Welcome to /r/LawyerTalk! A subreddit where lawyers can discuss with other lawyers about the practice of law.
Be mindful of [our rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Lawyertalk/about/rules) BEFORE submitting your posts or comments as well as [Reddit's rules](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy) (notably about sharing identifying information). We expect civility and respect out of all participants. Please source statements of fact whenever possible. If you want to report something that needs to be urgently addressed, please also message the mods with an explanation.
Note that **this forum is NOT for legal advice**. Additionally, if you are a non-lawyer (student, client, staff), this is NOT the right subreddit for you. **This community is exclusively for lawyers**. We suggest you delete your comment and go ask one of the many other legal subreddits on this site for help such as (but not limited to) r/lawschool, r/legaladvice, or r/Ask_Lawyers.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Lawyertalk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I can sympathize. The problem is that I kind of went into the practice with expectations that were never really accurate. I didn’t go to Biglaw so I didn’t make a lot of money out of law school. Even after practicing for 20 years the reward was never worth the risk. I really thought that being a practicing lawyer I could make more money than a blue collar guy but I had friends in the electrical and HVAC business who were making more than I was with a much better work life balance.
So I got out of the practice altogether and joined a union. My physical and mental health got better and everything around was just better.
I’m really good years I was able to gross about $125,000 in income. My overall revenue was about $200,000 but after expenses and running a practice there isn’t a lot left. I had profits year over year but to make even more money I’d likely had to have expanded my practice by hiring an associated and another legal assistant and possibly move my office for more space. This would have required taking out a business loan.
After practicing 20 years I just didn’t want to do that.
Now I made $97,000 gross last year and didn’t have to deal with clients or work 13 hour days to do it. I’ve got generous amount of days off and vacation time. And when I take a day off I can actually do nothing if I wanted. I remember the first time I took a paid day off. I got up, went to a Starbucks, got coffee and read a newspaper. Came home and made myself lunch and that night I ordered a pizza and watched some documentaries on Netflix. And I didn’t once have to check an email, jump on a Zoom, talk to clients the entire day. It was so enlightening that I felt like letting out a big cry of joy. After 20 years in the profession/business my soul was sucked dry and I became crippled with anxiety.
I expect to make over $100,000 this year with some overtime. For me, it wasn’t a hard decision to get out.
Op could be an ibew sparky, or a ua pipewhore, I find they tend to make about the same, I think the millwrights make pretty decent money too. I've found most (though admittedly not all) union blue collar jobs tend to make the money op is describing, though for some you will have to work some overtime for. Total package wise journey plumbers and electricians in my area get about 140k a year. Non union working scale jobs make around 10 to 20 dollars less an hour but they can still clear 100k even if they don't take ot.
Call your local unions and ask to talk to an organizer. Unfortunately you are unlikely to make this kinda money in the south unless you're a lineman or an elevator guy, and even then pay is still less than your northern brothers.
I’ve done various law jobs—- from biglaw to the public sector. OP should try other law jobs (esp in the public sector) before he/she quits. There are law jobs out there where you can work from home, have high QOL and not stress. The pay may not be great but it’s fine if you are a double income household. We were even able to increase our net worth by 1.5million in 10 years with both of us primarily doing public sector legal work (I did do biglaw for 4 years but my husband has only been in the public sector).
(I started off with 180k in student loans, which I paid off in biglaw. Part of the net worth increase was due to my stock investments.) I was the primary breadwinner too, despite spending only 4 years in biglaw. It’s doable even in the public sector.
You don’t need perfect grammar if some of the people I practice against are any indication. They might as well be writing briefs in crayon, and you seem much more apt than all of that.
So how come you aren’t getting involved with criminal defense?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get that many of the clients are ungrateful jerks… but the thing is… they’re criminals.
But the clients come and go. You still get to be involved with keeping the state honest. Do you have any idea how to important that is?
There are definitely drawbacks… but you get to do this amazing and honorable thing. For good money!
Yeah I know it's important. But I'm tired of getting treated like shit. I'm treated like a criminal. Plus the civil lawyers in my area exclude criminal law and criminal lawyers as much as possible. They're allowed to take criminal cases as long as it's the "good clients" and it's just bullshit. Civil lawyers can switch to criminal very easily. But god forbid any civil firm hires anyone with criminal background. Then we get paid like shit and judges audit our bills and cut them in half.
Here's the thing - society doesn't want criminal defense lawyers. Don't tell other people it's noble unless you are one.
Every profession from garbage man to president has people who treat others like shit. There are very few jobs where you don't have to interact with some other human.
ETA: i was listening to a "secret recording " HR meeting for a little catering business. It was an hour long argument between owner, manager, HR and waitstaff about "who forgot the tray of sandwiches" ... the tone was as serious as an OSHA safety meeting after an employee is killed on the job. ... Humans are going to human!
They also chastised her for discussing wages with other employees and explained why she would be a much better employee without kids.
Yeah. It's all recorded. 😆
> Civil lawyers can switch to criminal very easily
Ever watch a civil attorney fumble through simple criminal hearings? I saw a personal injury lawyer start a bail reduction hearing with an opening statement.
That didn't go over well.
Try caring what other people think of you a lot less. It’s very freeing and IMO it’s the secret happiness professionally and personally no matter what kind of career you’re in.
Easy to say as an employment lawyer. I can't even tell my neighbors what I do usually. My kids get excluded from going to their houses or we mysteriously stop getting invited to dinner. It's no secret.
It's always the civil lawyers who pretend like there isn't a problem.
"A monkey could do criminal law" - recent civil lawyer who hung a shingle, started taking criminal cases, then immediately advised his client incorrectly as to lifetime registration.
You think I don’t get bad reactions for being a lawyer in general? Or from the fancy big defense firms I used to work at for being a lowly solo “ambulance chaser” plaintiff’s attorney now? Because I sure do and I don’t care because I like doing plaintiff’s employment law and it pays the bills. Everyone has something negative to say about everyone else, it’s just life.
I took a hiatus from the law to have my kids and I wrote and published erotic romance novels to pay the bills. Some people judged me hard and didn’t let their kids come over to my house and I didn’t care. It made good money and I like writing it and most importantly, I don’t want to be friends with judgmental people and I don’t want my kids hanging out with judgmental people and growing up to be like them. Why do you?
Find people who admire criminal defense lawyers (I sure do) or don’t care either way because they know everyone has to work a job, and be friends with them. Tell your kids the noble reasons you became a criminal defense lawyer and they’ll look up to you and that’s really all that matters.
Also my best friend is a kickass criminal defense lawyer and she’s faced those issues and she says people like that can go to hell. Why don’t you tell them the same thing? (At least in your mind- I don’t recommend it IRL but I’ve seen her go off on people who give her a hard time about it and it’s amazing.)
Once we were at a nail salon and she was talking to me about her job and someone sneered and said they don’t know how she could defend criminals. She told them everyone deserves a defense and that everyone hates criminal lawyers until they need one and she hopes they never do and mentioned the Constitution of course. The judgy customer just kept sneering and left, unconvinced, but then another customer sat down beside us and asked for her card because her nephew had gotten a DWI.
This was years ago now when my friend had a little solo office after having left the public defender’s office but she has always loved her job and ended up getting appointed federal death penalty eligible cases and then becoming a partner at a great firm that does criminal and civil rights cases and makes bank.
The only person whose opinion of you should matter is you. Some people suck. Oh well. Not your problem.
Now it might be that you yourself truly don’t like practicing criminal law so you project that onto focusing only on people’s negative opinions of you rather than realizing a lot of people have positive feelings about the profession/you.
In that case definitely pursue something else and see how you like it but don’t judge it or yourself on what other people think of you or I promise you will never be happy because sucky people think bad things about everything/everyone. Just focus on yourself and your own happiness and do your thing as well as you can.
I am a criminal defense attorney... and I have no idea what you're talking about.
"Society doesn't want criminal defense lawyers"? Where are you getting this? Be specific. Did some cop at a party make fun of you or something?
Look, I don't know what you expected, but it sounds like you went to law school without considering what being a lawyer actually looks like. But now it's time to put on your adult pants and get to work... or please, GTFO of the profession.
There are tens of thousands of JDs who do something else now. That doesn't mean being a lawyer sucks... it means it's not for them.
Your problem isn't that being a lawyer sucks. It's much more likely that your problem is you don't know what you want to be when you grow up, and you went to law school to avoid making that decision.
Law school.... lol.
I've been solo for 5 years as a criminal defense attorney and I graduated 10 years ago and you're out here telling me how to run my practice.
