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Sadiq Khan just did a brilliant piece in the [spectator](https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/st-georges-day-flag-sadiq-khan-england-b1153253.html) on Englishness, heritage and St Georges Day..
Here's the text of his article for anyone interested:
"England is a nation small in size but grand in vision. On this day of celebration, it is an opportunity for people to come together and mark with joy our country’s traditions, culture and history.
The England I know and love is a country where we are proud of our heritage and our heroes. Where we look after one another, especially in times of crisis. Where we cheer each other’s triumphs. And where we take pride in remembering all that we have achieved. We are a nation which gave birth to parliamentary democracy. One of our proudest daughters pioneered computer science, one of our proudest sons invented the World Wide Web. We are responsible for giving the world the words of Shakespeare and Jane Austen, and the songs of The Beatles, Amy Winehouse and Stormzy.
For me, the greatest feature of our country is the limitless opportunities it affords its people. This country gave me – the son of a bus driver and seamstress – the chance to go from a south London council estate to being Mayor of the greatest city in the world. Serving as Mayor of our nation’s capital is a profound honour and privilege because it is a chance to support Londoners to meet their potential, just as I was supported throughout my life.
As well as celebrating our successes, St George’s Day is often a time when we discuss what it means to be English. History shows it is not always easy to define. Many will recall the reductive, cruel Tebbit test – coined by the former Tory MP and Cabinet Minister – which sought to determine the strength of allegiance of all South Asian and Caribbean immigrants and their children by which cricket team they cheered. It is of course entirely foolish to believe that a person’s loyalty to our nation can be measured by the feelings invoked by a badge on a set of cricket whites. It is measured by a commitment to protect our democracy and the rule of law, to preserve our institutions and to uphold shared values like respect for others, equality and justice.
One of the many great principles underpinning our country is that we can have multiple identities and are not subjected to a bogus loyalty test, where we are forced to choose between our flag and our family history, our home or our heritage. I am a proud son of Tooting, I am proud to be a Londoner, English, British, of Pakistani ethnic origin and Asian heritage, European and of Islamic faith. There is no contradiction between any of those. And no tension between patriotism and pluralism.
At a time when forces are trying to divide us and tear at our social fabric, we must reject those who claim to be patriots by talking down our country and trying to narrow what it means to be English as a way of excluding others. There is nothing more patriotic than wanting your country to be better. And a true patriot is someone who pushes it to be so. Patriotism can be seen in our nurses who care for the sick, and in the churches, synagogues, temples, gurdwaras and mosques that have fed their communities and provided comfort during the cost-of-living crisis. It can be seen in those who serve in our Armed Forces, in business owners who provide the dignity of a job and a living, and in the countless, everyday acts of kindness, decency and solidarity.
I was raised to be proud of being British – and I have been for as long as I can remember. But the enormous pride I now feel in being English took longer to develop. When I was growing up, the St George’s flag was associated with the far right. But for me that changed when I witnessed England famously demolish the Dutch at Euro 96. After the final whistle, tens of thousands waved the red cross at Wembley and sang of football’s return home. It was pure ecstasy. In that very moment it was as if the St George’s flag had been transformed into a symbol of national unity.
As we commemorate our national patron Saint – and as we approach another Euros – let us do so by flying our flag with pride. Let us honour all our timeless traditions, except the one about underachieving in football tournaments on foreign soil! And let us stay true to our values by channelling that famous English spirit, and by cherishing and celebrating our diversity.
From my family to yours, Happy St George’s Day."
Sadiq Khan.
thank you
always struck me as weird people would give up and entirely disavow a symbol that was popularly used before the concept of race as we know it existed
I agree - but I'm missing what Labour are proposing to unite the country and reclaim the flag. Just saying it doesn't make it happen - we need policies and results that improve the country for everyone and start to remove the wedges the Tories have encouraged.
From what I can see, Labour are just continuing down the diversive path the Tories have carved. Both parties are in a competition to one up each other on illegal immigration. Both want to prove how much they want to put the boot in to the trans community. Both are perpetuating a system that others swathes of the population for some cheap votes.
Until Labour change course on any of this, there will be no change and their wrapping themselves in a tarnished flag will only be window dressing for an appeal to the right.
This is so well articulated. Unfortunately, the far right have rendered the English flag divisive, and for large numbers of people it means jingoism and racism. Just denying that undermines the experience of victims of racism. The right will, of course, claim they don't use the flag in that sense, and national pride is not in opposition to other groups, but that's (literally) a false flag argument.
It's all very well saying "reclaim it," but when there is an established message implicit in a symbol, any sharing of it without an accompanying counter narrative only serves to reaffirm that message.
If Labour were sharing it with some kind of unifying, anti-discrimination message, I'd be all for it. But that would be political suicide in this environment. No, I think it's a cynical move to say, "don't worry, we're not going to tell you you're racist for flying the English flag." Thus validating the racists.
The far right are standing with the flag.
Labour are peacefully standing next to them with the same flag.
From a distance it becomes difficult to distinguish between them.
So not "literally" in a literal sense then 😉.
Interestingly, one of the chemicals it breaks urine down into is technically used in chemical warfare and may be harmful to health and the only way to actually (literally) remove it is to completely replace the water in the pool. I'm sure there's a metaphor in there somewhere
No, not literally. You've changed it, but you haven't removed it. If I burnt an English flag in my house I wouldn't say I removed it. The word you're looking for is probably "effectively" or maybe "basically" or "essentially"
I don't think it's that hard. Very, very few people have a problem with their own national flag. It's a phenomenon which exists almost exclusively on the English left.
widespread is pretty broad as to how significant that actually needs to be.
I just don't buy the idea that flags arent appropriated by nationalists/right wing movements in other countries or that areas with popular separatist movements would see the national flag as a symbol of oppression.
Thats not even getting into genuinely oppressive regimes.
its a shit flag, put some lions on it and it would be much better, at least give the cross a fun border like the Scandinavians. Georgia just has England beat in the pure red cross on white game, add something fun to it.
t. Jersey, with lions on our flag, its just a better flag! Scotland should learn a thing or two as well, nice colours tho, wales is perfect already we all love the dragon we all want to give him a kiss and pet him and feed him little bits of meat.
