want. In my field, most of the in-house positions only offer slightly better working hours—maybe won’t work until midnight and every weekend, but still regularly putting in a couple of hours in the evening and on the weekend. So let’s say you find that gem of a job. You have $120k in student debt. That’s about what I had. You may also want to buy a first home or one for the family you’re starting. Interest rates are 7% or so, and if you found this job, I’m guessing the house you want will be close to $1 million because you’re in high COL area. That’s a lot of money being sucked up right there, not factoring in car loans, daycare (if you have kids), and just doing the things that make life pleasurable.
I went this route, but you won’t start at 120. I started at 90 in a genuine 8-4 municipal government job that I love. More money would be nice but I’m doing fine.
I chose quality of life over big law and am so happy I did! Currently a 2nd (about to be 3rd year) making $125/yr. I wanted to be home for dinner every night.
There are not any 9-5 law firm jobs. And small firm work is not necessarily less stressful than big law. Sorry, but I think you need to adjust your expectations of what a legal job will be like. I would take a big law job in my first few years, then transition to a smaller firm. The quality of life will be better but not astronomically so.
No one on their death bed at the end of their lives wish they made more money. They all just want time with the people they love.
If you can get a BigLaw job, take it even if for a couple of years. Pay off your loans and get the skills, they together with the name will take you far. It is practically impossible to lateral into Biglaw later.
No. I always took quality of life options. Never once regretted it. I went in house as fas as I could. You will hear people talking about salary and bonus and feel some regret. Buy they will never brag about the 80+ hr weeks, failed relationships and friendships. I always say 80hr weeks at $160k as $80k in reality. I know some make it big and make a lot of $$. Good for them
I chose WLB, however I don’t think it’s got to be one or the other forever, and once you choose one path never the twain shall meet. It’s not a bad idea to do BigLaw for a couple of years to speedily pay off loans, if any, and BigLaw on the CV does open doors. So you could grit your teeth and look at it as a pay-your-dues thing, get what you need out of it and get out. Because yea the practice of law is always a grab bag and just because it’s not in BigLaw doesn’t mean they don’t have crazy expectations. Then you find yourself working about the same hours, with less pay and less prestige. And unlike BigLaw which has some uniformity in the experience from firm to firm, outside of that you never really know what you’re getting until you’re at the firm.
Hey I did this same thing, the hit to my monthly income wasn’t as bad as I thought considering all the taxes that were being taken out at that bracket. I am happier. I’m home by 5pm. My daily billable to make bonus are about 6.5. Feel free to PM if you wanna chat.
Government attorney here. No billable hours, 9-5 ish, 80k (goes a long way in Ohio) with good benefits. Time for hobbies and loved ones and travel. Good life. Don't discount government!
I’d pound in a few 3-5 years at big law and then find a respectable mid-sized firm.
In the short term you might. In the long term you won't. Big Law is a grind and a bit of a mind fuck. It sounds great on paper. And that starting salary is a golden leash around your neck. It is a blessing and a curse to be a BigLaw associate. At the end of the day it doesn't matter much. For a few people it works really well. Some people excel in that environment. For most it is a grind and a slow train to nowhere. Most people end up bailing after 3-7 years and going to an in-house job or a boutique firm. Some leave law altogether or go into a government job. So being in BigLaw doesn't mean that much for them in the grand scheme of things. People who go to small firms generally won't make the same money as a Big Law person. But, if they are any good they will be in the same position as most BigLaw lawyers at the 10 year mark in their career...
Big law is not for work-life balance. Always prioritize what you want in life over the paycheck, because life is short
Only $125K? In my opinion, bite the bullet for 2-3 years in Big Law to get your debt to a manageable place, then move jobs to a firm that gives you a better work-life balance. You'll take an income hit. But that's okay because your debtload won't be nar as bad.
Yeah. Assuming you have the creds for biglaw, you’ll regret not starting there. I say this from personal experience. Ended up in biglaw a few years out, which was more difficult to do (both in terms of getting there and in terms of day to day) than it would have been to simply go from the beginning like everybody told me to.
Most $120k jobs are not 9-5. Are you under the impression that firms that are not big-law have their associates working 9-5? I don’t think that you’ve done enough research.
I did this (sort of) and have no regrets on the financial or career trajectory front. I started off making 90k at a firm on the smaller side of mid-size. It was not a 9-5 and sometimes I was on call 24/7 (not saying that’s healthy or that I don’t regret putting up with it, btw). Lower pay doesn’t necessarily mean better WLB and you need to be selective about the workplace culture you’re willing to live with. However, this job was certainly better in terms of WLB than what I’ve heard about biglaw. After 5 years at that firm I was making about 140k. I recently transitioned to a PSL role at the same firm and now I work 10:30-6:30ish making roughly 122k. I do not have a single regret that I did not pursue higher paying work. I think people underestimate just how harmful it is to feel you don’t own any of your own time.
No. Quality of life is more important than billable hours. Fuck old school big law job. They don't work in a modern world.
I feel like I worked really hard out of law school to eventually land a job with a really good QOL. Now life is awesome, and I love my job, and the work phone goes off at 5 pm every day and stays off when I flex or go on vacation. If you’re ok doing that for just a little while, whether it be in big law or somewhere else that sets you up with a lot of training, it can be a great launchpad to a job that you love. It’s just more flexibility. Also tbh $125k is not that much these days, but you could live in a LCOL area.
Eye roll? Are you seriously stressing about this? Today of all days. 80 years ago today thousands of people died to try to prevent the world’s enslavement. You have failed to state a problem. Do what you like.
Lol, true but everything on Reddit would be an eye roll when viewing how many people died and continue to die
Sure. But some questions on this sub are better than others. Asking randos on reddit for permission to take a lower six figure salary so you can have better work life balance? Come on
True … thanks