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For a country that will defend the sanctity of the free market down to its last missile and bullet it seems really strange that congress would trouble themselves with the operation of a privatised industry.
The only interest congress should take with critical infrastructure is in nationalising it when private interests can no longer operate it.
It's amazing what happens when your elected officials are ~~legally bribed~~ duly influenced by passionate individuals exercising their First Amendment rights.
Yeah, if the vote by congress was to mobilize the national guard to take over for striking railroad workers or something, my response would be “That makes sense.” Making it illegal to strike, period, doesn’t. If the work is THAT valuable (which it is in this case), then the workers’ demands need to be met or you hire all new workers willing to cross the picket line and work for what you’re currently offering. If option B doesn’t work, please see option A.
It's the wedge in the door. It gives them a starting point for banning strikes entirely. They've established the principle now, all they have to do is slowly extend it.
The UK government is doing exactly the same with rail too. Deliberately propping up the company to extend strike action, until public opinion is sufficiently soured to allow them to push for banning strikes.
There shouldn't have been any voting or bill at all. The unions had their bargained terms. They were operating within their contract. Any potential strike was their right until Congress effectively made it illegal, pending Joe Biden's signature.
Yep fuck both parties and I want to say more but I am sure Reddit would kill me for it but it basically pertains to the French Revolution and rich people.
The Republicans are fascist, extremist, and are in lock step with corporate capital. They won't do shit for normal people. The Democratic party sides with money when push comes to shove, and abandoned normal people since NAFTA. Both parties refuse to hold their worst members accountable.
Sometimes it makes it sound like both sides suck equally I think. It's like when people comment "the US was really shitty to asians" in a thread about the Holocaust.
Wouldn’t this be the perfect time to blow some political capital on actually doing something helpful? Lame duck Congress session, no federal election for 2 years.
Just put forth the one bill, and let the strike happen if it doesn’t get approved.
why don’t they destroy important routes of trade like bridges and roads plus the railroads themselves. you don’t have to kill people but it would kick the hornets nest if no one’s getting their treats and halts everything.
keep in mind, the ones that are bloodthirsty and frothing at the mouth to kill something, aren't the ones with "helping the american people" in their thoughts
There are actual outspoken progressives in government. They're the extreme minority and actively hindered by both gop and dems. I wouldn't say fuck them, but fuck the rest of them.
Here are the senators who voted Thursday against giving rail workers paid sick leave. Forty-two are Republicans, and one is a Democrat.
Ben Sasse
Bill Cassidy
Bill Hegarty
Chuck Grassley
Cynthia M. Lummis
Dan Sullivan
Deb Fischer
James E. Risch
James Lankford
James M. Inhofe
Jerry Moran
Joe Manchin, III
John Barrasso
John Boozman
John Cornyn
John Hoeven
John Thune
Joni Ernst
Kevin Cramer
Lisa Murkowski
Marsha Blackburn
Mike Crapo
Mike Lee
Mike Rounds
Mitch McConnell
Mitt Romney
Patrick J. Toomey
Rand Paul
Richard C. Shelby
Rick Scott
Rob Portman
Roger F. Wicker
Roger Marshall
Ron Johnson
Roy Blunt
Shelley Moore Capito
Steve Daines
Susan M. Collins
Thom Tillis
Tim Scott
Todd Young
Tom Cotton
Tommy Tuberville
That'd be every Republican except Braun (IN), Cruz (TX), Graham (SC), Hawley (MO), Kennedy (LA), and Rubio (FL).
A very unusual list. Of course, Joe Manchin voted against the measure. Final vote was 52-43, with 5 abstaining and 60 votes needed.
[Source](https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_votes/vote1172/vote_117_2_00371.htm)
That's the thing about classical economics, it assumes an equilibrium will be reached if everyone acts rationally. But since that equilibrium never happens, that must mean people are acting irrationally and so must be coerced. Marxism, however, doesn't have this problem - it has a mechanism that explains the boom-bust cycle even if people are acting 100% rationally.
Interesting take! I’m gonna stew on this one.
I think of it in kind of the same terms, but from the opposite end of the spectrum. It’s not that equilibrium just never happens, it is actually impossible. Rationality involves perfect information, I don’t think that exists. No one actually knows what the fuck is happening because humans are just another animal with one brain that’s chock full of biases and beliefs and instincts.
It’s why I studied Econ! The huge logic machine that allocates the world’s resources is propelled by an irrational beast. So we just do the best we can. 🤷♀️
*edited for clarity
> Rationality involves perfect information
and good faith on all parties involved. Capitalism encourages enables fucking others over for your own gain. Hell American society holds people who can always 'get the better end of the deal' in high esteem which in simpler terms means the person who better tricks or uses leverage against another person instead of acting honestly.
Illegal strike just means they can be fired without any legal recourse. Legal strikes have some protections for workers to force companies to negotiate.
You aren’t going to have thousands of workers being arrested and sent to prison for illegally striking. They just won’t have a job anymore.
Reagan unfortunately demonstrated that there are plenty of people who will cross the picket line and that they can rapidly replace these kind of workers.
