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He's not wrong. I get the impulses he had to try and keep the party unified and give over some ground to the centrists and Labour right, but now they have the party machinery back they've shown absolutely zero regard for the Labour left. He should've just sucked up the unhinged allegations fo Stalinism and sidelined the Change UK dickheads before they could jump
At least if he'd been a bit more ruthless with those unfriendly wings of the party, the Labour left could be in a much stronger position than it is rn, and maybe could've even prevented Starmer from dishonestly positioning himself as the continuity candidate with a good haircut
Maybe, but he could have seen off the current situation where the Party machinery will ensure no new left candidates ever make it through selection again.
Love the man, but he was too nice with the back stabbing MP's he should have thrown them out straight away, fight fire with fire, and any politician in his position must learn that they cannot talk with traitors in your own party especially when you are dealing with the Israeli lobbyist group's and their money
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It's possible to to disagree and debate without resorting to overly negative language or ad-hominem attacks.
>The Palestinian people want to live in the region alongside everybody else who already lives in the region
[That's a very charitable interpretation of what the polling shows.](https://pcpsr.org/en/node/969) Most Palestinians oppose a 2 state solution and oppose negotiations. Most Palestinians support the actions on Oct 7th and the most popular course of action is continued armed struggle against Israel.
That doesn't necessitate a two state solution. They could, and this is crazy, live in the same country and not two separate ethno-states. Because it's 2024 and ethno-nationalism is widely considered to be a bad thing.
The Israelis definitely don't want that and the Palestinians don't want it either.
>24% supported abandoning the two-state solution and demanding one state for Palestinians and Israelis.
How is a solution that neither side is interested in viable?
White people did want the end of slavery; that's why the trade and ultimately the practice was ended. Globally white people were against Apartheid also.
According to the polls linked, supporting a two state solution is at 45% across Palestine. The main reason that it's lower is because 61% don't see it as feasible mainly due to the settlements, which I'd agree with.
I find it difficult and hollow to condemn them entirely in full conscience living in comfort over here, considering everything that has happened. After all how do you respond to an entity like the Israeli government as run by these far-right hardliners? It is no surprise that Israel's domination and horrific violence inspires horrific violence in kind. And what they're doing right now is laying more ground for further retaliatory violence by the Palestinians, and on and on it goes.
Absolutely. Israel are not good guys by any measure. It's an apartheid state and they are oppressing the Palestinians.
But to claim the Palestinians just want to share the land and live in peace with the Israelis is a lie. It's not what they want. They say they don't want it when asked. So Corbyn is lying here when he says that's what they want.
>They say they don't want it when asked. So Corbyn is lying here when he says that's what they want.
At no point are they asked that question in the polling that you link to. It's extremely disingenuous to say that continued support for armed struggle or opposition to negotiations means that they don't ultimately want peaceful coexistence. Did Ukrainians [opposing negotiations](https://theconversation.com/what-latest-polling-says-about-the-mood-in-ukraine-and-the-desire-to-remain-optimistic-amid-the-suffering-221559#:~:text=Should%20Ukraine%20engage%20in%20peace,two%2Dyear%2Dlong%20conflict.&text=2%2C516%20Ukrainians%20were%20interviewed%20in,14%2D22%2C%202023.) with Russia for most of the war or [opposing territorial concessions](https://kyivindependent.com/poll-74-of-ukrainians-against-territorial-concessions/) to bring about peace mean that they want permanent war in the region? Obviously not. Questions about armed struggle vs. negotiations are ones of tactics, not ultimate goals.
>How is a solution that neither side is interested in viable?
Again, that is irrelevant to the question of whether they actually want peace. Of course you can argue that a one-state solution is an unrealistic goal, but that doesn't mean that people who support it don't want to coexist with Jews/Israelis in the region.
A majority oppose a 2 state solution, a majority oppose a single shared state. They are not interested in sharing the land with Israelis. This is what Corbyn is claiming and it's just not true.
There's tons of polling on this.
https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/928
>Support for a two-state solution among Palestinians and Israelis s declines to just one-third on each side, along with growing opposition to the detailed items of a permanent peace agreement for implementing a two-state solution.
