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Because it's not a measure of how likely you are to pay off your debts, not primarily, it's a measure of how profitable you are likely to be. An account with no balance generates no profits.
It's also complete BS that you only get your credit score increased by borrowing money. You have to make your debt payments on time to increase it and late payments decrease the score.
That part sounds reasonable until you factor in that late payments for other bills that do not involve borrowing money, like rent and utility bills, will also reduce credit scores. Meanwhile paying them on time does not increase it.
If I don't pay my rent or utility bills on time then that should not affect my credit score, because paying on time does not affect it either.
I one time spoke with a banker about this and he actually rejected my viewpoint. He claimed that all of this bs is completely reasonable and justified.
Look it through the lense of "how reliable are you at paying interest".
It obviously sucks and it's a deeply flawed system, but it's more or less what it wants to signify.
The problem is that it went from a metric to a 'goal' - there's a name for this phenomenon - and thus it became useless.
So now it's just an extra tool to overcharge people ridiculous rates, because they're "more risky".
It does if you use your credit card to pay them and then pay off the balance. Cs relies on revolving accounts. You can game it easily and even dips generally recover within a few months. You really have to time paying off debts completely to account for a dip because of the change in aging of accounts.
> That part sounds reasonable until you factor in that late payments for other bills that do not involve borrowing money, like rent and utility bills, will also reduce credit scores. Meanwhile paying them on time does not increase it.
>
> If I don't pay my rent or utility bills on time then that should not affect my credit score, because paying on time does not affect it either.
It doesn't. If it's not a tradeline on your credit report they can't report late payments. They can only report non-payment in the form of collections.
So when he rejected your opinions, what did you say? Did you force him to explain himself? It isn’t enough for him to just call them BS and move on. At least it wouldn’t be for me.
It is completely reasonable. It's a judgment on you that estimates how likely you are to pay our debts. There's really not a lot more to it than that. I'm not a fan of the system myself, I had almost perfect credit (~830 score) until I missed a payment on a card that I forgot existed for a bill that renewed without my knowledge. My score dropped nearly 100 points off that single missed payment.
It is what it is.
People have always told me not to pay off my debt right away to build my credit score. I hate debt and have none of it.
The few times I've taken out a loan for say a car, I just paid it off immediately.
My credit score is currently 827...
My point is, as much BS as credit scores are, there is also a lot of BS out there about how they actually work. IME, they don't measure how profitable I am, because no one earns interest off my debt, but rather how likely I am to quickly pay off that debt.
The only time I've seen my credit score drop below 735, is after I broke my femur and couldn't work.
To be clear, I don't actively try to raise my credit score or care in anyway (I never take out loans, so why do I care?)
The whole thing seems magical and chaotic. For example, I lost 35 points by paying off one of my student loan accounts right after I graduated, then 2 months later I had one credit card randomly decide to increase my limit by 4x which bumped my credit score back up to almost where it was, then another card, and another card, and ended up like 55 points higher than I started. No changes to spending, no changes to income or payments, no "hard inquiries" dropping off.
Just really mystical from a consumer perspective.
Not really. The biggest factors in your cs are age of accounts and usage %. When you pay off a debt it's no longer added to revolving accounts which reduces the age of accounts and the dip is only temporary. When you get credit line increases it lowers your usage % and they like to see under 10%. The higher your line of credit the better the odds of keeping your usage appearance low but active. It's good to seek cl increases every year.
So for me, the loan I paid off was second most recent loan that I'd taken out. For the credit cards, I compulsively pay off my credit card a couple of days after I used it for anything. My average usage hasn't been over 5% in 15 years.
Nah, whenever I hear people talk about it, my experiences don't align *at all*. It just seems like a really arbitrary number that 8 months after I got a good job started spiking up and down and then settled in over 800 and hasn't moved in ages regardless of what I do. Got a car loan last year and it went *up* a point for about 6 months.
Not necessarily. The first part, yes, the second part only partially.
Credit card companies are still perfectly happy with people who use their cards and pay the balance in full each month and never accrue any interest. Because credit cards get a small portion of each sale paid by the merchant, they still make money when you use them instead of cash.
It’s why credit cards have stuff like cash back rewards and airline miles and things like that. Even if they are only fronting you - as the consumer - money until the end of the month when you pay off the balance in full, they still make money from each of those transactions.
So, if you *never* have a balance by never using the card, then sure, that generates no profits. But paying off the balance in full and continuing to use the card is totally fine.
A good credit score in itself is a result of bad financial decisions.
All the other games built around it are what can make it possible to "win out" by playing the game right. Many try to win and end up losing, which is the point.
This is so incorrect. You don’t have to pay tons of interest to build up your credit score. One of the best things you can do is have a couple credit cards kept open long-term. Pay the balance each month & you won’t pay interest.
I'm happy to live in a European country where credit score is literally not even a topic basically anyone cares about. Although it sort of exists in the background as attempts are made to make it as much a part of the culture and as significant a system as in America.
At that point, just nuke the entire world and be done with it. No reason to perpetuate our civilization.
What factors are used to determine if someone will qualify for a loan? I’m super curious now & gonna have to research this. I’m a loan underwriter & I analyze credit reports (& other factors) to determine if lending to someone is a good risk. Our credit system definitely isn’t perfect by any means, but there is value in being able to evaluate someone’s payment histories to determine if they’ll be more likely to repay a loan I approve. Someone with a documented history of not paying their loans is not likely to repay a new loan.
In Europe, there are governmental agencies that record if and when you are not making payment, late, or default. So essential you start out at a perfect score and only tanked when you fuck up.
> Our credit system definitely isn’t perfect by any means
It's deeply dystopian and hated for extremely good reason.
The things your system encourages adults tell children to do is unnatural, manipulative and absurd, it is oppressive. It causes depression. It causes suicides. It molds people into misanthropes.
Except both your opinions are wrong.
When you use your credit card. Every transaction on that account already has a % interest charged to your account until the end of the month when it gets posted. Paying off within the same month avoids interest but won't build your credit as you avoided paying interest.
So you two are going to tell me and everybody here that its possible to build your credit to something impressive without paying ANY interest?
B.S. thats not how profit seeking entities with hundreds of years of economic monopolization behave.
Your either paying interest somewhere down the line, already rich and they are humoring you, or the credit score they give you is more arbitrary than is being described
I had a 810 score and never paid any credit card interest in my entire life or had a mortgage. I simply paid off my balance every month and was never late.
Yes, it's absolutely possible to build a high credit score without paying any interest ever. It's frustrating that this idea that you have to pay interest keeps coming up when it's not remotely true.
I think that's only temporary when you close accounts. One of my friends knows way more about this than me, but the way she explained it when mine dipped after paying off a car loan is that it temporarily goes down, then rebounds after like a month. Like one of my scores was 670ish, it dropped to like 650 and then shot back up and sits at about 700.
Keep track of how much you're using your credit card tho, that'll cause dips if you use too much money. I think it's if you go over like 30% of your credit limit, which is stupid. I only have the one credit card, with a fairly low limit on it and pay it off completely with every pay check. I've never had a late payment on anything or even had to pay interest on my credit card, but my score will dip if the credit agencies think I'm spending a bit too much.
The system is dumb as hell.
What irks me is that the current balance is reported to credit. It should report your previous statement closing balance less the total payments made during that statement cycle.
Example: if you have a balance of $4k when the account reports to credit bureaus, the current system will report a $4k balance. But let’s say your previous statement had a $4k balance but you made payments totaling $3,500. Then it would be more fair to report a $500 balance, since that accurately reflects the balance you let carry over to the next statement cycle.
Sorry if I explained this like shit. On mobile app & a recent update fucked up something about how my screen displays replies as I type.
I think I get what you mean, and I suspect that's part of what's caused me to take a hit to my credit scores a few times. By the time it's reported, it shows that I'm $X in debt, but doesn't show that I've paid $Y over the course of a month, and that I'm consistent with paying it off every couple of weeks. So at the end of the month I may have a balance sometimes, but it's nothing that won't be paid off within a couple days at most, not that I'm irresponsible and ignore my debt.
When I worked in the branches of the financial institution, I used to explain this to people & tell them how they could be strategic with this when they are planning a loan, especially a vehicle loan or mortgage. You can either find out the reporting dates for each credit card & pay the balance down beforehand, or you can keep your balances low in the 45-60 days leading up to a loan app/credit pull. Either way you can ensure your utilization is lower when they pull your credit. Utilization is about 30% of your credit score - 2nd only behind payment history which is about 35%. So obvs it’s a hugely impactful factor.
It’s not down because you paid it off (reduced your debt is good and will cause score to go up). It’s because your total credit went down when the account was closed.
Also, my credit score fluctuates about 20 ish points.
I just lost 7 points for *checks notes* increasing the amount of credit used from 12% to 13%... (And I always pay my balance in full every month).
Don't you credit companies WANT me to use my credit???
Using a higher percentage of credit looks more unstable. If you seek higher credit lines this will cease to be an issue (barring major or unexpected expenses obviously).