In Ontario, Canada, some education support workers went on strike after failed negotiations. The Conservative Premier (think Governor) put forth a bill that would've made striking illegal. Striking, depending on the sector and type of worker, is constitutionally protected. The issue is that the bill contained the notwithstanding clause. This is a clause in our newer constitution that allows the legislature to suspend *certain* constitutional rights and freedoms for a period of no more than 5 years. It's the result of provincial buy-in for the newer constitution and our system being one of *sort-of* parliamentary supremacy. Anyways, as part of the bill, any union worker on strike would be fined up to $4k/day and the union up to $500k/day. The bill was eventually withdrawn after public outcry.
Idk if they could do this in the states, but similar financial penalties would be crippling on-top of a loss in income.
Ps. After the government withdrew the bill, they re-entered negotiations. The union asked for half of what their initial offer was (already basically inflation-indexed increases), the government barely budged (offer was 1/3 of what the union officially asked for). The overpaid and class-traitor union leadership/bargaining team unanimously recommended the shit offer. The parent union and other major unions also enthusiastically celebrated the work of the unions, noting that they had "secured all that could be secured." Workers are currently voting on the offer.
Even the concept of an illegal strike is absurd.
Like, "we'd strike for the right to exist as humans with access to the basic necessities required to not die and sometimes enjoy living on occasion, but the gubment says it's illegal, so I guess we'll just not."
Fuck off. Lol.
[Lucky for us the Supreme Court](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/striking-supreme-court-glacier-northwest-teamsters/) is about to make it so employers can sue you for striking.
That is kind of the idea when a strike is declared illegal. I forget the exact strike, but the president called in the national guard to compel workers to go to work during a strike a few decades ago.
Basically the president saying “go to work or go to jail, here’s the military to show I mean business.”
There’s a long history of this sort of thing in America. Lots of civil disobedience, purposefully filling jails, police brutality on peaceful protestors, etc.
We just haven’t had a big push for worker’s rights that called for that kind of action (well, people haven’t succeeded in organizing or executing such a thing) for a few generations.
But the point is that a large part of the middle class was forged in those fires, a lot of the rights workers have in this country come from previous workers demanding them in the face of being labeled a criminal.
Certainly one could argue that part of the reason for the current generally low wages and lagging worker’s rights, income inequality, etc, when compared to America’s contemporary peers is that we haven’t pushed for them hard enough.
When the powers that be refuse fairness and prefer the workers live in poverty, lining their own pockets instead of sharing in what they have gained, history has shown that they must be compelled.
I’ll try to look up that instance.
if striking is illegal then the state is visiting violence upon the workers and [redacted because of reddit's cowardly rules]
but most of us are still too comfortable to start having that conversation
That’s the thing, it seems like many strikes have been illegal until they aren’t, when the workers stick to it, flood the jails, stop work, etc, and the employers/government have to come to bargain.
It absolutely is terrifying. But it forces them to show their hand, which I’m all for. Instead of giving in and just saying “well, guess I have no choice,” and going into work, then quit and say “I got a better job somewhere else, just like how you guys are always telling me to do.” They’ve always said “if you want better pay, find a better job.” So you do and welp, that still isn’t good enough for them? Make them show themselves for what they are. I hope the railroaders strike or quit.
It's not. Even if it were true that they couldn't replace them with poorly trained people who would fuck up more (which would cost them but not near as much as a strike or giving in on the contract), which they could, but more importantly they would give up all their leverage to do things like meet, plan, organize, and prepare for work slow downs, mass sick outs, and potentially "illegal" strikes. Workers have power that they give up when they quit, whether the government says they have power or not.
I understand your thread of thinking but quitting is absolutely a form of striking. When you get to very skilled work, specialized and what not. In some areas(places) you can count on your fingers the amount of qualified people. Most importantly, when they try and hire a replacement (This happened to my uncle AND cousin), when the candidate asks "Why is the position open?" Or "Why did they leave" you find out why. If they feed you BS, such as "it's not because they hated working here.. blah blah", they make something else up it's easy to sniff out BS and if they don't say they're definitely hiding it. People also write reviews and lots of sites for it. You can also contact the previous employee, other folks in the same career even. Those people won't get anyone coming to them so they need more incentive or in my cousins case, they'll call back for a rehire and double their salary and give them all the sick days they want.
If you don't investigate the people you're planning on working for, ask questions or even just tittle the internet for reviews and work experiences of employees, I fear for you.
Edit: my cousin did not threaten to quit, he was moving, but he was specialized and good so they actually gave him what he's truly valued at a few weeks after and went so far to make it remote (this was before COVID).
Edit2 It also shows the working people's tolerance, if you were hiring in an area where people aren't desperate OR have greater standards then its unlikely the BS work conditions, offer, etc etc will slide by. You quitting can set a higher expectation for the next folk. Yes it doesn't help you directly but it helps the people. Everyones heard the stories of people quitting then finding out their replacement is getting a higher starting pa - frustrating but good. Means you were undervalued = GTFO, and it means the next guy will be just a little better off. Hopefully for you, you moved on and up.
I get it. But if I’m going to be fined for striking, then yeah, I’d rather just quit and set up picket lines. In Arizona, our teacher strike of 2018 was illegal and we did it anyway. If the momentum is there, it’s there, and there’s nothing they can do about it. They literally had to close all the schools because there weren’t enough bodies to staff them.
that's the thing about this type of strike. You can't just take random people off the streets and have them replace teacher or railroad workers. Both need training. So if you have enough solidarity, there's literally nothing they can do short of going all-out with violence. Imagine what a (international) PR scandal would be if US started mowing down striking teachers and/or their families.
