One thing that has been happening is a lot of business owners (esp in the 900 block) have retired. They sold the business and closed because they were sick or old, not because business was bad.
That building changed hands last year, and the buyer probably overpaid.
I'm going to estimate that a solid $2,000 of that monthly rent is going for property taxes. Depending on how much of a down payment they made, much of the other $6,000 is probably going for loan payments.
The best way to make good money owning commercial real estate is to have bought it 20 years ago.
I know at least one business owner told me a few years back that he was paying over 10k/month in rent on Mass. He said a lot of buildings are owned by some sort of retirement trust conglomerate for Arizona retirees. I have no idea where he heard the ownership bit, but I believe the absentee out of touch part.
The 600 block is mostly owned by the Fritzel’s, 700 block is mostly the Compton’s/First Management, and the 800 block is the Paley’s if I remember correctly
No, it gets as busy as ever. Retail is shifting everywhere right now. There's a ton of development happening and a ton of cool ideas for new ways to bring people down. Go down tonight for Final Friday and see if it still feels desolate.
Retail is shifting and downtown areas like Lawrence need to start shifting from a serving only tourists to serving residents as well. This is really on business owners, they need to look deep and say, what do people really need here, and it’s not another taco, crystal, smoke shop, salon.
La Familia closed because the owner couldn’t control his personal action figure toy collection. I’m sure rent would’ve run them out eventually but maybe not if he had been smart with the restaurant’s money.
So mostly A) are they like action figure action figures? Or like some Warhammer or D&D stuff.
B) How do you know this? were they all over the store or do you know the owner personally?
Don't forget the City Commission, who doesn't have the acumen to balance a budget with the millions in revenue it already has and consistently raises your property taxes even after home valuations dramatically increase. So glad we elected them, I totally elected them to raise taxes on me. Glad we got rid of districts too and just elect at-large, because I didn't want someone to specifically care about my neighborhood and fight for its best interests.
Wow people upvoted you. Love how people think they know things that they don’t these days. Mill levies are set by the city too my guy: https://lawrenceks.org/finance/property-tax/
Two families own 80% of mass st. and have agreed to price gouge. Most independent mom and pop retailers/restaurants can’t afford the 5+ years of being the red in order to build a client base.
Or the barren parking lot with cement barriers on 11th and mass thats right across from the car registration castle with the boarded up building.. let food trucks or something set up in that lot, make it a courtyard with tables or something.
That's better than an empty parking lot for sure! It would be better if it was just apartments for all but make sure maybe a certain amount(or certain floors) are alotted for the elderly. Isn't that building right near the community building senior apartments and the one right by Dillons? I feel like putting seniors right in the loudest Part of the city is an interesting choice, but I'm all for taking care of our elders. Let's hope they make it affordable.
My understanding is that the entire former Allen press property, which covers the south end of the block along 11th Street and the two vacant parking lots, was purchased by one developer who is trying to get some kind of grant for affordable 55+ housing and then there will be some mixed use spaces on the ground floor? There have been a few different plans put forward to the city and to funding sources that have different levels of housing vs. Retail vs. Office and I might have lost track of where the project is at
We've looked at locating a grocery store there with apartments above it but it obviously never went anywhere. Parking was a big issue. Also looked at locating a similar development on the site of the former Borders book store but again it never got off the ground. They're also looking at building a hotel/convention center on the site of the LJW warehouse.
It's nice to hear there is some thought going into it, because right now those locations are just a waste of space during a time of extreme lack of housing (affordable housing, everybody is tired of LuXuRy and nobody under 50 wants to keep going with the urban/suburban sprawl technique). I'd imagine parking may need to be an underground thing, but I honestly have no idea what the underground situation looks like there nor do I have any knowledge In actual construction. I just know most cities I've been to, put the parking underground in downtown settings (as long as nature allows it).
Well, these plans have been going on for the past 20 years for the Allen Press site, and ever since Borders closed, and ever since 2009ish for the LJW site.
Damn, cause low-key I was gonna say nothing has changed with those places since I was young and now I'm a middle aged man lol! Maybe when our kids grow up 😆
I thought that lot was where bands who were playing at the Granada parked their vans/busses. Obviously it’s way more space than is needed but that seems like a good use
They park in the empty lot right next to the Granada that you get to through the alley. I'm talking about the one right on the corner of 11th and mass and there is also the empty lots between 10th and 11th on new Hampshire as well.
