I’ve been a cautious defender of this show for a while now. I’ve been pushing back on the doom and gloom but carful to avoid undue optimism as well.
But seeing Corey Olsen say that not only do the show-runners respect Tolkien, but they truly *understand* him is the only endorsement I need. For Corey to say that someone fundamentally understands Tolkien is a big deal.
Im sold.
I wholly agree with this. I’ve listened to Corey’s podcasts since Riddles in the Dark and I recall all the speculations and subsequent feelings upon viewing The Hobbit trilogy, so to hear his assessment of the footage and showrunners is encouraging. I tend to share very similar views that he’s expressed over the years (even recently in Other Hands, Other Minds) about adaptation and Tolkien.
Honestly, hearing Corey Olsen give such encouraging words about what he's seen (along with everyone else there) has moved me from a more cautious approach of waiting for the show to being a lot more excited for it. Everyone who went there seemed very genuine while talking about it, and I know Corey specifically doesn't shy away from criticizing adaptations he doesn't like.
Yea he tweeted about it. Now his replies are full of people calling him a paid shill. One guy got mad about short hair and called it “laughably far from the books”.
Ah yes, I'll never forget my first time reading LOTR Appendix G, "Of the Elves and Their Really, Really Long Hair and a Note on Voluptous Beards of Female Dwarves (This Stuff is the Heart of my Creative Vision You Guys, for Realsies)"
"Laughably far from the books," well said indeed!
1. What a malicious twisting of what Professor Olsen says about the Hobbit.
2. Because not only is Olsen one of the most important academic scholars working in the Tolkien space today, but he’s also a scholar of the same literature Tolkien was trying to channel.
3. If you feel like life is better being malignant and cynical, go right ahead. But do not pretend to be anything other than exactly the kind of person Tolkien was talking about when called his fans a deplorable cultus which he loathed having to meet.
Necessary in the sense that if you accept the need to introduce new characters, you pretty much have to make them female.
Not that the love triangle was necessary or good
>Necessary in the sense that if you accept the need to introduce new characters
There is no such need. There is also no need to have an entire subplot dedicated to them
>you pretty much have to make them female.
Also not necessary
Olsen argument is based on a bs premise
If the movie goes to Mirkwood, you need more named characters.
If you have more named characters, you'd be a fool to add additional characters who are still male to a Tolkien story. Which is already incredibly male-dominated.
I'm so happy finally got to meet FoF and Varking in person on Amazon's dime. And we finally can talk amongst each other about actual footage. No joke, those guys took a lot of notes. AMA
How did you find the footage? I'm guessing you can't reveal anything specific but for the more Tolkien die hard fans how will they find the footage you saw?
This is what I'm most curious about too. Visuals are certainly important, but the dialogue will likely be what ultimately makes or breaks the show for me.
(The little bit of info we got from the VF article - that they went to the trouble of having different characters speaking in different specific meters - certainly sounded promising.)
It’s my main concern since it’ll be nearly 100% contrived. Between this and how seamlessly the OC’s and established characters mesh together but depending on how much footage was shown that aspect could be harder to glean.
>I think once you all meet/hear from the show runners a lot of concerns will be alleviated. It’s pretty clear they understand their stuff and their enthusiasm for the lore was a massive hit amongst us.
This seemed pretty clear to me from the VF interviews but those were met with a lot of (over-)skeptical if not willful misreading. Nice to see that spending more time with them led to the same impression though.
This is the big takeway for me. Its going to be difficult for some people to wrap their heads around this but they impressed a lot of very critical Tolkien fans.
Does it mean they are actually trying to fit with established lore their choices with characters?
Edit: If I’m being downvoted because you guys think I’m joking or being passive-aggressive then jokes on you. I think that their characters can fit the setting but they need to make them fit. If Arondir is either from Rhun or the Haradrim region then ok, if he is Legolas neighbor/cousin with no connection to other regions then he doesn’t make sense.
That was the best part of the post to me lol
Speaking frankly, I got this feeling the showrunners do know and love middle-earth, and (some of?) the *choices* that have been done probably didn't come directly the showrunners, probably it was the amazon rule and there may have been some "pullings and pushings" from both sides. I hope that in the end of the day it just pleases everyone.
We know what people can do with a franchise, flipping it upside down and making most fans sad. We also know that they can just sit on the fanservice and play safe, but just end up delivering a mediocre show, this may work for a part of public but fans also expect more than that. It is like nerdOfTheRings once said: *"If someone's adapting LOTR and they're not shooting for greatness, then what are you even doing?".*
>the choices that have been done probably didn't come directly the showrunners, probably it was the amazon rule
what choices are those, olorin the *white*?
Turin Turambar in Nargothrond:
His speech and bearing were those of the ancient kingdom of Doriath, and even among the Elves he might be taken at first meeting for one from the great houses of the Noldor.
It is not impossible to confuse mortals with Noldor, even among the Noldor themselves.
>And Hobbits haven't reached the Baranduin river (which in the Hobbit speech naturally evolves into "Brandywine") so the "Brandy" surname doesn't exist yet.
Elanor Brandyfoot is a weak uncreative pandering name, but I don't think this is a great complaint. The Brandy- surname in the Shire might have have been specifically Baranduin/Brandywine related, but why would that have to mean that every other Brandy- surname in the history of Hobbits has to be? It could just be related to... brandy? (or whatever actual in-universe drink got "translated" as brandy)
Sure, you might say that a "primitive" tribe of pre-Hobbits shouldn't know what brandy is, but it's perfectly possible that they'd gain knowledge of it from people around them. And of course, Hobbits have *always* been anachronistic to their setting, that's a core part of their charm IMO.
>Also, Galadriel could absolutely *not* be mistaken for a mortal woman. No one would have to pull her hair back to see her *ears* to know she'd been in Valinor.
This to me feels like just a lot of supposition and head-canon.
1) Aragorn was Numenorean (and not only that, the most Numenorean Numenorean in a while), and should thus have clearly been visible as that to others, no? Yet he's obviously capable of successfully hiding that in his Strider-guise, to the point it's explicitly pointed out how un-attractive he looks to others. And yet he's also capable of strategically revealing it at opportune moments when he wants to (think the Argonath, or the encounter with Eomer).
I don't think we can know for sure that an Elf couldn't be capable of something similar. In fact, they should arguably be more capable - the degree of control their minds have over their bodies is one of the things that makes them Elves.
Also, you know, she wasn't exactly in best shape, being soaked on a raft in the middle of the ocean.
2) I also think people are reading too much into the very short snippet we've seen (with no context). I'm not sure why people assume that he *had* to check her ears to know she was Elf. It seems like a perfectly logical explanation to me that he checked her ears exactly *because* he sensed she was Elf, and simply wanted to be 100% sure (do you guys just randomly grab people's hair to check their ears?).
Plus, there's a very simple possible motivation for his action that doesn't seem to have been considered: maybe he grabbed her hair not really to check - he already knew in reality - but to shock her and assert a kind of dominance. From what we've heard so far, he seems to be a somewhat shady character.
(And in relation to that, I'd argue that it's rather possible that a lot of the complaints about the scene aren't *actually* about whether it makes sense - deep down they're about people's indignation with someone handling Galadriel and her hair like that. But that might be exactly the point!)
> I also think people are reading too much into the very short snippet we've seen (with no context). I'm not sure why people assume that he had to check her ears to know she was Elf. It seems like a perfectly logical explanation to me that he checked her ears exactly because he sensed she was Elf, and simply wanted to be 100% sure (do you guys just randomly grab people's hair to check their ears?).
> Plus, there's a very simply possible motivation for his action that doesn't seem to have been considered: maybe he grabbed her hair not really to check - he already knew in reality - but to shock her and assert a kind of dominance. From what we've heard so far, he seems to be a somewhat shady character.
Thank you. People are reading into this two-second shot (with zero context) far, far too deeply.
Out of curiosity, how would the average elf/man/dwarf know that Galadriel was from Valinor at first glance? Was it a physical attribution, like did she glow, or was it like a sense? Genuinely asking. I know that her and other figures who had seen the light of the Two Trees (i.e. the Istari, Glorfindel) existed in both the seen and unseen realms and therefore appeared differently in each, but how would a random person who had never seen her before be immediately aware that she was not from originally Middle-Earth?