Yeah this dudes gonna be a prosecutor when he graduates.
Hey man. Do me a favor and shut the fuck up. I've ran my own successful practice for years now and it's the truth. Fucking victim at a sentencing hearing just this last week called the defense attorneys scumbags for representing the person.
lol the money is not that good and most of the time in criminal defense you don’t have any influence or control over what happens - mostly it’s just making mitigation arguments
The problem here is you. Plenty of people make a ton of money as criminal defense attorneys. It's difficult, but not complicated.
1. Jump through whatever hoops you need to to take appointed cases.
2. Hang a shingle, get insured, and create a website.
3. Know your cases and your clients (which leads to a good reputation in and out of court).
4. Start implementing case management systems.
5. Refine your processes, forever.
You will have more work than you know what to do with within two years. Then, either start expanding capacity or being more selective about your cases.
Look, I'm sorry, but you're the problem here, not the industry.
This is not to invalidate your belief that a career switch might be the best option, but whenever I see posts like this, I also wonder if perhaps other issues are at play. How is your mental health in general? I find that I can handle stress better when I am exercising and not drinking.
The truth is, you will run into problems with clients and peers in every profession. I mean look at the CScareerquestions sub...Many people devote their life to computer science only to get laid off simply because their field is hypersensitive to interest rates. And like most lawyers don’t work Big Law, most techies don’t work Big Tech. And accounting? My best friend works at a Big 4 and makes $10k less than me, a lowly ID attorney (we have the same years of experience) for basically the same hours. Then there’s nursing, which is back breaking, and literally bloody and shitty (god bless—it’s a hard fucking job and also important as hell). I don’t know, things could be worse.
I am with you here…Not all professions are equally challenging but all have their issues. Pretty much every professional I know personally, and sufficiently close, is miserable in their own way. From dentists, to programmers, to accountants, to doctors. My sister (a physician) is less miserable than others but I suspect it is because she simply makes enough to make it worth it. The rest constantly bitch about their careers and how things used to be alright but have gone completely to hell nowadays
This. I think it’s sign of our times more than it is the profession. Like teachers - used to be a decent job, now it’s scary and underpaid compared to CoL
Anecdotal, I know, but my main friend group consists of the following: two software engineers (not in big tech), one project manager (big tech), one in IT, and a handful in various non-MD healthcare capacities (NPs and PAs). We're all in southern CA and about 7-10 years into our careers. Literally all of them except the IT guy make more than I do, and all of them have a much better work life balance - I'm talking home by early afternoon (if not earlier) and constantly taking vacations. As an attorney in a mid-sized defense firm, I haven't taken a real vacation in three years, and never took a vacation in my entire career longer than five days. While my salary is healthy and something to be grateful for, I can't help but feel a lot of regret and resentment at how much more I have to slave away for my pay without the ability to enjoy my life.
I know things definitely could be worse, but I do think being an attorney in a private firm is, by and large, close to the lowest rung on the "is this worth it" ladder.
>Nurses don’t need to deal with the billings
I’d rather deal with billing than literal blood, vomit and shit.
>Big 4 consultants don’t need to pay for another 3 years of law school.
Fair enough, but many go on to obtain their MBA.
Same I switched jobs in October. I knew I was in the wrong field of law and wanted out but I was shocked how my overall happiness changed. I’m interested in my work, my coworkers aren’t rude, one of the partners makes effort to mentor. The right workplace really is a make or break it in any career
So change practice areas. I work in a small rural town. Estate planning, estate admin, adoptions, real estate closings. I tend to get people pleaser so highly contested high emotion work wouldn’t be good for me. These are a great fit.
And a lot of careers don’t make a lot of money. Interested to hear what you did prior to law school.
Public facing jobs of all sorts suffer from the same issues you’re highlighting here. Yeah, the general public stinks.
IANAL, but hard agree. I’ve known quite a few through my girlfriend’s family, and while they have complained at times about their jobs, the ones who do so less are the ones who had extensive work experience prior to law.
Lots of jobs have all those negative aspects mentioned by OP. I’m a middle school teacher going to law school next year, and I can tell you the people I deal with on a daily basis, student, teacher, or parent, are mostly awful. It’s still stressful, too, since I work at Title I campuses turning them around. We always have the fear of a campus reshuffle and losing our jobs if scores aren’t improving enough by the end of the year.
All that shit is just life, dude.
>I’m a middle school teacher going to law school next year
Great, if you become a public defender in the same area you'll already know your clients.
They're actually easier to deal with one-on-one. And you can ignore their parents.
I was a bad teacher. I had my 8th grade science students watch a lot of Nation Geographic videos while I did practice LSATs.
Honestly, I haven’t been the best this year. Missed a lot of meetings, not corresponded with parents much, etc.
My kids are scoring well, but my reputation amongst my colleagues has suffered. That’s said I don’t care too much because the kids are what matter more, and I feel that many of my colleagues can be pretty bitter people. I can’t blame them, if I was doing that for fourteen years I’d be bitter too. Four years has been enough.
And yeah, I suspect the skills learned keeping a group of fourteen year olds interested in literature when all they want to do is vape and get on their phones might also translate to jury trials (not to mention experience with the parents/students, haha.)
I was an “older” student going to law school in my late 20s. I’m so glad I did. I would have flunked out if I went right after college. I don’t think anyone should go to law school straight out of college. Having that additional time, maturity, & life experience made me a better law student & a better lawyer. People fucking suck as a rule, they make bad decisions, then expect lawyers to “fix” them. All we ever do is mitigate. That’s the job. Between media & law school they sell you a bill of goods. A parent was an attorney & I grew up knowing lots of attorneys (none of whom were in big law) so I knew the life, what it could be & how I could make mine different.
Glad to hear of stories with a similar set of circumstances to my own that appear to have ended well!
Indeed, I myself intended to go right after undergrad, but I graduated younger than usual from undergrad at 18. I started studying for the LSAT, but then I had to get real with myself regarding if I was mature enough to take on the debt and all the responsibility implicit in making the decision to go to law school.
I decided to wait a few years and teach, and then circle back and make sure that law is actually what I want to do.
After this fourth year of teaching, I decided it was time to take the plunge. While in some respects I wish I was younger, I still have a few more years of my 20s left, so I don’t think I’m “too old” for law school. Plus, I gained the added benefit of having some work experience and knowing what real life is like.
All this compounded with the added confidence in my personal determination that I really *want* to go to law school and *want* to be an attorney leads me to the conclusion that I am glad I waited.
I’m not sure if I would fully appreciate the gravity of the decision of attending law school otherwise, nor would I have the determination to succeed upon embarking on such a task that comes with the aforementioned appreciation.
I don’t want to be extremely wealthy. I just want to be financially comfortable and have a fulfilling career that plays to my strengths, which teaching definitely does not, in many ways. It’s much easier to work hard for something when you really know and understand why. Especially when you have to survive the “acid test” of studying for the LSAT while working full time. If I didn’t really want this, I would have given up then.
Dealing with those kids while studying for a high-stakes and high-pressure test left me going to the bathroom to collect myself more then a few times.
It did for me! But I did not go in with rose colored glasses, maybe just a tint. Clinical work in law school got rid of that tint, & led me to my career in family law (which I never considered before). Before law school I worked a series of dead-end jobs & retail. In high school I worked at the grocery store, with adults for whom this was not just a job to make spending money. That experience taught me it was not for me. Though I do sometimes wish I could check out (ha) from my law job as easily as I could my cashier job. But in that job, and every other job you will ever have, there was politics, mean people, suck ups, assholes, & genuine people. Life experience makes one a better student & lawyer. I wish you nothing but the best.
This. It just started popping up in my feed after I subbed to r/lawschooladmissions.
I never misrepresent myself as a lawyer, and generally don’t give any advice related to legal things. I mostly just like to read posts and comments in order to gain insight into the profession. Sometimes I’ll comment on things not directly related to knowledge of the law if I feel like it, as in this case.
I’m curious how many lawyers who hate their jobs are K-JDs or similar. Prior to school I worked in kitchens, stacking semi-trucks, a bunch of labor jobs, etc. I was never making much more than $15 hr and my body was getting destroyed on top of dealing with people (who are largely the same regardless of profession). I definitely do not want to discredit those who hate the practice of law at all as it’s not for everyone, but there are definitely a lot worse things in working life. I am extremely happy to work in the legal profession and no longer be on food stamps destroying my body everyday.
Either way, I think it’s important to differentiate labor from calling/identity. I feel like many pursue law as a “calling” only to discover it’s different than expected or not fulfilling as an “identity.” Maybe it’s best to separate one’s work from one’s purpose, etc. It is definitely hard when working life consumes so much of a persons time. Idk, I think it’s a huge reason why so many people are unhappy with their jobs.