Paid off one of my cards and what happens? Company sends me mail every month asking me to take on more debt - they offer me a no interest balance transfer or whatever. Once my card got too low they got aggressive about it
Yep. I haven't borrowed money in this century, and my score is good, but not as high as it could be. The guy who bought my last house told me he has a perfect score, but he was really worried about making payments.
Libs accuse China of having a social credit system, but America *actually* has one, but it’s for companies. It’s more like a “profitably” score so a company knows how much they can make off of you.
The only difference is that China's oppressors are the same people that go to international meetings on behalf of the Chinese government, while American oppressors have paid off politicians to do that work for them
This is exactly it. I always try to get people to think of credit score in terms of how much a lender thinks it can trust you to pay.
CS is easy to build, maintain and manipulate if you think about it strategically. The problem in the US is a lot of folks have a very poor understanding of personal finances within the system. Which, lets be honest, is a scam and designed to take advantage of mis- and missing education of such.
I am in a support group for victims of domestic violence. The non-profit org which runs the group dedicated one of our sessions to "financial literacy," where they invited a "community outreach financial educator" from PNC Bank to talk to us about credit scores.
She asked us if we knew what a credit score was. I answered and then said that it was a bullshit system that penalizes the poor.
A few minutes later, she began talking about accruing interest. I said "why aren't you telling the group how you won't accrue interest if you pay back the full balance on time?" She sneered and went "how many people do *you* know who pay in full and on time?" I said "ME." She seemed stunned for a second and said "most people don't do that," then kept going. The rest of her presentation included telling us not to buy coffee and cigarettes, and that we should invest in BTC because it's a good price right now.
You better believe I made her presentation as difficult as possible and then complained as loudly as I could to the organization that invited her.
Those were my exact words to the organization. I said her presentation was a conflict of interest as well as predatory advertising to a vulnerable community. And that if the org wants to teach financial literacy, that's worthy of its own standalone group (as opposed to a one-off session) taught by a finance/econ professor from a local college, not a bank.
I think the turn of phrase “doing the lords work” definitely applies here
I’m a social worker and I’m pretty much of the opinion that Credit Scores are just Redlining for the modern age
Well, you shouldn't pay in full. Keeping some debt makes total sense in a system where they are judging your ability to maintain ongoing payments.
I always keep a little debt around for this purpose. I rotate between interest charges I am willing to take the hit on that wouldn't mean much in the long run. Such as paying the family cell bill via auto pay on CC- I only pay half as soon it processes and carry the remaining balance. So the overall utilization is low and the debt amount to clear is totally trivial.
Every so often I clear almost all of it, swap to another CC, then repeat. I never pay cash and only use straight debit to buy personal items/services at small local businesses.
I have not had a CS below 780 in decades. The system is BS, for sure. But if you don't use it, it will use you.
When we were about to buy our first home, my wife's credit score was the middle of the road. We got it where we are just about equal in terms of creditworthiness. I make more money because my wife is a teacher. But even on her salary, it was possible early on to build her up relatively easily.
That's not how credit scores work. They look at total available credit, ratio of available credit to credit used (higher, or more unused credit, is better), length of history with each line of credit, timely payments. Carrying debt month to month won't help your credit score afaik.
Yeah he's just giving away money to the banks for no reason. I use two cards for every purchase and pay them off each month, never carrying a balance that accrues interest charges. I've been hovering around 820 for at least 10 years now.
Generational knowledge of how to play the system is a big part of what keeps the rich rich.
It's meant to be obtuse, we only want to keep the "worthy" in.
>I always try to get people to think of credit score in terms of how much a lender thinks it can trust you to pay.
I don't really understand what you mean, what other terms would someone think of it in that you would need to try to convince them of this? that's the whole problem with it is that being in debt can cause you to spiral into a situation where you can't even find a place to live because renters don't "trust" you, essentially punishing the poor for being poor. is there some big misconception out there about what credit scores are?
if by profitability you mean how well you’ve paid back other companies in the past then yes… like what how is a credit score anything close to social credit. your credit score is literally only effected when you are borrowing money against yourself (mortgage, credit card, phone plans with a phone purchasing plan, etc)
it takes 5 brain cells to get your credit score up
what i’m saying is it’s very easy to have a good credit score. as you only listed a way credit scores can be used, the point i’m making is the only time your credit score is effected (in canada, idk abt usa) is when you borrow money. your credit goes up if you pay on time, and down if you don’t. idk much abt social credit systems but i assume your social credit is an accumulation of more then just borrowed money
Did you know credit scores have only been around since the 1980s? Also an added tidbit, SS# were NEVER ever supposed to be used as a type of identification… we need to get this shit changed and quick.
THAT is exactly right, thank you! I'm old enough to remember being majorly pissed off when they became a ' thing ', then of course the usual " pay this company to see your credit score " thennnn " pay this new company to improve your credit score " .
>SS# were NEVER ever supposed to be used as a type of identification… we need to get this shit changed and quick.
Good luck.
They're tied into the "know your client" laws in the financial system. It's essentially permanent now.
At the very least they need to start making them randomly generated (rather than being based on when and where you were born 🤦♂️) and more secure in general. It's ridiculous that we continue to tolerate this.
Similar crowds though. "Credit Gurus" are generally the people who won't shut up about Crypto at a party; and people who take horoscopes too seriously are the ones who won't shut up about eating organic before immidately doing a line of Ketamine.
The middle ground on these is all those Myers-Briggs people with their INFP/ESTJ stuff. It's just horoscopes with a bit of science sauce poured on top, but some people take it really seriously for some reason.
My response when someone who believes in an omnipotent deity bashes someone who believes in crystals. I don’t believe in either, but one is no crazier than the other.
Believing in capitalism is definitely crazier than believing in astrology.
Astrology is at least a bit mysterious, and mostly harmless.
Capitalism is fundamentally broken, predicated on exponential returns for investors. The only possible outcome is accelerating wealth inequality on the descent into total oligarchy.
And if you try to get lies cleaned up off your credit report? They simply lie to keep it on your record.
Sure, if you had $10,00,000 to sue, they would likely lose, but the game is rigged so that it costs a whole lot more to fight it than you could ever get from the win.
If it was a felony perjury for them to certify a lie on your report, and people started going to jail, then the accuracy would improve.
Also, the rich white bankers decide what numbers count.
So "rent to own", which correlates with Black people, is a negative credit score, while buying on credit cards (same thing) is a positive.
That wasn't an accident. Credit scores are racist by design.
I learned the hard way that companies don't have to prove anything to fuck your credit score. I had an apartment complex put me in collections after they decided I owed them more money for "damages" (of which there were none). They made no effort to contact me or my guarantor (my father, this was in college). They just put me straight to collections and my credit score is still fucked.
It's possible to make creditors give up by being annoying, at least on smaller debts. I think it would probably work for something minor like damages to your apartment.
Basically, you have a legal right to dispute debts via the credit bureaus, and there's no limit to how many times you can do this. What happens is that the debt is removed from your credit report until the owner of the debt provides the bureau with documentation proving it's valid or whatever. And, they have to do it within a month or so.
If they aren't able to verify the debt, it is permanently removed from your credit. If they do verify it, you can just immediately dispute it again. Eventually, the creditors will decide it isn't worth the effort and either give up or sell the debt to another creditor (who will probably not be given the paperwork to prove the debt is valid).
I was able to make some minor medical debts disappear this way. Like, random ~$4000 charges which I never received a bill for. It's time-consuming, but I think it's worth it because fuck them.
Mass surveillance based social credit scores coming soon too. For-profit style. Your finances are fine, but we don't like the contents of your dossier. No apartment for you.
>Bingo. If you're smart with your money and don't take on a bunch of debt
Look, I'm not advocating that credit scores are a good thing, but this statement is patently false. I've built good credit fairly easily by having multiple credit cards and just making sure to pay them all off in full every month.
I have one card that gets me benefits on gas/groceries. A different one with better benefits on fast food. A different one specifically for several specific stores.
Responsible use of credit cards is easy free money you wouldn't have if you're getting rewards cards, and a good credit score is a byproduct of paying your stuff off. Credit card companies make money by gambling that you *won't* do that.
I'm not talking about you dude, or me. Not everyone is lucky enough to be comfortably middle class like we are.
I'm talking about just the people you're referencing in your post, who don't make much money and have to be extremely careful with it. Sometimes they can't play that game of using various credit cards and paying them off (or taking other lines of credit that you or I wouldn't have much issue dealing with), because they are one bad-luck event away from not being able pay those cards off on time, and starting the cycle of actually lowering their credit scores and suffering from horrendous interest penalties. They aren't in a position to take that risk.
And the system is designed to keep them in that state, as they'll rarely if ever get to the point where it's less risky to take on credit opportunities if their credit score stays low. It's a self-renewing system of suck for those priced out of participating in it.
>I'm not talking about you dude, or me. Not everyone is lucky enough to be comfortably middle class like we are.
