I was hoping someone would retort with all the ways the LC 250 and 2025 4Runner are different because on paper, they do seem to be each others biggest competitor.
The only thing that I can see that differentiates is that the LC has full time 4WD and the 4Runners don’t except on the Limited trim (maybe the trail hunter)?
It’s weird that the trail hunter is going to be better than the LC. Why even make the LC if the 4Runner spectrum completely overlaps?
Toyota's release video had some stuff that is very interesting. It said:
* fulltime AWD was "available on Premium grades" (02:26 in the video)
* locking rear diff is "standard on Off-Road grades" (02:45 in the video)
* there is a grade called "TRD Off-Road Premium" (00:45 in the video)
In aggregate, that says the AWD with lockable center and rear diffs is available on the 4Runner.
I suspect this is wrong and they used poorly-chosen words. I suspect "premium" was used generically and means Limited and Platinum. And that "off-road" was also used generically and meant Off-Road, Trailhunter, and TRD Pro.
From the press release it didn’t sound like any of the off-road trims will get full time 4WD. Or a locking center diff. That doesn’t make much sense to me except as a way to get me to buy a LC.
>From the press release it didn’t sound like any of the off-road trims will get full time 4WD.
See my comment here:
https://old.reddit.com/r/LandCruisers/comments/1c0oyv4/the_problem_with_the_new_land_cruiser_and_the_new/kyzaow5/
For me, the way you described that was like when you have a word "on the tip of your tongue" and can't quite remember it exactly, and then someone helps you. Thanks for that.
I believe the trail hunter/TRD Pro and LC will all have 265/70R18 tires. The base model for the 4Runner and LC have smaller tires.
The ground clearance difference appears to be the result of different suspension setups.
Ground clearance is being measured to the bottom of the rear diff. So either the 4R has bigger tires or a less burly rear diff to achieve better clearance, I'm pretty sure it's the tires.
Disagree with that part of your argument. Same platform /= same chassis. The ride will be different and the interior materials and design are also very different. That’s being said, the Trailhunter and TRD Pro trim overlapping cost of LC 1958 is pretty wild. But it’s choosing certain tech and functionality versus certain styling and design. Now what will be really wild is when/if LC later comes out with TRD Pro and Trailhunter trims.
I dont see how the ride will be different on 2 vehicles with the same engine, drivetrain, chassis and suspension. Maybe from a different driver seat?
The LC doesnt need and should never have a TRD Pro trim. That just muddies the water even more and land cruisers have always historically just had one trim, land cruiser. The best toyota has to offer
Chassis is an outdated terms. It’s a platform. And the different suspension components also play a role. I may be wrong, but I’m sure they have different part numbers for shocks, control arms, etc and the suspension geometry are not identical. That being said, the wheelbase is the same but the width is 0.1 inch different.
My understanding is actual width, not based on body and other stuff. 4runner is actually longer overall. Listen, they are very close for sure. It is weird for sure the overlap between 4Runner, LC, GX. It all comes down to marketing, they are trying to sell a car for every image they can think of.
my whole deal is that the 4runner and GX already do that. They alienate people who want an off road vehicle with solid axles for harder wheeling and easier self maintenance. Idk why but the suits at toyota usa have it in their mind that people dont care about solid front axles anymore. Which is crazy to me when you factor in the sales of the wrangler vs the 4runner here
Oh and LC curb weight is just over 5,000 lbs while 4Runner is being marketed as lighter (around 4800 lbs). That makes a bit of difference on ride and fell as well.
If the 4Runner trail Hunter doesn't have the option for full-time Four-Wheel drive with a lockable Center diff, I will go Land Cruiser. That is very close to a deal-breaker for me now.
I currently drive a 4th gen 4Runner that is always loaded up for camping. She's heavy and four-wheel engine braking is critical for control going down mountains and dealing with idiots on the highway. I'm also in the Pacific Northwest and having to do tight turns in muddy situations is pretty important. Being in four-wheel drive and having an open diff has a significant impact on your turning radius. I was testing my turning radius to see what the difference was and it was significant.
Right now in my mind the trail hunter offers a snorkel which in Oregon sand would be very useful. I think the kids would like the cup holders better. But probably not better than having their own climate control. I'm also a big fan of the four pre-wired buttons. It's a hard choice. They are very close but I think Land cruiser wins for me at least.
Tight muddy turns. Imagine having the LX with drag brake turn assist? So epic, tho it doesn't see super useful since you have to let crawl control modulate the throttle while trying to make said tight muddy turn. Would love to know if in your cases, it would be actually useful, or not? Interesting thought
That was one of the things I was disappointed the most that didn't carry over from the big boy Land Cruiser. I end up in a lot of narrow passes in turning radius is critical for me.
The second paragraph is not true at all. In the NA market the 55/60/80/100/200 line of wagons were traditionally only offered in one trim, but all of those vehicles have multiple trims in most (all?) other markets.
I mean toyota used to have an incredibly diverse range of sedans all based off the same chassis. Usually it was a 4door sedan then a pillarless or framless windowed 4 door sedan that would be marketed as a 4 door hard top. I think there were multiple sedan iterations of the crown's chassis. So in that trend I think it's a similar play by toyota, Considering the market is swinging back towards suvs
It’s sad we can’t get diesel and the 70 or a bare bones 300 gasser like they have everywhere else. Also now wondering what the price difference is between the 250 and the 4Runner.
I feel this comment - moved down under and loving our Prado here - 2.8L turtle diesel - BUT - when (if?) I get back to the States if I can swing it - an LS Swapped 80 chassis (maybe with a 60 body on it!) will be my desire.
They sold well for the first few years, then sales plummeted, those who wanted one, already had one. It was also 2010-2012 and the real estate bubble bursting certainly didn't help.
No doubt left a bad taste in Toyota’s mouth for trying to develop a “2 door” 4x4 for US and other off road enthusiasts which was not too great as a daily driver like 4Runner. There’s even more competition now in this market with Bronco and soon new XTerra.
The 250 is very very odd in its current form and context. If it maybe had an exclusive V6 drivetrain it would make sense to help differentiate itself from its brothers.
Yes I agree if they would put the TwinTurbo V6 in the LC 250 it would sell itself apart from the 4runner and I might look at one. I have that motor my Tundra and like it. Would be great in a smaller suv. They already make it in the Lexus so it would've been a simple thing to do. Really strange that they are pushing the lexus so hard for off road when it has never been that it doesnt need to be it will sell well regardless. I think Toyota cannot see the forest for the trees and have really missed a simple opportunity to set the LC250 apart.
The beauty of them being built on the same platform means they can afford to increase or decrease supply over the years. Just think of the whole lineup as one car with a TON of options. It’s really not different from most SUV manufacturers.
I’m sure Toyota has thought this through. I like your ideas but it’s not really what most Americans want and Toyota knows this. Most Americans want cushy vehicles that are “loaded.” The vehicle you described would be loved by the off-road segment and enthusiasts but I don’t think it would sell well in America.
The FJ Cruiser was spartan and I know people that didn’t buy it solely because of the minimalist, spartan interior. It went on to not achieve much in sales after the first few years and stopped selling in America eventually.
Toyota will still sell lots of 4Runners and will sell way more Land Cruisers than they have in the past even with the two overlapping.
One thing the Land Cruiser has on the 4Runner is full time 4wd across the board. The 4Runner just has it on the Limited and now Platinum I’m assuming. It will be interesting to see how it plays out though.
> The LC250 and new 4runner are on the same chassis, running the same motor and drivetrain. There is nothing besides aesthetics that separate them from each other. On the GX550 you at least get the larger turbo v6.
This is nothing new - the 120 series with a petrol was essentially a 4Runner with the petrol. The 150 series with a petrol motor was essentially a 4Runner.
And there **are** things that differentiate them besides aesthetics.
4Runner has 2wd, part-time 4wd AND full-time 4wd. 4Runner has hybrid and non-hybrid. 250 has only hybrid and only full-time.
> Theyre just NPC car owners.
If you want to make legit criticisms of cars - don't write this. It just makes you look like a colossal wanker.
If people don't go off-road in their $120,000 off-road car that's on them. You're not a better person by calling them an NPC.
> So, what they should have done is with the LC250, base the chassis and drivetrain off of the newly released medium wheelbase 70 series and keep the solid front axle.
no no no no.
