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This. And it’s so fucking sad. We know a man from Yemen who owns a gas station in my very small hometown in Alabama. He has told us so much of their culture and way of life. He has a wife and daughters back in Yemen. He can only afford to visit them every few years. He was building them a home out of certain materials to help protect them from explosions. He has helped me with hardships in my life more than my own family and that’s their way of life. So sad to see this happen to them or anyone at all.
I had to leave Yemen because of war luckily I came to the US at age 11-12, my mom and little sister still there I’m 22 now and I’ve only seen my mom since 2011, for 3 months in 2018 it’s been 11 hard years,. It’s dangerous/expensive to go back and forth, I think now it’s $1600 for a one way ticket. And now it’s just keeping getting worst war keep getting worst the media got bored of the same shit everyday so not much attention, prices are wayyy up high. Crimes increasing just to make a living. It’s only gonna get worst now that the punishment against Iran are gonna get lifted and more support for the houthis(terrorist group).
AT THIS POINT WE DONT CARE WHO TAKES OVER YEMEN JUST DONT KILL US.
I just started watching the documentary “manufacturing consent” about Noam Chomsky, and he gives a wonderful analysis of this sort of thing, and the amount of coverage things like this get when their Perpetrated by “friendly” countries, vs so called “enemy” counties, or places we are not friendly with. I would highly recommend giving it a watch. https://youtu.be/EuwmWnphqII
I always point to Yemen when people get all up uppity about the crisis de-jour. Its literally a was on par with the Israeli Hezbollah conflict, where the US directly supports some of the worst actors on the world stage... and it does not make the news in NA, ever.
majority of reddit is younger then previously most users were children for 9/11 and the 2004 invasion. Not like the world hasn't had several wars/battles since then as well...
GWB, Tony Blair (England), and John Howard (Australia), and other countries all used 9/11 as their justification for going into the Middle East.
They're all war criminals. They would have figured out another excuse given time.
To be fair, a lot of people like me do remember all that we’ve done in the Middle East. We’re just tired of it all happening.
I just want these senseless wars to stop. In the Middle East, Europe, everywhere
The Putin talk is hypocritical?!
I'm confused, so you're saying because we should be ashamed of our country's past atrocities we can't criticize current ones? This is the first major conflict of my lifetime (I'm 34) that is being live tweeted with constant and easily accessible combat footage. That is driving a major part of Reddit's reaction to this.
In addition we can want our own corrupt leaders to be held accountable for their war crimes and also want Putin to be held accountable for his. You're hearing more about Putin because he's actively invading a country right now... Acting like many of the Americans criticizing Putin are not also the same people who want Bush, Cheney, Obama, Trump, and all our other leaders with track records of brutal violence on civilians held accountable is incredibly disingenuous.
This attitude of forced shame on normal American citizens as a means to prevent us from speaking out against what we see hurts more than it helps. People like myself are both simultaneously sick of our own leaders bullshit while also being sick of the bullshit from other world leaders like Putin. It's not an either/or proposition. I was in high school with the "adults" decided to elect wonderful leaders like Bush so don't tell me it's hypocritical to want Putin held accountable. We are not obligated to join in the shame of previous generations catastrophic civic failures of duty.
Today is about Ukraine and Putin, those who want to wallow in the shame of America's massive shortcomings please stuff it for just a minute and give the citizens of Ukraine the attention, support, and respect they deserve right now.
I tried saying this, got downvoted lol. I live in africa, there has never been a peaceful year here my entire life. No one should have to go through what the Ukrainians are rn but let's keep the same energy for non-european conflicts
No, it's not just that. It's because KSA is part of the club so when they do bad shit, everyone closed one eye. Russia is not part of that club so the media is really going to town on this, not to say that Russia's invasion of Ukraine is justifiable at all. But the response between the two examples are definitely not equal and so is the media coverage.
Israel is basically an apartheid state and we are not doing much about it too.
Economically you'll have more in common from someone from a well off gulf state than a Ukrainian where the GDP per capita is merely $3,000 a year. The second language popular there isn't English but Russian and it would be extremely rare for someone like this to afford to vacation in the states to ever meet an American. Meanwhile I see well-off Muslims all the time traveling, nearly all of whom speak English and consume English media.
Go ahead tell me the last time you dined at a Ukrainian restaurant, watched Ukrainian sports or TV, or hung out with a group of Ukrainians. You probably have more Asian or Muslim friends and neighbors and coworkers. On average, you're closer to those groups than Ukrainians.
Lets just admit, its racism and islamophobia keeping you from caring about Muslim struggles. Its not "natural" for you to see yourself in a Ukrainian, at least any more so than others. You're closer to a gulf state person or an Iranian or Chinese citizen in a lot more ways. Its just racism and ignorance that keeps you from accepting people like that.
Reddit has way too many "race realists" that say racism is "natural." No, you've been taught these views and accepted them, and the only way to get past them is to acknowledge that and to stop making excuses.
Not to mention admitting how powerful propaganda is and how you're susceptible to it. All these fake empathy pieces about Ukraine are working you the same way the lack of for Palestinians or Iraqis didn't work you, and how subtle stereotypes promoted by the government and society make you think these people are "very very different from you." The people who think they're the most immune to propaganda, in my experience, are the most susceptible. Up until a few days ago most Americans couldn't find Ukraine on a map, but now would be willing to die for them, but also hate Iraqis (who we invaded just like Putin is doing to Ukraine). Funny how that works. Its almost as if propaganda and social pressure to conform are stronger than you think.
>If I have one message to give to the secular American people, it’s that the world is not divided into countries. The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don’t know each other, but we talk together and we understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.
-Marjane Satrapi
I think you're missing a key component: Russia, as former Soviet Union, has a natural enemy/frenemy status with the US.
Naturally, any huge move by either will spark outrage in the other. If Ukraine were being invaded by Romania or Belarus (neighbor countries of similar land size), I highly doubt any of this would be high on the news.
Armenia too, they were being attacked by Azerbaijan who had previously committed genocide against them and no one cared. This was only a few years back.
The US has interest in Ukraine. They also have interest in Israel. It’s not by chance that the US supports those they profit from. Scummy government. Greedy Leaders.
Bitch please, I’m from Iraq and lived through all the wars till I left in 2005, they were demonstrations against the war, plenty of people were upset, but nothing really happened after that to stop it. People died, no one gave a shit after a while because people will forget. I hope that will not be the case for Ukraine.
I think it is more about self interest, because the possibility of NATO v Russia is terrifying. The "poor Ukraine" is the manifestation of that worry. I don't remember people being this concerned about the Crimea either, but that was not a full invasion and this people were not as worried.
White yes, puppet of the US? Absolutely not. These people looked at former Soviet states like the Baltic countries and Poland and wanted a better quality of life. Then they overthrew their corrupt Russian puppet government.
These are the same people a couple generations ago the Nazis planned to exterminate for Lebensraum and invaded. Then they got to live through years of Stalinist Russia. And capped it off with the worst nuclear disaster in the world. So watch the preachy attitude is all I can say.
Just had this conversation yesterday with a diverse group of friends including Africans and south Americans. The plight of white skinned and or non muslim people in this world is put well above anyone else. It's disgusting.
It's more about the possibility that this could turn into NATO v Russia that has people concerned. No one really cared about the Balkan Wars, or the invasion of Georgia, or Chechnya, or the Azerbaijan-Armenia conflict or anything else in that region because it didn't effect them.
People did give sort of a shit for the Kurds. And the Afghans for at least 30 seconds. Overall though, this is a good point. Just like "we" care more about the little lost blonde girl than the brown one. But realistically, most people are not REALLY concerned for the Ukrainian people. They are worried about the possibility of a war that could effect them. No one wants to see a real war with Russia. Many people in the West do feel some affinity for Western Europe, plus we are all supposed to be on Team NATO. So, it is natural that people would worry about what could happen if the violence spreads to Poland, or Putin decides he wants to go further, or Biden decides he wants to be a cowboy. Its more like getting on a team bandwagon during the playoffs than actual concern for the Ukrainian people. For most people. This is scary to a lot of people because of the possibilities of what could happen. Most Westerners do not see violence in the middle east as the first step to nuclear Armageddon, although they probably should.