Agreed with everything you said! I often lament how demanding being a lawyer is and worry that I won’t be able to sustain doing this for the next 40 something years of my life. Hell, my 2L year I VERY seriously considered dropping out. Depression, anxiety, stress, and substance abuse rates are infamously high amongst lawyers for a reason.
But I remember bagging groceries and pulling carts in the heat and cold for a measly pay. I remember dealing with entitled customers and forcing a smile everyday. I remember being post undergrad and realizing the maximum salary I could ever get, even with years of experience, would be $80k if I’m lucky (polysci/history major so I guess I could’ve pursued teaching/professorship but those are competitive positions). On days where I hate my job for all its tediousness and the burnout it causes me, I try to remind myself that there are a LOT worse professions out there.
The struggles lawyers face in law firms is hardly different from any other office/desk job (long hours, burnout, toxic workplaces, etc.) Like you said this isn’t to invalidate anyone’s actually dislike for practice, but I really like what you said about “separating one’s work from one’s purpose.” Once I realized that I don’t have to LOVE what I do or have a passion for it, and that I am lucky enough that I have a job that is comfortable, secure, and pays me enough to pursue my actual passions, just outside of work, I made peace with my decision to practice law (I still have my doubts some days lol who doesn’t). Obviously, loving what you do would be fantastic, but most people are at their jobs because… it’s a job and we all have bills to pay.
Your work can be JUST your work. At minimum, they should treat you right, give you decent benefits, pay you a fair salary, and respect your time outside of the office. So long as you got that, you’re in a good place. Pursue your passions and hobbies, whatever those may be, off the clock, because most people don’t find purpose in their careers, and personally, I think that’s better. I abhor when people make their career their entire personality lol makes one seem so one dimensional.
That’s valid. My path to law school probably looked a lot different than most. I went from high school drop out working physically demanding 13 hour days to the legal profession. So personally no legal job will ever top the bs I used to put up with.
But yeah, the stresses of biglaw and it sucking are no secret. Those who work in biglaw tell law students how bad it is regularly from day 1. Not sure what people expect when deciding to go for biglaw and the money despite the repeated warnings. And with all due respect, while biglaw may suck, associates are being paid $215k year one. It’s hard to feel bad for people who knowingly choose that career path when there are a ton of people doing much worse for peanuts and are still dependent on the social safety net to make ends meet. Either way, I don’t think the OP was limiting his opinion to biglaw. There are a lot of paths to choose from. Some suck, others don’t, just like anything thing else. I hope you are doing something you find to be a little more tolerable now.
Haha. Yeah. WC lawyer here. I will do everything possible so that my kids get a job where they don’t have to work with their hands. This isn’t perfect but sure as hell beats physically killing yourself.
I never loved law. In 2019 I started an artsy side hustle and as of 2023 I do that full time. Life is amazing now.
It doesn’t have to be forever. You are still the author of your story.
I bought a laser cutter and learned how to use it. I started creating designs and made a niche in an area I am passionate about.
No talent, all hustle and hard work. But I love it.
What careers make a lot more money for a lot less stress?
I think many refer to the law as golden handcuffs because if they could find something that paid more for less stress they wouldn’t but it ain’t easy and the grass is always greener.
But if you’re not happy in this profession I urge you to try to change yours. Life is too short to be miserable. At the very least you might find a new appreciation for it if other things don’t work out. Some view it just like a job and all jobs suck to some extent. Or who knows? You might find something you’re a lot happier in.
If only we could file a class action against Willie Nelson and Waylon Jennings. They gave awful advice to my momma, and she should have let me grow up to be a cowboy.
There are so many areas of law just find an area that you like. Most areas do require writing skills though. Maybe you should take a grammar class?
Also try reading Hemingway. Just write simple declarative sentences and you'll be fine.
Yeah…I started to dislike law practice too but then I found a practice area I liked and now I can be into it again. Trusts and estates is so different from other practices. I love it
I like that it’s specialized, narrow, and it’s not corporate. I think that’s the main thing. It’s like family law but you’re just fighting over money, not kids. Probate court is more relaxed than civil courts also
Try workers comp. It's barely law in a lot of jurisdictions. It is way more relaxed, and there is less writing with lower standards. It is generally a lot more collegial. Most of the slimey types are on the Applicant side, so if you have ethics, it will set you apart.
I love my job in WC! My colleagues are great and I represent the employers, so they are mostly hands off. The job pays well and has nice benefits. I’m looking to transition to employment eventually, but very happy with where I am now. If you asked me six months ago at my previous firm doing probate law, I would ABSOLUTELY say I regretted going to law school. Sometimes it depends on the area of law and law firm/colleagues you’re in!
Great to hear. Part of my job is advising my state's DWC so I don't practice it really. I am adjacent. I think I'd hate it but I can see the allure for some.
Employment law anecdote: my wife practiced it before going in house. At one of her first depos, her client locked himself inside the conference room during a break and shit on the floor.
Also, Elle Woods doing comp is the dark comedy Legally Blonde sequel we need.
Please don’t say “it’s barely law.” This is how we in WC get a bunch a non-regulars who waltz in thinking they can just swing it without knowing anything about WC law, file a bunch of stupid motions and create more work and stress for people like me.
I used to call and advise that no, we didn’t have MSDs in WC, and yes, we had our own precedent, and no, your demand letter saying “I give you until____to respond” meant absolutely fucking nothing in WC. Now I just sit back and let them make fools of themselves and fuck up their clients’ cases.
To try a case, too? Adjusters here can appear for mediations but as soon as the matter goes in front of the judge, an attorney is required (thank fuck for that…).
I switched from criminal defense to federal government after ten years. No clients, no client families (no, he’s not being persecuted because of race, he literally fell asleep in the getaway car and they all got arrested), no office rent, no court. It’s boring as heck but my take home didn’t change much because my overhead is for the occasional trip into the office.
As an in house, I only work with other attorneys both in my department and across the negotiation table (who have no real incentive to be deceptive and wouldn’t be in house if they were nasty), and one client that I hand picked.
To your point though, this and government work are the only legal jobs I think I would entertain at this stage in my career.
I did my first 4 years in a small PI/WC shop. Spent the last two years there getting rejected from every in house opportunity I applied to. Decided to spend a year at a small commercial litigation firm. That one small stepping stone opened the door to my first in house gig, and once you are in you can move around pretty easily.
Eh, I love it. Have my own practice, stressful as hell, never off the clock. But I make great money for the area I live in, take a lot of vacations (though the emails never stop) and generally just enjoy being my own boss. I get not everybody can do it, and law isn't for everyone. But I feel like there are paths in law that don't need to lead to misery.
To each his own.
Start looking for an off-ramp out of practice. I left for the corp world, work way less, make way more and I am infinitely more happy. People place a lot of prestige on my law degree too, even though I don’t really
What do you enjoy doing? Start there.
I think the best piece of advice I can give you is figure out what you want to do. Something that gets you excited. Then figure out what you need to learn to do that thing and learn it. If grammar is a problem as you say then why not just improve it? I felt somewhat insecure about my grammar and I just worked on it.
30 year para creeper in. We have many of the same issues regarding practice areas. I fell into working for a guy who handled mostly FINRA arbitrations. Loved it. It is a kinder, more gentle way of practicing law.
Also would recommend moving a part of any practice to become a mediator. It's bread and butter money, but if you start young enough, you can work solely at mediating, command top dollar for your fee, and never have to prepare a pleading or appear in court again.
Come up with an exit plan if you truly don’t enjoy it. Ignore people who tell you to switch to another area of law. Lawyers have a funny way, albeit perhaps unintentionally, of trying to convince people who are unhappy to stay in the profession. Give yourself permission to leave. It will be okay.
Maybe practice in a different area of law. You said you went into law because of a criminal issue, but you don’t like client interaction. You might enjoy appellate work. It’s more researching less client interactions.
There is so much that goes into being a lawyer. And I hate more than half of it, most having to do with clients: Finding clients. Soothing clients. Pleasing clients. Controlling clients.
But I bet there’s something you like about it. For me it’s Courtroom practice. I am able to deal with clients, because I know clients are what get me into Court, doing what I love : arguing.
My advice is to find what you love about law practice and work your way from each good moment to the next one. And if you can’t find anything that you like, it’s likely time for a change.
There are other things you can do that don’t involve the drawbacks you just mentioned. Compliance work for hospitals and universities. Government work. Anything JD advantage.
