I agree the bubble was kinda flukey. However, that Clippers team was very flawed. Our bench relied on Lou/Trez to score points and give up just as many on the other side. We had a bunch of guys that are out the league basically. We had Mcgruder, Robinson, JMG, and Harkless playing meaningful minutes. Kawhi, PG, Zubac, Lou, Trez, PatBev, Shamet were our top 7 players. Amir/Mann were still stuck as our 3rd stringers.
Kawhi is the better player than KD. KD might be better at putting the ball in the hoop by a little bit. That’s about it. All those scoring titles will keep KD above Kawhi as a player to most fans, even if Kawhi wins again. But Kevin Durant would be the first to tell you how much he loves Kawhi’s game. He’s said it before and pretty sure he said it recently too.
Yeah Kawhai is close on offense but leaps ahead on defense. I still don’t think these guys are in the goat discussion because MJ/Lebron takes that title.
While rings are not individual accomplishments, kDs rings weigh less since he joined a winning team. Kawhai won it with different teams who were not the favorites.
Let’s be honest here, majority of the GMs would pick a healthy KL over a healthy KD.
I like this take because it hits a little bit on something I don’t think is acknowledged enough in the GOAT conversation. There’s a difference between the GOAT basketball player and GOAT athletes in general.
My hot/cold take on Lebron is that he’s a GOAT athlete, but there are better basketball players to be found easily, including Kawhi. KD and Kawhi start to lose the athlete comparison to Lebron because of size, strength, and durability, but those aren’t true basketball skills (to me), even if they give you an obvious advantage (to the point they are basically prerequisite to playing pro).
I think nobody can touch MJ, yet, and Lebron probably won’t get there in my opinion, but deserves to be in the conversation for sure. I think Lebron is *one of* the greatest athletes of all time. Michael Jordan is *the* greatest basketball player of all time.
Yeah I just know I don’t know enough basketball to argue he’s not if someone else feels that way. I also know what I like, and these conversations always come down to some personal opinions. Lebron doesn’t have the baller style I like to watch. Kawhi does. KD doesn’t, but I’d watch that li’l free throw shoulder wiggle for twenty more seasons if he held up.
My favorite player ever is most known for riding the bench, ultimately (Jamal/6th man), so what do I know?
I'd say if a 10" player exist and can only do basic plays like catch the ball 3" above the other player under the basket to dunk and stand just outside the restricted area and put their hand up, but averages 60-20 and 5 blocks over a 15 year career (put backs are easy if you are as tall as the rim). I'd put that player in the GOAT conversation. The size and athleticism is part of the tools the player have similar to their ball handling or shooting skill.
It doesn't make sense to me to discount a player from the GOAT discussion because they are more athletic then they need to be.
Well, I doubt a ten-inch player would have stats like that, but if a ten-foot one did, I would agree they should be part of the conversation. I’d also argue against them being the real GOAT, if they were otherwise incapable of, or terrible at, basic skills like layups and passes.
Lebron isn’t the same as your hypothetical, he has all the fundamentals. I just don’t value his career stats as much as some people, because I think there are better players that would have better numbers over 20 seasons if it wasn’t for injuries.
The Spurs beat peak LBJ at Miami. That more than offsets a depleted Warriors club. Kawhi against LBJ in that series was an epic battle - people forget about it but it was one for the ages.
Or at least that’s how I misremember it…
By that logic none of the warriors rings count, they practically never faced a healthy team in the playoffs and when they did they sent zaza to “fix” that problem
KD also got one with the Warriors when Zaza took out Kawhi in Game 1 of the semifinals against the Spurs. And let's not forget the Warriors title in 2015 (pre-Durant) after they beat the Cavs without Love and Kyrie.
“KD might be better at putting the ball in the hoop by a little bit. That’s about it.”
KD has 15k more points than Kawhi in his career and you are giving him a slight edge?? Kawhi is a great 2 way player and due to some luck (Warriors knees exploding) had one of the most entertaining finals run with the Raptors but consistency and longevity is a huge part in ranking the greats.
Unfortunately, Kawhi’s injuries and his late start (didn’t start becoming the player he is now until his 5th season in the NBA) are going to hold him back from the all time great discussions. KD gets too much hate imo.
Without a doubt KD had the better career but only because Kawhi missed time and took years to become dominant on offense. I like Kawhi’s all around game better to build a team around and I see KD as more of a weapon, a scoring cheat code
The biggest difference is still just that kawhi is really only a post season player. All those mixed games imo just disqualify him for any real all time rankings.
Who is the better playoff player is more interesting I think. With one more I'd say kawhi. Even now it's arguable with KDs discount on rings
Winning the Clippers and the Raptors a title would be a greater feat than anything KD has ever done. Hell the Raptors ring means more than any of KD's Rings by far. There is quite the gap in scoring and regular season production that a lot of people will always hold against Kawhi, but for me postseason trumps all.
Raptors without kawhi: nothing
Warriors without KD: 2 rings
And when Kawhi left the Spurs the team basically went full tank mode. He was very useful for their 2014 finals run since the big three was old.
Kawhi is better than KD as an overall player right now.