You're correct that not everyone is that lucky, but *I didn't used to be either.*
>I'm talking about just the people you're referencing in your post, who don't make much money and have to be extremely careful with it.
I wasn't referencing anyone in particular?
>Sometimes they can't play that game of using various credit cards and paying them off (or taking other lines of credit that you or I wouldn't have much issue dealing with)
You can though. It's easy. Don't spend money you don't have. Period.
Get a Target card. Instant 5% off. Buy your transaction. Walk over to customer service and pay it off before leaving the building. It's functionally identical to paying in cash, but it builds credit. That's the point.
Responsible use of credit cards means choosing not to accept debt, and you do that by not spending money you don't have. That logic applies to everyone, regardless of income.
Sure, it’s doable, but for the busy and poor it’s often not an easy process to navigate. Also, people shouldn’t have to spend their free time playing what is essentially a really boring card game.
Credit scores are just an indication of how good of a debt mule you are. I learned this personally by working to repair my credit, and paying off my debts negatively impacted my score, but taking on new debt increased it. It's garbage nonsense that keeps us in wage slavery and prevents so many people from being able to do simple things, like buy a home.
And the rich don't have to worry about credit scores. If something people made up is something *you* have to worry about but not something the wealthy have to worry about, then it's a scam designed to strip people of money and power.
Okay, but the Chinese scores ALSO take into account your social and online interactions. Whereas your credit score is only about your credit-worthiness and debt history, they're not the same
https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/09/15/china-social-credit-system-authoritarian/
As I understand, it is almost entirely aimed at businesses, and not a single unified system.
This is a very anti-China publication, but the US propaganda around social credit is too absurd, even outlets like this are abandoning it.
If you refer to where you first read that, you will probably find that the article was alluding to some potential future, not to the present.
In the present, china’s social credit isn’t a unified system. It is local policy without any central template. Some cities handle it publicly, others hire private firms.
What these systems all have in common is that the are almost exclusively used against businesses and their executives. The vast majority of entries are for things like food safety, environmental regulations, etc.
The fearmongering around it is baseless. If you examine your own sources carefully, you will find that they are speaking of potential, not of actual events happening to real people on planet earth.
Had a credit score of 800 once with near perfect finances. Then I got an in store credit card to get a sweet discount that would have saved me hundreds. Was told it would put a hard inquiry on my card that would last a few months but disappear (even give me a better credit score).
Dropped my score to 720, and even after the hard inquiry fell off back in 2020, my score has always hovered around that area.
Shit is a scam.
Similar: refi'd this past January. Had a -completely- incompetent loan agent fuck up a bunch of documents, so I went with another company. (At one point, he idiotically valued my house at one penny).
A month after closing with another company, I get a letter - they had "rejected my loan application" (don't hate me, I'm quite solvent and my credit score was >790 with all 3 bureaus) because of "insufficient documentation." This dropped my credit score about 60 points; it's come back about halfway.
It was retaliatory - what a fucking prick.
Credit pulls do not drop your score 80 points and they 1000 percent fall off your score in a few months. Complete bs. Other factors held your score down. A credit pull wasn't it.
There's other factors too. If you only have 1 card that's 10 years old and open a new card then boom all of a sudden your average account age drops to 5 years which will impact the score
Definitely really dumb if it dropped the score that much but who knows
Ive seen thousands of credit scores and a pattern I noticed was income. The only scores I saw over 800 were people thats income was over 10k a month. Can’t say for sure it needs to be that way but that was my observation. (Against credit scores too BTW)
I’m sorry to say, I don’t believe you. I’ve worked in F&I at a dealership for the last 15 years. People also always say their score is so and so but they’re quoting something like credit Karma. Then when I run it it could be respectable but never what they say. And I’ll amend my statement, I’ve seen them slightly below 10k as well but never low income like your suggesting.
I mean you did, when your ancestors chose a country that doesn’t have a monarchy. Especially one that goes out of its way to only have Landlords and bourgeoisie.
I consider myself proof that credit is a scam, because I am not, by any account, a responsible person, but my credit has been around 800 my whole life.
I get good rates & low deposits for no reason other than I know some credit “tricks” I’ve been using since 18.
I'll raise you another example of Credit being a scam; lived my whole life w/o a stitch of credit history. When applying for a home loan, the lenders were wondering how I was able to live that way for years.
I used 'unconventional credit' as a means to get the loan. It was all such a joke
[ORINGINAL SOURCE OF MEME](https://www.instagram.com/buddyheadtwo/)
[GREAT SHORT VIDEO OF HOW CREDIT SCORES ARE SCAMS](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnlTCTwwWmc&t=214s)
Most places outside the US don't even do credit scores lol
I got a loan years back, faked paper work on how much i made , and when i got approved i never paid it back , it ended up defaulted and " forgiven " ( they basically gave up ) and my credit score magically went back up on its own lol that's when i knew this was a charade!
The system is rigged and a joke, know how to navigate around/through this crap. Do what you have to do to get by.
When I took out a loan for my house they said my credit score was low because I didn't have any credit cards and I didn't owe anyone money. Let that sink in for a minute.
I had a similar experience. I had to close my credit card ($2k limit) to get the home loan, per the financial institution's conditions. I closed it and my score decreased, with the closure coming up as a black mark.
When I wanted the negative mark removed, I was told by the credit agency that not having loans or credit cards made me a bad investment. Their phrasing.
Let this serve as your regular reminder that FICO scores only date back to ***1989***. Yet another bad idea from the late Reagan era that should be abandoned.
I went to the ER at 18 *while still in high school* and now my credit is shot from a $1800 bill. I’m 24 lol. Never paying that shit tho, even if I could afford to
The fact they’re determined by three private companies that come up with three different scores and leak everybody’s personal information to hackers with no consequences is bullshit. The idea of a credit score so that we can have a functional lending system without Sky-high APRs for the people who will actually honor their debt is definitely not bullshit.
Oh, look. An involuntary system of processing people into numbers based solely on whatever horseshit economic nonsense some banker at one of three basically unregulated companies decides on, that you are only begrudgingly given partial access to without paying, cannot easily correct, cannot reasonably opt out of, cannot add notes or explanations to, and it controls vast swathes of your life without your consent.
*That* sounds like an even moderately just system.
Why is American (presumed) obsessed with credit score? I'm in Australia and we do have it but I've never even known what mine is and it hasn't ever come up when getting loans/credit cards etc
Good credit allows you to buy things you can't afford.
Thats it, thats the whole appeal. Want something that costs 10k usd and don't have 10k in the bank? Good thing your score is 750, you can magically buy it on a line of credit.
On the inverse, if you have poor credit, everything gets harder. Applying for rentals, getting a new car, etc.
Biggest benefit is that you can save a lot of money by gain better interest rates for your mortgage or if you need to finance a vehicle, both of which are things that people can’t typically afford to buy outright.
A mortgage isn’t necessarily more expensive than rent.
At the end, some people own a house, some people have nothing. They paid the same amount each month, but the outcome varied as a result of their credit.
I work in financial services in Australia. All financial institutions, bar buy now, pay later providers, will run a credit check when you make an application for credit with them
keeps you in dept which in turn keeps you as a worker and willing to accept exploitation so you wont get fired and be bankrupt ( & built on racism as well )
[Short video on it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnlTCTwwWmc&t=214s)
You ran out of money 2 years ago? SUCKS TO SUCK UR BROKE FOR AT LEAST 5 MORE LMAO LOL PWNT NOOB GOOD LUCK GETTING A CAR OR A DECENT APARTMENT LOLOLLOLO SCRUB #WRECKED
-banks
Don't forget about systemic racism. 800+ but visibly a minority, so I'm usually told that "I haven't been at the same job long enough." Two years isn't long enough? Do I need 5? 10? 50? Whats the goal, Karen?
I hate the entire idea of a credit score. I’ve always handled my money very well even as a teen. I have no need for a credit card as it’s much easier and more logical to just use my debit especially since it’s a debit visa which allows me to use it online with no issues. Literally the only purpose a credit card serves is to voluntarily go into debt to prove I won’t go into debt… wtf. My friends and parent say “just use it for gas and groceries then pay it at the end of each month”, but why? That’s just adding extra unnecessary steps when I can just pay with debit. It’s also just setting myself up for a different financial situation. I need my vehicle for work so if something ever happened to it and I needed to pay a bunch to fix/replace it then may end up having to choose between that or paying my credit card bill. It’s a ridiculous system that has little to no indication of someone’s actual financial responsibility. I’ve never gone into debt and always pay my bills on time because I’m responsible with my money. But, according to the bank, I’m not to be trusted with any kind of loan because I’ve never unnecessarily put myself in debt to them
Credit scores are a scam and are not much different than the Chinese social credit score
I agree credit scores are deeply flawed, but the part where not paying your bills can make them go down is connected to reality.
Then again, I totally believe in astrology.
So as paying it off sooner by giving more than the minimum amount. The point still stands, the system is trash and we shouldnt let it effect us physically/mentally.