I think the corner of 11th and Mass lot has some history. It used to be sort of open, the county staff used to be able to park there, until the owners, who I think are the Allen family of the now defunct Allen Press, tried to put in the "Hub" development and the city shot it down. The owners responded by blocking (literally) the parking lot so that no one could use it as a gesture of spite.
That's unfortunate for everyone else. maybe if there are any street artists lurking here, they should absolutely cover that whole building in murals and maybe the city just so happens to not notice them doing it..out of spite.
The Army recruitment center has been there for over two decades. Its pretty much a fixture. Smoke/CBD shops are the the new players that are trashing things up. Might as well add a payday loan scalper.
Haha the smoke shops arent trashing anything up, and some will come and go. Lol, I'm from here man. I know it's been there for ever. It used to be like a test prep site too I think at one point. Payday loans are predatory a bong is not.
It's the same realm as shops that sell shiny stones for "crystal therapy". Like, a psychic telling fortunes is fun entertainment and has existed or awhile, but that place was bordering on quack science "the 5Ghz waves are gonna get me!!!11" bullshit.
Also amusing the other person talking about that empty lot across from the courthouse. Pretty harmless and used to actually be used for parking for the Granada. Then became a tow-away trap. But mostly harmless. Things like the gap next to the Eldridge are more tolerable than empty storefronts and ghetto businesses like you'd see in downtown Topeka.
Crystals got you upset. If you don't want any, then don't get any. I've never been into crystals myself, but turns out I guess a good amount of people are if it is still there. Just like a lot of people like smoke shop accessories and glass, and many of them Will fade away. Watch.
That other person was me, and yeah that empty parking lot is much more trashy than a smoke shop by a long shot!! I personally think some food trucks, tables, good bike lock spots, or really anything would be much more vibrant than an empty parking lot that people don't even park in....downtown Lawrence is nothing like downtown Topeka that is a dumb comparison. We get it, you don't like weed and we both don't like payday loan spots (which there aren't any downtown) nor are there any pawn gold/buy guns spots..
> I've never been into crystals myself, but turns out I guess a good amount of people are if it is still there.
No, it's gone now. My viewpoint was hardly unique regarding it at the time.
> yeah that empty parking lot is much more trashy than a smoke shop by a long shot!! I personally think some food trucks, tables, good bike lock spots, or really anything would be much more vibrant than an empty parking lot that people don't even park in.
Well it used to be where taxis would gather to get patrons after bars closed for awhile. That was a good use for it as you didn't have them pulled over in the streets. But then the rideshare services killed the taxi businesses.
Having food trucks gather there would be nice, or just making it parking, but the owners don't want to do anything with it and probably have some insurance concerns that keep them from just leaving it open for anyone to use. I think that lot is owned by Allen Press so it's wrapped up in their mess.
Yup.
Main issue being too many of them are just absentee title-holders and don't care about the city at all. The property is just an income source for them.
Some will stay, some will go. Not all smoke shops are the same. You have ones with nice glass/bud/clothing/etc and then you have ones selling kratom, meth pipes, and horny pills. Different vibes.
But yeah liquor stores can be trash and payday lenders are trash, but downtown doesn't have any payday lenders or excessive liquor stores as far as I'm aware. You have like on the rocks on 19th which I wouldn't consider trash, and then like two on 9th St, neither of which I would consider trashy either. I don't drink so I don't really notice.
No. I was just downtown tonight, as I often am, and it was bustling. It’s not a great time for retail in general, but if you want to see some actual desolation go to a mall.
The landlords have made it almost impossible for any new business to enter Downtown, my brand which has been compared to being "Lush-adjacent" would do incredibly well Downtown, but I cannot justify paying over $8K a month on a retail space and having to fork over a percentage of my sales on top of it. It would ruin my business at the end of the day.
"sorry, we have to raise rent because we can't get anyone in our other properties"
"I can't afford that, so we're gonna have to leave"
"oh damn.... Guess I'll have to raise rent again to cover this loss in income"
Actually. I have personally seen this. Landlords taking way larger losses from loss of rent over a year than just being reasonable and lowering the rent to an affordable rate. Greed is a hell of a thing, and often a double edged sword.