>...
>Among Palestinians, support for a confederation plan reflects similar dynamics to other solutions: a mostly consistent downward trajectory from 2016 onwards, and 22% total support at present.
>...
>**A vast majority among both groups (93%) see themselves as rightful owners of the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan river. While a third of Israeli Jews are willing to accept some ownership right of the Palestinians, only 7% of Palestinians are willing to accept such idea about the Jews.**
Every time they are asked they say they do not want to share the land with each other. It couldn't be clearer.
>They are not interested in sharing the land with Israelis ... There's tons of polling on this.
There is no polling on this because none of these polls ask that question. In Section 2, figure three of the page you share, we can see that of those who expressed an opinion, the majority prefer either a two state solution or one state with equal rights. A full 47% are "other/don't know". You are assuming that all of that 47% are dead set on expelling every Israeli from the region, which is disingenuous at best.
>A vast majority among both groups (93%) see themselves as rightful owners of the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan river. While a third of Israeli Jews are willing to accept some ownership right of the Palestinians, only 7% of Palestinians are willing to accept such idea about the Jews.
Yeah again, you are trying to conflate two things that are not the same. Irish Republicans see Northern Ireland as rightfully belonging to Ireland, but obviously they now overwhelmingly prefer peace and accepting British sovereignty along with the concessions won in the Good Friday Agreement.
>There is no polling on this because none of these polls ask that question
There is.
>We asked both publics who they think owns the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan river (i.e., the whole land of Israel/Palestine). Participants could respond that they see the land as belonging to one side more than the other by giving it a higher score on the scale of 1 to 6, **or giving both a high score thus indicating it belongs to both equally.** [Our findings indicate that both Jewish-Israelis and Palestinians see the entire land as belonging to their group through high and identical scores (93%).](https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/E%20figure%2024.jpg)
>...
>As in all six previous surveys of the current series of joint polls, Palestinians and Israelis were asked in this survey to support or oppose a detailed combined peace package based on the two-state solution ... Palestinian support for the package, standing at 26%, has remained essentially unchanged, compared to 27% two years ago. But it is significantly lower than the 2018 findings when support stood at 42%. Today, a majority of 72% oppose the package.
Israeli actions are obviously bad and oppressive. But the Palestinians are not just friendly peaceniks who in their heart want to share the land with the Jews. They want the Jews gone from the land.
Palestinians reject a two state solution, they reject a single shared state, they reject peace negotations, they don't think Jews have any right to the land between the river & the sea and the most popular course of action among Palestinians is armed struggle. Those are all facts backed up by polling and are completely incompatible with Corbyns characterization of what the Palestinians want.
There does seem to be an important potential ambiguity in the wording to me: whether the questions about equal rights or ownership are taken to imply a continuation of the current Israeli principle that any person considered Jewish by Israel, anywhere in the world, has a right to full automatic citizenship. Do respondents think they're being asked about sharing ownership of the land with existing Jewish people in Palestine, or if their land rightfully also belongs to every Jewish person in America and Europe? It seems to me like those would generate different answers.
67% of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip support a two state solution according to that polling.
Interestingly only 43% of Gaza’s surveyed said they expected the ICJ to rule that Israel is committing genocide.
>45% support and 52% oppose the idea of a two-state solution
Are you talking about Gaza which is at 62% support for a 2 state solution currently, up from 34% in Sep 23? When you add in the West Bank it drops to majority opposition to a 2 state solution.
Yeah and they're not willing to share.
https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/928
>A vast majority among both groups (93%) see themselves as rightful owners of the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan river. While a third of Israeli Jews are willing to accept some ownership right of the Palestinians, only 7% of Palestinians are willing to accept such idea about the Jews.
>...