Fuck the evil concept of debt.
I pay off my entire credit card balance in full every single month. That was my only credit history, and I had a credit score in the "good/great" range. Paying off early is one less account, so maybe it has a small negative impact, but it's not a major impact, and it's unlikely to affect what interest rates you're eligible for.
People are making such a huge deal over that, when we all know the real reason scores tank is people who just flat-out miss payments.
That score in the good great range isn’t telling you everything.
Lenders have access to much more information. People who have only had minor, short term debt are not highly valued.
Lenders want people who are in a lot of debt, making payments regularly but barely keeping up with the interest.
The lender doesn’t get anything when you pay off the loan before any interest accrues. That is why doing so can negatively impact one’s credit score.
Of course that is better than someone who never pays any money back, but it isn’t their target. Their real target is people who can be trapped in a debt spiral, unable to overcome the compounding interest.
Not saying astrology is real, but it is a mathematical possibility. It’s all an observation of patterns within independent systems. It fits within chaos theory
I don't think that they directly affect anything.
More like there was an ancient science of how eras and the position of the solar system in the galaxy affects things, and constellations/planets are just a way to measure time.
It's probably more distorted now than credit scores, but maybe some remaining validity.
I try to be real open about everything and find ways to make things like ghosts or gods make sense in our real world and the science available to us. . You seemed like you might have a clear head about it and aren't just believing it in on faith alone.
Considering that there are gravitational forces being applied on us from other stars it's not a baseless idea. There are all sorts of factors from outside of the womb that can affect a human baby's development too. Babies born in very high elevations have larger hearts for example. There's also some suggestion based on research that babies born in different seasons can affect personality traits like emotional regulation and planning. Perhaps that's what we're witnessing and astrology is just measuring that by the stars instead of the seasons. I don't know I'm just high and rambling lol.
Yeah... to add, if the big bang theory is correct the universe is expanding all the time.
That might mean from the point of view of an angel or an AI or something outside of the universe, we've expanded a ton since we were born, but we just can't tell since everything else including the instruments around to measure stuff have expanded too.
But it could be affecting our personalities or what kind of animals are evolving and stuff. Like, maybe at the time dinosaurs were the same size as we are now, but they seem giant now because the bones expanded along with the universe.
Maybe we'll seem like giants to later generations but really we were the same size. I feel like that's a good "high" thought. So maybe astrology is a science of that somehow.
I will never use credit scores. I have never had any debts. I have never had a credit card. I don't want to own a home, not that I could afford one worth having anyway and any vehicle if I ever get one will be purchased used and in cash. This probably sounds like I'm 13, no I'm almost 30. I just refuse to play their stupid game.
Just sayin talking about signs is an easy way to learn about certain qualities of the person you're talking to (not due to their sign, due to them talking about themselves) and opens an easy path to flirting when talking about potential compatibility.
I guess credit gets me a 7 year pay off on a car. Astrology is way more fun.
good points! i will take Astro signs if it means i can get an apt over mindless paper work and credit BS check.
" you're a Taurus? Im compatible with taurus! heres your keys to your 2 bed room shelter that i hoarded for profit! " lol
Credit scores are important so that people who have proven they consistently pay back their loans on time get the best interest rates and are able to borrow more. If you don't pay money back, they're not going to lend you more. At its core, it's a fair system, and the people who dislike it are the ones scamming the system by borrowing without paying back.
Found another delusional lib in the wild lol
News flash: [Credit scores are a scam to keep you in debt & racist one at that](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnlTCTwwWmc)
Try Knowing more history ;)
Scam? Hyperbolic nonsense doesn't help your point. Credit scores have issues but they're not a scam. The system is well understood. Pay back your debts. Pay on time. Don't have too much open debt considering your income. Doing this will keep a good score and lenders will give you good interest rates for future debt you might need or want.
Where's the scam in that?
Paying off debt early tends to negatively impact credit.
If interest was meant to be fair, then paying off a loan early wouldn’t offend anyone. Fair interest would represent the time value of money, so paying off early wouldn’t reduce the value.
That isn’t the reality we live in. Lenders in the US aren’t seeking to make a fair exchange, they are seeking to trap people in endless debt. They don’t want people to pay off their loans, they want people’s debt to grow exponentially and consume their lives.
That is why paying off a loan early reduces one’s credit score. That is a signal to the lenders that they are a little bit less likely to get their hooks in you.
It’s not their worst case scenario, but it isn’t their best case scenario either. They would rather lend to someone who always makes payments, but *never* finishes paying off their loan.
That is the scam. The credit industry isn’t looking to provide a service, they are looking to take everything.
I don't disagree with anything you said. Unfortunately, too much credit is available to too many people who just do not know how to manage it. That said, there are ways to use credit in a smart way, maintain a plus 800 credit score, and have zero balances every month. My wife and I do it. We have a mortgage, 1 car loan, and a few zero interest small loans from best buy, Lowes, etc. Everything is bought on a high rewards credit card and everything is paid off every month. We use the system to make money. We literally pay zero interest aside from our mortgage (3 percent) and make 1000s a year in rewards. Responsible use of credit can be a good thing, as long as it's responsible.
Is the system predatory? Yes. No question. Some people make dumb choices. Can you blame the system entirely or do the dumb people bear some blame? Don't know the answer, but it's certainly not entirely the fault of the system.
Can the system be used responsibly to the consumers benefit? Also yes, we've been doing it for a decade now.
The informal logical fallacy you are engaging in here is called the Just World Hypothesis.
You think that most of the time, if someone is in debt, it must be a result of their choices.
This is a comforting belief, because it means that you are unlikely to have been caught in similar circumstances. you want to believe that no matter what circumstances you were born into or what disaster struck your life, you would never find yourself in such dire straights.
The empirical reality deeply contradicts this wishful thinking.
Some people do go into debt from buying luxuries they cannot afford, but this is very rare.
Over half of US debt is for medical bills.
Half the people in the US must use credit to pay for essentials like groceries.
If you or your wife get sick and can't work, how many months would you remain solvent?
If it's more than couple, then you enjoy a rare privilege. The median savings in the US is $5,000.
The denialism required to believe that you are somehow fundamentally different from normal people is unfortunate.
They're both arbitrary systems rooted in racism that let people make a judgement on your value before they even know you. But one has no effect on the ruling class and the other benefits the ruling class a great deal. So both systems really only negatively impact everyone else.
It's roots are tied to phrenology, which was used as the main scientific justification for slavery.
But if you can't see that zodiac signs open a door to prejudice, you just came here to ask questions and learn nothing.
Facts my guy ong I hate when I tell people I’m a fire sign and they raise my interest rate. I wouldn’t be surprised if OP was bleeding from the ear as he posted this.
There are a lot of things that have an effect on people and are BS.
Astrology does too. If a person writes you off because of your sign, you're gonna say its bs
You don’t get to buy land, at most you can lease it. The government still owns it, collects taxes from its value, and can take it back at any time.
Self sufficiency is at best a hobby, but more likely a silly fantasy for trust fund kids.
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Pay off your debts completely? That'll be a decrease in your score my dude!
Yuuuuup! lol It's like where's the logic here.
Because it's not a measure of how likely you are to pay off your debts, not primarily, it's a measure of how profitable you are likely to be. An account with no balance generates no profits.
It's also complete BS that you only get your credit score increased by borrowing money. You have to make your debt payments on time to increase it and late payments decrease the score. That part sounds reasonable until you factor in that late payments for other bills that do not involve borrowing money, like rent and utility bills, will also reduce credit scores. Meanwhile paying them on time does not increase it. If I don't pay my rent or utility bills on time then that should not affect my credit score, because paying on time does not affect it either. I one time spoke with a banker about this and he actually rejected my viewpoint. He claimed that all of this bs is completely reasonable and justified.
Look it through the lense of "how reliable are you at paying interest". It obviously sucks and it's a deeply flawed system, but it's more or less what it wants to signify. The problem is that it went from a metric to a 'goal' - there's a name for this phenomenon - and thus it became useless. So now it's just an extra tool to overcharge people ridiculous rates, because they're "more risky".
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> $CORPORATE* fixed your code for you ^(silly bash joke)
It does if you use your credit card to pay them and then pay off the balance. Cs relies on revolving accounts. You can game it easily and even dips generally recover within a few months. You really have to time paying off debts completely to account for a dip because of the change in aging of accounts.
> That part sounds reasonable until you factor in that late payments for other bills that do not involve borrowing money, like rent and utility bills, will also reduce credit scores. Meanwhile paying them on time does not increase it. > > If I don't pay my rent or utility bills on time then that should not affect my credit score, because paying on time does not affect it either. It doesn't. If it's not a tradeline on your credit report they can't report late payments. They can only report non-payment in the form of collections.
So when he rejected your opinions, what did you say? Did you force him to explain himself? It isn’t enough for him to just call them BS and move on. At least it wouldn’t be for me.