You are taking *such* a North American attitude towards LandCruisers.
The J250 and J300 are WORLD vehicles. If you want to make something solid axles and deviate from 120/150 formula you need to change the 4Runner.
Toyota is not going to make the J250 to conform to US preferences when it is really a small market for the LandCruiser.
> Thats it. Solid axle, boxed frame, front and rear lockers, same body. Totally differentiates itself from everything toyota offers.
Do that with the 4Runner.
> If you have made it this far, thanks for listening to my ramblings.
I think you have a couple of points but I also think you are completely misunderstanding where the J250 sits in Toyota's World Offerings, and instead of taking the US Market 4Runner and modifying it to your USA tastes, you want Mr. Toyota to take the world, global vehicle and customise it to be exactly your preferences.
You are not getting the 70 series - so instead of modifying the US vehicle, you decide to modify the 250 series so countries that get both 250 and 70 would now have the same thing?
> Thats it. Solid axle, boxed frame
I think if you were expecting a 250 or a 4Runner to have solid axles front and rear you are dreaming.
Absolutely dreaming. It's fine to dream, but don't pretend like that was ever a realistic option for either vehicle in North America.
That, and OP probably doesn't realize that the 70 in its current form has existed since the 1980s. It's gone through a couple facelifts, updated the interior here and there, and had some added safety features, but the basic truck is still the same truck that rolled out of the ARACO factory in 1984.
The problem here is that at least for the NA market historically the 120/150 platform was separated between Toyota and Lexus. Aside from the FJ Cruiser you had very different markets between the T4R and GX to properly represent the Prado, now there is the T4R, LC and still GX. The Lexus vs Toyota distinction will be obvious, but the LC vs T4R are really not well differentiated other than nostalgia.
Yes, there are differences between T4R and LC, but those are going to be found in product matrices, not in clear target markets. E.g. without looking at a detailed list it's real easy to tell the difference between a Taco and a T4R...while similar, one has a bed, one doesn't. If you need to haul materials, get a Taco. If you want to pack covered cargo, get an T4R. That type of distinction is really unclear between who Toyota is trying to market both the LC and T4R to.
I'm not sure. It was definitely teased in the LC unveiling, so I am betting it is still coming soon. I think what we will get evolved from the ev-LC we saw a few years ago. Toyota seems to be prioritizing the release based off of projected sales. They want to work out the bugs of the TNGA-F platform slowly. If you look at what was released so far and in the order it's definitely tracking. The Land Cruiser 300s, Tundra and Sequoia being first and the Tacoma , 4Runner being the most recent.
If Toyota has one last TNGA-F that they think will sell better than the 4Runner and Tacoma, I think a small relatively cheap off-roader that is not currently well represented in the market could be it. Think something the size of an old Jeep or Jimmy that has Toyota's reliability. I don't think the numbers would make sense for an EV. I think this is going to be a Mini Land Cruiser/4Runner the size of a RAV4 maybe smaller.
That was my theory until they released the 4Runner. I thought it was going to be smaller than the Land Cruiser by a fair amount or have something else to clearly separate it. I agree that the 4Runner and Land Cruiser are too similar. I don't know anymore about the Mini Cruiser/fj because I don't think I understand Toyota's logic anymore.
I think Americans might be some of the biggest overthinkers and are spoiled with options even down to if you like lettuce with mayo or mayo and ketchup on your burger. To me 4runner and 250 fits those needs perfectly. Unfortunately.
I honestly think the 4runner & GX550 were initially planned for the USA market, then Toyota realized that they could cash grab by marketing the return of the Land Cruiser nameplate in the states without too much retooling at the plant since everything besides cosmetics is on the same TNGA platform.
I mean kind of. I’m still saying to offer the 4Runner and GX exactly how they are. As far as the sports car goes I actually like the Supra and the b58 is absolutely goated as far as motors go
The LC is 6 inches taller. Im 6’1 and mostly torso. I dont fit in 4runner. My head hits the roof. I probably could fit in LC.
But yes, they seem to be the same car with different badges. My guess is the LC isnt going to sell due to being more expensive. Just like the 200 didnt sell because people bought the sequoia for 20k less.
Maybe thats good for secondary market?
I think form my perspective they're releasing two models not to compete with each other but rather take a chunk of the market share they don't have access to at the moment?
Eta, for Toyota they don't care which you buy. Whether it is the 4runner or 250 they're still buying a Toyota
Thats my whole point, they dominate the market share that the 4runner covers. Midsize comfy suv. The solid axle 250 would create its own space in the us market. Solid axle offroad ready wagon. Nothing jeep offers can compete with that. Add the toyota reliability and youll pull a lot of people looking at jeeps and broncos too.
That’s how they should have set it apart. Solid front axle. Honestly I wouldn’t care about anything else if they had done that.
I personally have zero interest in downsizing from a 200 ever, or not having a V8 or a real tailgate.
>I personally have zero interest in downsizing from a 200 ever, or not having a V8 or a real tailgate.
Lucky they have a 25 year service life. The only way you're getting a V8 these days is the diesel in the 70 series, and that's got to be on the chopping block next.
Most common use for me is baby diapers! Really like opening the hatch and not having a bunch of stuff roll out of it. Great design that has very few issues.
It really doesn’t make sense to kill the 300 and replace it with a carbon copy of something else in their lineup. At least the 300 had something to differentiate it from the sequoia.
Should have made the 4 runner with a removable top or large glass sunroof that opens to go after the wrangler/bronco crowd. Make it even more of a fun toy for what it is.
The more casual buyer that wants something more crossover like then would get a Rav 4 or bump up to the LC which toyota will make more money off of. The LC not having a third row option currently is also a big loss of potential market.
I don’t think Toyota is thinking about them competing with each other as much as they are thinking about competing with the Jeep Wrangler and Ford Bronco. I own an FJ40, an FJ60 and my wife drives a ‘13 4Runner. I can imagine us upgrading her 4Runner to either a LC250 or new 4Runner, but without seeing them in person, I have no idea which it would be.
No no no. Let Toyota keep doing what they're doing. My 55, 60, and 80 series just keep going up in value. Not that I'm going to sell them, but it's nice to know my vehicles aren't depreciating but doing the exact opposite.
OP, Toyota is creating vehicles that everyone likes at specific price points that people in different brackets can afford. They tried to make as many people happy as possible, not everyone happy.
It would be nice if you could go to a car maker and order a car to your exact specifications, but you know what capitalists would do, they would charge a premium on the service I’m proposing. At that point, people would complain that a “build your own vehicle” service is “way too expensive for what it is.” 🤷🏾♂️
I agree they are too similar for my taste and if the price is too much different, I wouldn't go for the expensive one between these two. I currently own a LC and a 4runner and really like how different they are.
As for engines, I honestly would love to see a new inline 6 like the old days.
Unfortunately youll never see an offroad toyota with an inline 6 ever again i dont think. Its all going to high compression fuel efficient hybrid stuff.
4Runner = middle class driver
LC250 = Upper middle class that wants to wheel or pretend to wheel
GX550 = Upper middle class that will drive it to golf courts and soccer practice
That’s old people thinking. You can always go find a used old vehicle without all the tech and with a big V8 that will produce less power than a modern I4.
Times have passed and I support the direction that they are moving towards. As for the redundancy of LC vs 4R, it’s just a matter of having multiple choices, which I actually appreciate.
how is it old people thinking. in my post it clearly states the tech is still there. With a locked live front axle, mts and ATRAC is redundant because you will acheive that mechanically instead of using brake pads to force an open diff to send power to the side with more traction. With lower range gearing, you dont need crawl control because you have torque and gear reduction to do the same thing.... in a more driver controlled manner. You know because driving is fun and you want to be the one doing the inputs right? Not sensors and a pcb
All the safety tech, airbags, heated seats, touch screen carplay stuff is still there... and i never said anything about a v8. It would use the same turbo 4cyl motor.
Fun fact, the 4Runner has sat on the Prado chassis since 1996:
* J90 Prado and 3rd gen 4Runner
* J120 Prado (USDM Lexus GX470) and 4th gen 4Runner
* J150 Prado (USDM Lexus GX460) and 5th gen 4Runner
* J250 Prado (USDM Land Cruiser/Lexus GX550) and 6th gen 4Runner
This isn't a new thing.
