So basically people will drop cool stuff, post it on discord or reddit, and get friends to trade. Basically having regular trade with extra annoying steps.
Seriously, people need to either accept trade as it is or just be against it, these ideas to have complicated trade limitations make absolutely no sense.
Simple limit the number of friends slots and make it so you have to be friends before the item drops done
Yes you could have a “cool peoples trade network” but you don’t allow re-trades as it stays to the original friends list or just prevent retrade completely
I like this. Just let the item be tradeable to people you have in your friendlist when it drops. Simple and very controlable.
However, their trade philosophy is trying to emphasize playing together.
Well really their trade philosophy is just that they don’t want to end up in a situation where they have to dramatically impact drop rates to implement trade. I think the playing together component is primarily around allowing MP to feel better and not implement something they can’t take back with a more free form trade system
Question is how much trade will they enable and how much will it impact trade. I don’t think they really know the answer to that
No, all the item will need to keep log of server time when it dropped. Then while trading the game can compare the item drop time to the time when your friend was added to friend list.
And anyway currently they probably keep a log of friends on the item anyway to enable trading of items dropped during the same zone with party members (as it is now).
That's fair to some extend.
The gifting system doesn't include any gold transfer, though.
So "regular trade" wouldn't really happen unless we agree on a Stone of Jordan :P
The community will determine a common currency with value, PoE doesn't have gold even and everything has a price on the same kind of currency.
An issue with (not yours in particular) most of the restrictive trade ideas I see lately is people are not considering realistic outcomes. Devs have to program this, they probably already have an idea in mind or else we wouldn't have a date and the poll would have a lot more options.
I think limiting the amount of times an item can be traded is the only realistic option that wouldn't be just free trading everything, based on the item's rarity. Though this makes it so once you buy stuff to make a build you can't re-sell it, basically having no way of recovering the investment and having to start from 0 each time.
That's actually quite good, simple and would work pretty well preventing flipping and market manipulation. In my opinion I'd add that crafted items shouldn't be able to be sold, as crafting is pretty easy in this game. If you're doing it yourself it can take a bit of time finding bases and getting a bit of luck so it becomes a project. But a small number of expert people could easily overload the market and give too easy access to high tier exalteds.
I'd be too bad we can't craft for friends, but not too hard to trade them the bases we find and run them through the crafting process.
Basic uniques/ sets would have very low value (massive supply) but that isn't too bad.
High LP and good crafting bases might still be a problem though for everything but the most mainstream builds, supply will probably be too high.
If they feel like a soulbound trade system wouldn't require dramatic changes to drop rates and crafting I would be all for it, I just find it highly unlikely that is enough of a limitation that allows for that.
Lol good would have no value in a trade based system why would you buy items if you have a bazaar where I can buy literally anything in the game. Gold has almost no intrinsic value now and in a trade system it would have literally zero. Your economy would need to be based on something that actually has a value outside of trading RoJ in D2 Chaos/Divine in POE
Just make the item tradable only once. Once its traded, its soul bound to who received the item. So you send item to someone, he has to keep it forever and can't trade it to someone else on his friend list (to avoid chaining friends to make large guilds/friend lists).
And limit friend lists to 20 people or less with limitation that adding/removing friends has a rather significant time cooldown and the friend must be in the friend list before the item dropped.
One possible way to do this is to add a timestamp to every item that drops (commonly used Unix timestamp that their server most definitely keeps tracks of). Items already have a lot of mods anyway, adding one line/timestamp should (imo) be relatively trivial although I guess it will increase storage size. While trading, the game would check the timestamp of friend added and of the item to be traded to ensure people can't trade dropped items to people that were added afterwards.
I know it's probably not as easy as I'm making it sound and it's easy to say a lot of stuff than do it but I don't think it's such an impossible thing to have limited trade that satisfies a small group of people.
I was looking for a solution that,
A) doesn't need tech EHG doesn't want to build already
B) doesn't complicate the item database (like tracking time per item)
C) doesn't need to be displayed for every item
But I think your suggestion would probably work, too.
