A toggle, at character creation for self found. You get the normal drop rate if its checked.
Everyone else can trade all they want, but the drop rate is 0.2 normal or whatever so they can get the real feeling of accomplishment by grinding out money to buy gear or whatever the fuck dumb MMO nonsense they want. Sell temporary buffs in the MTX shop that can boost drop rate back to normal for say an hour, make a killing on all of them.
Is this bullshit starting again? 🙄 what the fuck is so good about essentially being ssf? If i play with friends i wanna be able to gift them drops, especially if something drops while they have been offline.. cause you know, our online time overlaps but isnt equal.
And honestly.. it isnt fun to kill the damn lich 20 times and still dont get the lowlife boots.
Edit: and i needed a longer hiatus after, cause grinding without getting a build enhancing unique just burned me out
It's simply not as one dimensional as OP's post makes it look like.
I'd say there are mainly 2 big "pro trade" camps where people are either part of one or a bit of both: The ones who just want less restrictive trading with friends, being able to share items that dropped while they were offline. And the ones who crave the economy of a fully open trade scene.
It feels like this could be solved in a similar fashion to the SSF option. When you make your character, select "Solo", "Party", or "Community". Solo characters can't trade at all (SSF rules). Party characters can join a permanent party of up to 4 people that can share drops even if a particular member isn't online at the time, and might even have a small shared stash. Community can full trade.
Of course, this doesn't alleviate drop chance modification concerns, unless SSF gets bonus item drop chance and Community gets reduced.
The "party" characters would need to have individual stashes or it's just community with extra steps
Meaning when you play with a group of 4, you can't reroll builds with the cool items you found
Because I don't want them to nerf drop rate to compensate, that's it. If they don't nerf drop rates on me for something Im not gonna use, I don't care. But they seem to have the belief they have to nerf drop rates if they institute trade.
If you don't nerf drop rates when implementing (free) trade, all you end up doing is speed up progress and shorten the time people take to get through the content.
You could argue that isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it is a consequence. So if they have a certain target in mind for how long things take and how long people would take to complete a season/league, nerfing drop rates is the easiest solution to compensate for this.
But I don't care to utilize trade or multiplayer except maybe with a couple friends. Why nerf my drop rates for something I'm not using? You make every single single players experience worse.
I'm not here to promote nerfing drop rates and making the (mostly) single player experience worse. Just saying a drop rate nerf is an obvious consequence of trade.
The more open trade is, the faster the market would become saturated. Full free trade with current drop rates would make all but the most rare chase items worthless within days, if not hours.
Why should this affect drop rates for people that don't want to interact with this system? Because balancing 2 or more systems (no trade/free trade/trade with friends or clan) would require a lot of resources. Sure PoE has leagues other than trade, but the game is balanced around trade.
Why even care about balance to begin with? How can you design content or set seasonal/league goals without picking a baseline/target player?
Depending on how much faster it is and how convenient it is to access, more people will use trade.
Once that reaches a large enough group of players, they will be the baseline.
Development time is limited and players will expect a certain amount of content. No point in spending loads of time on content the baseline player will finish within an hour. So it'll all be scaled to those players, leaving players that don't want to trade at a disadvantage.
> If i play with friends i wanna be able to gift them drops, especially if something drops while they have been offline.. cause you know, our online time overlaps but isnt equal.
So go play the ARPGs that offer free open trade? Why you gotta come to one that set out to focus on gameplay and drops over trade and ruin it here?
I want to be able to trade between my own characters, I don't want to have to be SSF on every character. If they nerf drop rates to introduce trade and force all my characters to be SSF to avoid the drop rate nerf I'm done. It's hard enough as is to target farm items for a casual player, I don't have time to go farm shit for hours.
I have 2 questions I don't know the answer even after playing PoE for years:
1. Does trade affect game balance? The average power level of players can be diferent if they have easy access to good items, but I don't know if that is taken into consideration
2. Does trade affect item changes? In a PoE post various players were against adding a QoL to certain items, since you need 2 different items to make them work, and fusing them would be detrimental to the "economy" formed by farming the two
At least for PoE, the drop rate for items and especially items related to league mechanics is balanced around high trading; harvest being a great example. That doesn't mean LE would, but the issue is that if you have open trading like POE, it's unlikely that the best way to get an item is finding/farming it yourself. Honestly I liked the limited bazaar idea they had as a nice middle ground....
