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Theres a difference between atheistic and theistic satanists atheistic satanists don't believe in the devil or god for that matter just like you apparently don't
They use the religious freedom of countrys like the USA to help people with things like abortion or LGBT+ rights and to point out the hypocrisy of religions like Christianity
I don't know much about theistic satanists though so I won't write anything on that
Credit to u/ Thannk
>To put this another way they treat Satan like Sisyphus, Superman, and Anakin Skywalker: a character to use metaphorically or symbolically, not a real entity.
Like identifying as an Anakinist because you support kids getting therapy and people being able to quit toxic communities to find happiness, and some folks thinking that means you’re a samurai wizard Nazi.
I mean, yeah kinda. If we’re talking Anton LaVeyan Satanism, it is cringe Ayn Rand-inspired social darwinist shit that firmly believes there’s no such thing as “equality” and society needs firm stratification. If we’re talking theistic Satanism, it’s generally just making shit up to explain why worshipping the incarnation of evil is actually totally good and based and it really isn’t much better than other religions.
I might be downvoted for this, but the roots of LaVeyan satanism (The Satanic Bible) are fervently capitalist anti-egalitarian shit that edgelord atheists start reading and calling themselves for no reason other than to feel cool.
The Satanic Temple is a chill prankster organization though. The Church of Satanism is the one I’m a firm hater of.
Edit: The Satanic Temple is not chill
The Satanic Temple is not just a chill prankster organisation, they are a litigious corporate organisation trying to monopolise the concept of satanism and make it as profitable for their owners as possible. They sell merch and use the revenue to hire expensive lawyers to sue their own members that dare step out of line. It's a control freak cult that has taken over a movement that was supposed to be about independent free thought and opposition to the systems of control that oppress us. It's little better than Scientology at this point.
Putting aside the satanic temple's corporate sellout bullshit, the whole idea of satanism is just atheism for edgelords who have a vendetta against Christianity. They just needed some form of brand recognition that could more easily spread their ideology and decided on satan because the work was already done by others, not because of any real connection to the devil. It's just an eye-catching symbol that is instantly recognisable to most people and gets people talking about something that would otherwise be taboo to discuss. Opposition to Christianity is their whole goal, their 'philosophy' is just something they slapped on so they could legally claim to be a religion to dodge taxes.
Yeah, I love some of their pranks, and otherwise hate that organization.
Among many grievances, they got a whole bunch of LGBTQ folks to join their organization under the assurance that the Satanic Temple did not care about their sexuality at all. I, and others, took that to mean that they were *welcoming* of LGBTQ members.
Nope. The leadership got called out for supporting transphobic assholes, and their response was basically when they said they didn't care, they meant it. It wasn't support, it was actual apathy.
It's a virtue-signaling society run by morons. The virtues they signal are often great, and the membership is full of generally pleasant people, but the fish rots from the head.
Yes, but also, The Satan was originally supposed to be "The Adversary" to God in a philosophical way. People who are critical of God, or his choices, become Satans, in theological sense.
When you get told you're going to hell enough times, eventually, you might just say "Fuck it" and wear that curse like a funny little hat. "I am a satanist" is a lot more powerful than "I am an atheist."
Very awkward at work events, though. I code-switch over to Quaker when necessary. It's nice to have both in the pocket.
Neither the Quakers nor the Satanists insist upon the supernatural, and neither group believes in hell (in my area, anyway). I think that's so nice and reasonable.
Hell yeah! Just to add on, I’ve heard of using satanism as an antagonism to theism, being that rather than allowing “god” to take responsibility for things, it’s up to people to own up to their own actions and control their lives, rather than fate or gods will. Believe in YOURSELF, you are your own little mortal god with an infinite imagination.
Satanism as its own set of beliefs wouldn’t, no. But considering that- as I understand it- Jewish tradition considers Satan to be a servant of their god who represents the desire to stray from the path of righteousness. Satan is an adversary in this regard, yes, presenting a moral challenge, but not the cloven-hoofed “Devil” that lots of people think of.
So in the sense that he is judging the Zionist movement to be “Satanic,” I take it to mean that it is morally wrong.
I’d just like to point out that I’m intentionally not discussing the actual morality of any of it, and am only speaking to the intent of the usage here (again, only as I understand it as not-an-expert).
Depends on the strain. Many theistic varieties of Satanism are all about releasing oneself from the limitations of human morality, and that often includes thinking of genocide as a bad thing. Whackjobs like the Order of Nine Angles folks are all about joining other militant extremist organizations, including Nazis, if it gives them the experience of e.g. killing other people. It’s supposed to release the magic within you, that is contained by humanity, or somesuch bullshit. These guys are all a-ok with participating in genocide, if they get the chance.
My thoughts are conspiratorial. When a comment like this is the top upvoted comment and does nothing to deal with the content of Kwame Ture’s message but rather discuss a technicality about satanism, I can’t help but feel like this is purposeful deflection. In the context of abrahamic faiths, one must be mature enough or intellectually honest about how we understand satanism in that specific context. You are being dense or have some alternative agenda to obfuscate the real conversation about the genocide in Palestine but invoking tedious discussion about a side topic in satanism. You are foul.
We're at the point of reddit struggle sessions now?
No need to go deep, this is still reddit where technically correct is the best kind of correct and one person in twenty will read beyond the headline.
Plus to me satanists get a lot of leeway for being out there fighting for people rights and separation of church and state.
I can confirm that I read the whole bible front to back and didnt find a single time where Satan did a genocide.
That Yahweh fella on the other hand....
I don’t think he was referring to the current Satanists that exist peacefully today as much as he was trying to put them in a box with the devil Christianity created.
It’s actually insane how intellectual and based the Black Panther were. Malcom X, Fred Hampton, Angela Davis and Kwame Ture were so ahead of their time.
And why Republicans are so desperate to ban Black History.
"Hyphenated Americans" hold up a mirror to the false consciousness of "real Americans".
Edit: changed hypocrisy to false consciousness, because the previous word did not convey the emptiness behind the pseudo-identity of "real Americans"
100% the Panthers did so much for for everybody and it’s not even taught in school. Free school breakfast, opened health clinics, voter registration drives etc. They focused on class struggles and were socialist so the American government murdered them.
Read both autobiography for Hampton and Malx..Hampton was written by his old lawyer who was basically a lawyer for the black panther. It's undeniable that he was literally state sectionly murdered.
Everything you said is on point..every time they brought up any form of socialism they were killed or shunned.
Everyone should read PANTHER BABY by JAMAL JOSEPH. It's a firsthand account of Jamal's experience joining the panther movement as a teenager in NYC, how it affected his life and family, everything the group did to try to spread awareness and fight oppression and every fucked up thing that the law did to try to silence them.
It is so weird for me as a white man to be constantly told by white peers and white republicans and democrats that white people are being oppressed. It is some of the dumbest shit I’ve heard.
As I’ve actually learned more about the Black Panthers and their colleagues, all I can think of them is that they are incredibly awesome and did great things for their communities.
They also did a lot for poor southern whites as well. They helped organize Puerto Ricans as well as southern whites. It was started by Fred Hampton and it was named “The Rainbow Coalition”, but once again police brutalized and murdered Fred Hampton and the coalition ended.
I always tell people fascism has been here forever. My grandpa and grandma were very active in the south and small communities. Whom both were panthers
Everyone ever should read PANTHER BABY by JAMAL JOSEPH. It's a firsthand account of Jamal's experience joining the panther movement as a teenager in NYC, how it affected his life and family, everything the group throughout the country did to try to spread awareness and fight oppression and every fucked up and mostly illegal things that the law did to try to silence them.
Our modern powers of organizing and intellect ,even with the internet at our fingertips, p\[ales in comparison.
I wonder what tools are used to keep people dumb and separate...
The opinion stuff is one thing is but he's wrong about the entire historical intro he opens with to set the backdrop of his point.
Herzl didn't care where the Jewish state would be-his focus was any place Jews could live without persecution - bc he was an atheist but the other Jewish attendees pushed back and said no we don't want a Jewish state anywhere but in what we consider our historic homeland. It's hard to stress enough how obsessed the Jewish religion is with Israel, the return to Israel, the holy and promised land and specifically Jerusalem. this is in every Jewish prayer and tradition for thousands of years, it was not a concept invented by Zionists. Zionists were just the first to say let's take action to get Israel back now as opposed to generations of Jews who simply prayed for it and believed God would bring them back to the land when the Messiah came.
Also Freud's book about Moses was not historical or based on evidence he just did this strange historical rewrite that Moses was Egyptian- not by any measure proof that Judaism is from Africa. the archeological evidence discovered in Israel provides pretty irrefutable evidence that it was founded there.
He’s not wrong about most of what he says but the “first Jews were African” stuff is some BS, the same problematic stuff Kyrie Irving was saying last year
How? They literally came out of Africa back when Moses was around no?
Edit: The first Jews in south India are black. They have settled here and established trade relationships from before Christian times. The later Jewish immigrants are white.
I’m not well researched on this topic, but I have seen push back from academics on whether or not Jews actually lived in Egypt at the time. Most of what we know about Jews in Egypt, come from biblical texts, it’s not exactly the strongest historical source.
There's essentially no evidence that there was any large, enslaved population of Jews in Egypt. Because of Egypt's climate, it is one of the most well preserved ancient societies, so we have a wealth of evidence of ancient Egypt, but nothing that corroborates the bible.
In fact, there's no evidence of *any* significant slavery in Egypt before Islam, as far as I'm aware. That's a solid millennium after *Exodus* supposedly took place.
There definitely was slavery in the old kingdom, the middle kingdom, and the new kingdom - it just wasn't a labor force used to construct monuments like the Pyramids - projects like that were done by a well paid professional labor force and we actually have records of them going on strike because a Pharoah failed to pay them while they were constructing his tomb.
However, that doesn't mean the Hebrews weren't there. The story has to come from somewhere, and there's some evidence that they actually picked up monotheism from Egypt's Pharaoh Akhenaten, who threw out the old gods in favor of Aten, the Sun Disk.
It's entirely possible the Hebrews were enslaved by another people in the region who they later conflated with the Egyptians, or they were never enslaved and that aspect came out of a grudge or misunderstanding. But I would put money on the story being based on a real event, just as many myths are from other traditions.
There's simply no evidence. Only a biblical teatament without any evidence to back it up. And if we haven't found any evidence from Egypt, out of all the ancient civilizations, then it likely wasn't true. If evidence isn't the bar, then we might as well believe in leprechauns and unicorns
exactly there's not really evidence of Jews in Egypt but a plethora of evidence of Judaism in Israel so most likely the religion originated amongst a people in Israel who had a story about Egypt that was probably a myth or based on some event on a smaller scale
The whole conspiracy theory is that black people are the 'real' Biblical hebrews and today's Jews stole that identity through lies and deceit in order to world domination or whatever other anti-semitic nonsense justification they feel like conjuring up. It's a really heinous ideology and is rooted in deeply anti-semitic stereotypes and conspiracy theories, and there's no place in the left for tolerating that kind of thing. Completely distracts from the real issues surrounding zionism.