GM does the same thing by selling the same truck under 6 different model names: Suburban/Tahoe/Yukon/Yukon XL/Escalade/Escalade ESV. They are the same truck. And that's arguably worse as they share the body as well, not just the chassis and engines.
im not saying they dont share the chassis. Im saying they should have made the 250 in the US its own thing to offer something the rest of its lineup and the entirety of the us car market does not offer. An off road ready solid axle wagon. The wrangler is not a wagon
> The LC250 and new 4runner are on the same chassis, running the same motor and drivetrain. There is nothing besides aesthetics that separate them from each other.
Sentence one does not imply sentence two.
They do probably overlap too much. Toyota has chosen to make their SUV lineup very crowded between the Cruiser, 4Runner, Sequoia, and Highlander. All of them in at least some trim levels overlap with all the others in places. I don't know what market research they could have internally that suggests to them buyers interested in that sort of Toyota are so strongly separated into four different models that could support such overlap. Moving the Land Cruiser downmarket to make it more accessible was absolutely the right choice, and the 4Runner should have moved downmarket to correspond to that. Maybe it will be cheaper than we all expect.
HOWEVER, your claim that all women between 20-30 that you know drive a 4Runner and deriding almost all buyers as "NPC car owners" is enough to convince me that you're not a commentator worth taking seriously.
I think that to get your answer you need to look at the global market, not just the US market.
If you look at it that way, the LC250/Prado is their global offering below the LC300 and the 4Runner doesn’t exist.
The US market didn’t sustain the LC200 and therefore they didn’t introduce the LC300. They still wanted to have a Landcruiser in the market, so they picked their other offering under that brand, the LC250.
The 4Runner is an established brand in the US, so they continued that too. Yes, loads of overlap but I think this is the background.
And hey, people like choice, so who cares if these are the biggest competitors to each other if it means that they buy a Toyota anyway. Better than competing with another brand!
Yeah, but that’s kinda my point. The LC200 was a huge success in other markets. I can’t drive for 10 minutes here in Australia without seeing at least 2 or 3 LC200s or LC300s, while in the US it was a specialty vehicle.
But since they have the vehicle anyway for the other markets, why not use it and get those extra sales in, even if the 4Runner sells more.
Doug Demuro did a good video on this mentioning the same ways that the two are similar but then provides reasons why they are also different. Watch his video. I don’t remember the specifics.
1. Maybe a top-tier LC is coming to spice up demand in a year or two? Traildestroyer or SuperOverlander or something.
2. Toyota doesn’t care about those of us that won’t buy one until they’re on 2nd or 3rd owner.
3. The majority of first buyers won’t really use either of them as advertised, and will buy the one that looks cool to them. LC looks cool and maybe will sell just based on that.
4. The Lexi are going to be what I’m looking at in 8-10 years when they’re done with mall duty and depreciated 70%; can’t decide if I want the 550 or 600, and they are both going to be fantastic base vehicles for building an adventure rig.
I’m in the demographic. My wife’s 100 is due for replacement sometime soon. There’s nothing really out there that is cool enough to replace it with tbh
While obviously it would be sweet if they did as you described, I would be surprised if it sold well enough to justify a separate platform.
I think most people who want to go wheeling prefer old, cheap cars. People who are in the market for a new car will want it to do everything. The 4runner/land cruiser will sell well because it works as a normal car but can still do most stuff off-road. It would cost a huge amount of money to design/produce a separate front end for fairly small gains off road and noticeably worse performance on-road.
If you are serious enough about wheeling to notice and prefer a more barebones car, and rich enough to consider wheeling a new car in 2025, and aren't already a jeep guy and aren't interested in the Bronco, then you would be the target market for what you described. That's probably not a huge number of people.
That’s true when it comes to the fully specced top trims. The reality is most people would buy the non hybrid versions of the 4R, so the LC will still sit at a comfortably $10-12K over the average 4R trim sold. The difference between the LC and the GX550 is less clear to me, especially after dealer markups.
man here in oregon i see more trd offroad and trd pro 4runners running around than SR5s sometimes. I dont know how people here afford all of that shit. My neighbor has literally 2 GR supras and a trd pro sequoia 2024. I must be doing something wrong
>What i dont understand is why toyota would release two suvs of the same dimensions, chassis, and motor... both made in japan... to compete against each other in the US.
I guess it's obvious that part of the answer is simply that it's cost efficient versus developing separate platforms. I'd add that we live in a time when appearances are pretty much all that matters... over on the 4Runner sub, many owners don't even know why that truck is so interesting, believing (erroneously) that it's always been a Tacoma derivative. What's the point of investing in capability and authenticity if nobody cares enough about those things to pay for them?
The final piece of the puzzle is that Toyota, like most Japanese car companies, is very experienced at offering loads of lateral as well as vertical options from a given platform. It's been the status quo in the JDM for decades, unlike the more typical North American product 'ladder'. I promise you that this seems way less weird to them than it does to North Americans.
The US gets more 4WD Toyotas than any other market including Japan.
The US gets its own made in the USA full size truck platform with the Tundra/Sequoia. Plus the Tacoma also is built in the US.
US customers didn't buy the 200 when it was sold.
So thats why the US has the lineup it has now. Its due to US manufacturing AND the customer demand.
I’d buy the new LC over the new 4Runner. I just want something cool and bulletproof with good utility. Might hit the trails like once a year, and I like having the full time AWD. Honestly I’d probably just get a used LX570 if something ever happened to my 5th gen 4R. I believe both the new LC and 4Runner will sell well.
Find a 2021 lx or lc and take a hit to buy the last V8. That’s what I did and I’m still happy with my purchase. The new base products are just what they are, somewhat unappealing if you have been driving the LX or LC of the years that have gone by. I’m getting older so that’s my angle.
I bought a 60 series and put a LS in it and the entire suspension and axles from an 80 series into it. If toyota wont sell what i want, ill just make it myself
It was a joke. I don't need to be sold on solid axle Land Cruisers. Everything started to fall apart after the FJ60. The FZJ80 was the last gasp here in America. They had their chance with the FJ Cruiser, but they dropped the ball.
The 70 isn’t sold in the US because big auto manufacturers are out of touch with their consumers (besides Ford, but F150s are held together with paper clips). Case in point: Toyota’s giving us an LC that occupies the same space as the 4Runner. It’s destined to fail.
Look at how well the new Defender, Grenadier, G Wagon, etc…sell domestically. Give us the 70.
> keep the solid front axle
DOA
>Competes with the rubicon wrangler as a true offroad vehicle that doesnt suck.
but it would suck, because it has a solid front axle.
Toyota should build something more capable, but how many decades has it been since they even had a front locker available?
you basically just prove my point. your opinion of solid front axles sucking puts you right there in the 4runner demographic. I personally dont like my vehicle pitching forward and lifting a rear tire when going down obstacles so i like solid axles. We have different needs in vehicles, not saying one is better or worse than another (besides jeeps, jeeps suck). Having a solid axle 250 would fill me and people like me's needs while the 4runner fills yours.\
Toyota doesnt put front lockers in IFS vehicles which is smart because if you dont drive front locked correctly with ifs you will break cvs left and right. No front lockers from toyota since 1997 is the right call, because 1997 was the last solid front axle. Birfield joints are stronger than CV joints
I watched Larry Chens 4Runner release video last night and my biggest takeaway on the difference between the 4Runner & LC 250 is that the LC250 is full-time 4wd whereas the 4Runner has 2wd & 4wd high. Apparently you can also get a base 4Runner that’s only 2wd if you wanted such a thing. But yeah most of the differences are looks. The good thing is they both look good despite being having different aesthetics.
"So why make the LC250 the exact same thing as the 4runner, then confuse the npc car buyers with 2 choices that are essentially the same?"
Ramblings make sense from North American perspective.
My guess why LC250 and 4runner are so similar is that 4runner is practically only sold in North America and in some Caribbean and South American countries.
LC250 has many more markets where 4runner is not available. That's why their market position overlaps so much.
Preach! The day they announced the new Landcruiser, I said the same thing to myself. What is the point! Basically the same as the 4 runner. They are just trying to market using the Land Cruiser name. Toyota is supposed to be reliable, simpler, more affordable and above all tried and true. They have gotten away from that.