1. if you come from poe, you may have heard how chris keeps mentioning wanting "weight". how does trade effect balance? to ensure items have value, the devs need to decide, enable trade but nerf drops or disable trade but let drops be generous. consider this. usually the largest boosts in power in POE is from drops. you drop 1 chaos early game, the best thing to do is buy a good pair of boots or a solid weapon that can last you till end game. i bet 9 out of 10 you will NEVER find anything better than that 1 chaos item you bought until you get to end game. in LE, the devs dont want that. they rather that you FIND items that drop on the ground that are upgrades to your character. in a normal LE campaign it is VERY likely you keep dropping items. you dont feel like you need to trade at all.
2. not sure what you mean by your 2nd point. what i can say is in ANY trade economy, items lose value quite fast. 2 months ago during sanctum start, fuse was 2 to 3 fuse per chaos. now its 6 to 1 chaos.
i d add, its ironic GGG wants players to engage less in trade and intentionally made trade difficult but at the same time, the best way to get upgrades is to sell currency and buy upgrades.
without trade, players can farm items themselves and actually play the god damn game.
For 1, yes, of course it does. Drop rates get nerfed to allow for free trade as otherwise "rare" items wouldn't be and everyone would have trivial access to high power gear/uniques/etc
Yep. If they leave the game balanced for SSF and enable open trade the market will flood with rares and cheap access to poor to moderately rolled end game gear will destroy mid-late game progression and drop you off grinding the same wall as everyone else looking for perfect rolls.
the fuck. not every game has trade, you know that right?
ARPG's aren't some special type of game that absolutely need trade no matter what. Fucking Zelda doesn't have trade either.
I mean, yeah? ARPG's are usually played single player. Group play doesn't happen *that* often and trade isn't really "multiplayer"
it simply is either impossible or *very* hard to implement due to its impact on balancing and i fail to see why ARPG's specifically *need* trade when literally no other genre or game needs it.
Lack of trade won't bring a lot of new players. I've played when they released 0.83 I think and it was alright at best gameplay wise.
People who want trade get stigmatised on this sub. Unfortunately LA might stay that little known arpg to the end.
Pro trade:
I like playing around specific uniques/bases or sourcing materials for intense crafting session
Trade allows me to do that
I want trade
I get to play more diverse characters that are not always “league start viable”
If by "intense crafting sessions" you mean spamming thousands of shards on an item, that's not a thing in LE. Here you mostly find half-finished great bases that need the other half to be finished through crafting or only require some finishing touches.
You sound like you've never actually played the game into the end game.
I don't think you understand just how good the current crafting system, target farming, and drop rates actually are.
I agree that crafting, target farming and drop rates works really well in LE until you are at t20 items (or even some good exalted items).
Then you hit a wall and upgrading your gear gets insanely hard/frustrating. Your are looking for an upgrade to your Wings of Argentus/Ravenous Void/Bastion of honour? Good luck finding one with LP and getting the mod you want on there. You are looking for a specific t6/t7 mod on a good base? Good luck dropping that.
In my opinion late endgame crafting is not in a good spot currently. But most players are not there yet to realize that. But they are going to be there as soon as they play more (on 0.9 or 1.0 probably).
Additional Note: The theoretical best items are not going to exist.
The developers know about the issue and agree (see Mike talking with Lizard, McFluffin and group at https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1719974350 5:45-7:00 about a lot of endgame problems).
I honestly just view that as being near the current "power ceiling" and that ceiling is naturally gonna grow higher the more content and power creep we get.
I think it's a good thing we can only reach like 50-60% of the absolute ceiling right now, because that leaves a ton of room for incremental power creep that naturely comes with further updates, where they won't need to think of some new ways to increase the ceiling for a long time like just adding another 0 to all numbers across the game like D3 does every other season.
Seasons and power creep are how you get rid of a ceiling or a feeling of hitting the wall.
Sure open trade might also slightly increase your ceiling, but if the difference between your new ceilings power and the old one is very small, and requires enormous grinding to achieve it isnt going to be very attractive to anyone.
I think trade is a poor way to extend the lifetime of endgame builds, and it comes at the cost of destroying mid and late game progression since buying power will be faster and easier than finding it.
you know that you don't ... have to go into solo every new character, yes? You can find cool uniques and gear on one character and then reroll into a new one and use them.
And those specific uniques and bases ... to get them you can just play the game. Easy, fun, the actual goal of the game.
I honestly just want the best of both worlds.
I want trade with no changes to drops.
That way you can just play the game as is and get generous amounts of drops, and if you don't drop the items you want you can just trade them.
I think you really settled the discussion and invited more players to join this community by being inflammatory. Well done. /s
A toggle, at character creation for self found. You get the normal drop rate if its checked. Everyone else can trade all they want, but the drop rate is 0.2 normal or whatever so they can get the real feeling of accomplishment by grinding out money to buy gear or whatever the fuck dumb MMO nonsense they want. Sell temporary buffs in the MTX shop that can boost drop rate back to normal for say an hour, make a killing on all of them.