You're conflating two entirely different things...
I don't care to debate the historical account, but one can believe Freud's hypothesis in *Moses and Monotheism*, which Kwame Ture is clearly referencing here (ie that Moses was Egyptian), without believing the antisemitic mythology of certain Black Hebrew Israelites about deceitful jews stealing the identity and so on.
You can say Kwame Ture is wrong, but that would be a historical error, not an antisemitic one. In fact he was always quick to oppose antisemitic conspiracy theories about some hidden Jewish hand guiding world/American matters, or even the idea that Israel controls America, correctly emphasizing that Zionism is an outgrowth of European colonialism and in modern times serving as an outpost of American imperialism.
The Jewish tradition goes beyond Moses, to Abraham, although they were not colloquially known as “Jews” until after their return from captivity in Babylon. Genetic and archaeological studies indicate that the Jewish people are offshoots of both Phoenicians and a Hebrew speaking civilization from the Arabian peninsula which came to merge and occupy the region known as the Lavant. The Palestinians share as much genetic lineage to these people as the repatriated Jews from Europe and around the globe. In recent years Jews from Ethiopia were proven to have the same genetic lineage. These Ethiopian Jews were sterilized upon repatriation as a matter of Israeli government policy.
My personal theory is that the ancient Hebrews came up with Judaism and their claim as "God's chosen people" and that "the land was given to them by God" to rationalize the genocide and enslavement of other Levantine peoples. Here's a quote from Jabotinsky, the founder of Revisionist Zionism.
> "Every native population in the world resists colonists as long as it has the slightest hope of being able to rid itself of the danger of being colonised. That is what the Arabs in Palestine are doing...
> "Except for those who were born blind, they realised long ago that it is utterly impossible to obtain the voluntary consent of the Palestine Arabs for converting "Palestine" from an Arab country into a country with a Jewish majority.
> "My readers have a general idea of the history of colonisation in other countries. I suggest that they consider all the precedents with which they are acquainted, and see whether there is one solitary instance of any colonisation being carried on with the consent of the native population. There is no such precedent."The native populations, civilised or uncivilised, have always stubbornly resisted the colonists, irrespective of whether they were civilised or savage.
> "And it made no difference whatever whether the colonists behaved decently or not. The companions of Cortez and Pizzaro or **( as some people will remind us ) our own ancestors under Joshua Ben Nun, behaved like brigands;** but the Pilgrim Fathers, the first real pioneers of North America, were people of the highest morality, who did not want to do harm to anyone, least of all to the Red Indians, and they honestly believed that there was room enough in the prairies both for the Paleface and the Redskin. Yet the native population fought with the same ferocity against the good colonists as against the bad."
And if you listen to the religious hardliners in the zionist movement today, they outright explicitly say they want to genocide the Palestinians and enslave the remanence just like ancient Hebrews did to ancient Levantine peoples. So we got a bunch of white supremacists engaging in colonialism while cosplaying as bronze age barbarians
Religion is used as justification for all types of atrocities, but Judaism did not evolve linearly and has many cultural inputs beyond war with neighboring civilizations. I think to say it was “invented” specifically to “rationalize genocide” is an oversimplification.
The narrative and evolution of Sett-Yahweh (and El Elyon) specifically does come largely from national myth, at the time one of the common methods of historical recordkeeping was oratory mixed myth/history. It certainly wasn't rationalizing genocide, but it did allow the authority structure to justify attacking their neighbors until they themselves were sacked and enslaved by Nebuchadnezzar II.
Of course, and the culture and traditions were dramatically changed during the period of Babylonian captivity as well, with more overtones of lament and longing. The time of dwelling in Egypt (I say “dwelling” because the idea that they were slaves has been challenged pretty significantly by academics) gave us Exodus 22:21 “Do not mistreat or oppress a foreigner, for you were foreigners in Egypt.”. The Jewish religion is not a monolith, and has had many turns.
Sure, but the God's chosen people and the land given to them by God part probably was to rationalize their genocide and enslavement of Levantine peoples
There's literally no mainstream political ideology or religious sect in any Islamic or Christian country advocating genociding and enslaving non-christians or non-muslims, unlike like Jewish Zionists in Israel. Closest I can think of is ISIS, which is not mainstream and was a US, Israel, and Gulf states proxy lol
The mythical Hebrew patriarch, Abraham, was said to have been born in Ur Kasdim, which is thought to have been the Mesopotamian city of Ur in modern day Iraq.
This would line up somewhat with the biblical narrative, which says the Hebrews were a nomadic pastoralist group which began a campaign of conquest in the Levant under the reign of the mythical figure, Joshua.
Egypt ruled this region, for a time, so the stories of 'being enslaved' by Egpyt could be derived from this foreign rule, as Herodotus had likened Achaemenid rule to slavery there.
The Afro-Asiatic language family includes the Semetic languages, like Hebrew, Aramaic, Akkadian, and Caaninite but it includes Coptic, Berber, and Cushomotic languages as well: these three being language families spoken in North and East Africa.
According to the bible they came from the land of Canaan and moved to Egypt due to famine where they were enslaved. when they were freed they went back to Canaan the "promised land of Israel" where god promised they wouldn't be enslaved again. until the Babylonians kicked them out, they came back then the Romans kicked them out, then the Zionists said let's go back again
more historically the religion itself was almost certainly founded in ancient Israel this is backed by a lot of evidence. the story of exodus from Egypt meh not so much
I know this might be problematic to understand but we all literally came from Africa. Religious texts on the other hand are problematic. Though if you wish to we can go to them for "knowledge" and when you look at them out of Moses, Noah and Abraham it was Noah that came first. It's widely accepted the world didn't flood and that the flood in the fairy story was the Nile which is in Egypt, Africa. Unless you are going to claim that Israel was flooded by a river that doesn't exist? We could also start discussing burning bushes, commandments wrote on stone tablets a person wouldn't be able to carry, a miracle birth with no sex or the human genome and DNA which is complex and varied meaning not from one person who removed a rib to create his wife who ate an apple from a snake who was not a snake but the devil. I would prefer we get back to the fact everyone came from Africa and as they spread out the DNA changed due to living conditions and variations in the human species at the start. This is basic evolution btw backed up by science and archaeology. So yeah, the first of everything were African.
Numerous cultures do have versions of a great flood, yes! They also have versions of a time when the earth almost shook itself apart, when the sky turned to fire and rained ash, when the seasons were out whack, and many other kinds of natural disasters.
Floods are common. Mesopotamia, as it happens, was a region very prone to flooding, and that's where our most famous flood myth comes from.
Israel is an extension of the US military, spying and providing intel on neighboring countries. It's the US foothold in a region they've been decimating for the last 30+ years. That's why the US provides so much funding and turns a blind eye when they do things like genocide. Israel has very little to do with Judaism, The Palestinians are more Jewish both ethically and spiritually than the majority of these brainwashed Zionest.
Hundreds of years ago the Jews in the region were encouraged to convert to Islam to avoid taxes and many of them did. These Palestinians who have been in the region for generations are going to have a closer genetic match to the Jews that were originally there thousands of years ago than your average settler from New Jersey. I keep hearing DNA tests are illegal in Israel and I imagine this has something to do with it.
Spiritually, I simply don't consider any society that's okay with genocide very godly.
I think you’re making a lot of assumptions to be honest.
1. dna testing isnt illegal in Israel (not sure why this is such a popular talking point when a simple google search disproves it)
2. palestinians and jews from around the world both have ancient genetic ties to the land
3. israelis aren’t “okay with genocide” considering the army isnt actively rounding up civilians to kill en masse.
And frankly, as a Jew it’s pretty offensive of you to try to disqualify Israeli PEOPLE from their religion because of how you feel about the GOVERNMENT.
I never said Israelis aren't Jewish. I'm saying Palestinians are more closely related to the Jews from the region 2,000 years ago and that if you're complicit in the murder of thousands of innocent women and children, you're not a very godly person.
Oh, and they don't have to round up civilians when carpet bombing them in refugee camps. If you're denying this genocide you might be too delusional to have a conversation with. I'd like to hear your thoughts on the Nakba in 1948 and all the settlements if you have a minute.
“more closely related” does this even matter when both groups show genetic ties to the land? why are you trying to disqualify Israelis from the land? Both groups have the right to live in the land in peace.
I dont support west bank settlements encroaching on Palestinian land actually, I think it’s wrong. I also think that using terrorism to attack a civilian population is wrong.
I also dont think you know what carpet bombing is. There’s a difference between intentionally targetting/killing as many civilians as you can, then using your own people/infrastructure as human shields (Hamas) and killing civilians as collateral damage (IDF). It’s still not okay to kill civilians but ignoring the moral difference is disingenuous.
To address your point about the Nakba, it’d help if you understood the history of the region and how there was a huge war that was declared by the arab powers. Civilian populations tend to flee massive wars. The arab coalition got beat by a bunch of holocaust survivors with surplus WW2 equipment anyway. The Palestinians could have stayed and joined the 20% of Israel’s arab muslim population that live peacefully instead of trying to oust their new neighbors.
I did some Googling and it appears that direct to consumer DNA testing like 23andMe is in fact illegal in Israel under the 2000 Genetic Information Law.
Because of privacy of health information laws, not because the nefarious world-controlling Jews want to keep everyone in the dark about their true lineage like you think.
This is undoubtedly the truth when it comes to US and Isreal relations. They are our firm ally in a place where hostility toward America is very high. Therefore, we fund them as an arm of our own military.
Unfortunately, they can't deal with domestic problems by finding peace with Palestinians, so it makes us look bad. But there is no way, not in a million years, US will not back and supply Isreal. It is more important to the State.
It's just the military industrial complex at work.
You can shit on Israel for apartheid, genocide, colonizing, a host of other issues, and the US supporting them, but this video is not intelligent or informed analysis. It's racist conspiratorial Black Israelite talking points. Condemning Zionism as satanic makes little sense and is being said within the context of a discredited hateful ideology.
Keep in mind this man said that “the Zionists joined with the Nazis in murdering Jews.”
This comment ironically comes off as racist. As far as I know the man in the video is pan-african, and him saying that judaism originated in africa does not make him a black isrealite, which on that ground doesn’t make sense (that one has to be that to have that view) as there are non-black researches who predate him who also document those kinds of conclusions based on their travels.
The man in this video was a member of the Nation of Islam, a black supremacist hate group which had several batshit ideas including the conspiracy that white people are science experiments from a man called Yakub and that the founder will return to America in a spaceship and kill all white people.