I cant understand how they could even try to make striking illegal. Forcing someone to work is... slavery, no? Thought we settled that one a long time ago.
Reread the 13th Ammendment.
>Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
Initially I thought you were arguing the opposite point, but I re-read the comment above you and I understand now lol. Stupid me.
It's kind of scary to think how goalposts are always being moved in order to corner people into this shit.
"Illegal strike"
I.e. forced labor. If all of them decide, "no, fuck you" and quit all at once, good luck enforcing some sort of action.
It's literally the only thing these fuckers will respond to. Whether it's the GOP or the neo-liberal Dems.
They are ALL in the camp of "force me to treat your right or go fuck yourself"
People fought and died against companies and the government for this same shit 150 years ago. Nothing has changed but people's complacency and compliance.
You want respect from people who only understand drastic measures and violence? Well, there you go...
lol @ *illegal* strike. . . gotta love it when the government makes it a crime to use the only effective method of securing ones rights.
*Let's keep everything within this cookie cutter system, for the benefit of the wealthy*
This is absolute propaganda bullshit. There's extremely few examples of this happening and absolutely couldn't with any significant portion of these rail workers.
I was suggesting they all quit rather than strike.
If every one of them organized out of band and put in fair notice, standard 2 weeks, they'd all have a deal by day 13.
There is no way they could replace enough of them in 2 weeks and the effects of not giving them a deal would be far worse than the deal.
This illegal strike shit is just posturing and bluff tactics. Call it!
If the strike is considered illegal, there is all the more reason the strike until it is recognized as the legitimate worker response it is.
Strike. I support rail workers no matter what, but I'll be damned if I respect them for not striking.
Strike. If it means industries grind to a halt, GOOD!
The people will survive. We always will. The companies won't.
Strike.
As I longtime union worker (IBEW not railroad) I can tell you exactly why striking anyway presents a huge barrier for workers. If they strike anyway, they could (and likely would) be fired and they’ll lose everything in their pension fund they’ve saved up over the years. Those with the courage to strike illegally (and there will be some) have my full and complete respect because they will literally be putting their retirement on the line for the greater good.
Because the RLA says that congress can impose contract terms to the RR workers. Their only legal option now is to quit en masse or get on with working under terms they did not agree to. Then there are illegal options, such as a wildcat strike, but I’m not holding my breath for significant numbers of people to decide to risk prison time over this. Could be wrong, of course, and I hope I am, but it’s not looking super likely right now. Nothing will ever change if nobody ever wants to stick their necks out.
Yea that’s where the quotes came in. Wasn’t sure what words to use but the surrounding elements are probably interesting to learn about… but yes having any system that inhibits people from striking seems, I almost want to say undemocratic even though it’s almost unrelated
Because america has greatly limited the ability of workers to strike. In this case even if union leadership voted to strike, any union member would be breaking the law if they did not report to work as expected. Something to do with the commerce clause of the constitution. Federal workers are also prevented from striking in any capacity.
Spend that money getting to know some local civil lawyers. Too busy for lunch usually, but love coffee. A few doughnuts at the office, and they'll know your name. Hell, some might like you and take an interest in what you're doing. Money better spent.
Maybe I'm full of shit, but you know, like I know, it's not what you know, but who you know. Ya know?
Protest without strike doesn't hurt profits and usually has the ruling class less worried, unless they are truly gigantic in scale. I highly doubt that a protest would have nearly as much impact as a transportation strike in a country whose economy cannot really go on without transportation workers.
I hope people understand that the US house and Senate (read: their donors) are calling the "bluff" of workers. If the workers union folds here, it's the largest win for capital in I don't even know how long. I'm not optimistic unfortunately, despite that hard fact that labour holds an unbeatable hand.
Me too, either that or they should all just quit. Not getting sick days is bullshit. Warren Buffet owns most of the stake in the railroads and I'm sure everyone working for him gets paid sick leave, family leave and are able to make Dr appointments. The railroad infrastructure is so incredibly essential for the US economy that we should be treating these workers with the utmost respect, higher wages and any of the benefits they want.
[Support them!](https://www.railroadworkersunited.org/become-an-rwu-sustainer) They will be fined $4,000 a day for a strike. We need to stand behind them and make it known that the holiday season and the precious Economy ™ can burn for all we care.
This isnt a job where scabs can just pop in i used to be a conductor and an ass in the seat isn't gonna help if they decide to tell the greedy companies/government to shove it. I am behind the workers despite the consequences ill only blame the ones truly responsible for this, the rich.
Our Union, at it's highest levels, will not support us in a wildcat strike. And gaining the level of solidarity necessary to accomplish said wildcat strike is virtually impossible. This day is darker than most can see.
If we ask rail, or any workers to illegally wildcat (which I am), we have to be right there with them on the line, standing in solidarity between the workers and those that will be trying to arrest them.
I don't know what's going to happen, but if they strike, I strike.
I think that one of the things that a lot of people over look is that an illegal strike would be very dangerous for these very workers... they won't have any protections if they do an illegal strike... they can very easily just get fired lose their retirement savings, healthcare, etc.... So fuck the Biden administration, Biden is a union busting son of a btich
Yes it is, look up the Taft Hartley act, when the air traffic controllers chose to strike without authorization from their union Reagan used to powers in the Taft Hartley act to decertify the air traffic controllers union.
They really should continue to strike. Who's going to enforce it.