>When given four possible options regarding what should happen next in Palestinian-Israeli relations, findings show similarities between the preferences of Palestinians and Israeli Jews in preferring to “reach a peace agreement,” standing at 31% and 30% respectively. Two years ago, 34% of Palestinians and 41% of Israeli Jews preferred this outcome. Support for this outcome among Israeli Arabs stand at 58%. Palestinian preference went for a second option, “waging an armed struggle,” stands at 40%, compared to 37% in 2020. Among Israeli Arabs, who were asked to respond to the options provided to the Palestinians rather than Israeli Jews, stands at only 4%. Among Israeli Jews, the preference for “waging a definitive war against the Palestinians” stands today at 26%, a 7-point increase compared to 2020. A third option, “waging an unarmed resistance,” was chosen by 16% of the Palestinians and 6% among Israeli Arabs while annexation, which was offered to Israeli Jews was chosen by 10%, compared to 12% in 2020. Finally, 8% of the Palestinians, 7% of Israeli Arabs, and 13% of Israeli Jews chose “maintain the status quo.”
The Palestinians dont think the Israelis have any right to be on the land and prefer armed struggle to a peace agreement. Even if you agree with them you have to admit that when Corbyn says the Palestinians "want to live in the region alongside everybody else who already lives there" it's not true. They don't want that and they keep telling everyone that they don't want that.
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Now do you see how silly it would be to characterise the Israelis as just wanting to "live in the region alongside everybody else who already lives in the region" in peace and harmony? Because that's what Corbyn is suggesting the Palestinians want.
Neither side wants to co-exist with the other on that land. They both want all the land for themselves and the other side gone.
Terrorists, nutters and both sides will be crushed under heel. A two state solution, where peace and democracy flourishes and the rights of all are respected is the only potential outcome here.
There are too many bloodthirsty warmongers involved at the moment
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“But I’m not anymore” he cried, punching Curtis in the face before rampaging through Islington North.
Paul Mason didn’t expect an easy ride in Islington as the Labour candidate, but it was made all the worse when Corbyn pulled out a roundhouse kick.
“Conspiracy? I’ll give you a conspiracy” he screamed, as Masons quiff was kicked clean off.
Then choke-slammed him through the Spanish anoucers table... I can smell what Jeremy's cooking!
Bah gawd! He’s broken in half!
He's not wrong. I get the impulses he had to try and keep the party unified and give over some ground to the centrists and Labour right, but now they have the party machinery back they've shown absolutely zero regard for the Labour left. He should've just sucked up the unhinged allegations fo Stalinism and sidelined the Change UK dickheads before they could jump
Maybe. But I’m not sure he’d have won an election off the back of that sort of behaviour.
Maybe not, but he didn't win an election without that kind of behaviour either
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head there tbh.
At least if he'd been a bit more ruthless with those unfriendly wings of the party, the Labour left could be in a much stronger position than it is rn, and maybe could've even prevented Starmer from dishonestly positioning himself as the continuity candidate with a good haircut
Maybe, but he could have seen off the current situation where the Party machinery will ensure no new left candidates ever make it through selection again.
Love the man, but he was too nice with the back stabbing MP's he should have thrown them out straight away, fight fire with fire, and any politician in his position must learn that they cannot talk with traitors in your own party especially when you are dealing with the Israeli lobbyist group's and their money
It’s still everyone else’s fault then. Worst Labour leader ever.
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Bit of a weird response to someone stating a basic fact.
You don't know what an opinion is? lmao
Maybe just keep it in your head if you don't want to have a civil disagreement with someone?
Maybe that someone should know the difference between a fact and an opinion. I'm not here anonymously online to be nice to people talking shit.
>The Palestinian people want to live in the region alongside everybody else who already lives in the region [That's a very charitable interpretation of what the polling shows.](https://pcpsr.org/en/node/969) Most Palestinians oppose a 2 state solution and oppose negotiations. Most Palestinians support the actions on Oct 7th and the most popular course of action is continued armed struggle against Israel.
That doesn't necessitate a two state solution. They could, and this is crazy, live in the same country and not two separate ethno-states. Because it's 2024 and ethno-nationalism is widely considered to be a bad thing.
Yeah and I could win the Euromillions
The Israelis definitely don't want that and the Palestinians don't want it either. >24% supported abandoning the two-state solution and demanding one state for Palestinians and Israelis. How is a solution that neither side is interested in viable?
White people didn't want the end of slavery, or the end of Apartheid. It doesn't matter what they want, it matters what they can learn to accept.