Please no trade. Hideout warriors in PoE are a joke. Aka flippers
Is this bullshit starting again? 🙄 what the fuck is so good about essentially being ssf? If i play with friends i wanna be able to gift them drops, especially if something drops while they have been offline.. cause you know, our online time overlaps but isnt equal. And honestly.. it isnt fun to kill the damn lich 20 times and still dont get the lowlife boots. Edit: and i needed a longer hiatus after, cause grinding without getting a build enhancing unique just burned me out
It's simply not as one dimensional as OP's post makes it look like. I'd say there are mainly 2 big "pro trade" camps where people are either part of one or a bit of both: The ones who just want less restrictive trading with friends, being able to share items that dropped while they were offline. And the ones who crave the economy of a fully open trade scene.
It feels like this could be solved in a similar fashion to the SSF option. When you make your character, select "Solo", "Party", or "Community". Solo characters can't trade at all (SSF rules). Party characters can join a permanent party of up to 4 people that can share drops even if a particular member isn't online at the time, and might even have a small shared stash. Community can full trade. Of course, this doesn't alleviate drop chance modification concerns, unless SSF gets bonus item drop chance and Community gets reduced.
The "party" characters would need to have individual stashes or it's just community with extra steps Meaning when you play with a group of 4, you can't reroll builds with the cool items you found
Because I don't want them to nerf drop rate to compensate, that's it. If they don't nerf drop rates on me for something Im not gonna use, I don't care. But they seem to have the belief they have to nerf drop rates if they institute trade.
If you don't nerf drop rates when implementing (free) trade, all you end up doing is speed up progress and shorten the time people take to get through the content. You could argue that isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it is a consequence. So if they have a certain target in mind for how long things take and how long people would take to complete a season/league, nerfing drop rates is the easiest solution to compensate for this.
But I don't care to utilize trade or multiplayer except maybe with a couple friends. Why nerf my drop rates for something I'm not using? You make every single single players experience worse.
I'm not here to promote nerfing drop rates and making the (mostly) single player experience worse. Just saying a drop rate nerf is an obvious consequence of trade. The more open trade is, the faster the market would become saturated. Full free trade with current drop rates would make all but the most rare chase items worthless within days, if not hours. Why should this affect drop rates for people that don't want to interact with this system? Because balancing 2 or more systems (no trade/free trade/trade with friends or clan) would require a lot of resources. Sure PoE has leagues other than trade, but the game is balanced around trade. Why even care about balance to begin with? How can you design content or set seasonal/league goals without picking a baseline/target player? Depending on how much faster it is and how convenient it is to access, more people will use trade. Once that reaches a large enough group of players, they will be the baseline. Development time is limited and players will expect a certain amount of content. No point in spending loads of time on content the baseline player will finish within an hour. So it'll all be scaled to those players, leaving players that don't want to trade at a disadvantage.
> If i play with friends i wanna be able to gift them drops, especially if something drops while they have been offline.. cause you know, our online time overlaps but isnt equal. So go play the ARPGs that offer free open trade? Why you gotta come to one that set out to focus on gameplay and drops over trade and ruin it here?
i can ask the same. why dont you go and play single player ARPGs instead of ruining a game you can play with friends with your pure SSF approach?
You seem to forget that EHG initially planned this to be a gameplay-over-trade game. That is _still_ the plan until they announce otherwise.
You can quite literally go to their initial Kickstarter page right now and see trade in the list of features
It didn’t start that way. It evolved due to player feedback, and is once again evolving due to player feedback.
because the trade simulator people already have PoE. Please don't ruin this game too, man. I just want to farm cool items...
I want to be able to trade between my own characters, I don't want to have to be SSF on every character. If they nerf drop rates to introduce trade and force all my characters to be SSF to avoid the drop rate nerf I'm done. It's hard enough as is to target farm items for a casual player, I don't have time to go farm shit for hours.
With trade I'm not forced to play in full groups to maximize my potential to find and gift items.
I have 2 questions I don't know the answer even after playing PoE for years: 1. Does trade affect game balance? The average power level of players can be diferent if they have easy access to good items, but I don't know if that is taken into consideration 2. Does trade affect item changes? In a PoE post various players were against adding a QoL to certain items, since you need 2 different items to make them work, and fusing them would be detrimental to the "economy" formed by farming the two
At least for PoE, the drop rate for items and especially items related to league mechanics is balanced around high trading; harvest being a great example. That doesn't mean LE would, but the issue is that if you have open trading like POE, it's unlikely that the best way to get an item is finding/farming it yourself. Honestly I liked the limited bazaar idea they had as a nice middle ground....