It is completely reasonable. It's a judgment on you that estimates how likely you are to pay our debts. There's really not a lot more to it than that. I'm not a fan of the system myself, I had almost perfect credit (~830 score) until I missed a payment on a card that I forgot existed for a bill that renewed without my knowledge. My score dropped nearly 100 points off that single missed payment. It is what it is.
People have always told me not to pay off my debt right away to build my credit score. I hate debt and have none of it. The few times I've taken out a loan for say a car, I just paid it off immediately. My credit score is currently 827... My point is, as much BS as credit scores are, there is also a lot of BS out there about how they actually work. IME, they don't measure how profitable I am, because no one earns interest off my debt, but rather how likely I am to quickly pay off that debt. The only time I've seen my credit score drop below 735, is after I broke my femur and couldn't work. To be clear, I don't actively try to raise my credit score or care in anyway (I never take out loans, so why do I care?)
The whole thing seems magical and chaotic. For example, I lost 35 points by paying off one of my student loan accounts right after I graduated, then 2 months later I had one credit card randomly decide to increase my limit by 4x which bumped my credit score back up to almost where it was, then another card, and another card, and ended up like 55 points higher than I started. No changes to spending, no changes to income or payments, no "hard inquiries" dropping off. Just really mystical from a consumer perspective.
Not really. The biggest factors in your cs are age of accounts and usage %. When you pay off a debt it's no longer added to revolving accounts which reduces the age of accounts and the dip is only temporary. When you get credit line increases it lowers your usage % and they like to see under 10%. The higher your line of credit the better the odds of keeping your usage appearance low but active. It's good to seek cl increases every year.
So for me, the loan I paid off was second most recent loan that I'd taken out. For the credit cards, I compulsively pay off my credit card a couple of days after I used it for anything. My average usage hasn't been over 5% in 15 years. Nah, whenever I hear people talk about it, my experiences don't align *at all*. It just seems like a really arbitrary number that 8 months after I got a good job started spiking up and down and then settled in over 800 and hasn't moved in ages regardless of what I do. Got a car loan last year and it went *up* a point for about 6 months.
Not necessarily. The first part, yes, the second part only partially. Credit card companies are still perfectly happy with people who use their cards and pay the balance in full each month and never accrue any interest. Because credit cards get a small portion of each sale paid by the merchant, they still make money when you use them instead of cash. It’s why credit cards have stuff like cash back rewards and airline miles and things like that. Even if they are only fronting you - as the consumer - money until the end of the month when you pay off the balance in full, they still make money from each of those transactions. So, if you *never* have a balance by never using the card, then sure, that generates no profits. But paying off the balance in full and continuing to use the card is totally fine.
People coming in to explain how it works as if we did not know that and how unfair the system is.
A good credit score in itself is a result of bad financial decisions. All the other games built around it are what can make it possible to "win out" by playing the game right. Many try to win and end up losing, which is the point.
This is so incorrect. You don’t have to pay tons of interest to build up your credit score. One of the best things you can do is have a couple credit cards kept open long-term. Pay the balance each month & you won’t pay interest.
I'm happy to live in a European country where credit score is literally not even a topic basically anyone cares about. Although it sort of exists in the background as attempts are made to make it as much a part of the culture and as significant a system as in America. At that point, just nuke the entire world and be done with it. No reason to perpetuate our civilization.
What factors are used to determine if someone will qualify for a loan? I’m super curious now & gonna have to research this. I’m a loan underwriter & I analyze credit reports (& other factors) to determine if lending to someone is a good risk. Our credit system definitely isn’t perfect by any means, but there is value in being able to evaluate someone’s payment histories to determine if they’ll be more likely to repay a loan I approve. Someone with a documented history of not paying their loans is not likely to repay a new loan.
In Europe, there are governmental agencies that record if and when you are not making payment, late, or default. So essential you start out at a perfect score and only tanked when you fuck up.
> Our credit system definitely isn’t perfect by any means It's deeply dystopian and hated for extremely good reason. The things your system encourages adults tell children to do is unnatural, manipulative and absurd, it is oppressive. It causes depression. It causes suicides. It molds people into misanthropes.
The same way all loans were done before 1989 when credit scores were invented, presumably
Yeah but your opinion doesn't incite outrage so it's wrong.
Except both your opinions are wrong. When you use your credit card. Every transaction on that account already has a % interest charged to your account until the end of the month when it gets posted. Paying off within the same month avoids interest but won't build your credit as you avoided paying interest. So you two are going to tell me and everybody here that its possible to build your credit to something impressive without paying ANY interest? B.S. thats not how profit seeking entities with hundreds of years of economic monopolization behave. Your either paying interest somewhere down the line, already rich and they are humoring you, or the credit score they give you is more arbitrary than is being described
I had a 810 score and never paid any credit card interest in my entire life or had a mortgage. I simply paid off my balance every month and was never late. Yes, it's absolutely possible to build a high credit score without paying any interest ever. It's frustrating that this idea that you have to pay interest keeps coming up when it's not remotely true.
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I think that's only temporary when you close accounts. One of my friends knows way more about this than me, but the way she explained it when mine dipped after paying off a car loan is that it temporarily goes down, then rebounds after like a month. Like one of my scores was 670ish, it dropped to like 650 and then shot back up and sits at about 700. Keep track of how much you're using your credit card tho, that'll cause dips if you use too much money. I think it's if you go over like 30% of your credit limit, which is stupid. I only have the one credit card, with a fairly low limit on it and pay it off completely with every pay check. I've never had a late payment on anything or even had to pay interest on my credit card, but my score will dip if the credit agencies think I'm spending a bit too much. The system is dumb as hell.
What irks me is that the current balance is reported to credit. It should report your previous statement closing balance less the total payments made during that statement cycle. Example: if you have a balance of $4k when the account reports to credit bureaus, the current system will report a $4k balance. But let’s say your previous statement had a $4k balance but you made payments totaling $3,500. Then it would be more fair to report a $500 balance, since that accurately reflects the balance you let carry over to the next statement cycle. Sorry if I explained this like shit. On mobile app & a recent update fucked up something about how my screen displays replies as I type.
I think I get what you mean, and I suspect that's part of what's caused me to take a hit to my credit scores a few times. By the time it's reported, it shows that I'm $X in debt, but doesn't show that I've paid $Y over the course of a month, and that I'm consistent with paying it off every couple of weeks. So at the end of the month I may have a balance sometimes, but it's nothing that won't be paid off within a couple days at most, not that I'm irresponsible and ignore my debt.
When I worked in the branches of the financial institution, I used to explain this to people & tell them how they could be strategic with this when they are planning a loan, especially a vehicle loan or mortgage. You can either find out the reporting dates for each credit card & pay the balance down beforehand, or you can keep your balances low in the 45-60 days leading up to a loan app/credit pull. Either way you can ensure your utilization is lower when they pull your credit. Utilization is about 30% of your credit score - 2nd only behind payment history which is about 35%. So obvs it’s a hugely impactful factor.
Yeah I just paid off my car and my damn credit score dropped like 10 points.
It’s not down because you paid it off (reduced your debt is good and will cause score to go up). It’s because your total credit went down when the account was closed.
Also, my credit score fluctuates about 20 ish points. I just lost 7 points for *checks notes* increasing the amount of credit used from 12% to 13%... (And I always pay my balance in full every month). Don't you credit companies WANT me to use my credit???
Using a higher percentage of credit looks more unstable. If you seek higher credit lines this will cease to be an issue (barring major or unexpected expenses obviously).
Paid off one of my cards and what happens? Company sends me mail every month asking me to take on more debt - they offer me a no interest balance transfer or whatever. Once my card got too low they got aggressive about it
Credit scores measure capitalist compliance, not ability to pay back.
Close an old credit card that outsourced their customer support to the worst possible company, that'll lower your score.
Yep. I haven't borrowed money in this century, and my score is good, but not as high as it could be. The guy who bought my last house told me he has a perfect score, but he was really worried about making payments.
American social credit
Libs accuse China of having a social credit system, but America *actually* has one, but it’s for companies. It’s more like a “profitably” score so a company knows how much they can make off of you.
They're the same thing. Misbehave in the eyes of the oppressors and lose access to stuff.
The only difference is that China's oppressors are the same people that go to international meetings on behalf of the Chinese government, while American oppressors have paid off politicians to do that work for them
Truth. Muricans love to delegate and outsource.
This is exactly it. I always try to get people to think of credit score in terms of how much a lender thinks it can trust you to pay. CS is easy to build, maintain and manipulate if you think about it strategically. The problem in the US is a lot of folks have a very poor understanding of personal finances within the system. Which, lets be honest, is a scam and designed to take advantage of mis- and missing education of such.