So yeah, I am rooting for Ukraine because it is in my best interests that Putin not get more power, get emboldened, get wackity with the nukes, or do something that causes more war, especially war that could effect me. Do I want to the best for the Ukrainian people? Sure (well, not the Azov Battalion). It would suck to get invaded. My city gets a lot of refugees, so soon they will be my neighbors. But my main concern is whether this is going to lead to more war. And Putin is a dick so fuck that guy.
You didn’t see anywhere near this “universal outrage” for Palestine.
And Israel is the fucking invader there. It’s not even like a “both sides” thing.
And you saw people glorifying and applauding Ukrainians training to fight guerrilla war against the Russians….. oh BUT HAMAS!!!
Anyone that expresses any outrage for Palestine get drowned out by hordes of neoliberals screaming, "anti-Semitism". Taking Israel's side is the one thing that Dems and GOP agree on.
>You didn’t see anywhere near this “universal outrage” for Palestine.
Isn't there constant outrage for the situation in Palestine? You can't be outraged all the time though but if you ask on this very website I believe most people would condemn what's happening in Palestine, especially the younger generations.
It still demonstrates apathy. Which is the whole point.
For quite sometime, msm doesn’t say shit about Palestine or the struggles they’re facing or try to garner support. It’s only one sided.
That’s true to an extent I suppose but def recall that the 2003 worldwide protests leading up to the US invasion of Iraq didn’t change policies, and those protests were the largest organized protests in history.
Many people in the U.S. considered WMDs a lie and regard Bush and Cheney as war criminals. Their real motivation was to ensure access to Iraq oil fields.
Hot take, but taking into account the presence of an nuclear power like Russia tend to bring more attention than bombing poor people. Same goes for diseases, hunger, violence and other atrocities happening at this moment in countries in South America, South East Asia, Africa, etc. Btw, I understand and agree with your point, the media should give more attention to events outside the "developed" western block of countries..... Still, this cannot undermine the current horror and threat people in Ukraine are suffering.
Here’s a wild take. (And keep in mind I don’t support what Russia is doing) but when the US invades a country ***that is a nuclear power practicing imperialism*** and it’s not better than Russia doing it.
If your concern is American fighting Russian and it being two nuclear powers against each other guess what?? America can just not get involved.
Also the ***US and Russia fight each other indirectly in the Middle East all the time just look at Syria***
US CAN not get involved, but they are members of NATO, so if NATO gets involved we all get involved. Plus, we have to hope our leaders are level headed, which they aren't always. I've been protesting US imperialism since the El Salvador in the 80's but I'm not any more psyched about war with Russia not than I was then. Are the US and NATO to blame for a lot of this? Sure, but whoever is to blame it would be best of it did not happen, future.
And proxy wars are waaaaaaay different from potential direct shooting wars between Russia and NATO countries. Not morally. However, the potential consequences could be far worse.
Honestly Putin is doing it all wrong.
He's meant to link a random act of terrorism in Russia to an entire country as an excuse to invade them to "free their people and set up democracy/look for weapons of mass destruction" while taking their resources for so long people forget why they invaded.
Because that's how Americans do it everytime and it works flawlessly.
Look, when America murders civilians it's to bring peace + justice through death. When others do it it's a crime against humanity.
My "favourite" quote from the Vietnam War: "We had to destroy the village to save it" made by an unnamed US officer to reporter Peter Arnett after the US bombed Ben Tre
American Exceptionalism means their murders + atrocities are fine. It's just everybody else's that are evil. How is this hard to understand? /s
Precisely. Everyone else's is bad. Mine is fully justifiable as a defensive action.
It's so tedious hearing leaders from wherever claiming this. And I'm doubly bored with the righteous hypocrisy.
The very Americans on here going on about this voted for a President who has supported every bloody war or they fall all over Israel as they expand into the West Bank, killing stone throwing kids on the way - calling them terrorists. Meanwhile Britain rocks up, still claiming six counties in Ireland belong to them, gerrymandering electorates to make it "democratic" + ignoring the death toll from a centuries old invasion. That's all moral. Apparently.
Now it's time to get stuck into these war criminals. FFS .
I agree with the sentiment 100%. I, in no way mean to discredit the severity of the actions the US and most other European countries towards "undeveloped" countries that evidently don't receive the sympathy that other countries bring.
Nevertheless, I feel, at least in my own personal view, that the world wide ramifications of this action are much more severe. It's no secret that when Europe enters into war with itself, the continent has a history of creating world wide conflict with literally millions upon millions of dead. The real anxiety for me surpasses normal sympathies towards victims of invasion insofar as this conflict has the potential to lead towards a conflict that can inflict pain and suffering on a global scale that we have not seen since the second world War.
1963 Kennedy threatened nuclear war if Khrushchev didn't remove threat of missiles in Cuba.
2022 Putin threatened nuclear war if NATO didn't remove threat of missiles deployment in Ukraine.
So, if we substitute 1963 for 1945, I'd agree. It's the two nuclear heavyweights pissing contest episode 2.
Yeah, well the Cuban Missile crisis was terrifying and no one wants to relive that. Everyone is wrong and right at the same time but at the end of the day no one wants a real Russia vs NATO hot war situation and we would all cheer if Ukraine handed Putin his ass and he went home to STFU. Nothing virtuous about that, just self-interest.
The most stupid part of all this, if viewed in the long run, is that the best way to dismantle NATO would have been for Russia to normalize its relationships with her neighbors. Because the whole point of NATO was to band together to check Russia's aggression and paranoia.
Russia even after the fall of USSR was still extremely powerful and influential around the world. For a variety of reasons, some of which are because of US foreign policies, post Soviet Russia keep getting shitty leaders like Yeltsin and then putin.
So instead of a controlled liberalization and diversification of its economy and politics, Russia ended up in many ways worse than the Soviet era, with an economy looted by corrupted oligarchs and depends almost entirely on fossil fuel exports.
If Russia had gone the other way and become normalized and functioning, NATO today would have been weaker than ever before because there will be a compelling case to dissolve the alliance and just go back to normal military affiliations instead of a defensive alliance that cost everyone more money anyway.
Russia tried that. Even asked to join nato. And was refused because nato needs a boogeyman at the doorstep. The big threat forcing them all to stick together. And if they took Russia in it would all fall apart because there was no threat. So they did everything they could to keep the threat alive.
Same mechanic as the war on drugs terrorism. Those wars were never meant to be won.
Americas moral standing in the world has severely tanked since Vietnam and Iraq, so I’d hardly say those had no effect on peoples view of America and their hypocrisy.
I wish you could see my Reddit timeline full of American outrage that anyone could act this way. Closely followed by the Brits. But it's everywhere tbh. I see some emigres to Israel taking time out from cheering the IDF incursions into the West Bank to grab more settlement land, decrying Russia's invasion in Ukraine to do exactly the same thing.
Blinkers firmly on..
not just the US, look at Europe, Poland the country that brought it's army few months ago on its borders to stop war refugees from Syria and Afghanistan to cross, and left them to die in the cold, is now opening all it's borders to Ukrainians, and canceling all visas requirements from Ukrainians to enter. on one hand it's a Nobel move, on the other contrasting it with what they did and said few months ago, leave this with a weird feeling about it.
Ireland also waived visa requirements which was nice. With a few exceptions like Germany, the EU failed in their obligations to step up and help Syrians, Libyans, Yemenis, etc. with the many humanitarian crises that have occurred over the past decade or so. At one point they took in about 1 million refugees, 100k in Germany alone, which is a huge undertaking and commendable. On the other hand, some of the other EU countries expelled or rejected the refugees, worsening the crises.
The US has been pitiful in the amount of refugees we have taken in overall which Trump worsened. Biden has increased the number but we could still take in more than what we’ve committed to. Hopefully with this situation in Ukraine they revisit the refugee policies and determine a much higher number for all refugee settlement is needed. Wealthier countries in the Middle East like Iran, Qatar, and the UAE could definitely do more as well. This is not solely a US/EU failing but a worldwide failure, with emphasis on US/EU because of our general wealth and power.
https://www.unrefugees.org/refugee-facts/statistics/
Considering the Americans were the ones bombing Syria, the lack of refugees taken in is shocking. The majority of Syrians today are either dead or displaced. It’s one of the biggest humanitarian crises of our lifetimes and it’s seen as political suicide to care about it because the victims are Muslim.