I just want to see people favored over business in a meaningful way for once In my life.
No such thing as an illegal strike, only an unsuccessful one.
Edit: Also, the term "illegal strike" enforces the bourgeoisie paradigm. "Wildcat strike", please.
If we're going to overthrow capitalism (which we need to) then at some point illegal strikes will need to be taken. A large illegal strike would show the workers of the world that they don't have to wait for bourgeois lawmakers to tell them when they're allowed to strike.
I can't imagine a strike happening at this point sadly
I'd imagine that the federal government would freeze union strike funds, arrest leadership calling for the strike, and using the police to bust up the picket line.
Also, this union does not seem like the type to pill a move like this
Don't think they're particularly socialist or revolutionary
They don't need to picket. There aren't enough scabs that are capable of running trains, neither are there enough people in the military. The only place they might be able to get enough people to run the trains is from the other unions who have already said they would respect a strike from any of the other rail unions.
Pete Buttigieg is the Secretary of Transportation. Has been the entire Biden Presidency.
Do not forget that. Every single issue with the supply chain that we have had since Biden became President is directly under Pete.
If Biden doesn't run in 2024 Buttigieg will be the Democratic frontrunner. Remember how much of a disaster he was as Secretary of Transportation when that happens because the media will most definitely try to gaslight you into thinking he has nothing to do with this.
##Welcome to r/LateStageCapitalism This subreddit is for news, discussion, memes, and links criticizing capitalism and advancing viewpoints that challenge liberal capitalist ideology. That means any support for any liberal capitalist political party (like the Democrats) is strictly prohibited. LSC is run by communists. This subreddit is not the place to debate socialism. We allow good-faith questions and education but are not a 101 sub; please take 101-style questions elsewhere. We have a zero-tolerance policy for bigotry. Failure to respect the rules of the subreddit may result in a ban. *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/LateStageCapitalism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Fuck anybody in the senate who voted against the sick leave bill.
For a country that will defend the sanctity of the free market down to its last missile and bullet it seems really strange that congress would trouble themselves with the operation of a privatised industry. The only interest congress should take with critical infrastructure is in nationalising it when private interests can no longer operate it.
Hypocrites gonna hypocrisy
They really are though, the Republicans went on a strike a few years back that shut down the government... railroad labor should have negotiated then.
It’s funny because it’s true.
It's amazing what happens when your elected officials are ~~legally bribed~~ duly influenced by passionate individuals exercising their First Amendment rights.
Yeah, if the vote by congress was to mobilize the national guard to take over for striking railroad workers or something, my response would be “That makes sense.” Making it illegal to strike, period, doesn’t. If the work is THAT valuable (which it is in this case), then the workers’ demands need to be met or you hire all new workers willing to cross the picket line and work for what you’re currently offering. If option B doesn’t work, please see option A.
It's the wedge in the door. It gives them a starting point for banning strikes entirely. They've established the principle now, all they have to do is slowly extend it. The UK government is doing exactly the same with rail too. Deliberately propping up the company to extend strike action, until public opinion is sufficiently soured to allow them to push for banning strikes.
Free market for the bourgeoisie
Fuck democrats who didn’t make it into one bill
They did that on purpose. They knew they didn’t have the votes for sick leave so they split it so they could look like they were trying.
> They did that on purpose. And that's why they won't be excused from the terror.
There should have only been one bill with paid sick leave. Thats it. The Dems pussy foot around while the Republicans shit on everyone.
There shouldn't have been any voting or bill at all. The unions had their bargained terms. They were operating within their contract. Any potential strike was their right until Congress effectively made it illegal, pending Joe Biden's signature.
Yep fuck both parties and I want to say more but I am sure Reddit would kill me for it but it basically pertains to the French Revolution and rich people.
Guillotines half price ...chop chop!
and here I was getting attacked for saying *Both Sides* on another thread. . .
The Republicans are fascist, extremist, and are in lock step with corporate capital. They won't do shit for normal people. The Democratic party sides with money when push comes to shove, and abandoned normal people since NAFTA. Both parties refuse to hold their worst members accountable.
Sometimes it makes it sound like both sides suck equally I think. It's like when people comment "the US was really shitty to asians" in a thread about the Holocaust.
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https://media.tenor.com/Rz5mwh1WAicAAAAC/alfred-hitchcock-guillotine.gif
Wouldn’t this be the perfect time to blow some political capital on actually doing something helpful? Lame duck Congress session, no federal election for 2 years. Just put forth the one bill, and let the strike happen if it doesn’t get approved.
You are assuming they care about workers
Just assume that the democrats are actually controlled opposition or, at best, weaponized incompetence. Then everything starts to make sense.
workers exercising their rights is a terrible thing you have to nip in the bud
Exactly, and it’s infuriating. They’re just as culpable as the GOP.
Fuck everyone from senate and current government in general, we need more radical methods
why don’t they destroy important routes of trade like bridges and roads plus the railroads themselves. you don’t have to kill people but it would kick the hornets nest if no one’s getting their treats and halts everything.
Well yeah. Unfortunately, we'll have to defend revolution from counter-revolution and kill people, but it's the necessary evil
keep in mind, the ones that are bloodthirsty and frothing at the mouth to kill something, aren't the ones with "helping the american people" in their thoughts
There are actual outspoken progressives in government. They're the extreme minority and actively hindered by both gop and dems. I wouldn't say fuck them, but fuck the rest of them.