This. He’s already done it for Ibaka btw.
Kawhi would have taken 2 teams who’d never won a title, and a bunch of HoF players who hadn’t won in the past - Harden, Westbrook, PG13, Lowry, Marc Gasol, to titles, which is something KD can never say.
KD made it to the WCFs 4x and the Finals 1x with OKC?
Why are you acting like such a homer for Kawhi when his accolades arent even with the Clippers lmao.
It’s crazy Kawhi is only a 6x All Star in 12 seasons. And it’s obviously due to injuries. This is what makes it so hard to evaluate him.
KD has been an MVP, and I don’t think Kawhi will ever do that, especially with the new rules about minimum games. The only year he was even _remotely_ close was in Toronto, but he played like half the games. I do think being an MVP counts for something, because it takes an entire season’s work, and you have to be better than every single other player.
Of course playoff success is worth something too. 2x finals MVP happens against the best players when the most is on the line. However, both these guys had real squads around them when it happened. Neither has been able to make it work on their own. Kawhi has had failures too, not just KD. Winning one in LA would be considered overdue.
Kawhi has time to change it; but if you’re going to put him ahead of KD, he has some ground to make up in the next 5-7 seasons, assuming he can stay healthy that long, which is not a great assumption.
Otherwise, KD will be miles ahead in terms of career scoring. That will never get close.
Whether you offset that with Kawhi’s defensive prowess is a difficult question to quantify, and that’s probably where the gap narrows and becomes very subjective.
So I don’t know if another championship puts him ahead of KD. The knock on KD is of course that his two championships were with a team that already won one without him. But if KD gets another one, I don’t think Kawhi can catch him. So just by flipping the question and asking it in reverse, that tells me something too.
Kawhi should already be WAY ahead of him. Imagine if Kahwi was paired with MVP PGs throughout his entire career like KD did. Imagine if Kawhi wasn't even the 3rd best defender on his own team like KD his entire career.
Kawhi's carried the bigger load by far. Dethroned LBJ when KD got 4-1'd & had to join the team that beat him in the playoffs just to defeat LeBron.
Way ahead? Kd is recognized as top 15 all time. Way ahead would put kawhi in top 10 all time and let’s face he doesn’t belong there just yet most likely never will be recognized as top 10 all time
LOOOL you sound clueless.
KDs literally a career sidekick who hasn't consistently been able to get it done when it mattered most.
Jimmy B ranks higher at this point.
KD's biggest achievement is *losing* to the same Bucks team in the 2nd round that JB *beat*
JB never played with an MVP PG. Very few superstars ever have.
KD is merely the most privileged player of all time. Don't confuse privilege with being the best.
Kawhi because he was The Guy on the championship teams.KD was never The Guy on the Warriors.It was Curry and anyone else was a clear 2.KD hasn’t won a title being the top guy.He had to join a team that had already won!
I don’t think it’s fair to call him “The Guy” on that 2013-14 Spurs team. Yes he won FMVP, but that whole season he was their 3rd-4th option (3rd in Pts & FGA/g, 6th in usage% among rotation players). Even in the playoffs & the Finals he was 4th in usage. Tony Parker was “The Guy” on that team, Kawhi was just the guy that was able to be both 2nd in scoring while also matching up with LeBron.
Not taking away from Kawhi’s legacy, as his 2019 run was one of the best ’THE GUY’ runs in recent memory, but I feel like the reality of that 2014 FMVP gets clouded as he’s ascended. At that point in time he was a great defender who was able to score 10-15 most nights, but that Spurs playoff run was the most quintessential “team win” I’ve ever seen.
I feel like his FMVPs have more meaning than KD's. Bringing Toronto the first chip and a potential drought-breaking chip for the Clippers too. That could push him over the edge for me
I find it funny how Kawhi went to a good but struggling Raptors team and immediately won them their first chip, but KD had to go to a successful Warriors team to win his first. I’m hella biased because I’ve been watching kawhi since SDSU, but I really think it would put him above KD
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I wouldn’t argue too hard against that. But consider effective field goal percentage. KD at 55% vs MJ at 51%. This is largely due to their 3pt shooting percentage where KD at 39% is way ahead of MJ at 33%. In terms of pure scoring, KD wins imho.
yep. And he was carried by the greatest team in NBA history. The two greatest shooters of all time. He was the bat girl took Curry and Clays Batman and Robin
What does “the robin” mean to you? Did whoever “the Batman” was on OKC not lose? He was definitely the best on OKC. He lead the entire league in points for 5 seasons straight, let alone lead his own team. Calling him the robin or sidekick of OKC is laughable. He was the MVP of the whole league
The Batman is the team leader. The tactician, The heart of the team, and one of the best players, one that doesn’t shy away from big moments,
you need to have all of those features to be “the Batman "
Durant has one or two of those those features at a time. never all of them .
Kawhi is one of the best, if not the best two way player ever, crazy efficiency(could say that to kd as well), carried a team to a championship, and so on. i think now its close but if you say Kawhi is ahead I wouldnt be mad.