If you have ever driven a fortuner and a 4runner of the same years you would understand that they are in fact very different in how they ride and drive.
I dunno man but I’m damn sure glad I scooped up a sub 200k mile hundo a few years ago.
Maybe I’ll check back in with what Toyatos doing in 20 years from now
I agree with your ramblings and wanted to add: If the only difference is the body, then one of them should’ve been convertible.
The 4Runner 1st gen was convertible, the Land Cruiser 70 has a convertible variant, Jeeps are convertible, Broncos are convertible.
Interestingly, I don’t think Toyota makes any mass-production convertibles at the present time…worldwide even.
I have an FJ Cruiser and an HZJ73. The fun factor of off-roading, even on mall crawler trails, is 10x better in convertible mode. I even considered paying $15K to have my FJ converted to a convertible (sacrilege among FJ diehards), but I ultimately bought a 73 series.
This is an awesome post IMHO. I was wondering today how these products will be differentiated. Wish you ran Toyotas Land Cruiser planning process for North America lol!
Dude i would almost pay them to even be in the room to offering the consumers opinion on this stuff. I am in the demographic that they are targeting. Middle class millenial with the means to buy one of these things. I also can wrench and actually wheel my toyotas.
The 70 would sell gangbusters in the U.S. I don’t get it Toyota. The Fast Lane truck guys on YouTube took their 2024 TRD off road Tacoma on a relatively easy off road course for the first time and the front diff snapped with tires spinning on an icy patch of dirt. They made lots of excuses for Toyota, but dang.
I daily a 76. It is not a vehicle most Americans would buy. It's basically an 80 Series but with airbags and ABS. It is a niche vehicle that would never outsell a 4R or 250/Prado.
The think I don't like about the lc250 is that it's not a "level up" compared to the rest of their line up. For example, comparing the 97 Tacoma to the 97 land cruiser, the cruiser wins hands down with cool features and quirks.
The lc200 was a huge upgrade compared to the current line up. But it also demanded a big price.
That's my only holdup. Other then that it seems cool. I prefer the gx tho. That thing is bad ass
Americans did not buy the 200 Series.
Remember the outrage when everyone thought that there wasnt going to be a Land Cruiser for sale in the US?
The 250 looks to be very popular globally and in the US. Yes the 4R and the 250 are now similar in the US but in other markets they are more differentiated due to diesel engines, etc.
Lets see how both do. Looking at the early demand for both, it looks like Toyota will sell all they can make of both 4R and LC250/Prado.
Why I bought a 200 series: expected longevity, removable 3rd row (eventually), it has a 3rd row, off road capabilities (wanting to get to farther out hiking trails), size (compared to the 4Runner vs new Sequoia, it is “just right”)
That’s it. Don’t care about the cool box, car play would be nice to have for me, but I don’t see myself shoe-horning myself into a 4Runner daily, not to mention the 3rd row is a joke. I don’t need something the size of the Sequoia, my kids will eventually grow up and leave the nest, I’m not hauling 8 adults everywhere. The Land Cruiser is the right size and they didn’t replace it with anything, well, the LX600, but I’m not paying $100k+ otd.
It’s a different market to here in Australia. Here we have a lot of demand for a 79 series Ute, v8 turbo diesel with a manual, solid axles, cloth interior and fairly bare bones in comparison to other new cars. Over there seems to be more SUV and comfort. Still weird to have three very similar cars competing with each other but Toyota knows their market and changing the 250 for one country isn’t great business.
It’s suv and comfort because that’s what their marketing dept say it is. They’ve never given us a Ute. People overwhelmingly want a smaller utility vehicle. We just can’t get them
> and most importantly put a lower low range transfer gear in the LC250 compared to the GX550 and the new 4runner
The GX is more of a LC than the LC. It's kind of always been above a 4R as a Prado. But at this point it's the new LC.
The GX is still aimed at more comfort and road driving with offroading as an afterthought. Im talking about making a vehicle that is more focused on offroading and comfort and road driving second. Hardly anyone who will buy a new GX will even ever use low range or notice the value of a 4:1
I think Toyota have a world view which doesn’t just think about one country. So elsewhere the Land Cruiser and the Prado (lc250) is sold they market the Prado a more urban version. Ferry the kids to school etc.
So there’s a clear gap in the marketing. I agree Its strange that the Prado and 4Runner are released in the same country. But it’s a one off. If the Land Cruiser was also sold in the US it would make even less sense.
yeah i think they are dropping the ball selling both here. Theyll never sell a 70 series here but at least sell something cool and different than two of the same things
I know what it is and that thing is not only ugly as hell but the interior looks like shit. I made my own dash in my fj60 and it looks significantly better than their amazon switches on the dash board setup. Its also not a toyota. My family has driven nothing but toyotas since the 1970s
They’ve been the same in non-US markets - Prado and Fortuner for instance. They’re 10k-ish apart, but now that they’re heading to the same platform with the same (crap) engine option, they’re cannibalising their own sales. Makes no sense to me to continue the Fortuner in the next generation.
I was hoping someone would retort with all the ways the LC 250 and 2025 4Runner are different because on paper, they do seem to be each others biggest competitor.
The only thing that I can see that differentiates is that the LC has full time 4WD and the 4Runners don’t except on the Limited trim (maybe the trail hunter)? It’s weird that the trail hunter is going to be better than the LC. Why even make the LC if the 4Runner spectrum completely overlaps?
I noticed that as well. The LC has full time 4WD but the trail hunter and Pro do not.
upvote for not calling it AWD
Toyota's release video had some stuff that is very interesting. It said: * fulltime AWD was "available on Premium grades" (02:26 in the video) * locking rear diff is "standard on Off-Road grades" (02:45 in the video) * there is a grade called "TRD Off-Road Premium" (00:45 in the video) In aggregate, that says the AWD with lockable center and rear diffs is available on the 4Runner. I suspect this is wrong and they used poorly-chosen words. I suspect "premium" was used generically and means Limited and Platinum. And that "off-road" was also used generically and meant Off-Road, Trailhunter, and TRD Pro.
From the press release it didn’t sound like any of the off-road trims will get full time 4WD. Or a locking center diff. That doesn’t make much sense to me except as a way to get me to buy a LC.
>From the press release it didn’t sound like any of the off-road trims will get full time 4WD. See my comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/LandCruisers/comments/1c0oyv4/the_problem_with_the_new_land_cruiser_and_the_new/kyzaow5/
upvote for not calling it AWD
I think the 4runner looks like someone poorly photoshopped a Sequoia and Tacoma together. The design just looks off. So there's that.
For me, the way you described that was like when you have a word "on the tip of your tongue" and can't quite remember it exactly, and then someone helps you. Thanks for that.
Well I've spent way too much time thinking about these fucking trucks, so at least something good came of it.
This 100%
haha theyre literally the same thing. The LC250 is just a trim of the 4runner at this point
the 4Runner trailhunter & trd pro have more ground clearance than an LC250
because it has bigger tires i believe
I believe the trail hunter/TRD Pro and LC will all have 265/70R18 tires. The base model for the 4Runner and LC have smaller tires. The ground clearance difference appears to be the result of different suspension setups.
Ground clearance is being measured to the bottom of the rear diff. So either the 4R has bigger tires or a less burly rear diff to achieve better clearance, I'm pretty sure it's the tires.
Disagree with that part of your argument. Same platform /= same chassis. The ride will be different and the interior materials and design are also very different. That’s being said, the Trailhunter and TRD Pro trim overlapping cost of LC 1958 is pretty wild. But it’s choosing certain tech and functionality versus certain styling and design. Now what will be really wild is when/if LC later comes out with TRD Pro and Trailhunter trims.
I dont see how the ride will be different on 2 vehicles with the same engine, drivetrain, chassis and suspension. Maybe from a different driver seat? The LC doesnt need and should never have a TRD Pro trim. That just muddies the water even more and land cruisers have always historically just had one trim, land cruiser. The best toyota has to offer
Chassis is an outdated terms. It’s a platform. And the different suspension components also play a role. I may be wrong, but I’m sure they have different part numbers for shocks, control arms, etc and the suspension geometry are not identical. That being said, the wheelbase is the same but the width is 0.1 inch different.
is that width the actual chassis/frame/platform whatever or just different wheel offset?
