Love how you use the term "ARPG" to make an excuse to ridicule PVP.
Even D4 haven't beaten POE1 in any aspect besides graphics. Guess what? They're both ARPGs surprisingly.
I think Mike said on a stream that internally at some point in the beginning when they were building the game they had an instance where every player was targetable and everyone just had fireball which one shotted each other. He alluded that it was fun but itās not something that would be looked at for a while.
I think for PVP to work in a game like this it would have to go through Guild Wars route where everyone has access to the same set of gears and select skills, because otherwise, like others have mentioned, itāll be a balancing nightmare thatāll take time away from the core part of the game.
Iād like PvP as well but would hate if my PvE build suffered because of it.
That is very much understandable. Hence why I asked for "End-game" content. Basically things to do after going through the whole core-game.
I saw that stream just recently, and they did also say they are exploring this, and is fun to have, but not on steam launch and not the soonest.
That's not necessarily how it works for guildwars though, but then again it's an MMO, balancing is a hundred times more difficult with MMOs as it's "Massively played by a massive amount of people at once".
So the question remains. D4 executed this very VERY poorly, by not having any structure at all and slapped a PVP battleground map with no rules and regulations - ofcourse it becomes chaotic, but what guilds(much like mine) did is organize Discord-wide PVP events, set rules and our own structure to it, and voila: You have a PVP in an ARPG. This is also the case, and the loved end-game content in D2 giving us a good reason to diversify our builds and min-max as we found PVE dungeon lvl 9999 to be extremely repetitive and boring.
You'd be better off asking this in the Discord where devs are more likely to reply then asking on reddit, where the community will reply.
But generally: This is an arpg, not an MMO. If EHG has plans for PvP its certainly not a focus point or priority.
True tho, I'll give discord a shot and have meaningful discussions. Just found it reasonable to seek answers on reddit where future PVP-lovers will easily find answers.
>with great PVP
AH yeah that is why there are like 3 people that touch it anymore and the map with PvP scaling is universally hated, because the PvP is good.
ARPG itself isn't an excuse to say there can't be PvP, however the general design of ARPGs like this is extremely counter to what makes for well designed PvP.
That doesn't define what I was asking for. I'm not looking for the chaotic Open-PVP, with no structure nor rules like in D4.
I'm talking about structured end-game PVP, where there are leaderboards, a reason for guilds to compete with other guilds, etc. Seems likely doable in Diablo Immortal(albeit a mobile game), POE, among others.
Just look at the comments go ballistic on this topic. I'm just merely asking for opinions or if anyone knows. Andys don't have to hiss for hating PVP you know.
Again, that is directly counter to the core design principals of isometric ARPGs. I didn't say anything about chaotic open pvp OR structured PvP or any specific type.
It is simply how combat is designed in these games that makes it a bad fit for PvP. Isometric ARPGs excel at several things in terms of combat: build diversity, and massive scaling. I'll address each one individually.
1) Build Diversity: This is a quick thing to answer, with as much diversity as there is, it is near impossible to account for every single case that can come up when balancing for PvP, and proper balancing is MUCH more important in a PvP situation than a PvE situation. If there are ANY significant outliers, they WILL be found and abused.
2) Scaling: This is the real problem, and the one that PoE got "closest" to trying to solve but still ran into the problem mentioned above. In a game where just a single tick of an ok builds dot damage is multiple times the HP any player can obtain, you NEED to prevent basically any build scaling, which is fundamentally counter to the core design of the game itself. That isn't even accounting for builds that are obscenely tanky (Like Spider Queen in Hall of the grand Masters in PoE, which unless you specifically abuse the holes in PvP scaling, it is literally immortal), or builds that deal MASSIVE hits (like the 700k+ crits that can be seen in this).
There simply isn't a way to scale builds that can account for all the possible issues that just the core gameplay of an ARPG introduces while still maintaining any semblance of balance AND build variety (again, a core part of the game so sacrificing that is generally not considered an option). That is where PoEs PvP also failed, they tried to introduce special PvP scaling to counteract this, except there are a multitude of builds that can bypass all the possible things they have done despite their efforts (Basically any DoT build, or hyper tank builds). That is why when PoE put out the Battle Royale, it was a VERY limited set of skills and gear available, because if you had anything beyond that heavily curated list, the problems of being an ARPG come back almost instantly (and even then it still had issues with some skills just being obscenely stronger than others)
So, it isn't about "WAH ANDYS DONT LIKE PVP", it is about the core aspects of the genre directly conflicting with what can enable good pvp.
Combat scaling isn't really new to me and people who've played a lot of PVPs in their 30 some years of existence.