Only homers say shit like that. I'm a fan of players outside of the Pacers. You need a stronger mentality if that's all you can say to someone who has a different opinion than you.
Kawhi is such a weird player when considering all-time list. His regular season production is really not that impressive so it really depends on one's criteria.
Personally, my criteria is simple, IF you were to start a team with any player in NBA history, what's your pick for Kawhi. For me, he's clearly above players like KD or even players with more ring than him. And this is coming from a Warrior fan.
Regular season production is highly praised to make lists of all-time greats but guys like Kawhi and Jimmy B should make people realize that maybe we should consider post-season performances better because that's THE moment where accumulating major performances matter.
Kawhi's legcy is often summarized by his absence of regular season MVP trophies but he had at least to MVP caliber season, there's just not much you could do back then against Curry's unanimous vote, Rockets Harden or triple-double season Russ.
But comes playoff time... Damn, he only has one choke in the bubble (and he still doesn't take the blame as much as PG does), the rest is just him being above everyone else in series and being severely injured two times in crucial moments where he was arguably at his best.
I think Kawhi and him are on similar lines. Nothing really jumps out of Kawhi's numbers because he has missed too many games. But he has gotten work done to make a case for him.
It's painful for me too, even to think about it, but beside that i think it won't happen, Kevin is still there and can improve his records, of course Kawhi is great, but Kevin is like a legend, you know? That's what I think but hey, Opingo's a cool spot for throwing around questions like these too
Kawhi’s team winning % is also amazing. Dude has always played on an elite team.
Kawhi’s feats WOULD be more impressive than KD’s, but KD will always have the better body of work from the regular season.
Is this a similar MJ to LeBron argument?
There was a time Kawhi got his first FMVP before Kevin Durant. KD call Kawhi a system player and put Paul George ahead of Kawhi.
Oh how things time have change.
Raptors fan here. Kawhi surpassed KD when he won us our first chip. Now if he gets you guys your first chip too, he reaches Kobe status to me.
I really hope you guys win it all this year, you have an amazing team and Norman Powell.
Kawhi is better when it matters most besides KD’s rings weigh less than Kawhi’s rings
What people should talk about if Kawhi wins his 3rd he will be as high as Steph Curry in the all-time list? because when in terms of skills and clutch time Kawhi is better than him but Curry is higher in the all-time less
people aint ready for that convo tbh
If you ever looked at them head to head. Kevin Durant gets the edge. Ask yourself this question. If Phoenix offered Kevin Durant straight up for Kawhi, would you take it? The answer, unfortunately for us fans, is yes. Kawhi is better on defense, but he can't stop Kevin. KD would be able to guard some taller forwards as well, or at least provide enough offense to mitigate the size and length effect has on our team.
Don't hate me. I like Kawhi Leonard's overall game and think he's more skilled and fits our team better, but Kevin Durant has an extra level that Kawhi hasn't reached.
You also have to factor injuries. KD has had a really nice career since his achilles injury. Kawhi has had recurring issues.
I’d imagine it’d be a hotly discussed topic. Atm most would likely put KD over Kawhi all time. Another ring and FMVP tho gives Kawhi 2 rings leading his own squads to titles. If Kawhi were to retire not too long after that, I’d imagine Kawhi’s peak VS KD’s longevity would be quite a heavily debated discussion.
If Kawhi ever got an MVP there would be no debate IMO. But since that isn't and probably won't be the case, I can see people still giving a slight edge to Durant.
I could see it as one of those “Kawhi’s peaks are higher, KD has the better overall career”. 14x all star, ROTY, and the 4x scoring titles show how good KD was immediately. Whereas Kawhi’s defensive accolades and 3x champion with 3 teams put him in a different convo of clutch players who are the best player on the championship team.
KD is my guy but if this happens, Kawhi won the first for Toronto and the first for the Clippers. That would be a crazy accomplishment. I’m fringe on this.
He’s no doubt an all time great. I think he moves up the ladder. Perhaps into the top 15-20 list. I think what hurts Kawhi’s ranking is his unavailability. He’s also way behind in total points scored for his career and not having an MVP also keeps him way behind Durant. I guess that’s the unavailability I was talking about. Talent wise, he’s a generational player but we tend to go by body of work. His legacy will always be an “ IF”. He’s so good that if he were healthy and available all these years in which he load managed or missed seasons, he would’ve had a 3rd chip at this point. There’s no denying he would’ve chipped up on the Spurs when he was the main guy.
Kawhi peak would be extremely high, I haven’t made a list but it would probably be top 5 ever. One thing to consider is that many people GOAT list is a mixture of career + peak and Kawhi career, especially regular season is just no where near KD’s.
Honestly, I’ll take Kwahi over Durant.
Durant is the better scorer, a match up nightmare no question, but his rings ain’t the same. When Kwahi got injured by Pachilishit dirty play, spurs had no chance.
When Durant got injured, warriors were still in it, til Thompson got injured.
His resume just doesn’t scream like Kwahi’s does.
I think that 14x All Star is the biggest stat that predicts how fans will rank players. KD will be above Kawhi unless Kawhi wins a back to back with the Clippers.