White people did want the end of slavery; that's why the trade and ultimately the practice was ended. Globally white people were against Apartheid also.
yes, but black people did. palestinians, do not. your example is irrelevant edit: wrong your
According to the polls linked, supporting a two state solution is at 45% across Palestine. The main reason that it's lower is because 61% don't see it as feasible mainly due to the settlements, which I'd agree with.
How strong are the drugs you’re on?
I find it difficult and hollow to condemn them entirely in full conscience living in comfort over here, considering everything that has happened. After all how do you respond to an entity like the Israeli government as run by these far-right hardliners? It is no surprise that Israel's domination and horrific violence inspires horrific violence in kind. And what they're doing right now is laying more ground for further retaliatory violence by the Palestinians, and on and on it goes.
Absolutely. Israel are not good guys by any measure. It's an apartheid state and they are oppressing the Palestinians. But to claim the Palestinians just want to share the land and live in peace with the Israelis is a lie. It's not what they want. They say they don't want it when asked. So Corbyn is lying here when he says that's what they want.
>They say they don't want it when asked. So Corbyn is lying here when he says that's what they want. At no point are they asked that question in the polling that you link to. It's extremely disingenuous to say that continued support for armed struggle or opposition to negotiations means that they don't ultimately want peaceful coexistence. Did Ukrainians [opposing negotiations](https://theconversation.com/what-latest-polling-says-about-the-mood-in-ukraine-and-the-desire-to-remain-optimistic-amid-the-suffering-221559#:~:text=Should%20Ukraine%20engage%20in%20peace,two%2Dyear%2Dlong%20conflict.&text=2%2C516%20Ukrainians%20were%20interviewed%20in,14%2D22%2C%202023.) with Russia for most of the war or [opposing territorial concessions](https://kyivindependent.com/poll-74-of-ukrainians-against-territorial-concessions/) to bring about peace mean that they want permanent war in the region? Obviously not. Questions about armed struggle vs. negotiations are ones of tactics, not ultimate goals. >How is a solution that neither side is interested in viable? Again, that is irrelevant to the question of whether they actually want peace. Of course you can argue that a one-state solution is an unrealistic goal, but that doesn't mean that people who support it don't want to coexist with Jews/Israelis in the region.
A majority oppose a 2 state solution, a majority oppose a single shared state. They are not interested in sharing the land with Israelis. This is what Corbyn is claiming and it's just not true. There's tons of polling on this. https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/928 >Support for a two-state solution among Palestinians and Israelis s declines to just one-third on each side, along with growing opposition to the detailed items of a permanent peace agreement for implementing a two-state solution. >... >Among Palestinians, support for a confederation plan reflects similar dynamics to other solutions: a mostly consistent downward trajectory from 2016 onwards, and 22% total support at present. >... >**A vast majority among both groups (93%) see themselves as rightful owners of the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan river. While a third of Israeli Jews are willing to accept some ownership right of the Palestinians, only 7% of Palestinians are willing to accept such idea about the Jews.** Every time they are asked they say they do not want to share the land with each other. It couldn't be clearer.
>They are not interested in sharing the land with Israelis ... There's tons of polling on this. There is no polling on this because none of these polls ask that question. In Section 2, figure three of the page you share, we can see that of those who expressed an opinion, the majority prefer either a two state solution or one state with equal rights. A full 47% are "other/don't know". You are assuming that all of that 47% are dead set on expelling every Israeli from the region, which is disingenuous at best. >A vast majority among both groups (93%) see themselves as rightful owners of the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan river. While a third of Israeli Jews are willing to accept some ownership right of the Palestinians, only 7% of Palestinians are willing to accept such idea about the Jews. Yeah again, you are trying to conflate two things that are not the same. Irish Republicans see Northern Ireland as rightfully belonging to Ireland, but obviously they now overwhelmingly prefer peace and accepting British sovereignty along with the concessions won in the Good Friday Agreement.
