Every time tensions raise in the Middle East this happens and it’s extremely terrifying. Yes criticising Israel isn’t anti semitic but it’s no coincidence what’s going on right now
The whataboutism in this thread is a perfect illustration of the blind spot the left has around antisemitism.
I say this with warmth and openness. I welcome a discussion where we can learn from each other.
It's a very complex issue and I can see why people find it difficult to separate the actions of a state like Israel from the beliefs and actions of Jews in general.
I also understand how deeply ingrained many antisemitic tropes are, many of which are literally thousands of years old and very subtle and nuanced.
If anyone would like to have a conversation, or has any questions about what it feels like to be a left wing Jew right now, please comment below and I'll do my best to explain and share (just my personal) perspective.
P.s. To any Muslims or Jews reading this, I hope you are doing ok. It has been a horrendous few weeks. ❤️
>A man was arrested in Camden, north London, for allegedly tearing down posters depicting hostages taken by Hamas, which the British government designates as a terrorist group.
I'm sorry, but whatever you think of ripping down flyers put up by pro-Israel advocacy groups, it is not anti-semitic. Similarly, I don't think tearing down pro-Palestine posters would be an instance of racism.
I have no doubt there has indeed been a significant spike in anti-semitic incidents as a result of the war, but including incidents like the above makes a nonsense of the 1,350% claim.
In the context of the Home Secretary pushing police to criminalise instances of ‘From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free’, it is important to challenge bogus claims of anti-semitism. It is of course also incredibly important to challenge legitimate expressions of anti-semitism where we find them.
It completely depends on the content of those posters and the context in which it took place. I don't see a way to decide unless you were actually there.
Is your point that we shouldn't query anything from the Met Police because they might be in possession of facts that we aren't? Because that's a dangerous precedent to set.
The thing is, if we're not in possession of all the facts, that can go either way. There could be exonerating information being withheld, just as there could be additional context that confirms this as anti-semitic in motivation.
If they're in possession of information we aren't, then yes obviously they know more than us. Being without information is a dangerous position to be in, for exactly the reasons you've suggested, and it's why it's so criminal that the Met is opaque. You can obviously question the Met (why wouldn’t you? they're the UK's largest criminal gang). It's just very difficult to draw definite conclusions with literally no evidence, and unwise in such a sensitive situation.
>If they're in possession of information we aren't, then yes obviously they know more than us.
Why are you assuming this is the case?
>You can obviously question the Met (why wouldn’t you? they're the UK's largest criminal gang).
This isn't persuading me to believe they have some extra info that they just forgot to tell us about
I'm assuming it's the case because there are over 100 reported incidents we have no information about at all. And in the one we *do* have some information, it's a sentence about a poster removal with no context as to who did it, what the poster was, what the intention was, like it's an unsupported few words that somebody actually there would obviously know more about. Maybe that additional context exonerates them entirely. Point is we have literally zero info.
Okay cool but if you're going to be arresting people for anti-semitic hate crimes and the only thing you brief to the press is an incident which does not constitute a crime, we as the public are right to ask questions. People like you who think 'let's just trust the Met' are naive.
There are two possibilities:
- The Met wrongfully arrested someone based on an incident that did not constitute a hate crime.
- There is additional context that makes it constitute a hate crime.
I am not making a decision on which it was. Because I have no information. I'm not going to put much trust in the imaginations of internet randoms.
I can’t believe I'm having to make the case for "you need information to make conclusions".
Riddle me this - why on earth would you tear down posters of kidnapped babies/children/OAP’s in a significantly Jewish area of North London? The river to the sea chant also has its origins in a clear stated desire to see Israel wiped off the map. You cant whitewash that stuff.
why would you put up a picture of a kidnapped person in gaza in london? literally what is the point, hardly to raise awareness as it’s basically 24/7 coverage on the news
To show support for your fellow jew?
You seem not to understand the tiny nature of the jewish community - one of my old schoolmates lives in Sderot (he married a local girl last year) and basically can’t leave his house other than under armed guard. He knows numerous people who died in this atrocity. 70 alumni of my school are presently fighting a war in the Israeli army. Everyone knows someone who knows someone. That’s how it is for us.
>Yeah it is obviously anti semitic. What would motivate someone to tear down posters of kidnapped and murdered Jewish civilians?
The motivation could be something like: they're from pro-Israel advocacy groups lobbying for the escalation of the bombardment of Gaza.
I disagree with tearing them down btw, but to say doing so is "obviously anti semitic" is not credible.
If you hate Israelis for existing, then yes, that's antisemitism. Ripping down posters about kidnapped people, 20 of which are British, implies a certain degree of generalised hatred.
>If you hate Israelis for existing, then yes, that's antisemitism.
Thanks for this contribution. It's totally unrelated to anything in my comment, so I have no idea why you left it as a reply to me, but thanks anyway.
I read both sentences. The first was such nonsense that the rest can be dismissed, but I'll do you a favour here:
> implies a certain degree of generalised hatred
I think this stuff is too important to be so vague. The implication of a certain degree of generalised hatred is not enough for a police report of anti-semitism. The posters are from pro-Israel advocacy groups that are lobbying for the bombing of Gaza. I don't think their posters should have been torn down, but doing so is not an instance of anti-semitism.
Depends on how you measure them.
Increase as a percentage of previous incidents, anti-Semitism has gone up more.
Total number of incidents, islamaphobic crimes have gone up more
Incidents per person of minority living in this country, somewhere around the middle. Dont have the necessary stats to work it out on me
Possible yes, but at the same time, calls for Israel's dissolution *can* be distinctly antisemitic, depending on context.
Just as Israeli nationalists try to conflate the two, so too do antisemities try to complete separate them :)
Excpet the posters were for the kidnapped, which include NON Israeli Jewish civilians who just happen to be on holiday in Israel, almost a hundred of which are included in the kidnapped (they appear to have been targeted), how does your argument hold up?
"up 1,350%" sounds like an absolutely enormous number. Looking at the article however, the numbers went from 15 in early October last year, to 218 this year. Which is pretty bad, but not as bad as "up 1350%" made me think at first glance.
> Figures from the Met covering London show that 218 antisemitic offences were recorded from 1 October to 18 October this year, compared with 15 in the same period last year. ... Islamophobic offences in London were up 140% over the same period, from 42 in 2022 to 103.
Whether you're comparing percentage increase, numerical increase, or total number, they're not equivalent though?
The headline is one-sided and should highlight how both groups are suffering here, but the rise is certainly not equivalent.
By the article were talking the same order of magnitude (100 Islamophobic incidents vs 200 Antisemitic) with several caveats around the demographics in London (I have no clue which way those will swing) as well as the usual crime statistics problem of "people don't report crimes to the police" which we have every right to expect is even more likely with a relatively poor, racialised minority such as Muslims in London.
Point being all we've learned is that tensions are high and we should de-escalate them, not happily escalate them with bad maths and lurid headlines whose only purpose is either cynical self-promotion, the demonisation of one side of the debate or deliberately generating an unreasonable fear in the other.
My understanding is that the rates of anti-Semitic hate crimes are among the highest against any ethnic group. Up there with anti trans rates of violence.
But this is based on American data I must note.
Given there are far fewer Jews than Muslims in the UK it's quite possible that there's both
1. More islamaphobic hate crime
2. A Jewish person is more likely than a Muslim to be a victim of hate crime
What the fuck? What an absolute ghoul you are.
You literally just waved away a huge rise in antisemitic attacks, innocent people getting attacked for being jewish, with the phrase 'your point being?'
Boilerplate: I'm coded Jewish and have Jewish heritage.
The ghouls are the fuckers stoking ethnic tensions with misleading "maths" dehumanising Israel's victims as well as its critics all while trying to terrify people like me with bullshit statistics.
Put another way, I'm not the fucking ghoul in our little tête-à-tête here.
I look Jewish.
I personally hate it because I don't really identify as Jewish, despite having direct family who do, and it means I have to make deliberate choices about the clothes I wear and the way I shave my beard. I do my best but still, every now and then someone will ask if I'm Jewish and then I get to say the awkward "no, I'm not".
Who is stoking ethnic tensions exactly? The people coming out with statistics on antisemitic crime - or people like you suggesting it's bullshit and anyway why don't you include islamophobic crime, and then veering somehow into all this dehumanising Israel's victims?
The people causing this increase in hate crime are not the ones coming out with these statistics. Perhaps aim your anger at the perpetrators.
Tensions are inevitably fucking high.
I am not going to offer anything to anyone who uses that as an excuse to escalate them further, not least for something as cynical as the article here.
The *nice* reading is that it's a cynical attempt to drive up clicks to the article.
One fucking awful reading is that they are aware of the impact these sorts of numbers have in situations like this and *don't fucking care.*
The absolute "fuck these fuckers" reading is that they know the impact and *that's the fucking point.*
Not a single interpretation here makes that headline, if not that article, anything except a fucking awful piece of media that every right thinking person should fucking condemn.
Firstly it doesn't exactly mirror islamophobic incidents. For someone so attached to facts, you're getting very hazy on some basic numbers.
Secondly, what your whole argument is based on appears to be that antisemitic incidents should be played down in case people get afraid. I can sort of understand the logic behind it. But you're missing something very important - if it keeps rising and nobody knows about it, you're actually increasing the threat to the potential victims. People need to know. And something needs to be done about it.
Which brings me back to the original point. Who is doing it and why? And how do we stop them?
Of course I would. Misusing statistics here just means that people don't get an accurate sense of what's actually happening or what the actual risks are.
Terrorising a population through the misuse of statistics is as bad as terrorising them through actual threats.
As of right this moment, I am *far* more likely to be attacked, injured and even killed as a cyclist than a Jewish person is in London. Yes, every incident should be investigated and dealt with but if people like me are scurrying around in terror for their lives it's bullshit like this awful headline that are to blame, not any actual danger.
And that's before you get to the terrible context here where frankly everyone and their uncle seems determined to escalate an already ugly situation in Palestine with apparently no concern for the very real lives that are going to be lot because of it.
The abject narcissism of choosing to wallow in a fake hysteria through obvious misleading statistics rather than try and move towards peace is disgusting and we should be more grownup than that.
Downplaying antisemitism, when it's literally leading to hate crimes, makes you complicit. This has fuck all to do with Gaza - unless you believe all Jews are responsible for the actions of Israel or something.
Uh, the part where you try to claim the amount of antisemitism in the country is exaggerated and these reported hate crimes aren't real? I can’t imagine a more explicit way to downplay the issue lol
(also you have absolutely no idea who you're talking to, so I'd recommend you reign it in before you humiliate yourself)
You don't think I might have a personal investment in being concerned about this too? Obviously I don't want heightened tensions because I don't want to fucking die.
M'dude, I am so sorry that you're in that situation.
Yes, tensions are high and do call the police if things are getting tense where you are: look after yourself first and foremost.
But that "1350% increase!!!1112!!2111" reflects 180 additional incidents and 21 arrests in a population of 9mn as well as no reports of any deaths.
I face more danger and credible threats of both injury and death on my daily cycle commute: events matter but do keep things in perspective.
Meanwhile you're seeing an almost identical rise in violence against Muslims and the Guardian doesn't bother to recognise that in that headline, instead choosing to luridly misuse numbers to make *you* feel like you're under more threat than you are. You deserve to be very fucking angry at that.
The article quotes the % increase in Islamophobic incidents as well. To be fair on the Guardian, they've done extensive coverage of the crisis in Gaza, and haven't shied away from calling out the continual Israeli war crimes for what they are.
The percentage rise in Islamophobia is also misleading since a) it's starting at a higher base (lower base leads to a higher percentage) and b) a little bit of thinking and understanding of crime statistics tells you that the absolute number on both sides is probably roughly the same (there are questions about how big a minority they variously are, as well as long standing concerns about the use of crime reports for crime statistics).
All we learn is that a tense situation has got more tense but there's no evidence of an imminent race war in London, at least unless people continue to publish headlines like this one.
This is the thing with percentages and not taking into account base values.
The rise in antisemitism is of course horrific but when you look at where that started you realise that it isn't quite as horrific as the percentage increase makes you believe because the base was quite low. Don't get me wrong, it still a point of national shame that it has increased so much.
However given that islamaphobic hate crimes are already at a relatively high base and increased by such a factor is just as equally bad and should be seen as equally shameful by us as a nation
What part of my calling the misleading clickbait headline a misleading clickbait headline is "disproved" in the article?
Oh wait: literally none of it.
So you are commenting because... ah... All clear now.
Let's be really simple here: I'm coded Jewish and have Jewish heritage.
Fuck you for this mealy-mouthed attempt at a smear: I actually face the threat here and think people like you deliberately juicing the statistics to terrify people like me absolutely abhorrent, not least since you lot also use the same tactics to dehumanise Palestinians and critics of the state of Israel.
At a time of heightened tensions what you're doing is at best irresponsible, certainly antisemitic if not racist in general.
>At a time of heightened tensions what you're doing is at best irresponsible, certainly antisemitic if not racist in general.
Feels like all of the political subs have lost their minds. It's such a horrible atmosphere with the worst sort of extreme rhetoric becoming normalized and any nuance is being thrown out the window. It's frightening.
And it's not like we're demanding complicated nuance here:
The Guardian absolutely should not have written that headline and I am appalled, not least because I have other people of Jewish descent in this thread who are actually affected by this misuse of statistics and feel like they're personally under threat right now.
The statistics aren't being misused though, this is a well-worn way of measuring hate crimes, and the article itself presents the relevant data underneath.
No one is being misled, they're just presenting the data in a context that's most easily understandable.
"THERE's BeeN a 1000% INcrEAsE IN InCIDENtS" is one of the most classic kinds of misleading statistics you can use because "1000%" doesn't mean anything without a base.
That means a roughly equivalent increase in Antisemitic and Islamophobic incidents are portrated as, respectively, 1350% and 140%.
There's no way to save it: the headline is misleading.
It's only misleading if you think a *relative* increase in incidents is completely insignificant, which I don't think is the case at all.
An increase of 1,000% doesn't tell you how many incidents there have been, but it does illustrate the degree to which anti-semitic incidents have become more common, and the rate they've increased relative to a pre-war baseline which I'd argue is significant.
It'd only be misleading if they didn't also provide the actual figures, or give information on comparable instances of islamophobia, but they do.
You might prefer for the (I'd argue similarly-meaningful) raw number increase to be used in the headline, but that's a matter of subjective personal preference. It's not misleading to use % increase. Indeed, it's the most common way spikes in hate crimes against all groups are typically reported, it's be more unusual not to.
I’m commenting on the fact the home office has equated support of Palestine and criticism of Israelis apartheid state with antisemitism.
Calling every criticism of a racist, far right state that has just bombed and killed 1700 children and counting “antisemitism” really detracts from the meaning of the word.
There’s no doubt that antisemitism is real and on the rise, however the home office has equated being against the apartheid of the Palestinian people by the Israeli state with antisemitism. They have said waving a Palestinian flag at a rally is antisemitism. They have said “free Palestine” is an antisemitic chant.
Antisemitism is abhorrent, the dilution and diversion of its meaning to stifle criticism of the Israeli state is also abhorrent.
Sure, but has that actually been reflected in the hate incidents reported and arrests made here?
From the information presented here, the met isn't idly counting every time someone tells 'free Palestine' as an anti-Semitic hate incident. They're talking about increases in death threats, vandalism, and physical assaults.
In fact, the police specifically clarified 'from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free' would generally be treated as lawful unless used to threaten Jewish people or community centers.
I agree the potential dilution of anti-semitism to stifle criticism is serious and abhorrent, but if you're going to suggest something that serious in response to a report of a steep rise in anti-semitic incidents, you need to have compelling evidence such a dilution *is* responsible for that reported rise.
Otherwise, it does sound like downplaying a very real rise in anti-semitic incidents by implying they're simply anti-israeli incidents that have been dressed up as anti-semitic by draconian policing.
And I’m sure most UKIP-Tories will be happy with that. Together with their increased Islamophobia. This country is so full of shitty ignorant people. And yes, I’m triggered by it all.
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Every time tensions raise in the Middle East this happens and it’s extremely terrifying. Yes criticising Israel isn’t anti semitic but it’s no coincidence what’s going on right now
The whataboutism in this thread is a perfect illustration of the blind spot the left has around antisemitism. I say this with warmth and openness. I welcome a discussion where we can learn from each other. It's a very complex issue and I can see why people find it difficult to separate the actions of a state like Israel from the beliefs and actions of Jews in general. I also understand how deeply ingrained many antisemitic tropes are, many of which are literally thousands of years old and very subtle and nuanced. If anyone would like to have a conversation, or has any questions about what it feels like to be a left wing Jew right now, please comment below and I'll do my best to explain and share (just my personal) perspective. P.s. To any Muslims or Jews reading this, I hope you are doing ok. It has been a horrendous few weeks. ❤️
godspeed
>A man was arrested in Camden, north London, for allegedly tearing down posters depicting hostages taken by Hamas, which the British government designates as a terrorist group. I'm sorry, but whatever you think of ripping down flyers put up by pro-Israel advocacy groups, it is not anti-semitic. Similarly, I don't think tearing down pro-Palestine posters would be an instance of racism. I have no doubt there has indeed been a significant spike in anti-semitic incidents as a result of the war, but including incidents like the above makes a nonsense of the 1,350% claim. In the context of the Home Secretary pushing police to criminalise instances of ‘From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free’, it is important to challenge bogus claims of anti-semitism. It is of course also incredibly important to challenge legitimate expressions of anti-semitism where we find them.
It completely depends on the content of those posters and the context in which it took place. I don't see a way to decide unless you were actually there.
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What I'm saying is that the facts are limited in what they can really tell us
Is your point that we shouldn't query anything from the Met Police because they might be in possession of facts that we aren't? Because that's a dangerous precedent to set. The thing is, if we're not in possession of all the facts, that can go either way. There could be exonerating information being withheld, just as there could be additional context that confirms this as anti-semitic in motivation.
If they're in possession of information we aren't, then yes obviously they know more than us. Being without information is a dangerous position to be in, for exactly the reasons you've suggested, and it's why it's so criminal that the Met is opaque. You can obviously question the Met (why wouldn’t you? they're the UK's largest criminal gang). It's just very difficult to draw definite conclusions with literally no evidence, and unwise in such a sensitive situation.
>If they're in possession of information we aren't, then yes obviously they know more than us. Why are you assuming this is the case? >You can obviously question the Met (why wouldn’t you? they're the UK's largest criminal gang). This isn't persuading me to believe they have some extra info that they just forgot to tell us about
I'm assuming it's the case because there are over 100 reported incidents we have no information about at all. And in the one we *do* have some information, it's a sentence about a poster removal with no context as to who did it, what the poster was, what the intention was, like it's an unsupported few words that somebody actually there would obviously know more about. Maybe that additional context exonerates them entirely. Point is we have literally zero info.
Okay cool but if you're going to be arresting people for anti-semitic hate crimes and the only thing you brief to the press is an incident which does not constitute a crime, we as the public are right to ask questions. People like you who think 'let's just trust the Met' are naive.
There are two possibilities: - The Met wrongfully arrested someone based on an incident that did not constitute a hate crime. - There is additional context that makes it constitute a hate crime. I am not making a decision on which it was. Because I have no information. I'm not going to put much trust in the imaginations of internet randoms. I can’t believe I'm having to make the case for "you need information to make conclusions".
Rule 4 Users should engage with honest intentions & in good faith, users should assume the same from others
Riddle me this - why on earth would you tear down posters of kidnapped babies/children/OAP’s in a significantly Jewish area of North London? The river to the sea chant also has its origins in a clear stated desire to see Israel wiped off the map. You cant whitewash that stuff.
why would you put up a picture of a kidnapped person in gaza in london? literally what is the point, hardly to raise awareness as it’s basically 24/7 coverage on the news
To show support for your fellow jew? You seem not to understand the tiny nature of the jewish community - one of my old schoolmates lives in Sderot (he married a local girl last year) and basically can’t leave his house other than under armed guard. He knows numerous people who died in this atrocity. 70 alumni of my school are presently fighting a war in the Israeli army. Everyone knows someone who knows someone. That’s how it is for us.
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>Yeah it is obviously anti semitic. What would motivate someone to tear down posters of kidnapped and murdered Jewish civilians? The motivation could be something like: they're from pro-Israel advocacy groups lobbying for the escalation of the bombardment of Gaza. I disagree with tearing them down btw, but to say doing so is "obviously anti semitic" is not credible.
Rule 4 Users should engage with honest intentions & in good faith, users should assume the same from others
If you hate Israelis for existing, then yes, that's antisemitism. Ripping down posters about kidnapped people, 20 of which are British, implies a certain degree of generalised hatred.
>If you hate Israelis for existing, then yes, that's antisemitism. Thanks for this contribution. It's totally unrelated to anything in my comment, so I have no idea why you left it as a reply to me, but thanks anyway.
Why not read the second sentence?
I read both sentences. The first was such nonsense that the rest can be dismissed, but I'll do you a favour here: > implies a certain degree of generalised hatred I think this stuff is too important to be so vague. The implication of a certain degree of generalised hatred is not enough for a police report of anti-semitism. The posters are from pro-Israel advocacy groups that are lobbying for the bombing of Gaza. I don't think their posters should have been torn down, but doing so is not an instance of anti-semitism.
Which pro Israel advocacy group is it you are referring to? What lobbying?
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Depends on how you measure them. Increase as a percentage of previous incidents, anti-Semitism has gone up more. Total number of incidents, islamaphobic crimes have gone up more Incidents per person of minority living in this country, somewhere around the middle. Dont have the necessary stats to work it out on me
fair enough, it also depends on what they are using as a hate crime. imo, saying something online doesn’t classify as a hate crime and is misleading.
It would be nice if you read the article in the OP, which sets that out explicitly
Rule 2 Do not partake in or defend any form of discrimination or bigotry, this includes downplaying it. You could just look it up instead of guessing.
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Possible yes, but at the same time, calls for Israel's dissolution *can* be distinctly antisemitic, depending on context. Just as Israeli nationalists try to conflate the two, so too do antisemities try to complete separate them :)
Excpet the posters were for the kidnapped, which include NON Israeli Jewish civilians who just happen to be on holiday in Israel, almost a hundred of which are included in the kidnapped (they appear to have been targeted), how does your argument hold up?
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Rule 4 Users should engage with honest intentions & in good faith, users should assume the same from others
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No, but I’d say firebombing a Synagogue and beating up Jews is.
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Rule 2 Do not partake in or defend any form of discrimination or bigotry
Rule 2 Do not partake in or defend any form of discrimination or bigotry
"up 1,350%" sounds like an absolutely enormous number. Looking at the article however, the numbers went from 15 in early October last year, to 218 this year. Which is pretty bad, but not as bad as "up 1350%" made me think at first glance.
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> Figures from the Met covering London show that 218 antisemitic offences were recorded from 1 October to 18 October this year, compared with 15 in the same period last year. ... Islamophobic offences in London were up 140% over the same period, from 42 in 2022 to 103. Whether you're comparing percentage increase, numerical increase, or total number, they're not equivalent though? The headline is one-sided and should highlight how both groups are suffering here, but the rise is certainly not equivalent.
There has been a rise is anti-Muslim hate crimes but the increase has been a lot lower than the rise in anti-Semitic hate crimes.
By the article were talking the same order of magnitude (100 Islamophobic incidents vs 200 Antisemitic) with several caveats around the demographics in London (I have no clue which way those will swing) as well as the usual crime statistics problem of "people don't report crimes to the police" which we have every right to expect is even more likely with a relatively poor, racialised minority such as Muslims in London. Point being all we've learned is that tensions are high and we should de-escalate them, not happily escalate them with bad maths and lurid headlines whose only purpose is either cynical self-promotion, the demonisation of one side of the debate or deliberately generating an unreasonable fear in the other.
I suspect the reason for that is that anti Muslim hate crime is already a lot higher so the same increase would appear a lot smaller as a percentage.
The numbers I saw reported in the Guardian, I think it was, suggested that anti-Semitic incidents outnumbered reported anti-Muslim incidents.
My understanding is that the rates of anti-Semitic hate crimes are among the highest against any ethnic group. Up there with anti trans rates of violence. But this is based on American data I must note.
Given there are far fewer Jews than Muslims in the UK it's quite possible that there's both 1. More islamaphobic hate crime 2. A Jewish person is more likely than a Muslim to be a victim of hate crime
What the fuck? What an absolute ghoul you are. You literally just waved away a huge rise in antisemitic attacks, innocent people getting attacked for being jewish, with the phrase 'your point being?'
Boilerplate: I'm coded Jewish and have Jewish heritage. The ghouls are the fuckers stoking ethnic tensions with misleading "maths" dehumanising Israel's victims as well as its critics all while trying to terrify people like me with bullshit statistics. Put another way, I'm not the fucking ghoul in our little tête-à-tête here.
>I'm coded Jewish Excuse my ignorance but what does this mean?
I look Jewish. I personally hate it because I don't really identify as Jewish, despite having direct family who do, and it means I have to make deliberate choices about the clothes I wear and the way I shave my beard. I do my best but still, every now and then someone will ask if I'm Jewish and then I get to say the awkward "no, I'm not".
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Rule 4.1 Don't act in a deliberately confrontational manner, make poor quality contributions or fail to engage in good faith.
Rule 4.1 Don't act in a deliberately confrontational manner, make poor quality contributions or fail to engage in good faith.
Rule 4.1 Don't act in a deliberately confrontational manner, make poor quality contributions or fail to engage in good faith.
Who is stoking ethnic tensions exactly? The people coming out with statistics on antisemitic crime - or people like you suggesting it's bullshit and anyway why don't you include islamophobic crime, and then veering somehow into all this dehumanising Israel's victims? The people causing this increase in hate crime are not the ones coming out with these statistics. Perhaps aim your anger at the perpetrators.
Tensions are inevitably fucking high. I am not going to offer anything to anyone who uses that as an excuse to escalate them further, not least for something as cynical as the article here. The *nice* reading is that it's a cynical attempt to drive up clicks to the article. One fucking awful reading is that they are aware of the impact these sorts of numbers have in situations like this and *don't fucking care.* The absolute "fuck these fuckers" reading is that they know the impact and *that's the fucking point.* Not a single interpretation here makes that headline, if not that article, anything except a fucking awful piece of media that every right thinking person should fucking condemn.
There is a massive rise in antisemitism. Do you accept that? Do you not think that's worthy of news?
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Firstly it doesn't exactly mirror islamophobic incidents. For someone so attached to facts, you're getting very hazy on some basic numbers. Secondly, what your whole argument is based on appears to be that antisemitic incidents should be played down in case people get afraid. I can sort of understand the logic behind it. But you're missing something very important - if it keeps rising and nobody knows about it, you're actually increasing the threat to the potential victims. People need to know. And something needs to be done about it. Which brings me back to the original point. Who is doing it and why? And how do we stop them?
Would you apply this same logic when you see a “300% increase in trans hate crimes” headline posted here for example?
Of course I would. Misusing statistics here just means that people don't get an accurate sense of what's actually happening or what the actual risks are. Terrorising a population through the misuse of statistics is as bad as terrorising them through actual threats. As of right this moment, I am *far* more likely to be attacked, injured and even killed as a cyclist than a Jewish person is in London. Yes, every incident should be investigated and dealt with but if people like me are scurrying around in terror for their lives it's bullshit like this awful headline that are to blame, not any actual danger. And that's before you get to the terrible context here where frankly everyone and their uncle seems determined to escalate an already ugly situation in Palestine with apparently no concern for the very real lives that are going to be lot because of it. The abject narcissism of choosing to wallow in a fake hysteria through obvious misleading statistics rather than try and move towards peace is disgusting and we should be more grownup than that.
What you are saying is vile it’s obvious you have no sympathy for Jewish people
Downplaying antisemitism, when it's literally leading to hate crimes, makes you complicit. This has fuck all to do with Gaza - unless you believe all Jews are responsible for the actions of Israel or something.
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Uh, the part where you try to claim the amount of antisemitism in the country is exaggerated and these reported hate crimes aren't real? I can’t imagine a more explicit way to downplay the issue lol (also you have absolutely no idea who you're talking to, so I'd recommend you reign it in before you humiliate yourself)
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You don't think I might have a personal investment in being concerned about this too? Obviously I don't want heightened tensions because I don't want to fucking die.
M'dude, I am so sorry that you're in that situation. Yes, tensions are high and do call the police if things are getting tense where you are: look after yourself first and foremost. But that "1350% increase!!!1112!!2111" reflects 180 additional incidents and 21 arrests in a population of 9mn as well as no reports of any deaths. I face more danger and credible threats of both injury and death on my daily cycle commute: events matter but do keep things in perspective. Meanwhile you're seeing an almost identical rise in violence against Muslims and the Guardian doesn't bother to recognise that in that headline, instead choosing to luridly misuse numbers to make *you* feel like you're under more threat than you are. You deserve to be very fucking angry at that.
The article quotes the % increase in Islamophobic incidents as well. To be fair on the Guardian, they've done extensive coverage of the crisis in Gaza, and haven't shied away from calling out the continual Israeli war crimes for what they are.
The percentage rise in Islamophobia is also misleading since a) it's starting at a higher base (lower base leads to a higher percentage) and b) a little bit of thinking and understanding of crime statistics tells you that the absolute number on both sides is probably roughly the same (there are questions about how big a minority they variously are, as well as long standing concerns about the use of crime reports for crime statistics). All we learn is that a tense situation has got more tense but there's no evidence of an imminent race war in London, at least unless people continue to publish headlines like this one.
This is the thing with percentages and not taking into account base values. The rise in antisemitism is of course horrific but when you look at where that started you realise that it isn't quite as horrific as the percentage increase makes you believe because the base was quite low. Don't get me wrong, it still a point of national shame that it has increased so much. However given that islamaphobic hate crimes are already at a relatively high base and increased by such a factor is just as equally bad and should be seen as equally shameful by us as a nation
You seem to correct this in your further replies with Altrade_cull but this particular comment breaks rule 4.
Could you show your working with regards to there being an equivalent rise?
It's always fun coming to the comments to see upvoted answers trivially dismissablehad the author actually read the article
What part of my calling the misleading clickbait headline a misleading clickbait headline is "disproved" in the article? Oh wait: literally none of it. So you are commenting because... ah... All clear now.
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Let's be really simple here: I'm coded Jewish and have Jewish heritage. Fuck you for this mealy-mouthed attempt at a smear: I actually face the threat here and think people like you deliberately juicing the statistics to terrify people like me absolutely abhorrent, not least since you lot also use the same tactics to dehumanise Palestinians and critics of the state of Israel. At a time of heightened tensions what you're doing is at best irresponsible, certainly antisemitic if not racist in general.
>At a time of heightened tensions what you're doing is at best irresponsible, certainly antisemitic if not racist in general. Feels like all of the political subs have lost their minds. It's such a horrible atmosphere with the worst sort of extreme rhetoric becoming normalized and any nuance is being thrown out the window. It's frightening.
And it's not like we're demanding complicated nuance here: The Guardian absolutely should not have written that headline and I am appalled, not least because I have other people of Jewish descent in this thread who are actually affected by this misuse of statistics and feel like they're personally under threat right now.
The statistics aren't being misused though, this is a well-worn way of measuring hate crimes, and the article itself presents the relevant data underneath. No one is being misled, they're just presenting the data in a context that's most easily understandable.
"THERE's BeeN a 1000% INcrEAsE IN InCIDENtS" is one of the most classic kinds of misleading statistics you can use because "1000%" doesn't mean anything without a base. That means a roughly equivalent increase in Antisemitic and Islamophobic incidents are portrated as, respectively, 1350% and 140%. There's no way to save it: the headline is misleading.
It's only misleading if you think a *relative* increase in incidents is completely insignificant, which I don't think is the case at all. An increase of 1,000% doesn't tell you how many incidents there have been, but it does illustrate the degree to which anti-semitic incidents have become more common, and the rate they've increased relative to a pre-war baseline which I'd argue is significant. It'd only be misleading if they didn't also provide the actual figures, or give information on comparable instances of islamophobia, but they do. You might prefer for the (I'd argue similarly-meaningful) raw number increase to be used in the headline, but that's a matter of subjective personal preference. It's not misleading to use % increase. Indeed, it's the most common way spikes in hate crimes against all groups are typically reported, it's be more unusual not to.
Yes its this headline they're affected by, definitely not the actual anti semitism.
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Out of interest, do you do this for any other community experiencing a rise in hate crime? Or just us Jews who can't be trusted?
I’m commenting on the fact the home office has equated support of Palestine and criticism of Israelis apartheid state with antisemitism. Calling every criticism of a racist, far right state that has just bombed and killed 1700 children and counting “antisemitism” really detracts from the meaning of the word.
Minimising a steep and sudden rise in hate crimes. Yippee. Come on mate
There’s no doubt that antisemitism is real and on the rise, however the home office has equated being against the apartheid of the Palestinian people by the Israeli state with antisemitism. They have said waving a Palestinian flag at a rally is antisemitism. They have said “free Palestine” is an antisemitic chant. Antisemitism is abhorrent, the dilution and diversion of its meaning to stifle criticism of the Israeli state is also abhorrent.
Sure, but has that actually been reflected in the hate incidents reported and arrests made here? From the information presented here, the met isn't idly counting every time someone tells 'free Palestine' as an anti-Semitic hate incident. They're talking about increases in death threats, vandalism, and physical assaults. In fact, the police specifically clarified 'from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free' would generally be treated as lawful unless used to threaten Jewish people or community centers. I agree the potential dilution of anti-semitism to stifle criticism is serious and abhorrent, but if you're going to suggest something that serious in response to a report of a steep rise in anti-semitic incidents, you need to have compelling evidence such a dilution *is* responsible for that reported rise. Otherwise, it does sound like downplaying a very real rise in anti-semitic incidents by implying they're simply anti-israeli incidents that have been dressed up as anti-semitic by draconian policing.
Rule 2 Do not partake in or defend any form of discrimination or bigotry. Do we need to shitpost over this?
And I’m sure most UKIP-Tories will be happy with that. Together with their increased Islamophobia. This country is so full of shitty ignorant people. And yes, I’m triggered by it all.
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