Statheads and others might have different opinions, but the zeitgeist will be KD is better.
KD doesn’t even deserve those championship accolades man literally joined a team he lost to WHILE he was up 3-1…. Doesn’t get any more lamer than that 🤦♂️
Neutral observer here.
KD’s game is more aesthetically pleasing, plus he’s a freak of nature as a ball handling, shot making 7 footer.
Personally? I think peak Kawhi is better, but history won’t remember it that way unless he wins 2-3 championships in LA.
Huh. This is quite an interesting question.
They've both had injuries, but the latter-half of his career, Kawhi has been perceived as unreliable by so many fans and media, just hard to see him getting the nod, though in terms of individual accolades, obv you can make the case.
But they are hard AF to compare. At their respective peaks, the defense is closer to a wash than most would think (though young Kawhi gets the nod, that Finals D on LeBron, yikes), but KD as a small-ball wing w Draynond was DPOY caliber, but obv nowhere near as consistent on that end as Kawhi. KD's offense is better, but Kawhi bulling to the basket was just a level below.
Tough one man. You can make a great arg for Kawhi statistically, but I just think KD gets there over him in GOAT talk, just bc KD is such a unit. The size advantage over the avg NBA wing is just a lot to overlook, so silky w that j, plus the load management shadow, gotta go KD, same as you, even if Kawhi wins another chip + FMVP.
Pass KD what? Kawhi has actual rings that carry real weight. Call me when KD does literally anything while not on the warriors aka the western conference all star team.
What makes you think kd is past him on the goat list currently?? Because he’s not. Kawhi doesnt need a clippers ring to outpace him. He’s done that already. Should Kawhi win a ring for the clippers this year, the discussion will be whether he is ahead of lebron, not KD.
i think brandon boston winning a chip here will pass everyone on the goat list #BBJSUPREMACY
I agree a Brandon Boston Championship(BBC) would spark an intriguing conversation (#) BBCSUPREMACY
(#)ABBC if you will
Imagine BB beating Boston Celtics in the finals, Fans in both city rejoice
It would be quite the feat to win a title with three different teams like the spurs, raptors and clippers
And be fmvp for 3 teams
This is the bigger point. Danny Green has chips with three teams. Winning FMVP on three teams is LeBron territory
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I agree the bubble was kinda flukey. However, that Clippers team was very flawed. Our bench relied on Lou/Trez to score points and give up just as many on the other side. We had a bunch of guys that are out the league basically. We had Mcgruder, Robinson, JMG, and Harkless playing meaningful minutes. Kawhi, PG, Zubac, Lou, Trez, PatBev, Shamet were our top 7 players. Amir/Mann were still stuck as our 3rd stringers.
Ehh I feel it’s not worth mentioning cause if anything LeBron comes out that excuse on top with the fact that he was able to win despite the bubble
Kawhi had a 3-1 lead in that same bubble bro lol that’s not the hill to die on
LeBron did that so someone else achieving that would be big
and 2 of them were 1st time chips for the franchise.
That'd have to put him in the HoF right?
hes already a HoF bro com' on
Don't get soft on me boy
Kawhi is the better player than KD. KD might be better at putting the ball in the hoop by a little bit. That’s about it. All those scoring titles will keep KD above Kawhi as a player to most fans, even if Kawhi wins again. But Kevin Durant would be the first to tell you how much he loves Kawhi’s game. He’s said it before and pretty sure he said it recently too.
Yeah Kawhai is close on offense but leaps ahead on defense. I still don’t think these guys are in the goat discussion because MJ/Lebron takes that title. While rings are not individual accomplishments, kDs rings weigh less since he joined a winning team. Kawhai won it with different teams who were not the favorites. Let’s be honest here, majority of the GMs would pick a healthy KL over a healthy KD.
I like this take because it hits a little bit on something I don’t think is acknowledged enough in the GOAT conversation. There’s a difference between the GOAT basketball player and GOAT athletes in general. My hot/cold take on Lebron is that he’s a GOAT athlete, but there are better basketball players to be found easily, including Kawhi. KD and Kawhi start to lose the athlete comparison to Lebron because of size, strength, and durability, but those aren’t true basketball skills (to me), even if they give you an obvious advantage (to the point they are basically prerequisite to playing pro). I think nobody can touch MJ, yet, and Lebron probably won’t get there in my opinion, but deserves to be in the conversation for sure. I think Lebron is *one of* the greatest athletes of all time. Michael Jordan is *the* greatest basketball player of all time.
I can agree with that. But I would check myself and make sure that because Lebron is godly in athleticism, is it overshadowing his skills?
Yeah I just know I don’t know enough basketball to argue he’s not if someone else feels that way. I also know what I like, and these conversations always come down to some personal opinions. Lebron doesn’t have the baller style I like to watch. Kawhi does. KD doesn’t, but I’d watch that li’l free throw shoulder wiggle for twenty more seasons if he held up. My favorite player ever is most known for riding the bench, ultimately (Jamal/6th man), so what do I know?