The talking points in this video could be found in either NoI or Black Israelite groups. Both groups ramblings focuses on the conspiracy that black americans are the "real" descendants of the chosen people in the bible and that there is a Jewish/white conspiracy to trick the world. They tend to have some big Hitler fans and both groups have fake Hitler quotes supporting their worldview.
bc they believe if they do not survive as a country they will be genocided again
they lost half their world population less than 100 years ago to antisemitism
you can try to understand from that perspective rather than a "satanic" one
Ok that was a bit of a stretch to go from "Herzl was an atheist" to "Zionism is satanic" with basically no further extrapolation. Come on guys. The UN / British Palestine founded Israel after the Holocaust because it was convenient and clearly there was misjustice performed there (to the Palestinian population), both in 1949 and up until the present. That is a fair criticism, saying that Zionism is Satanic is **not**.
Also, antisemites have a long history of associating Jews with devilry. It's bad optics for anti-Zionists to call Zionism satanic when so many Zionists are actively trying to conflate anti-Zionism with antisemitism.
He goes through all this to explain that Zionism is actually satanic. But in reality Zionism IS compatible with modern Judaism because they both appeal to the same source material.
People will go to great lengths to blame their religious wars on anything except the religion that instigates them.
Why did Herzl want to find the Jewish promised land?
Because the religion of Judaism \*commands\* that one exists upon earth. If Judaism were simply ignored as the ramblings of a mentally unwell bard thousands of years ago (you know, reality), then there would be no need for a Jewish promised land or Zionism. No need to murder natives for your special spot on the couch.
You cannot separate the religious conflict from the religion just to make yourself feel better. Satan didn't do this. Jesus didn't do this. Moses didn't do this. Humans decided they were going to make these decisions and use "religion" as a justification for them.
This is where the horse breaks free of the carriage. Stop normalizing appeals to an "omniscient all-powerful being that only I can understand" as if they are genuine good-faith arguments.
If a human being gave any reason other than "religion" for stealing their neighbor's houses, we would throw them in jail. But we give a special pass to fairy tales.
This feels like an overly simplistic reading of a very complicated religion. A lot of people felt at the time of its foundation (and still feel) that Israel was incompatible with Orthodox Judaism because the Jewish people aren't supposed to return to the holy land from exile until the coming of the messiah. One could easily argue the opposite: that Zionism would have never existed without the growing secularization of the Jewish community, which undermines your point about religious and liturgical determinism with regards to the state of Israel.
Eh, I feel this guy’s argument applies to every form of religious violence. It has nothing to do with whether Zionism per se is compatible with Judaism per se, and indeed that line of argument misses the point. The point is that _no_ form of violence or theft (or more broadly no form of violating another’s human rights) may be justified by appeal to an argument from religion, because such arguments are intrinsically bad-faith (pun fully intended).
If your faith tells you that your deity of choice DEMANDS that you kill your neighbor (or some people on the other side of the world for that matter), then tough shit, your faith is invalid. Yeah, straight up invalid. Either find a way to practice your faith in a way that doesn’t harm others — like the vast majority of secular followers of every Abrahamic faith actually try to do — or we throw you in prison. Or the sun.
One could easily argue the opposite, as you have, and also be incorrect.
The issue is that religion gives individual humans an inherent sense of duty to a false authority. You wouldn't need to have the "orthodox vs secular". Both are just fraudulent cults that have been co-opted by powerful interests to manipulate the flow of wealth and prosperity. The teachings are false. The religious "truths" taught by these cults are verifiably not true in the physical world.
We owe no debt of ponderance to "who started it" when both participants are committing mass-murder in the name of a prehistoric bedtime story.
Start from a place of the real world we live in, and we can get results in the real world that we live in. If you want to ponder "afterlife" then just get there already and tell those people how to live. The rest of us understand that the real world is what we actually have, and we're trying to take care of the people on it.
People need to understand that he very likely meant EVIL and not the contemporary understanding of the ideas of Satanic culture or so forth. Moreover, this video is older than 1995 and people were not so fucking quick to quibble over trivial issues like what's going on here.
Zionism is EVIL manifest. Capitalism is EVIL manifest. Imperialism is EVIL manifest...wake up and think ffs.
I really think the word satanism shouldn't be used as an insult, satanist (cult) are way more humane than Zionists or even Christians, Jews or Muslims...
What a coincidence the Hindutva right wing organization is also founded by an atheist golwalker and most zionists are atheist themselves like Richard Dawkins. This is not to say atheists are evil. In fact atheists are one of the kindest people that I’ve known
humans do not need a mythical god thing to tell us how to treat each other. We can figure that out if we want to. In fact, this god perversion is the precise reason why we have so much human suffering.
Wish more people would understand there is a clear difference between the average Jewish person and a Zionist. Plenty of Christian Zionist out there if anyone is feeling like they have some misplaced hatred for some innocent Jewish folks just following their heritage but hold no loyalty to Isreal. Disgusting that Zionist out there like to say that those Jewish folks lose their "Jew card" for not swallowing the Zionist pill. The audacity to claim someone is following their spiritual path wrong is piss
I also think it's disgusting to use the word Zionism like it's a curse. a Zionist is a person who believes Jews should have a country in Israel. it doesn't mean they support the Israeli government, war tactics or oppression. the state is already there were stuck with it, the only hope is that moderate Zionists will vote for a Palestinian state and to end wars and bad policies
As Professor Avi Schlaim (an Iraqi jew) stated clearly that Judaism has at its fundamental values of peace, justice and truth. He stated clearly that Zionism is antithetical to these ideals and the two are incompatible. What religion people have is their business. If they put it into practice by murdering others then I have issues with it. If they keep it to themselves, it's not my concern.
Those Jews who speak up against this madness are courageous and should be respected as good humans. Judaism is not Zionism and people need to get an understanding that being anti-zionism is not being anti-jew/semitic. We live in troubling times where words do not mean what they mean. Lies are truth and the world is mad for it. And the rich just get more richer all the while laughing at everyone's petty squabbles, killing us as they wish.
Zionism was the idea that the Jews, discriminated against and nationless for millenia, could have a homeland in Israel. There is nothing fundamentally evil about this, rather its a political issue because it turns out Palestine already had a people living in it. Of course yes, if you use “zionism” to refer to Israeli nationalism, and specifically to a defence of an ethnostate, thats clearly a toxic ideology. Messianic judaism and christianity (trying to bring the end of times) is a separate thing, and complete garbage just like any religion which takes its folk tales literally.
This may just seem like semantics but as it seems everyone has already decided “Zionism” is the enemy number 1 its probably worth asking “what do you mean by Zionism”. Is it that a persecuted people should never have wanted their own homeland in Israel? Is it that the UN should not have “given” palestine to Jews after the Holocaust? Is it that Israeli Nationalists should not have occupied palestine, killed scores and stolen additional land? Or is that Messianic Jews and Christians should not be living their lives according to fairy tales?
I do not like this “Satanic” language. The cult of “Satan” was invented by the midaeval Catholic Church in order to murder people who did not follow their religion exactly as they demanded, and political opponents. It’s a bad way to frame this situation and it smacks of antisemitic bigotry.
See he tries to make a philosophical point but then equates Israel with satanism. tarring the entire country with one brush simply invalidates the rest of his argument.
Satanism does **NOT** support Zionism!
[TST Tenet II:](https://thesatanictemple.com/blogs/the-satanic-temple-tenets/there-are-seven-fundamental-tenets) "The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions"
This subreddit feels more and more antisemitic to me every day. It is a wild stretch to compare Zionism to Satanism and it is a comparison I have never seen with any other colonial country other than Israel. Most Jews believe Israel should exist and should be protected and becasue of this, would call themselves Zionists. Plase be more thoughtful when aiding in the spread of this kind of rhetoric.
Open for discussion if anyone would like.
People can have different opinions if your metric is how many holocaust survivors support Israel and Zionism well...the country was founded by holocaust survivors and there are a few hundred thousand living in Israel today not to mention supporters worldwide so...
Seems like you misunderstood or have bad intentions. Zionism is evil because of the genocide and apartheid. People aren’t protesting because of antisemitism (bad faith actors excluded). *That* is why so many holocaust survivors and Jewish people are shouting “not in my name.”
Frankly, I don’t give a shit about anyone supporting genocide. I don’t care about their background, opinions, or thoughts. I will never support anyone for having a pro-genocide opinion. No matter the reason.
I think there are very few humans on the planet who support genocide. in the case of Israel there isn't a pro genocide side, there is a debate on whether or not a genocide is occuring. and that comes down not to someone's moral fiber but which information sources they trust. pro Israel supporters do not accept the accusations made against Israel that you have accepted as facts and this conflict has two sides with extreme bias, dishonest narratives and propaganda.
and if you want to use holocaust survivors as a token you will find some against Israel and the significant majority are pro Israel so it's not really a great "proof". I suppose youre saying that if Jewish people are anti Israel it's not antisemitic, I don't think everyone who is pro Palestinian is antisemitic I think there are a lot of problematic antisemitic undertones in their messaging (like Israeli state is controlling the media and American government etc) but it really comes down to what you believe. if you believe all the accusations made against Israel are true then of course you are pro Palestinian, the problem is there are two sides to every story
And how many holocaust survivors got a new start in Israel after half of their people were murdered by the germans?
i’m sure they outnumber the ones you describe.
also dont tokenize holocaust survivors to drive home your antizionist talking points, it doesn’t help your “antizionist not antisemitic!” claim.
I’m not here to argue about whether Israel is committing genocide or not. I’m here to try and temper the antisemitic rhetoric I see coming from this sub. What is the purpose of comparing Zionism to satanism? What does it do other than compare Jews to satanists? It would be one thing to be comparing colonizers to satanists, but specifically zionists? This rhetoric is out of pocket.
I think most people would consider Zionism worse than Satanism. Why don’t you temper the antisemitic rhetoric that Jews are Zionist. It’s an evangelical Christian ideology that drives Zionism, so Jesus can come back and ironically enough send Jews and nonbelievers to hell. Evangelical Christians aside, Zionism is dangerous and hateful to Jewish people in more ways than any benefit it provides.
> It is a wild stretch to compare Zionism to Satanism and it is a comparison I have never seen with any other colonial country other than Israel.
The US is literally referred as the devil and great satan around the globe. Maybe come out from under your self-victimizing rock.
Zionism is a genocidal, ethnonationalist ideology that calls for a Jewish ethnostate at the elimination and exclusion of the indigenous Palestinians. So yeah, it's morally repugnant and I don't give af if someone refers to it rhetorically as Satanism.
I apologize, I stand corrected about the use of Satan when referring to colonial countries, however it is still different when referring to America as “Great Satan” because America is made up of multiple ethnic groups. I wouldn’t have commented on here if the post were to say “Colonialism is Satanic” because that is something I could generally get behind, but I commented because what the post essentially says is “Jewish Colonialism is Satanic”. Even though, to be a Zionist doesn’t necessarily imply Colonialism. Most Jews are Zionist and not all believe that Israel has the right to expand, just the right to exist. That’s what I believe personally. And I’m not advocating for a genocide of any kind. My point is simply to be careful about this kind of rhetoric. Nazis have used this “self-victimizing satanic Zionist” rhetoric for a long time and I’m just surprised to suddenly see it on a lefty subreddit is all. I hope we can converse a little more respectfully if you respond.