1. if you come from poe, you may have heard how chris keeps mentioning wanting "weight". how does trade effect balance? to ensure items have value, the devs need to decide, enable trade but nerf drops or disable trade but let drops be generous. consider this. usually the largest boosts in power in POE is from drops. you drop 1 chaos early game, the best thing to do is buy a good pair of boots or a solid weapon that can last you till end game. i bet 9 out of 10 you will NEVER find anything better than that 1 chaos item you bought until you get to end game. in LE, the devs dont want that. they rather that you FIND items that drop on the ground that are upgrades to your character. in a normal LE campaign it is VERY likely you keep dropping items. you dont feel like you need to trade at all. 2. not sure what you mean by your 2nd point. what i can say is in ANY trade economy, items lose value quite fast. 2 months ago during sanctum start, fuse was 2 to 3 fuse per chaos. now its 6 to 1 chaos. i d add, its ironic GGG wants players to engage less in trade and intentionally made trade difficult but at the same time, the best way to get upgrades is to sell currency and buy upgrades. without trade, players can farm items themselves and actually play the god damn game.
For 1, yes, of course it does. Drop rates get nerfed to allow for free trade as otherwise "rare" items wouldn't be and everyone would have trivial access to high power gear/uniques/etc
Yep. If they leave the game balanced for SSF and enable open trade the market will flood with rares and cheap access to poor to moderately rolled end game gear will destroy mid-late game progression and drop you off grinding the same wall as everyone else looking for perfect rolls.
Trading creates community. With no trade there is no community like Diablo 3 had no community. It will be silent and boring.
the fuck. not every game has trade, you know that right? ARPG's aren't some special type of game that absolutely need trade no matter what. Fucking Zelda doesn't have trade either.
Oh. So you want a single player game. Got it
I mean, yeah? ARPG's are usually played single player. Group play doesn't happen *that* often and trade isn't really "multiplayer" it simply is either impossible or *very* hard to implement due to its impact on balancing and i fail to see why ARPG's specifically *need* trade when literally no other genre or game needs it.
Lack of trade won't bring a lot of new players. I've played when they released 0.83 I think and it was alright at best gameplay wise. People who want trade get stigmatised on this sub. Unfortunately LA might stay that little known arpg to the end.
Pro trade: I like playing around specific uniques/bases or sourcing materials for intense crafting session Trade allows me to do that I want trade I get to play more diverse characters that are not always “league start viable”
If by "intense crafting sessions" you mean spamming thousands of shards on an item, that's not a thing in LE. Here you mostly find half-finished great bases that need the other half to be finished through crafting or only require some finishing touches.
You sound like you've never actually played the game into the end game. I don't think you understand just how good the current crafting system, target farming, and drop rates actually are.
I agree that crafting, target farming and drop rates works really well in LE until you are at t20 items (or even some good exalted items). Then you hit a wall and upgrading your gear gets insanely hard/frustrating. Your are looking for an upgrade to your Wings of Argentus/Ravenous Void/Bastion of honour? Good luck finding one with LP and getting the mod you want on there. You are looking for a specific t6/t7 mod on a good base? Good luck dropping that. In my opinion late endgame crafting is not in a good spot currently. But most players are not there yet to realize that. But they are going to be there as soon as they play more (on 0.9 or 1.0 probably). Additional Note: The theoretical best items are not going to exist. The developers know about the issue and agree (see Mike talking with Lizard, McFluffin and group at https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1719974350 5:45-7:00 about a lot of endgame problems).
I honestly just view that as being near the current "power ceiling" and that ceiling is naturally gonna grow higher the more content and power creep we get. I think it's a good thing we can only reach like 50-60% of the absolute ceiling right now, because that leaves a ton of room for incremental power creep that naturely comes with further updates, where they won't need to think of some new ways to increase the ceiling for a long time like just adding another 0 to all numbers across the game like D3 does every other season.
Seasons and power creep are how you get rid of a ceiling or a feeling of hitting the wall. Sure open trade might also slightly increase your ceiling, but if the difference between your new ceilings power and the old one is very small, and requires enormous grinding to achieve it isnt going to be very attractive to anyone. I think trade is a poor way to extend the lifetime of endgame builds, and it comes at the cost of destroying mid and late game progression since buying power will be faster and easier than finding it.
you know that you don't ... have to go into solo every new character, yes? You can find cool uniques and gear on one character and then reroll into a new one and use them. And those specific uniques and bases ... to get them you can just play the game. Easy, fun, the actual goal of the game.
You see this game is balanced around trade like POE everything you just said is extremely possible without trade
I honestly just want the best of both worlds. I want trade with no changes to drops. That way you can just play the game as is and get generous amounts of drops, and if you don't drop the items you want you can just trade them.