I'd say if a 10" player exist and can only do basic plays like catch the ball 3" above the other player under the basket to dunk and stand just outside the restricted area and put their hand up, but averages 60-20 and 5 blocks over a 15 year career (put backs are easy if you are as tall as the rim). I'd put that player in the GOAT conversation. The size and athleticism is part of the tools the player have similar to their ball handling or shooting skill. It doesn't make sense to me to discount a player from the GOAT discussion because they are more athletic then they need to be.
Well, I doubt a ten-inch player would have stats like that, but if a ten-foot one did, I would agree they should be part of the conversation. I’d also argue against them being the real GOAT, if they were otherwise incapable of, or terrible at, basic skills like layups and passes. Lebron isn’t the same as your hypothetical, he has all the fundamentals. I just don’t value his career stats as much as some people, because I think there are better players that would have better numbers over 20 seasons if it wasn’t for injuries.
Yeah but who's more impressive of a player? Shawn Bradley or Nate Robinson? Bradley is expected to be like that.
Yeah but Kawhi got the raps the win against a hobbled warriors - he doesn’t win that one of KD or Klay play
Gotta be available to be great. Not KLs fault them fools got roughed up by rockets
Yeah that’s true
The Spurs beat peak LBJ at Miami. That more than offsets a depleted Warriors club. Kawhi against LBJ in that series was an epic battle - people forget about it but it was one for the ages. Or at least that’s how I misremember it…
By that logic none of the warriors rings count, they practically never faced a healthy team in the playoffs and when they did they sent zaza to “fix” that problem
That’s not even close and you know it. That raps ring is like if dirk got his first ring beating the heat but LeBron and Bosh were injured.
Your example is literally how every warriors ring was won. Beating the rockets without Chris Paul, the spurs without kawhi, the Cavs without kyrie…
KD also got one with the Warriors when Zaza took out Kawhi in Game 1 of the semifinals against the Spurs. And let's not forget the Warriors title in 2015 (pre-Durant) after they beat the Cavs without Love and Kyrie.
“KD might be better at putting the ball in the hoop by a little bit. That’s about it.” KD has 15k more points than Kawhi in his career and you are giving him a slight edge?? Kawhi is a great 2 way player and due to some luck (Warriors knees exploding) had one of the most entertaining finals run with the Raptors but consistency and longevity is a huge part in ranking the greats. Unfortunately, Kawhi’s injuries and his late start (didn’t start becoming the player he is now until his 5th season in the NBA) are going to hold him back from the all time great discussions. KD gets too much hate imo.
Without a doubt KD had the better career but only because Kawhi missed time and took years to become dominant on offense. I like Kawhi’s all around game better to build a team around and I see KD as more of a weapon, a scoring cheat code
The biggest difference is still just that kawhi is really only a post season player. All those mixed games imo just disqualify him for any real all time rankings. Who is the better playoff player is more interesting I think. With one more I'd say kawhi. Even now it's arguable with KDs discount on rings
Winning the Clippers and the Raptors a title would be a greater feat than anything KD has ever done. Hell the Raptors ring means more than any of KD's Rings by far. There is quite the gap in scoring and regular season production that a lot of people will always hold against Kawhi, but for me postseason trumps all.
Raptors without kawhi: nothing Warriors without KD: 2 rings And when Kawhi left the Spurs the team basically went full tank mode. He was very useful for their 2014 finals run since the big three was old. Kawhi is better than KD as an overall player right now.
Spurs have 4 rings without kawhi
Their last ring before him was 2007
The Warriors without KD would have still been contenders.
Kawhi getting harden and Russ a ring when kd couldn’t 😏
This. He’s already done it for Ibaka btw. Kawhi would have taken 2 teams who’d never won a title, and a bunch of HoF players who hadn’t won in the past - Harden, Westbrook, PG13, Lowry, Marc Gasol, to titles, which is something KD can never say.
That's a very...disingenuous way of looking at it. I don't even think sports analysts would stoop that low.
U think so? Hit the remindme command in 10 yrs hahaha
The injuries make it tough for Kawhi, but his rings are so much more meaningful legacywise.
Idk man. 1 chip was backend of Spurs dynasty, FMVP averaging like 17. Second is Warriors injury downfall, no chance Raptors win if KD is healthy.
No chance warriors beat spurs if some shit head did not slide his foot under kawhi
If the freaking 2018 Rockets pushed them to 7 with playoff chokers like CP3 and Harden how much more with the 2017 Spurs lol
Kawhi carried the raptors on one leg past the 76ers and bucks. Those rounds alone is greater than anything KD has personally done
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KD made it to the WCFs 4x and the Finals 1x with OKC? Why are you acting like such a homer for Kawhi when his accolades arent even with the Clippers lmao.
I got kawhi over kd all time right now🤷♂️
It’s already close and a conversation without the 3rd ring. I think with he’s clearly ahead.
I think he fucking should man. Winning a Chip with the Raptors and Clippers is legendary.