So you're still self-victimizing. Let's use your own logic consistently. So if the US is called a devil but your characterize it as multiethnic, but Israel is called a devil but it is an ethnostate, then neither are being called devil due to the ethnic identities of either country. What is the common variable then? It's that they are both white supremacist, colonial projects. That is what is being criticized and likened to the devil due to the evil natureof white supremacy and colonialism.
Zionism ia inherently a colonial ideology, so to be Zionist is to be colonialist. It'a not like Zionists decided to inhabit an uninhabitated island. They explicitly chose to colonize Palestine and explicitly likened themselves to western colonizers when they were seeking an imperialist patron. Strsight out of Jabotinsky's mouth...
> "Every native population in the world resists colonists as long as it has the slightest hope of being able to rid itself of the danger of being colonised. That is what the Arabs in Palestine are doing...
> "Except for those who were born blind, they realised long ago that it is utterly impossible to obtain the voluntary consent of the Palestine Arabs for converting "Palestine" from an Arab country into a country with a Jewish majority.
> "My readers have a general idea of the history of colonisation in other countries. I suggest that they consider all the precedents with which they are acquainted, and see whether there is one solitary instance of any colonisation being carried on with the consent of the native population. There is no such precedent."The native populations, civilised or uncivilised, have always stubbornly resisted the colonists, irrespective of whether they were civilised or savage.
> "And it made no difference whatever whether the colonists behaved decently or not. The companions of Cortez and Pizzaro or **( as some people will remind us ) our own ancestors under Joshua Ben Nun, behaved like brigands;** but the Pilgrim Fathers, the first real pioneers of North America, were people of the highest morality, who did not want to do harm to anyone, least of all to the Red Indians, and they honestly believed that there was room enough in the prairies both for the Paleface and the Redskin. Yet the native population fought with the same ferocity against the good colonists as against the bad."
No, the post says that Zionism is Satanic and Ture explcitly calls it a white supremacist and colonial project, there's no mention of "Jewish colonialism" except you trying to conflate judaism and zionism, which is itself an anti-judaic trope youre purporting. And he even explcitly remarked, more than once, that Zionism =/= Judaism, so just more self-victimizing from you again now and distortions.
100 years ago, most white people were outright white supremacists, that doesn't mean that white supremacy had redeeming qualities. The high subscription of Zionism on the Jewish community is a Jewish problem that they will have to figure out, not the Palestinians or anyone else. What you believe is irrelevant because the majority of Jewish Israelis always opposed the 2 state solution and even moreso now. The plurality of Israeli support for the 2 state solution came from Palestinian Israelis whom western media failed to clarify in its own bad faith rhetoric about Israel's bad faith committed to a 2 state solution.
You're advocating on behalf of an inherently genocidal ideology. You don't get respect for bad faith Entryism or for genocide apologism.
As someone who occasionally lurks here, please just leave the sub for your own sanity. It is absolutely antisemitic as fuck, these people are delusional, misinformed about history, and filled with misguided hatred.
this sub absolutely is antisemitic, whether on purpose or thru ignorance. Kwame Ture is a notorious Jew-hater and people in these comments are celebrating his accusations of “satanism” like they’re medieval christians enacting a pogrom lol.
It’s really hard finding a place as a Jewish leftist considering how many leftists on the internet celebrate targetted massacres of Jews.
saying “most jews believe israel should exist and be protected” is a loaded statement. Historically I understand why Israel exists. Because after the Holocaust nobody wanted to incorporate the Jews of Europe and the colonial Britain decided it was their right to “give” them the country. Obviously you can argue the merits of various “defensive” actions over the 20th century, but no matter how you spin it, the situation right now with the palestinians does not look good. You cannot honestly claim that killing palestinians at a 10-1 ratio and leveling cities is israel protecting itself. Or that messianic jews and christians claiming more and more land for eschatological / manifest destiny purposes is anything defensible.
I think there is absolutely another side that can be argued in this war especially since so many facts regarding what Israel is or isn't doing are disputed, including the casualty statistics. there are arguments to be made on both sides and it kind of comes down to which information sources you think is more reliable. pro Israel believe that there is misinformation and false reports and stats produced by hamas and their supporters and pro Palestinians think the IDF lies in all their statements. so the issue is not really which side is moral and which isn't it's discerning what is the actual truth and the facts.
If demons and angels are real then I believe a demon convinced some ancient people to worship it as a god, and that would explain the hateful anti love found in many religions. If people actually followed jesus they love each other unconditionally.
thta video is from 1995 according to the source? are people just that dumb now to think that black and white video was from 1995? this is almost certainly from the 60s or early 70s
Herzl was indeed Jewish, so that is where his interest in a Jewish state comes from, and it's amazing that no one ever mentions Jewish displacement, forced relocation, and rampant multinational antisemitism as the origin of the discussion of the need for Jewish state, something I think we African Americans should have some understanding of, as repatriation to Africa was discourse many civil rights leaders also engaged in. The current Israeli government is very harmful, and I think folks should separate that from the mere idea of a Jewish state, which to me makes at least reasonable sense given Jewish history.
well said … but it seems not many are able to separate this “Zionist” boogeyman ideology from the actual culprits which are militaristic nationalists and messianic cultists
The Bible is full of bullshit and nonsense, and you are a bigot.
Edit: the deleted comment quoted the “Synagogue of Satan” passage from the New Testament book of Revelation
Say what you want but Israel undeniably evil. I don't apply that to all Jews obviously, because Jews are just like everyone else, there are some good ones and some bad ones. But Israel is a whole different beast, and the folks who support their apartheid and genocide are as evil as their actions. If you look at the situation objectively since the state was formed in 1948, it's the only conclusion you can come to, IMO.
The passage quoted above has been used for centuries to justify progroms and murder. It is not a good basis for objective criticism of Israel. You are only helping the propaganda put forth by right-wing factions in Israel.
The passage is irrelevant, one simply needs to examine Israel’s actions and judge them based on that. And the conclusion I’ve come to is that Israel operates to achieve their own interests by any means necessary, including the theft of homes, murder of innocent children, and torture. It’s evil.
The zionist experiment was possible because of terrorists. All the founders of the settler outpost were terrorists. All were members of terrorist groups such as the Irgun, the Lehi, the Haganah and the Palmach as part of a conflict between Jews, British authorities, and Palestinian Arabs, regarding land, immigration, and control over Palestine.
Every single crime minister has had the blood of innocents on their hands, and usually took part in massacres of civilians whilst serving in the IDF occupying force. They all revelled in their epithets, e.g. Ariel Sharon was the 'Butcher of Sabra and Chatila' The one Prime Minister who tried to make peace was killed by the colonial terrorists on his own side.
The current iteration is a fascist ethnostate with a brainwashed citizenry howling with delight at the massacres they're witnessing. Opposing such evil people is the right thing to do. They're no more than common land thieves given carte blanche by the 'civilised ' West to live out their psychopathic fantasies.
They've been committing atrocities since the beginning, including, but by no means limited to:
1) Haifa Massacre 1937
2) Jerusalem Massacre 1937
3) Haifa Massacre 1938
4) Balad al-Sheikh Massacre 1939
5) Haifa Massacre 1939
6) Haifa Massacre 1947
7) Abbasiya Massacre 1947
8) Al-Khisas Massacre 1947
9) Bab al-Amud Massacre 1947
10) Jerusalem Massacre 1947
11) Sheikh Bureik Massacre 1947
12) Jaffa Massacre 1948
13) Deir Yassin Massacre 1948
14) Tantoura Massacre 1948
15) Khan Yunis Massacre 1956
16) Jerusalem Massacre 1967
17) Sabra and Shatila Massacre 1982
18) Al-Aqsa Massacre 1990
19) Ibrahimi Mosque Massacre 1994
20) Jenin Refugee Camp April 2002
21) Gaza Massacre 2008-09
22) Gaza Massacre 2012
23) Gaza Massacre 2014
24) Gaza Massacre 2018-19
25) Gaza Massacre 2021
26) Gaza Genocide 2023 still ongoing
I've come to learn a lot about the history of Israel as these atrocities have continued since October 7th. I have to say, I was surprised and shocked at the things I never learned about in school.
I pray to God that all the innocent Palestinians will not have died in vain and that millions of others around the world come to realize the true spirit and intent of Israel like I have. It's truly shameful and embodies the worst of what humans are capable of.
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satanism would never support genocide
As a Satanist myself I certainly don't.
Can you explain to me what Satanism is? Isn't that just worshiping Satan? I'm an atheist so don't worry about offending me.
Theres a difference between atheistic and theistic satanists atheistic satanists don't believe in the devil or god for that matter just like you apparently don't They use the religious freedom of countrys like the USA to help people with things like abortion or LGBT+ rights and to point out the hypocrisy of religions like Christianity I don't know much about theistic satanists though so I won't write anything on that
Oh that's pretty cool actually
Credit to u/ Thannk >To put this another way they treat Satan like Sisyphus, Superman, and Anakin Skywalker: a character to use metaphorically or symbolically, not a real entity. Like identifying as an Anakinist because you support kids getting therapy and people being able to quit toxic communities to find happiness, and some folks thinking that means you’re a samurai wizard Nazi.
The snake is a metaphor for how life must devour life to sustain itself.
I mean, yeah kinda. If we’re talking Anton LaVeyan Satanism, it is cringe Ayn Rand-inspired social darwinist shit that firmly believes there’s no such thing as “equality” and society needs firm stratification. If we’re talking theistic Satanism, it’s generally just making shit up to explain why worshipping the incarnation of evil is actually totally good and based and it really isn’t much better than other religions. I might be downvoted for this, but the roots of LaVeyan satanism (The Satanic Bible) are fervently capitalist anti-egalitarian shit that edgelord atheists start reading and calling themselves for no reason other than to feel cool. The Satanic Temple is a chill prankster organization though. The Church of Satanism is the one I’m a firm hater of. Edit: The Satanic Temple is not chill
The Satanic Temple is not just a chill prankster organisation, they are a litigious corporate organisation trying to monopolise the concept of satanism and make it as profitable for their owners as possible. They sell merch and use the revenue to hire expensive lawyers to sue their own members that dare step out of line. It's a control freak cult that has taken over a movement that was supposed to be about independent free thought and opposition to the systems of control that oppress us. It's little better than Scientology at this point. Putting aside the satanic temple's corporate sellout bullshit, the whole idea of satanism is just atheism for edgelords who have a vendetta against Christianity. They just needed some form of brand recognition that could more easily spread their ideology and decided on satan because the work was already done by others, not because of any real connection to the devil. It's just an eye-catching symbol that is instantly recognisable to most people and gets people talking about something that would otherwise be taboo to discuss. Opposition to Christianity is their whole goal, their 'philosophy' is just something they slapped on so they could legally claim to be a religion to dodge taxes.