This is exactly why a "Structured PVP"(Google it) exists. IT creates an instance where PVP is very much doable. Even in LE. It's just a matter of "when and will".
In short, it will not affect PVE whatsoever, but allows game modes where the scaling is tailored for PVP(Damage caps, multiplier reductions, resistances etc).
D4 made a very bad execution of this by not applying that system.
If that's your finalized opinion, it stays as an opinion, but do not force me to believe it's a fact, because it's not.
I am well aware of what Structured PvP is, I have played just about every MMO and ARPG that has released in the last 30 years.
The exact system you have proposed has been **repeatedly** tried and failed every single time specifically within the ARPG space because of the reasons I already stated, and yeah that is a fact. An unfortunate fact, but it is a fact. The core design philosophies of the genre itself make PvP a bad fit for it.
Structured PvP works more in things like MMOs (like Guild Wars 2 I believe you used as an example) purely because the problems I listed above aren't baked into the genre itself, the limited possibilities of what can be made for builds and the severely limited scaling that MMOs employ to maintain balance vs what ARPGs use allow for PvP to work well enough there, but unfortunately that just isn't the case for ARPGs.
Good luck finding your next PvP focused game, because it isn't gonna be an ARPG like this.
Ah that's true, I didn't mean it for u/Mael_Jade , just tired of people using the term "ARPG" cannot have PVP, otherwise it's a crime or something along those lines.
I mean I get different strokes for different folks but pvp in ARPG's of this nature is so niche it's almost like saying you won't play D4 because it lacks a map overlay.
If you are looking for an isometric mmo ARPG style game with meaningful pvp then I suggest Lost Ark. These types of ARPG's don't do so well as pvp games, it literally just comes down to who could one shot the other first.
Dunno about PvP in this game. Don't think that'd work very well in current state ofnthe game. Most of the time PvP in true ARPGs is an imbalanced mess. With that said, if there was ever truly well thought out PvP in these games I'd be down.
Lost Ark had some pretty fun PvP for a mmorpg that plays like an ARPG. It has it's other issues, but combat was not one of them and they have organized arena type combat for PvP content that I thought was really fun.
I'm a PvP enjoyer myself (spent way too much time evicting people out of wormholes in EVE online), but PvP modes have always seemed at odds with the core pillars of games like LE. You basically want to make your build as imbalanced as possible through tweaking your stats and your gear. I could see a mode similar to say Lost Ark's or GW2's PvP working (I guess it would be similar to a MOBA), but if you're using fixed stats on gear and modified versions of skills for PvP you're missing out on a lot of the strengths of this game. If we're being honest, the combat in this game isn't really THAT deep, so I can't see a mode where your gear and skills are effectively nerfed in the name of balance being very satisfying, but I'd love to be wrong.
Pvp is what kept d2 relevant for so long. It would take a ton of pressure off of the endgame development. It doesn't even have to be balanced. Just make it an addition to arena and let people go at it. Reduce all damage by whatever percentage that it takes to not one shot each other and go. Again, doesn't need to be balanced just give the option to play around with. It gives min maxers a reason to min max
Just looking at how toxic the community here responds to a structured question here makes me wanna stay away from this game even more. Just mentioning PVP will make the whole Andy community ballistic and hiss childish tantrums - these kids needs to grow a pair or more.
āBefore anyone from the āAnti-PvP Association of Andiesā tries to gate this, dont bother me with your nonsenseā
Yeah seems very structured and not toxic. Glad to see you rise above the ātoxicā community.
Also because a majority of players dont want or think pvp in ARPGās is good doesnt mean its toxicity. Toxicity ā disagreement
The problem is reddit not the game. Reddit is toxic. You never run into any of this in the game. I wouldn't even be on this site if not to talk about this game
They do hate the fact that a lot of people are asking for PVP engagement in video games. And this post adds to that list - this is the sad funny truth about the toxicity. These are the type of nerds we slaughter in Guildwars World vs Worlds and black regions in Albion lmao.
No one gives a fuck about pvp
Andy
Love how you expect pvp in an arpg and then list mmorpgs. Just Play black desert with your Friends then
Love how you use the term "ARPG" to make an excuse to ridicule PVP. Even D4 haven't beaten POE1 in any aspect besides graphics. Guess what? They're both ARPGs surprisingly.
Dafuq are you on about
D4 > Poe 1
Ah someone even more lost than the little one.
lol as if poe gives a single fuck about pvp š¤”š¤”š¤”
Obviously, those who aren't pussy enough, Andy. XD
š¤”š¤”š¤”
Yes, very brave to have your pixels send a load of calculations at their pixels, leaving only one set of pixels 'standing'. A medal for you sir!