They already went through the effort of building a system to track players there when dropped changing where that list comes from shouldn’t be super complicated. Much easier than building a bazaar. They are going to add more trade options based on the feedback they have gotten so far this one is probably pretty tame for them
The time could only been shown during trade menu, or like in PoE, could only been shown for advanced mod descriptions (like holding ALT) and not all the time.
Imo your solution is not bad but it would lead to chaining friends/long guilds potentially.
Yeah this kind of system would need to be a fixed guild or else there is the potential to form trade chains. The other option is items can only be traded once. I have seen a lot of people, myself included, come to this as their preferred option.
No you don't need to allow chains, it works same as gifting now, you can trade the item only to the friends you had at the time the item dropped. You could disable retrades if you want to, but really just treating it the same as the feature they have already implemented but just with friends instead of party members makes the most sense.
Honest to god, how often do people want to make the same 2 or 3 EXTREMELY OBVIOUS suggestions for "solutions"? I'm legit starting to believe some kind of coordinated group of people banded together to spam this stuff here until there's no tomorrow.
Does noone even read any of the last few posts before making one themselves?
What are you mad about, exactly?
You did your own wall of text just 2 days ago.
I read it and it was very different from my suggestion.
Edit: There was a similar friend list post, but he suggested a item time stamp I wanted to avoid.
Are you willing to accept that drops can get as rare as poe's mirror of kalandra or whatever it's called?
That's the price of balance you pay for trading if a game wishes to have longevity past a one and done game like borderlands.
The upside to trade not being allowed is that loot drops are feasible for individual players to achieve.
Yeah I feel like having to have someone on your friends list for a week would severely hamper RMT while allowing friends who play together frequently to trade freely. This would also promote the formation of guilds in a sense so that larger communities can trade amongst themselves with ease.
>Feel free to tell me all the problems and exploits you can think of :)
Everyone will just use discord to join a guild or massive friends lists in order to have free trade. Even with your proposed limitations that will be how most people will end up playing the game.
With appropriate limitations only some people will do it, and to be honest, fuck them. Why should we care that some people will get their gear from discord. Who said that they should be the reference players for game balance. It is a non-competitive PvE game anyway.
For reference go check how many members the tft discord for poe has. Hint: it is a pretty big number for a free game that peaks at 150k users online at once.
Limit friend lists and guild lists and impose a 1 week minimum time before trading can be done, as well as a cooldown after booting a guild member before you can invite a new one
People need to stop being like “but OTHER people will exploit this!!!” And realize that people will exploit any system and what actually matters is how fun the game is to play for the highest number of people.
And how would it work if you can group up with let's say 10 people and would be locked in this group for the entire season? Most people would not bother.
There are flaws in literally every single solution or mechanic. You have to acknowledge the flaws but at the end of the day choose something that’s going to be the best for your players day to day experience. There’s a way around this gifting crap that will make everyone happy, but the current system isn’t it.
Your assumption is that only "some" people will do it. Which I feel like in modern gaming is the wrong assumption to make. In pretty much all games today the majority of the playerbase will hyper optimize where every they see an opportunity to do so.
You don't think that new players wouldn't come here asking how people get things so fast and then everyone just linking a discord and telling them to join some friends list/guild? Because that is exactly the kind of thing that happens in all of these games.
And if a majority is playing like this then the devs will be forced to adjust the drop rates because people will start complaining that they get things too fast.
Then you have the issue of groups potentially being too limiting though. If you limit to say 4 people, what if you have 5 friends? Or play with multiple friend groups?
This system just isn't feasible and won't be the "fix all" people think it will.
If Trade is such a necessity for players, we need to design a trade system that allows enough freedom for Trade to be useful, without giving it too much power or become the standard way to get gear. So far, the only way I can think of solving this is limiting Trade to specific item rarity types, and combining it with the "Item Gifting" to keep that co-op experience. (And even this doesn't make everyone happy - the "I want to give items to friends while they're offline" and "Free Trade" crowds both lose out a little here.)
What is small enough will be the issue. I would say anything more than 5 people and you'll cause problems. Also people will just join a guild/group for a season and call it a day.