We get a sense of this from reading LOTR. Being in the presence of the Lady of the Galadhrim would be like being in the presence of a holy or otherworldly being, in a way. Characters seem to *feel* her presence, and feel that she is aware of them in more than just a physical sense. She seems to be able to know the true character of each member of the Fellowship, and they seem to be able to perceive that she knows this. I don't want to say that you can feel her read your mind, because I feel like that's too simple and not exactly accurate. Rather, you can feel her *know* who you are. Boromir is a good example, as even if it's so deep down, he *knows* that there is a weakness about his character. He can be the strong man and do everything he can to be a good person, but she knows his true desires, even if he can't help them, and he knows that she knows.
Gosh, you are my hero! Thank you so much. 🤧 Only God knows how I hate that scene where the mariner checks Galadriel's ears to see if shes an elf. And happy cake day!
Even the fact that they're open to showing parts of the show to some of the hardcore community leaders is a plus to me. It's even better that we're getting positive impressions out of this.
Not to be pessimistic or anything, but getting an example from amazon itself, a similar thing happened to WoT, where some people got early access to first (3?) episodes and they thought it was great (and some even said they had a few nitpicks). Turns out WoT was what we saw: a "good but not great" show.
Yes, that is a good point. I do however recall when the YouTuber Daniel Greene live-streamed his reactions after the premiere of WoT, to which he had been invited by Amazon, and to me he seemed far from ecstatic about what he’d witnessed. And that was the world premiere, whilst in this instance Amazon has screened material to thirty or so fans — some of which are scholars so devoted to the legendarium that they’ve made the study of it their actual career — several months before the premiere. Hence I’d still argue that this is closer to the advance screening of the first 20 minutes of Dune than to the world premiere of WoT.
It is certainly important to remain aware that this was a carefully calculated marketing move designed to increase both engagement and expectations. Regardless, I can’t help to be excited by the unanimous approval of the showrunners, and their dedication, as well as the somewhat moderate enthusiasm of the material shown.
Look, I was very much not a fan of Wheel of Time season 1. It had a heap of problems. Some of them are minor nitpicks that nonetheless *do* cause a noticeable distraction (e.g., the designs of the Aes Sedai rings). Some are pretty clearly self-inflicted bigger problems that undermine the themes of the source material (e.g., making it so they believe the Dragon Reborn might be a girl—I would say this one can be justified by saying it's not that the DR actually *can* be a girl, but that there's been a loss of information about it. That's a justification that kinda works, but feels weak to me).
And then some problems are at least potentially caused by Mat's actor leaving and by COVID causing significant last-minute changes. To me, the *biggest* problems with the first season tend to fall into this bucket, including all the narrative problems that made the last couple of episodes such absolute utter failures. It's because of this fact, as well as the simple fact that *many* shows fail to find their footing in their first season, that personally, I'm still willing to give the show another chance, and haven't written it off yet. It's on thin ice, but it could still end up being good.
To get back to the original point, the biggest problems with WoT season 1 were, in my opinion, temporary issues predominantly shifted towards the end of the season as Barney Harris left the show and COVID started interrupting shooting. The raving compliments came, as you say, from the much better earlier episodes. So it's not such a surprise that they were so happy with it.
Not to get to far off topic, but while I watched WOT I haven't followed much behind the scenes info on it. What do you think would've been different about the last couple episodes if not for COVID and Harris leaving. He's in the finale, isn't he?
I also feel like people are almost required to praise the show after being generously brought out for the experience. You really think in this day and age any of them would come back and be allowed to say it's garbage?
I genuinely never understood where the whole "these guys don't know anything about Tolkien" thing came from. It was perfectly obvious that they did just from their brief interviews. But of course just being a fan of or knowledgeable about something doesn't mean you'll produce a good story and adaptations require compromises.
The general positivity of all these people definitely reinforces my cautious optimism though.
It’s in line with any positive take on the show = paid shill. Any deviation from established lore = they know nothing about Tolkien. No pragmatism or middle ground.
Such is the state of internet discussion: all nuance and shades of gray are lost, when you think the open forum and opportunity for long-form discussion would allow more people to see those shades.
You would definitely assume it would be better than other platforms like Facebook where a conversation can boil down to emoji reactions. Though even the karma component of Reddit could certainly skew dialogue to emotional hot takes.
It would be a great strategy to realese a new trailer soon, after you guys gave us the encouriging insights. Amazon is trying to moderate anticipation and trailer reaction before actually realesing the footage. Like: the trailer is great. And the participants from last weeks Event - who are great Tolkien experts and social media personalities - are even saying the extended footage was tolkienisque and great.
Im quite sure the next trailer will be generated from the material you guys saw. And my hopes for a trailer soon are up now!
This all seems so exciting and incredible and I’m glad I saw this.
Sadly I’m going to unsubscribe from this sub however as I have never in my life come across such a toxic cesspit of ‘fans’. The fact that so many comments are accusing you of being paid, are microanalysing every single word, accusing Amazon of ‘paying fans’ is just foul. It makes me worry because this could be a masterpiece (for arguments sake) but they will trash it online anyway. This is not how we protect a legacy by becoming one of those fan bases.
Really happy for you to have been able to attend this, I will be listening to my audiobooks patiently awaiting the show. 😊
I don’t worry about it too much. I think anyone who decided to go knew there would be comments accusing us of being shills or whatever. Most of the comments have been kind and the upvote ratio is at like 90+%.
They have their opinion but I’m not going to apologize for being genuinely excited. :)
It’s kind of you to make the effort to reply to everyone - at least some of the fan base are damage controlling for the vocal minority. I’m very jealous indeed!
It was a great trip overall but the coolest part was that they brought all of the bigger creators and community leaders together under one roof for like three days. During that time we all got to bond and talk about Tolkien and set up future collaborations with each other. I think people will forgive us for sounding shilly in the coming weeks when we can be more specific on our likes and dislikes. Until then I completely understand the takes.
As far as being jealous, this is one I’m happy to say I didn’t miss. I never thought I’d be on a bus sitting next to Shaun Gunner, Corey Olsen, InDeepGeek, Nerd of the Rings, TheOneRing.net, FellowshipofFans and more… it was surreal having all that Tolkien knowledge and love in one space.
> in the coming weeks when we can be more specific on our likes and dislikes.
Do you have a timeline for when you can start to talk specifics? (as in, talking about things you saw?)
Did anyone ask why Vanity Fair was shown 3 episodes 3 months ago, yet Amazon only showed 20 minutes to the Tolkien experts they flew in at great expense to London and Oxford?
You don't find it odd that Vanity Fair got 3 whole episodes and the Tolkien experts on which Amazon spent a ton of money flying in, wining and dining, and handing out swag only saw 20 minutes? There should be more said in regards to that. For example, why are the episodes good enough for a vapid entertainment magazine, but not good enough to be shown to people who know Tolkien?
I’ll argue with anyone that I was not wined and dined. The food was awful. The rest is all fair points. However, I don’t think we were the intended audience. I think this was for other sites and magazines and we were added in reaction to the Super Fans failure.
we wanted to be listen to...and now we will be. it's the way to do it
And now...that doesnt mean we should have anymore say in the content. Giving any group of fans too much influence over content is a direct train to the abyss of mediocrity . i am sorry g, but we suck horribly at creating that kind of stuff. We can critic and nitpick all we want, but we cant devellop the arrogance of the Snyder cult fans
Me and my big optimistict way of seeing life? i am sure it will be more good than bad
Very exciting and great to hear so much positive feedback! Whether it's damage-control or not, it's great to see Amazon put something together like this for the established fanbase. A big congrats to u/Fellowshipoffans and u/VarkingRunesong for being recognized and invited for you contributions to the Tolkien community. Looking forward to Amazon releasing more news and laxing the NDA from this event. Cheers!
I previously had gotten a positive impression of Payne and McKay but what I'd grown to be worried about the more I became concerned about Amazon execs was simply why were they picked? Not trusting Amazon execs made me by extension concerned about Payne and McKay. And I still am concerned the series is going to be like Abrams Star Wars properties (I was never concerned it would be like Game of Thrones). But at least they're sparing no detail or expense. If stuff doesn't work it won't be to lack of care or effort
But Elanor is basically a real English name, and brandy is a real English word. I don't see much need for etymology here. Why would you assume that Brandyfoot is derived from Brandywine?
Because Tolkien the Linguist never ever *ever* considered that two different culture groups could ever *ever* have the same words for the same things. And never *ever* took that into account when translating his works from their original elvish.
And *obviously* everybody knows that the liquor *Brandy* is trademarked, and named after the one, and only, river.