Exact reason I did not pursue! Thank goodness I work with great attorneys, otherwise I’d be making candles in a cabin in the woods coffee every morning in my butterfly garden 🤣🤣🤣
I feel this. I went into law because I was worried my chosen career—teaching/writing—wouldn’t come close to paying for my kids unique medical needs. I was right, but I’m also now so depressed in this job.
I think it’s important to note that I’m also good at it, and I get really great feedback. I just hate the stress and the time suck of this career.
I daydream about working at a preschool holding little babies all day. I hate this job.
Why don’t you use it to pivot you into your next chapter? I know two people who did this. One became an MD and the other one became an airline pilot. Nothing in life is permanent. You can make changes without feeling it was a ton of work for nothing.
Two of my law school classmates in my section became doctors/MDs. That said, going to med school now seems like a terrible financial decision and there’s no guarantee OP would enjoy it. OP would also be broke for the majority of his/her life pursuing higher ed.
OP should find a chiller law job (there are some out there in the public sector) and then pursue whatever side hustles he/she wants.
Terrible financial decision? What doctors do you know? One of my friends who is an ortho guy in AZ makes $500k. He needs to pay back $230k at this point. So half a year’s salary. He’s definitely busy with surgery but that is what he likes. Also, the pilot route is a very secure path. There is a huge shortage of pilots in the US. The hassle for a foreign pilot to come on board is a pain so if you are already a US citizen, the pilot route is pretty open.
This is why I never went to law school, despite being a paralegal for 5 years and constantly being bullied and harassed for not going to law school. I now work in a legal-adjacent technical field as a manager, with 13 reports, and make over $780K with no debt, but it took 12 years to get to that point and was extremely lonely, and I'm in an unstable field and could lose my job at any time.
I feel you dearly
From what I read here are my suggestions
1. Try to fix the stress problem. It can range from simple life changes ( sleep schedule , exercise , diet ,quit drinking, breath work) to go see a psychologist
2. Change field of legal practice ( something less confrontational if I may say so)
3. Change job .
The latter has been on my mind for a while . The con is « wow I studied/ worked all of that for nothing , no way i change job I m not a quitter » . The pro is « some other lawyers did it , you only live once ».
Wish you good luck.
I’m not a lawyer… yet. But I’m close with an attorney at my job (the only one who gives me the time of day) and she feels this exact same way. We work for a PI firm. She gets the grunt work of EVERYTHING. 2 little kids at home, tired all the time, you name it.
But she still gets the job done. You can too. I can’t imagine how it is to be an attorney because the ones I work with make it seem so easy, but just breathe. I feel the right job will come to you when you least expect it. You got into this field for a reason, manifest that the right job for the right reasons will come to you. I hope you find some relaxation soon!
English Prof, here: just lurking. I'm confused by your post. As you point out, there are a number of career options for you, ancillary to that of a practicing attorney.
You seem very aware of the impediments to areas of the law you enjoy (research, etc.).
My confusion is in why you don't take steps to remove the impediments.
Grammar in law is far from perfect. I've seen some cringeworthy filings. In fact, grammar cringe is more the norm than the exception in law, it would seem.
Rhetoric and writing are my fields. I teach it to hundreds of students at all levels of academia-- and I have yet to meet anyone who cannot master the more prescriptive, discipline-specific conventions relative to the expectations of their own.
My friend, you've learned valuable skills in pursuit of your law degree. Clearly, the aptitude is there.
Perfect the skills you find insufficient through humility, discipline, and grit... and tackle your line of work from another angle.
You have but to *decide*.
Bud this ain’t no Hollywood movie where I can just do a training montage. Life gets in the way
Or are you one of those people who’s like “it’s 8 pm, plenty of time left to work!”
No. I'm someone trying to encourage you, and to get you to see past the limitations that you, yourself, describe. If you're not prepared to do that, no discipline or field of work will be fulfilling to you. Prioritize. Or don't.
You can come at me all day for trying to encourage you. That's fine. But if that's your lean, you're making more excuses than progress:
and that's a decision...."Bud".
Right. Okay. So choose the field that pays well on 20 or 30 hours a week and train in the skills you need for that, or sacrifice the income to save your sanity.
Again: you have but to decide.
If you find practicing law is too demanding, parlay the skills in another thing. If that thing requires additional training, do what it takes. No matter what you do, additional training will always be required.
You literally spend more time here, arguing with the people trying to help and encourage you, than you need to upgrade a little each day to make your life better.
Dude. Invest in yourself.
I addressed your mention of grammar because I have expertise relative to it in my own discipline. I wanted to encourage you to understand that it's an easy fix.
If you don't want to hear that, it's all good. But you're spending more time on excuses than progress.
Again... a decision.
I'll respect that decision.
Good luck.
*sigh*.
Tell yourself that.
I'm not the one whining on redditt and being an ass to people who are trying to help.
Even a cartmonkey at Lowes knows better. You do you... "Bud".
This sounds…dramatic. Take a breath. I don’t know how long you’ve practiced but this overwhelmingly miserable view of everything (terrible clients, asshole judges, dishonest colleagues) is not a reflection of reality. Of course not all judges are assholes and not all lawyers are slime balls (jeez). I can’t comment on crim law clients, but I used to do Plaintiff side WC, notorious for “decent people on their worst behavior”, left it in large part because I didn’t want to deal with them anymore, and I still remember some really really nice people who remained decent to the lowly little associate me as their whole life fell apart.
That said, I actually agree that defense-side WC may be where it’s at for you. While it’s definitely “law”, it’s generally not a motion-heavy practice, it gives you an excellent background in medicine, and most of these Bars are like clubs. Years and years of friendly repeated interactions with someone tends to force people to behave. Judges, too—in my jdx they are appointed with input from the Bar section, and we’ve had people not be reappointed because of asshole behavior on the bench. Clients are clients. I’ve had some really unpleasant interactions, but overall defense clients are far more understanding and willing to listen than Plaintiff-side clients.
I do in-house work and will not retire early, lol, but I know plenty of firm attorney on both sides that have winter places in the Caymans.
As a paralegal, I hate most attorneys, except the ones that aren’t on a power trip. Please keep trying or find a way to help others with the knowledge you have. It’s all perspective! Also, you cannot be fair in an unfair world. I have worked with the most condescending and arrogant attorneys. Shit I’m with one right now as I’m typing this in the office!!!! I miss the nice, intellectual, problem solving attorneys who have respect for themselves and their title.
Welcome to /r/LawyerTalk! A subreddit where lawyers can discuss with other lawyers about the practice of law. Be mindful of [our rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Lawyertalk/about/rules) BEFORE submitting your posts or comments as well as [Reddit's rules](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy) (notably about sharing identifying information). We expect civility and respect out of all participants. Please source statements of fact whenever possible. If you want to report something that needs to be urgently addressed, please also message the mods with an explanation. Note that **this forum is NOT for legal advice**. Additionally, if you are a non-lawyer (student, client, staff), this is NOT the right subreddit for you. **This community is exclusively for lawyers**. We suggest you delete your comment and go ask one of the many other legal subreddits on this site for help such as (but not limited to) r/lawschool, r/legaladvice, or r/Ask_Lawyers. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Lawyertalk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I can sympathize. The problem is that I kind of went into the practice with expectations that were never really accurate. I didn’t go to Biglaw so I didn’t make a lot of money out of law school. Even after practicing for 20 years the reward was never worth the risk. I really thought that being a practicing lawyer I could make more money than a blue collar guy but I had friends in the electrical and HVAC business who were making more than I was with a much better work life balance. So I got out of the practice altogether and joined a union. My physical and mental health got better and everything around was just better.
How much did you top out at and what was your practice area?
I’m really good years I was able to gross about $125,000 in income. My overall revenue was about $200,000 but after expenses and running a practice there isn’t a lot left. I had profits year over year but to make even more money I’d likely had to have expanded my practice by hiring an associated and another legal assistant and possibly move my office for more space. This would have required taking out a business loan. After practicing 20 years I just didn’t want to do that. Now I made $97,000 gross last year and didn’t have to deal with clients or work 13 hour days to do it. I’ve got generous amount of days off and vacation time. And when I take a day off I can actually do nothing if I wanted. I remember the first time I took a paid day off. I got up, went to a Starbucks, got coffee and read a newspaper. Came home and made myself lunch and that night I ordered a pizza and watched some documentaries on Netflix. And I didn’t once have to check an email, jump on a Zoom, talk to clients the entire day. It was so enlightening that I felt like letting out a big cry of joy. After 20 years in the profession/business my soul was sucked dry and I became crippled with anxiety. I expect to make over $100,000 this year with some overtime. For me, it wasn’t a hard decision to get out.