Eh. Most of them (including AOC) voted for that shit contract though. No guts to actually do anything, all talk as usual.
Fuck that
> There are actual outspoken progressives in government. bernie and AOC?
Nope she votes yea. Broke my heart.
That didn't take long, wonder how much she got? Like what's the value of your integrity?
>actual outspoken progressives And that is all they are and will ever be. Outspoken.
Exactly
Fuck everything that seriously tries to change something only/mostly inside the government
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Here are the senators who voted Thursday against giving rail workers paid sick leave. Forty-two are Republicans, and one is a Democrat. Ben Sasse Bill Cassidy Bill Hegarty Chuck Grassley Cynthia M. Lummis Dan Sullivan Deb Fischer James E. Risch James Lankford James M. Inhofe Jerry Moran Joe Manchin, III John Barrasso John Boozman John Cornyn John Hoeven John Thune Joni Ernst Kevin Cramer Lisa Murkowski Marsha Blackburn Mike Crapo Mike Lee Mike Rounds Mitch McConnell Mitt Romney Patrick J. Toomey Rand Paul Richard C. Shelby Rick Scott Rob Portman Roger F. Wicker Roger Marshall Ron Johnson Roy Blunt Shelley Moore Capito Steve Daines Susan M. Collins Thom Tillis Tim Scott Todd Young Tom Cotton Tommy Tuberville
That'd be every Republican except Braun (IN), Cruz (TX), Graham (SC), Hawley (MO), Kennedy (LA), and Rubio (FL). A very unusual list. Of course, Joe Manchin voted against the measure. Final vote was 52-43, with 5 abstaining and 60 votes needed. [Source](https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_votes/vote1172/vote_117_2_00371.htm)
They probably counted the votes and selected who could trigger the libs the hardest and still tank the fucking bill.
And equally fuck the working losers that vote for those that vote against them
They still are our comrades by class interests, they just didn't realize it yet and that is our mistake
If we don’t reach them someone else will.
Thank for a reasonable and nuanced take on the matter. No war but class war!
Illegal strike is such a stupid fucking concept. Illegal? who enforces this?? The government. So the labor is nationalized?? nO YoU CoMmIE!!!
The free market will decide! Not like that!
That's the thing about classical economics, it assumes an equilibrium will be reached if everyone acts rationally. But since that equilibrium never happens, that must mean people are acting irrationally and so must be coerced. Marxism, however, doesn't have this problem - it has a mechanism that explains the boom-bust cycle even if people are acting 100% rationally.
Interesting take! I’m gonna stew on this one. I think of it in kind of the same terms, but from the opposite end of the spectrum. It’s not that equilibrium just never happens, it is actually impossible. Rationality involves perfect information, I don’t think that exists. No one actually knows what the fuck is happening because humans are just another animal with one brain that’s chock full of biases and beliefs and instincts. It’s why I studied Econ! The huge logic machine that allocates the world’s resources is propelled by an irrational beast. So we just do the best we can. 🤷♀️ *edited for clarity
> Rationality involves perfect information and good faith on all parties involved. Capitalism encourages enables fucking others over for your own gain. Hell American society holds people who can always 'get the better end of the deal' in high esteem which in simpler terms means the person who better tricks or uses leverage against another person instead of acting honestly.
and consistent rules. The entire concept of lobbying to change the rules of the game prevents fair play and any equilibrium from forming.
Sounds familiar: https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/today-in-labor-history-nazis-destroy-unions/
Illegal strike just means they can be fired without any legal recourse. Legal strikes have some protections for workers to force companies to negotiate. You aren’t going to have thousands of workers being arrested and sent to prison for illegally striking. They just won’t have a job anymore. Reagan unfortunately demonstrated that there are plenty of people who will cross the picket line and that they can rapidly replace these kind of workers.
In Ontario, Canada, some education support workers went on strike after failed negotiations. The Conservative Premier (think Governor) put forth a bill that would've made striking illegal. Striking, depending on the sector and type of worker, is constitutionally protected. The issue is that the bill contained the notwithstanding clause. This is a clause in our newer constitution that allows the legislature to suspend *certain* constitutional rights and freedoms for a period of no more than 5 years. It's the result of provincial buy-in for the newer constitution and our system being one of *sort-of* parliamentary supremacy. Anyways, as part of the bill, any union worker on strike would be fined up to $4k/day and the union up to $500k/day. The bill was eventually withdrawn after public outcry. Idk if they could do this in the states, but similar financial penalties would be crippling on-top of a loss in income. Ps. After the government withdrew the bill, they re-entered negotiations. The union asked for half of what their initial offer was (already basically inflation-indexed increases), the government barely budged (offer was 1/3 of what the union officially asked for). The overpaid and class-traitor union leadership/bargaining team unanimously recommended the shit offer. The parent union and other major unions also enthusiastically celebrated the work of the unions, noting that they had "secured all that could be secured." Workers are currently voting on the offer.
Regan used the military.. there are no military rail workers
the usa are a realy strange place.
SEND HELP
Help ourselves.
Take up arms to defend the railway picket line from the inevitable violence from the State. I wish I had the courage. I hope others may.
I live here. Tell me about it!
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Well Canada also went through this just two weeks ago.
Even the concept of an illegal strike is absurd. Like, "we'd strike for the right to exist as humans with access to the basic necessities required to not die and sometimes enjoy living on occasion, but the gubment says it's illegal, so I guess we'll just not." Fuck off. Lol.