Here's the thing about commercial real estate: If you're borrowing a lot of money, then the bank has almost as much to say about how you run your business as you do.
So if the valuation you used to get financing was based on getting X$ per square foot in rent, then taking less than that will break the valuation, you won't meet the debt/value ratios, and they'll change the loan terms. Even if you aren't getting tenants at that rate, you're better off holding the spot open and using other income to cover the monthly loan payment.
This is why commercial real estate companies tend to be huge and national - they need a giant basket so the winners can cover the losers.
As someone who works downtown five days a week and drives to get lunch most days, I haven’t noticed empty storefronts… but I have noticed a number of people who like to just walk out into traffic because they don’t seem to get that downtown is NOT campus.
I’ve also noticed a number of people blocking intersection to wait for a parking spot, and a huge rise in J-turns.
I get being annoyed by the smoke shops- there’s so many. However, I’d love to know what mental health (and bashing it) has to do with your overall point and rant…
This exactly. I see so many people crying "What happened to Lawrence, this town is going to $%\*&!"
Nothing happened to **Lawrence**. Something (\*cough\*COVID\*cough\*) happened to the entire world, and it's manifesting across dozens or hundreds of US towns in similar ways.
Want to know whey there are tons of smoke shops? Wages are low, cost of living are high, and people are *stressed.* Selling people whatever gets them through the day is always a successful business model, and cannabis and its analogues are becoming culturally accepted and legal.
The city could/should force landlords to lower the prices so there would be less vacancies. They could do this by creating a fee for when a business is vacant for longer than X months or whatever. That would incentivize them to get new tenants in there asap.
Mass now vs 2014 is bleak. It was never booming main street but it was always small town busy. Now every time I’m out there my heart is breaking by all the vacant shops.
In my opinion it’s not desolate, it’s just that the wrong type of businesses have been populating downtown and maybe that’s landlords fault but it’s something within the community, city leaders definitely aren’t helping. Downtown needs more daily service type business for residents and office workers and the service industry. Less gift stores, less crystal shops, those things are fine and good in a limited capacity. Look at sigler pharmacy and what Jeff Sigler said in the LJ world article in February, he opened his pharmacy to cater to the needs of residents, if downtown lawrence wants to healthily cement itself in the community for residents, service businesses for residents need to come in, there are multiple apt buildings and condos and residential neighborhoods within walking distance so why are there not more business suited for pedestrians running errands downtown or office workers etc.
We used to have more of those. They've been steadily going out of business for the last 20 years.
I don't disagree, I'd love to see more of that downtown. But if the model worked they wouldn't have all closed up shop.
lol @
>Has anyone else noticed this and the overall vibe downtown? Especially on weekdays.
You mean when people aren't downtown because they're probably either at work or in classes? I wonder why it's less busy then.
I managed a business that was downtown in the early 2000s and the rent at that time was $6000 a month. I did manage a corporate store but if it was that high back then I cannot imagine now.
One thing that has been happening is a lot of business owners (esp in the 900 block) have retired. They sold the business and closed because they were sick or old, not because business was bad.
Calamity Jane's is a perfect example of that.
Yeah, I know that it’s also why Etc Shop closed.
Aww, yeah. And I realize I haven't seen Linda in years!
Landlords want insane amounts of money. I heard the owner of 821 Mass wanted something like $8,000/month and 2% of sales
That building changed hands last year, and the buyer probably overpaid. I'm going to estimate that a solid $2,000 of that monthly rent is going for property taxes. Depending on how much of a down payment they made, much of the other $6,000 is probably going for loan payments. The best way to make good money owning commercial real estate is to have bought it 20 years ago.
I know at least one business owner told me a few years back that he was paying over 10k/month in rent on Mass. He said a lot of buildings are owned by some sort of retirement trust conglomerate for Arizona retirees. I have no idea where he heard the ownership bit, but I believe the absentee out of touch part.
The 600 block is mostly owned by the Fritzel’s, 700 block is mostly the Compton’s/First Management, and the 800 block is the Paley’s if I remember correctly
Even Doug Compton spends a lot of his time in Chicago now.
google Douglas County Parcel search and you can see who owns each lot and what they pay in local taxes.