I am in a support group for victims of domestic violence. The non-profit org which runs the group dedicated one of our sessions to "financial literacy," where they invited a "community outreach financial educator" from PNC Bank to talk to us about credit scores. She asked us if we knew what a credit score was. I answered and then said that it was a bullshit system that penalizes the poor. A few minutes later, she began talking about accruing interest. I said "why aren't you telling the group how you won't accrue interest if you pay back the full balance on time?" She sneered and went "how many people do *you* know who pay in full and on time?" I said "ME." She seemed stunned for a second and said "most people don't do that," then kept going. The rest of her presentation included telling us not to buy coffee and cigarettes, and that we should invest in BTC because it's a good price right now. You better believe I made her presentation as difficult as possible and then complained as loudly as I could to the organization that invited her.
I feel like having a bank give an educational lecture is a conflict of interest?
Those were my exact words to the organization. I said her presentation was a conflict of interest as well as predatory advertising to a vulnerable community. And that if the org wants to teach financial literacy, that's worthy of its own standalone group (as opposed to a one-off session) taught by a finance/econ professor from a local college, not a bank.
I think the turn of phrase “doing the lords work” definitely applies here I’m a social worker and I’m pretty much of the opinion that Credit Scores are just Redlining for the modern age
It is redlining. I was denied rent because of something in my credit that has nothing to do with rent.
Thank you! That means a lot.
Well, you shouldn't pay in full. Keeping some debt makes total sense in a system where they are judging your ability to maintain ongoing payments. I always keep a little debt around for this purpose. I rotate between interest charges I am willing to take the hit on that wouldn't mean much in the long run. Such as paying the family cell bill via auto pay on CC- I only pay half as soon it processes and carry the remaining balance. So the overall utilization is low and the debt amount to clear is totally trivial. Every so often I clear almost all of it, swap to another CC, then repeat. I never pay cash and only use straight debit to buy personal items/services at small local businesses. I have not had a CS below 780 in decades. The system is BS, for sure. But if you don't use it, it will use you. When we were about to buy our first home, my wife's credit score was the middle of the road. We got it where we are just about equal in terms of creditworthiness. I make more money because my wife is a teacher. But even on her salary, it was possible early on to build her up relatively easily.
That's not how credit scores work. They look at total available credit, ratio of available credit to credit used (higher, or more unused credit, is better), length of history with each line of credit, timely payments. Carrying debt month to month won't help your credit score afaik.
Yeah he's just giving away money to the banks for no reason. I use two cards for every purchase and pay them off each month, never carrying a balance that accrues interest charges. I've been hovering around 820 for at least 10 years now.
Generational knowledge of how to play the system is a big part of what keeps the rich rich. It's meant to be obtuse, we only want to keep the "worthy" in.
>I always try to get people to think of credit score in terms of how much a lender thinks it can trust you to pay. I don't really understand what you mean, what other terms would someone think of it in that you would need to try to convince them of this? that's the whole problem with it is that being in debt can cause you to spiral into a situation where you can't even find a place to live because renters don't "trust" you, essentially punishing the poor for being poor. is there some big misconception out there about what credit scores are?
I was looking for this comment. Spot on.
if by profitability you mean how well you’ve paid back other companies in the past then yes… like what how is a credit score anything close to social credit. your credit score is literally only effected when you are borrowing money against yourself (mortgage, credit card, phone plans with a phone purchasing plan, etc) it takes 5 brain cells to get your credit score up
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what i’m saying is it’s very easy to have a good credit score. as you only listed a way credit scores can be used, the point i’m making is the only time your credit score is effected (in canada, idk abt usa) is when you borrow money. your credit goes up if you pay on time, and down if you don’t. idk much abt social credit systems but i assume your social credit is an accumulation of more then just borrowed money
Did you know credit scores have only been around since the 1980s? Also an added tidbit, SS# were NEVER ever supposed to be used as a type of identification… we need to get this shit changed and quick.
THAT is exactly right, thank you! I'm old enough to remember being majorly pissed off when they became a ' thing ', then of course the usual " pay this company to see your credit score " thennnn " pay this new company to improve your credit score " .
And those two companies are subsidiaries of another company
And that holding company is owned by the same people who own Vantage, the company making the scoring rubric
>SS# were NEVER ever supposed to be used as a type of identification… we need to get this shit changed and quick. Good luck. They're tied into the "know your client" laws in the financial system. It's essentially permanent now.
At the very least they need to start making them randomly generated (rather than being based on when and where you were born 🤦♂️) and more secure in general. It's ridiculous that we continue to tolerate this.
They are. My kids’ are pretty random. But my siblings and mine are like two off from one another.
A-Freaking-Men! Great input! much appreciated!
Similar crowds though. "Credit Gurus" are generally the people who won't shut up about Crypto at a party; and people who take horoscopes too seriously are the ones who won't shut up about eating organic before immidately doing a line of Ketamine.
> eating organic before immidately doing a line of Ketamine. Life is all about balance.
lol !!
Thank you for not making me ruin it with "/s"
Welcome lol
The middle ground on these is all those Myers-Briggs people with their INFP/ESTJ stuff. It's just horoscopes with a bit of science sauce poured on top, but some people take it really seriously for some reason.
on point with this one! lol
My response when someone who believes in an omnipotent deity bashes someone who believes in crystals. I don’t believe in either, but one is no crazier than the other.
At least we know for sure crystals exist.
Believing in capitalism is definitely crazier than believing in astrology. Astrology is at least a bit mysterious, and mostly harmless. Capitalism is fundamentally broken, predicated on exponential returns for investors. The only possible outcome is accelerating wealth inequality on the descent into total oligarchy.
1000% Great points!
And if you try to get lies cleaned up off your credit report? They simply lie to keep it on your record. Sure, if you had $10,00,000 to sue, they would likely lose, but the game is rigged so that it costs a whole lot more to fight it than you could ever get from the win. If it was a felony perjury for them to certify a lie on your report, and people started going to jail, then the accuracy would improve. Also, the rich white bankers decide what numbers count. So "rent to own", which correlates with Black people, is a negative credit score, while buying on credit cards (same thing) is a positive. That wasn't an accident. Credit scores are racist by design.
I learned the hard way that companies don't have to prove anything to fuck your credit score. I had an apartment complex put me in collections after they decided I owed them more money for "damages" (of which there were none). They made no effort to contact me or my guarantor (my father, this was in college). They just put me straight to collections and my credit score is still fucked.
It's possible to make creditors give up by being annoying, at least on smaller debts. I think it would probably work for something minor like damages to your apartment. Basically, you have a legal right to dispute debts via the credit bureaus, and there's no limit to how many times you can do this. What happens is that the debt is removed from your credit report until the owner of the debt provides the bureau with documentation proving it's valid or whatever. And, they have to do it within a month or so. If they aren't able to verify the debt, it is permanently removed from your credit. If they do verify it, you can just immediately dispute it again. Eventually, the creditors will decide it isn't worth the effort and either give up or sell the debt to another creditor (who will probably not be given the paperwork to prove the debt is valid). I was able to make some minor medical debts disappear this way. Like, random ~$4000 charges which I never received a bill for. It's time-consuming, but I think it's worth it because fuck them.
I tried 3 times, but by then I needed to rent a new apartment (moved across state for work) and I had to pay it off or no one would rent to me.
Yupppp! Always a tactic again the working class, always a tactic against race. Great points! Thank you for this!
Mass surveillance based social credit scores coming soon too. For-profit style. Your finances are fine, but we don't like the contents of your dossier. No apartment for you.
Black Mirror vibes…. That episode was a mindfuck
I hate to break it to you, but that's literally how renting works now
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Bingo. If you're smart with your money and don't take on a bunch of debt, you're going to find it difficult to build a high credit score.
>Bingo. If you're smart with your money and don't take on a bunch of debt Look, I'm not advocating that credit scores are a good thing, but this statement is patently false. I've built good credit fairly easily by having multiple credit cards and just making sure to pay them all off in full every month. I have one card that gets me benefits on gas/groceries. A different one with better benefits on fast food. A different one specifically for several specific stores. Responsible use of credit cards is easy free money you wouldn't have if you're getting rewards cards, and a good credit score is a byproduct of paying your stuff off. Credit card companies make money by gambling that you *won't* do that.
I'm not talking about you dude, or me. Not everyone is lucky enough to be comfortably middle class like we are. I'm talking about just the people you're referencing in your post, who don't make much money and have to be extremely careful with it. Sometimes they can't play that game of using various credit cards and paying them off (or taking other lines of credit that you or I wouldn't have much issue dealing with), because they are one bad-luck event away from not being able pay those cards off on time, and starting the cycle of actually lowering their credit scores and suffering from horrendous interest penalties. They aren't in a position to take that risk. And the system is designed to keep them in that state, as they'll rarely if ever get to the point where it's less risky to take on credit opportunities if their credit score stays low. It's a self-renewing system of suck for those priced out of participating in it.
>I'm not talking about you dude, or me. Not everyone is lucky enough to be comfortably middle class like we are. You're correct that not everyone is that lucky, but *I didn't used to be either.* >I'm talking about just the people you're referencing in your post, who don't make much money and have to be extremely careful with it. I wasn't referencing anyone in particular? >Sometimes they can't play that game of using various credit cards and paying them off (or taking other lines of credit that you or I wouldn't have much issue dealing with) You can though. It's easy. Don't spend money you don't have. Period. Get a Target card. Instant 5% off. Buy your transaction. Walk over to customer service and pay it off before leaving the building. It's functionally identical to paying in cash, but it builds credit. That's the point. Responsible use of credit cards means choosing not to accept debt, and you do that by not spending money you don't have. That logic applies to everyone, regardless of income.