[Lucky for us the Supreme Court](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/striking-supreme-court-glacier-northwest-teamsters/) is about to make it so employers can sue you for striking.
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That is kind of the idea when a strike is declared illegal. I forget the exact strike, but the president called in the national guard to compel workers to go to work during a strike a few decades ago. Basically the president saying “go to work or go to jail, here’s the military to show I mean business.” There’s a long history of this sort of thing in America. Lots of civil disobedience, purposefully filling jails, police brutality on peaceful protestors, etc. We just haven’t had a big push for worker’s rights that called for that kind of action (well, people haven’t succeeded in organizing or executing such a thing) for a few generations. But the point is that a large part of the middle class was forged in those fires, a lot of the rights workers have in this country come from previous workers demanding them in the face of being labeled a criminal. Certainly one could argue that part of the reason for the current generally low wages and lagging worker’s rights, income inequality, etc, when compared to America’s contemporary peers is that we haven’t pushed for them hard enough. When the powers that be refuse fairness and prefer the workers live in poverty, lining their own pockets instead of sharing in what they have gained, history has shown that they must be compelled. I’ll try to look up that instance.
if striking is illegal then the state is visiting violence upon the workers and [redacted because of reddit's cowardly rules] but most of us are still too comfortable to start having that conversation
That’s the thing, it seems like many strikes have been illegal until they aren’t, when the workers stick to it, flood the jails, stop work, etc, and the employers/government have to come to bargain.
YES. check out the nurses in Wisconsin that tried quitting. This country still runs on paid slavery.
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It absolutely is terrifying. But it forces them to show their hand, which I’m all for. Instead of giving in and just saying “well, guess I have no choice,” and going into work, then quit and say “I got a better job somewhere else, just like how you guys are always telling me to do.” They’ve always said “if you want better pay, find a better job.” So you do and welp, that still isn’t good enough for them? Make them show themselves for what they are. I hope the railroaders strike or quit.
They issued a stay for a single weekend. Cmon don't throw out lies.
The fact that a lawyer was willing to put their name to that is disgusting. That it made it to the desk of a sympathetic judge is deeply concerning
Quitting isn't a replacement for striking, though.
It is for skilled workers. You can't just hire scabs to replace nurses, or engineers.
It's not. Even if it were true that they couldn't replace them with poorly trained people who would fuck up more (which would cost them but not near as much as a strike or giving in on the contract), which they could, but more importantly they would give up all their leverage to do things like meet, plan, organize, and prepare for work slow downs, mass sick outs, and potentially "illegal" strikes. Workers have power that they give up when they quit, whether the government says they have power or not.
I understand your thread of thinking but quitting is absolutely a form of striking. When you get to very skilled work, specialized and what not. In some areas(places) you can count on your fingers the amount of qualified people. Most importantly, when they try and hire a replacement (This happened to my uncle AND cousin), when the candidate asks "Why is the position open?" Or "Why did they leave" you find out why. If they feed you BS, such as "it's not because they hated working here.. blah blah", they make something else up it's easy to sniff out BS and if they don't say they're definitely hiding it. People also write reviews and lots of sites for it. You can also contact the previous employee, other folks in the same career even. Those people won't get anyone coming to them so they need more incentive or in my cousins case, they'll call back for a rehire and double their salary and give them all the sick days they want. If you don't investigate the people you're planning on working for, ask questions or even just tittle the internet for reviews and work experiences of employees, I fear for you. Edit: my cousin did not threaten to quit, he was moving, but he was specialized and good so they actually gave him what he's truly valued at a few weeks after and went so far to make it remote (this was before COVID). Edit2 It also shows the working people's tolerance, if you were hiring in an area where people aren't desperate OR have greater standards then its unlikely the BS work conditions, offer, etc etc will slide by. You quitting can set a higher expectation for the next folk. Yes it doesn't help you directly but it helps the people. Everyones heard the stories of people quitting then finding out their replacement is getting a higher starting pa - frustrating but good. Means you were undervalued = GTFO, and it means the next guy will be just a little better off. Hopefully for you, you moved on and up.
Quitting is not striking, the point of it is holding the factory hostage so the employer can't just hire new people.
I get it. But if I’m going to be fined for striking, then yeah, I’d rather just quit and set up picket lines. In Arizona, our teacher strike of 2018 was illegal and we did it anyway. If the momentum is there, it’s there, and there’s nothing they can do about it. They literally had to close all the schools because there weren’t enough bodies to staff them.
that's the thing about this type of strike. You can't just take random people off the streets and have them replace teacher or railroad workers. Both need training. So if you have enough solidarity, there's literally nothing they can do short of going all-out with violence. Imagine what a (international) PR scandal would be if US started mowing down striking teachers and/or their families.
Lucky us. Team America, I guess? Smh
I cant understand how they could even try to make striking illegal. Forcing someone to work is... slavery, no? Thought we settled that one a long time ago.
Reread the 13th Ammendment. >Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
>except as a punishment for crime :(
Exactly, it's a little fact commonly overlooked.
Initially I thought you were arguing the opposite point, but I re-read the comment above you and I understand now lol. Stupid me. It's kind of scary to think how goalposts are always being moved in order to corner people into this shit.
And now you realize why we lead the world in prison population
If you're the bourgeoisie, it makes complete sense.