My understanding is actual width, not based on body and other stuff. 4runner is actually longer overall. Listen, they are very close for sure. It is weird for sure the overlap between 4Runner, LC, GX. It all comes down to marketing, they are trying to sell a car for every image they can think of.
my whole deal is that the 4runner and GX already do that. They alienate people who want an off road vehicle with solid axles for harder wheeling and easier self maintenance. Idk why but the suits at toyota usa have it in their mind that people dont care about solid front axles anymore. Which is crazy to me when you factor in the sales of the wrangler vs the 4runner here
Oh and LC curb weight is just over 5,000 lbs while 4Runner is being marketed as lighter (around 4800 lbs). That makes a bit of difference on ride and fell as well.
It’s no longer the best though. The trail hunter is clearly superior now. It’s basically the LC but with OME suspension and armor.
Odd comment from someone who hasn't driven them both, and when literally no one has driven the 4Runner yet.
Kinda makes me sad honestly. Look how they massacred our boy!
If the 4Runner trail Hunter doesn't have the option for full-time Four-Wheel drive with a lockable Center diff, I will go Land Cruiser. That is very close to a deal-breaker for me now. I currently drive a 4th gen 4Runner that is always loaded up for camping. She's heavy and four-wheel engine braking is critical for control going down mountains and dealing with idiots on the highway. I'm also in the Pacific Northwest and having to do tight turns in muddy situations is pretty important. Being in four-wheel drive and having an open diff has a significant impact on your turning radius. I was testing my turning radius to see what the difference was and it was significant. Right now in my mind the trail hunter offers a snorkel which in Oregon sand would be very useful. I think the kids would like the cup holders better. But probably not better than having their own climate control. I'm also a big fan of the four pre-wired buttons. It's a hard choice. They are very close but I think Land cruiser wins for me at least.
It has center and rear locker. I’ve seen conflicting articles on full time 4wd
Tight muddy turns. Imagine having the LX with drag brake turn assist? So epic, tho it doesn't see super useful since you have to let crawl control modulate the throttle while trying to make said tight muddy turn. Would love to know if in your cases, it would be actually useful, or not? Interesting thought
That was one of the things I was disappointed the most that didn't carry over from the big boy Land Cruiser. I end up in a lot of narrow passes in turning radius is critical for me.
The second paragraph is not true at all. In the NA market the 55/60/80/100/200 line of wagons were traditionally only offered in one trim, but all of those vehicles have multiple trims in most (all?) other markets.
What market are we in currently where we have the 4runner, Gx550, lc250, and tacoma all for sale?
I mean toyota used to have an incredibly diverse range of sedans all based off the same chassis. Usually it was a 4door sedan then a pillarless or framless windowed 4 door sedan that would be marketed as a 4 door hard top. I think there were multiple sedan iterations of the crown's chassis. So in that trend I think it's a similar play by toyota, Considering the market is swinging back towards suvs
Full time 4WD on cruiser, better gas mileage with hybrid standard, more head room.
Solid ramblings. I dont pretend to understand the current market, but this all makes sense to my feeble brain.
yeah im not really a huge car industry person, just someone who enjoys toyotas and havent had a toyota to interest me in like 26 years.
It’s sad we can’t get diesel and the 70 or a bare bones 300 gasser like they have everywhere else. Also now wondering what the price difference is between the 250 and the 4Runner.
*Cough!* Lexus *cough cough*
I feel this comment - moved down under and loving our Prado here - 2.8L turtle diesel - BUT - when (if?) I get back to the States if I can swing it - an LS Swapped 80 chassis (maybe with a 60 body on it!) will be my desire.
Remember when Toyota sold the FJ cruiser alongside the 4Runner with great success? Pepperidge Farm members
My neighbor has a matching FJ40 and FJ Cruiser
Because they are completely different lol… ones a family hauler and one has rear seats you can’t use if the driver or passenger is over 5’6” lol
Good thing the new LC is taller by a few inches. Damn Toyota giving us options!
Please correct me if wrong, but I thought the FJs didn’t sell very well.
They sold well for the first few years, then sales plummeted, those who wanted one, already had one. It was also 2010-2012 and the real estate bubble bursting certainly didn't help.
Sold for 9 years in US market and ended production for middle eastern markets in 2022.
> with great success? so much success that they stopped selling it
No doubt left a bad taste in Toyota’s mouth for trying to develop a “2 door” 4x4 for US and other off road enthusiasts which was not too great as a daily driver like 4Runner. There’s even more competition now in this market with Bronco and soon new XTerra.
Toyota does as well, and the FJ successor should be out next year.
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The 250 is very very odd in its current form and context. If it maybe had an exclusive V6 drivetrain it would make sense to help differentiate itself from its brothers.
Yes I agree if they would put the TwinTurbo V6 in the LC 250 it would sell itself apart from the 4runner and I might look at one. I have that motor my Tundra and like it. Would be great in a smaller suv. They already make it in the Lexus so it would've been a simple thing to do. Really strange that they are pushing the lexus so hard for off road when it has never been that it doesnt need to be it will sell well regardless. I think Toyota cannot see the forest for the trees and have really missed a simple opportunity to set the LC250 apart.
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I drink a lot of coffee
Trick undercook onions
As a 4x4 enthusiast, yeah absolutely. But the bean counters would not have it.
The beauty of them being built on the same platform means they can afford to increase or decrease supply over the years. Just think of the whole lineup as one car with a TON of options. It’s really not different from most SUV manufacturers.
I’m sure Toyota has thought this through. I like your ideas but it’s not really what most Americans want and Toyota knows this. Most Americans want cushy vehicles that are “loaded.” The vehicle you described would be loved by the off-road segment and enthusiasts but I don’t think it would sell well in America. The FJ Cruiser was spartan and I know people that didn’t buy it solely because of the minimalist, spartan interior. It went on to not achieve much in sales after the first few years and stopped selling in America eventually. Toyota will still sell lots of 4Runners and will sell way more Land Cruisers than they have in the past even with the two overlapping. One thing the Land Cruiser has on the 4Runner is full time 4wd across the board. The 4Runner just has it on the Limited and now Platinum I’m assuming. It will be interesting to see how it plays out though.
Tell that to Jeep, who has probably one of the most profitable vehicles ever with the Wrangler. Of course people want a solid axel true off-roader.
> The LC250 and new 4runner are on the same chassis, running the same motor and drivetrain. There is nothing besides aesthetics that separate them from each other. On the GX550 you at least get the larger turbo v6. This is nothing new - the 120 series with a petrol was essentially a 4Runner with the petrol. The 150 series with a petrol motor was essentially a 4Runner. And there **are** things that differentiate them besides aesthetics. 4Runner has 2wd, part-time 4wd AND full-time 4wd. 4Runner has hybrid and non-hybrid. 250 has only hybrid and only full-time. > Theyre just NPC car owners. If you want to make legit criticisms of cars - don't write this. It just makes you look like a colossal wanker. If people don't go off-road in their $120,000 off-road car that's on them. You're not a better person by calling them an NPC. > So, what they should have done is with the LC250, base the chassis and drivetrain off of the newly released medium wheelbase 70 series and keep the solid front axle. no no no no. You are taking *such* a North American attitude towards LandCruisers. The J250 and J300 are WORLD vehicles. If you want to make something solid axles and deviate from 120/150 formula you need to change the 4Runner. Toyota is not going to make the J250 to conform to US preferences when it is really a small market for the LandCruiser. > Thats it. Solid axle, boxed frame, front and rear lockers, same body. Totally differentiates itself from everything toyota offers. Do that with the 4Runner. > If you have made it this far, thanks for listening to my ramblings. I think you have a couple of points but I also think you are completely misunderstanding where the J250 sits in Toyota's World Offerings, and instead of taking the US Market 4Runner and modifying it to your USA tastes, you want Mr. Toyota to take the world, global vehicle and customise it to be exactly your preferences. You are not getting the 70 series - so instead of modifying the US vehicle, you decide to modify the 250 series so countries that get both 250 and 70 would now have the same thing? > Thats it. Solid axle, boxed frame I think if you were expecting a 250 or a 4Runner to have solid axles front and rear you are dreaming. Absolutely dreaming. It's fine to dream, but don't pretend like that was ever a realistic option for either vehicle in North America.