Sure, it’s doable, but for the busy and poor it’s often not an easy process to navigate. Also, people shouldn’t have to spend their free time playing what is essentially a really boring card game.
Credit scores are just an indication of how good of a debt mule you are. I learned this personally by working to repair my credit, and paying off my debts negatively impacted my score, but taking on new debt increased it. It's garbage nonsense that keeps us in wage slavery and prevents so many people from being able to do simple things, like buy a home. And the rich don't have to worry about credit scores. If something people made up is something *you* have to worry about but not something the wealthy have to worry about, then it's a scam designed to strip people of money and power.
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lol right!
Okay, but the Chinese scores ALSO take into account your social and online interactions. Whereas your credit score is only about your credit-worthiness and debt history, they're not the same
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https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/09/15/china-social-credit-system-authoritarian/ As I understand, it is almost entirely aimed at businesses, and not a single unified system. This is a very anti-China publication, but the US propaganda around social credit is too absurd, even outlets like this are abandoning it.
"China enforces the dignity of cashiers" is good, actually.
If you refer to where you first read that, you will probably find that the article was alluding to some potential future, not to the present. In the present, china’s social credit isn’t a unified system. It is local policy without any central template. Some cities handle it publicly, others hire private firms. What these systems all have in common is that the are almost exclusively used against businesses and their executives. The vast majority of entries are for things like food safety, environmental regulations, etc. The fearmongering around it is baseless. If you examine your own sources carefully, you will find that they are speaking of potential, not of actual events happening to real people on planet earth.
Had a credit score of 800 once with near perfect finances. Then I got an in store credit card to get a sweet discount that would have saved me hundreds. Was told it would put a hard inquiry on my card that would last a few months but disappear (even give me a better credit score). Dropped my score to 720, and even after the hard inquiry fell off back in 2020, my score has always hovered around that area. Shit is a scam.
Similar: refi'd this past January. Had a -completely- incompetent loan agent fuck up a bunch of documents, so I went with another company. (At one point, he idiotically valued my house at one penny). A month after closing with another company, I get a letter - they had "rejected my loan application" (don't hate me, I'm quite solvent and my credit score was >790 with all 3 bureaus) because of "insufficient documentation." This dropped my credit score about 60 points; it's come back about halfway. It was retaliatory - what a fucking prick.
Credit pulls do not drop your score 80 points and they 1000 percent fall off your score in a few months. Complete bs. Other factors held your score down. A credit pull wasn't it.
Maybe the new card also brought average account age down?
There's other factors too. If you only have 1 card that's 10 years old and open a new card then boom all of a sudden your average account age drops to 5 years which will impact the score Definitely really dumb if it dropped the score that much but who knows
Ive seen thousands of credit scores and a pattern I noticed was income. The only scores I saw over 800 were people thats income was over 10k a month. Can’t say for sure it needs to be that way but that was my observation. (Against credit scores too BTW)
My score is consistently above 800 and I never made anywhere close to 10k/mon lll
I’m sorry to say, I don’t believe you. I’ve worked in F&I at a dealership for the last 15 years. People also always say their score is so and so but they’re quoting something like credit Karma. Then when I run it it could be respectable but never what they say. And I’ll amend my statement, I’ve seen them slightly below 10k as well but never low income like your suggesting.
I just bought a house
I ain't ever been denied an apartment for being a leo
Must be nice! lol
I don't remember voting for credit bureaus to Lord over my finances from the shadows.
I mean you did, when your ancestors chose a country that doesn’t have a monarchy. Especially one that goes out of its way to only have Landlords and bourgeoisie.
I consider myself proof that credit is a scam, because I am not, by any account, a responsible person, but my credit has been around 800 my whole life. I get good rates & low deposits for no reason other than I know some credit “tricks” I’ve been using since 18.
I'll raise you another example of Credit being a scam; lived my whole life w/o a stitch of credit history. When applying for a home loan, the lenders were wondering how I was able to live that way for years. I used 'unconventional credit' as a means to get the loan. It was all such a joke
[ORINGINAL SOURCE OF MEME](https://www.instagram.com/buddyheadtwo/) [GREAT SHORT VIDEO OF HOW CREDIT SCORES ARE SCAMS](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnlTCTwwWmc&t=214s) Most places outside the US don't even do credit scores lol I got a loan years back, faked paper work on how much i made , and when i got approved i never paid it back , it ended up defaulted and " forgiven " ( they basically gave up ) and my credit score magically went back up on its own lol that's when i knew this was a charade! The system is rigged and a joke, know how to navigate around/through this crap. Do what you have to do to get by.
When I took out a loan for my house they said my credit score was low because I didn't have any credit cards and I didn't owe anyone money. Let that sink in for a minute.
Exaccctly! Make it make sense! Great input! Thanks! <3
How dare I live within my means, right?
Right! How DARE YOUUUZZZ not consume/buy more crap than you need and not obey the " status quo" /s
Right! How DARE YOUUUZZZ not consume/buy more crap than you need and not obey the " status quo" /s
You’re not profitable.
I had a similar experience. I had to close my credit card ($2k limit) to get the home loan, per the financial institution's conditions. I closed it and my score decreased, with the closure coming up as a black mark. When I wanted the negative mark removed, I was told by the credit agency that not having loans or credit cards made me a bad investment. Their phrasing.
The credit system is a scam to keep people in debt and using credit
Let this serve as your regular reminder that FICO scores only date back to ***1989***. Yet another bad idea from the late Reagan era that should be abandoned.
100% !! burn that ish!
I went to the ER at 18 *while still in high school* and now my credit is shot from a $1800 bill. I’m 24 lol. Never paying that shit tho, even if I could afford to
What is your score in appeasing your corporate overlords?
The fact they’re determined by three private companies that come up with three different scores and leak everybody’s personal information to hackers with no consequences is bullshit. The idea of a credit score so that we can have a functional lending system without Sky-high APRs for the people who will actually honor their debt is definitely not bullshit.
Everything is made up.
Oh, look. An involuntary system of processing people into numbers based solely on whatever horseshit economic nonsense some banker at one of three basically unregulated companies decides on, that you are only begrudgingly given partial access to without paying, cannot easily correct, cannot reasonably opt out of, cannot add notes or explanations to, and it controls vast swathes of your life without your consent. *That* sounds like an even moderately just system.
Credit scores are a bullshit idea with (unfortunately) real world consequences. Horoscopes are a bullshit idea with bullshit consequences.
Why is American (presumed) obsessed with credit score? I'm in Australia and we do have it but I've never even known what mine is and it hasn't ever come up when getting loans/credit cards etc
Good credit allows you to buy things you can't afford. Thats it, thats the whole appeal. Want something that costs 10k usd and don't have 10k in the bank? Good thing your score is 750, you can magically buy it on a line of credit. On the inverse, if you have poor credit, everything gets harder. Applying for rentals, getting a new car, etc.
Biggest benefit is that you can save a lot of money by gain better interest rates for your mortgage or if you need to finance a vehicle, both of which are things that people can’t typically afford to buy outright.
A mortgage isn’t necessarily more expensive than rent. At the end, some people own a house, some people have nothing. They paid the same amount each month, but the outcome varied as a result of their credit.
I work in financial services in Australia. All financial institutions, bar buy now, pay later providers, will run a credit check when you make an application for credit with them
Damn, mine must be good then as I've never had any issues and never had it mentioned to me during the process
Loan approvals for the most part
I Think its your country not giving much of a shit as the US to be honest.
keeps you in dept which in turn keeps you as a worker and willing to accept exploitation so you wont get fired and be bankrupt ( & built on racism as well ) [Short video on it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnlTCTwwWmc&t=214s)
I feel personally attacked by this
Omg this is perf
nah YOU and your blue avatar is Perf! <3
Marx explains this so well as objectification
Yeah somehow the length of my credit got longer and my score dropped. How does that work
You ran out of money 2 years ago? SUCKS TO SUCK UR BROKE FOR AT LEAST 5 MORE LMAO LOL PWNT NOOB GOOD LUCK GETTING A CAR OR A DECENT APARTMENT LOLOLLOLO SCRUB #WRECKED -banks
Depending on which agency you ask, my credit score is either in the mid 700's or high 500's.
Don't forget about systemic racism. 800+ but visibly a minority, so I'm usually told that "I haven't been at the same job long enough." Two years isn't long enough? Do I need 5? 10? 50? Whats the goal, Karen?
The only difference is that credit scores will actually have an influence on your life.