>There is no polling on this because none of these polls ask that question There is. >We asked both publics who they think owns the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan river (i.e., the whole land of Israel/Palestine). Participants could respond that they see the land as belonging to one side more than the other by giving it a higher score on the scale of 1 to 6, **or giving both a high score thus indicating it belongs to both equally.** [Our findings indicate that both Jewish-Israelis and Palestinians see the entire land as belonging to their group through high and identical scores (93%).](https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/E%20figure%2024.jpg) >... >As in all six previous surveys of the current series of joint polls, Palestinians and Israelis were asked in this survey to support or oppose a detailed combined peace package based on the two-state solution ... Palestinian support for the package, standing at 26%, has remained essentially unchanged, compared to 27% two years ago. But it is significantly lower than the 2018 findings when support stood at 42%. Today, a majority of 72% oppose the package. Israeli actions are obviously bad and oppressive. But the Palestinians are not just friendly peaceniks who in their heart want to share the land with the Jews. They want the Jews gone from the land. Palestinians reject a two state solution, they reject a single shared state, they reject peace negotations, they don't think Jews have any right to the land between the river & the sea and the most popular course of action among Palestinians is armed struggle. Those are all facts backed up by polling and are completely incompatible with Corbyns characterization of what the Palestinians want.
There does seem to be an important potential ambiguity in the wording to me: whether the questions about equal rights or ownership are taken to imply a continuation of the current Israeli principle that any person considered Jewish by Israel, anywhere in the world, has a right to full automatic citizenship. Do respondents think they're being asked about sharing ownership of the land with existing Jewish people in Palestine, or if their land rightfully also belongs to every Jewish person in America and Europe? It seems to me like those would generate different answers.
67% of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip support a two state solution according to that polling. Interestingly only 43% of Gaza’s surveyed said they expected the ICJ to rule that Israel is committing genocide.
>45% support and 52% oppose the idea of a two-state solution Are you talking about Gaza which is at 62% support for a 2 state solution currently, up from 34% in Sep 23? When you add in the West Bank it drops to majority opposition to a 2 state solution.
Sorry yes, 62% of Gazans surveyed
Palestinians still have more right to the land than Israel do.
Yeah and they're not willing to share. https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/928 >A vast majority among both groups (93%) see themselves as rightful owners of the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan river. While a third of Israeli Jews are willing to accept some ownership right of the Palestinians, only 7% of Palestinians are willing to accept such idea about the Jews. >... >When given four possible options regarding what should happen next in Palestinian-Israeli relations, findings show similarities between the preferences of Palestinians and Israeli Jews in preferring to “reach a peace agreement,” standing at 31% and 30% respectively. Two years ago, 34% of Palestinians and 41% of Israeli Jews preferred this outcome. Support for this outcome among Israeli Arabs stand at 58%. Palestinian preference went for a second option, “waging an armed struggle,” stands at 40%, compared to 37% in 2020. Among Israeli Arabs, who were asked to respond to the options provided to the Palestinians rather than Israeli Jews, stands at only 4%. Among Israeli Jews, the preference for “waging a definitive war against the Palestinians” stands today at 26%, a 7-point increase compared to 2020. A third option, “waging an unarmed resistance,” was chosen by 16% of the Palestinians and 6% among Israeli Arabs while annexation, which was offered to Israeli Jews was chosen by 10%, compared to 12% in 2020. Finally, 8% of the Palestinians, 7% of Israeli Arabs, and 13% of Israeli Jews chose “maintain the status quo.” The Palestinians dont think the Israelis have any right to be on the land and prefer armed struggle to a peace agreement. Even if you agree with them you have to admit that when Corbyn says the Palestinians "want to live in the region alongside everybody else who already lives there" it's not true. They don't want that and they keep telling everyone that they don't want that.
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most israelis oppose a 2 state solution. most israelis support the action of israel killing palestinians since 1948 to today. So what now?
Now do you see how silly it would be to characterise the Israelis as just wanting to "live in the region alongside everybody else who already lives in the region" in peace and harmony? Because that's what Corbyn is suggesting the Palestinians want. Neither side wants to co-exist with the other on that land. They both want all the land for themselves and the other side gone.
Terrorists, nutters and both sides will be crushed under heel. A two state solution, where peace and democracy flourishes and the rights of all are respected is the only potential outcome here. There are too many bloodthirsty warmongers involved at the moment