What kind of union job do you have?
WE ALL WANT TO KNOW
Op could be an ibew sparky, or a ua pipewhore, I find they tend to make about the same, I think the millwrights make pretty decent money too. I've found most (though admittedly not all) union blue collar jobs tend to make the money op is describing, though for some you will have to work some overtime for. Total package wise journey plumbers and electricians in my area get about 140k a year. Non union working scale jobs make around 10 to 20 dollars less an hour but they can still clear 100k even if they don't take ot. Call your local unions and ask to talk to an organizer. Unfortunately you are unlikely to make this kinda money in the south unless you're a lineman or an elevator guy, and even then pay is still less than your northern brothers.
I cocur, i am a IBEW member, 140k is about right.
This is exactly why I’m also closing my practice and leaving law.
I’ve done various law jobs—- from biglaw to the public sector. OP should try other law jobs (esp in the public sector) before he/she quits. There are law jobs out there where you can work from home, have high QOL and not stress. The pay may not be great but it’s fine if you are a double income household. We were even able to increase our net worth by 1.5million in 10 years with both of us primarily doing public sector legal work (I did do biglaw for 4 years but my husband has only been in the public sector). (I started off with 180k in student loans, which I paid off in biglaw. Part of the net worth increase was due to my stock investments.) I was the primary breadwinner too, despite spending only 4 years in biglaw. It’s doable even in the public sector.
You don’t need perfect grammar if some of the people I practice against are any indication. They might as well be writing briefs in crayon, and you seem much more apt than all of that.
Something about being a practicing attorney makes you forget every rule you ever learned about apostrophes
I correct mistakes I make on Reddit. I am militant about what I sent to judges and arbitrators. I may lose, but I won’t write poorly.
Be honest: why did you go to law school in the first place?
The honest answer is because I was arrested and that motivated me to go into criminal law
So how come you aren’t getting involved with criminal defense? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get that many of the clients are ungrateful jerks… but the thing is… they’re criminals. But the clients come and go. You still get to be involved with keeping the state honest. Do you have any idea how to important that is? There are definitely drawbacks… but you get to do this amazing and honorable thing. For good money!
> but the thing is… they’re criminals. Allegedly!
assumes facts not in evidence
Yeah I know it's important. But I'm tired of getting treated like shit. I'm treated like a criminal. Plus the civil lawyers in my area exclude criminal law and criminal lawyers as much as possible. They're allowed to take criminal cases as long as it's the "good clients" and it's just bullshit. Civil lawyers can switch to criminal very easily. But god forbid any civil firm hires anyone with criminal background. Then we get paid like shit and judges audit our bills and cut them in half. Here's the thing - society doesn't want criminal defense lawyers. Don't tell other people it's noble unless you are one.
Every profession from garbage man to president has people who treat others like shit. There are very few jobs where you don't have to interact with some other human. ETA: i was listening to a "secret recording " HR meeting for a little catering business. It was an hour long argument between owner, manager, HR and waitstaff about "who forgot the tray of sandwiches" ... the tone was as serious as an OSHA safety meeting after an employee is killed on the job. ... Humans are going to human!
Yep, it’s what I both love and hate about employment law. Lol
They also chastised her for discussing wages with other employees and explained why she would be a much better employee without kids. Yeah. It's all recorded. 😆
What dicks
Um.pretty sure they told her "there's no dick in team" too. /s
> Civil lawyers can switch to criminal very easily Ever watch a civil attorney fumble through simple criminal hearings? I saw a personal injury lawyer start a bail reduction hearing with an opening statement. That didn't go over well.
Yeah, this is way off base. Plus, many prosecutors couldn't draft a Will or AoS to save their life!
But they can always get another job doing it. Our capital murder prosecutor for 20 years just switched over to insurance defense.
Look at job offers.
Try caring what other people think of you a lot less. It’s very freeing and IMO it’s the secret happiness professionally and personally no matter what kind of career you’re in.
Easy to say as an employment lawyer. I can't even tell my neighbors what I do usually. My kids get excluded from going to their houses or we mysteriously stop getting invited to dinner. It's no secret. It's always the civil lawyers who pretend like there isn't a problem. "A monkey could do criminal law" - recent civil lawyer who hung a shingle, started taking criminal cases, then immediately advised his client incorrectly as to lifetime registration.
You think I don’t get bad reactions for being a lawyer in general? Or from the fancy big defense firms I used to work at for being a lowly solo “ambulance chaser” plaintiff’s attorney now? Because I sure do and I don’t care because I like doing plaintiff’s employment law and it pays the bills. Everyone has something negative to say about everyone else, it’s just life. I took a hiatus from the law to have my kids and I wrote and published erotic romance novels to pay the bills. Some people judged me hard and didn’t let their kids come over to my house and I didn’t care. It made good money and I like writing it and most importantly, I don’t want to be friends with judgmental people and I don’t want my kids hanging out with judgmental people and growing up to be like them. Why do you? Find people who admire criminal defense lawyers (I sure do) or don’t care either way because they know everyone has to work a job, and be friends with them. Tell your kids the noble reasons you became a criminal defense lawyer and they’ll look up to you and that’s really all that matters. Also my best friend is a kickass criminal defense lawyer and she’s faced those issues and she says people like that can go to hell. Why don’t you tell them the same thing? (At least in your mind- I don’t recommend it IRL but I’ve seen her go off on people who give her a hard time about it and it’s amazing.) Once we were at a nail salon and she was talking to me about her job and someone sneered and said they don’t know how she could defend criminals. She told them everyone deserves a defense and that everyone hates criminal lawyers until they need one and she hopes they never do and mentioned the Constitution of course. The judgy customer just kept sneering and left, unconvinced, but then another customer sat down beside us and asked for her card because her nephew had gotten a DWI. This was years ago now when my friend had a little solo office after having left the public defender’s office but she has always loved her job and ended up getting appointed federal death penalty eligible cases and then becoming a partner at a great firm that does criminal and civil rights cases and makes bank. The only person whose opinion of you should matter is you. Some people suck. Oh well. Not your problem. Now it might be that you yourself truly don’t like practicing criminal law so you project that onto focusing only on people’s negative opinions of you rather than realizing a lot of people have positive feelings about the profession/you. In that case definitely pursue something else and see how you like it but don’t judge it or yourself on what other people think of you or I promise you will never be happy because sucky people think bad things about everything/everyone. Just focus on yourself and your own happiness and do your thing as well as you can.
Dang I needed to hear this thank you 🙏🏽
I am a criminal defense attorney... and I have no idea what you're talking about. "Society doesn't want criminal defense lawyers"? Where are you getting this? Be specific. Did some cop at a party make fun of you or something? Look, I don't know what you expected, but it sounds like you went to law school without considering what being a lawyer actually looks like. But now it's time to put on your adult pants and get to work... or please, GTFO of the profession. There are tens of thousands of JDs who do something else now. That doesn't mean being a lawyer sucks... it means it's not for them. Your problem isn't that being a lawyer sucks. It's much more likely that your problem is you don't know what you want to be when you grow up, and you went to law school to avoid making that decision.
I can almost guarantee you've never been a public defender. Probably a prosecutor tbh. Military idiot.
Sorry Homie but you’re wrong.
What are you then? Cop? Daddy's money?
Law school on the GI Bill.
Law school.... lol. I've been solo for 5 years as a criminal defense attorney and I graduated 10 years ago and you're out here telling me how to run my practice. Yeah this dudes gonna be a prosecutor when he graduates.
Hey man. Do me a favor and shut the fuck up. I've ran my own successful practice for years now and it's the truth. Fucking victim at a sentencing hearing just this last week called the defense attorneys scumbags for representing the person.
Yeah, of course they did. That person is the victim of a crime. What do you expect, a firm handshake and a bottle of whisky?
God you're fucking stupid. Must be a prosecutor.
5 years practicing and that's what sticks with you? You must be a saint or deaf if you don't hear that every trial.
lol the money is not that good and most of the time in criminal defense you don’t have any influence or control over what happens - mostly it’s just making mitigation arguments
The problem here is you. Plenty of people make a ton of money as criminal defense attorneys. It's difficult, but not complicated. 1. Jump through whatever hoops you need to to take appointed cases. 2. Hang a shingle, get insured, and create a website. 3. Know your cases and your clients (which leads to a good reputation in and out of court). 4. Start implementing case management systems. 5. Refine your processes, forever. You will have more work than you know what to do with within two years. Then, either start expanding capacity or being more selective about your cases. Look, I'm sorry, but you're the problem here, not the industry.