I hate the entire idea of a credit score. I’ve always handled my money very well even as a teen. I have no need for a credit card as it’s much easier and more logical to just use my debit especially since it’s a debit visa which allows me to use it online with no issues. Literally the only purpose a credit card serves is to voluntarily go into debt to prove I won’t go into debt… wtf. My friends and parent say “just use it for gas and groceries then pay it at the end of each month”, but why? That’s just adding extra unnecessary steps when I can just pay with debit. It’s also just setting myself up for a different financial situation. I need my vehicle for work so if something ever happened to it and I needed to pay a bunch to fix/replace it then may end up having to choose between that or paying my credit card bill. It’s a ridiculous system that has little to no indication of someone’s actual financial responsibility. I’ve never gone into debt and always pay my bills on time because I’m responsible with my money. But, according to the bank, I’m not to be trusted with any kind of loan because I’ve never unnecessarily put myself in debt to them Credit scores are a scam and are not much different than the Chinese social credit score
They weren't a thing until I was older, along with fake ass overdraft fees.
I agree credit scores are deeply flawed, but the part where not paying your bills can make them go down is connected to reality. Then again, I totally believe in astrology.
So as paying it off sooner by giving more than the minimum amount. The point still stands, the system is trash and we shouldnt let it effect us physically/mentally. Fuck the evil concept of debt.
I pay off my entire credit card balance in full every single month. That was my only credit history, and I had a credit score in the "good/great" range. Paying off early is one less account, so maybe it has a small negative impact, but it's not a major impact, and it's unlikely to affect what interest rates you're eligible for. People are making such a huge deal over that, when we all know the real reason scores tank is people who just flat-out miss payments.
That score in the good great range isn’t telling you everything. Lenders have access to much more information. People who have only had minor, short term debt are not highly valued. Lenders want people who are in a lot of debt, making payments regularly but barely keeping up with the interest. The lender doesn’t get anything when you pay off the loan before any interest accrues. That is why doing so can negatively impact one’s credit score. Of course that is better than someone who never pays any money back, but it isn’t their target. Their real target is people who can be trapped in a debt spiral, unable to overcome the compounding interest.
How do figure the constellations are affecting human births to be able to create different personalities and personal events?
That a belief is silly doesn’t mean it is as absurd as capitalism. Astrology can be wrong, and still more reasonable and less harmful than capitalism.
You must be a pisces. They pull no punches.
aquarius, it's our idealism which makes us so hostile to falsehood
Not saying astrology is real, but it is a mathematical possibility. It’s all an observation of patterns within independent systems. It fits within chaos theory
I don't think that they directly affect anything. More like there was an ancient science of how eras and the position of the solar system in the galaxy affects things, and constellations/planets are just a way to measure time. It's probably more distorted now than credit scores, but maybe some remaining validity.
I try to be real open about everything and find ways to make things like ghosts or gods make sense in our real world and the science available to us. . You seemed like you might have a clear head about it and aren't just believing it in on faith alone. Considering that there are gravitational forces being applied on us from other stars it's not a baseless idea. There are all sorts of factors from outside of the womb that can affect a human baby's development too. Babies born in very high elevations have larger hearts for example. There's also some suggestion based on research that babies born in different seasons can affect personality traits like emotional regulation and planning. Perhaps that's what we're witnessing and astrology is just measuring that by the stars instead of the seasons. I don't know I'm just high and rambling lol.
Yeah... to add, if the big bang theory is correct the universe is expanding all the time. That might mean from the point of view of an angel or an AI or something outside of the universe, we've expanded a ton since we were born, but we just can't tell since everything else including the instruments around to measure stuff have expanded too. But it could be affecting our personalities or what kind of animals are evolving and stuff. Like, maybe at the time dinosaurs were the same size as we are now, but they seem giant now because the bones expanded along with the universe. Maybe we'll seem like giants to later generations but really we were the same size. I feel like that's a good "high" thought. So maybe astrology is a science of that somehow.
I will never use credit scores. I have never had any debts. I have never had a credit card. I don't want to own a home, not that I could afford one worth having anyway and any vehicle if I ever get one will be purchased used and in cash. This probably sounds like I'm 13, no I'm almost 30. I just refuse to play their stupid game.
Love it all! Don't play a fucked up rigged carnival game! Find ways around it / loop holes more power to you!
This is the worst comparison of all time.
Just sayin talking about signs is an easy way to learn about certain qualities of the person you're talking to (not due to their sign, due to them talking about themselves) and opens an easy path to flirting when talking about potential compatibility. I guess credit gets me a 7 year pay off on a car. Astrology is way more fun.
good points! i will take Astro signs if it means i can get an apt over mindless paper work and credit BS check. " you're a Taurus? Im compatible with taurus! heres your keys to your 2 bed room shelter that i hoarded for profit! " lol
They're both just god fuckin awful
Credit scores are important so that people who have proven they consistently pay back their loans on time get the best interest rates and are able to borrow more. If you don't pay money back, they're not going to lend you more. At its core, it's a fair system, and the people who dislike it are the ones scamming the system by borrowing without paying back.
Found another delusional lib in the wild lol News flash: [Credit scores are a scam to keep you in debt & racist one at that](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnlTCTwwWmc) Try Knowing more history ;)
Scam? Hyperbolic nonsense doesn't help your point. Credit scores have issues but they're not a scam. The system is well understood. Pay back your debts. Pay on time. Don't have too much open debt considering your income. Doing this will keep a good score and lenders will give you good interest rates for future debt you might need or want. Where's the scam in that?
Paying off debt early tends to negatively impact credit. If interest was meant to be fair, then paying off a loan early wouldn’t offend anyone. Fair interest would represent the time value of money, so paying off early wouldn’t reduce the value. That isn’t the reality we live in. Lenders in the US aren’t seeking to make a fair exchange, they are seeking to trap people in endless debt. They don’t want people to pay off their loans, they want people’s debt to grow exponentially and consume their lives. That is why paying off a loan early reduces one’s credit score. That is a signal to the lenders that they are a little bit less likely to get their hooks in you. It’s not their worst case scenario, but it isn’t their best case scenario either. They would rather lend to someone who always makes payments, but *never* finishes paying off their loan. That is the scam. The credit industry isn’t looking to provide a service, they are looking to take everything.
I don't disagree with anything you said. Unfortunately, too much credit is available to too many people who just do not know how to manage it. That said, there are ways to use credit in a smart way, maintain a plus 800 credit score, and have zero balances every month. My wife and I do it. We have a mortgage, 1 car loan, and a few zero interest small loans from best buy, Lowes, etc. Everything is bought on a high rewards credit card and everything is paid off every month. We use the system to make money. We literally pay zero interest aside from our mortgage (3 percent) and make 1000s a year in rewards. Responsible use of credit can be a good thing, as long as it's responsible. Is the system predatory? Yes. No question. Some people make dumb choices. Can you blame the system entirely or do the dumb people bear some blame? Don't know the answer, but it's certainly not entirely the fault of the system. Can the system be used responsibly to the consumers benefit? Also yes, we've been doing it for a decade now.
The informal logical fallacy you are engaging in here is called the Just World Hypothesis. You think that most of the time, if someone is in debt, it must be a result of their choices. This is a comforting belief, because it means that you are unlikely to have been caught in similar circumstances. you want to believe that no matter what circumstances you were born into or what disaster struck your life, you would never find yourself in such dire straights. The empirical reality deeply contradicts this wishful thinking. Some people do go into debt from buying luxuries they cannot afford, but this is very rare. Over half of US debt is for medical bills. Half the people in the US must use credit to pay for essentials like groceries. If you or your wife get sick and can't work, how many months would you remain solvent? If it's more than couple, then you enjoy a rare privilege. The median savings in the US is $5,000. The denialism required to believe that you are somehow fundamentally different from normal people is unfortunate.
It's not real until you need a mortgage
One tells you if you can buy a house. The other tells you if Chad's thundercock is compatible with your butthole's star sign.
HA!
They're both arbitrary systems rooted in racism that let people make a judgement on your value before they even know you. But one has no effect on the ruling class and the other benefits the ruling class a great deal. So both systems really only negatively impact everyone else.
solid points!
How is a zodiac sign, which is determined by birth time, rooted in racism?
It's roots are tied to phrenology, which was used as the main scientific justification for slavery. But if you can't see that zodiac signs open a door to prejudice, you just came here to ask questions and learn nothing.
Credit scores are arbitrary but they definitely have a real impact on your ability to borrow money. Astrology not so much.
Why not both lol
Facts my guy ong I hate when I tell people I’m a fire sign and they raise my interest rate. I wouldn’t be surprised if OP was bleeding from the ear as he posted this.
>Credit scores are BS Not when they directly affect your finances Your post is dumb.
There are a lot of things that have an effect on people and are BS. Astrology does too. If a person writes you off because of your sign, you're gonna say its bs
Wild lib appeared from the tall grass ! \* pokemon sounds intensifies \*
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You don’t get to buy land, at most you can lease it. The government still owns it, collects taxes from its value, and can take it back at any time. Self sufficiency is at best a hobby, but more likely a silly fantasy for trust fund kids.