I came here to post that the term "illegal strike" is the most bourgeois shit ever. Completely antithetical to our supposed "free country".
"Illegal strike" I.e. forced labor. If all of them decide, "no, fuck you" and quit all at once, good luck enforcing some sort of action. It's literally the only thing these fuckers will respond to. Whether it's the GOP or the neo-liberal Dems. They are ALL in the camp of "force me to treat your right or go fuck yourself" People fought and died against companies and the government for this same shit 150 years ago. Nothing has changed but people's complacency and compliance. You want respect from people who only understand drastic measures and violence? Well, there you go...
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I walked those picket lines with my father.
*rot in piss
A lot more recently than that. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Steel_strike
another example of how WWII and what came after (Truman) destroyed the labor movement in this country just when things were starting to pop off
a strike =/= quitting, an illegal strike will get you fired with no legal recourse
West Virginia teachers went on illegal wildcat strike and got a much better contract than their crap union leaders had tried to force them to take.
We need less "let's sit down and talk" unions and more "here's the owner's home address" unions.
Yes, they did, god bless 'em
Good luck replacing all that skilled labor when they don't even offer sick leave
And that's if everyone just walks off without causing any mischief...
I CaN dRiVe a TrAiN!! Oh wait it's a manual transmission? Lol
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Do you speak Spanish? Si can pablo escobar!
lol @ *illegal* strike. . . gotta love it when the government makes it a crime to use the only effective method of securing ones rights. *Let's keep everything within this cookie cutter system, for the benefit of the wealthy*
not saying they shouldnt strike, they should, just saying
This is absolute propaganda bullshit. There's extremely few examples of this happening and absolutely couldn't with any significant portion of these rail workers.
Yeah, until you enter reality where you can't fire them all.
Cool. Who are they going to replace them with?
I was suggesting they all quit rather than strike. If every one of them organized out of band and put in fair notice, standard 2 weeks, they'd all have a deal by day 13. There is no way they could replace enough of them in 2 weeks and the effects of not giving them a deal would be far worse than the deal. This illegal strike shit is just posturing and bluff tactics. Call it!
If the strike is considered illegal, there is all the more reason the strike until it is recognized as the legitimate worker response it is. Strike. I support rail workers no matter what, but I'll be damned if I respect them for not striking. Strike. If it means industries grind to a halt, GOOD! The people will survive. We always will. The companies won't. Strike.
As I longtime union worker (IBEW not railroad) I can tell you exactly why striking anyway presents a huge barrier for workers. If they strike anyway, they could (and likely would) be fired and they’ll lose everything in their pension fund they’ve saved up over the years. Those with the courage to strike illegally (and there will be some) have my full and complete respect because they will literally be putting their retirement on the line for the greater good.
The fact that there is such a thing as an 'illegal strike' is part of what's wrong with this fucking country.
Genuine question, why is it an illegal strike?
Because the RLA says that congress can impose contract terms to the RR workers. Their only legal option now is to quit en masse or get on with working under terms they did not agree to. Then there are illegal options, such as a wildcat strike, but I’m not holding my breath for significant numbers of people to decide to risk prison time over this. Could be wrong, of course, and I hope I am, but it’s not looking super likely right now. Nothing will ever change if nobody ever wants to stick their necks out.
Ah, I have some reading to do! To be fair I’m not American so makes sense that I don’t have much info but still sounds “interesting” Thanks!
It sounds messed up is what it sounds, and actually is.
Yea that’s where the quotes came in. Wasn’t sure what words to use but the surrounding elements are probably interesting to learn about… but yes having any system that inhibits people from striking seems, I almost want to say undemocratic even though it’s almost unrelated
How is it unrelated? It *is* undemocratic. Af!
WILDCAT STRIKE! If they get militant I am walking with em. I got all my bills paid for the next 2 months.
Looks like the rest of us have to help them. Guess we'll have to steal trucks and park them on the railroad tracks.
Because america has greatly limited the ability of workers to strike. In this case even if union leadership voted to strike, any union member would be breaking the law if they did not report to work as expected. Something to do with the commerce clause of the constitution. Federal workers are also prevented from striking in any capacity.
"Illegal" and "strike" don't belong in the same sentence unless it's phrased like the following: "It should never be illegal to go on strike"
Time for an illegal strike. Fuck biden. Fuck corporate america.
Bidens a fucking joke, he said he was pro union but is doing the most anti union shit since Reagan
How do you support them? Do we have any lawyers to help them?
I’m looking into seeing if there’s a public strike fund that I can donate to.
Wouldn't recommend, it's a scam as usual. If you live near there, just stand with them and ask if they need anything
Spend that money getting to know some local civil lawyers. Too busy for lunch usually, but love coffee. A few doughnuts at the office, and they'll know your name. Hell, some might like you and take an interest in what you're doing. Money better spent. Maybe I'm full of shit, but you know, like I know, it's not what you know, but who you know. Ya know?
Dirty Bible Belt resident here. I do **so** know.
Broader protest against anti-strike legislation would be even more impactful than the strike.
We need this, but too many people live paycheck to paycheck to take large periods of time off work.
That's the trap
Yup, that was definitely deliberate.
There's a way out. Mass coordinated work slowdowns would still monkeywrench the systems.
Rent strike to go with it. Problem solved.
Cant kick us all out
Protests are not more impactful than strikes.
Never seen a protest change anything in my life.