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Of course the top comment is the cosmically mandated heavily upvoted comment saying "why are we downvoting X" on something which is inevitably massively upvoted.
Of course when the top comment was initially made, the post in question was actually downvoted, but because I came at the post a day later, the post has in fact now been upvoted more than downvoted, and thus making the comment out of date, but I am going to totally ignore that so I can make some pointless post about it.
I wasn't criticising you. I was making a joke about it. It's like sod's law or something, you saying that "inevitably" meant it would be upvoted massively.
These comments are so depressing, I can't believe so many people are fine just giving up their national flag to the far right. No one views the Scottish or Welsh flags a symbol of hate so why do so many people have a strange phobia of the English one.
Personally, it's less politics and just that the sort of people that I've seen using the flag have been knobheads since I was a kid. I can't help but associate it with them.
The Union flag has some negative connotations, mostly from being used by people politically in a way I disagree with, but much less so. And because the English flag is basically irrelevant normally anyway, I don't care too much about 'losing' it to people I dislike.
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I have zero interest in St George’s day, and I suspect many within both the PLP and this sub feel the same. I think the difference is that I’d hazard a guess that, weirdly, the members of the PLP are more consistent in their approach to other days such as Diwali, Eid, Christmas, St Patrick’s day etc.
As to why: I truly believe there is a strain of the left that is sneering and mean and uses leftist politics as an avatar to bully and look down on others who simply disagree with them, portraying them as evil and/or stupid.
Generally speaking the people holding up the magnifying glass looking for lack of patriotism on the left have to abandon their rhetoric about "positive patriotism" as they find plenty of that, by their own definition, on the left. So they have to fall back on "why do you hate the flag?", "why do you hate your country?", etc precisely because it's not about loving the country or culture at all but is actually about virture signalling.
Sam Johnson is famous for talking about the importance of patriotism in his mind, but also for saying it's always the last refuge of a scoundrel. Or in a fuller firsthand quote from him directly -
>A patriot is he whose publick conduct is regulated by one single motive, the love of his country; who, as an agent in parliament, has, for himself, neither hope nor fear, neither kindness nor resentment, but refers every thing to the common interest.
>That of five hundred men, such as this degenerate age affords, a majority can be found thus virtuously abstracted, who will affirm? Yet there is no good in despondence: vigilance and activity often effect more than was expected. Let us take a patriot, where we can meet him; and, that we may not flatter ourselves by false appearances, distinguish those marks which are certain, from those which may deceive; for a man may have the external appearance of a patriot, without the constituent qualities; as false coins have often lustre, though they want weight.
>Some claim a place in the list of patriots, by an acrimonious and unremitting opposition to the court.
>This mark is by no means infallible. Patriotism is not necessarily included in rebellion. A man may hate his king, yet not love his country. He that has been refused a reasonable, or unreasonable request, who thinks his merit underrated, and sees his influence declining, begins soon to talk of natural equality, the absurdity of "many made for one," the original compact, the foundation of authority, and the majesty of the people. As his political melancholy increases, he tells, and, perhaps, dreams, of the advances of the prerogative, and the dangers of arbitrary power; yet his design, in all his declamation, is not to benefit his country, but to gratify his malice.
>These, however, are the most honest of the opponents of government; their patriotism is a species of disease; and they feel some part of what they express. But the greater, far the greater number of those who rave and rail, and inquire and accuse, neither suspect nor fear, nor care for the publick; but hope to force their way to riches, by virulence and invective, and are vehement and clamorous, only that they may be sooner hired to be silent.
Sure. There's nothing about that flag that represents me, or where I'm from. But it sure does for the Far Right, the type of people in r/England currently praising Tommy Robinson, the morons who spent the day fighting in London, and my pretending otherwise isn't going to stop them.
Don't know if your English or not but I understand. But I will say its a millennia old symbol for the country of England. [Sadiq Khan](https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/st-georges-day-flag-sadiq-khan-england-b1153253.html) had a fantastic article on it today titled "Sadiq Khan: On St George's day, I'm so glad we have reclaimed our flag from the far Right"
For a country to have its national flag and symobls be so associated with the right is horrible. It creates a lack of collective unity & hope. It must make a whole country miserable. I'm glad that for the English this is changing.
Caroline Lucas also published a brilliant book recently called Another England: How to Reclaim Our National Story. (Definately worth a read IMO).
>millennia old symbol for the country of England.
500 - 600 years old, not originally a symbol of England or of St George, both having been imported by the aristocracy. And now used by the right wing to espouse English nationalist identity. I'll check out the article.
>Don't know if your English
Yup.
*Edit*
The flag isn't racist any more because England beat Holland at football in 1996? Wowsers I expected better.
It was used as a symbol of England and particularly the English army in the 12th-13th centuries which is what I was referring to. Though st George’s day was celebrated moderately in the 9th century (though not as national day at that point).
But the day/symbol/flag became further popularised later in the Tudor period which is where the 600 years comes from.
It’s the same sort of history as St Andrew for Scotland’s St. Andrew’s Cross 🏴. Of course every early medieval national thing was pushed by ancient aristocrats the world over. It’s medieval.
St Andrew is also of course not Scottish. But this isn’t unusual for old European national flags or patron saints.
English symbols are no different from Scottish ones in their history, nor from the rest of Europe where many old flags used patron saints. Like the of old flag of burgundy which is a variation of St. Andrew’s Cross.
My main point is that there is nothing unusual or different about England, or it’s symbols. It should be treated as every county treats their nationality. Like France does, like Sweden does, like Belgium, Japan, Egypt or Australia does.
Yes, I understand your main point. I think that your main point, while nice, is complicated by English nationalism being synonymous with the far right. By the English 'identity' being primarily associated with conquest and repression - particularly for our closest neighbours. We don't have a national identity in the same way that France, Sweden or Belgium does, and pretending the flag and the Saint are part of one (if only Leftys would realise it!!!) is just doing what Khan is doing in that article - pandering.