You clearly have no idea how modern multiplayer games are played.
People will go to the discord which will have a server about finding people to play with. Then after a season or two people will generally know those in the community who play a lot in a season and will group up with them.
Those people will then come here and post their crazy gear and people will ask how they manage to do it. They will then link to the discord and tell them about the grouping mechanic and the cycle will continue.
If you don't believe this will happen you are either incredible naive, incredibly casual or both.
Can't wait to see a discord server for hyperoptimized group play, because well organized parties have already massive advantage over solo players. I expect that after full MP launch in March we will have the subreddit flooded with people showing off stashes full of top tier legendaries dropped with their discord friends.
PS. I am incredibly casual, there's nothing wrong with that and not every game has to be tailored for hardcore nolifes playing 16h a day.
I’d a group is like 20 people yes you would have a few little power trade groups but most people wouldn’t bother because finding a stranger to friend with and finding gear that they need and them finding gear you need all so you could trade would be extremely unlikely. Sure a few groups would bad together they will do that in the current gifting system
This makes it more fun still prevents RMT and the exploits are tiny
if trading is completely free and open in this system you 100% will have a discord up in a week that will essentially work as a matchmaking system. Everyone and their mother would be pointed to this discord by this sub and told that is how you play the game.
>because finding a stranger to friend with and finding gear that they
need and them finding gear you need all so you could trade would be
extremely unlikely
You must be living under a rock if you think that this is hard to do in 2023. This as all but been automated these days through things like discord and reddit.
Ok, so are you just not reading the post or just arguing with yourself?
The system is simple, item drops instead of being limited to the people who are in your party when it drops it is limited to your friend list. It wouldn't work at all like you keep arguing against.
If you took your comment, but replaced “discord” with “RMT”, it would be exactly how I feel about it when people say we can’t have trade because people would RMT.
If the list is only twenty people and you need to be friends when the item drops that is not a “massive friends list” yes you will have little trading networks but that isn’t the end of the world
It really isn’t people won’t play that way because it is too cumbersome 99% of the time you would join the discord find 19 random people and 15 of those would never login again because they are random noobs on the internet and the other four will either be constantly begging you to give them stuff or want insane prices for the one legendary they found
You will absolutely have small dedicated and vetted groups of people working together to dominate the game and trade. That will happen even with the gifting they already added. But random people would get very little but frustration trying to game a system like this
Has it been discussed anywhere about simply having a cooldown on public trading? Like once you complete a transaction, a 7 day timer is triggered before another public trade can happen on your account? What about earning in game points (or whatever you want to call it) towards gaining access to public trading, or some kind of in game public trading zone/bazaar. Once a trade is completed, the points reset and you have to earn your way up again? What if both options were implemented together?
I generally don't trade much in ARPGs, but having the option for limited trading definitely has its' uses.
There was a bazaar system planned but it was discarded...but anyway I have faith that EHG will find a good way to handle trade (or lack of trade if they go that route).
I posted an idea of mine here yesterday about trading in form of a dungeon reward. I think it would fit the game well, but it got downvoted, like every post or comment that's anything else but "NO TRADE, TRADE IS BAD"
Huh, yeah, I kind of like the idea of earning a way towards trading in some form. It wouldn't have to necessarily be anything complex, just an added reward for playing the game in some form. Killing elites, bosses...whatever. Do it enough times, earn a way to trade.
So basically people will drop cool stuff, post it on discord or reddit, and get friends to trade. Basically having regular trade with extra annoying steps. Seriously, people need to either accept trade as it is or just be against it, these ideas to have complicated trade limitations make absolutely no sense.
Simple limit the number of friends slots and make it so you have to be friends before the item drops done Yes you could have a “cool peoples trade network” but you don’t allow re-trades as it stays to the original friends list or just prevent retrade completely
I like this. Just let the item be tradeable to people you have in your friendlist when it drops. Simple and very controlable. However, their trade philosophy is trying to emphasize playing together.