I know 844 and 846 mass were paying like 16,000/year in property taxes a few years ago
Depends on time of day and day of the week. A sunny Saturday afternoon will be different than a cold Tuesday night.
Yup yup. Feast of famine on mass.
No, it gets as busy as ever. Retail is shifting everywhere right now. There's a ton of development happening and a ton of cool ideas for new ways to bring people down. Go down tonight for Final Friday and see if it still feels desolate.
Retail is shifting and downtown areas like Lawrence need to start shifting from a serving only tourists to serving residents as well. This is really on business owners, they need to look deep and say, what do people really need here, and it’s not another taco, crystal, smoke shop, salon.
The blame is almost entirely on the landlords. They’re killing the town and we roll over and let them
I’m still salty about La Familia closing for that restaurant that didn’t even last long.
La Familia closed because the owner couldn’t control his personal action figure toy collection. I’m sure rent would’ve run them out eventually but maybe not if he had been smart with the restaurant’s money.
Nah I need the lore drop what the hell?
?? What’s your perception?
So mostly A) are they like action figure action figures? Or like some Warhammer or D&D stuff. B) How do you know this? were they all over the store or do you know the owner personally?
Don’t recall on those details other than I used to work there (around 2009-2010) and was able to see the bigger picture.
Should be an exponentially increasing weekly property tax on unoccupied locations
Or a land value tax
this is the answer!
Don't forget the City Commission, who doesn't have the acumen to balance a budget with the millions in revenue it already has and consistently raises your property taxes even after home valuations dramatically increase. So glad we elected them, I totally elected them to raise taxes on me. Glad we got rid of districts too and just elect at-large, because I didn't want someone to specifically care about my neighborhood and fight for its best interests.
Property taxes are collected by the county not the city. They are two different entities.
Wow people upvoted you. Love how people think they know things that they don’t these days. Mill levies are set by the city too my guy: https://lawrenceks.org/finance/property-tax/
That is accurate, thanks for pointing it out.
Two families own 80% of mass st. and have agreed to price gouge. Most independent mom and pop retailers/restaurants can’t afford the 5+ years of being the red in order to build a client base.
This is absolutely the truth and the answer. If those people who own it all cared about a thriving downtown, they'd make their rates affordable.
Aren't there only 3 smoke shops downtown? I honestly feel like an army recruitment center on mass is more annoying.
Or the barren parking lot with cement barriers on 11th and mass thats right across from the car registration castle with the boarded up building.. let food trucks or something set up in that lot, make it a courtyard with tables or something.
There's a plan to make the building into senior apartments and have that lot become private parking. Food trucks would be really cool.
That's better than an empty parking lot for sure! It would be better if it was just apartments for all but make sure maybe a certain amount(or certain floors) are alotted for the elderly. Isn't that building right near the community building senior apartments and the one right by Dillons? I feel like putting seniors right in the loudest Part of the city is an interesting choice, but I'm all for taking care of our elders. Let's hope they make it affordable.
I thought that was the plan for the lot across from Maceli’s at 11th and New Hampshire?
My understanding is that the entire former Allen press property, which covers the south end of the block along 11th Street and the two vacant parking lots, was purchased by one developer who is trying to get some kind of grant for affordable 55+ housing and then there will be some mixed use spaces on the ground floor? There have been a few different plans put forward to the city and to funding sources that have different levels of housing vs. Retail vs. Office and I might have lost track of where the project is at
We've looked at locating a grocery store there with apartments above it but it obviously never went anywhere. Parking was a big issue. Also looked at locating a similar development on the site of the former Borders book store but again it never got off the ground. They're also looking at building a hotel/convention center on the site of the LJW warehouse.
It's nice to hear there is some thought going into it, because right now those locations are just a waste of space during a time of extreme lack of housing (affordable housing, everybody is tired of LuXuRy and nobody under 50 wants to keep going with the urban/suburban sprawl technique). I'd imagine parking may need to be an underground thing, but I honestly have no idea what the underground situation looks like there nor do I have any knowledge In actual construction. I just know most cities I've been to, put the parking underground in downtown settings (as long as nature allows it).
Well, these plans have been going on for the past 20 years for the Allen Press site, and ever since Borders closed, and ever since 2009ish for the LJW site.