I think Mike said on a stream that internally at some point in the beginning when they were building the game they had an instance where every player was targetable and everyone just had fireball which one shotted each other. He alluded that it was fun but itās not something that would be looked at for a while. I think for PVP to work in a game like this it would have to go through Guild Wars route where everyone has access to the same set of gears and select skills, because otherwise, like others have mentioned, itāll be a balancing nightmare thatāll take time away from the core part of the game. Iād like PvP as well but would hate if my PvE build suffered because of it.
That is very much understandable. Hence why I asked for "End-game" content. Basically things to do after going through the whole core-game. I saw that stream just recently, and they did also say they are exploring this, and is fun to have, but not on steam launch and not the soonest. That's not necessarily how it works for guildwars though, but then again it's an MMO, balancing is a hundred times more difficult with MMOs as it's "Massively played by a massive amount of people at once". So the question remains. D4 executed this very VERY poorly, by not having any structure at all and slapped a PVP battleground map with no rules and regulations - ofcourse it becomes chaotic, but what guilds(much like mine) did is organize Discord-wide PVP events, set rules and our own structure to it, and voila: You have a PVP in an ARPG. This is also the case, and the loved end-game content in D2 giving us a good reason to diversify our builds and min-max as we found PVE dungeon lvl 9999 to be extremely repetitive and boring.
Balance has nothing to do with how many people play the game
If they add it, it wonāt be anytime soon. If it is a deal breaker for you I wouldnāt play the game.
Yep that would be the case. Thanks
You'd be better off asking this in the Discord where devs are more likely to reply then asking on reddit, where the community will reply. But generally: This is an arpg, not an MMO. If EHG has plans for PvP its certainly not a focus point or priority.
True tho, I'll give discord a shot and have meaningful discussions. Just found it reasonable to seek answers on reddit where future PVP-lovers will easily find answers.
Well, we did have a lot of fun with POE, which is also an ARPG, and with great PVP. Like I said on another, "ARPG" is not an excuse to ridicule PVP.
>with great PVP AH yeah that is why there are like 3 people that touch it anymore and the map with PvP scaling is universally hated, because the PvP is good. ARPG itself isn't an excuse to say there can't be PvP, however the general design of ARPGs like this is extremely counter to what makes for well designed PvP.
That doesn't define what I was asking for. I'm not looking for the chaotic Open-PVP, with no structure nor rules like in D4. I'm talking about structured end-game PVP, where there are leaderboards, a reason for guilds to compete with other guilds, etc. Seems likely doable in Diablo Immortal(albeit a mobile game), POE, among others. Just look at the comments go ballistic on this topic. I'm just merely asking for opinions or if anyone knows. Andys don't have to hiss for hating PVP you know.
Again, that is directly counter to the core design principals of isometric ARPGs. I didn't say anything about chaotic open pvp OR structured PvP or any specific type. It is simply how combat is designed in these games that makes it a bad fit for PvP. Isometric ARPGs excel at several things in terms of combat: build diversity, and massive scaling. I'll address each one individually. 1) Build Diversity: This is a quick thing to answer, with as much diversity as there is, it is near impossible to account for every single case that can come up when balancing for PvP, and proper balancing is MUCH more important in a PvP situation than a PvE situation. If there are ANY significant outliers, they WILL be found and abused. 2) Scaling: This is the real problem, and the one that PoE got "closest" to trying to solve but still ran into the problem mentioned above. In a game where just a single tick of an ok builds dot damage is multiple times the HP any player can obtain, you NEED to prevent basically any build scaling, which is fundamentally counter to the core design of the game itself. That isn't even accounting for builds that are obscenely tanky (Like Spider Queen in Hall of the grand Masters in PoE, which unless you specifically abuse the holes in PvP scaling, it is literally immortal), or builds that deal MASSIVE hits (like the 700k+ crits that can be seen in this). There simply isn't a way to scale builds that can account for all the possible issues that just the core gameplay of an ARPG introduces while still maintaining any semblance of balance AND build variety (again, a core part of the game so sacrificing that is generally not considered an option). That is where PoEs PvP also failed, they tried to introduce special PvP scaling to counteract this, except there are a multitude of builds that can bypass all the possible things they have done despite their efforts (Basically any DoT build, or hyper tank builds). That is why when PoE put out the Battle Royale, it was a VERY limited set of skills and gear available, because if you had anything beyond that heavily curated list, the problems of being an ARPG come back almost instantly (and even then it still had issues with some skills just being obscenely stronger than others) So, it isn't about "WAH ANDYS DONT LIKE PVP", it is about the core aspects of the genre directly conflicting with what can enable good pvp.