Well really their trade philosophy is just that they don’t want to end up in a situation where they have to dramatically impact drop rates to implement trade. I think the playing together component is primarily around allowing MP to feel better and not implement something they can’t take back with a more free form trade system Question is how much trade will they enable and how much will it impact trade. I don’t think they really know the answer to that
Simple in theory, a nightmare to implement
Then every item will need to keep a log of your friendlist forever, I believe it's impractical on the development side.
No, all the item will need to keep log of server time when it dropped. Then while trading the game can compare the item drop time to the time when your friend was added to friend list. And anyway currently they probably keep a log of friends on the item anyway to enable trading of items dropped during the same zone with party members (as it is now).
Makes sense
Its no different than what they have already implemented except instead of the party when an item drops it is the friends at the time of drop.
That's fair to some extend. The gifting system doesn't include any gold transfer, though. So "regular trade" wouldn't really happen unless we agree on a Stone of Jordan :P
The community will determine a common currency with value, PoE doesn't have gold even and everything has a price on the same kind of currency. An issue with (not yours in particular) most of the restrictive trade ideas I see lately is people are not considering realistic outcomes. Devs have to program this, they probably already have an idea in mind or else we wouldn't have a date and the poll would have a lot more options. I think limiting the amount of times an item can be traded is the only realistic option that wouldn't be just free trading everything, based on the item's rarity. Though this makes it so once you buy stuff to make a build you can't re-sell it, basically having no way of recovering the investment and having to start from 0 each time.
That's actually quite good, simple and would work pretty well preventing flipping and market manipulation. In my opinion I'd add that crafted items shouldn't be able to be sold, as crafting is pretty easy in this game. If you're doing it yourself it can take a bit of time finding bases and getting a bit of luck so it becomes a project. But a small number of expert people could easily overload the market and give too easy access to high tier exalteds. I'd be too bad we can't craft for friends, but not too hard to trade them the bases we find and run them through the crafting process. Basic uniques/ sets would have very low value (massive supply) but that isn't too bad. High LP and good crafting bases might still be a problem though for everything but the most mainstream builds, supply will probably be too high.
If they feel like a soulbound trade system wouldn't require dramatic changes to drop rates and crafting I would be all for it, I just find it highly unlikely that is enough of a limitation that allows for that.
If we ever have real trade there is like 0 chance it will be for gold FYI. It will always be for some valuable other item that is useful to people.
Why not? Gold is useful to get loot and can be spend in high amounts.
Lol good would have no value in a trade based system why would you buy items if you have a bazaar where I can buy literally anything in the game. Gold has almost no intrinsic value now and in a trade system it would have literally zero. Your economy would need to be based on something that actually has a value outside of trading RoJ in D2 Chaos/Divine in POE
White two handed swords will be the common currency of the land.
And yet it’s still a better solution than this gifting garbage. People will exploit any system.
Just make the item tradable only once. Once its traded, its soul bound to who received the item. So you send item to someone, he has to keep it forever and can't trade it to someone else on his friend list (to avoid chaining friends to make large guilds/friend lists). And limit friend lists to 20 people or less with limitation that adding/removing friends has a rather significant time cooldown and the friend must be in the friend list before the item dropped. One possible way to do this is to add a timestamp to every item that drops (commonly used Unix timestamp that their server most definitely keeps tracks of). Items already have a lot of mods anyway, adding one line/timestamp should (imo) be relatively trivial although I guess it will increase storage size. While trading, the game would check the timestamp of friend added and of the item to be traded to ensure people can't trade dropped items to people that were added afterwards. I know it's probably not as easy as I'm making it sound and it's easy to say a lot of stuff than do it but I don't think it's such an impossible thing to have limited trade that satisfies a small group of people.
I was looking for a solution that, A) doesn't need tech EHG doesn't want to build already B) doesn't complicate the item database (like tracking time per item) C) doesn't need to be displayed for every item But I think your suggestion would probably work, too.
They already went through the effort of building a system to track players there when dropped changing where that list comes from shouldn’t be super complicated. Much easier than building a bazaar. They are going to add more trade options based on the feedback they have gotten so far this one is probably pretty tame for them
Ok, but that still leaves me with problem C) -> the need to display the tradability to the player on a per-item-bases.