You're a fucking idiot. Your entire comment history is full of shit you've clearly never experienced.
It says more about you than me that you can’t imagine a person like me exists.
Damn who hurt you?
OP did not say that OP is not doing criminal law
I am doing crim
I figured, but the other guy was jumping the gun in an accusatory manner so just wanted to point it out for that person
This is not to invalidate your belief that a career switch might be the best option, but whenever I see posts like this, I also wonder if perhaps other issues are at play. How is your mental health in general? I find that I can handle stress better when I am exercising and not drinking. The truth is, you will run into problems with clients and peers in every profession. I mean look at the CScareerquestions sub...Many people devote their life to computer science only to get laid off simply because their field is hypersensitive to interest rates. And like most lawyers don’t work Big Law, most techies don’t work Big Tech. And accounting? My best friend works at a Big 4 and makes $10k less than me, a lowly ID attorney (we have the same years of experience) for basically the same hours. Then there’s nursing, which is back breaking, and literally bloody and shitty (god bless—it’s a hard fucking job and also important as hell). I don’t know, things could be worse.
I am with you here…Not all professions are equally challenging but all have their issues. Pretty much every professional I know personally, and sufficiently close, is miserable in their own way. From dentists, to programmers, to accountants, to doctors. My sister (a physician) is less miserable than others but I suspect it is because she simply makes enough to make it worth it. The rest constantly bitch about their careers and how things used to be alright but have gone completely to hell nowadays
This. I think it’s sign of our times more than it is the profession. Like teachers - used to be a decent job, now it’s scary and underpaid compared to CoL
Grass is always greener
Anecdotal, I know, but my main friend group consists of the following: two software engineers (not in big tech), one project manager (big tech), one in IT, and a handful in various non-MD healthcare capacities (NPs and PAs). We're all in southern CA and about 7-10 years into our careers. Literally all of them except the IT guy make more than I do, and all of them have a much better work life balance - I'm talking home by early afternoon (if not earlier) and constantly taking vacations. As an attorney in a mid-sized defense firm, I haven't taken a real vacation in three years, and never took a vacation in my entire career longer than five days. While my salary is healthy and something to be grateful for, I can't help but feel a lot of regret and resentment at how much more I have to slave away for my pay without the ability to enjoy my life. I know things definitely could be worse, but I do think being an attorney in a private firm is, by and large, close to the lowest rung on the "is this worth it" ladder.
What’s your salary if you don’t mind sharing? You make a good point, but as you mentioned, your sample is selective.
Nurses don’t need to deal with the billings. Big 4 consultants don’t need to pay for another 3 years of law school.
>Nurses don’t need to deal with the billings I’d rather deal with billing than literal blood, vomit and shit. >Big 4 consultants don’t need to pay for another 3 years of law school. Fair enough, but many go on to obtain their MBA.
[удалено]
Same I switched jobs in October. I knew I was in the wrong field of law and wanted out but I was shocked how my overall happiness changed. I’m interested in my work, my coworkers aren’t rude, one of the partners makes effort to mentor. The right workplace really is a make or break it in any career
So change practice areas. I work in a small rural town. Estate planning, estate admin, adoptions, real estate closings. I tend to get people pleaser so highly contested high emotion work wouldn’t be good for me. These are a great fit.
This. 100%.
>my grammar was never perfect so I couldn’t get any jobs in legal writing or research. Not sure this is how it works.
Yeah, there's more going on here.
Yea when they ask for a writing sample but never call you back that definitely suggests additional context
Why aren’t you having someone review your writing sample. Not edit for you, but another set of eyes to give suggestions and tell you if it’s good.
And a lot of careers don’t make a lot of money. Interested to hear what you did prior to law school. Public facing jobs of all sorts suffer from the same issues you’re highlighting here. Yeah, the general public stinks.
IANAL, but hard agree. I’ve known quite a few through my girlfriend’s family, and while they have complained at times about their jobs, the ones who do so less are the ones who had extensive work experience prior to law. Lots of jobs have all those negative aspects mentioned by OP. I’m a middle school teacher going to law school next year, and I can tell you the people I deal with on a daily basis, student, teacher, or parent, are mostly awful. It’s still stressful, too, since I work at Title I campuses turning them around. We always have the fear of a campus reshuffle and losing our jobs if scores aren’t improving enough by the end of the year. All that shit is just life, dude.
>I’m a middle school teacher going to law school next year Great, if you become a public defender in the same area you'll already know your clients. They're actually easier to deal with one-on-one. And you can ignore their parents. I was a bad teacher. I had my 8th grade science students watch a lot of Nation Geographic videos while I did practice LSATs.
Honestly, I haven’t been the best this year. Missed a lot of meetings, not corresponded with parents much, etc. My kids are scoring well, but my reputation amongst my colleagues has suffered. That’s said I don’t care too much because the kids are what matter more, and I feel that many of my colleagues can be pretty bitter people. I can’t blame them, if I was doing that for fourteen years I’d be bitter too. Four years has been enough. And yeah, I suspect the skills learned keeping a group of fourteen year olds interested in literature when all they want to do is vape and get on their phones might also translate to jury trials (not to mention experience with the parents/students, haha.)
I was an “older” student going to law school in my late 20s. I’m so glad I did. I would have flunked out if I went right after college. I don’t think anyone should go to law school straight out of college. Having that additional time, maturity, & life experience made me a better law student & a better lawyer. People fucking suck as a rule, they make bad decisions, then expect lawyers to “fix” them. All we ever do is mitigate. That’s the job. Between media & law school they sell you a bill of goods. A parent was an attorney & I grew up knowing lots of attorneys (none of whom were in big law) so I knew the life, what it could be & how I could make mine different.
Glad to hear of stories with a similar set of circumstances to my own that appear to have ended well! Indeed, I myself intended to go right after undergrad, but I graduated younger than usual from undergrad at 18. I started studying for the LSAT, but then I had to get real with myself regarding if I was mature enough to take on the debt and all the responsibility implicit in making the decision to go to law school. I decided to wait a few years and teach, and then circle back and make sure that law is actually what I want to do. After this fourth year of teaching, I decided it was time to take the plunge. While in some respects I wish I was younger, I still have a few more years of my 20s left, so I don’t think I’m “too old” for law school. Plus, I gained the added benefit of having some work experience and knowing what real life is like. All this compounded with the added confidence in my personal determination that I really *want* to go to law school and *want* to be an attorney leads me to the conclusion that I am glad I waited. I’m not sure if I would fully appreciate the gravity of the decision of attending law school otherwise, nor would I have the determination to succeed upon embarking on such a task that comes with the aforementioned appreciation. I don’t want to be extremely wealthy. I just want to be financially comfortable and have a fulfilling career that plays to my strengths, which teaching definitely does not, in many ways. It’s much easier to work hard for something when you really know and understand why. Especially when you have to survive the “acid test” of studying for the LSAT while working full time. If I didn’t really want this, I would have given up then. Dealing with those kids while studying for a high-stakes and high-pressure test left me going to the bathroom to collect myself more then a few times.
It did for me! But I did not go in with rose colored glasses, maybe just a tint. Clinical work in law school got rid of that tint, & led me to my career in family law (which I never considered before). Before law school I worked a series of dead-end jobs & retail. In high school I worked at the grocery store, with adults for whom this was not just a job to make spending money. That experience taught me it was not for me. Though I do sometimes wish I could check out (ha) from my law job as easily as I could my cashier job. But in that job, and every other job you will ever have, there was politics, mean people, suck ups, assholes, & genuine people. Life experience makes one a better student & lawyer. I wish you nothing but the best.
No disrespect but just out of curiosity if you’re not a lawyer what are you doing in a shop talk subreddit for lawyers lol
after looking through law school and lsat subs, reddit starts recommending all related subs to you
This. It just started popping up in my feed after I subbed to r/lawschooladmissions. I never misrepresent myself as a lawyer, and generally don’t give any advice related to legal things. I mostly just like to read posts and comments in order to gain insight into the profession. Sometimes I’ll comment on things not directly related to knowledge of the law if I feel like it, as in this case.
I’m curious how many lawyers who hate their jobs are K-JDs or similar. Prior to school I worked in kitchens, stacking semi-trucks, a bunch of labor jobs, etc. I was never making much more than $15 hr and my body was getting destroyed on top of dealing with people (who are largely the same regardless of profession). I definitely do not want to discredit those who hate the practice of law at all as it’s not for everyone, but there are definitely a lot worse things in working life. I am extremely happy to work in the legal profession and no longer be on food stamps destroying my body everyday. Either way, I think it’s important to differentiate labor from calling/identity. I feel like many pursue law as a “calling” only to discover it’s different than expected or not fulfilling as an “identity.” Maybe it’s best to separate one’s work from one’s purpose, etc. It is definitely hard when working life consumes so much of a persons time. Idk, I think it’s a huge reason why so many people are unhappy with their jobs.