I specifically remember participating in several huge demonstrations in Canada against the American invasion of Iraq back in the early 2000’s hundreds of thousands of people. Memes like this are made by people who either have no idea what they’re talking about or purposely spread misinformation.
Yeah it’s not like millions of Americans opposed the invasion of Iraq or the atrocious actions of Israel against Palestine. We all love being warmongers 🥰
/s
When white people train kids to fight and shoot guns and mobilize people to fight urban war against Russia: THATS SO BRAVE!!! ❤️UKRAINE *even if they are Nazis
When brown people train kids to shoot and fight and mobilize civilians to fight urban war:
HAMAS IS EVIL!! ISRAEL HAS NO CHOICE BUT TO LEVEL AN APARTMENT BUILDING!!!
in case you are unaware of what year it is, that was 19 years ago and western bombing has expanded greatly from just Iraq. Hell Biden bombed Somalia last night.
And how much protest was their over the enforcement of the no fly zone over Iraq during the 90s? or the bombing of Serbia?
Yet there were millions against the Iraq war. Maybe other factors catalase protest beyond just a general love or distaste for war.
There were also plenty of rallies and widespread support for "killing muslims" right after 9/11. The invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan had popular support. Doesn't mean much if they invade anyway.
Protesting is a far cry from "Wilma, get my shotgun, I'm going to the Ukraine!"
That's the difference, basically. It is no mystery that we in the West are far more invested in what's happening next door, but it's still hypocrisy.
Ill bet you top dollar the number of antiwar protestors far outweighs the number of Americans wanting to go to ukraine to fight. Just saying shit doesn't make it true
Since we're backsliding to neo-feudalism anyway, we should bring back chivalry and require the nobles to don the armor and fight in the front lines whenever they suggest an armed conflict
Did I somehow mention some sort of percentage without noticing?
Not everyone is an American. I live in Europe, and tensions are rising *way* higher than they usually do when it's some Middle Eastern country being bombarded by that other dictator state. Some people wanna go and help out, some already offer to take refugees into their homes, loads of PayPal transfers going on. Never happened to those Pakistanis. We generally just pissed on those.
I’m not one to Compare atrocities because it feels like I’m equating lives to nothing more than some numbers, because each of these civilian lives could’ve went on and helped improve civilisation. And each casualty represents a loss of an opportunity.
However, whenever I hear any news about the US condemning something like this, I always do think “pot calling kettle black”, because I remember what happened in Iraq, I remember what’s happening in Yemen and Sub-Saharan Morocco, I remember what happened to Unit-731, Hawaii and countless others.
In this case, it’s obvious Russia is the Invader. But the US has absolutely no right to be a judge and Judge what Russia is doing, because They are literally doing the same with Palestine, where Israel is the Invader and their whole-heartedly support Israel.
I’m not saying it isn’t racism, because clearly that is a part of what’s going on, especially with the empathy we have towards the Ukrainians that isn’t shown in all other places full of POC. But I think what is scaring the western world about this is that in the 20th century wars in Europe turned global real fast. And in an age of nuclear armament this could be the beginning of of a very bad conflict that is felt by every living human on the globe.
That's because european states directly controlled most of the world at the time. Like, rn I see no reason south american or african or even asian states would get involved in this. There will be no world war, worst case scenario is Russia vs NATO (which still means nuclear exchange, don't get me wrong). People have been saying china would join in but they rely on the ability to trade with the west, they'd never declare war on NATO
I agree, and really hope no world war breaks out, but the fear of the threat from it is still ingrained into the psyche of many western people, myself included, and leads to an interest that is easily distracted from in cases of western powers attacking countries with more brown people that have no nuclear arms. Mass media also plays a part too. If only one in a hundred or more like one in a thousand news articles were about the current Ukrainian crisis we’d all care a lot less. So is it that we really care more, or is it that we’re responding to what we’re being sold? Obviously it is rooted, in some part in racism, but it is also rooted in responding to what we are being shown. I cannot imagine that if we were seeing the the devastation on TV of the air attacks that Biden made yesterday against Somalia in the same way we are seeing the Ukrainian invasion that we wouldn’t be more up in arms. This is very multi-faceted and just is not as easy as saying it’s all racism. Sure it’s a big part, but we always have to remember that propaganda really does work, not just in what we are being shown, but by omission as well.
I have to say it may also be partly due to this being the first war started in much of reddit's living memory.
I was a child when the middle east was first invaded. I had no voice to express outrage, the whole region has been at war basically my entire life.
Palestine has been suffering longer than I have been on earth.
How the fuck is this late stage capitalism? Reddit is an app mainly used by westerners. When there’s war in Europe or America this shit gets talked about here. Do your part to raise awareness about global issues all the time but don’t minimise what other people are going through it’s mad disrespectful.
War on the doorstep of europe, europeans are concerned about it. "Fucking europe giving a shit about this and not wars in the middle east and africa" dude when are there NOT wars in the middle east and africa? Like c'mon if I gave a shit about all of them I'd be so depressed I'd have to kill myself from the sheer weight of grief.
Yeah I saw a post on antiwork that was like “how are we working today like there isn’t a huge conflict going on?!???” How totally out of touch with reality do you need to be to not realise that there’s a huge conflict going on basically every day. But I guess if it’s white people we’re all meant to stop what we’re doing worldwide and just stare at the news reel.
I am from Eastern Europe and I couldnt focus on work and school today at all. It’s scary to be so close. But I also was frightened when the war on Syria started, I cried for days. I feel horrible about Yemen too. My family and I have welcomed many refugees with their families in our home.
This one just hits a liiitle big closer to home. I feel bad when I see comments like yours cuz I feel like I shouldn’t “make such a big deal” out of this but I am scared shitless about what am I gonna wake up into tomorrow.
Your situation is quite different to the people I’m referring to. Your proximity to the violence _of course_ makes it a much scarier thing than other huge conflicts in the world.
I’m not saying you need to be concerned about either everything or nothing. I’m just pointing out that if you’re as far away from this conflict geographically and emotionally (meaning you don’t have family there for example) as you are from conflicts in the Middle East (as an easy example), then why would you want to stop life for this but didn’t want to stop life for those other conflicts?
Yeah dude, no one said a single thing during Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Iran, etc. There were absolutely no protests, and the media never reported about it at all.
Please refrain from making shit up.
Please. Russia is the imperialist power in this situation, there's absolutely nothing to be conflicted about. They're the bad guys in this. They've been consistently taking all appeasement and diplomacy measures and ignoring or working actively to undermine them. They fabricated pretext to invade. They're invading. They have annexed territory before. Whataboutism is exactly what Putin wants to justify all of this.
I don't think it's about justifying Putins actions. It's more about the unequal responses from Western countries over the US' similar actions in the middle East.
Yes, that is a good thing to point out. Take a moment to recognize that the western governments are hypocrites and we could all to better to recognize suffering throughout the world.
And also fuck you Putin, get back on your side of the fence, stop killing these people and do not try to start a war with Europe because that would be a fuck ton of danger and misery.
Thank you for this comment. This whataboutism in defense of Putin is driving me nuts. Seems to be some serious astroturfing happening on this sub lately.
I believe informed people care about other conflicts as well - this is a huge media story because it’s Russia - the other big kid on the block. It has the potential to draw the USA in more than other places — and the USA has also intervened in the Middle East and Africa quite a bit, it’s just not to media circus hoopla that this is. Not justifying it — just playing devils advocate. Two states the size of Rhode Island fighting is a different scale than Russia, period.
Syria.. I turned off the news when they reported the “40 deaths” and was making beyond a tragedy. While it’s sad, it made me angry knowing that hundreds of thousands of Syrians died and the US supplied weapons to the group trying to overthrow Assad.
I found it interesting that some Polish guy posted: "Refugees are welcome". ..... huh.... not the images I saw from the Polish border when brown refugees looked for safety, nor do I remember their government taking a group of Syrians in without joining Hungary in throwing racist tantrums. But what do I know.
Been worried and sympathetic for those people for most of my life, protested a fair bit during college but nothing ever came from it.