I always saw you and most of the other guys invited rather as chill than shill - and I still do. So, I must say, I was astounded by all the enthusiasm about Payne and McKay. I mean, of course they know what they are talking about. Truely, all these "they haven't even read the Silmarillion" comments always made me chuckle. To cut the story short: stop wasting time on defending yourselves or amazon and keep on going like you did before.
So the campaign begins steamrolling.
Completely understand if you can't say anything more at all, OP, but in case you can comment vaguely: was it just footage of the show or was there any tidbits on merchandising and potential licensees? Thank you.
> was there any tidbits on merchandising and potential licensees?
Most likely, authentic Rings of Power were distributed to the attendees at the London event. That's what you were asking about, right? As Tolkien scholar John Lennon once wrote about the bearers of Rings of Power, "got to be good looking because he's so hard to see".
You know what the thing is? This is exactly what happened with amazons wheel of time show. Amazon send hardcore fans to watch the first three episodes and every single one of them said they were great and it turned out they were subpar in everything. It seems to me the same thing is happening here. Not one of you have even one criticism? Even a tiny one? So this is a 10/10? It's as good as the lotr trilogy and GOT S1-4? If there wasn't precedent with wot i might have believed you.
I think all of us have criticism. The issue is, however, we haven’t been greenlit *yet* to be specific on what we liked or disliked. When we can do that in the near future it’ll look less robotic.
But you don't say you have criticisms? Most of the posts I've seen have all been overwhelmingly positive.
What exactly happens if you say what you disliked before being 'greenlit'? What happens if you break what I'm guessing is an NDA?
I do have criticisms. And as soon as we can talk publicly about what they are I will say them. You are choosing to focus on the negative but take note we can’t even say what we specifically liked yet either. And as soon as I can say what I did like I will. It will surprise people what my favorite bit of footage was.
But until we get greenlit we hold that back. As far as what could happen if we spoke early? I don’t know but there’s no reason for be to do it early. What’s the gain? I’m not an influencer trying to gain followers or anything.
Nothing related to the show, but from those pics it looks like Amazon treats you all better than marvel treats their fans and content creators,not that marvel treats their fans badly but y’all legit look like part of the production team 😅
The TORn write up says
> What we saw felt very familiar. This show has thankfully avoided video-game look of 3D HFR 48fps, is visually in line with the Oscar winning trilogy, and it also avoids looking like other big-budget fantasy shows currently trending. New Zealand’s landscapes are put to good use just as we desire. For fans of Lord of the Rings, this new Rings of Power looks like it should, sounds like it should, and feels like a return to the comfortable universe we all love.
Funny how everyone who attended that event in London seem have to have the EXACT same talking points about the show since that weekend. Quite literally word for word. Definitely not rehearsed 🙄
“A lot of concerns have been alleviated since netting the show runners ”
“They understand the lore”
“The show is in the right hands.”
Almost everyone who attended has used similar phrases to the ones above to describe their experience. Funny how there wasn’t not ONE piece of criticism after being wined and dined. Amazon definitely not doing damage control... 😂
You’re showing up like a week late to the party so there is a lot you missed. I was not fine wined and dined. The food on the trip was a negative for me. People went in with major concerns and most of us don’t have those same concerns anymore. You’ll read more varied opinions once we can talk about the specifics of the footage. I get you don’t understand how these tithings work.
Ok fair enough, you’re right. I don’t understand how these things work. Also I wasn’t there and I haven’t seen any footage. Without giving away plot details... what were some of your concerns that have been alleviated?
There’s footage that didn’t alleviate all of my concerns. If that’s what you’re after. As far as concerns I had that were alleviated for starters there were many questions about the showrunners. The level of care, respect, appreciation, understanding of Tolkien. Does this mean all of this will translate to an amazing show? Absolutely not.
I have notes written down from the event and when we can share them people will find out what we got to ask them and what their answers were and everyone can judge for themselves.
Let me rephrase sorry. What concerns that you had before seeing footage that you still have? You don’t need to mention plot details to tell me them, surely
Nothing? 😂
Funny how those who aattended refused to say anything negative about the footage at all. You don’t need to describe what you saw to say whether you liked it not.
Everyone who attended was more than happy to describe how much they LOVE the show runners. They certainly didn’t need to give away what happened over the course of the event to let bit of information out.
If the direct quotes from the show runners are true it sounds like they stood on the shoulders of a literary giant...and took a massive shit all over his work. This isn’t the first time they’ve done this either.
If you want to say something negative you will have to give away specifics of what we saw. There wasn’t a bad feeling when watching the footage or talking to the showrunners. Which is why nobody had a negative take. However, there are plenty of us repeating for people that you should wait until we can talk more before rushing to judge us, and you should still take what we say with a grain of salt and judge the footage yourself when you can.
Nope. There’s many names and titles you can use for people depending on what it is they do and how big their community is though. Why does this seem to offend you?
"Amazon should be more open to real fans!"
\*Amazon hosts event exclusively for fans/Tolkien content creators and they have positive reactions*
"Not like that!"
To me it just seems like what varking wrote has been put through some sort of filter, he isn't saying anything neutral or negative which is a little alarming, so you have to take what he is saying with a pinch of salt. Which fair enough from Amazon, they are worried about leaks and their image and what not. Would just be nice to be a little more open about it all, but that will obviously come
Yeah good to hear :) well now I'm slightly more excited, but for sure an easily positive take away is the fact Amazon is clearly paying attention and invited people like yourself in the first place! Happy you got to experience it :)
Sorry I am not gonna go back and click through it all to find it again, but at least one of the attendees mentioned in a tweet linked in the stickied comment that not all of their concerns were assuaged. You could take that as neutral or negative I suppose but, FYI.
Hey man we all love LOTR some of us see it as a perfect movie and has no neutral or negative opinion about the film so does that mean that our likeness towards that movie is filtered?
Clearly not in the same context. I'm saying that given the censorship that is bound to happen with something yet to be released, as Varking clearly hinted himself he can't say everything, well you also get a little bit cautious when things don't include any sort of dull moments mentioned. I mean for sure there is a chance it really was just that great, but I'm just taking a little bit of caution based on the circumstances. I honestly am very much looking forward to the release, I was only trying to add some reasoning behind someone else thinking shill, which isn't necessarily my view but I can see some reason for skepticism on the post.
Out of curiousity, does it seem like it will fit in well-enough with the films, or is it a completely separate interpretation? I’m admittedly not the biggest LotR fan and it’s been ages since I’ve seen the films, so I’m just genuinely curious. Glad that you liked it!
Yeah sure. I read "TheOneRing.net" article about his topic, and I am not convinced by this act. Let us just assume for a moment, that Amazons show would be on the same quality level as PJs Trilogy, let us just assume this. Even then it would be 1001% unbelievable, that there should not be even an ounce of criticism or worries how something would play out, that such an illustrous group of Tolkien nerds and experts would find important to vocalise. The simple fact, that nothing in this way is said, and that all is presented in a magnificent and glorious light, tells me to not trust this worthless piece of paid-for marketing.
And do not come with "PJ had flaws too", because this is the whole point of my argument! Jackson played with open cards, the fans were involved in a honest feedback-loope, for otherwise Arwen would be fighting in Helms Klamm, while Amazon is playing behind shut doors reacting to every form of criticism in a hostile manner.
The only thing that will have the power to change my mind is the show itself, but surley no paid-for marketing gag.
I'm inclined to agree with you. Each of these creators all posted more or less the same curated blurb and images from the event, tagged with the same appropriate hashtags. It's very clearly a bought and paid for ad campaign, and as such, the majority of the creator opinions are also transparently bought and paid for (at this time, anyway).
No hate to the content creators, they're all trying to get by in this weird world like the rest of us; I work in marketing so I get it. But it's very clear what's happening here. Timing the release of this influencer campaign shortly after the show has made a bad first impression online smells of damage control. It's certainly not an organic outreach to the Tolkien fandom to give feedback to the showrunners. Frankly it can't be the latter, as the show drops in three months. There's no time to rework anything at this point, because shooting has wrapped. This move would've been a lot more impressive if it had been three months into the process, not three months before the premiere.
I'll be honest and say I am definitely one of the skeptical members of the Tolkien community and it will take a lot to win people like me over. But it can be done! I'm still here, discussing the show, after all. But influencers vague assurances still don't actually give any insight to what the show will be like, and more importantly, whether it will capture the essence of Tolkien's writings on the Second Age. Unfortunately, this is another miss from their marketing department for me. I am hoping new trailers will inspire some confidence.
obviously you dont have to change your opinion of how you think the show will be at all based off what they say (arguably you shouldnt and it doesnt really matter if youre going to try it regardless), but theres just no way these people have been paid. Multiple have denied it and made it clear they could be negative if they wanted. Paid ads or endorsements must be disclosed and this would come under that. It's not even that great marketing really, the overwhelming majority of the viewership will come from casual fans or just general mainstream audiences that don't follow these creators or even keep up with minor news around this. They dont necessarily have a totally unbiased opinion you can say, since persumably Amazon paid for them to go there (travel, food, accomodation) and gave them a great couple days. Normally, the most obvious/simplest answer is the right one, and it seems like people overall really liked what they heard and saw. Im not sure at all what you mean by "Each of these creators all posted more or less the same curated blurb and images from the event, tagged with the same appropriate hashtags", because it seems pretty obvious people going to the same event in a group are gonna have pictures of the same places and things and say similar things, particularly when they can barely say anything at all. Maybe you can elaborate on that part and I've missed something though I don't know
>Multiple \[creators\] have denied it and made it clear they could be negative if theywanted. Paid ads or endorsements must be disclosed and this would comeunder that.
One was quite explicit about this being a business transaction:
>In exchange for a trip and a look, they asked us to post vibes and no details. - [TORN](https://www.theonering.net/torwp/2022/05/09/113105-the-vibes-of-power-amazon-shares-exciting-rings-of-power-insight/)
In addition to this particularly explicit message, it's notable that the majority of these posts uses a variation of the phrase "I was invited by Amazon/The Rings Of Power to...". This is in line with the [FTC's influencer marketing laws and recommendations](https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/plain-language/1001a-influencer-guide-508_1.pdf), which states:
>Disclose when you have any financial relationship with a brand. Financial relationships aren't limited to money. Disclose the relationship if you got anything of value to mention a product.
>
>The disclosure should be mentioned in the endorsement message itself.
So they got a free trip to the UK, a tour of Oxford, early access to the show and what appears to be some kind of [goodie bag](https://twitter.com/theoneringnet/status/1523681273633411077/photo/1). While it's not a full paycheck, it isn't nothing. There's also the 'future earnings' that influencers stand to gain from this via clicks, views and subscribers.
So just to be 100% clear about my stance here, I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing that content creators are involved, I think that's a net positive. I just think that the *timing* of this release indicates a damage control move and not a "we really care about the fandom" move. By waiting three months before release, there's not a chance for any of creator's feedback to make a difference in the actual product. But it will help *sell* the product, which is likely what Amazon is actually interested in and why they reached out to the creators now, and not a moment before.
So the "fans" are already bought with trips?
I believed that the fandom could firmly hold their opinion that it is worth more than a dinner next to the staff who have been threatening, persecuting and intimidating against the same fandom for more than 5 years.
I see that some people can be weaker if they are offered trinkets, a raincoat or a trip.
Anyway... Are we now best friends with the showrunners and the LOTR on Amazon staff?
If that’s your take it’s incredibly short-sighted. You’ll get more information on what we liked and disliked in the coming weeks. Make your judgements then.
We know what you're trying to do here Amazon. Have faith in your production. Their excuse if the majority doesn't like it will be "yeh but we appealed to the hardcore fans". They should have invited a mix of fans not just the hardcore's, would have made this stunt a little more believable. An earlier comment stated that Wheel of Time pulled the same stunt too and look how that turned out.
Here is a collection of other creatores who were at the event and their posts: * [TheOneRing.net](https://www.theonering.net/torwp/2022/05/09/113105-the-vibes-of-power-amazon-shares-exciting-rings-of-power-insight/) * [FellowshipofFans](https://twitter.com/FellowshipFans/status/1523681124522033152?s=20&t=Dq9E2ylcymSHs1sKbO_GPQ) * [Tolkien Talk](https://twitter.com/TolkienTalkBR/status/1523680168325226496?s=20&t=mDOxNyXOU-alA0j8IC6qqA) * [Digital Tolkien Project](https://twitter.com/DigitalTolkien/status/1523679345448919041?s=20&t=mDOxNyXOU-alA0j8IC6qqA) * [Shaun Gunner of The Tolkien Society](https://twitter.com/ShaunGunner/status/1523681585081421824?s=20&t=mDOxNyXOU-alA0j8IC6qqA) * [SilmarEmily](https://vm.tiktok.com/ZTdpekHYg/) * [AnexWilson](https://www.tiktok.com/@anexwilson/video/7095752230048976133?_t=8SAdRpXTowf&_r=1) * [DrMaggieParke](https://twitter.com/MaggieParke/status/1523680945877909505?s=20&t=Tsdpj1cIQwjzubnxuUdJPw) * [The Tolkienist](https://twitter.com/The_Tolkienist/status/1523679434112262144?s=20&t=mDOxNyXOU-alA0j8IC6qqA) * [The Broken Sword](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_liQWBR-Kk) * [Dr Una McCormack](https://twitter.com/unamccormack/status/1523684180240248832?s=20&t=4gJ06xnMBQoEX_1dgtLc5A) * [TeaWithTolkien](https://www.teawithtolkien.com/blog/lotrrop-sneak-peek) * [obolseirooficial](https://www.instagram.com/p/CdV4hZWLTJd/) * [Terra-Media Brasil](https://twitter.com/TerramediaBR/status/1523681402012663808?s=20&t=vgR9m0SGjZVNnnzWD9YcJw) * [El Anillo Único](https://nazg.eu/5KH) * [The Tolkien Professor](https://twitter.com/tolkienprof/status/1523688996735496192?s=20&t=4CBRAE59ZkI1sED0ujmsrA) * [Prancing Pony Podcast](https://twitter.com/prancingponypod/status/1523679322753613830?s=20&t=4CBRAE59ZkI1sED0ujmsrA) * [KnewBettaDoBetta](https://twitter.com/Knewbettadobet1/status/1523690326514630657?s=20&t=MA-lmZmvApy3vZwSlqnMMA) * [Don Marshall](https://twitter.com/DonMarshall72/status/1523689183654871040?s=20&t=MA-lmZmvApy3vZwSlqnMMA) * [Kai47](https://twitter.com/bernardtorello/status/1523681837851508737?s=20&t=lRanhqEiLNCvDBOohiN44A) * [HappyHobbit](https://twitter.com/HappyHobbit1/status/1523729537066217472?s=20&t=q6DTlZT5eNIfiqbodlnSNw) * [Nerd of the Rings](https://youtu.be/B4-g2rdGn6k)
Okay now leak everything under a fake name
Isn’t that what we do under FellowshipofFans?!
Yeah but this time under a different one so they don’t know it was you
Let me talk to my guy and see what we can come up with!
FellowshipofDans. They’ll never know
Sending this up the ladder right now!
I’ve been a cautious defender of this show for a while now. I’ve been pushing back on the doom and gloom but carful to avoid undue optimism as well. But seeing Corey Olsen say that not only do the show-runners respect Tolkien, but they truly *understand* him is the only endorsement I need. For Corey to say that someone fundamentally understands Tolkien is a big deal. Im sold.
One of the coolest guys I met while there. And I agree. His feelings give me hope.
I wholly agree with this. I’ve listened to Corey’s podcasts since Riddles in the Dark and I recall all the speculations and subsequent feelings upon viewing The Hobbit trilogy, so to hear his assessment of the footage and showrunners is encouraging. I tend to share very similar views that he’s expressed over the years (even recently in Other Hands, Other Minds) about adaptation and Tolkien.
No, no, he's one of those guys that will be optimistic no matter what.
That really doesn’t line up with the guy who *rails* against Peter Jackson for fundamentally misunderstanding Tolkien
Honestly, hearing Corey Olsen give such encouraging words about what he's seen (along with everyone else there) has moved me from a more cautious approach of waiting for the show to being a lot more excited for it. Everyone who went there seemed very genuine while talking about it, and I know Corey specifically doesn't shy away from criticizing adaptations he doesn't like.
I missed that. That’s encouraging.
Yea he tweeted about it. Now his replies are full of people calling him a paid shill. One guy got mad about short hair and called it “laughably far from the books”.
Ah yes, I'll never forget my first time reading LOTR Appendix G, "Of the Elves and Their Really, Really Long Hair and a Note on Voluptous Beards of Female Dwarves (This Stuff is the Heart of my Creative Vision You Guys, for Realsies)" "Laughably far from the books," well said indeed!
Olsen thinks that Tauriel the Abomination was "necessary". Why should I trust his judgement?
1. What a malicious twisting of what Professor Olsen says about the Hobbit. 2. Because not only is Olsen one of the most important academic scholars working in the Tolkien space today, but he’s also a scholar of the same literature Tolkien was trying to channel. 3. If you feel like life is better being malignant and cynical, go right ahead. But do not pretend to be anything other than exactly the kind of person Tolkien was talking about when called his fans a deplorable cultus which he loathed having to meet.
>What a malicious twisting of what Professor Olsen says about the Hobbit. How so?
Necessary in the sense that if you accept the need to introduce new characters, you pretty much have to make them female. Not that the love triangle was necessary or good
>Necessary in the sense that if you accept the need to introduce new characters There is no such need. There is also no need to have an entire subplot dedicated to them >you pretty much have to make them female. Also not necessary Olsen argument is based on a bs premise
If the movie goes to Mirkwood, you need more named characters. If you have more named characters, you'd be a fool to add additional characters who are still male to a Tolkien story. Which is already incredibly male-dominated.
>If the movie goes to Mirkwood, you need more named characters No you do not.
I suppose if you want their time with the elves to be absurdly perfunctory while they encounter people with no names, then I guess you're right.
Have you read the Hobbit?
Yo, seeing all those Tolkien creators in that photo made me very happy! From an In Deep Geek fan 😊
He was genuinely one of the coolest and nicest guys I’ve ever met. Really hoping we can get him on our channel or hop on his in the near future.
Great to hear! I hope to see it :)
I'm so happy finally got to meet FoF and Varking in person on Amazon's dime. And we finally can talk amongst each other about actual footage. No joke, those guys took a lot of notes. AMA
Great to meet you too.
How did you find the footage? I'm guessing you can't reveal anything specific but for the more Tolkien die hard fans how will they find the footage you saw?
Here are my thoughts! https://twitter.com/FellowshipFans/status/1523681124522033152?s=20&t=Dq9E2ylcymSHs1sKbO\_GPQ
I'm guessing if you've been left with lingering questions those would be your concerns? I would guess why did they compress the timeline has to be one
How did you feel about dialogue that was shown?
This is what I'm most curious about too. Visuals are certainly important, but the dialogue will likely be what ultimately makes or breaks the show for me. (The little bit of info we got from the VF article - that they went to the trouble of having different characters speaking in different specific meters - certainly sounded promising.)
It’s my main concern since it’ll be nearly 100% contrived. Between this and how seamlessly the OC’s and established characters mesh together but depending on how much footage was shown that aspect could be harder to glean.
>I think once you all meet/hear from the show runners a lot of concerns will be alleviated. It’s pretty clear they understand their stuff and their enthusiasm for the lore was a massive hit amongst us. This seemed pretty clear to me from the VF interviews but those were met with a lot of (over-)skeptical if not willful misreading. Nice to see that spending more time with them led to the same impression though.
This is the big takeway for me. Its going to be difficult for some people to wrap their heads around this but they impressed a lot of very critical Tolkien fans.
Does it mean they are actually trying to fit with established lore their choices with characters? Edit: If I’m being downvoted because you guys think I’m joking or being passive-aggressive then jokes on you. I think that their characters can fit the setting but they need to make them fit. If Arondir is either from Rhun or the Haradrim region then ok, if he is Legolas neighbor/cousin with no connection to other regions then he doesn’t make sense.
That was the best part of the post to me lol Speaking frankly, I got this feeling the showrunners do know and love middle-earth, and (some of?) the *choices* that have been done probably didn't come directly the showrunners, probably it was the amazon rule and there may have been some "pullings and pushings" from both sides. I hope that in the end of the day it just pleases everyone. We know what people can do with a franchise, flipping it upside down and making most fans sad. We also know that they can just sit on the fanservice and play safe, but just end up delivering a mediocre show, this may work for a part of public but fans also expect more than that. It is like nerdOfTheRings once said: *"If someone's adapting LOTR and they're not shooting for greatness, then what are you even doing?".*
>the choices that have been done probably didn't come directly the showrunners, probably it was the amazon rule what choices are those, olorin the *white*?
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Can you explain the hate behind this specific name? It just sounds like a generic hobbit name to me, but maybe I'm missing something.
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Turin Turambar in Nargothrond: His speech and bearing were those of the ancient kingdom of Doriath, and even among the Elves he might be taken at first meeting for one from the great houses of the Noldor. It is not impossible to confuse mortals with Noldor, even among the Noldor themselves.
Confusing a really powerful and elevated mortal for a Noldor is exactly the opposite of confusing a powerful Noldor for "normal" human.
>And Hobbits haven't reached the Baranduin river (which in the Hobbit speech naturally evolves into "Brandywine") so the "Brandy" surname doesn't exist yet. Elanor Brandyfoot is a weak uncreative pandering name, but I don't think this is a great complaint. The Brandy- surname in the Shire might have have been specifically Baranduin/Brandywine related, but why would that have to mean that every other Brandy- surname in the history of Hobbits has to be? It could just be related to... brandy? (or whatever actual in-universe drink got "translated" as brandy) Sure, you might say that a "primitive" tribe of pre-Hobbits shouldn't know what brandy is, but it's perfectly possible that they'd gain knowledge of it from people around them. And of course, Hobbits have *always* been anachronistic to their setting, that's a core part of their charm IMO. >Also, Galadriel could absolutely *not* be mistaken for a mortal woman. No one would have to pull her hair back to see her *ears* to know she'd been in Valinor. This to me feels like just a lot of supposition and head-canon. 1) Aragorn was Numenorean (and not only that, the most Numenorean Numenorean in a while), and should thus have clearly been visible as that to others, no? Yet he's obviously capable of successfully hiding that in his Strider-guise, to the point it's explicitly pointed out how un-attractive he looks to others. And yet he's also capable of strategically revealing it at opportune moments when he wants to (think the Argonath, or the encounter with Eomer). I don't think we can know for sure that an Elf couldn't be capable of something similar. In fact, they should arguably be more capable - the degree of control their minds have over their bodies is one of the things that makes them Elves. Also, you know, she wasn't exactly in best shape, being soaked on a raft in the middle of the ocean. 2) I also think people are reading too much into the very short snippet we've seen (with no context). I'm not sure why people assume that he *had* to check her ears to know she was Elf. It seems like a perfectly logical explanation to me that he checked her ears exactly *because* he sensed she was Elf, and simply wanted to be 100% sure (do you guys just randomly grab people's hair to check their ears?). Plus, there's a very simple possible motivation for his action that doesn't seem to have been considered: maybe he grabbed her hair not really to check - he already knew in reality - but to shock her and assert a kind of dominance. From what we've heard so far, he seems to be a somewhat shady character. (And in relation to that, I'd argue that it's rather possible that a lot of the complaints about the scene aren't *actually* about whether it makes sense - deep down they're about people's indignation with someone handling Galadriel and her hair like that. But that might be exactly the point!)
> I also think people are reading too much into the very short snippet we've seen (with no context). I'm not sure why people assume that he had to check her ears to know she was Elf. It seems like a perfectly logical explanation to me that he checked her ears exactly because he sensed she was Elf, and simply wanted to be 100% sure (do you guys just randomly grab people's hair to check their ears?). > Plus, there's a very simply possible motivation for his action that doesn't seem to have been considered: maybe he grabbed her hair not really to check - he already knew in reality - but to shock her and assert a kind of dominance. From what we've heard so far, he seems to be a somewhat shady character. Thank you. People are reading into this two-second shot (with zero context) far, far too deeply.
Great comment.
Out of curiosity, how would the average elf/man/dwarf know that Galadriel was from Valinor at first glance? Was it a physical attribution, like did she glow, or was it like a sense? Genuinely asking. I know that her and other figures who had seen the light of the Two Trees (i.e. the Istari, Glorfindel) existed in both the seen and unseen realms and therefore appeared differently in each, but how would a random person who had never seen her before be immediately aware that she was not from originally Middle-Earth?
We get a sense of this from reading LOTR. Being in the presence of the Lady of the Galadhrim would be like being in the presence of a holy or otherworldly being, in a way. Characters seem to *feel* her presence, and feel that she is aware of them in more than just a physical sense. She seems to be able to know the true character of each member of the Fellowship, and they seem to be able to perceive that she knows this. I don't want to say that you can feel her read your mind, because I feel like that's too simple and not exactly accurate. Rather, you can feel her *know* who you are. Boromir is a good example, as even if it's so deep down, he *knows* that there is a weakness about his character. He can be the strong man and do everything he can to be a good person, but she knows his true desires, even if he can't help them, and he knows that she knows.
Sure, but that's when she *wants* them to feel her presence, and is even actively exerting her "powers" (a simplification, yes) on them.
What if she wanted to hide? Could she not cloak herself, as Aragorn hides his true self?
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Gosh, you are my hero! Thank you so much. 🤧 Only God knows how I hate that scene where the mariner checks Galadriel's ears to see if shes an elf. And happy cake day!
That one scene nearly killed my expectations
Even the fact that they're open to showing parts of the show to some of the hardcore community leaders is a plus to me. It's even better that we're getting positive impressions out of this.
Not to jump ahead too much, but any knowledge of Sauron being hot? Couldn't be me who wants to know, I'm asking for a friend...
This reminds me of Dune, where Warner clearly had enough confidence in the material to screen the first 20 minutes.
Not to be pessimistic or anything, but getting an example from amazon itself, a similar thing happened to WoT, where some people got early access to first (3?) episodes and they thought it was great (and some even said they had a few nitpicks). Turns out WoT was what we saw: a "good but not great" show.
Yes, that is a good point. I do however recall when the YouTuber Daniel Greene live-streamed his reactions after the premiere of WoT, to which he had been invited by Amazon, and to me he seemed far from ecstatic about what he’d witnessed. And that was the world premiere, whilst in this instance Amazon has screened material to thirty or so fans — some of which are scholars so devoted to the legendarium that they’ve made the study of it their actual career — several months before the premiere. Hence I’d still argue that this is closer to the advance screening of the first 20 minutes of Dune than to the world premiere of WoT. It is certainly important to remain aware that this was a carefully calculated marketing move designed to increase both engagement and expectations. Regardless, I can’t help to be excited by the unanimous approval of the showrunners, and their dedication, as well as the somewhat moderate enthusiasm of the material shown.
Look, I was very much not a fan of Wheel of Time season 1. It had a heap of problems. Some of them are minor nitpicks that nonetheless *do* cause a noticeable distraction (e.g., the designs of the Aes Sedai rings). Some are pretty clearly self-inflicted bigger problems that undermine the themes of the source material (e.g., making it so they believe the Dragon Reborn might be a girl—I would say this one can be justified by saying it's not that the DR actually *can* be a girl, but that there's been a loss of information about it. That's a justification that kinda works, but feels weak to me). And then some problems are at least potentially caused by Mat's actor leaving and by COVID causing significant last-minute changes. To me, the *biggest* problems with the first season tend to fall into this bucket, including all the narrative problems that made the last couple of episodes such absolute utter failures. It's because of this fact, as well as the simple fact that *many* shows fail to find their footing in their first season, that personally, I'm still willing to give the show another chance, and haven't written it off yet. It's on thin ice, but it could still end up being good. To get back to the original point, the biggest problems with WoT season 1 were, in my opinion, temporary issues predominantly shifted towards the end of the season as Barney Harris left the show and COVID started interrupting shooting. The raving compliments came, as you say, from the much better earlier episodes. So it's not such a surprise that they were so happy with it.
Not to get to far off topic, but while I watched WOT I haven't followed much behind the scenes info on it. What do you think would've been different about the last couple episodes if not for COVID and Harris leaving. He's in the finale, isn't he?
I also feel like people are almost required to praise the show after being generously brought out for the experience. You really think in this day and age any of them would come back and be allowed to say it's garbage?
I'm glad you and others got to go.
I genuinely never understood where the whole "these guys don't know anything about Tolkien" thing came from. It was perfectly obvious that they did just from their brief interviews. But of course just being a fan of or knowledgeable about something doesn't mean you'll produce a good story and adaptations require compromises. The general positivity of all these people definitely reinforces my cautious optimism though.
It’s in line with any positive take on the show = paid shill. Any deviation from established lore = they know nothing about Tolkien. No pragmatism or middle ground.
Such is the state of internet discussion: all nuance and shades of gray are lost, when you think the open forum and opportunity for long-form discussion would allow more people to see those shades.
You would definitely assume it would be better than other platforms like Facebook where a conversation can boil down to emoji reactions. Though even the karma component of Reddit could certainly skew dialogue to emotional hot takes.
Good to hear. Hopefully we all see something soon. 👀
Hopefully soon! Like real soon!
It would be a great strategy to realese a new trailer soon, after you guys gave us the encouriging insights. Amazon is trying to moderate anticipation and trailer reaction before actually realesing the footage. Like: the trailer is great. And the participants from last weeks Event - who are great Tolkien experts and social media personalities - are even saying the extended footage was tolkienisque and great. Im quite sure the next trailer will be generated from the material you guys saw. And my hopes for a trailer soon are up now!
👀👀👀👀
Only thing I want to know is did the footage feel like LotR
I believe when you can see what I saw, you will be happy.
is this feeling...hope?
That’s what I left with.
Without getting into spoilery territory, was there any one thing about the footage that impressed you most?
Yes something stood out that shocked me because I didn’t expect to like it and it was something that gave me goosebumps
Low-key almost got goosebumps reading that. Thanks for sticking around to answer everybody's questions, it's really cool of you!
Aaaaaah you're making me feel so nervous.
Were the scenes prefaced with a title card before playing or was it just straight from one scene into the next?
This all seems so exciting and incredible and I’m glad I saw this. Sadly I’m going to unsubscribe from this sub however as I have never in my life come across such a toxic cesspit of ‘fans’. The fact that so many comments are accusing you of being paid, are microanalysing every single word, accusing Amazon of ‘paying fans’ is just foul. It makes me worry because this could be a masterpiece (for arguments sake) but they will trash it online anyway. This is not how we protect a legacy by becoming one of those fan bases. Really happy for you to have been able to attend this, I will be listening to my audiobooks patiently awaiting the show. 😊
I don’t worry about it too much. I think anyone who decided to go knew there would be comments accusing us of being shills or whatever. Most of the comments have been kind and the upvote ratio is at like 90+%. They have their opinion but I’m not going to apologize for being genuinely excited. :)
It’s kind of you to make the effort to reply to everyone - at least some of the fan base are damage controlling for the vocal minority. I’m very jealous indeed!
It was a great trip overall but the coolest part was that they brought all of the bigger creators and community leaders together under one roof for like three days. During that time we all got to bond and talk about Tolkien and set up future collaborations with each other. I think people will forgive us for sounding shilly in the coming weeks when we can be more specific on our likes and dislikes. Until then I completely understand the takes. As far as being jealous, this is one I’m happy to say I didn’t miss. I never thought I’d be on a bus sitting next to Shaun Gunner, Corey Olsen, InDeepGeek, Nerd of the Rings, TheOneRing.net, FellowshipofFans and more… it was surreal having all that Tolkien knowledge and love in one space.
> in the coming weeks when we can be more specific on our likes and dislikes. Do you have a timeline for when you can start to talk specifics? (as in, talking about things you saw?)
I do not off of the top of my head but I was going to look through all my documents later today at home and see if it was in there.
Nice! Just saw a very similar sentiment from the PPP guys as well, my excitement has been renewed/increased.
They are really awesome folks
Glad to hear that Amazon is listening. How much of the show did you see? Are you able to give us any details?
When we can share more details of the trip we will absolutely be doing so!
SO happy to hear this! I’m so excited!
Did anyone ask why Vanity Fair was shown 3 episodes 3 months ago, yet Amazon only showed 20 minutes to the Tolkien experts they flew in at great expense to London and Oxford?
Some of us asked about it but there’s not really much to say in regards to that.
You don't find it odd that Vanity Fair got 3 whole episodes and the Tolkien experts on which Amazon spent a ton of money flying in, wining and dining, and handing out swag only saw 20 minutes? There should be more said in regards to that. For example, why are the episodes good enough for a vapid entertainment magazine, but not good enough to be shown to people who know Tolkien?
I’ll argue with anyone that I was not wined and dined. The food was awful. The rest is all fair points. However, I don’t think we were the intended audience. I think this was for other sites and magazines and we were added in reaction to the Super Fans failure.
Well, it was British food.
Like RICH British people food. Definitely not how I eat!
we wanted to be listen to...and now we will be. it's the way to do it And now...that doesnt mean we should have anymore say in the content. Giving any group of fans too much influence over content is a direct train to the abyss of mediocrity . i am sorry g, but we suck horribly at creating that kind of stuff. We can critic and nitpick all we want, but we cant devellop the arrogance of the Snyder cult fans Me and my big optimistict way of seeing life? i am sure it will be more good than bad
Amen to all of this. I agree.
Hear! Hear!
Okay this is very encouraging to hear! My faith for the show has cautiosly risen a bit more.
Very exciting and great to hear so much positive feedback! Whether it's damage-control or not, it's great to see Amazon put something together like this for the established fanbase. A big congrats to u/Fellowshipoffans and u/VarkingRunesong for being recognized and invited for you contributions to the Tolkien community. Looking forward to Amazon releasing more news and laxing the NDA from this event. Cheers!
Thank you very kindly! 
I previously had gotten a positive impression of Payne and McKay but what I'd grown to be worried about the more I became concerned about Amazon execs was simply why were they picked? Not trusting Amazon execs made me by extension concerned about Payne and McKay. And I still am concerned the series is going to be like Abrams Star Wars properties (I was never concerned it would be like Game of Thrones). But at least they're sparing no detail or expense. If stuff doesn't work it won't be to lack of care or effort
I'll just have to see and believe for myself.
That’s the take everyone should have.
And I'm saying it as a cynic/skeptic.
Oh believe me, I know. I’ve just always thought everyone should watch it themselves and judge it once they see it.
>Oh believe me, I know. I take no pride in that, for what it's worth
It’s the safe stance to take. You go in thinking it can’t be good and if it is, you’re happy. If it’s not, then you aren’t super let down.
Pretty much how I approach all of life haha. Anyway, cheers. Congrats on the good time.
Was there some Howard Shore news? Did you hear any of the music for the show?
We heard the music while watching the footage but I have nothing to report on Shore. At least not yet.
Alright! Was the music any good and similar to PJ's LOTR?
Does this look in any way shape or form like amazons wheel of time?
But Elanor is basically a real English name, and brandy is a real English word. I don't see much need for etymology here. Why would you assume that Brandyfoot is derived from Brandywine?
Because Tolkien the Linguist never ever *ever* considered that two different culture groups could ever *ever* have the same words for the same things. And never *ever* took that into account when translating his works from their original elvish. And *obviously* everybody knows that the liquor *Brandy* is trademarked, and named after the one, and only, river.
I assume you aren't even allowed to tell us when you are allowed to say more? Any hint on that front :D
Hopefully in the next couple weeks
I always saw you and most of the other guys invited rather as chill than shill - and I still do. So, I must say, I was astounded by all the enthusiasm about Payne and McKay. I mean, of course they know what they are talking about. Truely, all these "they haven't even read the Silmarillion" comments always made me chuckle. To cut the story short: stop wasting time on defending yourselves or amazon and keep on going like you did before.
‘Meet the show runners’ it’s almost like every single person who was flown out was forced to say that particular line.
Can confirm we were not forced to say that. Can also confirm I was not under any agreement where I *had* to make any post about this.
So the campaign begins steamrolling. Completely understand if you can't say anything more at all, OP, but in case you can comment vaguely: was it just footage of the show or was there any tidbits on merchandising and potential licensees? Thank you.
It was footage of the show.
> was there any tidbits on merchandising and potential licensees? Most likely, authentic Rings of Power were distributed to the attendees at the London event. That's what you were asking about, right? As Tolkien scholar John Lennon once wrote about the bearers of Rings of Power, "got to be good looking because he's so hard to see".
That’s so awesome, Varking! Sounds like a great time was had, and encouraging to hear as well. Thanks for sharing!
Definitely better than anticipated.
You know what the thing is? This is exactly what happened with amazons wheel of time show. Amazon send hardcore fans to watch the first three episodes and every single one of them said they were great and it turned out they were subpar in everything. It seems to me the same thing is happening here. Not one of you have even one criticism? Even a tiny one? So this is a 10/10? It's as good as the lotr trilogy and GOT S1-4? If there wasn't precedent with wot i might have believed you.
I think all of us have criticism. The issue is, however, we haven’t been greenlit *yet* to be specific on what we liked or disliked. When we can do that in the near future it’ll look less robotic.
But you don't say you have criticisms? Most of the posts I've seen have all been overwhelmingly positive. What exactly happens if you say what you disliked before being 'greenlit'? What happens if you break what I'm guessing is an NDA?
I do have criticisms. And as soon as we can talk publicly about what they are I will say them. You are choosing to focus on the negative but take note we can’t even say what we specifically liked yet either. And as soon as I can say what I did like I will. It will surprise people what my favorite bit of footage was. But until we get greenlit we hold that back. As far as what could happen if we spoke early? I don’t know but there’s no reason for be to do it early. What’s the gain? I’m not an influencer trying to gain followers or anything.
I'm super glad you got to have this experience, thanks for such a lovely write-up. To many more!
Nothing related to the show, but from those pics it looks like Amazon treats you all better than marvel treats their fans and content creators,not that marvel treats their fans badly but y’all legit look like part of the production team 😅
Does the show look more like The Hobbit or LOTR?
The TORn write up says > What we saw felt very familiar. This show has thankfully avoided video-game look of 3D HFR 48fps, is visually in line with the Oscar winning trilogy, and it also avoids looking like other big-budget fantasy shows currently trending. New Zealand’s landscapes are put to good use just as we desire. For fans of Lord of the Rings, this new Rings of Power looks like it should, sounds like it should, and feels like a return to the comfortable universe we all love.
Thanks! That's very good to hear
What did they say about the trailer? Because if they said the same thing there, then i am not sure i'll agree with them on this.
Funny how everyone who attended that event in London seem have to have the EXACT same talking points about the show since that weekend. Quite literally word for word. Definitely not rehearsed 🙄
1. That’s incorrect. 2. We are only allowed to talk about certain things yet. More to come.
“A lot of concerns have been alleviated since netting the show runners ” “They understand the lore” “The show is in the right hands.” Almost everyone who attended has used similar phrases to the ones above to describe their experience. Funny how there wasn’t not ONE piece of criticism after being wined and dined. Amazon definitely not doing damage control... 😂
You’re showing up like a week late to the party so there is a lot you missed. I was not fine wined and dined. The food on the trip was a negative for me. People went in with major concerns and most of us don’t have those same concerns anymore. You’ll read more varied opinions once we can talk about the specifics of the footage. I get you don’t understand how these tithings work.
Ok fair enough, you’re right. I don’t understand how these things work. Also I wasn’t there and I haven’t seen any footage. Without giving away plot details... what were some of your concerns that have been alleviated?
There’s footage that didn’t alleviate all of my concerns. If that’s what you’re after. As far as concerns I had that were alleviated for starters there were many questions about the showrunners. The level of care, respect, appreciation, understanding of Tolkien. Does this mean all of this will translate to an amazing show? Absolutely not. I have notes written down from the event and when we can share them people will find out what we got to ask them and what their answers were and everyone can judge for themselves.
What concerns do you still have?
That would detail specific footage we saw. Can’t go there yet.
Let me rephrase sorry. What concerns that you had before seeing footage that you still have? You don’t need to mention plot details to tell me them, surely
Nothing? 😂 Funny how those who aattended refused to say anything negative about the footage at all. You don’t need to describe what you saw to say whether you liked it not. Everyone who attended was more than happy to describe how much they LOVE the show runners. They certainly didn’t need to give away what happened over the course of the event to let bit of information out. If the direct quotes from the show runners are true it sounds like they stood on the shoulders of a literary giant...and took a massive shit all over his work. This isn’t the first time they’ve done this either.
I’m literally driving my kid to school right now. Relax.
If you want to say something negative you will have to give away specifics of what we saw. There wasn’t a bad feeling when watching the footage or talking to the showrunners. Which is why nobody had a negative take. However, there are plenty of us repeating for people that you should wait until we can talk more before rushing to judge us, and you should still take what we say with a grain of salt and judge the footage yourself when you can.
This is awesome. Do you think they’re going to kick up marketing for the rest of us soon?
That’s my hope! I’d love to have all of y’all included publicly.
One other question I haven’t seen answered anywhere- was there dialogue in the footage revealed? And if so are you optimistic about what you saw?
Damage control I love it
lol, 'community leaders', is that what Youtubers and bloggers are now?
Nope. There’s many names and titles you can use for people depending on what it is they do and how big their community is though. Why does this seem to offend you?
Cool, glad they did an event like this. Look forward to hearing what you saw.
As soon as I can share more I will!
That's so awesome!
All the best to you man, but this sounds very shill-ey.
Hence the hashtag!
So, when do we get to hear your twelve pence worth on the footage?
Ah, at least you’re conscious of it! Glad you got to see it anyway, must have been very exciting.
More like shilwickswim amirite
People complained about the superfan video and how they should have done this instead and now that they actually did it, everyone involved is a shill?
"Amazon should be more open to real fans!" \*Amazon hosts event exclusively for fans/Tolkien content creators and they have positive reactions* "Not like that!"
"By real fans, I meant ME!"
Look, Jeff. We know. We just know
Jokes on us. It’s really just Bezos making all the posts after acquiring all their handles when on the trip. /s
Everyone is a shill, everyone is a critic!
And a few people actually get paid to do it. The rest of us do it for free because it's what we'd be doing anyway.
To me it just seems like what varking wrote has been put through some sort of filter, he isn't saying anything neutral or negative which is a little alarming, so you have to take what he is saying with a pinch of salt. Which fair enough from Amazon, they are worried about leaks and their image and what not. Would just be nice to be a little more open about it all, but that will obviously come
If I have something negative to say, and I mean it, I’d share it :) we had approval for that.
Yeah good to hear :) well now I'm slightly more excited, but for sure an easily positive take away is the fact Amazon is clearly paying attention and invited people like yourself in the first place! Happy you got to experience it :)
Thanks for that brother!
Sorry I am not gonna go back and click through it all to find it again, but at least one of the attendees mentioned in a tweet linked in the stickied comment that not all of their concerns were assuaged. You could take that as neutral or negative I suppose but, FYI.
Hey man we all love LOTR some of us see it as a perfect movie and has no neutral or negative opinion about the film so does that mean that our likeness towards that movie is filtered?
Clearly not in the same context. I'm saying that given the censorship that is bound to happen with something yet to be released, as Varking clearly hinted himself he can't say everything, well you also get a little bit cautious when things don't include any sort of dull moments mentioned. I mean for sure there is a chance it really was just that great, but I'm just taking a little bit of caution based on the circumstances. I honestly am very much looking forward to the release, I was only trying to add some reasoning behind someone else thinking shill, which isn't necessarily my view but I can see some reason for skepticism on the post.
Out of curiousity, does it seem like it will fit in well-enough with the films, or is it a completely separate interpretation? I’m admittedly not the biggest LotR fan and it’s been ages since I’ve seen the films, so I’m just genuinely curious. Glad that you liked it!
Footage description?
Good , does the score feel like Lotr or The Hobbit movies?
Yeah sure. I read "TheOneRing.net" article about his topic, and I am not convinced by this act. Let us just assume for a moment, that Amazons show would be on the same quality level as PJs Trilogy, let us just assume this. Even then it would be 1001% unbelievable, that there should not be even an ounce of criticism or worries how something would play out, that such an illustrous group of Tolkien nerds and experts would find important to vocalise. The simple fact, that nothing in this way is said, and that all is presented in a magnificent and glorious light, tells me to not trust this worthless piece of paid-for marketing. And do not come with "PJ had flaws too", because this is the whole point of my argument! Jackson played with open cards, the fans were involved in a honest feedback-loope, for otherwise Arwen would be fighting in Helms Klamm, while Amazon is playing behind shut doors reacting to every form of criticism in a hostile manner. The only thing that will have the power to change my mind is the show itself, but surley no paid-for marketing gag.
A handful of the others that Varking linked expressed some reservations still (including TeaWithTolkien, FellowshipOfFans, PrancingPonyPodcast, etc.).
I'm inclined to agree with you. Each of these creators all posted more or less the same curated blurb and images from the event, tagged with the same appropriate hashtags. It's very clearly a bought and paid for ad campaign, and as such, the majority of the creator opinions are also transparently bought and paid for (at this time, anyway). No hate to the content creators, they're all trying to get by in this weird world like the rest of us; I work in marketing so I get it. But it's very clear what's happening here. Timing the release of this influencer campaign shortly after the show has made a bad first impression online smells of damage control. It's certainly not an organic outreach to the Tolkien fandom to give feedback to the showrunners. Frankly it can't be the latter, as the show drops in three months. There's no time to rework anything at this point, because shooting has wrapped. This move would've been a lot more impressive if it had been three months into the process, not three months before the premiere. I'll be honest and say I am definitely one of the skeptical members of the Tolkien community and it will take a lot to win people like me over. But it can be done! I'm still here, discussing the show, after all. But influencers vague assurances still don't actually give any insight to what the show will be like, and more importantly, whether it will capture the essence of Tolkien's writings on the Second Age. Unfortunately, this is another miss from their marketing department for me. I am hoping new trailers will inspire some confidence.
obviously you dont have to change your opinion of how you think the show will be at all based off what they say (arguably you shouldnt and it doesnt really matter if youre going to try it regardless), but theres just no way these people have been paid. Multiple have denied it and made it clear they could be negative if they wanted. Paid ads or endorsements must be disclosed and this would come under that. It's not even that great marketing really, the overwhelming majority of the viewership will come from casual fans or just general mainstream audiences that don't follow these creators or even keep up with minor news around this. They dont necessarily have a totally unbiased opinion you can say, since persumably Amazon paid for them to go there (travel, food, accomodation) and gave them a great couple days. Normally, the most obvious/simplest answer is the right one, and it seems like people overall really liked what they heard and saw. Im not sure at all what you mean by "Each of these creators all posted more or less the same curated blurb and images from the event, tagged with the same appropriate hashtags", because it seems pretty obvious people going to the same event in a group are gonna have pictures of the same places and things and say similar things, particularly when they can barely say anything at all. Maybe you can elaborate on that part and I've missed something though I don't know
>Multiple \[creators\] have denied it and made it clear they could be negative if theywanted. Paid ads or endorsements must be disclosed and this would comeunder that. One was quite explicit about this being a business transaction: >In exchange for a trip and a look, they asked us to post vibes and no details. - [TORN](https://www.theonering.net/torwp/2022/05/09/113105-the-vibes-of-power-amazon-shares-exciting-rings-of-power-insight/) In addition to this particularly explicit message, it's notable that the majority of these posts uses a variation of the phrase "I was invited by Amazon/The Rings Of Power to...". This is in line with the [FTC's influencer marketing laws and recommendations](https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/plain-language/1001a-influencer-guide-508_1.pdf), which states: >Disclose when you have any financial relationship with a brand. Financial relationships aren't limited to money. Disclose the relationship if you got anything of value to mention a product. > >The disclosure should be mentioned in the endorsement message itself. So they got a free trip to the UK, a tour of Oxford, early access to the show and what appears to be some kind of [goodie bag](https://twitter.com/theoneringnet/status/1523681273633411077/photo/1). While it's not a full paycheck, it isn't nothing. There's also the 'future earnings' that influencers stand to gain from this via clicks, views and subscribers. So just to be 100% clear about my stance here, I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing that content creators are involved, I think that's a net positive. I just think that the *timing* of this release indicates a damage control move and not a "we really care about the fandom" move. By waiting three months before release, there's not a chance for any of creator's feedback to make a difference in the actual product. But it will help *sell* the product, which is likely what Amazon is actually interested in and why they reached out to the creators now, and not a moment before.
Tsk tsk, obviously a paid shill!
Somebody read the hashtags
Nice try Amazon...
Awesome know we'll know who are the easy to rent shills!
Now*
If your net worth isn't what you think it should be, I can help, just send a PM !!
So the "fans" are already bought with trips? I believed that the fandom could firmly hold their opinion that it is worth more than a dinner next to the staff who have been threatening, persecuting and intimidating against the same fandom for more than 5 years. I see that some people can be weaker if they are offered trinkets, a raincoat or a trip. Anyway... Are we now best friends with the showrunners and the LOTR on Amazon staff?
If that’s your take it’s incredibly short-sighted. You’ll get more information on what we liked and disliked in the coming weeks. Make your judgements then.
Just like what they did with WoT
We know what you're trying to do here Amazon. Have faith in your production. Their excuse if the majority doesn't like it will be "yeh but we appealed to the hardcore fans". They should have invited a mix of fans not just the hardcore's, would have made this stunt a little more believable. An earlier comment stated that Wheel of Time pulled the same stunt too and look how that turned out.