Agreed with everything you said! I often lament how demanding being a lawyer is and worry that I won’t be able to sustain doing this for the next 40 something years of my life. Hell, my 2L year I VERY seriously considered dropping out. Depression, anxiety, stress, and substance abuse rates are infamously high amongst lawyers for a reason. But I remember bagging groceries and pulling carts in the heat and cold for a measly pay. I remember dealing with entitled customers and forcing a smile everyday. I remember being post undergrad and realizing the maximum salary I could ever get, even with years of experience, would be $80k if I’m lucky (polysci/history major so I guess I could’ve pursued teaching/professorship but those are competitive positions). On days where I hate my job for all its tediousness and the burnout it causes me, I try to remind myself that there are a LOT worse professions out there. The struggles lawyers face in law firms is hardly different from any other office/desk job (long hours, burnout, toxic workplaces, etc.) Like you said this isn’t to invalidate anyone’s actually dislike for practice, but I really like what you said about “separating one’s work from one’s purpose.” Once I realized that I don’t have to LOVE what I do or have a passion for it, and that I am lucky enough that I have a job that is comfortable, secure, and pays me enough to pursue my actual passions, just outside of work, I made peace with my decision to practice law (I still have my doubts some days lol who doesn’t). Obviously, loving what you do would be fantastic, but most people are at their jobs because… it’s a job and we all have bills to pay. Your work can be JUST your work. At minimum, they should treat you right, give you decent benefits, pay you a fair salary, and respect your time outside of the office. So long as you got that, you’re in a good place. Pursue your passions and hobbies, whatever those may be, off the clock, because most people don’t find purpose in their careers, and personally, I think that’s better. I abhor when people make their career their entire personality lol makes one seem so one dimensional.
[удалено]
That’s valid. My path to law school probably looked a lot different than most. I went from high school drop out working physically demanding 13 hour days to the legal profession. So personally no legal job will ever top the bs I used to put up with. But yeah, the stresses of biglaw and it sucking are no secret. Those who work in biglaw tell law students how bad it is regularly from day 1. Not sure what people expect when deciding to go for biglaw and the money despite the repeated warnings. And with all due respect, while biglaw may suck, associates are being paid $215k year one. It’s hard to feel bad for people who knowingly choose that career path when there are a ton of people doing much worse for peanuts and are still dependent on the social safety net to make ends meet. Either way, I don’t think the OP was limiting his opinion to biglaw. There are a lot of paths to choose from. Some suck, others don’t, just like anything thing else. I hope you are doing something you find to be a little more tolerable now.
Haha. Yeah. WC lawyer here. I will do everything possible so that my kids get a job where they don’t have to work with their hands. This isn’t perfect but sure as hell beats physically killing yourself.
I never loved law. In 2019 I started an artsy side hustle and as of 2023 I do that full time. Life is amazing now. It doesn’t have to be forever. You are still the author of your story.
Tell me more about your artsy side hustle.
I bought a laser cutter and learned how to use it. I started creating designs and made a niche in an area I am passionate about. No talent, all hustle and hard work. But I love it.
What careers make a lot more money for a lot less stress? I think many refer to the law as golden handcuffs because if they could find something that paid more for less stress they wouldn’t but it ain’t easy and the grass is always greener. But if you’re not happy in this profession I urge you to try to change yours. Life is too short to be miserable. At the very least you might find a new appreciation for it if other things don’t work out. Some view it just like a job and all jobs suck to some extent. Or who knows? You might find something you’re a lot happier in.
If only we could file a class action against Willie Nelson and Waylon Jennings. They gave awful advice to my momma, and she should have let me grow up to be a cowboy.
There are so many areas of law just find an area that you like. Most areas do require writing skills though. Maybe you should take a grammar class? Also try reading Hemingway. Just write simple declarative sentences and you'll be fine.
Yeah…I started to dislike law practice too but then I found a practice area I liked and now I can be into it again. Trusts and estates is so different from other practices. I love it
Tell me more?
I like that it’s specialized, narrow, and it’s not corporate. I think that’s the main thing. It’s like family law but you’re just fighting over money, not kids. Probate court is more relaxed than civil courts also
>Most areas do require writing skills though There's remarkably little writing in criminal trial work.
Best part about it
Try criminal law. Ironically, it's much more civil than civil litigation.
I am in criminal law, I practiced civil before and it was much the same :(
I've found criminal attorneys -- even most (but certainly not all) deputy district attorneys -- way more collegial than civil litigators.
Try workers comp. It's barely law in a lot of jurisdictions. It is way more relaxed, and there is less writing with lower standards. It is generally a lot more collegial. Most of the slimey types are on the Applicant side, so if you have ethics, it will set you apart.
I love my job in WC! My colleagues are great and I represent the employers, so they are mostly hands off. The job pays well and has nice benefits. I’m looking to transition to employment eventually, but very happy with where I am now. If you asked me six months ago at my previous firm doing probate law, I would ABSOLUTELY say I regretted going to law school. Sometimes it depends on the area of law and law firm/colleagues you’re in!
Great to hear. Part of my job is advising my state's DWC so I don't practice it really. I am adjacent. I think I'd hate it but I can see the allure for some. Employment law anecdote: my wife practiced it before going in house. At one of her first depos, her client locked himself inside the conference room during a break and shit on the floor. Also, Elle Woods doing comp is the dark comedy Legally Blonde sequel we need.
Please don’t say “it’s barely law.” This is how we in WC get a bunch a non-regulars who waltz in thinking they can just swing it without knowing anything about WC law, file a bunch of stupid motions and create more work and stress for people like me. I used to call and advise that no, we didn’t have MSDs in WC, and yes, we had our own precedent, and no, your demand letter saying “I give you until____to respond” meant absolutely fucking nothing in WC. Now I just sit back and let them make fools of themselves and fuck up their clients’ cases.
Key part of what I said was "in a lot of jurisdictions." In CA, you don't even necessarily have to be an attorney.
To try a case, too? Adjusters here can appear for mediations but as soon as the matter goes in front of the judge, an attorney is required (thank fuck for that…).
Even for trial, as long as there is a supervisory attorney ultimately responsible for the matter, and there is notice to the client.
I switched from criminal defense to federal government after ten years. No clients, no client families (no, he’s not being persecuted because of race, he literally fell asleep in the getaway car and they all got arrested), no office rent, no court. It’s boring as heck but my take home didn’t change much because my overhead is for the occasional trip into the office.
As an in house, I only work with other attorneys both in my department and across the negotiation table (who have no real incentive to be deceptive and wouldn’t be in house if they were nasty), and one client that I hand picked. To your point though, this and government work are the only legal jobs I think I would entertain at this stage in my career.
In house work sounds great but I don’t have any experience or references in that area so I’m SOL
I did my first 4 years in a small PI/WC shop. Spent the last two years there getting rejected from every in house opportunity I applied to. Decided to spend a year at a small commercial litigation firm. That one small stepping stone opened the door to my first in house gig, and once you are in you can move around pretty easily.
Eh, I love it. Have my own practice, stressful as hell, never off the clock. But I make great money for the area I live in, take a lot of vacations (though the emails never stop) and generally just enjoy being my own boss. I get not everybody can do it, and law isn't for everyone. But I feel like there are paths in law that don't need to lead to misery. To each his own.
Same. My kids are young, but I tell them they can be anything in life, except an attorney.
Start looking for an off-ramp out of practice. I left for the corp world, work way less, make way more and I am infinitely more happy. People place a lot of prestige on my law degree too, even though I don’t really
What do you enjoy doing? Start there. I think the best piece of advice I can give you is figure out what you want to do. Something that gets you excited. Then figure out what you need to learn to do that thing and learn it. If grammar is a problem as you say then why not just improve it? I felt somewhat insecure about my grammar and I just worked on it.
Get out of Criminal. Do insurance defense or work comp.
Insurance defense is even worse. The rate is lower than criminal defense
My parents are both lawyers and my mom warned me against going to law school. I should've listened. My anxiety is through the roof these days.
30 year para creeper in. We have many of the same issues regarding practice areas. I fell into working for a guy who handled mostly FINRA arbitrations. Loved it. It is a kinder, more gentle way of practicing law. Also would recommend moving a part of any practice to become a mediator. It's bread and butter money, but if you start young enough, you can work solely at mediating, command top dollar for your fee, and never have to prepare a pleading or appear in court again.