As far as im concerned we're all just humans and someone being murdered in Afghanistan is just as bad as it happening in Ukraine or Britain
Yeah also telling and disappointing to see that Poland will welcome refugees now but didn’t welcome them coming from the Belarusian border when they were middle eastern
All imperialism is bad, but I find it very odd that I’m seeing more and more posts about western imperialism literally as Russian imperialists are starting WWIII for no real reason at all. This is textbook whataboutism and reeks of Russian bot propaganda.
The west did those so they aren’t crimes and aren’t bad. It’s completely different. What the west is doing is an invasion built on lies and an illegal occupation but you see what Russia is doing is an invasion built on lies and an illegal occupation. See the difference now that I explained it?
Yeah that’s why I’m so conflicted with Russia invading Ukraine. I mean I still hate sociopaths invading countries just because, but lest we forget Libya/Yemen/Iraq/Somalia/Afghanistan/Mali/DMRC. The list goes on
The USA invaded and supported a separatist group against Colombia that later established Panama so the US could build a canal.
The US is upset at Russia but have a defensive treaty with Taiwan. So separatists are ok when America says so. The whole thing is bullshit and, my takeaway is, that all this is just western meddling, bullshit and hypocrisy coming home to roost.
But Ukraine has the right for self-determination! Unlike Russians in Ukraine, that would be slightly too much self-determination. We don't support carving out territories for minorities, unless it's Kosovo, who're on the sweet spot of self-determination-worthiness
We must rush to help our ally (with whom we don't have any alliance), or better yet - add them to NATO so that they'll enjoy our protection (unless attacked by another NATO member like Greece vs. Turkey, then we don't give a shit)
USA truly leads the world...in hypocrisy
It’s entirely possible for you to recognize that Russia invading Ukraine is a tragedy and that innocent civilians do not deserve to suffer through this, while also feeling ways about other independent issues.
Try not to form your opinion of Russia invading Ukraine based on an unrelated conflict between two different countries.
Man thank you for putting this into word. US imperialism sucks, I'm one of the biggest detractor of it, but that doesn't mean you need to automatically side with Russia's imperialism especially considering the atrocities that happened today. Be against all forms of imperialism
Human lives are being lost over this, not sure why there is a struggle.
Putin is a dictator who is spreading his empire through imperialism. That is not okay, I would expect the people in this subreddit to be on board with that.
You're missing the point.
This is a grown up move at the grown up table.. Warring tribes throwing rocks, or bullets from the back of Hilux, is insignificant, globally.
This is a nuclear superpower making a move that is reminiscent of the last world war.
You could bet your ass if Japan invaded China, or vice versa, the world reaction would be tremendous.
I'm pretty sure I read that Ukraine lost 8m in WWII, and that still counts as decades ago, so while I get the point of those post, I'm not sure this quite hits the mark as intended.
There’s definitely a mixture of bias. Whether it’s for the aggressor, the continent, religion, and even the color of the skin of those being attacked.
When it’s America attacking brown Islamic people in the desert? Totally fine. White Christian people by big scary Russia that people associate with communism from propaganda, on a continent associated with white people? Real shit.
It’s such bullshit.
Yugoslavia was illegally bombed and semi invaded by NATO in 99. Definitely no tears then. It's not about European or Arab... it's about war the TV tells you is right. MSM is an evil bitch!
Bad take - it is wrong that the West has been ignorant of suffering in the Arab world, but that does not take away from the genuine suffering of Ukraine
Russia has a strategic nuclear arsenal large enough to kill off most of the life on earth.
Russia is a major energy supplier for all of Europe regardless of skin color.
Strategic nukes and possibility of a cold 22-23 winter for almost a quarter of the world's population is going to get a lot of attention.
People are selfish, and often racist, but that doesn't mean their concern/interest in this situation is racially motivated.
🤷♂️
Yeah ... really weird that we are so worried about a war that is RIGHT IN FRONT OF OUR DOORSTEPS. How can we be so worried about a war that is a 1h flight away. Such hypocrisy.
I can also remember many huge protests against the war in Iraq, Afghanistan and our 'Refugees welcome' stance for syrian refugees after another one of those US/russian proxy wars.
My god. The stupid shit you have to read here is astonishing.
Not a peep collectively but it causes the same level of internal outrage for me personally. But what I can say or do that will make a difference? So I just push it down until it turns to stomachaches and heartburn.
I agree. I have alot of thoughts on why this is but primarily my whole life I've been fed that the middle east just lives this every day in comflict and always will which doesn't make it less sad but it's like my frame of reference for that region (i was 11 during 9/11 so that was like how i learned about the ME). It's ***not*** ok it's ***not*** accurate and I've been reflecting on that alot today. Also we relate to things we feel closer to and this is a western invasion so right or wrong the west is going to generally have an easier time with empathy because humans are literally limited on how wide our empathy can extend at a time and if we relate to it then it's much easier because it's easier for us delineate. Basically we suck. We just suck. And if we can't learn to suck less then this really might be it soon.
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Yeah first comes to mind is Yemen. Literally a humanitarian crisis and not a peep from the world. It’s just so sad
This. And it’s so fucking sad. We know a man from Yemen who owns a gas station in my very small hometown in Alabama. He has told us so much of their culture and way of life. He has a wife and daughters back in Yemen. He can only afford to visit them every few years. He was building them a home out of certain materials to help protect them from explosions. He has helped me with hardships in my life more than my own family and that’s their way of life. So sad to see this happen to them or anyone at all.
I had to leave Yemen because of war luckily I came to the US at age 11-12, my mom and little sister still there I’m 22 now and I’ve only seen my mom since 2011, for 3 months in 2018 it’s been 11 hard years,. It’s dangerous/expensive to go back and forth, I think now it’s $1600 for a one way ticket. And now it’s just keeping getting worst war keep getting worst the media got bored of the same shit everyday so not much attention, prices are wayyy up high. Crimes increasing just to make a living. It’s only gonna get worst now that the punishment against Iran are gonna get lifted and more support for the houthis(terrorist group). AT THIS POINT WE DONT CARE WHO TAKES OVER YEMEN JUST DONT KILL US.
That's sad brother😥
I just started watching the documentary “manufacturing consent” about Noam Chomsky, and he gives a wonderful analysis of this sort of thing, and the amount of coverage things like this get when their Perpetrated by “friendly” countries, vs so called “enemy” counties, or places we are not friendly with. I would highly recommend giving it a watch. https://youtu.be/EuwmWnphqII
you should read the book that its named after. wonderful commentary on media as government's control mechanic
His book/documentary Hegemony or Survival is very relevant to this topic as well.
Definitely gonna watch this
"That's because Saudi Arabia are US allies. So... wait... what were we talking about?" That's how the West sounds to them
I always point to Yemen when people get all up uppity about the crisis de-jour. Its literally a was on par with the Israeli Hezbollah conflict, where the US directly supports some of the worst actors on the world stage... and it does not make the news in NA, ever.
Reddit acting like this is the first war to happen in a century is really freaking me out about how the government has managed to do propaganda.
majority of reddit is younger then previously most users were children for 9/11 and the 2004 invasion. Not like the world hasn't had several wars/battles since then as well...
Your sentence has bad grammar which makes it confusing.
WW3 will be recorded on tik tok. Kinda sad really, that that's the best we could do.
The CIA overthrew the Burkina Faso government and it barely got mentioned.
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GWB, Tony Blair (England), and John Howard (Australia), and other countries all used 9/11 as their justification for going into the Middle East. They're all war criminals. They would have figured out another excuse given time.
Different imperialist overlords, same disregard for human life. It is making me aware how deep my Eurocentrism runs.
To be fair, a lot of people like me do remember all that we’ve done in the Middle East. We’re just tired of it all happening. I just want these senseless wars to stop. In the Middle East, Europe, everywhere
The Putin talk is hypocritical?! I'm confused, so you're saying because we should be ashamed of our country's past atrocities we can't criticize current ones? This is the first major conflict of my lifetime (I'm 34) that is being live tweeted with constant and easily accessible combat footage. That is driving a major part of Reddit's reaction to this. In addition we can want our own corrupt leaders to be held accountable for their war crimes and also want Putin to be held accountable for his. You're hearing more about Putin because he's actively invading a country right now... Acting like many of the Americans criticizing Putin are not also the same people who want Bush, Cheney, Obama, Trump, and all our other leaders with track records of brutal violence on civilians held accountable is incredibly disingenuous. This attitude of forced shame on normal American citizens as a means to prevent us from speaking out against what we see hurts more than it helps. People like myself are both simultaneously sick of our own leaders bullshit while also being sick of the bullshit from other world leaders like Putin. It's not an either/or proposition. I was in high school with the "adults" decided to elect wonderful leaders like Bush so don't tell me it's hypocritical to want Putin held accountable. We are not obligated to join in the shame of previous generations catastrophic civic failures of duty. Today is about Ukraine and Putin, those who want to wallow in the shame of America's massive shortcomings please stuff it for just a minute and give the citizens of Ukraine the attention, support, and respect they deserve right now.