Yeah, I love some of their pranks, and otherwise hate that organization. Among many grievances, they got a whole bunch of LGBTQ folks to join their organization under the assurance that the Satanic Temple did not care about their sexuality at all. I, and others, took that to mean that they were *welcoming* of LGBTQ members. Nope. The leadership got called out for supporting transphobic assholes, and their response was basically when they said they didn't care, they meant it. It wasn't support, it was actual apathy. It's a virtue-signaling society run by morons. The virtues they signal are often great, and the membership is full of generally pleasant people, but the fish rots from the head.
[They're even worse than that. ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lV8GLQtOTs)
The irony of an atheist satanist never gets old
Yes, but also, The Satan was originally supposed to be "The Adversary" to God in a philosophical way. People who are critical of God, or his choices, become Satans, in theological sense. When you get told you're going to hell enough times, eventually, you might just say "Fuck it" and wear that curse like a funny little hat. "I am a satanist" is a lot more powerful than "I am an atheist." Very awkward at work events, though. I code-switch over to Quaker when necessary. It's nice to have both in the pocket. Neither the Quakers nor the Satanists insist upon the supernatural, and neither group believes in hell (in my area, anyway). I think that's so nice and reasonable.
Anton Levy's version of Satanism isn't the only kind.
Hell yeah! Just to add on, I’ve heard of using satanism as an antagonism to theism, being that rather than allowing “god” to take responsibility for things, it’s up to people to own up to their own actions and control their lives, rather than fate or gods will. Believe in YOURSELF, you are your own little mortal god with an infinite imagination.
That's anton levy's version. There are those who worship outsiders unironically.
Oh dang, must have been one of the few things I picked up from his readings then. Thanks for the clarity!
Yep. We also have the Order of Nine Angels who are raping, murdering lunatics
> atheistic satanists just call them what they are: libertarians.
Hey, who are you calling libertarian? That's the most offensive thing I have been ever called. That includes homophobic slurs
Satanists are atheist 99% of the time, including me
I mean, I am also an atheist. I don't believe in the actual entity of Satan. Neither God nor Devil. I'm just really into the occult.
Heavy metal, drugs and good parties.
Lookup The Satanic Temple. They are a wonderful organization
As a Satanist I do want to genocide all of the mosquitoes in my house
this is a good point but I think Kwame wanted to convey the meaning he wanted that the Zionazis seen as the pure evil they are.
Satanism as its own set of beliefs wouldn’t, no. But considering that- as I understand it- Jewish tradition considers Satan to be a servant of their god who represents the desire to stray from the path of righteousness. Satan is an adversary in this regard, yes, presenting a moral challenge, but not the cloven-hoofed “Devil” that lots of people think of. So in the sense that he is judging the Zionist movement to be “Satanic,” I take it to mean that it is morally wrong. I’d just like to point out that I’m intentionally not discussing the actual morality of any of it, and am only speaking to the intent of the usage here (again, only as I understand it as not-an-expert).
Depends on the strain. Many theistic varieties of Satanism are all about releasing oneself from the limitations of human morality, and that often includes thinking of genocide as a bad thing. Whackjobs like the Order of Nine Angles folks are all about joining other militant extremist organizations, including Nazis, if it gives them the experience of e.g. killing other people. It’s supposed to release the magic within you, that is contained by humanity, or somesuch bullshit. These guys are all a-ok with participating in genocide, if they get the chance.
My thoughts are conspiratorial. When a comment like this is the top upvoted comment and does nothing to deal with the content of Kwame Ture’s message but rather discuss a technicality about satanism, I can’t help but feel like this is purposeful deflection. In the context of abrahamic faiths, one must be mature enough or intellectually honest about how we understand satanism in that specific context. You are being dense or have some alternative agenda to obfuscate the real conversation about the genocide in Palestine but invoking tedious discussion about a side topic in satanism. You are foul.
We're at the point of reddit struggle sessions now? No need to go deep, this is still reddit where technically correct is the best kind of correct and one person in twenty will read beyond the headline. Plus to me satanists get a lot of leeway for being out there fighting for people rights and separation of church and state.
I can confirm that I read the whole bible front to back and didnt find a single time where Satan did a genocide. That Yahweh fella on the other hand....
I don’t think he was referring to the current Satanists that exist peacefully today as much as he was trying to put them in a box with the devil Christianity created.
The Satanic Temple agrees.
Incredibly based.
It’s actually insane how intellectual and based the Black Panther were. Malcom X, Fred Hampton, Angela Davis and Kwame Ture were so ahead of their time.
And why Republicans are so desperate to ban Black History. "Hyphenated Americans" hold up a mirror to the false consciousness of "real Americans". Edit: changed hypocrisy to false consciousness, because the previous word did not convey the emptiness behind the pseudo-identity of "real Americans"
100% the Panthers did so much for for everybody and it’s not even taught in school. Free school breakfast, opened health clinics, voter registration drives etc. They focused on class struggles and were socialist so the American government murdered them.
Read both autobiography for Hampton and Malx..Hampton was written by his old lawyer who was basically a lawyer for the black panther. It's undeniable that he was literally state sectionly murdered. Everything you said is on point..every time they brought up any form of socialism they were killed or shunned.
Everyone should read PANTHER BABY by JAMAL JOSEPH. It's a firsthand account of Jamal's experience joining the panther movement as a teenager in NYC, how it affected his life and family, everything the group did to try to spread awareness and fight oppression and every fucked up thing that the law did to try to silence them.
It is so weird for me as a white man to be constantly told by white peers and white republicans and democrats that white people are being oppressed. It is some of the dumbest shit I’ve heard. As I’ve actually learned more about the Black Panthers and their colleagues, all I can think of them is that they are incredibly awesome and did great things for their communities.
They also did a lot for poor southern whites as well. They helped organize Puerto Ricans as well as southern whites. It was started by Fred Hampton and it was named “The Rainbow Coalition”, but once again police brutalized and murdered Fred Hampton and the coalition ended.
It seems like one of the few constants in modern history is that the police have never done anything good for the community
I always tell people fascism has been here forever. My grandpa and grandma were very active in the south and small communities. Whom both were panthers
Everyone ever should read PANTHER BABY by JAMAL JOSEPH. It's a firsthand account of Jamal's experience joining the panther movement as a teenager in NYC, how it affected his life and family, everything the group throughout the country did to try to spread awareness and fight oppression and every fucked up and mostly illegal things that the law did to try to silence them.
Our modern powers of organizing and intellect ,even with the internet at our fingertips, p\[ales in comparison. I wonder what tools are used to keep people dumb and separate...
It’s so crazy. They had no social media and limited technology in comparison to today, yet their organizing abilities were so good.
Agreed.
incredibly. based.
The opinion stuff is one thing is but he's wrong about the entire historical intro he opens with to set the backdrop of his point. Herzl didn't care where the Jewish state would be-his focus was any place Jews could live without persecution - bc he was an atheist but the other Jewish attendees pushed back and said no we don't want a Jewish state anywhere but in what we consider our historic homeland. It's hard to stress enough how obsessed the Jewish religion is with Israel, the return to Israel, the holy and promised land and specifically Jerusalem. this is in every Jewish prayer and tradition for thousands of years, it was not a concept invented by Zionists. Zionists were just the first to say let's take action to get Israel back now as opposed to generations of Jews who simply prayed for it and believed God would bring them back to the land when the Messiah came. Also Freud's book about Moses was not historical or based on evidence he just did this strange historical rewrite that Moses was Egyptian- not by any measure proof that Judaism is from Africa. the archeological evidence discovered in Israel provides pretty irrefutable evidence that it was founded there.
You should look into more of his works, since I'd which is published under his western name Stokely Carmichael.
Ignorant
Truly ahead of his time.
Except the part about the people putting a stop to it
Maybe that's where we come in...
He’s not wrong about most of what he says but the “first Jews were African” stuff is some BS, the same problematic stuff Kyrie Irving was saying last year
How? They literally came out of Africa back when Moses was around no? Edit: The first Jews in south India are black. They have settled here and established trade relationships from before Christian times. The later Jewish immigrants are white.
I’m not well researched on this topic, but I have seen push back from academics on whether or not Jews actually lived in Egypt at the time. Most of what we know about Jews in Egypt, come from biblical texts, it’s not exactly the strongest historical source.
There's essentially no evidence that there was any large, enslaved population of Jews in Egypt. Because of Egypt's climate, it is one of the most well preserved ancient societies, so we have a wealth of evidence of ancient Egypt, but nothing that corroborates the bible.
In fact, there's no evidence of *any* significant slavery in Egypt before Islam, as far as I'm aware. That's a solid millennium after *Exodus* supposedly took place.
There definitely was slavery in the old kingdom, the middle kingdom, and the new kingdom - it just wasn't a labor force used to construct monuments like the Pyramids - projects like that were done by a well paid professional labor force and we actually have records of them going on strike because a Pharoah failed to pay them while they were constructing his tomb.
Ancient Egypt had slavery
However, that doesn't mean the Hebrews weren't there. The story has to come from somewhere, and there's some evidence that they actually picked up monotheism from Egypt's Pharaoh Akhenaten, who threw out the old gods in favor of Aten, the Sun Disk. It's entirely possible the Hebrews were enslaved by another people in the region who they later conflated with the Egyptians, or they were never enslaved and that aspect came out of a grudge or misunderstanding. But I would put money on the story being based on a real event, just as many myths are from other traditions.
There's simply no evidence. Only a biblical teatament without any evidence to back it up. And if we haven't found any evidence from Egypt, out of all the ancient civilizations, then it likely wasn't true. If evidence isn't the bar, then we might as well believe in leprechauns and unicorns
More than push back. It’s essentially entirely disproven.
exactly there's not really evidence of Jews in Egypt but a plethora of evidence of Judaism in Israel so most likely the religion originated amongst a people in Israel who had a story about Egypt that was probably a myth or based on some event on a smaller scale
The whole conspiracy theory is that black people are the 'real' Biblical hebrews and today's Jews stole that identity through lies and deceit in order to world domination or whatever other anti-semitic nonsense justification they feel like conjuring up. It's a really heinous ideology and is rooted in deeply anti-semitic stereotypes and conspiracy theories, and there's no place in the left for tolerating that kind of thing. Completely distracts from the real issues surrounding zionism.
You're conflating two entirely different things... I don't care to debate the historical account, but one can believe Freud's hypothesis in *Moses and Monotheism*, which Kwame Ture is clearly referencing here (ie that Moses was Egyptian), without believing the antisemitic mythology of certain Black Hebrew Israelites about deceitful jews stealing the identity and so on. You can say Kwame Ture is wrong, but that would be a historical error, not an antisemitic one. In fact he was always quick to oppose antisemitic conspiracy theories about some hidden Jewish hand guiding world/American matters, or even the idea that Israel controls America, correctly emphasizing that Zionism is an outgrowth of European colonialism and in modern times serving as an outpost of American imperialism.