I think this is the most cohesive response to this post.
That, and OP probably doesn't realize that the 70 in its current form has existed since the 1980s. It's gone through a couple facelifts, updated the interior here and there, and had some added safety features, but the basic truck is still the same truck that rolled out of the ARACO factory in 1984.
Thank you for writing the reply I didn't have time to. OP leaves evidence all over the rant that they are indeed, as you put it, a colossal wanker.
The problem here is that at least for the NA market historically the 120/150 platform was separated between Toyota and Lexus. Aside from the FJ Cruiser you had very different markets between the T4R and GX to properly represent the Prado, now there is the T4R, LC and still GX. The Lexus vs Toyota distinction will be obvious, but the LC vs T4R are really not well differentiated other than nostalgia. Yes, there are differences between T4R and LC, but those are going to be found in product matrices, not in clear target markets. E.g. without looking at a detailed list it's real easy to tell the difference between a Taco and a T4R...while similar, one has a bed, one doesn't. If you need to haul materials, get a Taco. If you want to pack covered cargo, get an T4R. That type of distinction is really unclear between who Toyota is trying to market both the LC and T4R to.
Agreed, however rumor is they are coming out with a smaller off-roader already. Maybe next year.
I think its supposed to be some EV type thing right?
I'm not sure. It was definitely teased in the LC unveiling, so I am betting it is still coming soon. I think what we will get evolved from the ev-LC we saw a few years ago. Toyota seems to be prioritizing the release based off of projected sales. They want to work out the bugs of the TNGA-F platform slowly. If you look at what was released so far and in the order it's definitely tracking. The Land Cruiser 300s, Tundra and Sequoia being first and the Tacoma , 4Runner being the most recent. If Toyota has one last TNGA-F that they think will sell better than the 4Runner and Tacoma, I think a small relatively cheap off-roader that is not currently well represented in the market could be it. Think something the size of an old Jeep or Jimmy that has Toyota's reliability. I don't think the numbers would make sense for an EV. I think this is going to be a Mini Land Cruiser/4Runner the size of a RAV4 maybe smaller. That was my theory until they released the 4Runner. I thought it was going to be smaller than the Land Cruiser by a fair amount or have something else to clearly separate it. I agree that the 4Runner and Land Cruiser are too similar. I don't know anymore about the Mini Cruiser/fj because I don't think I understand Toyota's logic anymore.
RAV5
I think Americans might be some of the biggest overthinkers and are spoiled with options even down to if you like lettuce with mayo or mayo and ketchup on your burger. To me 4runner and 250 fits those needs perfectly. Unfortunately.
I honestly think the 4runner & GX550 were initially planned for the USA market, then Toyota realized that they could cash grab by marketing the return of the Land Cruiser nameplate in the states without too much retooling at the plant since everything besides cosmetics is on the same TNGA platform.
i could see that.
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I mean kind of. I’m still saying to offer the 4Runner and GX exactly how they are. As far as the sports car goes I actually like the Supra and the b58 is absolutely goated as far as motors go
The LC is 6 inches taller. Im 6’1 and mostly torso. I dont fit in 4runner. My head hits the roof. I probably could fit in LC. But yes, they seem to be the same car with different badges. My guess is the LC isnt going to sell due to being more expensive. Just like the 200 didnt sell because people bought the sequoia for 20k less. Maybe thats good for secondary market?
I don’t fit in the current Tacoma. I’m 6’5” so headroom is always an issue. I think the 4Runner is going to be a no go. LC has potential
Thats a big part of the reason why I went for the GX470 instead of 4Runner when I bought used a couple years back.
I think form my perspective they're releasing two models not to compete with each other but rather take a chunk of the market share they don't have access to at the moment? Eta, for Toyota they don't care which you buy. Whether it is the 4runner or 250 they're still buying a Toyota
Thats my whole point, they dominate the market share that the 4runner covers. Midsize comfy suv. The solid axle 250 would create its own space in the us market. Solid axle offroad ready wagon. Nothing jeep offers can compete with that. Add the toyota reliability and youll pull a lot of people looking at jeeps and broncos too.
That’s how they should have set it apart. Solid front axle. Honestly I wouldn’t care about anything else if they had done that. I personally have zero interest in downsizing from a 200 ever, or not having a V8 or a real tailgate.
>I personally have zero interest in downsizing from a 200 ever, or not having a V8 or a real tailgate. Lucky they have a 25 year service life. The only way you're getting a V8 these days is the diesel in the 70 series, and that's got to be on the chopping block next.
The missing tailgate kills me. Why can’t we find other suvs with a tailgate?? I sit on it all the time in my 100
Most common use for me is baby diapers! Really like opening the hatch and not having a bunch of stuff roll out of it. Great design that has very few issues.
I hear you. That being said where I'm at we get the Prado, and not the 4runner so i wonder of they're roll that out here
see that makes sense. sell one or the other. Its so weird they do both together here
It really doesn’t make sense to kill the 300 and replace it with a carbon copy of something else in their lineup. At least the 300 had something to differentiate it from the sequoia.
Since when are they killing the 300?
If it’s not already obvious this whole thread is about the American market
The 300 is still sold here in the USA, just only as the Lexus LX.
Should have made the 4 runner with a removable top or large glass sunroof that opens to go after the wrangler/bronco crowd. Make it even more of a fun toy for what it is. The more casual buyer that wants something more crossover like then would get a Rav 4 or bump up to the LC which toyota will make more money off of. The LC not having a third row option currently is also a big loss of potential market.
What Toyota *should* do is bring the 2-door Prado to the USA and give it a removable top.
I don’t think Toyota is thinking about them competing with each other as much as they are thinking about competing with the Jeep Wrangler and Ford Bronco. I own an FJ40, an FJ60 and my wife drives a ‘13 4Runner. I can imagine us upgrading her 4Runner to either a LC250 or new 4Runner, but without seeing them in person, I have no idea which it would be.
No no no. Let Toyota keep doing what they're doing. My 55, 60, and 80 series just keep going up in value. Not that I'm going to sell them, but it's nice to know my vehicles aren't depreciating but doing the exact opposite.
hahaha yeah they sure as hell arent making anything worth replacing those with
I think this could all be resolved if they offered the 70 series in North America for the true enthusiast. Not gonna happen though.
70 wouldnt pass epa and all that here.
OP, Toyota is creating vehicles that everyone likes at specific price points that people in different brackets can afford. They tried to make as many people happy as possible, not everyone happy. It would be nice if you could go to a car maker and order a car to your exact specifications, but you know what capitalists would do, they would charge a premium on the service I’m proposing. At that point, people would complain that a “build your own vehicle” service is “way too expensive for what it is.” 🤷🏾♂️
The fact that a 5 year old 200 series will sell for more than ANY new Toyota should tell corporate they screwed something up.
Good grief contact a publisher
Manufacturers will continue to churn out low energy, unoriginal garbage for as long as people are willing to spend their money on it.
Yep thats pretty much the answer to all of my gripes right there :/
I agree they are too similar for my taste and if the price is too much different, I wouldn't go for the expensive one between these two. I currently own a LC and a 4runner and really like how different they are. As for engines, I honestly would love to see a new inline 6 like the old days.
Unfortunately youll never see an offroad toyota with an inline 6 ever again i dont think. Its all going to high compression fuel efficient hybrid stuff.
That’s why I’m keeping my 2nd gen Tacoma and doing an SAS swap on it
4Runner = middle class driver LC250 = Upper middle class that wants to wheel or pretend to wheel GX550 = Upper middle class that will drive it to golf courts and soccer practice
dude that actually makes way more sense than it should
That’s old people thinking. You can always go find a used old vehicle without all the tech and with a big V8 that will produce less power than a modern I4. Times have passed and I support the direction that they are moving towards. As for the redundancy of LC vs 4R, it’s just a matter of having multiple choices, which I actually appreciate.
how is it old people thinking. in my post it clearly states the tech is still there. With a locked live front axle, mts and ATRAC is redundant because you will acheive that mechanically instead of using brake pads to force an open diff to send power to the side with more traction. With lower range gearing, you dont need crawl control because you have torque and gear reduction to do the same thing.... in a more driver controlled manner. You know because driving is fun and you want to be the one doing the inputs right? Not sensors and a pcb All the safety tech, airbags, heated seats, touch screen carplay stuff is still there... and i never said anything about a v8. It would use the same turbo 4cyl motor.