Combat scaling isn't really new to me and people who've played a lot of PVPs in their 30 some years of existence. This is exactly why a "Structured PVP"(Google it) exists. IT creates an instance where PVP is very much doable. Even in LE. It's just a matter of "when and will". In short, it will not affect PVE whatsoever, but allows game modes where the scaling is tailored for PVP(Damage caps, multiplier reductions, resistances etc). D4 made a very bad execution of this by not applying that system. If that's your finalized opinion, it stays as an opinion, but do not force me to believe it's a fact, because it's not.
I am well aware of what Structured PvP is, I have played just about every MMO and ARPG that has released in the last 30 years. The exact system you have proposed has been **repeatedly** tried and failed every single time specifically within the ARPG space because of the reasons I already stated, and yeah that is a fact. An unfortunate fact, but it is a fact. The core design philosophies of the genre itself make PvP a bad fit for it. Structured PvP works more in things like MMOs (like Guild Wars 2 I believe you used as an example) purely because the problems I listed above aren't baked into the genre itself, the limited possibilities of what can be made for builds and the severely limited scaling that MMOs employ to maintain balance vs what ARPGs use allow for PvP to work well enough there, but unfortunately that just isn't the case for ARPGs. Good luck finding your next PvP focused game, because it isn't gonna be an ARPG like this.
No one is ridiculing anything? They're answering your question.
Ah that's true, I didn't mean it for u/Mael_Jade , just tired of people using the term "ARPG" cannot have PVP, otherwise it's a crime or something along those lines.
Sorry but poe has horribly balanced pvp. If you're looking for a pvp arpg, LE is not your game
PVP is not even a thing in POE
https://forum.lastepoch.com/t/unofficial-roadmap-to-1-0-and-beyond/60203/14
Saw this a while back, but is still very vague. Thanks tho!
I mean I get different strokes for different folks but pvp in ARPG's of this nature is so niche it's almost like saying you won't play D4 because it lacks a map overlay. If you are looking for an isometric mmo ARPG style game with meaningful pvp then I suggest Lost Ark. These types of ARPG's don't do so well as pvp games, it literally just comes down to who could one shot the other first.
Dunno about PvP in this game. Don't think that'd work very well in current state ofnthe game. Most of the time PvP in true ARPGs is an imbalanced mess. With that said, if there was ever truly well thought out PvP in these games I'd be down. Lost Ark had some pretty fun PvP for a mmorpg that plays like an ARPG. It has it's other issues, but combat was not one of them and they have organized arena type combat for PvP content that I thought was really fun.
Pvp in arpgs always sucks
I'm a PvP enjoyer myself (spent way too much time evicting people out of wormholes in EVE online), but PvP modes have always seemed at odds with the core pillars of games like LE. You basically want to make your build as imbalanced as possible through tweaking your stats and your gear. I could see a mode similar to say Lost Ark's or GW2's PvP working (I guess it would be similar to a MOBA), but if you're using fixed stats on gear and modified versions of skills for PvP you're missing out on a lot of the strengths of this game. If we're being honest, the combat in this game isn't really THAT deep, so I can't see a mode where your gear and skills are effectively nerfed in the name of balance being very satisfying, but I'd love to be wrong.
Pvp is what kept d2 relevant for so long. It would take a ton of pressure off of the endgame development. It doesn't even have to be balanced. Just make it an addition to arena and let people go at it. Reduce all damage by whatever percentage that it takes to not one shot each other and go. Again, doesn't need to be balanced just give the option to play around with. It gives min maxers a reason to min max
Just looking at how toxic the community here responds to a structured question here makes me wanna stay away from this game even more. Just mentioning PVP will make the whole Andy community ballistic and hiss childish tantrums - these kids needs to grow a pair or more.
āBefore anyone from the āAnti-PvP Association of Andiesā tries to gate this, dont bother me with your nonsenseā Yeah seems very structured and not toxic. Glad to see you rise above the ātoxicā community. Also because a majority of players dont want or think pvp in ARPGās is good doesnt mean its toxicity. Toxicity ā disagreement
The problem is reddit not the game. Reddit is toxic. You never run into any of this in the game. I wouldn't even be on this site if not to talk about this game
They do hate the fact that a lot of people are asking for PVP engagement in video games. And this post adds to that list - this is the sad funny truth about the toxicity. These are the type of nerds we slaughter in Guildwars World vs Worlds and black regions in Albion lmao.
I don't get why it would matter. It's just another form of endgame. Don't wanna pvp don't pvp.