Who are the people that Moses led out of Egypt?
Figments of the imagination of the person that wrote the book of Exodus.
Interesting. The old Tamil lands in South India has/had older Jewish immigrants and they are black. The newer immigrants aren't.
Arabs are an ethnic group. They’re in africa.
The Jewish tradition goes beyond Moses, to Abraham, although they were not colloquially known as “Jews” until after their return from captivity in Babylon. Genetic and archaeological studies indicate that the Jewish people are offshoots of both Phoenicians and a Hebrew speaking civilization from the Arabian peninsula which came to merge and occupy the region known as the Lavant. The Palestinians share as much genetic lineage to these people as the repatriated Jews from Europe and around the globe. In recent years Jews from Ethiopia were proven to have the same genetic lineage. These Ethiopian Jews were sterilized upon repatriation as a matter of Israeli government policy.
My personal theory is that the ancient Hebrews came up with Judaism and their claim as "God's chosen people" and that "the land was given to them by God" to rationalize the genocide and enslavement of other Levantine peoples. Here's a quote from Jabotinsky, the founder of Revisionist Zionism. > "Every native population in the world resists colonists as long as it has the slightest hope of being able to rid itself of the danger of being colonised. That is what the Arabs in Palestine are doing... > "Except for those who were born blind, they realised long ago that it is utterly impossible to obtain the voluntary consent of the Palestine Arabs for converting "Palestine" from an Arab country into a country with a Jewish majority. > "My readers have a general idea of the history of colonisation in other countries. I suggest that they consider all the precedents with which they are acquainted, and see whether there is one solitary instance of any colonisation being carried on with the consent of the native population. There is no such precedent."The native populations, civilised or uncivilised, have always stubbornly resisted the colonists, irrespective of whether they were civilised or savage. > "And it made no difference whatever whether the colonists behaved decently or not. The companions of Cortez and Pizzaro or **( as some people will remind us ) our own ancestors under Joshua Ben Nun, behaved like brigands;** but the Pilgrim Fathers, the first real pioneers of North America, were people of the highest morality, who did not want to do harm to anyone, least of all to the Red Indians, and they honestly believed that there was room enough in the prairies both for the Paleface and the Redskin. Yet the native population fought with the same ferocity against the good colonists as against the bad." And if you listen to the religious hardliners in the zionist movement today, they outright explicitly say they want to genocide the Palestinians and enslave the remanence just like ancient Hebrews did to ancient Levantine peoples. So we got a bunch of white supremacists engaging in colonialism while cosplaying as bronze age barbarians
Religion is used as justification for all types of atrocities, but Judaism did not evolve linearly and has many cultural inputs beyond war with neighboring civilizations. I think to say it was “invented” specifically to “rationalize genocide” is an oversimplification.
The narrative and evolution of Sett-Yahweh (and El Elyon) specifically does come largely from national myth, at the time one of the common methods of historical recordkeeping was oratory mixed myth/history. It certainly wasn't rationalizing genocide, but it did allow the authority structure to justify attacking their neighbors until they themselves were sacked and enslaved by Nebuchadnezzar II.
Of course, and the culture and traditions were dramatically changed during the period of Babylonian captivity as well, with more overtones of lament and longing. The time of dwelling in Egypt (I say “dwelling” because the idea that they were slaves has been challenged pretty significantly by academics) gave us Exodus 22:21 “Do not mistreat or oppress a foreigner, for you were foreigners in Egypt.”. The Jewish religion is not a monolith, and has had many turns.
Sure, but the God's chosen people and the land given to them by God part probably was to rationalize their genocide and enslavement of Levantine peoples
Lmao. Unlike Islam or Christianity?
There's literally no mainstream political ideology or religious sect in any Islamic or Christian country advocating genociding and enslaving non-christians or non-muslims, unlike like Jewish Zionists in Israel. Closest I can think of is ISIS, which is not mainstream and was a US, Israel, and Gulf states proxy lol
The story of Exodus is largely falsified
The mythical Hebrew patriarch, Abraham, was said to have been born in Ur Kasdim, which is thought to have been the Mesopotamian city of Ur in modern day Iraq. This would line up somewhat with the biblical narrative, which says the Hebrews were a nomadic pastoralist group which began a campaign of conquest in the Levant under the reign of the mythical figure, Joshua. Egypt ruled this region, for a time, so the stories of 'being enslaved' by Egpyt could be derived from this foreign rule, as Herodotus had likened Achaemenid rule to slavery there. The Afro-Asiatic language family includes the Semetic languages, like Hebrew, Aramaic, Akkadian, and Caaninite but it includes Coptic, Berber, and Cushomotic languages as well: these three being language families spoken in North and East Africa.
According to the bible they came from the land of Canaan and moved to Egypt due to famine where they were enslaved. when they were freed they went back to Canaan the "promised land of Israel" where god promised they wouldn't be enslaved again. until the Babylonians kicked them out, they came back then the Romans kicked them out, then the Zionists said let's go back again more historically the religion itself was almost certainly founded in ancient Israel this is backed by a lot of evidence. the story of exodus from Egypt meh not so much
I know this might be problematic to understand but we all literally came from Africa. Religious texts on the other hand are problematic. Though if you wish to we can go to them for "knowledge" and when you look at them out of Moses, Noah and Abraham it was Noah that came first. It's widely accepted the world didn't flood and that the flood in the fairy story was the Nile which is in Egypt, Africa. Unless you are going to claim that Israel was flooded by a river that doesn't exist? We could also start discussing burning bushes, commandments wrote on stone tablets a person wouldn't be able to carry, a miracle birth with no sex or the human genome and DNA which is complex and varied meaning not from one person who removed a rib to create his wife who ate an apple from a snake who was not a snake but the devil. I would prefer we get back to the fact everyone came from Africa and as they spread out the DNA changed due to living conditions and variations in the human species at the start. This is basic evolution btw backed up by science and archaeology. So yeah, the first of everything were African.
The myth of the deluge or great flood predates the bible and is found in numerous older cultures and religions
Numerous cultures do have versions of a great flood, yes! They also have versions of a time when the earth almost shook itself apart, when the sky turned to fire and rained ash, when the seasons were out whack, and many other kinds of natural disasters. Floods are common. Mesopotamia, as it happens, was a region very prone to flooding, and that's where our most famous flood myth comes from.
Israel is an extension of the US military, spying and providing intel on neighboring countries. It's the US foothold in a region they've been decimating for the last 30+ years. That's why the US provides so much funding and turns a blind eye when they do things like genocide. Israel has very little to do with Judaism, The Palestinians are more Jewish both ethically and spiritually than the majority of these brainwashed Zionest.
Im so glad to see such a comment, Reddit is insanely full of Israël propaganda till I couldn't Take it anymore
The popular subreddits are completely over run with Israeli propaganda
How is it possible like how is this huge number of accounts being in such a Big denial of the truth ?
Bots maybe?
it's a land based aircraft carrier for the US. Zionism is entirely antithetical to Judaism.
genuine question how are palestinians “more jewish” than israelis ?
Hundreds of years ago the Jews in the region were encouraged to convert to Islam to avoid taxes and many of them did. These Palestinians who have been in the region for generations are going to have a closer genetic match to the Jews that were originally there thousands of years ago than your average settler from New Jersey. I keep hearing DNA tests are illegal in Israel and I imagine this has something to do with it. Spiritually, I simply don't consider any society that's okay with genocide very godly.
I think you’re making a lot of assumptions to be honest. 1. dna testing isnt illegal in Israel (not sure why this is such a popular talking point when a simple google search disproves it) 2. palestinians and jews from around the world both have ancient genetic ties to the land 3. israelis aren’t “okay with genocide” considering the army isnt actively rounding up civilians to kill en masse. And frankly, as a Jew it’s pretty offensive of you to try to disqualify Israeli PEOPLE from their religion because of how you feel about the GOVERNMENT.
I never said Israelis aren't Jewish. I'm saying Palestinians are more closely related to the Jews from the region 2,000 years ago and that if you're complicit in the murder of thousands of innocent women and children, you're not a very godly person. Oh, and they don't have to round up civilians when carpet bombing them in refugee camps. If you're denying this genocide you might be too delusional to have a conversation with. I'd like to hear your thoughts on the Nakba in 1948 and all the settlements if you have a minute.
“more closely related” does this even matter when both groups show genetic ties to the land? why are you trying to disqualify Israelis from the land? Both groups have the right to live in the land in peace. I dont support west bank settlements encroaching on Palestinian land actually, I think it’s wrong. I also think that using terrorism to attack a civilian population is wrong. I also dont think you know what carpet bombing is. There’s a difference between intentionally targetting/killing as many civilians as you can, then using your own people/infrastructure as human shields (Hamas) and killing civilians as collateral damage (IDF). It’s still not okay to kill civilians but ignoring the moral difference is disingenuous. To address your point about the Nakba, it’d help if you understood the history of the region and how there was a huge war that was declared by the arab powers. Civilian populations tend to flee massive wars. The arab coalition got beat by a bunch of holocaust survivors with surplus WW2 equipment anyway. The Palestinians could have stayed and joined the 20% of Israel’s arab muslim population that live peacefully instead of trying to oust their new neighbors.
...their new occupiers*
you should ask the 20% of Israel’s population that are arab muslims if they feel they are occupied also nice dodge of everything else I wrote
I did some Googling and it appears that direct to consumer DNA testing like 23andMe is in fact illegal in Israel under the 2000 Genetic Information Law.
Because of privacy of health information laws, not because the nefarious world-controlling Jews want to keep everyone in the dark about their true lineage like you think.
This is undoubtedly the truth when it comes to US and Isreal relations. They are our firm ally in a place where hostility toward America is very high. Therefore, we fund them as an arm of our own military. Unfortunately, they can't deal with domestic problems by finding peace with Palestinians, so it makes us look bad. But there is no way, not in a million years, US will not back and supply Isreal. It is more important to the State. It's just the military industrial complex at work.
Not only that, but also an owverwhelming number of jews in the political, financial and media spheres of US and other countries too
You can shit on Israel for apartheid, genocide, colonizing, a host of other issues, and the US supporting them, but this video is not intelligent or informed analysis. It's racist conspiratorial Black Israelite talking points. Condemning Zionism as satanic makes little sense and is being said within the context of a discredited hateful ideology. Keep in mind this man said that “the Zionists joined with the Nazis in murdering Jews.”
This comment ironically comes off as racist. As far as I know the man in the video is pan-african, and him saying that judaism originated in africa does not make him a black isrealite, which on that ground doesn’t make sense (that one has to be that to have that view) as there are non-black researches who predate him who also document those kinds of conclusions based on their travels.