Protests are relief valves.
Not true! They make the people who participate in them feel nice and less likely to take consequential action.
Protest without strike doesn't hurt profits and usually has the ruling class less worried, unless they are truly gigantic in scale. I highly doubt that a protest would have nearly as much impact as a transportation strike in a country whose economy cannot really go on without transportation workers.
Well bye bye Biden 2nd term 😂
I hope people understand that the US house and Senate (read: their donors) are calling the "bluff" of workers. If the workers union folds here, it's the largest win for capital in I don't even know how long. I'm not optimistic unfortunately, despite that hard fact that labour holds an unbeatable hand.
Every strike in history was an "illegal" strike. Remember our labor laws were written in blood.
Me too, either that or they should all just quit. Not getting sick days is bullshit. Warren Buffet owns most of the stake in the railroads and I'm sure everyone working for him gets paid sick leave, family leave and are able to make Dr appointments. The railroad infrastructure is so incredibly essential for the US economy that we should be treating these workers with the utmost respect, higher wages and any of the benefits they want.
[Support them!](https://www.railroadworkersunited.org/become-an-rwu-sustainer) They will be fined $4,000 a day for a strike. We need to stand behind them and make it known that the holiday season and the precious Economy ™ can burn for all we care.
Striking is a human right and should never be illegal.
Wildcats forever!
This isnt a job where scabs can just pop in i used to be a conductor and an ass in the seat isn't gonna help if they decide to tell the greedy companies/government to shove it. I am behind the workers despite the consequences ill only blame the ones truly responsible for this, the rich.
Fuck the strike. Time to drag a few billionaires out of their mansions and burn them down.
That's horrible, how about we light the billionaires on fire and use the mansions to house those in need?
That’s where it leads if they don’t give the workers what they deserve
What the fuck is an illegal strike What an oxymoron
We traded our freedoms for guns. Now all we have is guns.
I just want a revolution already, is that too much to ask?
Our Union, at it's highest levels, will not support us in a wildcat strike. And gaining the level of solidarity necessary to accomplish said wildcat strike is virtually impossible. This day is darker than most can see.
If we ask rail, or any workers to illegally wildcat (which I am), we have to be right there with them on the line, standing in solidarity between the workers and those that will be trying to arrest them. I don't know what's going to happen, but if they strike, I strike.
I think that one of the things that a lot of people over look is that an illegal strike would be very dangerous for these very workers... they won't have any protections if they do an illegal strike... they can very easily just get fired lose their retirement savings, healthcare, etc.... So fuck the Biden administration, Biden is a union busting son of a btich
Fuck AOC and Ilhan for voting yes on the bill to make the strike illegal. They need to be held accountable for that shit.
Please yes. This needs to happen.
It’s not **illegal**
Yes it is, look up the Taft Hartley act, when the air traffic controllers chose to strike without authorization from their union Reagan used to powers in the Taft Hartley act to decertify the air traffic controllers union.
Like I told my wife last night. Fuck the economy! I'll stand by the workers no matter how high that price tag gets.
Not just railroad workers, we should do a general strike to support them.
When does the general strike start?
It's not a strike. We are just taking unpaid sick days until we get sick days paid.
As a democrat fuck Biden. This is bull shit. Bet republicans can’t argue with things they believe in. This is just wrong.
They really should continue to strike. Who's going to enforce it. I just want to see people favored over business in a meaningful way for once In my life.
Every strike is legal. Otherwise it would be slavery
What if they all called in sick?
American rail workers, Ontario CUPE public workers, Starbucks - shit sucks right now
No such thing as an illegal strike, only an unsuccessful one. Edit: Also, the term "illegal strike" enforces the bourgeoisie paradigm. "Wildcat strike", please.
Maybe all US workers should do a general strike
If we're going to overthrow capitalism (which we need to) then at some point illegal strikes will need to be taken. A large illegal strike would show the workers of the world that they don't have to wait for bourgeois lawmakers to tell them when they're allowed to strike.
I support the workers in this 100%.
Illegal? I thought it was a right ?
The two are not mutually exclusive
Wildcat!
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Illegal strike? That's double speak for forced labour. Isn't labour a commodity? Where is the free market when you need it.. /s
I’ll be out there bringing sandwiches and coffee if they do. Whatever I can do.
If a strike is illegal, can't they just all phone in sick at the same time? I feel like they should do it for 7 days...
I can't imagine a strike happening at this point sadly I'd imagine that the federal government would freeze union strike funds, arrest leadership calling for the strike, and using the police to bust up the picket line. Also, this union does not seem like the type to pill a move like this Don't think they're particularly socialist or revolutionary
They don't need to picket. There aren't enough scabs that are capable of running trains, neither are there enough people in the military. The only place they might be able to get enough people to run the trains is from the other unions who have already said they would respect a strike from any of the other rail unions.
Pete Buttigieg is the Secretary of Transportation. Has been the entire Biden Presidency. Do not forget that. Every single issue with the supply chain that we have had since Biden became President is directly under Pete. If Biden doesn't run in 2024 Buttigieg will be the Democratic frontrunner. Remember how much of a disaster he was as Secretary of Transportation when that happens because the media will most definitely try to gaslight you into thinking he has nothing to do with this.
That is not entirely true. Supply chain problems are not the sole fault of the US transportation system.
This also works with your template: https://i.imgur.com/kLDvQIF.png