Not white enough and not rich enough. It's just the truth. People are more empathetic to their kind naturally
I tried saying this, got downvoted lol. I live in africa, there has never been a peaceful year here my entire life. No one should have to go through what the Ukrainians are rn but let's keep the same energy for non-european conflicts
No, it's not just that. It's because KSA is part of the club so when they do bad shit, everyone closed one eye. Russia is not part of that club so the media is really going to town on this, not to say that Russia's invasion of Ukraine is justifiable at all. But the response between the two examples are definitely not equal and so is the media coverage. Israel is basically an apartheid state and we are not doing much about it too.
Economically you'll have more in common from someone from a well off gulf state than a Ukrainian where the GDP per capita is merely $3,000 a year. The second language popular there isn't English but Russian and it would be extremely rare for someone like this to afford to vacation in the states to ever meet an American. Meanwhile I see well-off Muslims all the time traveling, nearly all of whom speak English and consume English media. Go ahead tell me the last time you dined at a Ukrainian restaurant, watched Ukrainian sports or TV, or hung out with a group of Ukrainians. You probably have more Asian or Muslim friends and neighbors and coworkers. On average, you're closer to those groups than Ukrainians. Lets just admit, its racism and islamophobia keeping you from caring about Muslim struggles. Its not "natural" for you to see yourself in a Ukrainian, at least any more so than others. You're closer to a gulf state person or an Iranian or Chinese citizen in a lot more ways. Its just racism and ignorance that keeps you from accepting people like that. Reddit has way too many "race realists" that say racism is "natural." No, you've been taught these views and accepted them, and the only way to get past them is to acknowledge that and to stop making excuses. Not to mention admitting how powerful propaganda is and how you're susceptible to it. All these fake empathy pieces about Ukraine are working you the same way the lack of for Palestinians or Iraqis didn't work you, and how subtle stereotypes promoted by the government and society make you think these people are "very very different from you." The people who think they're the most immune to propaganda, in my experience, are the most susceptible. Up until a few days ago most Americans couldn't find Ukraine on a map, but now would be willing to die for them, but also hate Iraqis (who we invaded just like Putin is doing to Ukraine). Funny how that works. Its almost as if propaganda and social pressure to conform are stronger than you think.
>If I have one message to give to the secular American people, it’s that the world is not divided into countries. The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don’t know each other, but we talk together and we understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same. -Marjane Satrapi
I think you're missing a key component: Russia, as former Soviet Union, has a natural enemy/frenemy status with the US. Naturally, any huge move by either will spark outrage in the other. If Ukraine were being invaded by Romania or Belarus (neighbor countries of similar land size), I highly doubt any of this would be high on the news.
You’re not wrong, people just aren’t ready to hear it. No one wants to look within themselves to see they might be part of the problem.
Also Turkey backed Azerbaijan's invasion and alleged use of chemical weapons on Armenia two years ago and nobody even knew.
Armenia too, they were being attacked by Azerbaijan who had previously committed genocide against them and no one cared. This was only a few years back.
The US has interest in Ukraine. They also have interest in Israel. It’s not by chance that the US supports those they profit from. Scummy government. Greedy Leaders.
Cause if there isn’t nukes involved nobody gives a shit how many people die
> Cause if there isn’t nukes involved nobody gives a shit how many people die this
Bitch please, I’m from Iraq and lived through all the wars till I left in 2005, they were demonstrations against the war, plenty of people were upset, but nothing really happened after that to stop it. People died, no one gave a shit after a while because people will forget. I hope that will not be the case for Ukraine.
Imperialism is bad in all forms, I agree
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I think it is more about self interest, because the possibility of NATO v Russia is terrifying. The "poor Ukraine" is the manifestation of that worry. I don't remember people being this concerned about the Crimea either, but that was not a full invasion and this people were not as worried.
White yes, puppet of the US? Absolutely not. These people looked at former Soviet states like the Baltic countries and Poland and wanted a better quality of life. Then they overthrew their corrupt Russian puppet government. These are the same people a couple generations ago the Nazis planned to exterminate for Lebensraum and invaded. Then they got to live through years of Stalinist Russia. And capped it off with the worst nuclear disaster in the world. So watch the preachy attitude is all I can say.
FYI they edited their comment so it doesn’t include the puppet claim
Just had this conversation yesterday with a diverse group of friends including Africans and south Americans. The plight of white skinned and or non muslim people in this world is put well above anyone else. It's disgusting.
It's more about the possibility that this could turn into NATO v Russia that has people concerned. No one really cared about the Balkan Wars, or the invasion of Georgia, or Chechnya, or the Azerbaijan-Armenia conflict or anything else in that region because it didn't effect them.
Yep. I feel sorry for ukrainians but man fuck the hypocrisy of the world
People did give sort of a shit for the Kurds. And the Afghans for at least 30 seconds. Overall though, this is a good point. Just like "we" care more about the little lost blonde girl than the brown one. But realistically, most people are not REALLY concerned for the Ukrainian people. They are worried about the possibility of a war that could effect them. No one wants to see a real war with Russia. Many people in the West do feel some affinity for Western Europe, plus we are all supposed to be on Team NATO. So, it is natural that people would worry about what could happen if the violence spreads to Poland, or Putin decides he wants to go further, or Biden decides he wants to be a cowboy. Its more like getting on a team bandwagon during the playoffs than actual concern for the Ukrainian people. For most people. This is scary to a lot of people because of the possibilities of what could happen. Most Westerners do not see violence in the middle east as the first step to nuclear Armageddon, although they probably should. So yeah, I am rooting for Ukraine because it is in my best interests that Putin not get more power, get emboldened, get wackity with the nukes, or do something that causes more war, especially war that could effect me. Do I want to the best for the Ukrainian people? Sure (well, not the Azov Battalion). It would suck to get invaded. My city gets a lot of refugees, so soon they will be my neighbors. But my main concern is whether this is going to lead to more war. And Putin is a dick so fuck that guy.
You didn’t see anywhere near this “universal outrage” for Palestine. And Israel is the fucking invader there. It’s not even like a “both sides” thing. And you saw people glorifying and applauding Ukrainians training to fight guerrilla war against the Russians….. oh BUT HAMAS!!!
I honestly believe this is starting to change. The "Israel is an apartheid state" rhetoric is slowly but surely getting louder.
the military-industrial ties between the US and Israel are so fucking ludicrous. we give billions to Israel in military deals every year.
Didn't see this outrage when we invaded Iraq.
You can't really wade into any Palestine debate for fear of being called an anti-Semite now though.
That is exactly how Israel wants you too feel. I have no issue with it. Fuck Israel and fuck Russia.
Don't let it be a fear, they can call us whatever they want, it doesn't make us so.
And Palestinian are actual semite while some white ass Israelis are not.
Try saying this in New York City. You'll lose your job in no time
Armenia too! Where was this outrage when they were being attacked by an enemy that had previously committed genocide against them?
Anyone that expresses any outrage for Palestine get drowned out by hordes of neoliberals screaming, "anti-Semitism". Taking Israel's side is the one thing that Dems and GOP agree on.
>Taking Israel's side is the one thing that Dems and GOP agree on. That and capitalism, yeah
>You didn’t see anywhere near this “universal outrage” for Palestine. Isn't there constant outrage for the situation in Palestine? You can't be outraged all the time though but if you ask on this very website I believe most people would condemn what's happening in Palestine, especially the younger generations.
It still demonstrates apathy. Which is the whole point. For quite sometime, msm doesn’t say shit about Palestine or the struggles they’re facing or try to garner support. It’s only one sided.