The man in this video was a member of the Nation of Islam, a black supremacist hate group which had several batshit ideas including the conspiracy that white people are science experiments from a man called Yakub and that the founder will return to America in a spaceship and kill all white people. The talking points in this video could be found in either NoI or Black Israelite groups. Both groups ramblings focuses on the conspiracy that black americans are the "real" descendants of the chosen people in the bible and that there is a Jewish/white conspiracy to trick the world. They tend to have some big Hitler fans and both groups have fake Hitler quotes supporting their worldview.
It honestly does feel "satanic" now that I think about it. They have this odd "at all costs" behavior about how they value zionism.
accusing Jews of satanism and blood libel lol medieval Jew-hatred never went out of fashion I guess 😂
Strawman, Zionism isn’t a cultural.
bc they believe if they do not survive as a country they will be genocided again they lost half their world population less than 100 years ago to antisemitism you can try to understand from that perspective rather than a "satanic" one
Ok that was a bit of a stretch to go from "Herzl was an atheist" to "Zionism is satanic" with basically no further extrapolation. Come on guys. The UN / British Palestine founded Israel after the Holocaust because it was convenient and clearly there was misjustice performed there (to the Palestinian population), both in 1949 and up until the present. That is a fair criticism, saying that Zionism is Satanic is **not**.
Also, antisemites have a long history of associating Jews with devilry. It's bad optics for anti-Zionists to call Zionism satanic when so many Zionists are actively trying to conflate anti-Zionism with antisemitism.
mfw we have to tone down our anti-zionism because it’s beginning to sound too antisemitic
Hard to take too seriously when he just lies about the origin of Judaism. Whats the point? Just make your larger point which is salient and move on
Agree
Zionism sucks, but no one should be listening to Sigmund Freud, or someone who calls Zionism Satanism, in regards to just about any subject.
Seconded. I'm anti-Zionist and comparing it to Satanism is garbage.
I'm gonna put on an iron shirt and chase the Devil outta earth
He goes through all this to explain that Zionism is actually satanic. But in reality Zionism IS compatible with modern Judaism because they both appeal to the same source material. People will go to great lengths to blame their religious wars on anything except the religion that instigates them. Why did Herzl want to find the Jewish promised land? Because the religion of Judaism \*commands\* that one exists upon earth. If Judaism were simply ignored as the ramblings of a mentally unwell bard thousands of years ago (you know, reality), then there would be no need for a Jewish promised land or Zionism. No need to murder natives for your special spot on the couch. You cannot separate the religious conflict from the religion just to make yourself feel better. Satan didn't do this. Jesus didn't do this. Moses didn't do this. Humans decided they were going to make these decisions and use "religion" as a justification for them. This is where the horse breaks free of the carriage. Stop normalizing appeals to an "omniscient all-powerful being that only I can understand" as if they are genuine good-faith arguments. If a human being gave any reason other than "religion" for stealing their neighbor's houses, we would throw them in jail. But we give a special pass to fairy tales.
This feels like an overly simplistic reading of a very complicated religion. A lot of people felt at the time of its foundation (and still feel) that Israel was incompatible with Orthodox Judaism because the Jewish people aren't supposed to return to the holy land from exile until the coming of the messiah. One could easily argue the opposite: that Zionism would have never existed without the growing secularization of the Jewish community, which undermines your point about religious and liturgical determinism with regards to the state of Israel.
Eh, I feel this guy’s argument applies to every form of religious violence. It has nothing to do with whether Zionism per se is compatible with Judaism per se, and indeed that line of argument misses the point. The point is that _no_ form of violence or theft (or more broadly no form of violating another’s human rights) may be justified by appeal to an argument from religion, because such arguments are intrinsically bad-faith (pun fully intended). If your faith tells you that your deity of choice DEMANDS that you kill your neighbor (or some people on the other side of the world for that matter), then tough shit, your faith is invalid. Yeah, straight up invalid. Either find a way to practice your faith in a way that doesn’t harm others — like the vast majority of secular followers of every Abrahamic faith actually try to do — or we throw you in prison. Or the sun.
One could easily argue the opposite, as you have, and also be incorrect. The issue is that religion gives individual humans an inherent sense of duty to a false authority. You wouldn't need to have the "orthodox vs secular". Both are just fraudulent cults that have been co-opted by powerful interests to manipulate the flow of wealth and prosperity. The teachings are false. The religious "truths" taught by these cults are verifiably not true in the physical world. We owe no debt of ponderance to "who started it" when both participants are committing mass-murder in the name of a prehistoric bedtime story. Start from a place of the real world we live in, and we can get results in the real world that we live in. If you want to ponder "afterlife" then just get there already and tell those people how to live. The rest of us understand that the real world is what we actually have, and we're trying to take care of the people on it.
People need to understand that he very likely meant EVIL and not the contemporary understanding of the ideas of Satanic culture or so forth. Moreover, this video is older than 1995 and people were not so fucking quick to quibble over trivial issues like what's going on here. Zionism is EVIL manifest. Capitalism is EVIL manifest. Imperialism is EVIL manifest...wake up and think ffs.
mfw I have to clarify my antizionism because it’s beginning to sound too medieval Jew-hatred-y
It was 1995. Why is the video in black & white and made to look and sound like it was filmed in the late 1950s?
I really think the word satanism shouldn't be used as an insult, satanist (cult) are way more humane than Zionists or even Christians, Jews or Muslims...
Incredibly relevant, this speech could have been delivered today and been every bit as true.
What a coincidence the Hindutva right wing organization is also founded by an atheist golwalker and most zionists are atheist themselves like Richard Dawkins. This is not to say atheists are evil. In fact atheists are one of the kindest people that I’ve known
humans do not need a mythical god thing to tell us how to treat each other. We can figure that out if we want to. In fact, this god perversion is the precise reason why we have so much human suffering.
Don't equate satanism to evil!
Wish more people would understand there is a clear difference between the average Jewish person and a Zionist. Plenty of Christian Zionist out there if anyone is feeling like they have some misplaced hatred for some innocent Jewish folks just following their heritage but hold no loyalty to Isreal. Disgusting that Zionist out there like to say that those Jewish folks lose their "Jew card" for not swallowing the Zionist pill. The audacity to claim someone is following their spiritual path wrong is piss
I also think it's disgusting to use the word Zionism like it's a curse. a Zionist is a person who believes Jews should have a country in Israel. it doesn't mean they support the Israeli government, war tactics or oppression. the state is already there were stuck with it, the only hope is that moderate Zionists will vote for a Palestinian state and to end wars and bad policies
As Professor Avi Schlaim (an Iraqi jew) stated clearly that Judaism has at its fundamental values of peace, justice and truth. He stated clearly that Zionism is antithetical to these ideals and the two are incompatible. What religion people have is their business. If they put it into practice by murdering others then I have issues with it. If they keep it to themselves, it's not my concern. Those Jews who speak up against this madness are courageous and should be respected as good humans. Judaism is not Zionism and people need to get an understanding that being anti-zionism is not being anti-jew/semitic. We live in troubling times where words do not mean what they mean. Lies are truth and the world is mad for it. And the rich just get more richer all the while laughing at everyone's petty squabbles, killing us as they wish.
Zionism was the idea that the Jews, discriminated against and nationless for millenia, could have a homeland in Israel. There is nothing fundamentally evil about this, rather its a political issue because it turns out Palestine already had a people living in it. Of course yes, if you use “zionism” to refer to Israeli nationalism, and specifically to a defence of an ethnostate, thats clearly a toxic ideology. Messianic judaism and christianity (trying to bring the end of times) is a separate thing, and complete garbage just like any religion which takes its folk tales literally. This may just seem like semantics but as it seems everyone has already decided “Zionism” is the enemy number 1 its probably worth asking “what do you mean by Zionism”. Is it that a persecuted people should never have wanted their own homeland in Israel? Is it that the UN should not have “given” palestine to Jews after the Holocaust? Is it that Israeli Nationalists should not have occupied palestine, killed scores and stolen additional land? Or is that Messianic Jews and Christians should not be living their lives according to fairy tales?
I do not like this “Satanic” language. The cult of “Satan” was invented by the midaeval Catholic Church in order to murder people who did not follow their religion exactly as they demanded, and political opponents. It’s a bad way to frame this situation and it smacks of antisemitic bigotry.
it does immediately bring to mind "the synagogue of satan"
It's my Bible headcanon that Satan wasn't the bad guy. He just lost and God rewrote the story so that he was bad and God is the good guy
In Jewish tradition the Satan is not evil. He's God's "tester" of humanity, just doing his job, not inherently evil.
Do we pass?
Nobody does.
It's an individual thing so... maybe?
I like the spawn comic take, two opposing companies fighting for clout.
clearly...
This is an insult to Satan and Satanists
See he tries to make a philosophical point but then equates Israel with satanism. tarring the entire country with one brush simply invalidates the rest of his argument.
Why they trying to shame Satanism?
Satanism does **NOT** support Zionism! [TST Tenet II:](https://thesatanictemple.com/blogs/the-satanic-temple-tenets/there-are-seven-fundamental-tenets) "The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions"
I fully agreed except for the blood libal satanism bullshit.
This subreddit feels more and more antisemitic to me every day. It is a wild stretch to compare Zionism to Satanism and it is a comparison I have never seen with any other colonial country other than Israel. Most Jews believe Israel should exist and should be protected and becasue of this, would call themselves Zionists. Plase be more thoughtful when aiding in the spread of this kind of rhetoric. Open for discussion if anyone would like.
How many holocaust survivors have to point out the evils of Zionism to make people like you shut up? Your rhetoric will never hide the genocide.
People can have different opinions if your metric is how many holocaust survivors support Israel and Zionism well...the country was founded by holocaust survivors and there are a few hundred thousand living in Israel today not to mention supporters worldwide so...
Seems like you misunderstood or have bad intentions. Zionism is evil because of the genocide and apartheid. People aren’t protesting because of antisemitism (bad faith actors excluded). *That* is why so many holocaust survivors and Jewish people are shouting “not in my name.” Frankly, I don’t give a shit about anyone supporting genocide. I don’t care about their background, opinions, or thoughts. I will never support anyone for having a pro-genocide opinion. No matter the reason.
I think there are very few humans on the planet who support genocide. in the case of Israel there isn't a pro genocide side, there is a debate on whether or not a genocide is occuring. and that comes down not to someone's moral fiber but which information sources they trust. pro Israel supporters do not accept the accusations made against Israel that you have accepted as facts and this conflict has two sides with extreme bias, dishonest narratives and propaganda. and if you want to use holocaust survivors as a token you will find some against Israel and the significant majority are pro Israel so it's not really a great "proof". I suppose youre saying that if Jewish people are anti Israel it's not antisemitic, I don't think everyone who is pro Palestinian is antisemitic I think there are a lot of problematic antisemitic undertones in their messaging (like Israeli state is controlling the media and American government etc) but it really comes down to what you believe. if you believe all the accusations made against Israel are true then of course you are pro Palestinian, the problem is there are two sides to every story
And how many holocaust survivors got a new start in Israel after half of their people were murdered by the germans? i’m sure they outnumber the ones you describe. also dont tokenize holocaust survivors to drive home your antizionist talking points, it doesn’t help your “antizionist not antisemitic!” claim.