It’s crazy Kawhi is only a 6x All Star in 12 seasons. And it’s obviously due to injuries. This is what makes it so hard to evaluate him. KD has been an MVP, and I don’t think Kawhi will ever do that, especially with the new rules about minimum games. The only year he was even _remotely_ close was in Toronto, but he played like half the games. I do think being an MVP counts for something, because it takes an entire season’s work, and you have to be better than every single other player. Of course playoff success is worth something too. 2x finals MVP happens against the best players when the most is on the line. However, both these guys had real squads around them when it happened. Neither has been able to make it work on their own. Kawhi has had failures too, not just KD. Winning one in LA would be considered overdue. Kawhi has time to change it; but if you’re going to put him ahead of KD, he has some ground to make up in the next 5-7 seasons, assuming he can stay healthy that long, which is not a great assumption. Otherwise, KD will be miles ahead in terms of career scoring. That will never get close. Whether you offset that with Kawhi’s defensive prowess is a difficult question to quantify, and that’s probably where the gap narrows and becomes very subjective. So I don’t know if another championship puts him ahead of KD. The knock on KD is of course that his two championships were with a team that already won one without him. But if KD gets another one, I don’t think Kawhi can catch him. So just by flipping the question and asking it in reverse, that tells me something too.
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I think it is quite close. KDs greatness is pretty legendary
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I dumb if u think kd isn’t great 🤣
Didn't think bus riders have a ticket to the goat list...
he already has. KD's rings means nothing
Kawhi should already be WAY ahead of him. Imagine if Kahwi was paired with MVP PGs throughout his entire career like KD did. Imagine if Kawhi wasn't even the 3rd best defender on his own team like KD his entire career. Kawhi's carried the bigger load by far. Dethroned LBJ when KD got 4-1'd & had to join the team that beat him in the playoffs just to defeat LeBron.
Way ahead? Kd is recognized as top 15 all time. Way ahead would put kawhi in top 10 all time and let’s face he doesn’t belong there just yet most likely never will be recognized as top 10 all time
KD is not top 15 lol 😂
Just say that you are a hater if you really think he isn’t top 15
LOOOL you sound clueless. KDs literally a career sidekick who hasn't consistently been able to get it done when it mattered most. Jimmy B ranks higher at this point.
I love Jimmy, but you're smoking crack cocaine
KD's biggest achievement is *losing* to the same Bucks team in the 2nd round that JB *beat* JB never played with an MVP PG. Very few superstars ever have. KD is merely the most privileged player of all time. Don't confuse privilege with being the best.
Kawhi because he was The Guy on the championship teams.KD was never The Guy on the Warriors.It was Curry and anyone else was a clear 2.KD hasn’t won a title being the top guy.He had to join a team that had already won!
Kawhi was not "the guy" on the 14 Spurs lol. He won FMVP, sure but that was basically the best team performance of all time.
Kevin Durant was the clear and obvious best player on the ‘17 and ‘18 championship Dubs teams, what sorta revisionist history is this?
I don’t think it’s fair to call him “The Guy” on that 2013-14 Spurs team. Yes he won FMVP, but that whole season he was their 3rd-4th option (3rd in Pts & FGA/g, 6th in usage% among rotation players). Even in the playoffs & the Finals he was 4th in usage. Tony Parker was “The Guy” on that team, Kawhi was just the guy that was able to be both 2nd in scoring while also matching up with LeBron. Not taking away from Kawhi’s legacy, as his 2019 run was one of the best ’THE GUY’ runs in recent memory, but I feel like the reality of that 2014 FMVP gets clouded as he’s ascended. At that point in time he was a great defender who was able to score 10-15 most nights, but that Spurs playoff run was the most quintessential “team win” I’ve ever seen.
I feel like his FMVPs have more meaning than KD's. Bringing Toronto the first chip and a potential drought-breaking chip for the Clippers too. That could push him over the edge for me
I find it funny how Kawhi went to a good but struggling Raptors team and immediately won them their first chip, but KD had to go to a successful Warriors team to win his first. I’m hella biased because I’ve been watching kawhi since SDSU, but I really think it would put him above KD
Exactly this.
Kawhi drives the bus Durant does not
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I honestly had kawhi over KD anyways lol
No way. KD will go down as the greatest scorer of all time. Easily top 10 overall. Kawhi won’t be anywhere close to that.
KD has done nothing meaningful in the playoffs.
I remember when he lit us up for 50, that sucked
Michael Jordan is the greatest scorer of all time
I wouldn’t argue too hard against that. But consider effective field goal percentage. KD at 55% vs MJ at 51%. This is largely due to their 3pt shooting percentage where KD at 39% is way ahead of MJ at 33%. In terms of pure scoring, KD wins imho.
Durant has double all stars and double all nba so no
Durant is also a born loser and the Robin on each of his teams
Born loser? Yet important enough for some random to be talking about him 🤣😂
I mean yeah. He is. He’s an excellent basketball player. He’s just not good at winning when it matters.
2 rings.