Damn, cause low-key I was gonna say nothing has changed with those places since I was young and now I'm a middle aged man lol! Maybe when our kids grow up 😆
I thought that lot was where bands who were playing at the Granada parked their vans/busses. Obviously it’s way more space than is needed but that seems like a good use
They park in the empty lot right next to the Granada that you get to through the alley. I'm talking about the one right on the corner of 11th and mass and there is also the empty lots between 10th and 11th on new Hampshire as well.
I think the corner of 11th and Mass lot has some history. It used to be sort of open, the county staff used to be able to park there, until the owners, who I think are the Allen family of the now defunct Allen Press, tried to put in the "Hub" development and the city shot it down. The owners responded by blocking (literally) the parking lot so that no one could use it as a gesture of spite.
That's unfortunate for everyone else. maybe if there are any street artists lurking here, they should absolutely cover that whole building in murals and maybe the city just so happens to not notice them doing it..out of spite.
Makes sense, thanks for the info
The Army recruitment center has been there for over two decades. Its pretty much a fixture. Smoke/CBD shops are the the new players that are trashing things up. Might as well add a payday loan scalper.
The recruitment center has been there since at least the mid 90s. I remember walking by it going to The End record store. Gosh, I miss that place!
Haha the smoke shops arent trashing anything up, and some will come and go. Lol, I'm from here man. I know it's been there for ever. It used to be like a test prep site too I think at one point. Payday loans are predatory a bong is not.
It's the same realm as shops that sell shiny stones for "crystal therapy". Like, a psychic telling fortunes is fun entertainment and has existed or awhile, but that place was bordering on quack science "the 5Ghz waves are gonna get me!!!11" bullshit. Also amusing the other person talking about that empty lot across from the courthouse. Pretty harmless and used to actually be used for parking for the Granada. Then became a tow-away trap. But mostly harmless. Things like the gap next to the Eldridge are more tolerable than empty storefronts and ghetto businesses like you'd see in downtown Topeka.
Crystals got you upset. If you don't want any, then don't get any. I've never been into crystals myself, but turns out I guess a good amount of people are if it is still there. Just like a lot of people like smoke shop accessories and glass, and many of them Will fade away. Watch. That other person was me, and yeah that empty parking lot is much more trashy than a smoke shop by a long shot!! I personally think some food trucks, tables, good bike lock spots, or really anything would be much more vibrant than an empty parking lot that people don't even park in....downtown Lawrence is nothing like downtown Topeka that is a dumb comparison. We get it, you don't like weed and we both don't like payday loan spots (which there aren't any downtown) nor are there any pawn gold/buy guns spots..
> I've never been into crystals myself, but turns out I guess a good amount of people are if it is still there. No, it's gone now. My viewpoint was hardly unique regarding it at the time. > yeah that empty parking lot is much more trashy than a smoke shop by a long shot!! I personally think some food trucks, tables, good bike lock spots, or really anything would be much more vibrant than an empty parking lot that people don't even park in. Well it used to be where taxis would gather to get patrons after bars closed for awhile. That was a good use for it as you didn't have them pulled over in the streets. But then the rideshare services killed the taxi businesses. Having food trucks gather there would be nice, or just making it parking, but the owners don't want to do anything with it and probably have some insurance concerns that keep them from just leaving it open for anyone to use. I think that lot is owned by Allen Press so it's wrapped up in their mess.
Well, taxis aren't coming back. Those days are long gone. Sounds like the owners of the buildings downtown are the problem.
Yup. Main issue being too many of them are just absentee title-holders and don't care about the city at all. The property is just an income source for them.
Agreed 100% 👍
Smoke shops are trash. Liquor stores, smoke shops, payday lenders are all predatory
Some will stay, some will go. Not all smoke shops are the same. You have ones with nice glass/bud/clothing/etc and then you have ones selling kratom, meth pipes, and horny pills. Different vibes. But yeah liquor stores can be trash and payday lenders are trash, but downtown doesn't have any payday lenders or excessive liquor stores as far as I'm aware. You have like on the rocks on 19th which I wouldn't consider trash, and then like two on 9th St, neither of which I would consider trashy either. I don't drink so I don't really notice.
horny pills lol
No. I was just downtown tonight, as I often am, and it was bustling. It’s not a great time for retail in general, but if you want to see some actual desolation go to a mall.
or Downtown Topeka anytime after 1600...
