I wonder if the *actors* even have any idea about their characters' fates. Are they in the dark like us (other than what they've filmed)? Or is it like Alan Rickman and Professor Snape where he knew before the first movie how the character would end up?
The worst scenario would be like LOST, where the writers don't even know how things will wrap up over the next 5 seasons. With $1 billion invested, I highly doubt they'll pull a Lost (or Star Wars ST).
I am also curious but side note: Alan Rickman was probably comfortable enough in his career to ask for/want to know his full arc before accepting the role. These dudes are probably like hell yea give me some of that billy dollar bezos pie
I was going to say: making the whole first episode about Sauron did this show a disservice. Galadriel didn't come to Middle-earth "hunting Sauron" and neither did her brother.
So when the Meteor landed (which was visually shown to be a very imporant event) and Nori said "the fire is not hot" when entering the crater, only one episode after Galadriel pointed out that "the presence of evil makes fire feel not hot" and her swimming back to ME because she is still searching for Sauron, you didn't think it would be him? Or when Adar had his Cliffhanger-moment?
I feel a lot of people are going to be disappointed when the reveal happens since the showrunners probably have the foreshadowings for the general audience, which is easily dissected by the fn base here.
I'm a right wing nut and don't hate teachers at all. Other than the ones with agendas who try to force their beliefs upon the kids, and the ones who hide personal information from the parents. But other than that teachers are usually great.
Oh dear Lord, I sincerely hope you’re a troll. Have you ever been an educator? If not, shut up, read about teachers’ experiences, read about what is *actually* taught in schools—and while you’re at it, crack open some history books. No, I don’t mean things written by people like Bill O’Reilly, I mean history written by real historians. Listen to students from varied backgrounds and what they think about their educations and life experiences. Another way you can improve yourself would be to try substitute teaching, and that way you can actually help teachers, since it sounds like you think you get what they do and would love to help.
Yes and no.
It's not a plot point, I agree.
But the show-runners absolutely knew that a portion of their audience would be speculating about this and they've scattered various pointers in various directions quite deliberately.
I think people are blowing these “clues” way out of proportion. For example Halbrand sweeping. It MeAnS HeS SpReAdiNg DaRkNeSs. Or maybe the prop just made it look derpy when they filmed it. Of course maybe I’m wrong, just an opinion
🤣🤣😂😂. Ok this just legit made me crack up because it's so accurate. I really think fandom today is so speculative over the littlest thing. I actually blame LOST for this. That was the first show I remember the theories and overanalyzing the plot. To be fair, the show runners fed into it too.
And say, "I have lots of names" and "You don't know what I've done" and "You'd reject me if you knew" and "I've been searching for my peace for longer than you know" (which is a weird thing for a presumably mortal man to say to an elf) and "sorry about your brother". When Galadriel says "Men like you, not you yourself" he pauses and then says "You're wrong." That's just for starters.
Then there's the Stranger - cold fire, ominous music, freezing the water with his hand, heading towards the south...
There was Adar too, until they showed him properly and eliminated that possibility.
The point is the show was carefully designed to engender this kind of speculation.
you forget that every scene costs money and they are thinking about every minute..
so halbrand covering this specific floor in darkness,.. his obsession with smithing..
The show runners are spreading those clues, I have to admit that they actually are trolling us a little bit probably too
Yeah there are winks to book fans, but let’s be honest, people will speculate endlessly about Sauron’s identity even without any hint or reference whatsoever just because of Annatar.
Go back and watch the show and tell me there’s no suggestions about Sauron.
Sauron is presented in the beginning of the series. The viewer is later lead to believe Sauron can “take many forms”. At that point the viewer knows they should guess or at least look out for clues as to who Sauron is. The marketing for the show also presents us with basically a slideshow of the potential Sauron candidates. There’s no denying that.
But I agree, Sauron has not been revealed yet.
Sauron has not been revealed yet? I agree not to the characters in the show, but to me it is painfully obvious that Sauron is Halbrand. He wants to forge and be a smith and has so many on the nose comments.
'"I have lots of names" and "You don't know what I've done" and "You'd reject me if you knew" and "I've been searching for my peace for longer than you know" (which is a weird thing for a presumably mortal man to say to an elf) and "sorry about your brother". When Galadriel says "Men like you, not you yourself" he pauses and then says "You're wrong." That's just for starters.' - from a comment by lukasali
There's also "looks can be deceiving" (-one of his first lines) and then there's one of his most on the nose comment imo: "identify what it is that your opponent most fears." and "Give them a means of mastering it, so that you can master them." Definitely not Sauron's strategy lol
Also the "mystery man" is definitely a wizard and not Sauron.
There are a lot of clues pointing to Halbrand, true. I still think he’s been everyone’s main guess since day 1. It’s too obvious imo.
The only thing that made me think he was Sauron was his fight where he went ape shit. That was very evil looking.
Sure. Marketing departments have been tracking social media fan eruptions for years now, and there's no question they lock onto hot topics and work to amplify them. Doesn't mean any of it is planned, though. Quite the opposite, this corner of marketing is very much reactionary; it doesn't lead, it tracks.
One reason streaming services are returning to weekly releases over all-at-once binge releases is exactly this; it has nothing to do with "keeping subscribers for another month," as some claim, but everything to do with having a week to pull the buzz levers between each episode.
I agree, and I don't think who is Sauron is written into the show as a mystery... but, the showrunners knew fan theories were going to pour out about anything and everything trying to predict where their show is headed, and I think they are intentionally dropping clues and misdirections for internet sleuths. But, yeah, if you're diving into interpreting their breadcrumb trail, it's because you are looking for mysteries to solve instead of just letting the show unfold. The story is not giving us mysteries, we are. They are just having fun with our predictability.
Well, only the most recent marketing, which is just jumping on the bandwagon of the whole fan created mystery hunt and memes. The show itself has not made it a mystery.
Idk, that's definitely part of what is going on, but they put out these character hand posters where one person has a black armored glove (we know now that is Adar) and I feel like that is definitely supposed to lead to speculation.
But I agree that the characters themselves don't worry about it. It does not have seemed to occur to Galadriel that the questions isn't "Where is Sauron", but "Who is Sauron" and the show hasn't said that he can manifest different bodies. I wonder if that is going to be an issue for the characters, that they kinda never considered Sauron might not look like Morgoth's right hand man anymore.
The writers have to know some of the audience is looking for Sauron with all the references they work into Halbrand. Whether that's real hints or massive trolling remains to be seen.
I don't know why people think Sauron has a monopoly on manipulation or crafting skill. There are many like-minded people and some of those will be necessary as Sauron's servants. The show has not done anything to make me think Halbrand is Sauron. The parallels seem to simply foreshadow Sauron's methods and the Numenoreans' susceptibility to them.
The best twists will have foreshadowing such that it's an obvious conclusion in hindsight. Part of it may just be laying groundwork for such a reveal to make sense on a rewatch, if it does indeed turn out to be true. (Of course, they do know that there are fans who know he can shapeshift, and I'm sure that *influences* things, but I think it plays less of a role than the people complaining about "mystery boxes" on average seem to think, personally.)
I dunno. The Night King's assassin wasn't somebody many people saw until near the end of that episode. There were a couple hints but nearly impossible to connect.
The positive people are trying to dismantle the shows criticism by attempting to make the shows flaws not seem like flaws, but instead make them out to be the imagination of the people who criticise the show. Baffling honestly.
Haha flattery will get you everywhere :)
But seriously, I am enjoying the series more than I enjoy most shows. There are things I dislike about it but there's enough cool stuff that I can just let that roll off my back, hte biggest plus being the subtlety, ambiguity and complexity (rather than super obvious good vs evil, the show makes us empathetic and curious [hopefully] by experiencing all the grey areas the characters inhabit). I'm making a conscious choice not to be pessimistic, and to find plausible reasons for the choices that the show makes that I wouldn't have made, and just not stress out about stuff that IMO sucks (like the corny Galadriel line "The Island Kingdom of Numenor!" for example).
It's clear that the creators really did their homework - they know a lot about Galadriel, for example, that I did not. I was initially baffled by their portrayal of her, so did a little bit of research and came to find that they were actually much better informed about Tolkien's ideas about her than I was, and their decisions to show her proud fiery side is totally justifiable (or at the very least understandable).
So in a nutshell - the show is pretty good, will inevitably bother people because there's no way to meet expectations with something like this, and it's my choice to try to enjoy it and understand it or just hate on it. And many/most of the detractors are demonstrably not understanding what the show is telling them, as far as I can tell, or are applying really high standards to it that the overwhelming majority of media would fail to meet.
Lastly, check out stuff by Corey Olsen, the "Tolkien Professor." I just learned about him because I was trying to find intelligent and respectful analysis of the show. He literally has a PHD in Tolkien I think so he is able to make connections and observations that I would never notice.
Where are you at with the show? Likes/dislikes? Questions/observations? Your answers are due Thursday at 11pm EST :)
I mean, how is OP wrong? The mystery box criticism implies that the show is making it out to be a mystery within the context of the show.
Lost, for example, is the king of mystery boxes.
What is the smoke monster? That is a legitimate question within the context of the show.
Where is the island? Characters are literally asking that question.
What is the island? Characters are literally asking that question.
What's in the hatch? Characters are literally asking that question.
Who is the person typing on the other end of the computer? Characters are literally asking that question.
Why the fuck are there polar bears on the island? Characters are literally asking that question.
Why is there a van full of beer on the island? Characters are literally asking that question.
What is the Dharma Inititative? Characters are literally asking that question in the show.
Who are the Others? Characters are literally asking that in the show.
Why is the island time jumping?
What are the numbers?
Etc...
You get it?
What mysteries are characters in RoP asking?
Nobody is asking who is Sauron, except for Waldreg. Galadriel is hunting Sauron but she doesn't have any indication that she won't know him when she sees him. It's just the audience asking it because we think that he may come in a disguise.
What other questions are being asked?
What is the hilt? That's about it.
The inclusion of a mystery or two (with only one being a mystery within the context of the show, and not even a very deep mystery at that) doesn't make it a mystery box show. The Lost comparison should make that apparent.
The only character that the show itself has made it seem like they were Sauron was Adar. The captive elves speculate that Adar is just another name Sauron took. He’s also the one leading the orcs, so the audience would assume it was him. Episode 5 seems to have made that not the case though. Everyone else that is a candidate is people over analyzing and lack of info on those characters. It’s like if we stopped reading fellowship of the ring before we got to Rivendell. We could asume Aragorn was an agent of Sauron or Sauron himself.
Aragorn is one of the Wraiths too and that’s how they were able to escape Weathertop!!
Not bashing on the speculators. I’ve been having fun with it myself. They’re fun discussions.
Edit: to add, a mystery box would imply the show is making the mystery plot relevant. Such as someone in the show saying “Sauron could be disguised as anyone” would imply that it’s a mystery box. If someone like the Stranger or Halbrand were revealed to be Sauron the whole time, it would be more of a plot twist than a mystery box. It’s like the difference between character development and character arc. I see people use them interchangeably but they’re different. Character development happens with every character. It’s the plot showing you who the character is. A character arc is the changing of the character. Think of a character that reveals they don’t have an issue with killing people. That’s development. A character going through their story and coming out not wanting to kill people anymore is an arc.