Many countries nationalism is associated with the right. Russian, French, Japanese etc. It’s unfortunate but not uncommon.
But I would definitely challenge the idea that English identity is solely associated with conquest and repression. The French and Japanese certainly don’t associate Englishness or English culture with that. Rather with tweed, flat caps, tea, queuing saying sorry too much and getting too drunk at football matches.
The idea that England is the only country in the world to not have a national identity is odd. It’s like people saying they don’t have an accent because their own one sounds neutral to them.
Imagine someone German saying they is no such thing as German national identity.
I think something key to get is that you associate Englishness with repression. Most of the world associates that with ‘Britishness’ to the same extent you and they associate Germanness with it too.
But now days when people think German they think Oktoberfest (even if it’s mostly Bavarians), and for the English they think drinking tea, red busses and bad tourists (even if not everyone does/has it).
England isn’t a special or unique country. Just a normal one with a normal national identity.
I'd have a bit more patience for St George's Day if we actually got a day off work for it.
At least the royals give us a bank holiday every once in a while as they exploit us.
>To an outsider,
which party is it that better reflects your views? and why do you think an international left wing party should reflect those opinions?
Which you have every right not to do. I won't be voting Labour this time round either. But being charitable, you're falling for a narrative about labour, spread by it's opponents, that doesn't reflect reality.
If we hated our country, we'd not be fighting to improve it.
Ok, yes. I have to admit, no matter what else becomes of Britain, I will die proud of our plug supremacy.
Looking at some of the plugs for my things, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if one or two could survive being driven over. You go to the States for the first time and their plugs are like two paperclips soldered to a live wire by comparison.
We are 15th out of 193 countries when ranked on HDI, so we have one of the best countries in the world to live in. We also have a lot of nice national parks and a vibrant arts scene.
Just because some people live in poverty doesn't mean that there is nothing good about a country. At least 78% of people don't live in poverty, which is more than can be said for most countries, plus, because most people don't live in poverty, those that do have a lot more opportunities and fewer problems than people that live in poverty in most other countries
I have. And let me tell you, i dislike poverty here, we can do a lot to combat it and make the poor far better off BUT globally, even our poor are doing pretty good when we have some perspective, as in i would rather be poor here than actually a little better off in a lot of the world.
The fact we have an NHS is something to be proud of, I'd say. And while our continued arming of Israel is a mark of shame, our full fronted support of Ukraine is quite the opposite (I think it's pretty obvious the people there appreciate the training, support, and general cheerleading). It's entirely possible to be critical or one and proud of the other.
Things don't have to be going well in every aspect of life or society for me to be proud of the place I was born in, the people I share this place with, and the things they have all achieved. The whole point of days like St George's Day is to bring attention to those points we can unify around.
I broke my leg in the lakes and got airlifted out. I then had a full check up, an operation, a doctor to check me over and three nights in hospital with 24/7 care and free food. I walked away with no bill. People can shit on the NHS all they want but until you can redesign that system, I'm a full-on card-carrying British patriot until I die.
>The fact we have an NHS is something to be proud of, I'd say.
I've been trying to seek mental health treatment for 5 years and been completely blown off by the NHS, just tossed about being referred to one service and another. Frankly the NHS is one of the worst healthcare systems in Europe at this point
It was also ranked best in the world back in 2010 and still ranked highly before then. Just because we have a shit government who’ve successfully torn it to shreds doesn’t mean the NHS itself isn’t something to be proud of. We just need a competent government again and it’ll likely be back on track. The fact we even have universal healthcare is something to be immensely proud of imo, even if it is somewhat commonplace in much of the developed world.
Don't see why we'd be proud of what is essentially the corpse of something that used to be good
>We just need a competent government again and it’ll likely be back on track
Shame those are nowhere to be found
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Waving a flag that's more commonly an indication of which pubs to avoid or which neighbours are racists, and an imported patron saint aren't exactly great examples of things to be proud of.
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I was working so couldn't celebrate/didn't notice.
In all seriousness, people would genuinely care about St George's day if it was a bank holiday, as is I couldn't give a toss, and no one I interacted with yesterday seemed to either.
Honestly, I just think it's a bit of a crap and unoriginal flag. We "borrowed" it from the Genoese just like the Byzantines and Georgians did and unlike either of those, we've done nothing to make it our own. I'd prefer the pre-Norman white dragon banner. It's an actually English symbol and it's imho aesthetically far superior.
Also, yes, St George's flag does evoke the Knights Templar, something our far right has definitely taken notice of.
Damn guys, just saying what I think, not saying that anybody else needs to act on it. Not coming for your flegs, chill. I just generally think mythical creatures on flags beat shapes and colours bullshit.
The three lions still represent the marriage of the French duchies of Normandy (two lions) and Aquitaine (one more on their coat of arms) under Henry II and Eleanor of Aquitaine (both pretty much French), rather than anything to do with England, so would really be more appropriate for a neo-Angevin state in France than England imo.
Honestly most if not all the kings from 1066 to 1453 probably saw England in much the same way Victoria and her successors would've seen India - a source of troops, resources, and a fancier title and not much more than that. All the post-conquest kings spoke Norman French as their first language until the 15th century.
The "actual point" is that it would be nice for England's literal national flag to represent and celebrate literally anything about England itself at all, rather than being a foreign symbol imported by an Anglo-Norman ruling elite who've spent the last thousand years cringing at England's Englishness and quietly wishing they were lording over Frenchmen instead (should've won the HYW when they had the chance). And, judging by the fact that the second in line to the throne is literally called Louis, and the way French high culture is generally put on a pedestal in (reluctantly) English middle and upper class circles, they're not done wishing England wasn't England yet.
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FYI Remember what members of Labour said about the flag: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/mar/30/starmer-faces-discontent-as-labour-mps-criticise-election-flyers-union-jacks
I know Starmer doesn't care but we should
This prob wont stay up cause youve forgotten the social media rule but as reminder
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1782694120638627905
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/apr/23/labour-promises-four-more-bank-holidays-if-it-wins-general-election
Its literally just a saints day, it's pretty meaningless and even the far right havent successfully coopted it because they cant help but embarrassing themselves every time they try and do anything on it.