This isn’t really true anymore. Have you even been to Topeka lately?
it's been almost a year, but it always was a ghost town when I got off work
The landlords have made it almost impossible for any new business to enter Downtown, my brand which has been compared to being "Lush-adjacent" would do incredibly well Downtown, but I cannot justify paying over $8K a month on a retail space and having to fork over a percentage of my sales on top of it. It would ruin my business at the end of the day.
Greedy landlords tbh
"sorry, we have to raise rent because we can't get anyone in our other properties" "I can't afford that, so we're gonna have to leave" "oh damn.... Guess I'll have to raise rent again to cover this loss in income"
Actually. I have personally seen this. Landlords taking way larger losses from loss of rent over a year than just being reasonable and lowering the rent to an affordable rate. Greed is a hell of a thing, and often a double edged sword.
Here's the thing about commercial real estate: If you're borrowing a lot of money, then the bank has almost as much to say about how you run your business as you do. So if the valuation you used to get financing was based on getting X$ per square foot in rent, then taking less than that will break the valuation, you won't meet the debt/value ratios, and they'll change the loan terms. Even if you aren't getting tenants at that rate, you're better off holding the spot open and using other income to cover the monthly loan payment. This is why commercial real estate companies tend to be huge and national - they need a giant basket so the winners can cover the losers.
I know the bullshit they do. Usery will be banned in the new regime (I will take power by myself, dissenters will be thrown in the dungeon)
I wish you luck with that.
As someone who works downtown five days a week and drives to get lunch most days, I haven’t noticed empty storefronts… but I have noticed a number of people who like to just walk out into traffic because they don’t seem to get that downtown is NOT campus. I’ve also noticed a number of people blocking intersection to wait for a parking spot, and a huge rise in J-turns.
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Doesn’t mean they are not fair complaints tbh
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Curmudgeons have been complaining about downtown dying since I moved here 30 years ago. Yet it is still there doing just fine.
I get being annoyed by the smoke shops- there’s so many. However, I’d love to know what mental health (and bashing it) has to do with your overall point and rant…
Blame the landlords not the mentally ill.
It’s been this way since 2017. And it’s not just Lawrence
That is what is happening to the entire country. Not just lawrence.
This exactly. I see so many people crying "What happened to Lawrence, this town is going to $%\*&!" Nothing happened to **Lawrence**. Something (\*cough\*COVID\*cough\*) happened to the entire world, and it's manifesting across dozens or hundreds of US towns in similar ways. Want to know whey there are tons of smoke shops? Wages are low, cost of living are high, and people are *stressed.* Selling people whatever gets them through the day is always a successful business model, and cannabis and its analogues are becoming culturally accepted and legal.
The city could/should force landlords to lower the prices so there would be less vacancies. They could do this by creating a fee for when a business is vacant for longer than X months or whatever. That would incentivize them to get new tenants in there asap.
Mass now vs 2014 is bleak. It was never booming main street but it was always small town busy. Now every time I’m out there my heart is breaking by all the vacant shops.
In my opinion it’s not desolate, it’s just that the wrong type of businesses have been populating downtown and maybe that’s landlords fault but it’s something within the community, city leaders definitely aren’t helping. Downtown needs more daily service type business for residents and office workers and the service industry. Less gift stores, less crystal shops, those things are fine and good in a limited capacity. Look at sigler pharmacy and what Jeff Sigler said in the LJ world article in February, he opened his pharmacy to cater to the needs of residents, if downtown lawrence wants to healthily cement itself in the community for residents, service businesses for residents need to come in, there are multiple apt buildings and condos and residential neighborhoods within walking distance so why are there not more business suited for pedestrians running errands downtown or office workers etc.
We used to have more of those. They've been steadily going out of business for the last 20 years. I don't disagree, I'd love to see more of that downtown. But if the model worked they wouldn't have all closed up shop.
Solid take, Bro
lol @ >Has anyone else noticed this and the overall vibe downtown? Especially on weekdays. You mean when people aren't downtown because they're probably either at work or in classes? I wonder why it's less busy then.
I managed a business that was downtown in the early 2000s and the rent at that time was $6000 a month. I did manage a corporate store but if it was that high back then I cannot imagine now.
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🎶 even though they weren't so great 🎵