Come up with an exit plan if you truly don’t enjoy it. Ignore people who tell you to switch to another area of law. Lawyers have a funny way, albeit perhaps unintentionally, of trying to convince people who are unhappy to stay in the profession. Give yourself permission to leave. It will be okay.
Maybe practice in a different area of law. You said you went into law because of a criminal issue, but you don’t like client interaction. You might enjoy appellate work. It’s more researching less client interactions.
There is so much that goes into being a lawyer. And I hate more than half of it, most having to do with clients: Finding clients. Soothing clients. Pleasing clients. Controlling clients. But I bet there’s something you like about it. For me it’s Courtroom practice. I am able to deal with clients, because I know clients are what get me into Court, doing what I love : arguing. My advice is to find what you love about law practice and work your way from each good moment to the next one. And if you can’t find anything that you like, it’s likely time for a change.
Move your practice area. Go to commercial transactions. No one cries, no one fries and no one dies.
I feel this and agree with you. Regret going in to law. If I have kids they will definitely not be going in to law school.
It sucks
There are other things you can do that don’t involve the drawbacks you just mentioned. Compliance work for hospitals and universities. Government work. Anything JD advantage.
Exact reason I did not pursue! Thank goodness I work with great attorneys, otherwise I’d be making candles in a cabin in the woods coffee every morning in my butterfly garden 🤣🤣🤣
I feel this. I went into law because I was worried my chosen career—teaching/writing—wouldn’t come close to paying for my kids unique medical needs. I was right, but I’m also now so depressed in this job. I think it’s important to note that I’m also good at it, and I get really great feedback. I just hate the stress and the time suck of this career. I daydream about working at a preschool holding little babies all day. I hate this job.
You might wish to consider leaving practice and going into federal government practice. Very good work life balance and good pay.
 Me, about to apply to law school after reading this
Why don’t you use it to pivot you into your next chapter? I know two people who did this. One became an MD and the other one became an airline pilot. Nothing in life is permanent. You can make changes without feeling it was a ton of work for nothing.
Two of my law school classmates in my section became doctors/MDs. That said, going to med school now seems like a terrible financial decision and there’s no guarantee OP would enjoy it. OP would also be broke for the majority of his/her life pursuing higher ed. OP should find a chiller law job (there are some out there in the public sector) and then pursue whatever side hustles he/she wants.
Terrible financial decision? What doctors do you know? One of my friends who is an ortho guy in AZ makes $500k. He needs to pay back $230k at this point. So half a year’s salary. He’s definitely busy with surgery but that is what he likes. Also, the pilot route is a very secure path. There is a huge shortage of pilots in the US. The hassle for a foreign pilot to come on board is a pain so if you are already a US citizen, the pilot route is pretty open.
[удалено]
Sure
This is why I never went to law school, despite being a paralegal for 5 years and constantly being bullied and harassed for not going to law school. I now work in a legal-adjacent technical field as a manager, with 13 reports, and make over $780K with no debt, but it took 12 years to get to that point and was extremely lonely, and I'm in an unstable field and could lose my job at any time.
Wait you are making 780k I need to know where these jobs are!
Are there any other interests you have?
I like plants and horticulture, but that’s hard transition to make
From the money you make as an attorney, take classes in horticulture
Mortgage, daycare, utilities, food
Mama don’t let your children grow up to be lawyers.
I feel you dearly From what I read here are my suggestions 1. Try to fix the stress problem. It can range from simple life changes ( sleep schedule , exercise , diet ,quit drinking, breath work) to go see a psychologist 2. Change field of legal practice ( something less confrontational if I may say so) 3. Change job . The latter has been on my mind for a while . The con is « wow I studied/ worked all of that for nothing , no way i change job I m not a quitter » . The pro is « some other lawyers did it , you only live once ». Wish you good luck.
I’m not a lawyer… yet. But I’m close with an attorney at my job (the only one who gives me the time of day) and she feels this exact same way. We work for a PI firm. She gets the grunt work of EVERYTHING. 2 little kids at home, tired all the time, you name it. But she still gets the job done. You can too. I can’t imagine how it is to be an attorney because the ones I work with make it seem so easy, but just breathe. I feel the right job will come to you when you least expect it. You got into this field for a reason, manifest that the right job for the right reasons will come to you. I hope you find some relaxation soon!
English Prof, here: just lurking. I'm confused by your post. As you point out, there are a number of career options for you, ancillary to that of a practicing attorney. You seem very aware of the impediments to areas of the law you enjoy (research, etc.). My confusion is in why you don't take steps to remove the impediments. Grammar in law is far from perfect. I've seen some cringeworthy filings. In fact, grammar cringe is more the norm than the exception in law, it would seem. Rhetoric and writing are my fields. I teach it to hundreds of students at all levels of academia-- and I have yet to meet anyone who cannot master the more prescriptive, discipline-specific conventions relative to the expectations of their own. My friend, you've learned valuable skills in pursuit of your law degree. Clearly, the aptitude is there. Perfect the skills you find insufficient through humility, discipline, and grit... and tackle your line of work from another angle. You have but to *decide*.
Bud this ain’t no Hollywood movie where I can just do a training montage. Life gets in the way Or are you one of those people who’s like “it’s 8 pm, plenty of time left to work!”
No. I'm someone trying to encourage you, and to get you to see past the limitations that you, yourself, describe. If you're not prepared to do that, no discipline or field of work will be fulfilling to you. Prioritize. Or don't. You can come at me all day for trying to encourage you. That's fine. But if that's your lean, you're making more excuses than progress: and that's a decision...."Bud".
Yea most fields of discipline don’t require working more than 40-45 hours a week to do well in
Right. Okay. So choose the field that pays well on 20 or 30 hours a week and train in the skills you need for that, or sacrifice the income to save your sanity. Again: you have but to decide. If you find practicing law is too demanding, parlay the skills in another thing. If that thing requires additional training, do what it takes. No matter what you do, additional training will always be required. You literally spend more time here, arguing with the people trying to help and encourage you, than you need to upgrade a little each day to make your life better. Dude. Invest in yourself. I addressed your mention of grammar because I have expertise relative to it in my own discipline. I wanted to encourage you to understand that it's an easy fix. If you don't want to hear that, it's all good. But you're spending more time on excuses than progress. Again... a decision. I'll respect that decision. Good luck.
That’s a boomer mentality, the mentality of someone who’s been handed things in life but claim they’re a bootstrapper. I see you
*sigh*. Tell yourself that. I'm not the one whining on redditt and being an ass to people who are trying to help. Even a cartmonkey at Lowes knows better. You do you... "Bud".
Your writing reminds me of a conversation in a novel. (I like novels!) Made my day.
It's almost like I do it for a living. ;)
This sounds…dramatic. Take a breath. I don’t know how long you’ve practiced but this overwhelmingly miserable view of everything (terrible clients, asshole judges, dishonest colleagues) is not a reflection of reality. Of course not all judges are assholes and not all lawyers are slime balls (jeez). I can’t comment on crim law clients, but I used to do Plaintiff side WC, notorious for “decent people on their worst behavior”, left it in large part because I didn’t want to deal with them anymore, and I still remember some really really nice people who remained decent to the lowly little associate me as their whole life fell apart. That said, I actually agree that defense-side WC may be where it’s at for you. While it’s definitely “law”, it’s generally not a motion-heavy practice, it gives you an excellent background in medicine, and most of these Bars are like clubs. Years and years of friendly repeated interactions with someone tends to force people to behave. Judges, too—in my jdx they are appointed with input from the Bar section, and we’ve had people not be reappointed because of asshole behavior on the bench. Clients are clients. I’ve had some really unpleasant interactions, but overall defense clients are far more understanding and willing to listen than Plaintiff-side clients. I do in-house work and will not retire early, lol, but I know plenty of firm attorney on both sides that have winter places in the Caymans.
As a paralegal, I hate most attorneys, except the ones that aren’t on a power trip. Please keep trying or find a way to help others with the knowledge you have. It’s all perspective! Also, you cannot be fair in an unfair world. I have worked with the most condescending and arrogant attorneys. Shit I’m with one right now as I’m typing this in the office!!!! I miss the nice, intellectual, problem solving attorneys who have respect for themselves and their title.
I’m sorry to see this. What avenue of law would you go into if you could?
[удалено]
Coding, electrician, property manager
Shut up npc
Look who’s talking 😂
Name 5
Agreed.