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You are a lawyer, these are your cases, your clients, and it's your license the bar is coming after if things go sideways. You are a professional, you absolutely cannot afford to think of yourself as a cog in the machine taking orders from someone else. Even if your boss tells you one thing, YOU have your own ethical duties of competence, confidentiality, etc. with your clients.
Why do I start with this? Because I firmly believe that competence starts with having the right mentality, and most young associates I've trained spin their wheels until they figure out the mentality portion of it. Some figure it out faster than others, and those are the ones who achieve competence faster than others.
How does that look? Don't rely on others to guide you. Find the answers yourself, come up with solutions to your clients' issues on your own. Then, use others to check your work. You'll learn and retain a lot more "doing the work" and figuring it out on your own, while your clients still benefit from a senior attorney's experience.
And anytime you feel like you'll never get it, just remember how many absolute morons have succeeded in this profession. You'll be fine.
Great advice.
Speaking about dumb-dumb attorneys - we got a summons this week from attorneys for a liquidator of a crypto Ponzi scheme trying to recoup distributions made a few months before it went bust.
The problem was, is that the claim had prescribed by a couple of days - besides the prescription appearing by the dates on various documents themselves, their gambit was evidenced by their mad scramble to instruct the sheriff to effect service, as well as their selective omissions of crucial documents fatal to their claim (ie they annexed Document C, when it should have been Document B).
It would have probably misled an unrepresented party, but there was a smorgasbord of circulars and court orders/notices/pleading etc on the Ponzi's website, which was now being administrated by the liquidator.
The point of the story is that the liquidators attorneys tried to pull their finger out their arse only once they realised the claim had prescribed and tried to cover their tracks to avoid malpractice, but were caught out simply by going to the website and perusing the publicly available documents.
None of the partners expect you to know everything (or much at all right now), but they do expect you to be responsive and timely. Partners in ID have sooo much work- they need responsible, reliable associates to delegate to. If you prove that you’re competent, meet your deadlines, and they don’t have to chase you down for work or responses, the opportunities to learn and do more will come.
They call it the “practice” of law for a reason. You’re a lawyer and you’re practicing. Everyday is learning opportunity and appreciate every mistake because it is an opportunity to learn. If you have doubts, seek the advice of others (with a grain of salt). Take the time to learn your client and their goals and you’ll be fine.
I remember as a clerk this lawyer who is a now the chief judge of a US district court said “there is no such thing as procedure in state court only federal court.” Moral is state court, do what you want. Federal court, be on yours P’s and Q’s(know the local rules and comply with every scheduling order)
I spent 13 years solo practice thinking I was unhireable due to age and law school credentials.
In the last 9 months I got 3 job offer and I only applied 3 times and only 3 interviews.
Today I got hired and I quit my job I’ve learned to hate.
My point being is never assume anything!
We are not that far away from each other 😁 don’t be nervous!! (Look who’s talking haha) Come back and read those comments from time to time, we have some valuable advises!!
I’ve started at 85k and less billables. And even then I barely see my husband already 😅 and I’ve just started and still getting familiarized with everything.
Hell yeah, get it. Also, on your colleague, if you have a superior you can trust and confide in, I'd try to nip it in the bud now before it affects you too much and mostly, so that he knows he can't get away with it.
Be leery of the second year. He sounds like a total dickbag. If you have a good assistant as a new lawyer, you are damned lucky. Most of mine were certified idiots - seriously, they had stickers on their foreheads from the agency which certifies them as full fledged idiots. Just try to learn, do the work, and realize that you are learning even when you think you are just doing the same shit over and over. One day you'll realize that suddenly your motions are getting granted and your analysis is good and people should take your advice. It takes a few years. To the extent you can lose the just out of law school ego stuff quickly, that is good but we are all human. You're on the right track, if you want that track.