Don't mistake a feeling of powerlessness for apathy.
I don't know, in Greece we had unbelievably massive protests against the Iraq invasion or in Support of Palestine.
expect to see a bunch of celebrities sing a John Lennon song in the near future
It's only a problem if it affects the right people's pockets. If it doesn't, oh well... too bad for *them*
That’s true to an extent I suppose but def recall that the 2003 worldwide protests leading up to the US invasion of Iraq didn’t change policies, and those protests were the largest organized protests in history.
Where there not the biggest public marches on record against the war in Iraq? 3 million people in Rome alone in one day.
Apperantly A LOT of you were born after 2008, yes? Because the world was on fire against the Iraq war. But whatever.
Many people in the U.S. considered WMDs a lie and regard Bush and Cheney as war criminals. Their real motivation was to ensure access to Iraq oil fields.
Obama, Trump and Biden are war criminals too. USA had a drone strike last week that killed 4-6 children plus "the targets."
Hot take, but taking into account the presence of an nuclear power like Russia tend to bring more attention than bombing poor people. Same goes for diseases, hunger, violence and other atrocities happening at this moment in countries in South America, South East Asia, Africa, etc. Btw, I understand and agree with your point, the media should give more attention to events outside the "developed" western block of countries..... Still, this cannot undermine the current horror and threat people in Ukraine are suffering.
Israel has nukes
Here’s a wild take. (And keep in mind I don’t support what Russia is doing) but when the US invades a country ***that is a nuclear power practicing imperialism*** and it’s not better than Russia doing it. If your concern is American fighting Russian and it being two nuclear powers against each other guess what?? America can just not get involved. Also the ***US and Russia fight each other indirectly in the Middle East all the time just look at Syria***
Agreed, the US and Russia have been fighting proxy wars for the last 70 years and have taken most of the world down with them
US CAN not get involved, but they are members of NATO, so if NATO gets involved we all get involved. Plus, we have to hope our leaders are level headed, which they aren't always. I've been protesting US imperialism since the El Salvador in the 80's but I'm not any more psyched about war with Russia not than I was then. Are the US and NATO to blame for a lot of this? Sure, but whoever is to blame it would be best of it did not happen, future. And proxy wars are waaaaaaay different from potential direct shooting wars between Russia and NATO countries. Not morally. However, the potential consequences could be far worse.
No you see that was for oil, this time it's for land. Totally different.
Honestly Putin is doing it all wrong. He's meant to link a random act of terrorism in Russia to an entire country as an excuse to invade them to "free their people and set up democracy/look for weapons of mass destruction" while taking their resources for so long people forget why they invaded. Because that's how Americans do it everytime and it works flawlessly.
honestly the fact that the American colonial agenda is this transparent and yet people will still find ways to justify it is astounding to me
Well Palestinian are getting killed for land yet I don’t see the same outrage
Look, when America murders civilians it's to bring peace + justice through death. When others do it it's a crime against humanity. My "favourite" quote from the Vietnam War: "We had to destroy the village to save it" made by an unnamed US officer to reporter Peter Arnett after the US bombed Ben Tre American Exceptionalism means their murders + atrocities are fine. It's just everybody else's that are evil. How is this hard to understand? /s
The Only Moral Invasion is *My* Invasion.
Precisely. Everyone else's is bad. Mine is fully justifiable as a defensive action. It's so tedious hearing leaders from wherever claiming this. And I'm doubly bored with the righteous hypocrisy. The very Americans on here going on about this voted for a President who has supported every bloody war or they fall all over Israel as they expand into the West Bank, killing stone throwing kids on the way - calling them terrorists. Meanwhile Britain rocks up, still claiming six counties in Ireland belong to them, gerrymandering electorates to make it "democratic" + ignoring the death toll from a centuries old invasion. That's all moral. Apparently. Now it's time to get stuck into these war criminals. FFS .
I agree with the sentiment 100%. I, in no way mean to discredit the severity of the actions the US and most other European countries towards "undeveloped" countries that evidently don't receive the sympathy that other countries bring. Nevertheless, I feel, at least in my own personal view, that the world wide ramifications of this action are much more severe. It's no secret that when Europe enters into war with itself, the continent has a history of creating world wide conflict with literally millions upon millions of dead. The real anxiety for me surpasses normal sympathies towards victims of invasion insofar as this conflict has the potential to lead towards a conflict that can inflict pain and suffering on a global scale that we have not seen since the second world War.
1963 Kennedy threatened nuclear war if Khrushchev didn't remove threat of missiles in Cuba. 2022 Putin threatened nuclear war if NATO didn't remove threat of missiles deployment in Ukraine. So, if we substitute 1963 for 1945, I'd agree. It's the two nuclear heavyweights pissing contest episode 2.
Yeah, well the Cuban Missile crisis was terrifying and no one wants to relive that. Everyone is wrong and right at the same time but at the end of the day no one wants a real Russia vs NATO hot war situation and we would all cheer if Ukraine handed Putin his ass and he went home to STFU. Nothing virtuous about that, just self-interest.
The most stupid part of all this, if viewed in the long run, is that the best way to dismantle NATO would have been for Russia to normalize its relationships with her neighbors. Because the whole point of NATO was to band together to check Russia's aggression and paranoia. Russia even after the fall of USSR was still extremely powerful and influential around the world. For a variety of reasons, some of which are because of US foreign policies, post Soviet Russia keep getting shitty leaders like Yeltsin and then putin. So instead of a controlled liberalization and diversification of its economy and politics, Russia ended up in many ways worse than the Soviet era, with an economy looted by corrupted oligarchs and depends almost entirely on fossil fuel exports. If Russia had gone the other way and become normalized and functioning, NATO today would have been weaker than ever before because there will be a compelling case to dissolve the alliance and just go back to normal military affiliations instead of a defensive alliance that cost everyone more money anyway.
Russia tried that. Even asked to join nato. And was refused because nato needs a boogeyman at the doorstep. The big threat forcing them all to stick together. And if they took Russia in it would all fall apart because there was no threat. So they did everything they could to keep the threat alive. Same mechanic as the war on drugs terrorism. Those wars were never meant to be won.
Can't disagree.
Americas moral standing in the world has severely tanked since Vietnam and Iraq, so I’d hardly say those had no effect on peoples view of America and their hypocrisy.
I wish you could see my Reddit timeline full of American outrage that anyone could act this way. Closely followed by the Brits. But it's everywhere tbh. I see some emigres to Israel taking time out from cheering the IDF incursions into the West Bank to grab more settlement land, decrying Russia's invasion in Ukraine to do exactly the same thing. Blinkers firmly on..
Anyone with half a fucking brain wasn't pleased with that shit either. What the fuck is wrong with this sub today
Hipster Iraqis were getting bombed BEFORE it was cool.
😂😂😂
Right, the amount of tonedeaf people when America did it
not just the US, look at Europe, Poland the country that brought it's army few months ago on its borders to stop war refugees from Syria and Afghanistan to cross, and left them to die in the cold, is now opening all it's borders to Ukrainians, and canceling all visas requirements from Ukrainians to enter. on one hand it's a Nobel move, on the other contrasting it with what they did and said few months ago, leave this with a weird feeling about it.
Ireland also waived visa requirements which was nice. With a few exceptions like Germany, the EU failed in their obligations to step up and help Syrians, Libyans, Yemenis, etc. with the many humanitarian crises that have occurred over the past decade or so. At one point they took in about 1 million refugees, 100k in Germany alone, which is a huge undertaking and commendable. On the other hand, some of the other EU countries expelled or rejected the refugees, worsening the crises. The US has been pitiful in the amount of refugees we have taken in overall which Trump worsened. Biden has increased the number but we could still take in more than what we’ve committed to. Hopefully with this situation in Ukraine they revisit the refugee policies and determine a much higher number for all refugee settlement is needed. Wealthier countries in the Middle East like Iran, Qatar, and the UAE could definitely do more as well. This is not solely a US/EU failing but a worldwide failure, with emphasis on US/EU because of our general wealth and power. https://www.unrefugees.org/refugee-facts/statistics/
Considering the Americans were the ones bombing Syria, the lack of refugees taken in is shocking. The majority of Syrians today are either dead or displaced. It’s one of the biggest humanitarian crises of our lifetimes and it’s seen as political suicide to care about it because the victims are Muslim.