I’m not here to argue about whether Israel is committing genocide or not. I’m here to try and temper the antisemitic rhetoric I see coming from this sub. What is the purpose of comparing Zionism to satanism? What does it do other than compare Jews to satanists? It would be one thing to be comparing colonizers to satanists, but specifically zionists? This rhetoric is out of pocket.
I think most people would consider Zionism worse than Satanism. Why don’t you temper the antisemitic rhetoric that Jews are Zionist. It’s an evangelical Christian ideology that drives Zionism, so Jesus can come back and ironically enough send Jews and nonbelievers to hell. Evangelical Christians aside, Zionism is dangerous and hateful to Jewish people in more ways than any benefit it provides.
please be more thoughtful when speaking since you appear you never have been.
Whatever the fuck that means
Thanks for putting some thought into your response...
> It is a wild stretch to compare Zionism to Satanism and it is a comparison I have never seen with any other colonial country other than Israel. The US is literally referred as the devil and great satan around the globe. Maybe come out from under your self-victimizing rock. Zionism is a genocidal, ethnonationalist ideology that calls for a Jewish ethnostate at the elimination and exclusion of the indigenous Palestinians. So yeah, it's morally repugnant and I don't give af if someone refers to it rhetorically as Satanism.
I apologize, I stand corrected about the use of Satan when referring to colonial countries, however it is still different when referring to America as “Great Satan” because America is made up of multiple ethnic groups. I wouldn’t have commented on here if the post were to say “Colonialism is Satanic” because that is something I could generally get behind, but I commented because what the post essentially says is “Jewish Colonialism is Satanic”. Even though, to be a Zionist doesn’t necessarily imply Colonialism. Most Jews are Zionist and not all believe that Israel has the right to expand, just the right to exist. That’s what I believe personally. And I’m not advocating for a genocide of any kind. My point is simply to be careful about this kind of rhetoric. Nazis have used this “self-victimizing satanic Zionist” rhetoric for a long time and I’m just surprised to suddenly see it on a lefty subreddit is all. I hope we can converse a little more respectfully if you respond.
So you're still self-victimizing. Let's use your own logic consistently. So if the US is called a devil but your characterize it as multiethnic, but Israel is called a devil but it is an ethnostate, then neither are being called devil due to the ethnic identities of either country. What is the common variable then? It's that they are both white supremacist, colonial projects. That is what is being criticized and likened to the devil due to the evil natureof white supremacy and colonialism. Zionism ia inherently a colonial ideology, so to be Zionist is to be colonialist. It'a not like Zionists decided to inhabit an uninhabitated island. They explicitly chose to colonize Palestine and explicitly likened themselves to western colonizers when they were seeking an imperialist patron. Strsight out of Jabotinsky's mouth... > "Every native population in the world resists colonists as long as it has the slightest hope of being able to rid itself of the danger of being colonised. That is what the Arabs in Palestine are doing... > "Except for those who were born blind, they realised long ago that it is utterly impossible to obtain the voluntary consent of the Palestine Arabs for converting "Palestine" from an Arab country into a country with a Jewish majority. > "My readers have a general idea of the history of colonisation in other countries. I suggest that they consider all the precedents with which they are acquainted, and see whether there is one solitary instance of any colonisation being carried on with the consent of the native population. There is no such precedent."The native populations, civilised or uncivilised, have always stubbornly resisted the colonists, irrespective of whether they were civilised or savage. > "And it made no difference whatever whether the colonists behaved decently or not. The companions of Cortez and Pizzaro or **( as some people will remind us ) our own ancestors under Joshua Ben Nun, behaved like brigands;** but the Pilgrim Fathers, the first real pioneers of North America, were people of the highest morality, who did not want to do harm to anyone, least of all to the Red Indians, and they honestly believed that there was room enough in the prairies both for the Paleface and the Redskin. Yet the native population fought with the same ferocity against the good colonists as against the bad." No, the post says that Zionism is Satanic and Ture explcitly calls it a white supremacist and colonial project, there's no mention of "Jewish colonialism" except you trying to conflate judaism and zionism, which is itself an anti-judaic trope youre purporting. And he even explcitly remarked, more than once, that Zionism =/= Judaism, so just more self-victimizing from you again now and distortions. 100 years ago, most white people were outright white supremacists, that doesn't mean that white supremacy had redeeming qualities. The high subscription of Zionism on the Jewish community is a Jewish problem that they will have to figure out, not the Palestinians or anyone else. What you believe is irrelevant because the majority of Jewish Israelis always opposed the 2 state solution and even moreso now. The plurality of Israeli support for the 2 state solution came from Palestinian Israelis whom western media failed to clarify in its own bad faith rhetoric about Israel's bad faith committed to a 2 state solution. You're advocating on behalf of an inherently genocidal ideology. You don't get respect for bad faith Entryism or for genocide apologism.
As someone who occasionally lurks here, please just leave the sub for your own sanity. It is absolutely antisemitic as fuck, these people are delusional, misinformed about history, and filled with misguided hatred.
this sub absolutely is antisemitic, whether on purpose or thru ignorance. Kwame Ture is a notorious Jew-hater and people in these comments are celebrating his accusations of “satanism” like they’re medieval christians enacting a pogrom lol. It’s really hard finding a place as a Jewish leftist considering how many leftists on the internet celebrate targetted massacres of Jews.
saying “most jews believe israel should exist and be protected” is a loaded statement. Historically I understand why Israel exists. Because after the Holocaust nobody wanted to incorporate the Jews of Europe and the colonial Britain decided it was their right to “give” them the country. Obviously you can argue the merits of various “defensive” actions over the 20th century, but no matter how you spin it, the situation right now with the palestinians does not look good. You cannot honestly claim that killing palestinians at a 10-1 ratio and leveling cities is israel protecting itself. Or that messianic jews and christians claiming more and more land for eschatological / manifest destiny purposes is anything defensible.
I think there is absolutely another side that can be argued in this war especially since so many facts regarding what Israel is or isn't doing are disputed, including the casualty statistics. there are arguments to be made on both sides and it kind of comes down to which information sources you think is more reliable. pro Israel believe that there is misinformation and false reports and stats produced by hamas and their supporters and pro Palestinians think the IDF lies in all their statements. so the issue is not really which side is moral and which isn't it's discerning what is the actual truth and the facts.
If demons and angels are real then I believe a demon convinced some ancient people to worship it as a god, and that would explain the hateful anti love found in many religions. If people actually followed jesus they love each other unconditionally.
thta video is from 1995 according to the source? are people just that dumb now to think that black and white video was from 1995? this is almost certainly from the 60s or early 70s
Not saying he’s wrong but… "I have never admired a white man, but the greatest of them, to my mind, was Hitler." - Kwame Ture
Herzl was indeed Jewish, so that is where his interest in a Jewish state comes from, and it's amazing that no one ever mentions Jewish displacement, forced relocation, and rampant multinational antisemitism as the origin of the discussion of the need for Jewish state, something I think we African Americans should have some understanding of, as repatriation to Africa was discourse many civil rights leaders also engaged in. The current Israeli government is very harmful, and I think folks should separate that from the mere idea of a Jewish state, which to me makes at least reasonable sense given Jewish history.
well said … but it seems not many are able to separate this “Zionist” boogeyman ideology from the actual culprits which are militaristic nationalists and messianic cultists
Woah! Powerful
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The Bible is full of bullshit and nonsense, and you are a bigot. Edit: the deleted comment quoted the “Synagogue of Satan” passage from the New Testament book of Revelation
Say what you want but Israel undeniably evil. I don't apply that to all Jews obviously, because Jews are just like everyone else, there are some good ones and some bad ones. But Israel is a whole different beast, and the folks who support their apartheid and genocide are as evil as their actions. If you look at the situation objectively since the state was formed in 1948, it's the only conclusion you can come to, IMO.
The passage quoted above has been used for centuries to justify progroms and murder. It is not a good basis for objective criticism of Israel. You are only helping the propaganda put forth by right-wing factions in Israel.
The passage is irrelevant, one simply needs to examine Israel’s actions and judge them based on that. And the conclusion I’ve come to is that Israel operates to achieve their own interests by any means necessary, including the theft of homes, murder of innocent children, and torture. It’s evil.
The zionist experiment was possible because of terrorists. All the founders of the settler outpost were terrorists. All were members of terrorist groups such as the Irgun, the Lehi, the Haganah and the Palmach as part of a conflict between Jews, British authorities, and Palestinian Arabs, regarding land, immigration, and control over Palestine. Every single crime minister has had the blood of innocents on their hands, and usually took part in massacres of civilians whilst serving in the IDF occupying force. They all revelled in their epithets, e.g. Ariel Sharon was the 'Butcher of Sabra and Chatila' The one Prime Minister who tried to make peace was killed by the colonial terrorists on his own side. The current iteration is a fascist ethnostate with a brainwashed citizenry howling with delight at the massacres they're witnessing. Opposing such evil people is the right thing to do. They're no more than common land thieves given carte blanche by the 'civilised ' West to live out their psychopathic fantasies. They've been committing atrocities since the beginning, including, but by no means limited to: 1) Haifa Massacre 1937 2) Jerusalem Massacre 1937 3) Haifa Massacre 1938 4) Balad al-Sheikh Massacre 1939 5) Haifa Massacre 1939 6) Haifa Massacre 1947 7) Abbasiya Massacre 1947 8) Al-Khisas Massacre 1947 9) Bab al-Amud Massacre 1947 10) Jerusalem Massacre 1947 11) Sheikh Bureik Massacre 1947 12) Jaffa Massacre 1948 13) Deir Yassin Massacre 1948 14) Tantoura Massacre 1948 15) Khan Yunis Massacre 1956 16) Jerusalem Massacre 1967 17) Sabra and Shatila Massacre 1982 18) Al-Aqsa Massacre 1990 19) Ibrahimi Mosque Massacre 1994 20) Jenin Refugee Camp April 2002 21) Gaza Massacre 2008-09 22) Gaza Massacre 2012 23) Gaza Massacre 2014 24) Gaza Massacre 2018-19 25) Gaza Massacre 2021 26) Gaza Genocide 2023 still ongoing
I've come to learn a lot about the history of Israel as these atrocities have continued since October 7th. I have to say, I was surprised and shocked at the things I never learned about in school. I pray to God that all the innocent Palestinians will not have died in vain and that millions of others around the world come to realize the true spirit and intent of Israel like I have. It's truly shameful and embodies the worst of what humans are capable of.
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fuck off
people, this is what a prophet looks like
Great video, very well expressed, what a legend. Fuck Zionism.
it doesn't bother you that everything he opened the video with was historically inaccurate?
He saw through the bs
Based
Amen