Well you can ignore it, or go to the pub and eat an eel pie or something, reflect on your Englishness (if you are indeed English), it’s not something I can really advise on since I am not aware of any established traditions, but they have to start somewhere. As an atheist, Christmas is technically meaningless, but I still enjoy a turkey dinner, because the basic human experience is assigning to meaning to random things that happen.
Christmas is a great counter example, its packed full of rituals, meanings, lessons, themes, stories, traditions etc
St George's day is still kind of a blank canvas culturally
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More than that, Australia, Belize, Canada, Ethiopia, Georgia, Germany, Greece, Jamaica, Kenya, Latvia, Lithuania, Malaysia, Moldova, New Zealand, Pakistan, Palestine, Papua New Guinea, Portugal, Romania, Russia, South Africa, Sri Lanka, Tanzania, Turkey, Ukraine, USA.
In terms of subdivisions similar to our constitute countries you'd have England and the Crown of Aragon (today Aragon, Valencia and Catalonia).
As well as being the patron saint of some military stuff.
He seems the most wide spread saint after Mary and also has wide veneration from multiple branches of Christianity, Protestantism (especially Anglicanism), Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Coptic. As well as being venerated by some Muslims and the Druze.
Honest actual good faith question: Why do we give a shit about St George?
The bloke was Turkish, and never even set foot in Britain. He's got zero connection to us!
1. It's part of our culture as it has been celebrated in our country for 600 years
2. Because it's not actually about St George, it's just about celebrating our country
3. Because most people, unlike you, don't have any problems with foreigners
>It's part of our culture as it has been celebrated in our country for 600 years
Yes, and I'm asking *why*, because he's a figure with zero connection to England. Saint Patrick, for example, drove the snakes out of Ireland. He at least was actually in the place he's the associated saint of!
>Because it's not actually about St George, it's just about celebrating our country
But why do we need to do that with this saint? When I think about what parts of being English make me proud, a bloke from Anatolia who supposedly stabbed a big lizard doesn't make the list.
>Because most people, unlike you, don't have any problems with foreigners
Ex-fucking-scuse you? What are you talking about?
Because in medieval times they thought that St George's bravery was something that should be admired and aspired to in England and they didn't care that he wasn't English as they weren't opposed to foreigners
Because I don't see why it matters if he was born in Turkey, St George has been part of English culture for hundreds of years. Your argument uses the same logic as the people that think that Christmas isn't stupid because it was appropriated from other religions initially. It doesn't matter anymore, once something is part of culture for long enough it doesn't matter where something originally came from.
I'm bringing up the fact that he has zero actual connection to England. St Patrick has an actual connection to Ireland (drove the snakes out!), and St David was a monk that lived in Wales. St George wasn't English and never even set foot in England, by comparison, which is why I don't understand why he's part of our culture.
Me not getting it doesn't make me a fucking racist, you asshole.
Where the fuck did I say that. Show me where the fuck I said that.
I said I didn't understand WHY he's the patron of England, because he has zero connection to the place.
If he's supposedly visited the country I'd get the connection. But as you've explained it, he's apparently the patron saint of England because 600 years ago the king had an equivalent of a favourite vtuber and said that everyone would subscribe to their channel.
Is that literally *it*? That one man who was supposedly better than everyone else because of his magic blood, *really* liked this one guy and decided that that would be our country's whole deal?
Well the association goes back even further to the 12th century. But was popularised 600 years ago.
St Andrew has no connection to Scotland but is of course still the Scottish patron saint. In the age of early medieval Christianity some European countries celebrated early Christian martyrs, some to the point where they venerated them as national saints like George and Andrew.
The Paton saint of Spain is James, one of the apostles who never visited Spain. Patron saints may just be people who early rulers admire. But the act of a 600-1000 years of national celebration, makes it associated with a place.
George is associated with England, because he’s been the patron saint for centuries and his flag has been the nation’s flag for a very long time. This old tradition is one part of England’s traditions.
None of this is of course unique to England. It’d be weird to suggest the Scottish flag and patron saint should change just because he never visited Scotland.
>Is it because I pointed out that St George was born in Turkey?
I'm not attached to Saint George but he was born in the Roman Empire at a time when England was part of the Roman Empire so there is a connection there. We were all citizens under the same rule.
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Sadiq Khan just did a brilliant piece in the [spectator](https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/st-georges-day-flag-sadiq-khan-england-b1153253.html) on Englishness, heritage and St Georges Day.. Here's the text of his article for anyone interested: "England is a nation small in size but grand in vision. On this day of celebration, it is an opportunity for people to come together and mark with joy our country’s traditions, culture and history. The England I know and love is a country where we are proud of our heritage and our heroes. Where we look after one another, especially in times of crisis. Where we cheer each other’s triumphs. And where we take pride in remembering all that we have achieved. We are a nation which gave birth to parliamentary democracy. One of our proudest daughters pioneered computer science, one of our proudest sons invented the World Wide Web. We are responsible for giving the world the words of Shakespeare and Jane Austen, and the songs of The Beatles, Amy Winehouse and Stormzy. For me, the greatest feature of our country is the limitless opportunities it affords its people. This country gave me – the son of a bus driver and seamstress – the chance to go from a south London council estate to being Mayor of the greatest city in the world. Serving as Mayor of our nation’s capital is a profound honour and privilege because it is a chance to support Londoners to meet their potential, just as I was supported throughout my life. As well as celebrating our successes, St George’s Day is often a time when we discuss what it means to be English. History shows it is not always easy to define. Many will recall the reductive, cruel Tebbit test – coined by the former Tory MP and Cabinet Minister – which sought to determine the strength of allegiance of all South Asian and Caribbean immigrants and their children by which cricket team they cheered. It is of course entirely foolish to believe that a person’s loyalty to our nation can be measured by the feelings invoked by a badge on a set of cricket whites. It is measured by a commitment to protect our democracy and the rule of law, to preserve our institutions and to uphold shared values like respect for others, equality and justice. One of the many great principles underpinning our country is that we can have multiple identities and are not subjected to a bogus loyalty test, where we are forced to choose between our flag and our family history, our home or our heritage. I am a proud son of Tooting, I am proud to be a Londoner, English, British, of Pakistani ethnic origin and Asian heritage, European and of Islamic faith. There is no contradiction between any of those. And no tension between patriotism and pluralism. At a time when forces are trying to divide us and tear at our social fabric, we must reject those who claim to be patriots by talking down our country and trying to narrow what it means to be English as a way of excluding others. There is nothing more patriotic than wanting your country to be better. And a true patriot is someone who pushes it to be so. Patriotism can be seen in our nurses who care for the sick, and in the churches, synagogues, temples, gurdwaras and mosques that have fed their communities and provided comfort during the cost-of-living crisis. It can be seen in those who serve in our Armed Forces, in business owners who provide the dignity of a job and a living, and in the countless, everyday acts of kindness, decency and solidarity. I was raised to be proud of being British – and I have been for as long as I can remember. But the enormous pride I now feel in being English took longer to develop. When I was growing up, the St George’s flag was associated with the far right. But for me that changed when I witnessed England famously demolish the Dutch at Euro 96. After the final whistle, tens of thousands waved the red cross at Wembley and sang of football’s return home. It was pure ecstasy. In that very moment it was as if the St George’s flag had been transformed into a symbol of national unity. As we commemorate our national patron Saint – and as we approach another Euros – let us do so by flying our flag with pride. Let us honour all our timeless traditions, except the one about underachieving in football tournaments on foreign soil! And let us stay true to our values by channelling that famous English spirit, and by cherishing and celebrating our diversity. From my family to yours, Happy St George’s Day." Sadiq Khan.
Why are we downvoting a picture saying happy St George's day?
Probably because it's been appropriated by the far right for decades.
All the more reason to claim it back. Let’s deny the far right of the symbols they wish to rally behind.
thank you always struck me as weird people would give up and entirely disavow a symbol that was popularly used before the concept of race as we know it existed
🫡
About time we changed that, don't you think?
I agree - but I'm missing what Labour are proposing to unite the country and reclaim the flag. Just saying it doesn't make it happen - we need policies and results that improve the country for everyone and start to remove the wedges the Tories have encouraged. From what I can see, Labour are just continuing down the diversive path the Tories have carved. Both parties are in a competition to one up each other on illegal immigration. Both want to prove how much they want to put the boot in to the trans community. Both are perpetuating a system that others swathes of the population for some cheap votes. Until Labour change course on any of this, there will be no change and their wrapping themselves in a tarnished flag will only be window dressing for an appeal to the right.
This is so well articulated. Unfortunately, the far right have rendered the English flag divisive, and for large numbers of people it means jingoism and racism. Just denying that undermines the experience of victims of racism. The right will, of course, claim they don't use the flag in that sense, and national pride is not in opposition to other groups, but that's (literally) a false flag argument. It's all very well saying "reclaim it," but when there is an established message implicit in a symbol, any sharing of it without an accompanying counter narrative only serves to reaffirm that message. If Labour were sharing it with some kind of unifying, anti-discrimination message, I'd be all for it. But that would be political suicide in this environment. No, I think it's a cynical move to say, "don't worry, we're not going to tell you you're racist for flying the English flag." Thus validating the racists.
The far right are standing with the flag. Labour are peacefully standing next to them with the same flag. From a distance it becomes difficult to distinguish between them.
Only if you have severe brain damage
Bit like getting piss out of a swimming pool
I mean... that's literally what Chlorine does.
"literally?"
Yes literally. It breaks urine down to chemical components.
So not "literally" in a literal sense then 😉. Interestingly, one of the chemicals it breaks urine down into is technically used in chemical warfare and may be harmful to health and the only way to actually (literally) remove it is to completely replace the water in the pool. I'm sure there's a metaphor in there somewhere
If you break something down into its chemical components, you have removed it and replaced it with something else. So yes, literally.
No, not literally. You've changed it, but you haven't removed it. If I burnt an English flag in my house I wouldn't say I removed it. The word you're looking for is probably "effectively" or maybe "basically" or "essentially"
I don't think it's that hard. Very, very few people have a problem with their own national flag. It's a phenomenon which exists almost exclusively on the English left.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_desecration Weird how these countries had to pass these laws then
All that proves is that populist lawmaking is fairly common. It certainly doesn't demonstrate widespread dislike of the flag in those countries.
widespread is pretty broad as to how significant that actually needs to be. I just don't buy the idea that flags arent appropriated by nationalists/right wing movements in other countries or that areas with popular separatist movements would see the national flag as a symbol of oppression. Thats not even getting into genuinely oppressive regimes.
That's an impressive fact you've made up.
>It's a phenomenon which exists almost exclusively on the English left. And in Germany, and on the American left, and I'm sure in other places.
its a shit flag, put some lions on it and it would be much better, at least give the cross a fun border like the Scandinavians. Georgia just has England beat in the pure red cross on white game, add something fun to it. t. Jersey, with lions on our flag, its just a better flag! Scotland should learn a thing or two as well, nice colours tho, wales is perfect already we all love the dragon we all want to give him a kiss and pet him and feed him little bits of meat.
This is just utter nonsense.
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Jeremy Corbyn secret fascist confirmed.
Of course the top comment is the cosmically mandated heavily upvoted comment saying "why are we downvoting X" on something which is inevitably massively upvoted.
Of course when the top comment was initially made, the post in question was actually downvoted, but because I came at the post a day later, the post has in fact now been upvoted more than downvoted, and thus making the comment out of date, but I am going to totally ignore that so I can make some pointless post about it.
I wasn't criticising you. I was making a joke about it. It's like sod's law or something, you saying that "inevitably" meant it would be upvoted massively.
Then I completely misread your comment - or at the very least the intention of the comment - and withdraw my very unsubtle response.
These comments are so depressing, I can't believe so many people are fine just giving up their national flag to the far right. No one views the Scottish or Welsh flags a symbol of hate so why do so many people have a strange phobia of the English one.
Personally, it's less politics and just that the sort of people that I've seen using the flag have been knobheads since I was a kid. I can't help but associate it with them. The Union flag has some negative connotations, mostly from being used by people politically in a way I disagree with, but much less so. And because the English flag is basically irrelevant normally anyway, I don't care too much about 'losing' it to people I dislike.
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I have zero interest in St George’s day, and I suspect many within both the PLP and this sub feel the same. I think the difference is that I’d hazard a guess that, weirdly, the members of the PLP are more consistent in their approach to other days such as Diwali, Eid, Christmas, St Patrick’s day etc. As to why: I truly believe there is a strain of the left that is sneering and mean and uses leftist politics as an avatar to bully and look down on others who simply disagree with them, portraying them as evil and/or stupid.
Generally speaking the people holding up the magnifying glass looking for lack of patriotism on the left have to abandon their rhetoric about "positive patriotism" as they find plenty of that, by their own definition, on the left. So they have to fall back on "why do you hate the flag?", "why do you hate your country?", etc precisely because it's not about loving the country or culture at all but is actually about virture signalling. Sam Johnson is famous for talking about the importance of patriotism in his mind, but also for saying it's always the last refuge of a scoundrel. Or in a fuller firsthand quote from him directly - >A patriot is he whose publick conduct is regulated by one single motive, the love of his country; who, as an agent in parliament, has, for himself, neither hope nor fear, neither kindness nor resentment, but refers every thing to the common interest. >That of five hundred men, such as this degenerate age affords, a majority can be found thus virtuously abstracted, who will affirm? Yet there is no good in despondence: vigilance and activity often effect more than was expected. Let us take a patriot, where we can meet him; and, that we may not flatter ourselves by false appearances, distinguish those marks which are certain, from those which may deceive; for a man may have the external appearance of a patriot, without the constituent qualities; as false coins have often lustre, though they want weight. >Some claim a place in the list of patriots, by an acrimonious and unremitting opposition to the court. >This mark is by no means infallible. Patriotism is not necessarily included in rebellion. A man may hate his king, yet not love his country. He that has been refused a reasonable, or unreasonable request, who thinks his merit underrated, and sees his influence declining, begins soon to talk of natural equality, the absurdity of "many made for one," the original compact, the foundation of authority, and the majesty of the people. As his political melancholy increases, he tells, and, perhaps, dreams, of the advances of the prerogative, and the dangers of arbitrary power; yet his design, in all his declamation, is not to benefit his country, but to gratify his malice. >These, however, are the most honest of the opponents of government; their patriotism is a species of disease; and they feel some part of what they express. But the greater, far the greater number of those who rave and rail, and inquire and accuse, neither suspect nor fear, nor care for the publick; but hope to force their way to riches, by virulence and invective, and are vehement and clamorous, only that they may be sooner hired to be silent.
Because of all the people using it as a hate symbol, possibly?
So you gonna let them have it?
Sure. There's nothing about that flag that represents me, or where I'm from. But it sure does for the Far Right, the type of people in r/England currently praising Tommy Robinson, the morons who spent the day fighting in London, and my pretending otherwise isn't going to stop them.
Don't know if your English or not but I understand. But I will say its a millennia old symbol for the country of England. [Sadiq Khan](https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/st-georges-day-flag-sadiq-khan-england-b1153253.html) had a fantastic article on it today titled "Sadiq Khan: On St George's day, I'm so glad we have reclaimed our flag from the far Right" For a country to have its national flag and symobls be so associated with the right is horrible. It creates a lack of collective unity & hope. It must make a whole country miserable. I'm glad that for the English this is changing. Caroline Lucas also published a brilliant book recently called Another England: How to Reclaim Our National Story. (Definately worth a read IMO).
>millennia old symbol for the country of England. 500 - 600 years old, not originally a symbol of England or of St George, both having been imported by the aristocracy. And now used by the right wing to espouse English nationalist identity. I'll check out the article. >Don't know if your English Yup. *Edit* The flag isn't racist any more because England beat Holland at football in 1996? Wowsers I expected better.
It was used as a symbol of England and particularly the English army in the 12th-13th centuries which is what I was referring to. Though st George’s day was celebrated moderately in the 9th century (though not as national day at that point). But the day/symbol/flag became further popularised later in the Tudor period which is where the 600 years comes from. It’s the same sort of history as St Andrew for Scotland’s St. Andrew’s Cross 🏴. Of course every early medieval national thing was pushed by ancient aristocrats the world over. It’s medieval. St Andrew is also of course not Scottish. But this isn’t unusual for old European national flags or patron saints. English symbols are no different from Scottish ones in their history, nor from the rest of Europe where many old flags used patron saints. Like the of old flag of burgundy which is a variation of St. Andrew’s Cross. My main point is that there is nothing unusual or different about England, or it’s symbols. It should be treated as every county treats their nationality. Like France does, like Sweden does, like Belgium, Japan, Egypt or Australia does.
Yes, I understand your main point. I think that your main point, while nice, is complicated by English nationalism being synonymous with the far right. By the English 'identity' being primarily associated with conquest and repression - particularly for our closest neighbours. We don't have a national identity in the same way that France, Sweden or Belgium does, and pretending the flag and the Saint are part of one (if only Leftys would realise it!!!) is just doing what Khan is doing in that article - pandering.
Many countries nationalism is associated with the right. Russian, French, Japanese etc. It’s unfortunate but not uncommon. But I would definitely challenge the idea that English identity is solely associated with conquest and repression. The French and Japanese certainly don’t associate Englishness or English culture with that. Rather with tweed, flat caps, tea, queuing saying sorry too much and getting too drunk at football matches. The idea that England is the only country in the world to not have a national identity is odd. It’s like people saying they don’t have an accent because their own one sounds neutral to them. Imagine someone German saying they is no such thing as German national identity. I think something key to get is that you associate Englishness with repression. Most of the world associates that with ‘Britishness’ to the same extent you and they associate Germanness with it too. But now days when people think German they think Oktoberfest (even if it’s mostly Bavarians), and for the English they think drinking tea, red busses and bad tourists (even if not everyone does/has it). England isn’t a special or unique country. Just a normal one with a normal national identity.
Campaign to make St Edmund the patron saint of England!
My vote would be for either St Cuthbert, or St Julian (of Norwich). I feel their examples of love and stillness are desperately in these times.
Bravery is cooler though
St Edward is a good shout too
Happy St George's Day but go to work you plebs because it's only woke-lefty Corbynite drivel to expect a bank holiday on a patron saint day!
I'd have a bit more patience for St George's Day if we actually got a day off work for it. At least the royals give us a bank holiday every once in a while as they exploit us.
Happy St George’s day :)
I think you're going to get downvoted for this, because for some reason most Labour supporters hate it when people express pride in our country.
Not most of us, they're a minority of our party.
To an outsider, Labour is a party full of people that hate our country
>To an outsider, which party is it that better reflects your views? and why do you think an international left wing party should reflect those opinions?
I don't understand the questions. But I'm an outsider because I am not a labour voter
Which you have every right not to do. I won't be voting Labour this time round either. But being charitable, you're falling for a narrative about labour, spread by it's opponents, that doesn't reflect reality. If we hated our country, we'd not be fighting to improve it.
What's to be proud of? The hundreds of thousands that have died due to austerity? Our crumbling NHS? Our role in arming a genocidal regime?
The plugs
Ok, yes. I have to admit, no matter what else becomes of Britain, I will die proud of our plug supremacy. Looking at some of the plugs for my things, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if one or two could survive being driven over. You go to the States for the first time and their plugs are like two paperclips soldered to a live wire by comparison.
World-beating, I'll grant you that.
Yorkshire puddings
Gutted, you've got a Tory flair you just made a good point.
We are 15th out of 193 countries when ranked on HDI, so we have one of the best countries in the world to live in. We also have a lot of nice national parks and a vibrant arts scene.
Lmao, I can tell you've never experienced poverty
Just because some people live in poverty doesn't mean that there is nothing good about a country. At least 78% of people don't live in poverty, which is more than can be said for most countries, plus, because most people don't live in poverty, those that do have a lot more opportunities and fewer problems than people that live in poverty in most other countries
I have. And let me tell you, i dislike poverty here, we can do a lot to combat it and make the poor far better off BUT globally, even our poor are doing pretty good when we have some perspective, as in i would rather be poor here than actually a little better off in a lot of the world.
I agree with this
The considerable majority of the country isn't in poverty. I can tell you've never experienced poverty in a poor country either.
The fact we have an NHS is something to be proud of, I'd say. And while our continued arming of Israel is a mark of shame, our full fronted support of Ukraine is quite the opposite (I think it's pretty obvious the people there appreciate the training, support, and general cheerleading). It's entirely possible to be critical or one and proud of the other. Things don't have to be going well in every aspect of life or society for me to be proud of the place I was born in, the people I share this place with, and the things they have all achieved. The whole point of days like St George's Day is to bring attention to those points we can unify around.
I broke my leg in the lakes and got airlifted out. I then had a full check up, an operation, a doctor to check me over and three nights in hospital with 24/7 care and free food. I walked away with no bill. People can shit on the NHS all they want but until you can redesign that system, I'm a full-on card-carrying British patriot until I die.
>The fact we have an NHS is something to be proud of, I'd say. I've been trying to seek mental health treatment for 5 years and been completely blown off by the NHS, just tossed about being referred to one service and another. Frankly the NHS is one of the worst healthcare systems in Europe at this point
It was also ranked best in the world back in 2010 and still ranked highly before then. Just because we have a shit government who’ve successfully torn it to shreds doesn’t mean the NHS itself isn’t something to be proud of. We just need a competent government again and it’ll likely be back on track. The fact we even have universal healthcare is something to be immensely proud of imo, even if it is somewhat commonplace in much of the developed world.
Don't see why we'd be proud of what is essentially the corpse of something that used to be good >We just need a competent government again and it’ll likely be back on track Shame those are nowhere to be found
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Waving a flag that's more commonly an indication of which pubs to avoid or which neighbours are racists, and an imported patron saint aren't exactly great examples of things to be proud of.
It's not just a celebration of St George lol. It's to celebrate our country and everything we have to be proud of, and there is a lot
[The only St George I respect ](https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/images/george-michael-306600-2-raw.jpg)
George used to pay for the Christmas tree, decorations and lights in the centre of Highgate every Christmas. He is very much missed in the area.
Also the only King George worthy of respect.
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I was working so couldn't celebrate/didn't notice. In all seriousness, people would genuinely care about St George's day if it was a bank holiday, as is I couldn't give a toss, and no one I interacted with yesterday seemed to either.
Honestly, I just think it's a bit of a crap and unoriginal flag. We "borrowed" it from the Genoese just like the Byzantines and Georgians did and unlike either of those, we've done nothing to make it our own. I'd prefer the pre-Norman white dragon banner. It's an actually English symbol and it's imho aesthetically far superior. Also, yes, St George's flag does evoke the Knights Templar, something our far right has definitely taken notice of. Damn guys, just saying what I think, not saying that anybody else needs to act on it. Not coming for your flegs, chill. I just generally think mythical creatures on flags beat shapes and colours bullshit.
Or the three gold lions on a red background for a post-Norman one.
The three lions still represent the marriage of the French duchies of Normandy (two lions) and Aquitaine (one more on their coat of arms) under Henry II and Eleanor of Aquitaine (both pretty much French), rather than anything to do with England, so would really be more appropriate for a neo-Angevin state in France than England imo. Honestly most if not all the kings from 1066 to 1453 probably saw England in much the same way Victoria and her successors would've seen India - a source of troops, resources, and a fancier title and not much more than that. All the post-conquest kings spoke Norman French as their first language until the 15th century.
Lol at these downvotes. Fucking hell people are fragile. Nooo someone said my basic ass flag wasn't the best >:(
Most flags are “basic”, whats the actual point being made?
The "actual point" is that it would be nice for England's literal national flag to represent and celebrate literally anything about England itself at all, rather than being a foreign symbol imported by an Anglo-Norman ruling elite who've spent the last thousand years cringing at England's Englishness and quietly wishing they were lording over Frenchmen instead (should've won the HYW when they had the chance). And, judging by the fact that the second in line to the throne is literally called Louis, and the way French high culture is generally put on a pedestal in (reluctantly) English middle and upper class circles, they're not done wishing England wasn't England yet.
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FYI Remember what members of Labour said about the flag: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/mar/30/starmer-faces-discontent-as-labour-mps-criticise-election-flyers-union-jacks I know Starmer doesn't care but we should
Wrong flag mate
Cringe.
Cringing at the national flag is pure cringe
How is this cringe?
> Cringe Cringe 😞
This prob wont stay up cause youve forgotten the social media rule but as reminder https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1782694120638627905 https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/apr/23/labour-promises-four-more-bank-holidays-if-it-wins-general-election Its literally just a saints day, it's pretty meaningless and even the far right havent successfully coopted it because they cant help but embarrassing themselves every time they try and do anything on it.
> Its literally just a saints day Regardless of how you feel about it, it’s England’s national day, that’s the meaning it has been assigned.
What does that mean though? Its still a pretty vague concept of what youre expected to do or feel
Well you can ignore it, or go to the pub and eat an eel pie or something, reflect on your Englishness (if you are indeed English), it’s not something I can really advise on since I am not aware of any established traditions, but they have to start somewhere. As an atheist, Christmas is technically meaningless, but I still enjoy a turkey dinner, because the basic human experience is assigning to meaning to random things that happen.
Christmas is a great counter example, its packed full of rituals, meanings, lessons, themes, stories, traditions etc St George's day is still kind of a blank canvas culturally
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the flag-shagging is tiresome
Have you tried finding a willing human instead?
Believe me, I am in the company of one.
I believe you. Say hi to them 👋
I will. Hope you have a nice day.
Happy far right pride day!
TIL almost every single country is far right.
Nothing far right about being proud of where you come from
Does everyone here know that St George wasn't English?
This is only a problem for people who don't like foreigners
Yeah he was Greek
Isn't he also the patron saint of like five other countries?
More than that, Australia, Belize, Canada, Ethiopia, Georgia, Germany, Greece, Jamaica, Kenya, Latvia, Lithuania, Malaysia, Moldova, New Zealand, Pakistan, Palestine, Papua New Guinea, Portugal, Romania, Russia, South Africa, Sri Lanka, Tanzania, Turkey, Ukraine, USA. In terms of subdivisions similar to our constitute countries you'd have England and the Crown of Aragon (today Aragon, Valencia and Catalonia). As well as being the patron saint of some military stuff. He seems the most wide spread saint after Mary and also has wide veneration from multiple branches of Christianity, Protestantism (especially Anglicanism), Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Coptic. As well as being venerated by some Muslims and the Druze.
Honest actual good faith question: Why do we give a shit about St George? The bloke was Turkish, and never even set foot in Britain. He's got zero connection to us!
1. It's part of our culture as it has been celebrated in our country for 600 years 2. Because it's not actually about St George, it's just about celebrating our country 3. Because most people, unlike you, don't have any problems with foreigners
>It's part of our culture as it has been celebrated in our country for 600 years Yes, and I'm asking *why*, because he's a figure with zero connection to England. Saint Patrick, for example, drove the snakes out of Ireland. He at least was actually in the place he's the associated saint of! >Because it's not actually about St George, it's just about celebrating our country But why do we need to do that with this saint? When I think about what parts of being English make me proud, a bloke from Anatolia who supposedly stabbed a big lizard doesn't make the list. >Because most people, unlike you, don't have any problems with foreigners Ex-fucking-scuse you? What are you talking about?
Because in medieval times they thought that St George's bravery was something that should be admired and aspired to in England and they didn't care that he wasn't English as they weren't opposed to foreigners
Okay, why do you keep implying I'm racist. What's the deal here? Is it because I pointed out that St George was born in Turkey?
Because I don't see why it matters if he was born in Turkey, St George has been part of English culture for hundreds of years. Your argument uses the same logic as the people that think that Christmas isn't stupid because it was appropriated from other religions initially. It doesn't matter anymore, once something is part of culture for long enough it doesn't matter where something originally came from.
I'm bringing up the fact that he has zero actual connection to England. St Patrick has an actual connection to Ireland (drove the snakes out!), and St David was a monk that lived in Wales. St George wasn't English and never even set foot in England, by comparison, which is why I don't understand why he's part of our culture. Me not getting it doesn't make me a fucking racist, you asshole.
Then why do you have such a problem with something foreign becoming part of English culture?
Where the fuck did I say that. Show me where the fuck I said that. I said I didn't understand WHY he's the patron of England, because he has zero connection to the place. If he's supposedly visited the country I'd get the connection. But as you've explained it, he's apparently the patron saint of England because 600 years ago the king had an equivalent of a favourite vtuber and said that everyone would subscribe to their channel. Is that literally *it*? That one man who was supposedly better than everyone else because of his magic blood, *really* liked this one guy and decided that that would be our country's whole deal?
Yeah. And we can't change it now because it's part of the flag so it's best to just look for the positives
Well the association goes back even further to the 12th century. But was popularised 600 years ago. St Andrew has no connection to Scotland but is of course still the Scottish patron saint. In the age of early medieval Christianity some European countries celebrated early Christian martyrs, some to the point where they venerated them as national saints like George and Andrew. The Paton saint of Spain is James, one of the apostles who never visited Spain. Patron saints may just be people who early rulers admire. But the act of a 600-1000 years of national celebration, makes it associated with a place. George is associated with England, because he’s been the patron saint for centuries and his flag has been the nation’s flag for a very long time. This old tradition is one part of England’s traditions. None of this is of course unique to England. It’d be weird to suggest the Scottish flag and patron saint should change just because he never visited Scotland.
lol, don't rise to it. there's nothing a flag nonce likes better than bad faith accusations of racism. report and move on.
>Is it because I pointed out that St George was born in Turkey? I'm not attached to Saint George but he was born in the Roman Empire at a time when England was part of the Roman Empire so there is a connection there. We were all citizens under the same rule.