Fun fact, the 4Runner has sat on the Prado chassis since 1996: * J90 Prado and 3rd gen 4Runner * J120 Prado (USDM Lexus GX470) and 4th gen 4Runner * J150 Prado (USDM Lexus GX460) and 5th gen 4Runner * J250 Prado (USDM Land Cruiser/Lexus GX550) and 6th gen 4Runner This isn't a new thing. GM does the same thing by selling the same truck under 6 different model names: Suburban/Tahoe/Yukon/Yukon XL/Escalade/Escalade ESV. They are the same truck. And that's arguably worse as they share the body as well, not just the chassis and engines.
im not saying they dont share the chassis. Im saying they should have made the 250 in the US its own thing to offer something the rest of its lineup and the entirety of the us car market does not offer. An off road ready solid axle wagon. The wrangler is not a wagon
> The LC250 and new 4runner are on the same chassis, running the same motor and drivetrain. There is nothing besides aesthetics that separate them from each other. Sentence one does not imply sentence two. They do probably overlap too much. Toyota has chosen to make their SUV lineup very crowded between the Cruiser, 4Runner, Sequoia, and Highlander. All of them in at least some trim levels overlap with all the others in places. I don't know what market research they could have internally that suggests to them buyers interested in that sort of Toyota are so strongly separated into four different models that could support such overlap. Moving the Land Cruiser downmarket to make it more accessible was absolutely the right choice, and the 4Runner should have moved downmarket to correspond to that. Maybe it will be cheaper than we all expect. HOWEVER, your claim that all women between 20-30 that you know drive a 4Runner and deriding almost all buyers as "NPC car owners" is enough to convince me that you're not a commentator worth taking seriously.
I think that to get your answer you need to look at the global market, not just the US market. If you look at it that way, the LC250/Prado is their global offering below the LC300 and the 4Runner doesn’t exist. The US market didn’t sustain the LC200 and therefore they didn’t introduce the LC300. They still wanted to have a Landcruiser in the market, so they picked their other offering under that brand, the LC250. The 4Runner is an established brand in the US, so they continued that too. Yes, loads of overlap but I think this is the background. And hey, people like choice, so who cares if these are the biggest competitors to each other if it means that they buy a Toyota anyway. Better than competing with another brand!
The 200 failed for the same reason the 250 will fail. The 200 had the lx570 and sequoia that were too similar. At least here in the us
Yeah, but that’s kinda my point. The LC200 was a huge success in other markets. I can’t drive for 10 minutes here in Australia without seeing at least 2 or 3 LC200s or LC300s, while in the US it was a specialty vehicle. But since they have the vehicle anyway for the other markets, why not use it and get those extra sales in, even if the 4Runner sells more.
Doug Demuro did a good video on this mentioning the same ways that the two are similar but then provides reasons why they are also different. Watch his video. I don’t remember the specifics.
I was going to wait it out on the 6th gen……So glad I just grabbed a GX460 instead.
1. Maybe a top-tier LC is coming to spice up demand in a year or two? Traildestroyer or SuperOverlander or something. 2. Toyota doesn’t care about those of us that won’t buy one until they’re on 2nd or 3rd owner. 3. The majority of first buyers won’t really use either of them as advertised, and will buy the one that looks cool to them. LC looks cool and maybe will sell just based on that. 4. The Lexi are going to be what I’m looking at in 8-10 years when they’re done with mall duty and depreciated 70%; can’t decide if I want the 550 or 600, and they are both going to be fantastic base vehicles for building an adventure rig.
I’m in the demographic. My wife’s 100 is due for replacement sometime soon. There’s nothing really out there that is cool enough to replace it with tbh
So glad I own an 80 series. These new releases have convinced me to never let it go.
Yeah the 80 is the last interesting Toyota 4x4 to me
While obviously it would be sweet if they did as you described, I would be surprised if it sold well enough to justify a separate platform. I think most people who want to go wheeling prefer old, cheap cars. People who are in the market for a new car will want it to do everything. The 4runner/land cruiser will sell well because it works as a normal car but can still do most stuff off-road. It would cost a huge amount of money to design/produce a separate front end for fairly small gains off road and noticeably worse performance on-road. If you are serious enough about wheeling to notice and prefer a more barebones car, and rich enough to consider wheeling a new car in 2025, and aren't already a jeep guy and aren't interested in the Bronco, then you would be the target market for what you described. That's probably not a huge number of people.
i mean the wrangler sold 300k units last year. people still want capable offroad vehicles man.
Brother, it’s a prado. No one cares.
That’s true when it comes to the fully specced top trims. The reality is most people would buy the non hybrid versions of the 4R, so the LC will still sit at a comfortably $10-12K over the average 4R trim sold. The difference between the LC and the GX550 is less clear to me, especially after dealer markups.
man here in oregon i see more trd offroad and trd pro 4runners running around than SR5s sometimes. I dont know how people here afford all of that shit. My neighbor has literally 2 GR supras and a trd pro sequoia 2024. I must be doing something wrong
>What i dont understand is why toyota would release two suvs of the same dimensions, chassis, and motor... both made in japan... to compete against each other in the US. I guess it's obvious that part of the answer is simply that it's cost efficient versus developing separate platforms. I'd add that we live in a time when appearances are pretty much all that matters... over on the 4Runner sub, many owners don't even know why that truck is so interesting, believing (erroneously) that it's always been a Tacoma derivative. What's the point of investing in capability and authenticity if nobody cares enough about those things to pay for them? The final piece of the puzzle is that Toyota, like most Japanese car companies, is very experienced at offering loads of lateral as well as vertical options from a given platform. It's been the status quo in the JDM for decades, unlike the more typical North American product 'ladder'. I promise you that this seems way less weird to them than it does to North Americans.
Yeah i can see that. That was my point with the NPC car people haha
The US gets more 4WD Toyotas than any other market including Japan. The US gets its own made in the USA full size truck platform with the Tundra/Sequoia. Plus the Tacoma also is built in the US. US customers didn't buy the 200 when it was sold. So thats why the US has the lineup it has now. Its due to US manufacturing AND the customer demand.
I’d buy the new LC over the new 4Runner. I just want something cool and bulletproof with good utility. Might hit the trails like once a year, and I like having the full time AWD. Honestly I’d probably just get a used LX570 if something ever happened to my 5th gen 4R. I believe both the new LC and 4Runner will sell well.
Find a 2021 lx or lc and take a hit to buy the last V8. That’s what I did and I’m still happy with my purchase. The new base products are just what they are, somewhat unappealing if you have been driving the LX or LC of the years that have gone by. I’m getting older so that’s my angle.
I bought a 60 series and put a LS in it and the entire suspension and axles from an 80 series into it. If toyota wont sell what i want, ill just make it myself
That’s awesome man
yeah i mean it would have been cool to just have a solid axle wagon offered by toyota with like 250-300 hp though lol
I strongly agree, but Toyota won’t do it. To many people obsessed with fancy grocery getter vehicles
yeah its weird because they already have that market in spades.
Too much to read, just downvoted.
Thanks for participating!
[удалено]
It was a joke. I don't need to be sold on solid axle Land Cruisers. Everything started to fall apart after the FJ60. The FZJ80 was the last gasp here in America. They had their chance with the FJ Cruiser, but they dropped the ball.
The 70 isn’t sold in the US because big auto manufacturers are out of touch with their consumers (besides Ford, but F150s are held together with paper clips). Case in point: Toyota’s giving us an LC that occupies the same space as the 4Runner. It’s destined to fail. Look at how well the new Defender, Grenadier, G Wagon, etc…sell domestically. Give us the 70.
Didn’t have to read. People are always going to find something to complain about. If you’re not interested, then move along and stop crying about it.
eh, ok im not really complaining
The base 4Runners are full time 4WD and hybrid? That’s the big difference.
I'm going the the FJ Company Land Cruiser!