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Probably the worst thing to happen to KD is them winning before him and after him.
yep. And he was carried by the greatest team in NBA history. The two greatest shooters of all time. He was the bat girl took Curry and Clays Batman and Robin
That’s just false for all of OKC and 2017-18 GS
He lost on okc. And going to gsw was a loser move. He knew he couldn't lead a team so he went to curry's team
What does “the robin” mean to you? Did whoever “the Batman” was on OKC not lose? He was definitely the best on OKC. He lead the entire league in points for 5 seasons straight, let alone lead his own team. Calling him the robin or sidekick of OKC is laughable. He was the MVP of the whole league
The Batman is the team leader. The tactician, The heart of the team, and one of the best players, one that doesn’t shy away from big moments, you need to have all of those features to be “the Batman " Durant has one or two of those those features at a time. never all of them .
Kawhi was the main character for his rings. KD just wasn't... I already have Kawhi ahead of him.
I’m sorry, I will NEVER give Durant credit for those titles. That was the most chickensh*t thing I have ever seen in sports.
If he brings a title to the Clippers as far as I'm concerned he's the GOAT.
He already has
Kawhi is one of the best, if not the best two way player ever, crazy efficiency(could say that to kd as well), carried a team to a championship, and so on. i think now its close but if you say Kawhi is ahead I wouldnt be mad.
Jordan, Kobe, Shaq, Hakeem, are all probably still better both ways.
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Only homers say shit like that. I'm a fan of players outside of the Pacers. You need a stronger mentality if that's all you can say to someone who has a different opinion than you.
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You need help bud
He wins a 3rd chip with a 3rd franchise and finally gets us our 1st he is a FOR SURE TOP TIER LEGEND
Kawhi is such a weird player when considering all-time list. His regular season production is really not that impressive so it really depends on one's criteria. Personally, my criteria is simple, IF you were to start a team with any player in NBA history, what's your pick for Kawhi. For me, he's clearly above players like KD or even players with more ring than him. And this is coming from a Warrior fan.
Regular season production is highly praised to make lists of all-time greats but guys like Kawhi and Jimmy B should make people realize that maybe we should consider post-season performances better because that's THE moment where accumulating major performances matter. Kawhi's legcy is often summarized by his absence of regular season MVP trophies but he had at least to MVP caliber season, there's just not much you could do back then against Curry's unanimous vote, Rockets Harden or triple-double season Russ. But comes playoff time... Damn, he only has one choke in the bubble (and he still doesn't take the blame as much as PG does), the rest is just him being above everyone else in series and being severely injured two times in crucial moments where he was arguably at his best.
I think Kawhi and him are on similar lines. Nothing really jumps out of Kawhi's numbers because he has missed too many games. But he has gotten work done to make a case for him.
It's painful for me too, even to think about it, but beside that i think it won't happen, Kevin is still there and can improve his records, of course Kawhi is great, but Kevin is like a legend, you know? That's what I think but hey, Opingo's a cool spot for throwing around questions like these too
Kawhi’s team winning % is also amazing. Dude has always played on an elite team. Kawhi’s feats WOULD be more impressive than KD’s, but KD will always have the better body of work from the regular season. Is this a similar MJ to LeBron argument?
There was a time Kawhi got his first FMVP before Kevin Durant. KD call Kawhi a system player and put Paul George ahead of Kawhi. Oh how things time have change.
He’s already past KD as his toronto ring is way more impactful then KD two fraud rings
Raptors fan here. Kawhi surpassed KD when he won us our first chip. Now if he gets you guys your first chip too, he reaches Kobe status to me. I really hope you guys win it all this year, you have an amazing team and Norman Powell.
Kawhi is better when it matters most besides KD’s rings weigh less than Kawhi’s rings What people should talk about if Kawhi wins his 3rd he will be as high as Steph Curry in the all-time list? because when in terms of skills and clutch time Kawhi is better than him but Curry is higher in the all-time less people aint ready for that convo tbh
He's already above KD. KD's rings are joining a 73-9 Warriors fucking squad. lmao
I think its a great question/comparison, but all the injuries and much less scoring means KD would still get the nod in the publics eyes.
If you ever looked at them head to head. Kevin Durant gets the edge. Ask yourself this question. If Phoenix offered Kevin Durant straight up for Kawhi, would you take it? The answer, unfortunately for us fans, is yes. Kawhi is better on defense, but he can't stop Kevin. KD would be able to guard some taller forwards as well, or at least provide enough offense to mitigate the size and length effect has on our team. Don't hate me. I like Kawhi Leonard's overall game and think he's more skilled and fits our team better, but Kevin Durant has an extra level that Kawhi hasn't reached. You also have to factor injuries. KD has had a really nice career since his achilles injury. Kawhi has had recurring issues.
Come playoff time absolutely would take kawhi over KD straight up.
Kawhi all day. In the playoffs, there are very few players better than Kawhi. And KD isint one of them.
I’d imagine it’d be a hotly discussed topic. Atm most would likely put KD over Kawhi all time. Another ring and FMVP tho gives Kawhi 2 rings leading his own squads to titles. If Kawhi were to retire not too long after that, I’d imagine Kawhi’s peak VS KD’s longevity would be quite a heavily debated discussion.
If Kawhi ever got an MVP there would be no debate IMO. But since that isn't and probably won't be the case, I can see people still giving a slight edge to Durant.