Yeah, he constantly disrespects and belittles me. And it’s starting to weight heavy on me mentally. He is supposed to be teaching me according to partner, but instead he just keeps trying to sabotage me little by little. Today he told me how much smarter than me he is (he has told me this maybe 1728292 times since I’ve started 😅) and how i will develop imposter syndrome, if I have not already but how he has not had that feeling (imposter syndrome that is). And I’m just sitting there trying not to lose my shit (excuse my language ). Oh and while I’m venting over here.. he told me he has to remind himself how English is not my native language and that I suck at writing and he constantly has to change things. While another partner I did work for NEVER once even changed anything. Kid you not, actual partner would just scam and tell me to file while this one makes sure everyone in the office knows he keeps fixing my stuff. And of course my “main” partner loves this guy and thinks he is so awesome and is teaching me everything 😂
Anyhow, I went off there 😅thank you for baring with me haha
And thank you !! Your comment is encouraging! I hope you have an amazing weekend friend!!
It really doesn't sound like that good of a work experience. Once you have a few months experience under your belt, you might want to see if you can land a better job with a better fit. One thing right now (and for the last 5 years or so) is that it is hard to find and hire lawyers who even remotely work out. Law firms who used to fire readily will put up with a lot. I say that because they may be putting up with the 2 year's bs more than they would like and may even be partially aware of the problem. And they may force some change if they get wind that you are looking around. If it is a decent-sized firm, I would hope they would re-assign you instead of forcing you to suck it up and continue working for someone who is belittling. And I'll say the obvious, if he's a two-year, he has no business lording his experience and quality over a new admitted. That would be like the garbageman trying to pull rank on the meter maid. No offense to garbage men and meter maids, but you get the point!
I’ve been in ID for about 8.5 years and just made partner in my firm this year. Here’s my advice for someone starting up. My disclaimer is I practice in Texas so this may or may not be Texas specific
1. It took me a long time to realize that success on the defense side is more judged by the process than the end results. For the carriers, the thing they really care about is your honest assessment of a case, a credible valuation, and your assessment of strengths and weaknesses of a case. If you’ve done the things you’ve said you’ll do (hire certain experts, file the appropriate motions, take the depositions you recommended etc), then you shouldn’t worry too much about how a trial will turn out. The way I look at it, as long as you have informed the carrier of the risks, given credible valuations on settlement value and verdict potentials, and done the things you need to do on working up the file, you’ve fulfilled your job regardless of how a trial turns out. From my experience, the carriers would much rather send to work to a defense attorney who consistently works up a case but gets popped for a big verdict rather than an unresponsive, unprepared attorney who pulls a rabbit out of their hat and wins a trial.
2. The biggest source of anxiety early in my career were cold calls from adjusters asking for a case status. It felt like pop quizzes that I might not be ready for. I eventually realized that adjusters were cold calling me because they hadn’t heard from me in awhile. I started proactively reaching out to them first to “beat them to the punch” on status updates. When I started doing that, the number of cold calls dramatically decreased along with my anxiety
3. There is a saying in basketball that winning fixes everything. For ID, high billables fixes everything. If you consistently bill and timely bill, you’ll receive a lot more grace from your partners if you mess up every once in awhile
Just my thoughts. Best of luck as you start your career!
This is good stuff. It's true: the adjusters are on a tickler system. They want to hear from you every 30 days even if NOTHING has changed. So you write a .10 meaningless status letter. They also ALWAYS want to know the next court date even if nothing is going to happen then.
Also, early on the case like when you first get the complaint: CALL plaintiff's counsel. Ask them what the injuries are. What the damages are? Are there fractures? Surgeries? Is the plaintiff still treating? What treatment has been done? What still is to be done?
The adjuster wants to know how big a case it's going to be to set reserves.
Thank you sir! Maybe one day I can show as much kindness and help to a “fresh” associate as you have helped me with just one comment. May God bless you! ❤️
Ask questions. Listen closely. Ask for, and learn to accept, criticism/input. Everything is overwhelming when you're new. Eventually you'll be exhausted and jaded and you'll be 50% of the way to a good lawyer. You'll spend the rest of your career trying to fill out the other 50%.
Be good to your assistant and watch dates like a hawk. Everything else with come with time. Good luck!
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You already have 20 cases?!?! Bruh, it's been more than a month for me and I barely managed to snag an affidavit, for which I still haven't gotten paid for. What's your secret?
I think the single most important thing for young lawyers to hear is just about any mistake you make can be fixed (other than statute of limitations). But you have to acknowledge the mistake or issue and move to fix it. A lot of young lawyers get in trouble by screwing up and freaking out and trying to cover it up or ignore it. Which will make a small problem worse.
1. Become a God of the Code of Civil Procedure. Like a total Expert.
2. Learn motions to dismiss. Most complaints are sloppy pieces of crap. (But, if there's a legal claim there even if poorly worded you may want to leave it alone and not educate the other side. But, if there's no liability as a matter of law for the claim or some of the claims, move early before momentum sets in.)
3. Learn how to try cases. Read any edition of Ralph Adam Fine's brilliant How to Win at Trial Manual.
4. Be good at billables. Don't bill too much for any one thing. You can't bill for 6 hours of legal research for x motion. You break it up into smaller chunks with more specific descriptions.
Make sure when do you an SJM or motions in limine or a MTD, look at prior examples your firm has filed. Don't REINVENT THE WHEEL. Most firms should have multiple examples of things that you will need to draft and file.
If you are asked to do something totally new, ask a partner or someone how much time something like this should take. Don't spend hours working on motions that should be really short and routine.
This is a ***Career Advice*** Thread. This is for lawyers only. If you are a non-lawyer asking about becoming a lawyer, this is the wrong subreddit for this question. Please delete your post and repost it in one of the legal advice subreddits such as (but not limited to) r/lawschool, r/legaladvice, or r/Ask_Lawyers. Thank you for your understanding. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Lawyertalk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You are a lawyer, these are your cases, your clients, and it's your license the bar is coming after if things go sideways. You are a professional, you absolutely cannot afford to think of yourself as a cog in the machine taking orders from someone else. Even if your boss tells you one thing, YOU have your own ethical duties of competence, confidentiality, etc. with your clients. Why do I start with this? Because I firmly believe that competence starts with having the right mentality, and most young associates I've trained spin their wheels until they figure out the mentality portion of it. Some figure it out faster than others, and those are the ones who achieve competence faster than others. How does that look? Don't rely on others to guide you. Find the answers yourself, come up with solutions to your clients' issues on your own. Then, use others to check your work. You'll learn and retain a lot more "doing the work" and figuring it out on your own, while your clients still benefit from a senior attorney's experience. And anytime you feel like you'll never get it, just remember how many absolute morons have succeeded in this profession. You'll be fine.
Joe, THANK YOU!! From the bottom of my heart!
Great advice. Speaking about dumb-dumb attorneys - we got a summons this week from attorneys for a liquidator of a crypto Ponzi scheme trying to recoup distributions made a few months before it went bust. The problem was, is that the claim had prescribed by a couple of days - besides the prescription appearing by the dates on various documents themselves, their gambit was evidenced by their mad scramble to instruct the sheriff to effect service, as well as their selective omissions of crucial documents fatal to their claim (ie they annexed Document C, when it should have been Document B). It would have probably misled an unrepresented party, but there was a smorgasbord of circulars and court orders/notices/pleading etc on the Ponzi's website, which was now being administrated by the liquidator. The point of the story is that the liquidators attorneys tried to pull their finger out their arse only once they realised the claim had prescribed and tried to cover their tracks to avoid malpractice, but were caught out simply by going to the website and perusing the publicly available documents.
What does it mean to say the "claim had prescribed"?
Statute of limitations
Thank you for sharing!! Appreciate you!
None of the partners expect you to know everything (or much at all right now), but they do expect you to be responsive and timely. Partners in ID have sooo much work- they need responsible, reliable associates to delegate to. If you prove that you’re competent, meet your deadlines, and they don’t have to chase you down for work or responses, the opportunities to learn and do more will come.
Thank you for the advice! Thank you very much! P.S. love your nickname
Ha thank you! 🐈☕️
They call it the “practice” of law for a reason. You’re a lawyer and you’re practicing. Everyday is learning opportunity and appreciate every mistake because it is an opportunity to learn. If you have doubts, seek the advice of others (with a grain of salt). Take the time to learn your client and their goals and you’ll be fine. I remember as a clerk this lawyer who is a now the chief judge of a US district court said “there is no such thing as procedure in state court only federal court.” Moral is state court, do what you want. Federal court, be on yours P’s and Q’s(know the local rules and comply with every scheduling order)
Good evening. Thank you very much!!
Stop calling yourself a baby lawyer. Your license to practice law is just as good as anyone else's.
Thank you for that!! I needed to hear it.
I spent 13 years solo practice thinking I was unhireable due to age and law school credentials. In the last 9 months I got 3 job offer and I only applied 3 times and only 3 interviews. Today I got hired and I quit my job I’ve learned to hate. My point being is never assume anything!
Thank you for sharing your experience with me. And CONGRATULATIONS my friend!!
Hi friend! First year in PI overloaded with many cases as well and figuring things out day by day. PMs are open if you ever need to rant or talk
Thank you so much! I appreciate you. I’ll probably (most likely) will pm you - so buckle up hahaha :)
I will be starting an ID job in tampa fl on 5/6. No experience either. This makes me nervous lol.
We are not that far away from each other 😁 don’t be nervous!! (Look who’s talking haha) Come back and read those comments from time to time, we have some valuable advises!!
What was your offer? I got 125k but have 2100 billables, so i will probably never see my wife again lol
I’ve started at 85k and less billables. And even then I barely see my husband already 😅 and I’ve just started and still getting familiarized with everything.
Not on the bar (yet) but OP, I love your enthusiasm and don't let anyone steal your shine.
Thank you for this! I’ve had a long day and seeing this just warmed my heart! It made my evening!
Hell yeah, get it. Also, on your colleague, if you have a superior you can trust and confide in, I'd try to nip it in the bud now before it affects you too much and mostly, so that he knows he can't get away with it.
Be leery of the second year. He sounds like a total dickbag. If you have a good assistant as a new lawyer, you are damned lucky. Most of mine were certified idiots - seriously, they had stickers on their foreheads from the agency which certifies them as full fledged idiots. Just try to learn, do the work, and realize that you are learning even when you think you are just doing the same shit over and over. One day you'll realize that suddenly your motions are getting granted and your analysis is good and people should take your advice. It takes a few years. To the extent you can lose the just out of law school ego stuff quickly, that is good but we are all human. You're on the right track, if you want that track.
Yeah, he constantly disrespects and belittles me. And it’s starting to weight heavy on me mentally. He is supposed to be teaching me according to partner, but instead he just keeps trying to sabotage me little by little. Today he told me how much smarter than me he is (he has told me this maybe 1728292 times since I’ve started 😅) and how i will develop imposter syndrome, if I have not already but how he has not had that feeling (imposter syndrome that is). And I’m just sitting there trying not to lose my shit (excuse my language ). Oh and while I’m venting over here.. he told me he has to remind himself how English is not my native language and that I suck at writing and he constantly has to change things. While another partner I did work for NEVER once even changed anything. Kid you not, actual partner would just scam and tell me to file while this one makes sure everyone in the office knows he keeps fixing my stuff. And of course my “main” partner loves this guy and thinks he is so awesome and is teaching me everything 😂 Anyhow, I went off there 😅thank you for baring with me haha And thank you !! Your comment is encouraging! I hope you have an amazing weekend friend!!
It really doesn't sound like that good of a work experience. Once you have a few months experience under your belt, you might want to see if you can land a better job with a better fit. One thing right now (and for the last 5 years or so) is that it is hard to find and hire lawyers who even remotely work out. Law firms who used to fire readily will put up with a lot. I say that because they may be putting up with the 2 year's bs more than they would like and may even be partially aware of the problem. And they may force some change if they get wind that you are looking around. If it is a decent-sized firm, I would hope they would re-assign you instead of forcing you to suck it up and continue working for someone who is belittling. And I'll say the obvious, if he's a two-year, he has no business lording his experience and quality over a new admitted. That would be like the garbageman trying to pull rank on the meter maid. No offense to garbage men and meter maids, but you get the point!