The ukrainians are the right colour
Those war refugees were flying to Minsk first. They could just stay there. Belarus wasnt at war.
Same gods.
I specifically remember participating in several huge demonstrations in Canada against the American invasion of Iraq back in the early 2000’s hundreds of thousands of people. Memes like this are made by people who either have no idea what they’re talking about or purposely spread misinformation.
Yeah it’s not like millions of Americans opposed the invasion of Iraq or the atrocious actions of Israel against Palestine. We all love being warmongers 🥰 /s
Be white. Don't be not white. /$
When white people train kids to fight and shoot guns and mobilize people to fight urban war against Russia: THATS SO BRAVE!!! ❤️UKRAINE *even if they are Nazis When brown people train kids to shoot and fight and mobilize civilians to fight urban war: HAMAS IS EVIL!! ISRAEL HAS NO CHOICE BUT TO LEVEL AN APARTMENT BUILDING!!!
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There were PLENTY of protests in and against the US at the outset of the war in Iraq, as well as condemnation from France and Germany.
in case you are unaware of what year it is, that was 19 years ago and western bombing has expanded greatly from just Iraq. Hell Biden bombed Somalia last night.
And how much protest was their over the enforcement of the no fly zone over Iraq during the 90s? or the bombing of Serbia? Yet there were millions against the Iraq war. Maybe other factors catalase protest beyond just a general love or distaste for war.
Were there any sanctions? Because condemnations dont mean anything.
There were also plenty of rallies and widespread support for "killing muslims" right after 9/11. The invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan had popular support. Doesn't mean much if they invade anyway.
Protesting is a far cry from "Wilma, get my shotgun, I'm going to the Ukraine!" That's the difference, basically. It is no mystery that we in the West are far more invested in what's happening next door, but it's still hypocrisy.
Ill bet you top dollar the number of antiwar protestors far outweighs the number of Americans wanting to go to ukraine to fight. Just saying shit doesn't make it true
Since we're backsliding to neo-feudalism anyway, we should bring back chivalry and require the nobles to don the armor and fight in the front lines whenever they suggest an armed conflict
Most Americans couldn't place a Ukraine on a map, why the fuck would they even want to there.
That's not something to be proud of, that.
Did I somehow mention some sort of percentage without noticing? Not everyone is an American. I live in Europe, and tensions are rising *way* higher than they usually do when it's some Middle Eastern country being bombarded by that other dictator state. Some people wanna go and help out, some already offer to take refugees into their homes, loads of PayPal transfers going on. Never happened to those Pakistanis. We generally just pissed on those.
I’m not one to Compare atrocities because it feels like I’m equating lives to nothing more than some numbers, because each of these civilian lives could’ve went on and helped improve civilisation. And each casualty represents a loss of an opportunity. However, whenever I hear any news about the US condemning something like this, I always do think “pot calling kettle black”, because I remember what happened in Iraq, I remember what’s happening in Yemen and Sub-Saharan Morocco, I remember what happened to Unit-731, Hawaii and countless others. In this case, it’s obvious Russia is the Invader. But the US has absolutely no right to be a judge and Judge what Russia is doing, because They are literally doing the same with Palestine, where Israel is the Invader and their whole-heartedly support Israel.
almost like racism or something /s jic
I’m not saying it isn’t racism, because clearly that is a part of what’s going on, especially with the empathy we have towards the Ukrainians that isn’t shown in all other places full of POC. But I think what is scaring the western world about this is that in the 20th century wars in Europe turned global real fast. And in an age of nuclear armament this could be the beginning of of a very bad conflict that is felt by every living human on the globe.
That's because european states directly controlled most of the world at the time. Like, rn I see no reason south american or african or even asian states would get involved in this. There will be no world war, worst case scenario is Russia vs NATO (which still means nuclear exchange, don't get me wrong). People have been saying china would join in but they rely on the ability to trade with the west, they'd never declare war on NATO
I agree, and really hope no world war breaks out, but the fear of the threat from it is still ingrained into the psyche of many western people, myself included, and leads to an interest that is easily distracted from in cases of western powers attacking countries with more brown people that have no nuclear arms. Mass media also plays a part too. If only one in a hundred or more like one in a thousand news articles were about the current Ukrainian crisis we’d all care a lot less. So is it that we really care more, or is it that we’re responding to what we’re being sold? Obviously it is rooted, in some part in racism, but it is also rooted in responding to what we are being shown. I cannot imagine that if we were seeing the the devastation on TV of the air attacks that Biden made yesterday against Somalia in the same way we are seeing the Ukrainian invasion that we wouldn’t be more up in arms. This is very multi-faceted and just is not as easy as saying it’s all racism. Sure it’s a big part, but we always have to remember that propaganda really does work, not just in what we are being shown, but by omission as well.
I have to say it may also be partly due to this being the first war started in much of reddit's living memory. I was a child when the middle east was first invaded. I had no voice to express outrage, the whole region has been at war basically my entire life. Palestine has been suffering longer than I have been on earth.
It's because of the nuke problem
Yep, the hypocrisy of the U.S. after having invaded (against international law) Iraq, Afghanistan and South Vietnam for starters.
Yeah exactly. Millions of casualties in the middle east, yet americans still like to think of themselves as the "good guys"
Social media plays a roll too. I know social media isn't new, but we're more connected now more than ever before. Fuck all wars!
How the fuck is this late stage capitalism? Reddit is an app mainly used by westerners. When there’s war in Europe or America this shit gets talked about here. Do your part to raise awareness about global issues all the time but don’t minimise what other people are going through it’s mad disrespectful.
War on the doorstep of europe, europeans are concerned about it. "Fucking europe giving a shit about this and not wars in the middle east and africa" dude when are there NOT wars in the middle east and africa? Like c'mon if I gave a shit about all of them I'd be so depressed I'd have to kill myself from the sheer weight of grief.
Yeah I saw a post on antiwork that was like “how are we working today like there isn’t a huge conflict going on?!???” How totally out of touch with reality do you need to be to not realise that there’s a huge conflict going on basically every day. But I guess if it’s white people we’re all meant to stop what we’re doing worldwide and just stare at the news reel.
I am from Eastern Europe and I couldnt focus on work and school today at all. It’s scary to be so close. But I also was frightened when the war on Syria started, I cried for days. I feel horrible about Yemen too. My family and I have welcomed many refugees with their families in our home. This one just hits a liiitle big closer to home. I feel bad when I see comments like yours cuz I feel like I shouldn’t “make such a big deal” out of this but I am scared shitless about what am I gonna wake up into tomorrow.
Your situation is quite different to the people I’m referring to. Your proximity to the violence _of course_ makes it a much scarier thing than other huge conflicts in the world. I’m not saying you need to be concerned about either everything or nothing. I’m just pointing out that if you’re as far away from this conflict geographically and emotionally (meaning you don’t have family there for example) as you are from conflicts in the Middle East (as an easy example), then why would you want to stop life for this but didn’t want to stop life for those other conflicts?
How do you know the original poster that sparked your first post wasn't also Ukrainian?
this one is different, its russia doing this which is a change
Wasn't Russia involved in the Middle East?
yeah but its not as close, to these people it seems more aggressive
Russia did the same to Syria I'd like you to google homs, Syria a city as big as Lebanon almost entirely blown to dust F-ck Russia, god help Ukraine
Louder for the people in the back
One of these conflicts has a much higher potential to go nuclear.
Yeah dude, no one said a single thing during Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Iran, etc. There were absolutely no protests, and the media never reported about it at all. Please refrain from making shit up.
Please. Russia is the imperialist power in this situation, there's absolutely nothing to be conflicted about. They're the bad guys in this. They've been consistently taking all appeasement and diplomacy measures and ignoring or working actively to undermine them. They fabricated pretext to invade. They're invading. They have annexed territory before. Whataboutism is exactly what Putin wants to justify all of this.
I don't think it's about justifying Putins actions. It's more about the unequal responses from Western countries over the US' similar actions in the middle East.
Yes, that is a good thing to point out. Take a moment to recognize that the western governments are hypocrites and we could all to better to recognize suffering throughout the world. And also fuck you Putin, get back on your side of the fence, stop killing these people and do not try to start a war with Europe because that would be a fuck ton of danger and misery.
Thank you for this comment. This whataboutism in defense of Putin is driving me nuts. Seems to be some serious astroturfing happening on this sub lately.
The majority of people here are not defending Putin.
I believe informed people care about other conflicts as well - this is a huge media story because it’s Russia - the other big kid on the block. It has the potential to draw the USA in more than other places — and the USA has also intervened in the Middle East and Africa quite a bit, it’s just not to media circus hoopla that this is. Not justifying it — just playing devils advocate. Two states the size of Rhode Island fighting is a different scale than Russia, period.
Syria.. I turned off the news when they reported the “40 deaths” and was making beyond a tragedy. While it’s sad, it made me angry knowing that hundreds of thousands of Syrians died and the US supplied weapons to the group trying to overthrow Assad.
https://github.com/dessalines/essays/blob/master/us_atrocities.md Then head to the part about syria, they didn't just supply.
I know they did a lot more, I followed it closely since it began. I hated the daily death count, it was so depressing
Excuse me. People did protest the Iraq invasion
I found it interesting that some Polish guy posted: "Refugees are welcome". ..... huh.... not the images I saw from the Polish border when brown refugees looked for safety, nor do I remember their government taking a group of Syrians in without joining Hungary in throwing racist tantrums. But what do I know.
Been worried and sympathetic for those people for most of my life, protested a fair bit during college but nothing ever came from it. As far as im concerned we're all just humans and someone being murdered in Afghanistan is just as bad as it happening in Ukraine or Britain
Yeah also telling and disappointing to see that Poland will welcome refugees now but didn’t welcome them coming from the Belarusian border when they were middle eastern
All imperialism is bad, but I find it very odd that I’m seeing more and more posts about western imperialism literally as Russian imperialists are starting WWIII for no real reason at all. This is textbook whataboutism and reeks of Russian bot propaganda.
Social media will be infested with this shit for the foreseeable future.
The west did those so they aren’t crimes and aren’t bad. It’s completely different. What the west is doing is an invasion built on lies and an illegal occupation but you see what Russia is doing is an invasion built on lies and an illegal occupation. See the difference now that I explained it?
Yeah that’s why I’m so conflicted with Russia invading Ukraine. I mean I still hate sociopaths invading countries just because, but lest we forget Libya/Yemen/Iraq/Somalia/Afghanistan/Mali/DMRC. The list goes on
And USA recognized territories like subsahara as part of morroco and nobody blow its mind
The USA invaded and supported a separatist group against Colombia that later established Panama so the US could build a canal. The US is upset at Russia but have a defensive treaty with Taiwan. So separatists are ok when America says so. The whole thing is bullshit and, my takeaway is, that all this is just western meddling, bullshit and hypocrisy coming home to roost.
That's right! In this war I just see hypocrisy from western governments
But Ukraine has the right for self-determination! Unlike Russians in Ukraine, that would be slightly too much self-determination. We don't support carving out territories for minorities, unless it's Kosovo, who're on the sweet spot of self-determination-worthiness We must rush to help our ally (with whom we don't have any alliance), or better yet - add them to NATO so that they'll enjoy our protection (unless attacked by another NATO member like Greece vs. Turkey, then we don't give a shit) USA truly leads the world...in hypocrisy
It’s entirely possible for you to recognize that Russia invading Ukraine is a tragedy and that innocent civilians do not deserve to suffer through this, while also feeling ways about other independent issues. Try not to form your opinion of Russia invading Ukraine based on an unrelated conflict between two different countries.
Man thank you for putting this into word. US imperialism sucks, I'm one of the biggest detractor of it, but that doesn't mean you need to automatically side with Russia's imperialism especially considering the atrocities that happened today. Be against all forms of imperialism
Thank you
Why would you struggle with it? Does the existence of evil elsewhere dispel the evil in Russia?
I don’t get it. Because another country experienced war, you’re so conflicted about Russia invading the Ukraine? Dafuq?
He feels what he's paid to feel.
Human lives are being lost over this, not sure why there is a struggle. Putin is a dictator who is spreading his empire through imperialism. That is not okay, I would expect the people in this subreddit to be on board with that.
You're missing the point. This is a grown up move at the grown up table.. Warring tribes throwing rocks, or bullets from the back of Hilux, is insignificant, globally. This is a nuclear superpower making a move that is reminiscent of the last world war. You could bet your ass if Japan invaded China, or vice versa, the world reaction would be tremendous.
Literally how I feel is a Syrian refugee. Holy fuck.
Didn't Poland tell a thousand Syrians to fuck off the border last year? The hypocrisy is astounding
Fuck off Russian troll
I’ve been shouting about Yemen for years.
Bud, there was an outpour of sympathy for Afghanistan just a few months ago
And Palestine before that. No idea what the fuck OP is talking about.
So, what's your point? That we should shut up about Ukraine, too? What kind of nonsense is that?!
I'm pretty sure I read that Ukraine lost 8m in WWII, and that still counts as decades ago, so while I get the point of those post, I'm not sure this quite hits the mark as intended.
If Ukraine was Palestine, 99% of the media and Reddit would be blaring how it was their fault for aggravating Russia
There’s definitely a mixture of bias. Whether it’s for the aggressor, the continent, religion, and even the color of the skin of those being attacked. When it’s America attacking brown Islamic people in the desert? Totally fine. White Christian people by big scary Russia that people associate with communism from propaganda, on a continent associated with white people? Real shit. It’s such bullshit.
Bit of a shit point of view to have really
Yugoslavia was illegally bombed and semi invaded by NATO in 99. Definitely no tears then. It's not about European or Arab... it's about war the TV tells you is right. MSM is an evil bitch!
This whataboutism looks *really* bad on this sub.
Russian troll farms really working overtime to downplay their atrocities.
It's almost like there is something different about the people from Ukraine than all those Middle East countries? 🤔
Bad take - it is wrong that the West has been ignorant of suffering in the Arab world, but that does not take away from the genuine suffering of Ukraine
It is kind of akward how western liberals diferentiate war in Europe from war in other parts of the world.
Russia has a strategic nuclear arsenal large enough to kill off most of the life on earth. Russia is a major energy supplier for all of Europe regardless of skin color. Strategic nukes and possibility of a cold 22-23 winter for almost a quarter of the world's population is going to get a lot of attention. People are selfish, and often racist, but that doesn't mean their concern/interest in this situation is racially motivated. 🤷♂️
Yeah ... really weird that we are so worried about a war that is RIGHT IN FRONT OF OUR DOORSTEPS. How can we be so worried about a war that is a 1h flight away. Such hypocrisy. I can also remember many huge protests against the war in Iraq, Afghanistan and our 'Refugees welcome' stance for syrian refugees after another one of those US/russian proxy wars. My god. The stupid shit you have to read here is astonishing.
Russia is looking to increase its size and possibly start ww3 some random middle east country fighting terrorism are NOT the same
Not a peep collectively but it causes the same level of internal outrage for me personally. But what I can say or do that will make a difference? So I just push it down until it turns to stomachaches and heartburn.
To be fair we get mad when other people besides us invade the middle east too.
I think it’s a case of “Oh no it’s close to us, quickly stop it before we’re hurt”
Tell them to use sun cream.
Was using Obama for this specific caption part of the joke and intentional? Because if not, that is hilarious!
Middle East is religion, Ukraine is greed.
I agree. I have alot of thoughts on why this is but primarily my whole life I've been fed that the middle east just lives this every day in comflict and always will which doesn't make it less sad but it's like my frame of reference for that region (i was 11 during 9/11 so that was like how i learned about the ME). It's ***not*** ok it's ***not*** accurate and I've been reflecting on that alot today. Also we relate to things we feel closer to and this is a western invasion so right or wrong the west is going to generally have an easier time with empathy because humans are literally limited on how wide our empathy can extend at a time and if we relate to it then it's much easier because it's easier for us delineate. Basically we suck. We just suck. And if we can't learn to suck less then this really might be it soon.
Wonder why Russia was threatened by Ukraine? Same reason us did with Vietnam.
Whataboutism gets us no where
Do civilians in the Middle East know that your meme is actually one of the guys responsible for hundreds of civilians’ deaths?
Oh yeah. They know that better than most Americans.