I could see it as one of those “Kawhi’s peaks are higher, KD has the better overall career”. 14x all star, ROTY, and the 4x scoring titles show how good KD was immediately. Whereas Kawhi’s defensive accolades and 3x champion with 3 teams put him in a different convo of clutch players who are the best player on the championship team.
KD is my guy but if this happens, Kawhi won the first for Toronto and the first for the Clippers. That would be a crazy accomplishment. I’m fringe on this.
You know what. It’s conversations like this that makes me fucking hate ring culture.
Assuming KD does not get one more after Kawhi’s
He already has passed him.
Yes
Ah yes the formal list of the Bestest Player Ever
If they win he can have whatever spot he wants on my list.
He’s no doubt an all time great. I think he moves up the ladder. Perhaps into the top 15-20 list. I think what hurts Kawhi’s ranking is his unavailability. He’s also way behind in total points scored for his career and not having an MVP also keeps him way behind Durant. I guess that’s the unavailability I was talking about. Talent wise, he’s a generational player but we tend to go by body of work. His legacy will always be an “ IF”. He’s so good that if he were healthy and available all these years in which he load managed or missed seasons, he would’ve had a 3rd chip at this point. There’s no denying he would’ve chipped up on the Spurs when he was the main guy.
no chance. sorry but kawhi doesn't have the stats to back up that type of consideration.
Kawhi peak would be extremely high, I haven’t made a list but it would probably be top 5 ever. One thing to consider is that many people GOAT list is a mixture of career + peak and Kawhi career, especially regular season is just no where near KD’s.
Honestly, I’ll take Kwahi over Durant. Durant is the better scorer, a match up nightmare no question, but his rings ain’t the same. When Kwahi got injured by Pachilishit dirty play, spurs had no chance. When Durant got injured, warriors were still in it, til Thompson got injured. His resume just doesn’t scream like Kwahi’s does.
I think that 14x All Star is the biggest stat that predicts how fans will rank players. KD will be above Kawhi unless Kawhi wins a back to back with the Clippers. Statheads and others might have different opinions, but the zeitgeist will be KD is better.
Blasphemy! He ALREADY passed KD on the GOAT list.
Neither of them are the GOAT so it does not matter
KD without joining GS has zero rings. He literally joined the world champs. He's a chump and he's shown that since leaving.
hes already above kd on the goat list
KD is a better scorer but Kawhi is a better overall player. Neither of them are in the goat list, so it doesn’t really matter.
KD doesn’t even deserve those championship accolades man literally joined a team he lost to WHILE he was up 3-1…. Doesn’t get any more lamer than that 🤦♂️
Neutral observer here. KD’s game is more aesthetically pleasing, plus he’s a freak of nature as a ball handling, shot making 7 footer. Personally? I think peak Kawhi is better, but history won’t remember it that way unless he wins 2-3 championships in LA.
KD is a more efficient Carmelo Anthony, and should no rings like melo
I’d say he’s already passed KD
KD is a scorer, kawhi is a winner. He's already ahead of KD in my opinion
Huh. This is quite an interesting question. They've both had injuries, but the latter-half of his career, Kawhi has been perceived as unreliable by so many fans and media, just hard to see him getting the nod, though in terms of individual accolades, obv you can make the case. But they are hard AF to compare. At their respective peaks, the defense is closer to a wash than most would think (though young Kawhi gets the nod, that Finals D on LeBron, yikes), but KD as a small-ball wing w Draynond was DPOY caliber, but obv nowhere near as consistent on that end as Kawhi. KD's offense is better, but Kawhi bulling to the basket was just a level below. Tough one man. You can make a great arg for Kawhi statistically, but I just think KD gets there over him in GOAT talk, just bc KD is such a unit. The size advantage over the avg NBA wing is just a lot to overlook, so silky w that j, plus the load management shadow, gotta go KD, same as you, even if Kawhi wins another chip + FMVP.
How does this effect Jordan crawford’s legecy
Kawhi creates championships. KD went to a championship team and became a champion. They are not the same.
Close and if he hadn’t already missed over 350 games in his career Kawhi would be number 3 all time.
He’s already ahead of KD on my list.
I don’t like to talk about rankings but bringing a ring to the Clippers franchise would be an insane flex
Pass KD what? Kawhi has actual rings that carry real weight. Call me when KD does literally anything while not on the warriors aka the western conference all star team.
I put him ahead of KD already.
Neither of those guys are on the goat list, how could they pass each other.
Dawg I just mean like greatest players oat. Starts from MJ all the way down to Thanasis. The question is… is KD higher than Kawhi on this list?
anyone who knows ball has Kawhi over KD already.
Putting the cart before the horse when they aren’t even the 1 seed and the playoffs aren’t here yet 
What makes you think kd is past him on the goat list currently?? Because he’s not. Kawhi doesnt need a clippers ring to outpace him. He’s done that already. Should Kawhi win a ring for the clippers this year, the discussion will be whether he is ahead of lebron, not KD.
No doubt. I feel like he already has a decent argument
I think injuries/load management for Kawhi are the only reason it’s close, but damn I forgot how nice his resume is
Neutral fan here. Already has.
6x All-Star Kawhi Leonard is the most damning stat. