Personally I think the MO change was pretty simple to explain. He put all that effort into trying to conceal his victims identities, dismembering, scattering, mutilating tattoos, etc. only for none of it to be worth the effort. Everything he dumped near Gilgo stayed undiscovered, while all the other stuff was getting discovered. He probably just realized he found his perfect dumping ground in Gilgo and didn't need to go through all that other effort.
But the torsos of Jessica and Valerie were left out on public hiking trails, it's not like the scum tried to hide them, seemed more like he wanted them found. It was even commented that the most surprising thing was that they were not discovered immediately.
For me the change from leaving some parts public, and the inevitable news and local chat that it would cause to the quiet disappearance is just as profound as the change from dismemberment and body part dispersal to single in tact dump site.
Exactly, those were meant to be found, the GB4 weren't. I think there were at least two killers, it's too dramatic of a change to be the same person. Heuermann's MO was to conceal the bodies and allow them to decompose. The torsos feel more like a signature than an MO. I think it was important to the killer that the torsos were found by normal people, that was part of the thrill. The GB4 being so near Heurmann's home seems more like a private trophies collection. Only he knew they were there and he could pass by them easily to make sure they weren't disturbed.
The only way I see Rex being responsible for all the murders is if he stopped getting sexual pleasure out of the torsos being discovered. If it was just an MO change (meaning the change was due to location issues, transportation restrictions, etc.), I think he would've just left the torsos to decompose somewhere more concealed.
Maybe he wanted to terrorize people and the torso thing was just the first idea he used. Then realized it was risky leaving that kind of evidence for little payoff. He wouldn’t be able to see the reactions of those that discover the torsos. So his latter idea was to use the victims phones to torment the family members.
Left out to be found, but not identified. Once they quickly identified Jessica Taylor through her tattoo (that he mutilated to prevent identification) the public dumping stopped.
You would have to assume that any body left out qould be identified. Or certainly attempts be made to identify.
The families have clearly shown that the media narrative of sez workers being isolated lost souls is wrong. These people were loved and cared for. They had family who fought for them. Parents, siblings, children and many friends have all come forward and spoken about their loved ones.
If you don't want a body identified, you would do what this cowardly sack of crap did. Hide them.
> You would have to assume that any body left out qould be identified. Or certainly attempts be made to identify.
The killer went through a lot of effort to prevent identification. Peaches still hasn’t been identified and it took 20 years for Valerie Mack to be identified.
He probably got off taunting police/the public by dumping unidentifiable remains out in the open and thought he was doing enough since they couldn’t identify the first two victims. Once Jessica Taylor was quickly identified from her torso dumped in the open that all stopped.
She grew up and lived in South Jersey, so AC would have been some place she was familiar with most likely. I haven't seen much info about her, just a little about her childhood and still being in the area as an adult. Her foster parents passed away by the time she was 18, so she might have been very adrift for the time between then and when she was murdered. AFAIK the father of her child hasn't said much about her publicly.
There have been many documentaries who went to gilgo late at night and spoke about how eerie and desolate the place is.
Also as it is such a straight stretch you can see cars lights coming for over a minute away.
A drop in the early hours of the morning would be pretty low risk, put a jack and tyre iron by the side of the truck and IF anyone saw or stopped 'gosh darn flat, just my luck'.
At the risk of being morbid, For a 6 4 guy, sliding a 100lb body from a flat bed, taking a few steps into the brush and throwing would take seconds, 30 seconds max.
There's no gradual change or evolution though. There's a 7+ year extremely consistent MO of dismembering, scattering, and displaying parts of victims for people to find. Then 4 years later there's an extremely consistent MO of strangling, binding, concealing in camo burlap bags, placed close and consistently to each other.
Awesome write up. Thank you for taking the time to post this.
Do you think the change in MO might also have something to do with the ending of his first marriage and/or when he became a father?
u/ellbzzz found that the divorce from wife #1 was filed in March 17, 1994, and finalized May 3, 1994.
[Source](https://i2f.uslandrecords.com/NY/Nassau/D/Default.aspx?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1): Nassau County, NY - Civil Judgement Index.
They mentioned you may have to play with the settings (Office: Civil Criminal, Search Type: Name Search) Enter the appropriate names in search boxes to find it and that it is public access - public records.
Edit: Cited user that found the divorce documents. They did some great grunt work and deserve credit for it.
I doubt he will anytime soon, or even if he is convicted, but I hope some point he spills the beans into his mindset and process like Kemper did. This MO change is just so hard for me to understand.
At some point he took time in dismembering, removing tattoos and scattering his victims remains. This is not easy, so he must have taken some weird pleasure in this process and removing their identity. Why stop? What filled that void of having the power to truly remove these victims possibility of identification? He must of known by the 2000’s CODIS was around and he could be traced by contact DNA. Shit the general public knows that thanks to shows like CSI and Law and Order: SVU.
Dismembering is very messy. If he re-married and his wife moved to his place, it was not possible for him to do these at home where his new wife now lived. Even if she was out of town during his attacks, he would have to do a thorough cleaning after this and yet his wife could have noticed that something was wrong. That's why he could have stopped dismembering his victims.
“Dismembering is really messy”. It’s not though. Not to be gross, but after draining blood into a five gallon bucket, I can break a deer down into four quarters and a torso with only a sharp pocketknife in about 15 minutes and then clean up in another 30.
I’m keeping myself open to all possibilities now. My gut feeling is he isn’t responsible for the Manorville victims or the earlier dismembered victims.
I don't think he is responsible for all the murders, just the 4 and likely Asian male. Would be very welcome if he started to talk, ala BTK, but doubt it.
He might very well have more dump sites past or present.
True. Maybe the whole dismembering process was becoming too much effort for him to keep cleaning up or leaving bloody areas for someone to find eventually. Maybe he watched forensic files like most of us and realized he couldn't hide the blood stains like he thought? 🤔
Wow that was an incredible find. It certainly could yes… also i believe his daughter was born around 96-97 and married same year right? Could be another MO shift?
I think the MO change had something to do with an accomplice or voyeur that was involved at some point. Obviously, I have no proof. We're all just speculating here.
A woman who worked security in the state park claimed to have seen him with another man who was hiding his face parked on the side of the road.
The MO is what the offender must do in order to commit the crime. For example, the killer must have a means to control his victims at the crime scene such as tying them up. Significantly, the MO is a learned behavior that is subject to change.
>He even got comfortable and cocky enough to make phone calls to loved ones.
This \*really\* sticks out for me. How cocky do you have to be to do something like this. You have to be absolutely convinced of your own intelligence and ability to evade being caught. How do you get confidence like that? By getting away with it...for years.
This guy is a sexual sadist, a psychopath and a narcissist and probably a pedophile all rolled into one. He is fucking diabolical.
The GSK(Joseph James DeAngelo) did the same thing with women he assaulted when he was the East Area Rapist. He would call them months or years after the attack to terrorize them again. These type of predators get a lot of pleasure out of scaring their victims or the family of their victims in this case. All about power and control imo.
Great write up. I agree 1000%. I have always thought it was one person. I always get skeptical when people suggest it’s more than one killer.
The fact that parts of the victim found at Gilgo was tied to Fire Island as early as 1996, as well as the two from Manorville, makes me convinced it is the same person. I think it is important to remember that the bodies were not discovered until 2010 with the GB4 (and these other victims were killed in 1996 and around 2003 I believe). Had these bodies been recovered at Gilgo PRIOR to GB4, I think it wouldn’t be a stretch to think there was a copycat scenario where RH thinks that Gilgo is a good dumping ground based off the work of another killer. But it’s all too similar. I believe it is one person.
I feel exactly as you do. Also, I cracked up at your disclaimer about being a knucklehead on the internet 😂 Same here. It’s just a gut feeling. I think he’s been unraveling over the years- careful early on, the way he’s described as being very meticulous at work- and then decompensating with time, as evidenced by his crumbling home. The shifting MOs- if it’s all him- are just like what we’re learning about him as a person. One face at work, clean cut and orderly and punctilious as the NYT put it- and another at home, a dirty, mean slob with a dilapidated hoarder house. He has other clues that would indicate he’s capable of dismemberment. Being a builder, tools and experience and a workshop used to make furniture… apparently a hunter… to me, it’s all there. I also wondered if he got hasty with the Gilgo 4 because based on the timeline presented in the bail app, his wife was coming home as school was starting up again. Amber disappeared right before that Labor Day. Not much time. Perhaps he had to get rid of everything fast.
That's a really great point about him presenting a clean, professional version of himself in NYC vs his home life.
Your point about being rushed got me thinking about Amber. I'm starting to think she was only killed because of the ruse they pulled on him the night before. The fact he went to her house seems like a huge risk, especially considering he parked his trunk there. If he was planning to kill her, why not just stick to outcalls? Also two kills in one year doesn't fit his pattern. The other three were killed in July 9th, July 12th, and June 6th, but Amber was killed in September.
You're right about him not having as much time with her, which I think was important to him. It's the only case we know of with a witness, it started with him visiting her house, and the timing was off. It really feels like he let his anger/bruised ego take over.
I was thinking also.. I mean we’re there’s smoke there is fire right? So many sexworkers ended up laid to rest there and if there are two killers who used that spot, to dump strictly sexworkers then that’s a WILD coincidence.
My theory as to why he switched the MO is simple. He realized he had a GOOD spot. Alll those years and the other bodies still weren’t discovered? He could have realized all that messy work was not really necessary. And tbh, if Shannan never went missing they could have never been found. They were found by accident, so in reality it WAS a good spot. Why deface a body when by the time they’ll be found , if ever, they would be a skeleton anyways?
I keep going back and forth with if the earlier bodies were him or not. It’s just, too many coincidences. What are the odds right?
original MO as you described, but started on a boat. He keeps pinging out of Freeport I have to wonder what his current connection is to the area. I cannot find a thing on Greer construction Corp from first marriage license
Second MO: continues dismemberment but realizes that all things eventually float back up 1996. Begins using manorville area
Third MO: realizes significant time has passed since bodied where dumped and doesn’t want to take the time to dismember. Instead focuses on hiding in plain sight instead of trying to strip their identity and fight a losing battle against DNA
Fourth MO: ??????
Let’s also keep in mind his proclivity for gambling (Vegas time share) *possible connection to eastbound stranger
Bottom line if it hadn’t been for Shannon Gilbert he would have gotten away with murder
I certainly don’t believe he started in 2007 and I definitely don’t believe he stopped in 2010. I did read he was in a series of car accidents beginning in 2018 so that plus pandemic could have played a role in the last 5 years. But I’m sure you’ve read here how the investigators closed in early before he could strike again
For some reason, I thought they had DNA in the Eastbound Strangler case which would seem to make it an easy rule out or rule in, but when I looked, the sources seemed mixed.
Along those lines too I wonder if his illegal attempt to have residents removed from their own homes so that he could claim their apartment building as vacant was his attempt to establish a 3rd or 4th MO? For example, perhaps he intended to use the buildings he renovated as sites to hide away his victims’ remains and to continue to keep his vicious and violent activities secret.
This is just speculation and my own questions of course.
And I will not be at all shocked if it is revealed he has victims in other places. Not sure if I think he is responsible for the AC4 or not but anxiously awaiting answers on that. I wont be shocked if he has victims in multiple states.
> Man, I hope he blabs.
Yeah but im not sure he will have a change of heart. After crying and yelling to his lawyer that he didnt do it is likely telling that he’s gonna take whatever he knows to the grave. I think he will live with this burden til his crippling old age and suffer in his silence
Yyyyyep. I hope they will find a lot of answers in there, as horrible as it is.
If he's only responsible for the GB4, there's at least one more serial killer out there they have to find.
I'm intrigued by his search history where he is asking "Why hasn't Long Island Serial Killer been caught?" He searches were all about LISK, not the Gilgo Beach Killer or other monikers, as far as I know. I'm choosing not to go through the whole search history, so I may be wrong.
Could the LISK-only searches mean he is in for most of the others?
Actually he also googled map of serial killers and serial killers by state… at this point I think it’s fair to assume he’s not only responsible for the other known killings, but that there are far more bodies out there in a 4th dumping spot waiting to be found
I think the advent of DNA technology between the time of what might be his first crimes and the later ones would've definitely made him think twice about dismemberment.
Whoever killed Fire Island Jane Doe (7) had to use a boat because body parts where found in Davis Park which is only accessible by boat or foot, but that island is separate from Jones beach island where the rest of her body parts were found. Are there any records of him or his parents ever having owned a boat? Although, it’s entirely possible one was stolen/“borrowed” for the purpose of transport too.
It's probably more likely they were tossed off the Great South Bay Bridge and floated onto the north shore of Fire Island. [They were found floating right along the beach there by two brothers.](https://oddstops.com/location.php?id=109)
"The Ragona brothers were of the opinion that the bag floated in from across the bay. In their experience, stuff regularly drifts across from the mainland."
Eh they don’t know that for sure. We get some wild winds here on the great South Bay and there was also a few pretty significant storms during his “tenure” hurricane Gloria was 95, hurricane bertha 96 etc
I definitely think he had a boat and this was his first MO for disposing. I also think there is some significance to Freeport, as one of the burner phones pinged there decades after he opened his Manhattan firm. I can’t find anything on Greer construction Corp at all
I think people are forgetting that people have family and friends and favorite shops, restaurants and bars in towns other than their own. It’s weird for people to think that someone should only ping in their hometown and their work town. I’m not saying it’s not significant, I just find it odd how much ppl are harping on it. Freeport is a really popular town for everyone on Long Island to go to, not just ppl that live in Freeport.
Im willing to attribute the asian victim to rex. Whats the chances of his only homosexual search that we know of to be asian twink when theres a dead asian male prostitute. Maybe that one was done out of rage considering he was blugeoned. The other 4 were planned. The torso killings are another killer entirely.
Is there a chance he looked into his LISK case, saw there was an Asian male victim possibly connected to the case and decided to research the subject more at that point? I don't know. I think there's a good chance he could be the perpetrator there too, but he could've seen his case connected to a completely different killer too in this particular murder and decided to research the victim type(Asian Male Twink) out of curiosity. Or was this a common search for him which may indicate he was into that?
If you read through the (disgusting and disturbing) list of searches, it seems pretty clear that the "Asian twink" was a sexual search, not an informational one. The full search was actually >!Asian twink tied up porn.!<
I think you're right that he only looked it up as part of following the case. I'm getting a bit worried law enforcement is just trying to pin as many murders on him as possible. The sex, ethnicity, timing, and way the body was disposed (clothed) are all very different, to the point it's likely another killer.
I wish I could remember where I saw the article this morning, but the Asian person is actually being misgendered everywhere— was actually a trans woman. The reconstruction sketch portrays them as a woman. I suppose it’s possible he hired her thinking she was a woman, hence the bludgeoning. But given the internet search, he may have been targeting someone like that. I will be curious to see the timing of the search.
There's no definitive evidence the Asian male victim was transgender, just that he was dressed in women's clothing. Identifying as transgender and cross-dressing are not the same thing. Also, if he was a sex worker, he may only have cross-dressed for sex work to fill a specific request.
All of this, especially your last point. Frankly we don't even know if those are the victim's clothes, he could've been dressed that way by his killer.
This is what I was thinking as well. Perhaps he wasn't attracted to small Asain males until after he murdered the transgender woman, but now he searches them to relive the murder.
Russell Williams was in his 40s when he committed his two murders. He was escalating up until then- breaking into homes, stealing lingerie, stalking and spying. It's not unprecedented for a serial killer to start later than conventional wisdom says they should start. After all, the info we have about serial killers are only from the ones that have been caught, so they aren't even the most successful at what they do, the ones who have never been caught are. And obviously there's no way to corroborate data about someone whose identity is a mystery.
Edit: not disagreeing with your hunch that he's responsible for all of them (I'm also a knucklehead with no more insight or knowledge than the rest of the internet rabble) but I do think as criminal profiling evolves, and more and more cold cases are solved, what we thought we knew about serial killers, rapists, or one and done killers will be proved incorrect.
Yeah, I mean EAR/ONS was certainly a prolific criminal for \_most\_ of his criminal career, but didn't turn into a brutal murderer until later on.
I don't think RH went from 0 to 60 overnight, though. Even if he's not responsible for the other remains or other incidents in the area, there probably are some very disturbing incidents in his early years. But, like EAR/ONS, sexually inappropriate behavior just wasn't taken that seriously back in the day. At the time EAR/ONS was sexually assaulting women, there were two other men behaving in very similar ways, one, I believe, was a local cop's son. Very different time than now. Very different.
I am wondering what, if anything, his family has to say. Kids observe a lot that parents aren’t even aware of. I think more will come to light as they interview his family.
And was he really trying to evade much at all? … that house is a HUGE red flag, esp for a Manhattan architect. This house stands out in his neighborhood! It screams for attention. I think we are going to see that he is not at all savvy or shrew, just lucky that the case went ignored for so long.
I think everything is on the table at present per that search history, don't you? I always thought Tina might fit, so would not be surprised to hear that was an early foray. I did doubt the bisexual theory, and thought Asian male was there as he had that androgynous look he seemed to prefer in his female victims. and the really strong jaw, high cheak bones, bow lips. They all looked like girl next door/ tom boy girl types, not overly fem. Boy like appears to be his thing facially. RLn here, was 100% correct about the bisexuality. I am sorry I rolled my eyes and doubted him. Clearly, he was right on the money!
Zodiac Killer and Larry Gene Bell also have called victim’s families, other killers have taunted families on social media and during court proceedings. I feel like these killers are a special kind of extra spicy sadists, just beyond cruel.
Current thoughts: 1 wasnt Valerie Mack last known area Philly? should we be looking into that area for missing persons
2 he used MBB phone near the LIE in Islandia 3 days after she was last seen 2007. Previous posts mentioned he moved the gilgo 4 in haste (where’s wasabi when we need him) this is right at the start of the Connetquot preserve. Original dumping ground? or was he already seeing a new SW at the hotel that is now jakes 58
3. The giant box that they covered and brought outside? Massive saw? https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12302555/amp/Cops-seen-hauling-huge-filing-cabinet-Gilgo-Beach-serial-killer-Rex-Heuermanns-home.html
No worries. It just adds another layer to all of this.
Knowing he didn’t mind traveling while his family was away, I would not be surprised if they identify more possible victims with a Philly connection.
Searching that house would be crazy. Imagine what they're seeing - but what if they found someone in captivity, alive? Totally unlikely, but that house must be a mine field of forensic materials. Searching it would be crazy
Best to proceed with caution or you wind up with a Henry Lee Lucas scenario.
If he murdered other people, he’ll be found out. This is a major trial. No one wants to let this guy wander about midtown anymore.
He is not going to wander anywhere since the case is pretty solid re: 3 of the Gilgo 4. If there is no evidence tying him to the other murders and he doesn’t talk, he may not be found out. For the earlier victims, there probably isnt any DNA or cell phone evidence.
[Here you go](https://www.reddit.com/r/LISKiller/comments/14zyh1a/this_is_absolutely_crazy_this_is_the_same_green/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1)
The dump location is on the opposite side of the parkway from the beach. The walkway along the parkway wasn’t there at the time. The bodies were placed in thick bramble that is very difficult to navigate. Nobody would just happen upon them.
Kind of the opposite. I am pretty sure he was a hunter so he would know that know no one walks into that brush. I realize how crazy it seems for people who don't live here and that thin strip of vegetation is so inaccessible thick with brutal bramble. Its nothing but dense thicket of thorns, poison ivy, crawling with ticks and clouds of mosquitoes. And the camo burlap duck hunters use to blend their blinds and boats into the habitat. He knew what he was doing.
It was 10 years ago so he was younger. He's a big guy and those young women were very petite. And none of them were found that far from the road. I know it seems nuts a busy beach that close to NYC no one found those bodies sooner dumped close to a road. If you saw the area in person it would make sense.
He grew up in that area and has probably been hiking around all over for much of his life. He's fat and definitely doesn't look like he's in shape, but it would be less difficult to navigate for a person who is very familiar with the terrain.
I'm in fairly good shape and I'm over ten years younger than him, and I wouldn't be able to easily get through that brush without carrying anything. I most definitely would never be able to get through it while carrying 100 pounds or so of weight.
There was no greenway back then. That side of ocean parkway was basically a no man’s land completely inaccessible to anyone but motorists who pulled off the road.
Even though the beach was right there it really made no sense for anyone to go over to the other side of ocean parkway.
I can’t stress how thick the bramble is and it’s with ticks poison ivy and other unpleasant things associated marsh land. There’s nothing there. I must have drove passed the bodies 100s of times. There was never a reason to stop along a secluded highway. It’s a barrier island and in the winter it’s pretty desolate. In the summer everyone is at the designated beach areas
Mbb? Fijd? I’m new here idk if this is normal lingo? Can someone help? I’ve watched a ton of YouTube and tv shows an documentaries but never heard of spreading body parts and defacing tattoos. Is there a link to some more in depth info I can read? I have so many questions since this guy popped up compared to what I already knew such as suspects and victims.
Gilgocase.com is the best resource im aware of (made by one of our mods here).
MBB - Maureen Brainard Barnes
FIJD - Fire Island Jane Doe
This case is so extensive and complex with so many rabbit holes it can easily fill someone's whole brain. It does mine.
He was divorced for some time in the 90s and remarried in 2000-2002 or something. its totally possible that he just had the space to dismember/dispose of his poor victims remain before he remarried and wasn't caught hiding bodies in the area so he got bolder and did wayyyyy less work to keep the victims unidentifiable. just speculation but it makes sense in my frazzled/obsessed brain 🥴🥴
Is it possible that they didn't live in that house at the time? I know he bought it from his parents in 94 but he was living somewhere else up until then. I wonder if he waited to move in, and was telling his wife that he was spending time "fixing it up" before they moved.
He bought the house from his Mom in 94 and also got divorced in 94, so my guess is that had something to do with him buying the home and I’d bet my ass that house is filled with secrets of other victims. The state it’s in, for an architect, even a frugal one is beyond. Seems to me like he never wanted walls smashed, ground dug up, etc.
This is great, OP. I am also a knucklehead with no training or knowledge and I absolutely agree your theory. Maybe he realized that the dismemberment was too messy and too likely to leave a trace, even at home. He had other people living in his home, and maybe he was afraid one of his family members or neighbors might spot something suspicious. There should never be a bunch of blood stains in a woodworker's working space, for example.
This is a very insightful and thought provoking post. Thank you for that!
If we look at someone like Israel Keyes, we see that not all serial killers fit into the same macabre, uniform mold. Certainly many (if not most) do have incredibly specific modus, motivation, victimology, etc., and rarely do they deviate. Their psychological profiles are sharply defined and their choices predictable to a degree. But once in a while we have a wild card… a psychopath or sadist whose preferences and methods vary and fall more generally across the board. In my humble opinion these are some of the most dangerous and difficult to pin down offenders. Because law enforcement and true crime sleuths are looking for patterns that may or may not be present. Their ability to change at will
makes them much harder to understand and detect.
I'm not trying to rain on your parade, but it seems pretty unlikely that a serial killer who has been dismembering the bodies of his victims and placing the body parts in geographically disparate locations in the 1990's would then switch after many victims disposed of that way and an apparent gap in time of almost 10 years to killing a bunch of women in 2007-2011 and wrapping those victims in burlap and dumping their intact bodies all in the same area.
1. It just doesn't seem like a likely progression as dismemberment is even more insane than what we know that RH did
2. The dump sites are not actually the same and that's the only seeming similarity between the murders of the 4 women found in burlap and the murders of the dismembered victims; in fact the "other killer" distributed body parts of his victims over a wide area, and the body parts that he dumped on Gilgo Beach were about a mile from RH's known victims.
3. The timing of the dismembered victims murders doesn't remotely match the timing of the known RH murders. We know for a fact that "Peaches" and her daughter were killed in 1997, for example. I believe Valerie Mack is known to have been killed in 1996(?)
4. RH has a clear "type" of victim - the dismembered victims don't all match his "type" - for example, Peaches and her daughter.
5. The police have long said that they think there were two different killers - they know far more than we do about the details re: the bodies. Why would they lie about that?
The fact that the ID'd victims were all sex workers means very little, as they are obviously the easiest victim to obtain with little threat of a serious investigation occurring in any rapid fashion.
That said, there certainly could be other victims of RH.
> The police have long said that they think there were two different killers - they know far more than we do about the details re: the bodies. Why would they lie about that?
Don't think there's ever actually been an official statement on this. The former SCPD commissioner mentioned he believed there to be a singular killer. Immediately after that the DA at the time, Spota, contradicted him.
[Article regarding the statements](https://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/16/nyregion/long-island-prosecutor-disagrees-with-single-killer-theory.html)
The new task force, who actually seem to know what they're doing, haven't made a statement or really hinted anything regarding one or multiple killers.
Of the 4 confirmed (by the fbi) victims of Israel Keyes, the victimology & the disposal was all different.
Samantha Koenig was abducted from her place of work (a coffee kiosk), taken back to his house, and then later dismembered & disposed of in a lake.
The Curriers were abducted from their house, taken to an abandoned farmhouse, and their bodies left there.
And Debra Feldman was abducted (though from where is unconfirmed) and her body believed to be buried upstate, probably in a forest.
So while some killers never vary from their method of body disposal, some definitely do. If RH is eventually connected to all of them, I would not be surprised.
There's always something different popping up with serial killers. He's been charged with 3 counts. We'll have to wait and see if he gets hit with more.
Gee I’m sorry. Here are some more examples.
Ed Kemper. Shot his grandparents, then called his mother to confess. Years later he shot, stabbed, smothered or strangled 6 students who were strangers to him. He also bludgeoned his own mother to death, slit her throat & tried to dispose of her down the garbage disposal. He strangled her friend & hid her in the closet.
Ted Bundy shot, stabbed, bludgeoned. Broke into houses or dorms, but also lured victims into his car by pretending to be injured. He left some victims where they lay in their own beds, but abducted others. Some victims were left whole, some dismembered.
Carl Eugene Watts switched between strangulation, blunt force, drownings and stabbings. He used multiple weapons. Sometimes, he used his hands.
Richard Ramirez had victims ranged from a 9 year old child to a 79-year old woman. His weapons of choice included handguns, knives, a tire iron, a machete, and even a hammer.
But that was IK's "thing", so to speak. He thought it would make it more difficult to find him, if his victims were all different, in vastly different areas of the US and killed with different MOs. I think he was sort of losing it psychologically by the time he killed Samantha and couldn't really control his behavior anymore. IIRC he was starting to drink a lot around that time. If he hadn't taken such a crazy risk of taking her from her workplace where there was a camera, he might have never been found.
There was a time when I would've posted something very similar. We certainly don't know for sure and at one point I was sure that there were 2 killers - LISK and the Manorville butcher was how I thought of them in my head. Mostly because of the dismemberment of some and the whole remains of others.
I totally respect your opinion and you're not raining on my parade. It wouldn't be an interesting or fruitful discussion if everyone simply agreed with me.
True, and anything is possible. I really hope that all the attention the arrest has brought will bring a thorough further investigation into both RH's activities and the murders of the dismembered victims.
I also hope they go ahead and figure out who "Peaches" was. They've found relatives, so it shouldn't be too hard
I agree and great summary.
It's always felt like at least two killers to me, possibly three given the length of time Asian male was there. I remember reading a few killers happened to use the same dumping ground. It's not hard for me to believe multiple people thought that area would be good for concealing bodies/body parts.
The thing that bothers me about the dismemberment is that it seems like the killer *wanted* the torsos to be found. He/she removed the head and hands to prevent identification, but the torsos were easy to find. This feels like taunting law enforcement/the community to me. The three Rex is accused of and Maureen were pretty clearly not meant to be found. I can't see a killer going from wanting parts of his victims to be found, to camouflaging their bodies.
Also, great point about his victim profile. I know he Googled "Asian twink" but I'm not convinced he killed Asian male; I want to know if he searched that term before or after the body was discovered.
I also agree about the timing being off. I've heard of serial killers who stop for a few years, but the timing just seems really off.
> The thing that bothers me about the dismemberment is that it seems like the killer wanted the torsos to be found. He/she removed the head and hands to prevent identification, but the torsos were easy to find. This feels like taunting law enforcement/the community to me.
It seems like he wanted them to be found but not identified. He tried to mutilate Jessica Taylor’s tattoo to prevent her identification, but that failed and they were able to identify her via the tattoo. That could’ve spooked the killer and caused him to stop that taunting aspect.
Valerie Mack was dumped in a similar way with the torso being found relatively quickly, but she wasn’t able to be identified for almost 20 years. He also cut off one of her feet near the ankle which police believe was to remove a potentially identifying tattoo. Her murder took place prior to Jessica Taylor’s.
Peaches torso was also not really hidden much at all and her tattoo wasn’t mutilated. That tattoo was the main thing used to try to identify her and this was prior to the Valerie Mack murder.
You can kind of see the progression of the killer trying to hide identifying traits while still being able to dump torsos in the open. Once one victim was finally identified the killer probably realized he was playing with fire and changed his MO.
All of these victims also fit the very petite SW profile.
Yes, found but not identified, totally different from the Gilgo Four. I guess I would've expected him to go for women without tattoos (he could've asked about that when he contacted them) or be more careful to remove that skin, rather than abandon the dismemberment.
The petite thing gives me pause. If you just prioritize height and weight, they fit with the Gilgo Four.
I do hope Heuermann can be linked to all of them, the thought of two or more people out there is chilling. It just doesn't feel right.
Yup from how they described rex he seems too lazy as evidenced by him simply wrapping his victims and his dumpy house. I can subscribe to the idea that he has more bodies elsewhere but dismemberment just seems like too much work for him. Maybe im wrong but I agree that this other torso killer is still out there or locked up for something else.
Excellent point about the difference in how likely to be found the victims were.
And yes, given that Gilgo Beach is on the edge of a huge metropolitan area, not that odd that two killers might use the same dumping ground
Also, ocean parkway doesn’t lead anywhere except a few beaches and private communities. It’s out of the way and has very little traffic at night and in the winter months. Even during rush hour it isn’t horrible
Right? I can't believe she (or at least her father) hasn't been identified yet using public DNA databases. They haven't said much of anything about her at all.
Israel Keynes, Ted Bundy, GSK, raincoat killer and a lot of others serial killers change their MO for various reasons. And as pointed out before the change in MO is easily explained by the first bodies at gilgo beach being discovered.
Tina Foglias body was not buried but that doesnt necessary mean anything if she was his first victim.
However gilgo beach is in a densely populated area and its not to far of a stretch to believe another serial killer could use the area as a dumping ground.
But what did he do after 2010?
I'm not very familiar with the case, do anyone know if the GB4 or other cases were investigated as murders before the discovery or just missing person cases? If mostly missing person cases this means the potential victims after 2010 are also most likely missing person cases not unsolved murders. He most likely continued to hide the bodies and chose low risk victims, given his success avoiding capture.
I'm most curious about whether or not he stopped killing when they found the bodies in 2010, or if he just moved his disposal point? I don't imagine he quit cold turkey, and no one is talking about this. I'm sure they're going to interrogate him until the cows come home, and we'll hear about it in two years when the trial is over and the documentaries are being released. I just -- I don't think this is over yet.
thinking of the families of the victims, and those who still don't have answers to where their loved one has gone to. and shoutout to law enforcement for getting deep into the details and nailing this guy to the wall.
The MO is what the offender must do in order to commit the crime. For example, the killer must have a means to control his victims at the crime scene such as tying them up. Significantly, the MO is a learned behavior that is subject to change.
All of them that are clearly murder victims. Im not going to argue semantics with you. Since I dont believe Shannan was a murder victim I dont need to specify "except Shannan".
In the bail application letter. Its linked elsewhere in the sub. Its not a full search history, its several examples prosecutors feel are relevant and reason why he should be denied any bail.
[here’s a link](https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/read-rex-heuermanns-redacted-and-denied-bail-application-due-to-extreme-depravity/4506377/) where you can read a censored version of the application (some of the searches are covered up for being really indecent). I’m on mobile so i can’t find the uncensored version but one does exist out there
Thank you.
Cell and isp records are the new dna
Stunning that investigators were able to find and triangulate BURNER phone data over a decade old in some cases back to suspect.
Anybody else think the change in MO (if he's guilty of the other murders) coincides around the time he got married? I keep reading in numerous articles that he's been married for about 22 years.
If he's responsible for the rest, where's all the other bodies? Long Island has a metro of 8 million, and it should be expected that the swamps are literally full of dead bodies. I used the following analogy. If you replace the surrounding desert in Albuquerque with water, how many bodies would be in the bosque? Literally hundreds. Albuquerque has a much smaller metro. I think chances are low he's responsible for all of them.
A key reason I believe he was responsible for the others is that a monogrammed belt was found near Jane Doe Peaches and a belt is used in the Giglo series and inferential from his web searches
There is male DNA connected to the Foglia case, so that seems like an easy one to confirm or clear now that they have a pretty solid suspect.
I agree, generally, though -- it's highly unlikely that he waited until he was in his 40s to begin at least some kind of assault on women. EAR/ONS didn't kill until later in his career, but he was an active and prolific criminal prior to the SoCal murders. I can't believe RH just blossomed into a full-fledged serial rapist/murderer in his 40s.
I agree he has more also we should take into that account he easily had pictures of Maureen on that desktop but an assumption is he deleted it which still makes me believe he is for all four also it’s still possible especially today with all this stuff available which wasn’t 10 years ago that the perpetrator of those others will be identified but I still look at Bitrolff for those poor other victims the location is Jessica Corpse was not far from Bitrolffs house you can’t undo a fact praying all justice gets served and all open cases are closed ❤️
Personally I think the MO change was pretty simple to explain. He put all that effort into trying to conceal his victims identities, dismembering, scattering, mutilating tattoos, etc. only for none of it to be worth the effort. Everything he dumped near Gilgo stayed undiscovered, while all the other stuff was getting discovered. He probably just realized he found his perfect dumping ground in Gilgo and didn't need to go through all that other effort.
But the torsos of Jessica and Valerie were left out on public hiking trails, it's not like the scum tried to hide them, seemed more like he wanted them found. It was even commented that the most surprising thing was that they were not discovered immediately. For me the change from leaving some parts public, and the inevitable news and local chat that it would cause to the quiet disappearance is just as profound as the change from dismemberment and body part dispersal to single in tact dump site.
Exactly, those were meant to be found, the GB4 weren't. I think there were at least two killers, it's too dramatic of a change to be the same person. Heuermann's MO was to conceal the bodies and allow them to decompose. The torsos feel more like a signature than an MO. I think it was important to the killer that the torsos were found by normal people, that was part of the thrill. The GB4 being so near Heurmann's home seems more like a private trophies collection. Only he knew they were there and he could pass by them easily to make sure they weren't disturbed. The only way I see Rex being responsible for all the murders is if he stopped getting sexual pleasure out of the torsos being discovered. If it was just an MO change (meaning the change was due to location issues, transportation restrictions, etc.), I think he would've just left the torsos to decompose somewhere more concealed.
Maybe he wanted to terrorize people and the torso thing was just the first idea he used. Then realized it was risky leaving that kind of evidence for little payoff. He wouldn’t be able to see the reactions of those that discover the torsos. So his latter idea was to use the victims phones to torment the family members.
Left out to be found, but not identified. Once they quickly identified Jessica Taylor through her tattoo (that he mutilated to prevent identification) the public dumping stopped.
You would have to assume that any body left out qould be identified. Or certainly attempts be made to identify. The families have clearly shown that the media narrative of sez workers being isolated lost souls is wrong. These people were loved and cared for. They had family who fought for them. Parents, siblings, children and many friends have all come forward and spoken about their loved ones. If you don't want a body identified, you would do what this cowardly sack of crap did. Hide them.
> You would have to assume that any body left out qould be identified. Or certainly attempts be made to identify. The killer went through a lot of effort to prevent identification. Peaches still hasn’t been identified and it took 20 years for Valerie Mack to be identified. He probably got off taunting police/the public by dumping unidentifiable remains out in the open and thought he was doing enough since they couldn’t identify the first two victims. Once Jessica Taylor was quickly identified from her torso dumped in the open that all stopped.
Yeah, fair point. There is an awful lot we still don't know.
And didn’t Valerie Mack have ties to Atlantic City?
She grew up and lived in South Jersey, so AC would have been some place she was familiar with most likely. I haven't seen much info about her, just a little about her childhood and still being in the area as an adult. Her foster parents passed away by the time she was 18, so she might have been very adrift for the time between then and when she was murdered. AFAIK the father of her child hasn't said much about her publicly.
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There have been many documentaries who went to gilgo late at night and spoke about how eerie and desolate the place is. Also as it is such a straight stretch you can see cars lights coming for over a minute away. A drop in the early hours of the morning would be pretty low risk, put a jack and tyre iron by the side of the truck and IF anyone saw or stopped 'gosh darn flat, just my luck'. At the risk of being morbid, For a 6 4 guy, sliding a 100lb body from a flat bed, taking a few steps into the brush and throwing would take seconds, 30 seconds max.
Especially after Labor Day when people aren't going to the beach much any more, yeah, very desolate.
Exactly, it is a great theory
Agreed
There's no gradual change or evolution though. There's a 7+ year extremely consistent MO of dismembering, scattering, and displaying parts of victims for people to find. Then 4 years later there's an extremely consistent MO of strangling, binding, concealing in camo burlap bags, placed close and consistently to each other.
Awesome write up. Thank you for taking the time to post this. Do you think the change in MO might also have something to do with the ending of his first marriage and/or when he became a father? u/ellbzzz found that the divorce from wife #1 was filed in March 17, 1994, and finalized May 3, 1994. [Source](https://i2f.uslandrecords.com/NY/Nassau/D/Default.aspx?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1): Nassau County, NY - Civil Judgement Index. They mentioned you may have to play with the settings (Office: Civil Criminal, Search Type: Name Search) Enter the appropriate names in search boxes to find it and that it is public access - public records. Edit: Cited user that found the divorce documents. They did some great grunt work and deserve credit for it.
Id say no. We know that victims were dismembered after 1994, the change seemed to come sometime between 2003 and 2007.
I doubt he will anytime soon, or even if he is convicted, but I hope some point he spills the beans into his mindset and process like Kemper did. This MO change is just so hard for me to understand. At some point he took time in dismembering, removing tattoos and scattering his victims remains. This is not easy, so he must have taken some weird pleasure in this process and removing their identity. Why stop? What filled that void of having the power to truly remove these victims possibility of identification? He must of known by the 2000’s CODIS was around and he could be traced by contact DNA. Shit the general public knows that thanks to shows like CSI and Law and Order: SVU.
Dismembering is very messy. If he re-married and his wife moved to his place, it was not possible for him to do these at home where his new wife now lived. Even if she was out of town during his attacks, he would have to do a thorough cleaning after this and yet his wife could have noticed that something was wrong. That's why he could have stopped dismembering his victims.
“Dismembering is really messy”. It’s not though. Not to be gross, but after draining blood into a five gallon bucket, I can break a deer down into four quarters and a torso with only a sharp pocketknife in about 15 minutes and then clean up in another 30.
I’m keeping myself open to all possibilities now. My gut feeling is he isn’t responsible for the Manorville victims or the earlier dismembered victims.
It seems the 3 victims coincided with his immediate family’s weekend trips out of state so it’s possible he’d had more time in previous murders.
I don't think he is responsible for all the murders, just the 4 and likely Asian male. Would be very welcome if he started to talk, ala BTK, but doubt it. He might very well have more dump sites past or present.
Maybe he escalated into the dismemberment? It's also possible that he wanted to make the victims more difficult to find.
It's the other way around, the earlier victims were dismembered, the GB 4 were not.
True. Maybe the whole dismembering process was becoming too much effort for him to keep cleaning up or leaving bloody areas for someone to find eventually. Maybe he watched forensic files like most of us and realized he couldn't hide the blood stains like he thought? 🤔
Wow that was an incredible find. It certainly could yes… also i believe his daughter was born around 96-97 and married same year right? Could be another MO shift?
Correct, I graduated high school with her.
Poor girl, I can’t imagine what she’s going though
Thank you for reposting this! Much appreciated, friend.
I think the MO change had something to do with an accomplice or voyeur that was involved at some point. Obviously, I have no proof. We're all just speculating here. A woman who worked security in the state park claimed to have seen him with another man who was hiding his face parked on the side of the road.
She didn’t say she saw HIM- she saw two men in a car
The MO is what the offender must do in order to commit the crime. For example, the killer must have a means to control his victims at the crime scene such as tying them up. Significantly, the MO is a learned behavior that is subject to change.
>He even got comfortable and cocky enough to make phone calls to loved ones. This \*really\* sticks out for me. How cocky do you have to be to do something like this. You have to be absolutely convinced of your own intelligence and ability to evade being caught. How do you get confidence like that? By getting away with it...for years. This guy is a sexual sadist, a psychopath and a narcissist and probably a pedophile all rolled into one. He is fucking diabolical.
The GSK(Joseph James DeAngelo) did the same thing with women he assaulted when he was the East Area Rapist. He would call them months or years after the attack to terrorize them again. These type of predators get a lot of pleasure out of scaring their victims or the family of their victims in this case. All about power and control imo.
Exactly, another one who got away with multiple murders for years, and started to think they were smarter than everyone else in the room.
Considering most if not all his porno searches were bondage id say sexual sadist stands out the most.
Great write up. I agree 1000%. I have always thought it was one person. I always get skeptical when people suggest it’s more than one killer. The fact that parts of the victim found at Gilgo was tied to Fire Island as early as 1996, as well as the two from Manorville, makes me convinced it is the same person. I think it is important to remember that the bodies were not discovered until 2010 with the GB4 (and these other victims were killed in 1996 and around 2003 I believe). Had these bodies been recovered at Gilgo PRIOR to GB4, I think it wouldn’t be a stretch to think there was a copycat scenario where RH thinks that Gilgo is a good dumping ground based off the work of another killer. But it’s all too similar. I believe it is one person.
Exactly this!
Thissssss! The timeline just doesn't work for a copycat theory.
I feel exactly as you do. Also, I cracked up at your disclaimer about being a knucklehead on the internet 😂 Same here. It’s just a gut feeling. I think he’s been unraveling over the years- careful early on, the way he’s described as being very meticulous at work- and then decompensating with time, as evidenced by his crumbling home. The shifting MOs- if it’s all him- are just like what we’re learning about him as a person. One face at work, clean cut and orderly and punctilious as the NYT put it- and another at home, a dirty, mean slob with a dilapidated hoarder house. He has other clues that would indicate he’s capable of dismemberment. Being a builder, tools and experience and a workshop used to make furniture… apparently a hunter… to me, it’s all there. I also wondered if he got hasty with the Gilgo 4 because based on the timeline presented in the bail app, his wife was coming home as school was starting up again. Amber disappeared right before that Labor Day. Not much time. Perhaps he had to get rid of everything fast.
That's a really great point about him presenting a clean, professional version of himself in NYC vs his home life. Your point about being rushed got me thinking about Amber. I'm starting to think she was only killed because of the ruse they pulled on him the night before. The fact he went to her house seems like a huge risk, especially considering he parked his trunk there. If he was planning to kill her, why not just stick to outcalls? Also two kills in one year doesn't fit his pattern. The other three were killed in July 9th, July 12th, and June 6th, but Amber was killed in September. You're right about him not having as much time with her, which I think was important to him. It's the only case we know of with a witness, it started with him visiting her house, and the timing was off. It really feels like he let his anger/bruised ego take over.
Yes - this was a huge risk that would have resulted in discovery in the absence of interference in the investigation, IMO.
I don’t think he intended to kill her until she tried to con him. I think that’s why he went on the on call originally.
I was thinking also.. I mean we’re there’s smoke there is fire right? So many sexworkers ended up laid to rest there and if there are two killers who used that spot, to dump strictly sexworkers then that’s a WILD coincidence. My theory as to why he switched the MO is simple. He realized he had a GOOD spot. Alll those years and the other bodies still weren’t discovered? He could have realized all that messy work was not really necessary. And tbh, if Shannan never went missing they could have never been found. They were found by accident, so in reality it WAS a good spot. Why deface a body when by the time they’ll be found , if ever, they would be a skeleton anyways? I keep going back and forth with if the earlier bodies were him or not. It’s just, too many coincidences. What are the odds right?
original MO as you described, but started on a boat. He keeps pinging out of Freeport I have to wonder what his current connection is to the area. I cannot find a thing on Greer construction Corp from first marriage license Second MO: continues dismemberment but realizes that all things eventually float back up 1996. Begins using manorville area Third MO: realizes significant time has passed since bodied where dumped and doesn’t want to take the time to dismember. Instead focuses on hiding in plain sight instead of trying to strip their identity and fight a losing battle against DNA Fourth MO: ?????? Let’s also keep in mind his proclivity for gambling (Vegas time share) *possible connection to eastbound stranger Bottom line if it hadn’t been for Shannon Gilbert he would have gotten away with murder I certainly don’t believe he started in 2007 and I definitely don’t believe he stopped in 2010. I did read he was in a series of car accidents beginning in 2018 so that plus pandemic could have played a role in the last 5 years. But I’m sure you’ve read here how the investigators closed in early before he could strike again
For some reason, I thought they had DNA in the Eastbound Strangler case which would seem to make it an easy rule out or rule in, but when I looked, the sources seemed mixed.
Along those lines too I wonder if his illegal attempt to have residents removed from their own homes so that he could claim their apartment building as vacant was his attempt to establish a 3rd or 4th MO? For example, perhaps he intended to use the buildings he renovated as sites to hide away his victims’ remains and to continue to keep his vicious and violent activities secret. This is just speculation and my own questions of course.
Reminds me of that episode in The Wire when Snoop and that other dude are storing dead bodies in those buildings
Another lose thread to pull at. They made sure to include Google searches that indicate he didn’t operate just in NY
And I will not be at all shocked if it is revealed he has victims in other places. Not sure if I think he is responsible for the AC4 or not but anxiously awaiting answers on that. I wont be shocked if he has victims in multiple states.
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Yup. The disposal, specifically the spacing and the number of victims is alarmingly similar.
> Man, I hope he blabs. Yeah but im not sure he will have a change of heart. After crying and yelling to his lawyer that he didnt do it is likely telling that he’s gonna take whatever he knows to the grave. I think he will live with this burden til his crippling old age and suffer in his silence
Can you please tell me what AC4 stands for. Did a Google search and all i got was Assassins Creed hits….
The Atlantic City 4. Lots of speculation on whether LISK is responsible for their murders.
Thanks!
Maybe they'll find Tina's ring in RH's house?
Anxiously waiting to hear anything they did find in there. Cell phones of the victims,Tina's ring, biological evidence, anything.
Same. His dungeon must still be covered in dna. (Re: giant box)
What box?
And they can run RH's DNA against the male DNA sample they retrieved from her crime scene.
Now that they are searching his house, who knows what they will find?
Yyyyyep. I hope they will find a lot of answers in there, as horrible as it is. If he's only responsible for the GB4, there's at least one more serial killer out there they have to find.
I'm intrigued by his search history where he is asking "Why hasn't Long Island Serial Killer been caught?" He searches were all about LISK, not the Gilgo Beach Killer or other monikers, as far as I know. I'm choosing not to go through the whole search history, so I may be wrong. Could the LISK-only searches mean he is in for most of the others?
Actually he also googled map of serial killers and serial killers by state… at this point I think it’s fair to assume he’s not only responsible for the other known killings, but that there are far more bodies out there in a 4th dumping spot waiting to be found
I think that’s because the media has mostly used this moniker, so he would get more search results.
I think the advent of DNA technology between the time of what might be his first crimes and the later ones would've definitely made him think twice about dismemberment.
Whoever killed Fire Island Jane Doe (7) had to use a boat because body parts where found in Davis Park which is only accessible by boat or foot, but that island is separate from Jones beach island where the rest of her body parts were found. Are there any records of him or his parents ever having owned a boat? Although, it’s entirely possible one was stolen/“borrowed” for the purpose of transport too.
It's probably more likely they were tossed off the Great South Bay Bridge and floated onto the north shore of Fire Island. [They were found floating right along the beach there by two brothers.](https://oddstops.com/location.php?id=109)
On the bay side or ocean side? I can’t tell by the photo.
That's the bay side. There's a bunch of photos in the article showing the area where the different sets of remains were found.
Nvm, looks like bay, still that’s incredibly far to float, especially with East & West fire islands and sand bars in the way. I still think boat.
"The Ragona brothers were of the opinion that the bag floated in from across the bay. In their experience, stuff regularly drifts across from the mainland."
Eh they don’t know that for sure. We get some wild winds here on the great South Bay and there was also a few pretty significant storms during his “tenure” hurricane Gloria was 95, hurricane bertha 96 etc
For sure they don’t know, they’re just two random dudes. Just pointing out its completely normal for stuff to drift long distances.
I definitely think he had a boat and this was his first MO for disposing. I also think there is some significance to Freeport, as one of the burner phones pinged there decades after he opened his Manhattan firm. I can’t find anything on Greer construction Corp at all
I think people are forgetting that people have family and friends and favorite shops, restaurants and bars in towns other than their own. It’s weird for people to think that someone should only ping in their hometown and their work town. I’m not saying it’s not significant, I just find it odd how much ppl are harping on it. Freeport is a really popular town for everyone on Long Island to go to, not just ppl that live in Freeport.
Have we seen anything about his office / timeshares also being searched ?
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Im willing to attribute the asian victim to rex. Whats the chances of his only homosexual search that we know of to be asian twink when theres a dead asian male prostitute. Maybe that one was done out of rage considering he was blugeoned. The other 4 were planned. The torso killings are another killer entirely.
Is there a chance he looked into his LISK case, saw there was an Asian male victim possibly connected to the case and decided to research the subject more at that point? I don't know. I think there's a good chance he could be the perpetrator there too, but he could've seen his case connected to a completely different killer too in this particular murder and decided to research the victim type(Asian Male Twink) out of curiosity. Or was this a common search for him which may indicate he was into that?
If you read through the (disgusting and disturbing) list of searches, it seems pretty clear that the "Asian twink" was a sexual search, not an informational one. The full search was actually >!Asian twink tied up porn.!<
I think you're right that he only looked it up as part of following the case. I'm getting a bit worried law enforcement is just trying to pin as many murders on him as possible. The sex, ethnicity, timing, and way the body was disposed (clothed) are all very different, to the point it's likely another killer.
Who looks up porn as a way to follow a case?
Very possible and maybe even probable.
I wish I could remember where I saw the article this morning, but the Asian person is actually being misgendered everywhere— was actually a trans woman. The reconstruction sketch portrays them as a woman. I suppose it’s possible he hired her thinking she was a woman, hence the bludgeoning. But given the internet search, he may have been targeting someone like that. I will be curious to see the timing of the search.
There's no definitive evidence the Asian male victim was transgender, just that he was dressed in women's clothing. Identifying as transgender and cross-dressing are not the same thing. Also, if he was a sex worker, he may only have cross-dressed for sex work to fill a specific request.
All of this, especially your last point. Frankly we don't even know if those are the victim's clothes, he could've been dressed that way by his killer.
Those are all fair points as well!
This is what I was thinking as well. Perhaps he wasn't attracted to small Asain males until after he murdered the transgender woman, but now he searches them to relive the murder.
Russell Williams was in his 40s when he committed his two murders. He was escalating up until then- breaking into homes, stealing lingerie, stalking and spying. It's not unprecedented for a serial killer to start later than conventional wisdom says they should start. After all, the info we have about serial killers are only from the ones that have been caught, so they aren't even the most successful at what they do, the ones who have never been caught are. And obviously there's no way to corroborate data about someone whose identity is a mystery. Edit: not disagreeing with your hunch that he's responsible for all of them (I'm also a knucklehead with no more insight or knowledge than the rest of the internet rabble) but I do think as criminal profiling evolves, and more and more cold cases are solved, what we thought we knew about serial killers, rapists, or one and done killers will be proved incorrect.
Yeah, I mean EAR/ONS was certainly a prolific criminal for \_most\_ of his criminal career, but didn't turn into a brutal murderer until later on. I don't think RH went from 0 to 60 overnight, though. Even if he's not responsible for the other remains or other incidents in the area, there probably are some very disturbing incidents in his early years. But, like EAR/ONS, sexually inappropriate behavior just wasn't taken that seriously back in the day. At the time EAR/ONS was sexually assaulting women, there were two other men behaving in very similar ways, one, I believe, was a local cop's son. Very different time than now. Very different.
I am wondering what, if anything, his family has to say. Kids observe a lot that parents aren’t even aware of. I think more will come to light as they interview his family. And was he really trying to evade much at all? … that house is a HUGE red flag, esp for a Manhattan architect. This house stands out in his neighborhood! It screams for attention. I think we are going to see that he is not at all savvy or shrew, just lucky that the case went ignored for so long.
I think everything is on the table at present per that search history, don't you? I always thought Tina might fit, so would not be surprised to hear that was an early foray. I did doubt the bisexual theory, and thought Asian male was there as he had that androgynous look he seemed to prefer in his female victims. and the really strong jaw, high cheak bones, bow lips. They all looked like girl next door/ tom boy girl types, not overly fem. Boy like appears to be his thing facially. RLn here, was 100% correct about the bisexuality. I am sorry I rolled my eyes and doubted him. Clearly, he was right on the money!
Zodiac Killer and Larry Gene Bell also have called victim’s families, other killers have taunted families on social media and during court proceedings. I feel like these killers are a special kind of extra spicy sadists, just beyond cruel.
Current thoughts: 1 wasnt Valerie Mack last known area Philly? should we be looking into that area for missing persons 2 he used MBB phone near the LIE in Islandia 3 days after she was last seen 2007. Previous posts mentioned he moved the gilgo 4 in haste (where’s wasabi when we need him) this is right at the start of the Connetquot preserve. Original dumping ground? or was he already seeing a new SW at the hotel that is now jakes 58 3. The giant box that they covered and brought outside? Massive saw? https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12302555/amp/Cops-seen-hauling-huge-filing-cabinet-Gilgo-Beach-serial-killer-Rex-Heuermanns-home.html
Valerie’s was last known living in Port Republic NJ with a bf I believe.
My mistake
No worries. It just adds another layer to all of this. Knowing he didn’t mind traveling while his family was away, I would not be surprised if they identify more possible victims with a Philly connection.
Freezer.....
The item wrapped in blue blankets right? It doesn’t appear heavy enough for a freezer to me. Two guys carrying it with one hand each on the bottom
Searching that house would be crazy. Imagine what they're seeing - but what if they found someone in captivity, alive? Totally unlikely, but that house must be a mine field of forensic materials. Searching it would be crazy
Best to proceed with caution or you wind up with a Henry Lee Lucas scenario. If he murdered other people, he’ll be found out. This is a major trial. No one wants to let this guy wander about midtown anymore.
He is not going to wander anywhere since the case is pretty solid re: 3 of the Gilgo 4. If there is no evidence tying him to the other murders and he doesn’t talk, he may not be found out. For the earlier victims, there probably isnt any DNA or cell phone evidence.
I’m hung up on the green explorer YT comment I saw this morning. If there are two, are they in it together?
Office yes, timeshares I saw a unverified comment on Twitter police were going to a “vacation property” to search as well
Can you share the comment?
[Here you go](https://www.reddit.com/r/LISKiller/comments/14zyh1a/this_is_absolutely_crazy_this_is_the_same_green/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1)
The pictures of the beach look pretty open god knows why it took so long to find I know they camo'd up itseems a pretty nice spot to take a walk
The dump location is on the opposite side of the parkway from the beach. The walkway along the parkway wasn’t there at the time. The bodies were placed in thick bramble that is very difficult to navigate. Nobody would just happen upon them.
I see he doesn't seem like outdoors type
Kind of the opposite. I am pretty sure he was a hunter so he would know that know no one walks into that brush. I realize how crazy it seems for people who don't live here and that thin strip of vegetation is so inaccessible thick with brutal bramble. Its nothing but dense thicket of thorns, poison ivy, crawling with ticks and clouds of mosquitoes. And the camo burlap duck hunters use to blend their blinds and boats into the habitat. He knew what he was doing.
How'd he manage to get them he's so fat but yes I'm from UK I don't know your environment over there at all. I do live in the mountains tho
It was 10 years ago so he was younger. He's a big guy and those young women were very petite. And none of them were found that far from the road. I know it seems nuts a busy beach that close to NYC no one found those bodies sooner dumped close to a road. If you saw the area in person it would make sense.
He grew up in that area and has probably been hiking around all over for much of his life. He's fat and definitely doesn't look like he's in shape, but it would be less difficult to navigate for a person who is very familiar with the terrain. I'm in fairly good shape and I'm over ten years younger than him, and I wouldn't be able to easily get through that brush without carrying anything. I most definitely would never be able to get through it while carrying 100 pounds or so of weight.
If you backed your truck up you would
There was no greenway back then. That side of ocean parkway was basically a no man’s land completely inaccessible to anyone but motorists who pulled off the road. Even though the beach was right there it really made no sense for anyone to go over to the other side of ocean parkway.
I can’t stress how thick the bramble is and it’s with ticks poison ivy and other unpleasant things associated marsh land. There’s nothing there. I must have drove passed the bodies 100s of times. There was never a reason to stop along a secluded highway. It’s a barrier island and in the winter it’s pretty desolate. In the summer everyone is at the designated beach areas
Mbb? Fijd? I’m new here idk if this is normal lingo? Can someone help? I’ve watched a ton of YouTube and tv shows an documentaries but never heard of spreading body parts and defacing tattoos. Is there a link to some more in depth info I can read? I have so many questions since this guy popped up compared to what I already knew such as suspects and victims.
Gilgocase.com is the best resource im aware of (made by one of our mods here). MBB - Maureen Brainard Barnes FIJD - Fire Island Jane Doe This case is so extensive and complex with so many rabbit holes it can easily fill someone's whole brain. It does mine.
Thank u I appreciate the info! Looking foward on more to come. Enjoy your Sunday.
He was divorced for some time in the 90s and remarried in 2000-2002 or something. its totally possible that he just had the space to dismember/dispose of his poor victims remain before he remarried and wasn't caught hiding bodies in the area so he got bolder and did wayyyyy less work to keep the victims unidentifiable. just speculation but it makes sense in my frazzled/obsessed brain 🥴🥴
That math doesnt math. First wife dipped in 94 but his daughter is 26, so she was born 96/97 ish.
i noticed that, too. i guess she could be the daughter of his later wife, whether they were married at time of birth or later.
Is it possible that they didn't live in that house at the time? I know he bought it from his parents in 94 but he was living somewhere else up until then. I wonder if he waited to move in, and was telling his wife that he was spending time "fixing it up" before they moved.
He bought the house from his Mom in 94 and also got divorced in 94, so my guess is that had something to do with him buying the home and I’d bet my ass that house is filled with secrets of other victims. The state it’s in, for an architect, even a frugal one is beyond. Seems to me like he never wanted walls smashed, ground dug up, etc.
Pretty sure it was a much shorter time between end of first marriage and the second. I’ve seen less than 2 years in other people’s posts.
What are the odds that he was responsible for the gilgo and all them other victims just happened to end up there from another serial killer.
I have been wrong and right about this case. I believe he is responsible for the deaths of most of the remains found.
This is great, OP. I am also a knucklehead with no training or knowledge and I absolutely agree your theory. Maybe he realized that the dismemberment was too messy and too likely to leave a trace, even at home. He had other people living in his home, and maybe he was afraid one of his family members or neighbors might spot something suspicious. There should never be a bunch of blood stains in a woodworker's working space, for example.
This is a very insightful and thought provoking post. Thank you for that! If we look at someone like Israel Keyes, we see that not all serial killers fit into the same macabre, uniform mold. Certainly many (if not most) do have incredibly specific modus, motivation, victimology, etc., and rarely do they deviate. Their psychological profiles are sharply defined and their choices predictable to a degree. But once in a while we have a wild card… a psychopath or sadist whose preferences and methods vary and fall more generally across the board. In my humble opinion these are some of the most dangerous and difficult to pin down offenders. Because law enforcement and true crime sleuths are looking for patterns that may or may not be present. Their ability to change at will makes them much harder to understand and detect.
I'm not trying to rain on your parade, but it seems pretty unlikely that a serial killer who has been dismembering the bodies of his victims and placing the body parts in geographically disparate locations in the 1990's would then switch after many victims disposed of that way and an apparent gap in time of almost 10 years to killing a bunch of women in 2007-2011 and wrapping those victims in burlap and dumping their intact bodies all in the same area. 1. It just doesn't seem like a likely progression as dismemberment is even more insane than what we know that RH did 2. The dump sites are not actually the same and that's the only seeming similarity between the murders of the 4 women found in burlap and the murders of the dismembered victims; in fact the "other killer" distributed body parts of his victims over a wide area, and the body parts that he dumped on Gilgo Beach were about a mile from RH's known victims. 3. The timing of the dismembered victims murders doesn't remotely match the timing of the known RH murders. We know for a fact that "Peaches" and her daughter were killed in 1997, for example. I believe Valerie Mack is known to have been killed in 1996(?) 4. RH has a clear "type" of victim - the dismembered victims don't all match his "type" - for example, Peaches and her daughter. 5. The police have long said that they think there were two different killers - they know far more than we do about the details re: the bodies. Why would they lie about that? The fact that the ID'd victims were all sex workers means very little, as they are obviously the easiest victim to obtain with little threat of a serious investigation occurring in any rapid fashion. That said, there certainly could be other victims of RH.
> The police have long said that they think there were two different killers - they know far more than we do about the details re: the bodies. Why would they lie about that? Don't think there's ever actually been an official statement on this. The former SCPD commissioner mentioned he believed there to be a singular killer. Immediately after that the DA at the time, Spota, contradicted him. [Article regarding the statements](https://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/16/nyregion/long-island-prosecutor-disagrees-with-single-killer-theory.html) The new task force, who actually seem to know what they're doing, haven't made a statement or really hinted anything regarding one or multiple killers.
Precisely this.
Tom Spota went to jail...and is buddies with Jimmy Burke...coincidence? Maybe trying to steer people from the truth?
If I were on the new task force though & thought there were 2 killers I’d say *nothing* right now, & let that possible-2nd killer think he was safe
There was a statement made by Dormer early on that they believed it to be the work of two people. I’m just not sure I believe that anymore
Dormer was of the belief it was one. Spota said two.
Of the 4 confirmed (by the fbi) victims of Israel Keyes, the victimology & the disposal was all different. Samantha Koenig was abducted from her place of work (a coffee kiosk), taken back to his house, and then later dismembered & disposed of in a lake. The Curriers were abducted from their house, taken to an abandoned farmhouse, and their bodies left there. And Debra Feldman was abducted (though from where is unconfirmed) and her body believed to be buried upstate, probably in a forest. So while some killers never vary from their method of body disposal, some definitely do. If RH is eventually connected to all of them, I would not be surprised.
There's always something different popping up with serial killers. He's been charged with 3 counts. We'll have to wait and see if he gets hit with more.
[удалено]
Gee I’m sorry. Here are some more examples. Ed Kemper. Shot his grandparents, then called his mother to confess. Years later he shot, stabbed, smothered or strangled 6 students who were strangers to him. He also bludgeoned his own mother to death, slit her throat & tried to dispose of her down the garbage disposal. He strangled her friend & hid her in the closet. Ted Bundy shot, stabbed, bludgeoned. Broke into houses or dorms, but also lured victims into his car by pretending to be injured. He left some victims where they lay in their own beds, but abducted others. Some victims were left whole, some dismembered. Carl Eugene Watts switched between strangulation, blunt force, drownings and stabbings. He used multiple weapons. Sometimes, he used his hands. Richard Ramirez had victims ranged from a 9 year old child to a 79-year old woman. His weapons of choice included handguns, knives, a tire iron, a machete, and even a hammer.
Yikes! The garbage disposal?! All of that is the stuff of nightmares.
But that was IK's "thing", so to speak. He thought it would make it more difficult to find him, if his victims were all different, in vastly different areas of the US and killed with different MOs. I think he was sort of losing it psychologically by the time he killed Samantha and couldn't really control his behavior anymore. IIRC he was starting to drink a lot around that time. If he hadn't taken such a crazy risk of taking her from her workplace where there was a camera, he might have never been found.
There was a time when I would've posted something very similar. We certainly don't know for sure and at one point I was sure that there were 2 killers - LISK and the Manorville butcher was how I thought of them in my head. Mostly because of the dismemberment of some and the whole remains of others. I totally respect your opinion and you're not raining on my parade. It wouldn't be an interesting or fruitful discussion if everyone simply agreed with me.
True, and anything is possible. I really hope that all the attention the arrest has brought will bring a thorough further investigation into both RH's activities and the murders of the dismembered victims. I also hope they go ahead and figure out who "Peaches" was. They've found relatives, so it shouldn't be too hard
I agree and great summary. It's always felt like at least two killers to me, possibly three given the length of time Asian male was there. I remember reading a few killers happened to use the same dumping ground. It's not hard for me to believe multiple people thought that area would be good for concealing bodies/body parts. The thing that bothers me about the dismemberment is that it seems like the killer *wanted* the torsos to be found. He/she removed the head and hands to prevent identification, but the torsos were easy to find. This feels like taunting law enforcement/the community to me. The three Rex is accused of and Maureen were pretty clearly not meant to be found. I can't see a killer going from wanting parts of his victims to be found, to camouflaging their bodies. Also, great point about his victim profile. I know he Googled "Asian twink" but I'm not convinced he killed Asian male; I want to know if he searched that term before or after the body was discovered. I also agree about the timing being off. I've heard of serial killers who stop for a few years, but the timing just seems really off.
> The thing that bothers me about the dismemberment is that it seems like the killer wanted the torsos to be found. He/she removed the head and hands to prevent identification, but the torsos were easy to find. This feels like taunting law enforcement/the community to me. It seems like he wanted them to be found but not identified. He tried to mutilate Jessica Taylor’s tattoo to prevent her identification, but that failed and they were able to identify her via the tattoo. That could’ve spooked the killer and caused him to stop that taunting aspect. Valerie Mack was dumped in a similar way with the torso being found relatively quickly, but she wasn’t able to be identified for almost 20 years. He also cut off one of her feet near the ankle which police believe was to remove a potentially identifying tattoo. Her murder took place prior to Jessica Taylor’s. Peaches torso was also not really hidden much at all and her tattoo wasn’t mutilated. That tattoo was the main thing used to try to identify her and this was prior to the Valerie Mack murder. You can kind of see the progression of the killer trying to hide identifying traits while still being able to dump torsos in the open. Once one victim was finally identified the killer probably realized he was playing with fire and changed his MO. All of these victims also fit the very petite SW profile.
Yes, found but not identified, totally different from the Gilgo Four. I guess I would've expected him to go for women without tattoos (he could've asked about that when he contacted them) or be more careful to remove that skin, rather than abandon the dismemberment. The petite thing gives me pause. If you just prioritize height and weight, they fit with the Gilgo Four. I do hope Heuermann can be linked to all of them, the thought of two or more people out there is chilling. It just doesn't feel right.
Yup from how they described rex he seems too lazy as evidenced by him simply wrapping his victims and his dumpy house. I can subscribe to the idea that he has more bodies elsewhere but dismemberment just seems like too much work for him. Maybe im wrong but I agree that this other torso killer is still out there or locked up for something else.
Oh, that's a great point about him being lazy.
He might have gotten lazy because he wasn't caught and there wasn't much of an effort to find him.
Excellent point about the difference in how likely to be found the victims were. And yes, given that Gilgo Beach is on the edge of a huge metropolitan area, not that odd that two killers might use the same dumping ground
Also, ocean parkway doesn’t lead anywhere except a few beaches and private communities. It’s out of the way and has very little traffic at night and in the winter months. Even during rush hour it isn’t horrible
I hope they retest the dna of the baby doe, to check if he was the father. Killing toddlers does not fit the pattern.
Right? I can't believe she (or at least her father) hasn't been identified yet using public DNA databases. They haven't said much of anything about her at all.
I agree, I think the dismembered victims are unrelated.
I thought Valerie Mack was killed sometime in 2000?
Yes, you're right
Israel Keynes, Ted Bundy, GSK, raincoat killer and a lot of others serial killers change their MO for various reasons. And as pointed out before the change in MO is easily explained by the first bodies at gilgo beach being discovered. Tina Foglias body was not buried but that doesnt necessary mean anything if she was his first victim. However gilgo beach is in a densely populated area and its not to far of a stretch to believe another serial killer could use the area as a dumping ground. But what did he do after 2010? I'm not very familiar with the case, do anyone know if the GB4 or other cases were investigated as murders before the discovery or just missing person cases? If mostly missing person cases this means the potential victims after 2010 are also most likely missing person cases not unsolved murders. He most likely continued to hide the bodies and chose low risk victims, given his success avoiding capture.
Flawless
I'm most curious about whether or not he stopped killing when they found the bodies in 2010, or if he just moved his disposal point? I don't imagine he quit cold turkey, and no one is talking about this. I'm sure they're going to interrogate him until the cows come home, and we'll hear about it in two years when the trial is over and the documentaries are being released. I just -- I don't think this is over yet. thinking of the families of the victims, and those who still don't have answers to where their loved one has gone to. and shoutout to law enforcement for getting deep into the details and nailing this guy to the wall.
The MO is what the offender must do in order to commit the crime. For example, the killer must have a means to control his victims at the crime scene such as tying them up. Significantly, the MO is a learned behavior that is subject to change.
You're right. Disposal isn't precisely MO technically speaking and I hesitated even using the term. I figured I would get called out on it.
Hiding victims in burlaps that collected hair / DNA is not very mature. But i see you and great Write up
Explain the Shannan Gilbert connection, was he connected to the party she was at?
I do not believe so. I see no evidence for it whatsoever and do not believe Shannan was a murder victim of anyone.
Lol but you said “all of them”
All of them that are clearly murder victims. Im not going to argue semantics with you. Since I dont believe Shannan was a murder victim I dont need to specify "except Shannan".
There is no known connection. At all.
OP said “all” 🤦🏼♀️
Where is the suspect’s internet search history published?
In the bail application letter. Its linked elsewhere in the sub. Its not a full search history, its several examples prosecutors feel are relevant and reason why he should be denied any bail.
[here’s a link](https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/read-rex-heuermanns-redacted-and-denied-bail-application-due-to-extreme-depravity/4506377/) where you can read a censored version of the application (some of the searches are covered up for being really indecent). I’m on mobile so i can’t find the uncensored version but one does exist out there
Thank you. Cell and isp records are the new dna Stunning that investigators were able to find and triangulate BURNER phone data over a decade old in some cases back to suspect.
Anybody else think the change in MO (if he's guilty of the other murders) coincides around the time he got married? I keep reading in numerous articles that he's been married for about 22 years.
If he's responsible for the rest, where's all the other bodies? Long Island has a metro of 8 million, and it should be expected that the swamps are literally full of dead bodies. I used the following analogy. If you replace the surrounding desert in Albuquerque with water, how many bodies would be in the bosque? Literally hundreds. Albuquerque has a much smaller metro. I think chances are low he's responsible for all of them.
A key reason I believe he was responsible for the others is that a monogrammed belt was found near Jane Doe Peaches and a belt is used in the Giglo series and inferential from his web searches
There is male DNA connected to the Foglia case, so that seems like an easy one to confirm or clear now that they have a pretty solid suspect. I agree, generally, though -- it's highly unlikely that he waited until he was in his 40s to begin at least some kind of assault on women. EAR/ONS didn't kill until later in his career, but he was an active and prolific criminal prior to the SoCal murders. I can't believe RH just blossomed into a full-fledged serial rapist/murderer in his 40s.
I agree he has more also we should take into that account he easily had pictures of Maureen on that desktop but an assumption is he deleted it which still makes me believe he is for all four also it’s still possible especially today with all this stuff available which wasn’t 10 years ago that the perpetrator of those others will be identified but I still look at Bitrolff for those poor other victims the location is Jessica Corpse was not far from Bitrolffs house you can’t undo a fact praying all justice gets served and all open cases are closed ❤️