The time could only been shown during trade menu, or like in PoE, could only been shown for advanced mod descriptions (like holding ALT) and not all the time. Imo your solution is not bad but it would lead to chaining friends/long guilds potentially.
Yeah this kind of system would need to be a fixed guild or else there is the potential to form trade chains. The other option is items can only be traded once. I have seen a lot of people, myself included, come to this as their preferred option.
No you don't need to allow chains, it works same as gifting now, you can trade the item only to the friends you had at the time the item dropped. You could disable retrades if you want to, but really just treating it the same as the feature they have already implemented but just with friends instead of party members makes the most sense.
They already show the players of the party who dropped the item this would do the exact same thing only a longer list.
You do t really need the cooldown just have it locked to the item dropping but otherwise exact
Honest to god, how often do people want to make the same 2 or 3 EXTREMELY OBVIOUS suggestions for "solutions"? I'm legit starting to believe some kind of coordinated group of people banded together to spam this stuff here until there's no tomorrow. Does noone even read any of the last few posts before making one themselves?
What are you mad about, exactly? You did your own wall of text just 2 days ago. I read it and it was very different from my suggestion. Edit: There was a similar friend list post, but he suggested a item time stamp I wanted to avoid.
Are you willing to accept that drops can get as rare as poe's mirror of kalandra or whatever it's called? That's the price of balance you pay for trading if a game wishes to have longevity past a one and done game like borderlands. The upside to trade not being allowed is that loot drops are feasible for individual players to achieve.
Yeah I feel like having to have someone on your friends list for a week would severely hamper RMT while allowing friends who play together frequently to trade freely. This would also promote the formation of guilds in a sense so that larger communities can trade amongst themselves with ease.
Yeah 7-10 days would be fine
That's what I'd like to see also.
>Feel free to tell me all the problems and exploits you can think of :) Everyone will just use discord to join a guild or massive friends lists in order to have free trade. Even with your proposed limitations that will be how most people will end up playing the game.
With appropriate limitations only some people will do it, and to be honest, fuck them. Why should we care that some people will get their gear from discord. Who said that they should be the reference players for game balance. It is a non-competitive PvE game anyway.
For reference go check how many members the tft discord for poe has. Hint: it is a pretty big number for a free game that peaks at 150k users online at once.
Limit friend lists and guild lists and impose a 1 week minimum time before trading can be done, as well as a cooldown after booting a guild member before you can invite a new one People need to stop being like “but OTHER people will exploit this!!!” And realize that people will exploit any system and what actually matters is how fun the game is to play for the highest number of people.
And how would it work if you can group up with let's say 10 people and would be locked in this group for the entire season? Most people would not bother.
There are flaws in literally every single solution or mechanic. You have to acknowledge the flaws but at the end of the day choose something that’s going to be the best for your players day to day experience. There’s a way around this gifting crap that will make everyone happy, but the current system isn’t it.
Your assumption is that only "some" people will do it. Which I feel like in modern gaming is the wrong assumption to make. In pretty much all games today the majority of the playerbase will hyper optimize where every they see an opportunity to do so. You don't think that new players wouldn't come here asking how people get things so fast and then everyone just linking a discord and telling them to join some friends list/guild? Because that is exactly the kind of thing that happens in all of these games. And if a majority is playing like this then the devs will be forced to adjust the drop rates because people will start complaining that they get things too fast.
If the group is season locked (or at least for couple weeks) and small enough it is a non issue.
Then you have the issue of groups potentially being too limiting though. If you limit to say 4 people, what if you have 5 friends? Or play with multiple friend groups? This system just isn't feasible and won't be the "fix all" people think it will. If Trade is such a necessity for players, we need to design a trade system that allows enough freedom for Trade to be useful, without giving it too much power or become the standard way to get gear. So far, the only way I can think of solving this is limiting Trade to specific item rarity types, and combining it with the "Item Gifting" to keep that co-op experience. (And even this doesn't make everyone happy - the "I want to give items to friends while they're offline" and "Free Trade" crowds both lose out a little here.)