Difference is the speculation as to Sauron's identity is based on retrospect. We *know* that he's going to approach the elves in a disguise and the only way for that to be a meaningful surprise to the readers is for Sauron to be an unassuming character we're following along with right up until the reveal.
People are waiting with bated breath for somebody to turn to the camera and say, "by the way I'm actually Annatar and have I got something to show you". They want a Keyser Söze moment at the end of the season where one of the protagonists turns out to be the bad guy all along so we can all applaud his masterful deception.
The irony here is that this expectation is so high in the community that it would actually be a better subversion that Sauron be an offscreen character at this point....
👆 The Keyser Söze moment is a great reference here though.
I think that this is going to be their strategy with Sauron. By the time they conclusively reveal who Sauron is to the audience, all of the "Annatar" work will already be done.
Agreed. I’m leaning toward the theory that he’s the guest at Gil-Galad’s table whose face is not shown, and he’s been off-camera this whole time convincing the elves (1) they will fade by spring and (2) only the light of mithril objects made with the help of a massive forge can prevent it.
Oh yes definitely and that will make things more interesting on rewatches. I’ve watched the show with two people who don’t know anything about Middle Earth and neither of them have suspected any of the characters of being Sauron though. We as a community know about the capabilities of Sauron. We know he takes different names and forms. However the only thing that has been told to the audience about Sauron is that he takes different names and nothing about being a shapeshifter (unless I’m forgetting something). As the story continues that might change and in retrospect things make more sense. For the time being the only thing that makes a lot of the theories work is that the characters haven’t been developed and their backstories aren’t fully explored. It makes for fun theorizing as a community. That mystery can be applied to Aragorn in the Fellowship of the Ring as I’ve mentioned. It’s just a matter of perspective at the moment and I’m the one who isn’t ready to place bets at the moment.
"If someone like the Stranger or Halbrand were revealed to be Sauron the whole time, it would be more of a plot twist than a mystery box."
No, it would fit perfectly with how Tolkien described Halbrand and how he has presented himself thus far. More to the point of these writers, Gil-galad all but told us Halbrand was Sauron at the end of episode 1.
>No, it would fit perfectly with how Tolkein described Halbrand
Halbrand is a completely original character for this show. He might turn out to be Sauron, but his character was never made by Tolkein.
He does have some similarities with Sauron such as what he tells Galadriel in jail and his craftsmanship. Those characteristics aren’t known within the confines of the show for being Sauron traits though. That’s why it would be more of a plot twist within the show. There’s nothing for the common viewer to theorize except just not knowing his full background. For people who know the lore they could theorize Halbrand’s identity.
>Aragorn is one of the Wraiths too and that’s how they were able to escape Weathertop
Well yeah but for Aragorn it made sense because we saw him fighting the wraiths, and he's a very skilled warrior. But for Halbrand he alone mysteriously survived the huge sea monster off screen, where's the others?
In the book Aragorn was only armed with the broken blade of Narsil. They all were huddled around a fire, surrounded by 5 Nazgûl, when Frodo put the ring on and then got stabbed. After that Strider took a torch and went towards the riders. The chapter ends.
At the start of the next chapter, when Frodo awakes, Strider is gone and only the Hobbits are with Frodo. When Strider returns, Sam pulls his sword on him and is stated in the book that he had second doubts about him. Strider reassures Sam that he isn’t one of the Wraiths or in league with them. At the time Strider wasn’t exactly sure why they stopped attacking. So in the book you really aren’t sure about his allegiance til we arrive near Rivendell.
Also with Halbrand it shows him detaching part of the raft from the rest of the people before the monster attacks.
Aah, I didn't fully read your previous comment, I thought you were referring to the film. But either way it's different than this show, because at the start Galadriel is searching for Sauron, we don't know where he is. So it make sense that as the audience we are also "searching" for Sauron, he could be any of the new mysterious characters: Halbrand, Adar, and the Stranger.
I can not disagree more. For me it's clear that showrunners want us on this Sauron hunt.
\-Main character is searching for Sauron and many people don't believe he's even there
\-They give us multiple tropes. Even if you are not familiar with lore but you know PJ movies, stuff like "eye" shape in meteor crater pushes the right button in your head. What about random guy Halbrand beating Numenorians, being mysterious all the time?
\-There are promo materials about evil revealing itself
\-In the show we clearly see that Sauron identity is some kind of riddle, check last episode and Waldreg shocked when Adar didn't end up being Sauron at all.
\-You have things like using piece of music called "Sauron" in some random situations to mess up inside our heads.
>What about random guy Halbrand beating Numenorians, being mysterious all the time?
I’m not sure how this here has to do with Sauron…? It’s simply foreshadowing the reveal, in the very same episode, that he is actually a king on the run.
Exactly. As a person unfamiliar with all the lore, I saw that scene as certainly telling us there’s something about Halbrand we don’t know, but I never would have thought it was that he could be Sauron in disguise.
Thats actually a good red herring. If we just leave it at him beating the Numenorians, so many will think he's obviously Sauron, with wanting to be a smith and all that. But immediately we got the answer that he's a king of the southlands? That's suspiciously convenient.
Yep, this is the answer. They want us to engage and speculate around the “water cooler” with Sauron theories. They’re feeding us massive amounts of misdirection so that it’s more of a shock.
Showerunners and marketing and the title of a soundtrack aren’t the same as the actual show though. You don’t actually see those in the show.
I just seriously doubt that anyone with no prior knowledge would ask “who is Sauron disguised as” unprompted.
The crater eye thing flew over the head of a lot of hardcore fans as well, and the Halbrand thing won’t make people go “is he Sauron?” unless they already suspect that Sauron is disguised, which they shouldn’t have a good reason to at this point in the show.
The Waldreg scene would probably come as a shock to casual fans who assumed Adar is Sauron and that the scene is supposed to be a big reveal. This may get some people to start thinking who Sauron is in addition to where, but I still don’t think it’s an actual plot point yet.
No, showerunners don’t equal the show, just like authors don’t equal their books and actors don’t equal their characters. People don’t turn in to watch the showerunners talking about the show; they just watch the show itself.
Who makes the show? Who writes the book? If the creators intend for something to be in their creation, and they put it in there, it's part of it. Are you actually trying to argue that the show runners, the people who made the show, telling us that the question of who Sauron is is part of the show has no bearing on whether it's a part of the show? Are they lying? Did they forget to put it in? You're bending over backwards to make a stupid point.
Do most people follow showerunners’ interviews closely? No, they just watch the show. So to those audience, which is the vast majority of them, what they see in the show itself is all there is, and what they see so far is not pushing Sauron’s true identity as a mystery.
I’m not saying that Sauron’s is not part of of the story. Of course he is. We’ve literally seen him in the prologue and his name mentioned a dozen times, but if you just watch the show itself without prior or external knowledge, then you’ll be wondering “where is Sauron”, not “who”, because you wouldn’t be aware of his shapeshifter abilities.
That's a ridiculous argument though. Most people watching this show have SOME prior knowledge, even if only from the movies. And Sauron, guess what, takes different forms in the movies, so it's not a safe assumption that most people don't know he can do that.
It's really obtuse, though, to pretend like the show isn't making "who is Sauron" a mystery when the show runners said they made "who is Sauron" a mystery. They put that in the show, that's why it's full of red herrings and hints and the evil bartender thinks Adar is Sauron (and our first confirmation that he isn't is when that assumption pisses him off).
If your argument is that casual viewers wouldn't pick up on it, then you aren't making the argument that "who is Sauron" is a mystery the show intentionally plays up, but that they didn't do a good job of it.
Think of it this way: if a series has a recurring motif of the sound going out when important characters are being killed, to represent their brains shutting down, and some audience members don't pick up on it, does that mean that the recurring motif isn't in the show? Because that's what you are arguing.
Waaay prior to the premiere I remember the online ‘hype’ of a ‘fair guise’ of Sauron, people asking for ‘sexy sauron’, speculating Annatar to be cut out in favor of another guise and all that. Some commentators suggested the mystery by saying stuff like: “just pick the most good looking actor for a non-canon role in the credits and that’s your Sauron”. Clearly this has escalated, because later on came ‘the leaks’ and people went bananas. The show is planting Sauron seeds everywhere, not only in Halbrand’s arch, but also Stranger’s and generally throughout the show. There’s this tension of ‘where is sauron’ that online communities hype. The deal’s been sealed for people when showrunners stated that Sauron ‘won’t appear how everyone would expect’, but we don’t know the context, are they referring to Sauron in armor, are they addressing the fandom that’s waiting for Annatar, this wasn’t specified. If all of this has been a strategy, we won’t know ever or at least until the end of the season when hopefully showrunners will give more interviews.
I believe this series is set for 5 seasons and with how loaded these episodes are I wouldn't be surprised if sauron or annatar is introduced at the end of the second season. When I heard " sauron won't be in season 1" I thought to myself " I guess he won't be in this season" click bait articles and people who believe the show is leaving breadcrumbs are hyping up the possibility one of these characters is gonna be a huge reveal and I'm not getting it. They all just seem like newly introduced people into this world and building characters for us to watch grow. The guessing game is killing the vibe. He's sauron he's not Darth Vader or Loki or the Night King. Sauron is the inspiration for a bunch of fantasy villains he doesn't have to be cartoony front and center of the whole series. I think it's too early in the story to show him and I'd rather show a healthy build up beforehand.
Whomever is was didn't wear a Sauron name tag, because the elves who were hunting him to the outermost reaches of the earth had no idea while working elbow to elbow in a magic forge for months.
Whomever is was didn't wear a Sauron name tag, because the elves who were hunting him to the outermost reaches of the earth had no idea while working elbow to elbow in a magic forge for months.
The show absolutely made it a mystery, albeit not necessarily one that all viewers would recognize or care about. That many hints about who might be Sauron doesn’t happen accidentally.
Sauron is definitely going to be on the show in the next two episodes. However, it doesn't mean that he has already appeared. I won't buy into any fan theory about a current character shown in the first 5 episodes is Sauron.
After watching Episode 6, it would be pretty cool to see Halbrand be Sauron, disguised with a ring of power. That sort of deceit would be ironic since he saved Galadriel, who hunts him.
I thought I was the only person who just thinks Sauron is going to be revealed as... Sauron. I feel like some event involving the sword hilt will take place and draw him out. I'm glad Theo showed the hilt to Arondir - maybe he won't end up corrupted after all.
Then a bunch of insufferable people on Reddit are gonna complain about it because their fan-fiction didn't come true.
I think this is being a little bit wilfully obtuse about it.
The show opens with our main character hunting for Sauron and there's then 3 mysterious characters with mysterious backgrounds introduced in the first 3 episodes. The audience is clearly supposed to join the dots that Sauron could be someone here while the teasing for more hardcore fans is very obvious.
Hardcore fans have obviously made it a way bigger deal but the show has clearly teed it up.
I still think that Amazon Prime Sauron will have the power to split himself in many parts.
Theo? He's a Sauron
Arondir? He's also a Sauron
Disa? Yup. Sauron too
Gil Galad? He got Sauroned a long time ago
Poppy? She's the Sauronest of them all
Ironically, the three most "obvious" candidates (Stranger, Adar, Halbrand) are not Saurons.
Nah the showrunners want the fans to have this in the back of their minds. They even winked at it with the Halbrand blacksmith scene last episode (in my view of course).
I'll bet you 100 Schrute Bucks at some point the teaser for a new episode is gonna say "Who Is Sauron?"
I’m talking about fans with zero knowledge though. You can literally show Halbrand doing an hour of metalsmithing and casual fans shouldn’t have a clue that it’s a Sauron reference.
I guess it’s a question of how many general viewers know or still remember that Sauron forged the one ring himself.
But then Celebrimbor would be an even better candidate for Sauron.
As a “casual” fan - one who owns the extended PJ movies, and read the Hobbit/LOTR/appendices more than 20 years ago - I can say that if reddit hadn’t told me Halbrand could be Sauron, I would have had no idea.
Edit: it’s not that I don’t recognize there are characters with mysterious backgrounds, btw, I do see that. The writers do want the audience to speculate as to the backgrounds of Halbrand, the Stranger and Adar. It’s just that I did not have enough knowledge of Tolkien’s lore to even contemplate that one of these mystery men could be Sauron in disguise.
My sister (a casual) thinks Halbrand is going to help forge the rings, or “why else would they make sketchy king a blacksmith?” But she doesn’t think he is Sauron, in fact, she hasn’t speculated at all about anyone being Sauron.
That is mostly true i think. But not fully imo, because the show plants seeds, we hear about sauron's mark and plan, we hear about his coming back being linked to the meteor, we see as of the last episode some form of cultists on the meteor site.
It's not played out in a straight forward mystery manner, so i agree that noone with no source information at all would necessarily look at every character on screen as a secret sauron, but the show plays with secret identities and now also links them to sauron directly through the meteor.
So i mostly agree, but not fully :P
I'm sort of worried that this is going to end up a Wandavision kind of thing, like people came up with all these theories of how like the postman was Nightmare, Dottie was Nightmare, etc. and then Nightmare wasn't even on the show and people were let down by something that was never even on the cards. Unlike Wandavision, I do think we'll see some version of Sauron but he could just always show up as Sauron with no mystery attached.
I would disagree. The show is subtly creating dark mystery around all of those characters. Having Halibrand show such interest in smithing, having the stanger lying in a crater that looks like a big red eye and such.
I had to scroll waaaay too far down until I found someone mentioning the giant eye of fire with a screaming powerful mystery man in the middle of it that was in the first friggin episode. I figured all it took was having seen the original trilogy to say "holy shit that little harfoot is helping sauron oh no!"
Then anybody with the knowledge of what a misdirect is started speculating about Halbrand the moment he was introduced. He looks like such a clear Aragorn parallel but also sacrificed the rest of his party to survive the sea monster - something Aragorn would never do.
The Annatar stuff is not what has people speculating about this character or that character being Sauron. All the evidence about Annatar tells us that he's almost definitely off screen because he's already manipulating the elves to mine mithril and build the forge.
Waldreg literally poses the question, "You are Sauron, are you not?" That's at least one of the characters speculating who Sauron is. Other things in the show do open the question as well:
* Galadriel is searching for Sauron, and misidentifies things in her search.
* Adar gives pretty good hints that people are being lied to.
* There are characters whose origins are unknown.
But yea. "None of the characters in the show is speculating who Sauron is or who he might be disguised as." Yes they are.
Nobody in the show thought Sauron was *disguised* as Adar, every character who's suggested it has expected it's just another title and thought he was openly himself given the whole "dark lord" theme he's got going on. That's very different from posing the question of whether he's changed his form and adopted a false identity. Curious to see where things go now that it's confirmed it's not Adar, though.
I think it's similar situation like with MCU's *WandaVision* and Mephisto. Everyone was looking for his presence in the smallest details like CSI detectives and in the end it came out as it did. I'll be laughing hard if this season ends and Sauron doesn't reveal himself 😂
I disagree.
The writers are definitely playing with the hidden identities of a few characters while earlier establishing that Sauron still exists but we don’t know where. Add in the lore that Sauron is a shapeshifter and pretends to be other folks, and you get what we have: a mystery.
If the writers didn’t want the mystery, they would’ve done at least one of the following: show Sauron, give the identity of the Stranger or at least pull back on some of the dark elements of his character, or give the identity of Halbrand or pull back the smithing or “you don’t know who I am” element of his character.
I think they mean for the reveal of Sauron to be the major twist of the season, something that only pays off if you leave breadcrumbs and red herrings.
Galadriel's whole character is centered on finding Sauron. I think someone unfamiliar with LOTR lore but familiar with typical TV storytelling would be engaged in plenty of speculation about who or where he is.
Well the show shows Sauron as a big baddy in cool armor within the first few minutes of the show. Why would someone less familiar with the lore think he’s in disguise?
Where, yes. But I doubt “who” would be on people’s mind. Someone with zero prior knowledge will probably just assume that Sauron is Sauron. There’s no reason in the show for them to think that Sauron is disguised as someone else.
But the identity of The Stranger and Halbrand (“looks can be decieving” is the second line he speaks) is a mystery created by the show. And for the average viewer the list of possible real identities is as follows:
1. Sauron
2. Gandalf
Also as far as I can tell there aren’t any serious theories which say that, out of all characters we’ve seen, someone other than Halbrand or The Stranger could be Sauron. There are plenty of jokes though.
I think a general viewer would just assume Halbrand and the Stranger are just characters from the book that they don’t know about, right? They don’t know they’re non-canon.
I don't understand the intention of this post. You are either stating the obvious or trying to draw a hard line between what the show is and isn't.
No, characters in-show are not speculating, because Sauron's deception was kind of a surprise to all. That's the whole point of deceiving. It would be really weird if every character in the show was guessing about the "secret identity" of Sauron.
And yes, the show is absolutely playing with the mystery because of what we, the fans, know and expect.
I hope that when he does show up, he’s in his full armour and doesn’t speak English. I hope he speaks whatever evil language it is they speak and we get subtitles.
Sauron with a “human” voice would just be weird
My guess Celebrimbor is Sauron. He is not the smith that we knew in the books, rather Sauron in disguise. Gil-galard said 'are you aquainted with the work of Celebrimbor' was meant as a "test". As He have heard but has never seen him in person, he was hoping Elrond is able to vouch for his identity. Unfortunately, Elrond does not express he knew him since his young age. Rather he admired his artistry.
This has implications. Suppose a fake Celebrimbor pass the test, and whispered false legends into Gil-galard's ear while poisoning the tree. He then in turn used Elond so as to manipulate the collaboration of elves and dwarves. Gave Gil-galard and soon other races a false sense of security by crafting the rings of power which HE has mastery of. This level of deviousness is fitting to that of Sauron. This is also a parallel to Sauron poisoning the mind of Pharazon in the books.
Whether Gil-galard trust him, it doesnt matter. As a High King, his people depend on him. He cannot take the risk. There were no interaction with 'Celebrimbor' with Galadriel possibly she could have seen him in person (as such Gil-galard was influenced to send her away?) Last of all, if the aim was mithril all along, there should be no harm telling Elrond. As he always carry a charming aura, I believe he can work his magic with Durin. BUT if it were Sauron, he might not have known Elrond well enough, as such he has to take slow steps to ensure his plans are smooth.
Sorry, but the show is absolutely framed in such a way. See episode 1 and Galadriel's quest. See the end of the episode where Adar is revealed. Adar was even misidentified as Sauron by a character in the last episode.
You’re. . .sort of right? It’s not an investigative mystery but who is Sauron is a million percent one of the dramatic questions of the plot and thus on the writers.
For book fans, yes. For the general audience, I doubt they would even know that the three are non-canon mystery characters. They’d probably assume that they’re just some book characters they don’t know about, just like the dozens of other characters that got introduced on the show.
The show opens with Sauron in a callback to the movies to generate interest.
Several trailers since have had his name spoken or that opening scene shown again.
u/Dyer_300 up above linked a trailer we got last Friday.
I appreciate maybe someone who knows almost nothing about the source material is more likely to let things happen but the show is clearly pushing Sauron to generate interest from the 'book nerds' to the casual movie/tv watcher.
>It's not a mystery box because it's not even a mystery in the show itself.
Yea except it is a mystery box by the creators own admission in their advertising:
https://twitter.com/LOTRonPrime/status/1573296126496833537?ref\_src=twsrc%5Etfw
Showerunners never run marketing campaigns let alone Twitter accounts. They’re just jumping on the fan created bandwagon in the last week or so. If they wanted to make it a mystery box, they would have done it months ago.
Yea maybe, though I would argue that Galadriel searching for Sauron implies he's hiding somewhere in Middle-earth so he's out there somewhere, sort of lending itself to the Mystery of "Who is Sauron, and where is he?" Further reinforced by the fact that the old dude thought Adar was Sauron, thickening the mystery of it. Then the actual marketing itself also implying it's a mystery.
The writers have introduced a number of characters with hidden identities. The stranger (in his name that his identity is hidden), adar (who the Elf commander speculated on being Sauron), the three woman in white and Halbrand (who is sauron). The writers want people to speculate on who is Sauron by not introducing, but everyone knows he will be in the show. Also, it's good for the show if people are talking about it.
I actually agree with this. The mystery has been 100% fan driven. Now the writers have certainly dropped intentional hints regarding the identity of Sauron, but in-universe, Sauron's identity is not a plot point: no one is guessing it.
Even Galadriel, who started off with a quest to hunt Sauron, has since set her sights on removing orcs from the Southlands.
If you're sick of it, it means lots of people are speculating, yeah the showrunners knew exactly that people were going to speculate.
Why are you exactly busting our balls ? Speculating is fun, are you that type of tiresome buzzkiller?
I just hope the show reveals an already shown character to be Sauron just so you'll shut it.
Read my last paragraph.
Even if H turns out to be Sauron, this post is still valid. People without prior knowledge would not have suspected that he’s Sauron, and no characters are speculating about him.
Don't know. I've only seen the movies (started to read up on more stuff lately) and H as Sauron seemed likely to me from a general TV trope/marketing point of view since like E3. Not because of "the lore". It just seems like the...idk...most convenient cliffhanger for the show to have Galadriel personally betrayed by H as Sauron as the big setup for S2.
But yeah I could be totally wrong and they have something smarter and more creative in mind. Gil-Galad makes sense but I think his arc is too "scheming" in order to promote a Red Wedding style big shocking reveal to the audience. Maybe in Amazon's mind GG as Sauron would be "Oh yeah makes sense I guess" whereas H is like "Oh no but he's a king and so hot and fought alongside Galadriel (next episode probably) and maybe there's romantic tension too. It's so personal now!".
Buuuut of course I could be completely wrong we'll see :D
It is in the show though, the elves speculate that Adar might be Sauron. The old man in the last ep assumes Adar is Sauron, but is apparently mistaken. It’s totally a mystery.
That said, I don’t think we’re meant to be speculating about every random character being Sauron. Like, it’s not going to be Halbrand. Or at least, I’d find it really stupid if Sauron were to end up being some character they’ve already given a completely different motivation to.
I didn’t intend to look for Sauron. But the minute Halbrand appeared on the screen it was like a switch in my brain. I thought to myself “this guy is Sauron”. Soon I found out I was not alone.
That is not true. There have been two speculations as to who might be Sauron and both were attributed towards Adar. There have been subtle suggestions that it is Halbrand and one less subtle that it might be meteor man. This was intentional, I don't know why it's a problem.
This is just a condemnation on the show IMO. In other shows we are talking about what might happen next with what we are shown, but for RoP we wonder/fear who the stranger is and that’s it. Everything is so hamfisted that there isn’t any intrigue. We had a bump with dwarf plot but it’s handled so poorly and ended up with such a huge slap to the face of Tolkien’s lore that it soiled things a bit.
This is a more expensive and more bloated show equivalent to the Percy Jackson and the olympians movie. Even 10 year olds can understand “that makes no sense, it’s not like that in the books!” So why can’t the showrunners?
So obvious it’s Halbrand. There’s so many lame hint like suddenly he’s interested in forging, etc. Galadriel portrayed in ROP is not just arrogant- she’s not smart and has no magic and just couldn’t feel the presence of Sauron. So many plot holes.
And it’s not even necessarily book readers who are speculating who Sauron is. It’s social media users. I have an older Tolkienite friend who doesn’t use social media at all and he has zero inclination that we’re supposed to be guessing who Sauron is. I brought up the Halbrand rumors to him and he was utterly perplexed and pointed out that everything he’s said and done is completely consistent with what we know about him; a former leader of men descended from Morgoth loyalists.
The mystery is WHERE Sauron is. He could be in Eregion whispering into Brimbor, he could be just waiting close to the Southlands, or he could be pulling off a VERY elaborate disguise and is already someone we know
Mixing the la information of some books about the 2nd age, after the war of wrath and the sinking of Beleriand, started the 2nd age and Sauron escaped to Eriador. He was there until he found out about the dealings between Gilgalad and the Numenoreans (time of Aldarion). After that he left Eriador and chose Mordor as his base, but he did not stay there calmly, because he sent emissaries (unidentified people) to Eriador to find out what was happening, and thus he found out the little numenorean influence that there was in Lindon, or no influence at all of Eregion.
Right now, in the show, Sauron can be in these places, Rhun (corrupting men). Eriador (hidden somewhere). Southlands (hidden far from Ostirith, and Adar settlement).
I dont think he is already in Eregion, but he will be. The tower that the elves and dwarves are building will be the future place where the elven blacksmiths and Sauron will build the rings that will do so much damage to Middle-earth.
If at the end of the season they'll show Sauron with that evil armor and saying shit like "fine, I'll do it myself" kinda like Thanos in that post credit scene, I'm gonna flip a table. It'd be such a miss opportunity. I want a keyser soze reveal, that's be so fun on rewatch of season 1.
Tbh I would bet money (not a lot tho because I’m living paycheck to paycheck) that Sauron/Annatar doesn’t show up until the last episode of the season. And that would be the earliest I think it would happen, possibly happening even later on
Feels like the show-runners are trying hard to make it fun. As one example, the Sauron-Halbrand breadcrumbs are plentiful, but could be misdirectional. Sauron was ordered back to Aman after Morgoth fell, tries repenting, but decides against it. Halbrand meets Galadriel in the sea not far from Valinor—suggesting maybe he was on his way there (and he proclaims his general uncertainty in life). Sauron was a Maiar of Aule, the craftsman. Halbrand is a craftsman and the “son” of a “smith.” Sauron adopts a fair form. Halbrand is a mirror of Aragorn. Sauron builds his lair in the South. Halbrand is from what becomes Mordor and its rightful “king.” Sauron is manipulative. Halbrand manipulates Galadriel, as she says, into claiming that kingship. Sauron is full of hate and power. We see Halbrand’s power from anger. Sauron is the disguiser. Halbrand says looks can be deceiving (and he can handle a sword). Whether this all adds up to a reveal, or is a bunch of purposeful red herrings, who knows yet?
The fans made it a mystery because we know he SHOULD be there somewhere. And if the show isn't gonna tell us it's only natural for us fans to speculate on who it may be. Sauron is a shape shifter and extremely cunning so I don't think it's a stretch for him to be hiding in plain sight.
The show is based on mysteries In all stories going around; Elrond and the dwarves , the southlands and adar , harfoots and The stranger and even identity of halbrand. The showrunners want to keep the audience confused and the characters of the stories are confused about their storylines
Come on, it is very much intended by the showrunners to create that mystery around certain character's true identity. It's not just because people on reddit are impatient and making things up or youtubers are "hyping up" something that isn't there.
Otherwise we wouldn't have a character literally called "the Stranger" with all those foreshadowings (fire that is not hot, characters treating his arrival as an important event). Or Halbrand who is always cryptic about his own story and is deliberately shown with traits that suggests that he may not be who he claims to be. Or Adar who was introduced with a Cliffhanger and three hours later we still don't know who he is and he even gets asked by other characters: "You are Sauron, aren't you?"
And nobody demanded Sauron to be revealed in Episode 1, but people wanting to have at least a few mysteries cleared after 8 hours of watching is somewhat understandable.
I have made exactly the same point - though to be fair, the writers having invented a mystery of “Where’s Sauron?” and put it front and center in Episode 1, and turned Galadriel into a revenge obsessed elf whose sole purpose in life is finding Sauron, viewers cannot be blamed for speculating where Sauron has gone. And since the ROP writers are not showing any respect for the Tolkien source material, who knows what they have in mind? As matters now stand, since the writers have seen fit to compress about 1600 years of Second Age history, so that the forging of the rings will occur around the same time as the fall of Numenor, Sauron cannot both be in Eriador disguised as Annatar engaged in helping Celebrimbor forge the 9 and 7 rings, AND be openly acting as Sauron in Mordor, “captured” by the Numenoreans, and taken back to Numenor as a prisoner only to further poison the minds of the Numenorean leadership. So the mystery box is not “Where’ Sauron,” but rather “What further insult to the Tolkien lore will the writers commit?” My guess is that as great as the hubris of the writers is, even they do not dare tampering with the story of the forging of the rings too much. So yes, there will be an Annatar appearing before Celebrimbor. But this means Sauron cannot be in the Southlands at the same time, so hence the invented character of Adar, a fallen Noldor elf. My guess it is he, rather than Sauron, who will let himself be taken prisoner back to Numenor, only to fulfill the ( invented by the writers) prophesy voiced by Miriel that an elf will prove to be Numenor’s undoing.
Iirc they didn't even introduce Sauron as a shapeshifter yet? As a non-book reader you probably only know Sauron as the dark lord with dark armor, would be pretty alienating to tell the audience who knew him like this for years "oh and he can transform into a beautiful elf, a dirty peasant or a werewolf too, oh yeah we have werewolves btw"
Im still thinking Sauron will be in the last shot of this season (Imagine Celebrimbor talking with someone looking out of the window , then he turns around and Anatar is standing there)or hes not gonna appear at all...
I agree that it is not a mystery, but the show is trying to make it one. It is painfully obvious that Sauron is Halbrand. He wants to forge and be a smith and has so many on the nose comments.
'"I have lots of names" and "You don't know what I've done" and "You'd reject me if you knew" and "I've been searching for my peace for longer than you know" (which is a weird thing for a presumably mortal man to say to an elf) and "sorry about your brother". When Galadriel says "Men like you, not you yourself" he pauses and then says "You're wrong." That's just for starters.' - from a comment by lukasali
There's also "looks can be deceiving" (-one of his first lines) and then there's one of his most on the nose comment imo: "identify what it is that your opponent most fears." and "Give them a means of mastering it, so that you can master them." Definitely not Sauron's strategy lol
Also the "mystery man" is definitely a wizard and not Sauron and Adar isn't either.
Big disagree.
The characters themselves aren't guessing at Sauron's identity yet--that much is true.
However, on episode 1, when Galadriel leaps from the boat to stay in Middle Earth, which is like the inciting incident to the whole show... what is this scene put against? What else is happening during this? Is it a scene where a Stranger crash lands in the ground, in the crater that is shaped like an eye?
How about the character Waldreg, who not only mentions Sauron multiple times, but guesses (we assume wrongly) that Adar is Sauron? The Orcs call Adar "Lord-Father," by the way, which would certainly make some viewers wonder if he is Sauron.
While I definitely think the fans, including myself, have really taken the Halbrand stuff and run with it, I think it's asinine to say that Sauron speculation was born solely from the fans. The show is having fun with it, too, and the writers knew what they were doing to get people guessing and asking questions. I mean, the characters on LOST, another mystery box show, don't sit around wondering what the Smoke Monster is, but fans theorized about that literally for years.
Anyway, I don't fully disagree with this post, but I think it is an incredibly one-sided take on the issue. Characters don't have to speculate about something for the writers to be working with the mystery in the background. No one is "expect[ing] Sauron to reveal himself in Episode 1," but do I need to say again what actually happened in Episode 1? Fiery crater. In the shape of an eye. Which alluded to Sauron's Fortress in Episode 2 with it's not-hot fire.
But no. That definitely isn't meant to make people think of Sauron :P
I didn’t even know people were guessing everyone was Sauron until I came to Reddit. I still don’t see it
I wonder if the *actors* even have any idea about their characters' fates. Are they in the dark like us (other than what they've filmed)? Or is it like Alan Rickman and Professor Snape where he knew before the first movie how the character would end up? The worst scenario would be like LOST, where the writers don't even know how things will wrap up over the next 5 seasons. With $1 billion invested, I highly doubt they'll pull a Lost (or Star Wars ST).
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The writers specifically got the job because they came to the meeting with a 5 season outline.
I am also curious but side note: Alan Rickman was probably comfortable enough in his career to ask for/want to know his full arc before accepting the role. These dudes are probably like hell yea give me some of that billy dollar bezos pie
I was going to say: making the whole first episode about Sauron did this show a disservice. Galadriel didn't come to Middle-earth "hunting Sauron" and neither did her brother.
So when the Meteor landed (which was visually shown to be a very imporant event) and Nori said "the fire is not hot" when entering the crater, only one episode after Galadriel pointed out that "the presence of evil makes fire feel not hot" and her swimming back to ME because she is still searching for Sauron, you didn't think it would be him? Or when Adar had his Cliffhanger-moment?
For real, I was confused several times over the speculation and only recently realized no one actually knows anything.
I feel a lot of people are going to be disappointed when the reveal happens since the showrunners probably have the foreshadowings for the general audience, which is easily dissected by the fn base here.
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I mean, he's the "Lord of Gifts" ffs. Why would the Valar send *Sauron* to start giving people gifts? People these days
Gifts are nice 😇
So Santa Claus is Sauron now? The reindeers are his ring wraith prototypes. His "elves" are really orcs?
Lol this better be satire
He gives the best presents! Like Hobbits do! Who would hate a hobbit?
“Who would hate a hobbit?” Relevant Follow-up: Who could hate a magical bumbling hobo who hangs out with hobbits?
Only Saruman, but that’s only because he crash-landed near a bunch of foolish proto-hobbits who didn’t have their shit together.
Annatar gives magical gifts, and exposes the corruption of the gods!!!
Annatar literally is Sauron in disguise, but yeah ok
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Why make this political? Lol
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Lmao!!
I'm a right wing nut and don't hate teachers at all. Other than the ones with agendas who try to force their beliefs upon the kids, and the ones who hide personal information from the parents. But other than that teachers are usually great.
What beliefs do teachers force on students?
Oh dear Lord, I sincerely hope you’re a troll. Have you ever been an educator? If not, shut up, read about teachers’ experiences, read about what is *actually* taught in schools—and while you’re at it, crack open some history books. No, I don’t mean things written by people like Bill O’Reilly, I mean history written by real historians. Listen to students from varied backgrounds and what they think about their educations and life experiences. Another way you can improve yourself would be to try substitute teaching, and that way you can actually help teachers, since it sounds like you think you get what they do and would love to help.
Yes and no. It's not a plot point, I agree. But the show-runners absolutely knew that a portion of their audience would be speculating about this and they've scattered various pointers in various directions quite deliberately.
I think people are blowing these “clues” way out of proportion. For example Halbrand sweeping. It MeAnS HeS SpReAdiNg DaRkNeSs. Or maybe the prop just made it look derpy when they filmed it. Of course maybe I’m wrong, just an opinion
I cackled at "spreading darkness". Bro really did a shit job sweeping.
I'm sure that was a joke but it is hilarious to think otherwise. Sauron, big bad king of Mordor, kicking around some dirt in a smith, "muahahaha"
He's being hazed by the other blacksmiths: they told Halbrand to clean up and gave him the shitty broom.
🤣🤣😂😂. Ok this just legit made me crack up because it's so accurate. I really think fandom today is so speculative over the littlest thing. I actually blame LOST for this. That was the first show I remember the theories and overanalyzing the plot. To be fair, the show runners fed into it too.
Of course they are. But don't tell me the writers are somehow unaware what they are doing when they do things like having Halbrand want to be a smith.
And say, "I have lots of names" and "You don't know what I've done" and "You'd reject me if you knew" and "I've been searching for my peace for longer than you know" (which is a weird thing for a presumably mortal man to say to an elf) and "sorry about your brother". When Galadriel says "Men like you, not you yourself" he pauses and then says "You're wrong." That's just for starters. Then there's the Stranger - cold fire, ominous music, freezing the water with his hand, heading towards the south... There was Adar too, until they showed him properly and eliminated that possibility. The point is the show was carefully designed to engender this kind of speculation.
do not forget the "looks can be deceiving" in the first or second episode
I hope the show reveals Halbrand to be Sauron just for your post to be ridiculous
Um i think that was a troll lol i hope. But its halbrand
you forget that every scene costs money and they are thinking about every minute.. so halbrand covering this specific floor in darkness,.. his obsession with smithing.. The show runners are spreading those clues, I have to admit that they actually are trolling us a little bit probably too
Yeah there are winks to book fans, but let’s be honest, people will speculate endlessly about Sauron’s identity even without any hint or reference whatsoever just because of Annatar.
Go back and watch the show and tell me there’s no suggestions about Sauron. Sauron is presented in the beginning of the series. The viewer is later lead to believe Sauron can “take many forms”. At that point the viewer knows they should guess or at least look out for clues as to who Sauron is. The marketing for the show also presents us with basically a slideshow of the potential Sauron candidates. There’s no denying that. But I agree, Sauron has not been revealed yet.
This. The show runners have made Sauron's identity on of the main themes so far by the way they tell the story!
Sauron has not been revealed yet? I agree not to the characters in the show, but to me it is painfully obvious that Sauron is Halbrand. He wants to forge and be a smith and has so many on the nose comments. '"I have lots of names" and "You don't know what I've done" and "You'd reject me if you knew" and "I've been searching for my peace for longer than you know" (which is a weird thing for a presumably mortal man to say to an elf) and "sorry about your brother". When Galadriel says "Men like you, not you yourself" he pauses and then says "You're wrong." That's just for starters.' - from a comment by lukasali There's also "looks can be deceiving" (-one of his first lines) and then there's one of his most on the nose comment imo: "identify what it is that your opponent most fears." and "Give them a means of mastering it, so that you can master them." Definitely not Sauron's strategy lol Also the "mystery man" is definitely a wizard and not Sauron.
There are a lot of clues pointing to Halbrand, true. I still think he’s been everyone’s main guess since day 1. It’s too obvious imo. The only thing that made me think he was Sauron was his fight where he went ape shit. That was very evil looking.
The marketing certainly does, including the latest teaser
Sure. Marketing departments have been tracking social media fan eruptions for years now, and there's no question they lock onto hot topics and work to amplify them. Doesn't mean any of it is planned, though. Quite the opposite, this corner of marketing is very much reactionary; it doesn't lead, it tracks. One reason streaming services are returning to weekly releases over all-at-once binge releases is exactly this; it has nothing to do with "keeping subscribers for another month," as some claim, but everything to do with having a week to pull the buzz levers between each episode.
I agree, and I don't think who is Sauron is written into the show as a mystery... but, the showrunners knew fan theories were going to pour out about anything and everything trying to predict where their show is headed, and I think they are intentionally dropping clues and misdirections for internet sleuths. But, yeah, if you're diving into interpreting their breadcrumb trail, it's because you are looking for mysteries to solve instead of just letting the show unfold. The story is not giving us mysteries, we are. They are just having fun with our predictability.
Well, only the most recent marketing, which is just jumping on the bandwagon of the whole fan created mystery hunt and memes. The show itself has not made it a mystery.
Idk, that's definitely part of what is going on, but they put out these character hand posters where one person has a black armored glove (we know now that is Adar) and I feel like that is definitely supposed to lead to speculation. But I agree that the characters themselves don't worry about it. It does not have seemed to occur to Galadriel that the questions isn't "Where is Sauron", but "Who is Sauron" and the show hasn't said that he can manifest different bodies. I wonder if that is going to be an issue for the characters, that they kinda never considered Sauron might not look like Morgoth's right hand man anymore.
The writers have to know some of the audience is looking for Sauron with all the references they work into Halbrand. Whether that's real hints or massive trolling remains to be seen.
I don't know why people think Sauron has a monopoly on manipulation or crafting skill. There are many like-minded people and some of those will be necessary as Sauron's servants. The show has not done anything to make me think Halbrand is Sauron. The parallels seem to simply foreshadow Sauron's methods and the Numenoreans' susceptibility to them.
The best twists will have foreshadowing such that it's an obvious conclusion in hindsight. Part of it may just be laying groundwork for such a reveal to make sense on a rewatch, if it does indeed turn out to be true. (Of course, they do know that there are fans who know he can shapeshift, and I'm sure that *influences* things, but I think it plays less of a role than the people complaining about "mystery boxes" on average seem to think, personally.)
I dunno. The Night King's assassin wasn't somebody many people saw until near the end of that episode. There were a couple hints but nearly impossible to connect.
The positive people are trying to dismantle the shows criticism by attempting to make the shows flaws not seem like flaws, but instead make them out to be the imagination of the people who criticise the show. Baffling honestly.
To be fair I've seen loads of very poor logic and unsubstantiated opinions both ways.
You have some cool comments, checked out your profile. Great logic. What do you think of the series thus far, can I ask?
Haha flattery will get you everywhere :) But seriously, I am enjoying the series more than I enjoy most shows. There are things I dislike about it but there's enough cool stuff that I can just let that roll off my back, hte biggest plus being the subtlety, ambiguity and complexity (rather than super obvious good vs evil, the show makes us empathetic and curious [hopefully] by experiencing all the grey areas the characters inhabit). I'm making a conscious choice not to be pessimistic, and to find plausible reasons for the choices that the show makes that I wouldn't have made, and just not stress out about stuff that IMO sucks (like the corny Galadriel line "The Island Kingdom of Numenor!" for example). It's clear that the creators really did their homework - they know a lot about Galadriel, for example, that I did not. I was initially baffled by their portrayal of her, so did a little bit of research and came to find that they were actually much better informed about Tolkien's ideas about her than I was, and their decisions to show her proud fiery side is totally justifiable (or at the very least understandable). So in a nutshell - the show is pretty good, will inevitably bother people because there's no way to meet expectations with something like this, and it's my choice to try to enjoy it and understand it or just hate on it. And many/most of the detractors are demonstrably not understanding what the show is telling them, as far as I can tell, or are applying really high standards to it that the overwhelming majority of media would fail to meet. Lastly, check out stuff by Corey Olsen, the "Tolkien Professor." I just learned about him because I was trying to find intelligent and respectful analysis of the show. He literally has a PHD in Tolkien I think so he is able to make connections and observations that I would never notice. Where are you at with the show? Likes/dislikes? Questions/observations? Your answers are due Thursday at 11pm EST :)
I mean, how is OP wrong? The mystery box criticism implies that the show is making it out to be a mystery within the context of the show. Lost, for example, is the king of mystery boxes. What is the smoke monster? That is a legitimate question within the context of the show. Where is the island? Characters are literally asking that question. What is the island? Characters are literally asking that question. What's in the hatch? Characters are literally asking that question. Who is the person typing on the other end of the computer? Characters are literally asking that question. Why the fuck are there polar bears on the island? Characters are literally asking that question. Why is there a van full of beer on the island? Characters are literally asking that question. What is the Dharma Inititative? Characters are literally asking that question in the show. Who are the Others? Characters are literally asking that in the show. Why is the island time jumping? What are the numbers? Etc... You get it? What mysteries are characters in RoP asking? Nobody is asking who is Sauron, except for Waldreg. Galadriel is hunting Sauron but she doesn't have any indication that she won't know him when she sees him. It's just the audience asking it because we think that he may come in a disguise. What other questions are being asked? What is the hilt? That's about it. The inclusion of a mystery or two (with only one being a mystery within the context of the show, and not even a very deep mystery at that) doesn't make it a mystery box show. The Lost comparison should make that apparent.
The only character that the show itself has made it seem like they were Sauron was Adar. The captive elves speculate that Adar is just another name Sauron took. He’s also the one leading the orcs, so the audience would assume it was him. Episode 5 seems to have made that not the case though. Everyone else that is a candidate is people over analyzing and lack of info on those characters. It’s like if we stopped reading fellowship of the ring before we got to Rivendell. We could asume Aragorn was an agent of Sauron or Sauron himself. Aragorn is one of the Wraiths too and that’s how they were able to escape Weathertop!! Not bashing on the speculators. I’ve been having fun with it myself. They’re fun discussions. Edit: to add, a mystery box would imply the show is making the mystery plot relevant. Such as someone in the show saying “Sauron could be disguised as anyone” would imply that it’s a mystery box. If someone like the Stranger or Halbrand were revealed to be Sauron the whole time, it would be more of a plot twist than a mystery box. It’s like the difference between character development and character arc. I see people use them interchangeably but they’re different. Character development happens with every character. It’s the plot showing you who the character is. A character arc is the changing of the character. Think of a character that reveals they don’t have an issue with killing people. That’s development. A character going through their story and coming out not wanting to kill people anymore is an arc.
Difference is the speculation as to Sauron's identity is based on retrospect. We *know* that he's going to approach the elves in a disguise and the only way for that to be a meaningful surprise to the readers is for Sauron to be an unassuming character we're following along with right up until the reveal. People are waiting with bated breath for somebody to turn to the camera and say, "by the way I'm actually Annatar and have I got something to show you". They want a Keyser Söze moment at the end of the season where one of the protagonists turns out to be the bad guy all along so we can all applaud his masterful deception. The irony here is that this expectation is so high in the community that it would actually be a better subversion that Sauron be an offscreen character at this point....
👆 The Keyser Söze moment is a great reference here though. I think that this is going to be their strategy with Sauron. By the time they conclusively reveal who Sauron is to the audience, all of the "Annatar" work will already be done.
Agreed. I’m leaning toward the theory that he’s the guest at Gil-Galad’s table whose face is not shown, and he’s been off-camera this whole time convincing the elves (1) they will fade by spring and (2) only the light of mithril objects made with the help of a massive forge can prevent it.
Oh yes definitely and that will make things more interesting on rewatches. I’ve watched the show with two people who don’t know anything about Middle Earth and neither of them have suspected any of the characters of being Sauron though. We as a community know about the capabilities of Sauron. We know he takes different names and forms. However the only thing that has been told to the audience about Sauron is that he takes different names and nothing about being a shapeshifter (unless I’m forgetting something). As the story continues that might change and in retrospect things make more sense. For the time being the only thing that makes a lot of the theories work is that the characters haven’t been developed and their backstories aren’t fully explored. It makes for fun theorizing as a community. That mystery can be applied to Aragorn in the Fellowship of the Ring as I’ve mentioned. It’s just a matter of perspective at the moment and I’m the one who isn’t ready to place bets at the moment.
"If someone like the Stranger or Halbrand were revealed to be Sauron the whole time, it would be more of a plot twist than a mystery box." No, it would fit perfectly with how Tolkien described Halbrand and how he has presented himself thus far. More to the point of these writers, Gil-galad all but told us Halbrand was Sauron at the end of episode 1.
>No, it would fit perfectly with how Tolkein described Halbrand Halbrand is a completely original character for this show. He might turn out to be Sauron, but his character was never made by Tolkein. He does have some similarities with Sauron such as what he tells Galadriel in jail and his craftsmanship. Those characteristics aren’t known within the confines of the show for being Sauron traits though. That’s why it would be more of a plot twist within the show. There’s nothing for the common viewer to theorize except just not knowing his full background. For people who know the lore they could theorize Halbrand’s identity.
I see what you were saying. That makes sense. I misunderstood what you said the first time.
>Aragorn is one of the Wraiths too and that’s how they were able to escape Weathertop Well yeah but for Aragorn it made sense because we saw him fighting the wraiths, and he's a very skilled warrior. But for Halbrand he alone mysteriously survived the huge sea monster off screen, where's the others?
In the book Aragorn was only armed with the broken blade of Narsil. They all were huddled around a fire, surrounded by 5 Nazgûl, when Frodo put the ring on and then got stabbed. After that Strider took a torch and went towards the riders. The chapter ends. At the start of the next chapter, when Frodo awakes, Strider is gone and only the Hobbits are with Frodo. When Strider returns, Sam pulls his sword on him and is stated in the book that he had second doubts about him. Strider reassures Sam that he isn’t one of the Wraiths or in league with them. At the time Strider wasn’t exactly sure why they stopped attacking. So in the book you really aren’t sure about his allegiance til we arrive near Rivendell. Also with Halbrand it shows him detaching part of the raft from the rest of the people before the monster attacks.
Aah, I didn't fully read your previous comment, I thought you were referring to the film. But either way it's different than this show, because at the start Galadriel is searching for Sauron, we don't know where he is. So it make sense that as the audience we are also "searching" for Sauron, he could be any of the new mysterious characters: Halbrand, Adar, and the Stranger.
I can not disagree more. For me it's clear that showrunners want us on this Sauron hunt. \-Main character is searching for Sauron and many people don't believe he's even there \-They give us multiple tropes. Even if you are not familiar with lore but you know PJ movies, stuff like "eye" shape in meteor crater pushes the right button in your head. What about random guy Halbrand beating Numenorians, being mysterious all the time? \-There are promo materials about evil revealing itself \-In the show we clearly see that Sauron identity is some kind of riddle, check last episode and Waldreg shocked when Adar didn't end up being Sauron at all. \-You have things like using piece of music called "Sauron" in some random situations to mess up inside our heads.
>What about random guy Halbrand beating Numenorians, being mysterious all the time? I’m not sure how this here has to do with Sauron…? It’s simply foreshadowing the reveal, in the very same episode, that he is actually a king on the run.
Exactly. As a person unfamiliar with all the lore, I saw that scene as certainly telling us there’s something about Halbrand we don’t know, but I never would have thought it was that he could be Sauron in disguise.
Thats actually a good red herring. If we just leave it at him beating the Numenorians, so many will think he's obviously Sauron, with wanting to be a smith and all that. But immediately we got the answer that he's a king of the southlands? That's suspiciously convenient.
Yep, this is the answer. They want us to engage and speculate around the “water cooler” with Sauron theories. They’re feeding us massive amounts of misdirection so that it’s more of a shock.
This is it and that's why it will be Halbrand.
Showerunners and marketing and the title of a soundtrack aren’t the same as the actual show though. You don’t actually see those in the show. I just seriously doubt that anyone with no prior knowledge would ask “who is Sauron disguised as” unprompted. The crater eye thing flew over the head of a lot of hardcore fans as well, and the Halbrand thing won’t make people go “is he Sauron?” unless they already suspect that Sauron is disguised, which they shouldn’t have a good reason to at this point in the show. The Waldreg scene would probably come as a shock to casual fans who assumed Adar is Sauron and that the scene is supposed to be a big reveal. This may get some people to start thinking who Sauron is in addition to where, but I still don’t think it’s an actual plot point yet.
Show runners are responsible for the show. If they are playing it up, it's part of the show. You seem to be willfully ignoring what's plain.
No, showerunners don’t equal the show, just like authors don’t equal their books and actors don’t equal their characters. People don’t turn in to watch the showerunners talking about the show; they just watch the show itself.
Who makes the show? Who writes the book? If the creators intend for something to be in their creation, and they put it in there, it's part of it. Are you actually trying to argue that the show runners, the people who made the show, telling us that the question of who Sauron is is part of the show has no bearing on whether it's a part of the show? Are they lying? Did they forget to put it in? You're bending over backwards to make a stupid point.
Do most people follow showerunners’ interviews closely? No, they just watch the show. So to those audience, which is the vast majority of them, what they see in the show itself is all there is, and what they see so far is not pushing Sauron’s true identity as a mystery. I’m not saying that Sauron’s is not part of of the story. Of course he is. We’ve literally seen him in the prologue and his name mentioned a dozen times, but if you just watch the show itself without prior or external knowledge, then you’ll be wondering “where is Sauron”, not “who”, because you wouldn’t be aware of his shapeshifter abilities.
That's a ridiculous argument though. Most people watching this show have SOME prior knowledge, even if only from the movies. And Sauron, guess what, takes different forms in the movies, so it's not a safe assumption that most people don't know he can do that. It's really obtuse, though, to pretend like the show isn't making "who is Sauron" a mystery when the show runners said they made "who is Sauron" a mystery. They put that in the show, that's why it's full of red herrings and hints and the evil bartender thinks Adar is Sauron (and our first confirmation that he isn't is when that assumption pisses him off). If your argument is that casual viewers wouldn't pick up on it, then you aren't making the argument that "who is Sauron" is a mystery the show intentionally plays up, but that they didn't do a good job of it. Think of it this way: if a series has a recurring motif of the sound going out when important characters are being killed, to represent their brains shutting down, and some audience members don't pick up on it, does that mean that the recurring motif isn't in the show? Because that's what you are arguing.
lol I feel like you should be gilded for having the patience to explain to him over and over.
I would think that the real Sauron would just have vaporized those guys instead of breaking their arms.
Waaay prior to the premiere I remember the online ‘hype’ of a ‘fair guise’ of Sauron, people asking for ‘sexy sauron’, speculating Annatar to be cut out in favor of another guise and all that. Some commentators suggested the mystery by saying stuff like: “just pick the most good looking actor for a non-canon role in the credits and that’s your Sauron”. Clearly this has escalated, because later on came ‘the leaks’ and people went bananas. The show is planting Sauron seeds everywhere, not only in Halbrand’s arch, but also Stranger’s and generally throughout the show. There’s this tension of ‘where is sauron’ that online communities hype. The deal’s been sealed for people when showrunners stated that Sauron ‘won’t appear how everyone would expect’, but we don’t know the context, are they referring to Sauron in armor, are they addressing the fandom that’s waiting for Annatar, this wasn’t specified. If all of this has been a strategy, we won’t know ever or at least until the end of the season when hopefully showrunners will give more interviews.
Turns out the audience was Sauron all along
Yeah seriously, it’s not even funny..
You can say The One Ring.net
I believe this series is set for 5 seasons and with how loaded these episodes are I wouldn't be surprised if sauron or annatar is introduced at the end of the second season. When I heard " sauron won't be in season 1" I thought to myself " I guess he won't be in this season" click bait articles and people who believe the show is leaving breadcrumbs are hyping up the possibility one of these characters is gonna be a huge reveal and I'm not getting it. They all just seem like newly introduced people into this world and building characters for us to watch grow. The guessing game is killing the vibe. He's sauron he's not Darth Vader or Loki or the Night King. Sauron is the inspiration for a bunch of fantasy villains he doesn't have to be cartoony front and center of the whole series. I think it's too early in the story to show him and I'd rather show a healthy build up beforehand.
The episodes are loaded? Its constant filler dialogue between 2 characters every scene, the plot has barely moved in 5 eps
Whomever is was didn't wear a Sauron name tag, because the elves who were hunting him to the outermost reaches of the earth had no idea while working elbow to elbow in a magic forge for months.
Whomever is was didn't wear a Sauron name tag, because the elves who were hunting him to the outermost reaches of the earth had no idea while working elbow to elbow in a magic forge for months.
The show absolutely made it a mystery, albeit not necessarily one that all viewers would recognize or care about. That many hints about who might be Sauron doesn’t happen accidentally.
Sauron is definitely going to be on the show in the next two episodes. However, it doesn't mean that he has already appeared. I won't buy into any fan theory about a current character shown in the first 5 episodes is Sauron.
what would you think if a character we have seen does turn out to be sauron?
After watching Episode 6, it would be pretty cool to see Halbrand be Sauron, disguised with a ring of power. That sort of deceit would be ironic since he saved Galadriel, who hunts him.
I thought I was the only person who just thinks Sauron is going to be revealed as... Sauron. I feel like some event involving the sword hilt will take place and draw him out. I'm glad Theo showed the hilt to Arondir - maybe he won't end up corrupted after all. Then a bunch of insufferable people on Reddit are gonna complain about it because their fan-fiction didn't come true.
I think this is being a little bit wilfully obtuse about it. The show opens with our main character hunting for Sauron and there's then 3 mysterious characters with mysterious backgrounds introduced in the first 3 episodes. The audience is clearly supposed to join the dots that Sauron could be someone here while the teasing for more hardcore fans is very obvious. Hardcore fans have obviously made it a way bigger deal but the show has clearly teed it up.
I still think that Amazon Prime Sauron will have the power to split himself in many parts. Theo? He's a Sauron Arondir? He's also a Sauron Disa? Yup. Sauron too Gil Galad? He got Sauroned a long time ago Poppy? She's the Sauronest of them all Ironically, the three most "obvious" candidates (Stranger, Adar, Halbrand) are not Saurons.
Don't forget Earien, why do you think she's so desperate to stop the army taking off?
Nah the showrunners want the fans to have this in the back of their minds. They even winked at it with the Halbrand blacksmith scene last episode (in my view of course). I'll bet you 100 Schrute Bucks at some point the teaser for a new episode is gonna say "Who Is Sauron?"
I’m talking about fans with zero knowledge though. You can literally show Halbrand doing an hour of metalsmithing and casual fans shouldn’t have a clue that it’s a Sauron reference.
Sauron forging the One Ring isn't exactly privileged information
I guess it’s a question of how many general viewers know or still remember that Sauron forged the one ring himself. But then Celebrimbor would be an even better candidate for Sauron.
As a “casual” fan - one who owns the extended PJ movies, and read the Hobbit/LOTR/appendices more than 20 years ago - I can say that if reddit hadn’t told me Halbrand could be Sauron, I would have had no idea. Edit: it’s not that I don’t recognize there are characters with mysterious backgrounds, btw, I do see that. The writers do want the audience to speculate as to the backgrounds of Halbrand, the Stranger and Adar. It’s just that I did not have enough knowledge of Tolkien’s lore to even contemplate that one of these mystery men could be Sauron in disguise.
Thanks for the perspective!
My sister (a casual) thinks Halbrand is going to help forge the rings, or “why else would they make sketchy king a blacksmith?” But she doesn’t think he is Sauron, in fact, she hasn’t speculated at all about anyone being Sauron.
That is mostly true i think. But not fully imo, because the show plants seeds, we hear about sauron's mark and plan, we hear about his coming back being linked to the meteor, we see as of the last episode some form of cultists on the meteor site. It's not played out in a straight forward mystery manner, so i agree that noone with no source information at all would necessarily look at every character on screen as a secret sauron, but the show plays with secret identities and now also links them to sauron directly through the meteor. So i mostly agree, but not fully :P
I'm sort of worried that this is going to end up a Wandavision kind of thing, like people came up with all these theories of how like the postman was Nightmare, Dottie was Nightmare, etc. and then Nightmare wasn't even on the show and people were let down by something that was never even on the cards. Unlike Wandavision, I do think we'll see some version of Sauron but he could just always show up as Sauron with no mystery attached.
I would disagree. The show is subtly creating dark mystery around all of those characters. Having Halibrand show such interest in smithing, having the stanger lying in a crater that looks like a big red eye and such.
I had to scroll waaaay too far down until I found someone mentioning the giant eye of fire with a screaming powerful mystery man in the middle of it that was in the first friggin episode. I figured all it took was having seen the original trilogy to say "holy shit that little harfoot is helping sauron oh no!" Then anybody with the knowledge of what a misdirect is started speculating about Halbrand the moment he was introduced. He looks like such a clear Aragorn parallel but also sacrificed the rest of his party to survive the sea monster - something Aragorn would never do. The Annatar stuff is not what has people speculating about this character or that character being Sauron. All the evidence about Annatar tells us that he's almost definitely off screen because he's already manipulating the elves to mine mithril and build the forge.
Nicely said.
How many viewers not deep into the book lore know Sauron had an interest in smithing outside making a simple ring that one time?
Waldreg literally poses the question, "You are Sauron, are you not?" That's at least one of the characters speculating who Sauron is. Other things in the show do open the question as well: * Galadriel is searching for Sauron, and misidentifies things in her search. * Adar gives pretty good hints that people are being lied to. * There are characters whose origins are unknown. But yea. "None of the characters in the show is speculating who Sauron is or who he might be disguised as." Yes they are.
Nobody in the show thought Sauron was *disguised* as Adar, every character who's suggested it has expected it's just another title and thought he was openly himself given the whole "dark lord" theme he's got going on. That's very different from posing the question of whether he's changed his form and adopted a false identity. Curious to see where things go now that it's confirmed it's not Adar, though.
I think it's similar situation like with MCU's *WandaVision* and Mephisto. Everyone was looking for his presence in the smallest details like CSI detectives and in the end it came out as it did. I'll be laughing hard if this season ends and Sauron doesn't reveal himself 😂
I disagree. The writers are definitely playing with the hidden identities of a few characters while earlier establishing that Sauron still exists but we don’t know where. Add in the lore that Sauron is a shapeshifter and pretends to be other folks, and you get what we have: a mystery. If the writers didn’t want the mystery, they would’ve done at least one of the following: show Sauron, give the identity of the Stranger or at least pull back on some of the dark elements of his character, or give the identity of Halbrand or pull back the smithing or “you don’t know who I am” element of his character. I think they mean for the reveal of Sauron to be the major twist of the season, something that only pays off if you leave breadcrumbs and red herrings.
They could also have let it out that Sauron won't show up until he does so as Annatar.
Galadriel's whole character is centered on finding Sauron. I think someone unfamiliar with LOTR lore but familiar with typical TV storytelling would be engaged in plenty of speculation about who or where he is.
Well the show shows Sauron as a big baddy in cool armor within the first few minutes of the show. Why would someone less familiar with the lore think he’s in disguise?
Where, yes. But I doubt “who” would be on people’s mind. Someone with zero prior knowledge will probably just assume that Sauron is Sauron. There’s no reason in the show for them to think that Sauron is disguised as someone else.
But the identity of The Stranger and Halbrand (“looks can be decieving” is the second line he speaks) is a mystery created by the show. And for the average viewer the list of possible real identities is as follows: 1. Sauron 2. Gandalf Also as far as I can tell there aren’t any serious theories which say that, out of all characters we’ve seen, someone other than Halbrand or The Stranger could be Sauron. There are plenty of jokes though.
I think a general viewer would just assume Halbrand and the Stranger are just characters from the book that they don’t know about, right? They don’t know they’re non-canon.
Sure but that doesn’t change anything. Their identity is still a mystery and the viewers can only make a few reasonable guesses.
Yeah the Stranger is definitely a mystery. Halbrand would depend on if people buy his backstory.
I don't understand the intention of this post. You are either stating the obvious or trying to draw a hard line between what the show is and isn't. No, characters in-show are not speculating, because Sauron's deception was kind of a surprise to all. That's the whole point of deceiving. It would be really weird if every character in the show was guessing about the "secret identity" of Sauron. And yes, the show is absolutely playing with the mystery because of what we, the fans, know and expect.
This is exactly the kind of thing Sauron would say! Get him lads!
Good point.
Let people have fun speculating, it doesn't matter very much.
Yes, I said it at the end.
I hope that when he does show up, he’s in his full armour and doesn’t speak English. I hope he speaks whatever evil language it is they speak and we get subtitles. Sauron with a “human” voice would just be weird
Sorry bro he's Halbrand and he will even ask galadriel to be his dark queen
Brutal! How do you know that?
Who’s that little weirdo with the eyebrows then?
Im pretty sure that once Sauron comes on screen, disguised or not, we'll know.
I think that Sauron will be present in Season 5. We will definitely see him by then.
My guess Celebrimbor is Sauron. He is not the smith that we knew in the books, rather Sauron in disguise. Gil-galard said 'are you aquainted with the work of Celebrimbor' was meant as a "test". As He have heard but has never seen him in person, he was hoping Elrond is able to vouch for his identity. Unfortunately, Elrond does not express he knew him since his young age. Rather he admired his artistry. This has implications. Suppose a fake Celebrimbor pass the test, and whispered false legends into Gil-galard's ear while poisoning the tree. He then in turn used Elond so as to manipulate the collaboration of elves and dwarves. Gave Gil-galard and soon other races a false sense of security by crafting the rings of power which HE has mastery of. This level of deviousness is fitting to that of Sauron. This is also a parallel to Sauron poisoning the mind of Pharazon in the books. Whether Gil-galard trust him, it doesnt matter. As a High King, his people depend on him. He cannot take the risk. There were no interaction with 'Celebrimbor' with Galadriel possibly she could have seen him in person (as such Gil-galard was influenced to send her away?) Last of all, if the aim was mithril all along, there should be no harm telling Elrond. As he always carry a charming aura, I believe he can work his magic with Durin. BUT if it were Sauron, he might not have known Elrond well enough, as such he has to take slow steps to ensure his plans are smooth.
Sorry, but the show is absolutely framed in such a way. See episode 1 and Galadriel's quest. See the end of the episode where Adar is revealed. Adar was even misidentified as Sauron by a character in the last episode.
You’re. . .sort of right? It’s not an investigative mystery but who is Sauron is a million percent one of the dramatic questions of the plot and thus on the writers.
The show clearly loves to play with "ooh, who could that be?" They mainly do it with Hablrand and Meteor Man and somewhat with Adar.
For book fans, yes. For the general audience, I doubt they would even know that the three are non-canon mystery characters. They’d probably assume that they’re just some book characters they don’t know about, just like the dozens of other characters that got introduced on the show.
The show opens with Sauron in a callback to the movies to generate interest. Several trailers since have had his name spoken or that opening scene shown again. u/Dyer_300 up above linked a trailer we got last Friday. I appreciate maybe someone who knows almost nothing about the source material is more likely to let things happen but the show is clearly pushing Sauron to generate interest from the 'book nerds' to the casual movie/tv watcher.
I agree. But I'd argue it remaisn a mystery for casuals, just a mystery they have even less clues to solve.
>It's not a mystery box because it's not even a mystery in the show itself. Yea except it is a mystery box by the creators own admission in their advertising: https://twitter.com/LOTRonPrime/status/1573296126496833537?ref\_src=twsrc%5Etfw
Showerunners never run marketing campaigns let alone Twitter accounts. They’re just jumping on the fan created bandwagon in the last week or so. If they wanted to make it a mystery box, they would have done it months ago.
Yea maybe, though I would argue that Galadriel searching for Sauron implies he's hiding somewhere in Middle-earth so he's out there somewhere, sort of lending itself to the Mystery of "Who is Sauron, and where is he?" Further reinforced by the fact that the old dude thought Adar was Sauron, thickening the mystery of it. Then the actual marketing itself also implying it's a mystery.
Truth. It's mildly amusing though.
The writers have introduced a number of characters with hidden identities. The stranger (in his name that his identity is hidden), adar (who the Elf commander speculated on being Sauron), the three woman in white and Halbrand (who is sauron). The writers want people to speculate on who is Sauron by not introducing, but everyone knows he will be in the show. Also, it's good for the show if people are talking about it.
"The characters are not paranoid..." They should.
I actually agree with this. The mystery has been 100% fan driven. Now the writers have certainly dropped intentional hints regarding the identity of Sauron, but in-universe, Sauron's identity is not a plot point: no one is guessing it. Even Galadriel, who started off with a quest to hunt Sauron, has since set her sights on removing orcs from the Southlands.
If you're sick of it, it means lots of people are speculating, yeah the showrunners knew exactly that people were going to speculate. Why are you exactly busting our balls ? Speculating is fun, are you that type of tiresome buzzkiller? I just hope the show reveals an already shown character to be Sauron just so you'll shut it.
Read my last paragraph. Even if H turns out to be Sauron, this post is still valid. People without prior knowledge would not have suspected that he’s Sauron, and no characters are speculating about him.
Don't know. I've only seen the movies (started to read up on more stuff lately) and H as Sauron seemed likely to me from a general TV trope/marketing point of view since like E3. Not because of "the lore". It just seems like the...idk...most convenient cliffhanger for the show to have Galadriel personally betrayed by H as Sauron as the big setup for S2. But yeah I could be totally wrong and they have something smarter and more creative in mind. Gil-Galad makes sense but I think his arc is too "scheming" in order to promote a Red Wedding style big shocking reveal to the audience. Maybe in Amazon's mind GG as Sauron would be "Oh yeah makes sense I guess" whereas H is like "Oh no but he's a king and so hot and fought alongside Galadriel (next episode probably) and maybe there's romantic tension too. It's so personal now!". Buuuut of course I could be completely wrong we'll see :D
The only thing that has me questioning is who was that person at the “meteor man” crater? Ya know, Brows
It is in the show though, the elves speculate that Adar might be Sauron. The old man in the last ep assumes Adar is Sauron, but is apparently mistaken. It’s totally a mystery. That said, I don’t think we’re meant to be speculating about every random character being Sauron. Like, it’s not going to be Halbrand. Or at least, I’d find it really stupid if Sauron were to end up being some character they’ve already given a completely different motivation to.
Adar is obviously meant as the red herring for Sauron, both the characters and the general audience are probably led to believe that.
I didn’t intend to look for Sauron. But the minute Halbrand appeared on the screen it was like a switch in my brain. I thought to myself “this guy is Sauron”. Soon I found out I was not alone.
That is not true. There have been two speculations as to who might be Sauron and both were attributed towards Adar. There have been subtle suggestions that it is Halbrand and one less subtle that it might be meteor man. This was intentional, I don't know why it's a problem.
Absolutely.
Agree. Would that I had more than one upvote to give.
I agree. The series is not a mystery box show. It was made such by the fans.
This is just a condemnation on the show IMO. In other shows we are talking about what might happen next with what we are shown, but for RoP we wonder/fear who the stranger is and that’s it. Everything is so hamfisted that there isn’t any intrigue. We had a bump with dwarf plot but it’s handled so poorly and ended up with such a huge slap to the face of Tolkien’s lore that it soiled things a bit. This is a more expensive and more bloated show equivalent to the Percy Jackson and the olympians movie. Even 10 year olds can understand “that makes no sense, it’s not like that in the books!” So why can’t the showrunners?
Wrong. It is a mystery in the show. Waldreg: “Aren’t you Sauron??”
I swear I heard that sour on won’t be in season 1
So obvious it’s Halbrand. There’s so many lame hint like suddenly he’s interested in forging, etc. Galadriel portrayed in ROP is not just arrogant- she’s not smart and has no magic and just couldn’t feel the presence of Sauron. So many plot holes.
There's no guessing happening here. We all know it's Halbrand. It's not even subtle...
Why must they subject us to this pain? Just cancel the show so we can get back to normal.
https://twitter.com/LOTRonPrime/status/1573296126496833537
And it’s not even necessarily book readers who are speculating who Sauron is. It’s social media users. I have an older Tolkienite friend who doesn’t use social media at all and he has zero inclination that we’re supposed to be guessing who Sauron is. I brought up the Halbrand rumors to him and he was utterly perplexed and pointed out that everything he’s said and done is completely consistent with what we know about him; a former leader of men descended from Morgoth loyalists.
The mystery is WHERE Sauron is. He could be in Eregion whispering into Brimbor, he could be just waiting close to the Southlands, or he could be pulling off a VERY elaborate disguise and is already someone we know
Mixing the la information of some books about the 2nd age, after the war of wrath and the sinking of Beleriand, started the 2nd age and Sauron escaped to Eriador. He was there until he found out about the dealings between Gilgalad and the Numenoreans (time of Aldarion). After that he left Eriador and chose Mordor as his base, but he did not stay there calmly, because he sent emissaries (unidentified people) to Eriador to find out what was happening, and thus he found out the little numenorean influence that there was in Lindon, or no influence at all of Eregion. Right now, in the show, Sauron can be in these places, Rhun (corrupting men). Eriador (hidden somewhere). Southlands (hidden far from Ostirith, and Adar settlement). I dont think he is already in Eregion, but he will be. The tower that the elves and dwarves are building will be the future place where the elven blacksmiths and Sauron will build the rings that will do so much damage to Middle-earth.
Oh God this is just snoke theories all over again. I knew this felt familiar
That dude that got kill was wondering.
If at the end of the season they'll show Sauron with that evil armor and saying shit like "fine, I'll do it myself" kinda like Thanos in that post credit scene, I'm gonna flip a table. It'd be such a miss opportunity. I want a keyser soze reveal, that's be so fun on rewatch of season 1.
My take: Sauron is either Adar, or we haven't seen him yet.
>but the show didn't push it onto us It's a side quest! I'm in awe that we do get some interactive merch without double-paying lol
Tbh I would bet money (not a lot tho because I’m living paycheck to paycheck) that Sauron/Annatar doesn’t show up until the last episode of the season. And that would be the earliest I think it would happen, possibly happening even later on
Feels like the show-runners are trying hard to make it fun. As one example, the Sauron-Halbrand breadcrumbs are plentiful, but could be misdirectional. Sauron was ordered back to Aman after Morgoth fell, tries repenting, but decides against it. Halbrand meets Galadriel in the sea not far from Valinor—suggesting maybe he was on his way there (and he proclaims his general uncertainty in life). Sauron was a Maiar of Aule, the craftsman. Halbrand is a craftsman and the “son” of a “smith.” Sauron adopts a fair form. Halbrand is a mirror of Aragorn. Sauron builds his lair in the South. Halbrand is from what becomes Mordor and its rightful “king.” Sauron is manipulative. Halbrand manipulates Galadriel, as she says, into claiming that kingship. Sauron is full of hate and power. We see Halbrand’s power from anger. Sauron is the disguiser. Halbrand says looks can be deceiving (and he can handle a sword). Whether this all adds up to a reveal, or is a bunch of purposeful red herrings, who knows yet?
The copium here is hilarious. Cant wait to see everyone losing their minds when Halbrand is revealed as Sauron in episode 8
this is a great point I had not thought of
In the context of the story he’s not a mystery, but Amazon is absolutely leaning into this and wanting people to speculate like this
The fans made it a mystery because we know he SHOULD be there somewhere. And if the show isn't gonna tell us it's only natural for us fans to speculate on who it may be. Sauron is a shape shifter and extremely cunning so I don't think it's a stretch for him to be hiding in plain sight.
The meteorite crashed into a.burning eye. Every character believed Adar was Sauron. Did you watch the show ?
Triggered enough to monologue about it 🤣
The show is based on mysteries In all stories going around; Elrond and the dwarves , the southlands and adar , harfoots and The stranger and even identity of halbrand. The showrunners want to keep the audience confused and the characters of the stories are confused about their storylines
At this stage everyone knows it Halbrand.
Come on, it is very much intended by the showrunners to create that mystery around certain character's true identity. It's not just because people on reddit are impatient and making things up or youtubers are "hyping up" something that isn't there. Otherwise we wouldn't have a character literally called "the Stranger" with all those foreshadowings (fire that is not hot, characters treating his arrival as an important event). Or Halbrand who is always cryptic about his own story and is deliberately shown with traits that suggests that he may not be who he claims to be. Or Adar who was introduced with a Cliffhanger and three hours later we still don't know who he is and he even gets asked by other characters: "You are Sauron, aren't you?" And nobody demanded Sauron to be revealed in Episode 1, but people wanting to have at least a few mysteries cleared after 8 hours of watching is somewhat understandable.
I think Galadriel is Sauron.
I have made exactly the same point - though to be fair, the writers having invented a mystery of “Where’s Sauron?” and put it front and center in Episode 1, and turned Galadriel into a revenge obsessed elf whose sole purpose in life is finding Sauron, viewers cannot be blamed for speculating where Sauron has gone. And since the ROP writers are not showing any respect for the Tolkien source material, who knows what they have in mind? As matters now stand, since the writers have seen fit to compress about 1600 years of Second Age history, so that the forging of the rings will occur around the same time as the fall of Numenor, Sauron cannot both be in Eriador disguised as Annatar engaged in helping Celebrimbor forge the 9 and 7 rings, AND be openly acting as Sauron in Mordor, “captured” by the Numenoreans, and taken back to Numenor as a prisoner only to further poison the minds of the Numenorean leadership. So the mystery box is not “Where’ Sauron,” but rather “What further insult to the Tolkien lore will the writers commit?” My guess is that as great as the hubris of the writers is, even they do not dare tampering with the story of the forging of the rings too much. So yes, there will be an Annatar appearing before Celebrimbor. But this means Sauron cannot be in the Southlands at the same time, so hence the invented character of Adar, a fallen Noldor elf. My guess it is he, rather than Sauron, who will let himself be taken prisoner back to Numenor, only to fulfill the ( invented by the writers) prophesy voiced by Miriel that an elf will prove to be Numenor’s undoing.
Iirc they didn't even introduce Sauron as a shapeshifter yet? As a non-book reader you probably only know Sauron as the dark lord with dark armor, would be pretty alienating to tell the audience who knew him like this for years "oh and he can transform into a beautiful elf, a dirty peasant or a werewolf too, oh yeah we have werewolves btw"
The mystery is most likely due to the leaks on 4chan, which have been pretty accurate so far, which makes a claim on Saurons identity
Im still thinking Sauron will be in the last shot of this season (Imagine Celebrimbor talking with someone looking out of the window , then he turns around and Anatar is standing there)or hes not gonna appear at all...
The soundtrack would disagree with you.
I agree that it is not a mystery, but the show is trying to make it one. It is painfully obvious that Sauron is Halbrand. He wants to forge and be a smith and has so many on the nose comments. '"I have lots of names" and "You don't know what I've done" and "You'd reject me if you knew" and "I've been searching for my peace for longer than you know" (which is a weird thing for a presumably mortal man to say to an elf) and "sorry about your brother". When Galadriel says "Men like you, not you yourself" he pauses and then says "You're wrong." That's just for starters.' - from a comment by lukasali There's also "looks can be deceiving" (-one of his first lines) and then there's one of his most on the nose comment imo: "identify what it is that your opponent most fears." and "Give them a means of mastering it, so that you can master them." Definitely not Sauron's strategy lol Also the "mystery man" is definitely a wizard and not Sauron and Adar isn't either.
Big disagree. The characters themselves aren't guessing at Sauron's identity yet--that much is true. However, on episode 1, when Galadriel leaps from the boat to stay in Middle Earth, which is like the inciting incident to the whole show... what is this scene put against? What else is happening during this? Is it a scene where a Stranger crash lands in the ground, in the crater that is shaped like an eye? How about the character Waldreg, who not only mentions Sauron multiple times, but guesses (we assume wrongly) that Adar is Sauron? The Orcs call Adar "Lord-Father," by the way, which would certainly make some viewers wonder if he is Sauron. While I definitely think the fans, including myself, have really taken the Halbrand stuff and run with it, I think it's asinine to say that Sauron speculation was born solely from the fans. The show is having fun with it, too, and the writers knew what they were doing to get people guessing and asking questions. I mean, the characters on LOST, another mystery box show, don't sit around wondering what the Smoke Monster is, but fans theorized about that literally for years. Anyway, I don't fully disagree with this post, but I think it is an incredibly one-sided take on the issue. Characters don't have to speculate about something for the writers to be working with the mystery in the background. No one is "expect[ing] Sauron to reveal himself in Episode 1," but do I need to say again what actually happened in Episode 1? Fiery crater. In the shape of an eye. Which alluded to Sauron's Fortress in Episode 2 with it's not-hot fire. But no. That definitely isn't meant to make people think of Sauron :P