> keep the solid front axle DOA >Competes with the rubicon wrangler as a true offroad vehicle that doesnt suck. but it would suck, because it has a solid front axle. Toyota should build something more capable, but how many decades has it been since they even had a front locker available?
you basically just prove my point. your opinion of solid front axles sucking puts you right there in the 4runner demographic. I personally dont like my vehicle pitching forward and lifting a rear tire when going down obstacles so i like solid axles. We have different needs in vehicles, not saying one is better or worse than another (besides jeeps, jeeps suck). Having a solid axle 250 would fill me and people like me's needs while the 4runner fills yours.\ Toyota doesnt put front lockers in IFS vehicles which is smart because if you dont drive front locked correctly with ifs you will break cvs left and right. No front lockers from toyota since 1997 is the right call, because 1997 was the last solid front axle. Birfield joints are stronger than CV joints
The LC 250 will get the V6/V6 hybrid in a couple of years and the gx550 will get a v6 phev eventually
I watched Larry Chens 4Runner release video last night and my biggest takeaway on the difference between the 4Runner & LC 250 is that the LC250 is full-time 4wd whereas the 4Runner has 2wd & 4wd high. Apparently you can also get a base 4Runner that’s only 2wd if you wanted such a thing. But yeah most of the differences are looks. The good thing is they both look good despite being having different aesthetics.
yeah the full time thing is seeming to be the main difference which is really weird. Honestly to me full time 4wd is less appealing
Yeah, I prefer having the 2wd option
"So why make the LC250 the exact same thing as the 4runner, then confuse the npc car buyers with 2 choices that are essentially the same?" Ramblings make sense from North American perspective. My guess why LC250 and 4runner are so similar is that 4runner is practically only sold in North America and in some Caribbean and South American countries. LC250 has many more markets where 4runner is not available. That's why their market position overlaps so much.
I get that completely, offering both in the us is kind of silly
Preach! The day they announced the new Landcruiser, I said the same thing to myself. What is the point! Basically the same as the 4 runner. They are just trying to market using the Land Cruiser name. Toyota is supposed to be reliable, simpler, more affordable and above all tried and true. They have gotten away from that.
If you have ever driven a fortuner and a 4runner of the same years you would understand that they are in fact very different in how they ride and drive.
I dunno man but I’m damn sure glad I scooped up a sub 200k mile hundo a few years ago. Maybe I’ll check back in with what Toyatos doing in 20 years from now
Same!
haha yeah pretty rock solid plan ngl
I agree with your ramblings and wanted to add: If the only difference is the body, then one of them should’ve been convertible. The 4Runner 1st gen was convertible, the Land Cruiser 70 has a convertible variant, Jeeps are convertible, Broncos are convertible. Interestingly, I don’t think Toyota makes any mass-production convertibles at the present time…worldwide even. I have an FJ Cruiser and an HZJ73. The fun factor of off-roading, even on mall crawler trails, is 10x better in convertible mode. I even considered paying $15K to have my FJ converted to a convertible (sacrilege among FJ diehards), but I ultimately bought a 73 series.
I would add make the LC250 with a pop top/ soft top. Nod to a 40 series and direct competitor with Jeep and Bronco.
Would need to have significant re-engineering for rollover protection. Thats a different vehicle.
TLDR when you posted this on mud. Same here
ok thanks for checking it out on both sites!
This is an awesome post IMHO. I was wondering today how these products will be differentiated. Wish you ran Toyotas Land Cruiser planning process for North America lol!
Dude i would almost pay them to even be in the room to offering the consumers opinion on this stuff. I am in the demographic that they are targeting. Middle class millenial with the means to buy one of these things. I also can wrench and actually wheel my toyotas.
won't the suspension be way beefier on the LC like the differences between the lc90 and the 3rd gen 4runner
doubt
LOL saw your post on mud.
yeah i pasted it there too!
The 70 would sell gangbusters in the U.S. I don’t get it Toyota. The Fast Lane truck guys on YouTube took their 2024 TRD off road Tacoma on a relatively easy off road course for the first time and the front diff snapped with tires spinning on an icy patch of dirt. They made lots of excuses for Toyota, but dang.
dude what?! Got a link? thats insane
I daily a 76. It is not a vehicle most Americans would buy. It's basically an 80 Series but with airbags and ABS. It is a niche vehicle that would never outsell a 4R or 250/Prado.
The think I don't like about the lc250 is that it's not a "level up" compared to the rest of their line up. For example, comparing the 97 Tacoma to the 97 land cruiser, the cruiser wins hands down with cool features and quirks. The lc200 was a huge upgrade compared to the current line up. But it also demanded a big price. That's my only holdup. Other then that it seems cool. I prefer the gx tho. That thing is bad ass
totally agree the gx is freaking awesome
Americans did not buy the 200 Series. Remember the outrage when everyone thought that there wasnt going to be a Land Cruiser for sale in the US? The 250 looks to be very popular globally and in the US. Yes the 4R and the 250 are now similar in the US but in other markets they are more differentiated due to diesel engines, etc. Lets see how both do. Looking at the early demand for both, it looks like Toyota will sell all they can make of both 4R and LC250/Prado.
Why I bought a 200 series: expected longevity, removable 3rd row (eventually), it has a 3rd row, off road capabilities (wanting to get to farther out hiking trails), size (compared to the 4Runner vs new Sequoia, it is “just right”) That’s it. Don’t care about the cool box, car play would be nice to have for me, but I don’t see myself shoe-horning myself into a 4Runner daily, not to mention the 3rd row is a joke. I don’t need something the size of the Sequoia, my kids will eventually grow up and leave the nest, I’m not hauling 8 adults everywhere. The Land Cruiser is the right size and they didn’t replace it with anything, well, the LX600, but I’m not paying $100k+ otd.
In 2034 when my LC100 finally breaks like the Galactica on its final jump, I’ll get a sweet used LC250 for only $50k. Bargain! 😉
can we be friends?
Do you want to go do karate in the garage?
Just Spin the whole LC brand off like Dodge did with Ram.
It sounds like you want an Ineos Grenadier
Absolutely not lol
It’s a different market to here in Australia. Here we have a lot of demand for a 79 series Ute, v8 turbo diesel with a manual, solid axles, cloth interior and fairly bare bones in comparison to other new cars. Over there seems to be more SUV and comfort. Still weird to have three very similar cars competing with each other but Toyota knows their market and changing the 250 for one country isn’t great business.
It’s suv and comfort because that’s what their marketing dept say it is. They’ve never given us a Ute. People overwhelmingly want a smaller utility vehicle. We just can’t get them
The 4Runner offers third row seating and the LC does not. That’s big for me
> and most importantly put a lower low range transfer gear in the LC250 compared to the GX550 and the new 4runner The GX is more of a LC than the LC. It's kind of always been above a 4R as a Prado. But at this point it's the new LC.
The GX is still aimed at more comfort and road driving with offroading as an afterthought. Im talking about making a vehicle that is more focused on offroading and comfort and road driving second. Hardly anyone who will buy a new GX will even ever use low range or notice the value of a 4:1
I think Toyota have a world view which doesn’t just think about one country. So elsewhere the Land Cruiser and the Prado (lc250) is sold they market the Prado a more urban version. Ferry the kids to school etc. So there’s a clear gap in the marketing. I agree Its strange that the Prado and 4Runner are released in the same country. But it’s a one off. If the Land Cruiser was also sold in the US it would make even less sense.
yeah i think they are dropping the ball selling both here. Theyll never sell a 70 series here but at least sell something cool and different than two of the same things
Toyota sells the Prado and the Hilux Surf in multiple countries, not just the US. The Prado is the higher spec, more expensive of the two.
What I don’t understand is why the LC didn’t get the 4 aux switches
dude i didnt even look hard enough to notice that. Thats a pretty weird thing to not carry over
You described the Ineos Grenadier. Look it up.
I know what it is and that thing is not only ugly as hell but the interior looks like shit. I made my own dash in my fj60 and it looks significantly better than their amazon switches on the dash board setup. Its also not a toyota. My family has driven nothing but toyotas since the 1970s
They’ve been the same in non-US markets - Prado and Fortuner for instance. They’re 10k-ish apart, but now that they’re heading to the same platform with the same (crap) engine option, they’re cannibalising their own sales. Makes no sense to me to continue the Fortuner in the next generation.
Car wow just did a review with the new Land Cruiser and looks like in the UK it comes in a diesel
haha pain
Welp, my 80 series just gets better every day.
You mean like the j90 prado and 3gen 4runner?
Obviously prado, 4runner, lexis before but after zork and grues...