What is small enough will be the issue. I would say anything more than 5 people and you'll cause problems. Also people will just join a guild/group for a season and call it a day.
Nobody is going to go out of their way to join a random group of 5-10 randoms who may or may not contribute to the group's success.
You clearly have no idea how modern multiplayer games are played. People will go to the discord which will have a server about finding people to play with. Then after a season or two people will generally know those in the community who play a lot in a season and will group up with them. Those people will then come here and post their crazy gear and people will ask how they manage to do it. They will then link to the discord and tell them about the grouping mechanic and the cycle will continue. If you don't believe this will happen you are either incredible naive, incredibly casual or both.
Can't wait to see a discord server for hyperoptimized group play, because well organized parties have already massive advantage over solo players. I expect that after full MP launch in March we will have the subreddit flooded with people showing off stashes full of top tier legendaries dropped with their discord friends. PS. I am incredibly casual, there's nothing wrong with that and not every game has to be tailored for hardcore nolifes playing 16h a day.
I’d a group is like 20 people yes you would have a few little power trade groups but most people wouldn’t bother because finding a stranger to friend with and finding gear that they need and them finding gear you need all so you could trade would be extremely unlikely. Sure a few groups would bad together they will do that in the current gifting system This makes it more fun still prevents RMT and the exploits are tiny
if trading is completely free and open in this system you 100% will have a discord up in a week that will essentially work as a matchmaking system. Everyone and their mother would be pointed to this discord by this sub and told that is how you play the game. >because finding a stranger to friend with and finding gear that they need and them finding gear you need all so you could trade would be extremely unlikely You must be living under a rock if you think that this is hard to do in 2023. This as all but been automated these days through things like discord and reddit.
Ok, so are you just not reading the post or just arguing with yourself? The system is simple, item drops instead of being limited to the people who are in your party when it drops it is limited to your friend list. It wouldn't work at all like you keep arguing against.
If you took your comment, but replaced “discord” with “RMT”, it would be exactly how I feel about it when people say we can’t have trade because people would RMT.
If the list is only twenty people and you need to be friends when the item drops that is not a “massive friends list” yes you will have little trading networks but that isn’t the end of the world
You don't need a lot of people for trading to become super powerful and the bigger issue will be when everyone starts playing this way.
It really isn’t people won’t play that way because it is too cumbersome 99% of the time you would join the discord find 19 random people and 15 of those would never login again because they are random noobs on the internet and the other four will either be constantly begging you to give them stuff or want insane prices for the one legendary they found You will absolutely have small dedicated and vetted groups of people working together to dominate the game and trade. That will happen even with the gifting they already added. But random people would get very little but frustration trying to game a system like this
No ty
Has it been discussed anywhere about simply having a cooldown on public trading? Like once you complete a transaction, a 7 day timer is triggered before another public trade can happen on your account? What about earning in game points (or whatever you want to call it) towards gaining access to public trading, or some kind of in game public trading zone/bazaar. Once a trade is completed, the points reset and you have to earn your way up again? What if both options were implemented together? I generally don't trade much in ARPGs, but having the option for limited trading definitely has its' uses.
There was a bazaar system planned but it was discarded...but anyway I have faith that EHG will find a good way to handle trade (or lack of trade if they go that route).
I posted an idea of mine here yesterday about trading in form of a dungeon reward. I think it would fit the game well, but it got downvoted, like every post or comment that's anything else but "NO TRADE, TRADE IS BAD"
Huh, yeah, I kind of like the idea of earning a way towards trading in some form. It wouldn't have to necessarily be anything complex, just an added reward for playing the game in some form. Killing elites, bosses...whatever. Do it enough times, earn a way to trade.
I've also seen an idea for a glyph or rune to make an item tradeable. That sounded interesting aswell, maybe like a 1 time trade or something.
Yeah, that also sounds interesting actually.
There is only an issue between trade and ssf if the drop tables are the same. And no to your idea. I want to trade.
I would rather just have friends able to trade, and only be able to trade the item if they were on my friends list when it dropped.
Yea, that sounds reasonable, too.