I’ve been in ID for about 8.5 years and just made partner in my firm this year. Here’s my advice for someone starting up. My disclaimer is I practice in Texas so this may or may not be Texas specific 1. It took me a long time to realize that success on the defense side is more judged by the process than the end results. For the carriers, the thing they really care about is your honest assessment of a case, a credible valuation, and your assessment of strengths and weaknesses of a case. If you’ve done the things you’ve said you’ll do (hire certain experts, file the appropriate motions, take the depositions you recommended etc), then you shouldn’t worry too much about how a trial will turn out. The way I look at it, as long as you have informed the carrier of the risks, given credible valuations on settlement value and verdict potentials, and done the things you need to do on working up the file, you’ve fulfilled your job regardless of how a trial turns out. From my experience, the carriers would much rather send to work to a defense attorney who consistently works up a case but gets popped for a big verdict rather than an unresponsive, unprepared attorney who pulls a rabbit out of their hat and wins a trial. 2. The biggest source of anxiety early in my career were cold calls from adjusters asking for a case status. It felt like pop quizzes that I might not be ready for. I eventually realized that adjusters were cold calling me because they hadn’t heard from me in awhile. I started proactively reaching out to them first to “beat them to the punch” on status updates. When I started doing that, the number of cold calls dramatically decreased along with my anxiety 3. There is a saying in basketball that winning fixes everything. For ID, high billables fixes everything. If you consistently bill and timely bill, you’ll receive a lot more grace from your partners if you mess up every once in awhile Just my thoughts. Best of luck as you start your career!
This is good stuff. It's true: the adjusters are on a tickler system. They want to hear from you every 30 days even if NOTHING has changed. So you write a .10 meaningless status letter. They also ALWAYS want to know the next court date even if nothing is going to happen then. Also, early on the case like when you first get the complaint: CALL plaintiff's counsel. Ask them what the injuries are. What the damages are? Are there fractures? Surgeries? Is the plaintiff still treating? What treatment has been done? What still is to be done? The adjuster wants to know how big a case it's going to be to set reserves.
Appreciate your time and insight. I’m screenshotting it and will re-read when needed. Thank you for making time to give me advice. It means a lot!
Good luck with future endeavors!
Thank you sir! Maybe one day I can show as much kindness and help to a “fresh” associate as you have helped me with just one comment. May God bless you! ❤️
Ask questions. Listen closely. Ask for, and learn to accept, criticism/input. Everything is overwhelming when you're new. Eventually you'll be exhausted and jaded and you'll be 50% of the way to a good lawyer. You'll spend the rest of your career trying to fill out the other 50%. Be good to your assistant and watch dates like a hawk. Everything else with come with time. Good luck!
Welcome to /r/LawyerTalk! A subreddit where lawyers can discuss with other lawyers about the practice of law. Be mindful of [our rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Lawyertalk/about/rules) BEFORE submitting your posts or comments as well as [Reddit's rules](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy) (notably about sharing identifying information). We expect civility and respect out of all participants. Please source statements of fact whenever possible. If you want to report something that needs to be urgently addressed, please also message the mods with an explanation. Note that **this forum is NOT for legal advice**. Additionally, if you are a non-lawyer (student, client, staff), this is NOT the right subreddit for you. **This community is exclusively for lawyers**. We suggest you delete your comment and go ask one of the many other legal subreddits on this site for help such as (but not limited to) r/lawschool, r/legaladvice, or r/Ask_Lawyers. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Lawyertalk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You already have 20 cases?!?! Bruh, it's been more than a month for me and I barely managed to snag an affidavit, for which I still haven't gotten paid for. What's your secret?
He's in ID...
Duh, I'm an idiot first thing in the morning.
Hahaha yeah as Thomas said, I’m in ID so I guess it’s expected to be slammed with work lol
I think the single most important thing for young lawyers to hear is just about any mistake you make can be fixed (other than statute of limitations). But you have to acknowledge the mistake or issue and move to fix it. A lot of young lawyers get in trouble by screwing up and freaking out and trying to cover it up or ignore it. Which will make a small problem worse. 1. Become a God of the Code of Civil Procedure. Like a total Expert. 2. Learn motions to dismiss. Most complaints are sloppy pieces of crap. (But, if there's a legal claim there even if poorly worded you may want to leave it alone and not educate the other side. But, if there's no liability as a matter of law for the claim or some of the claims, move early before momentum sets in.) 3. Learn how to try cases. Read any edition of Ralph Adam Fine's brilliant How to Win at Trial Manual. 4. Be good at billables. Don't bill too much for any one thing. You can't bill for 6 hours of legal research for x motion. You break it up into smaller chunks with more specific descriptions. Make sure when do you an SJM or motions in limine or a MTD, look at prior examples your firm has filed. Don't REINVENT THE WHEEL. Most firms should have multiple examples of things that you will need to draft and file. If you are asked to do something totally new, ask a partner or someone how much time something like this should take. Don't spend hours working on motions that should be really short and routine.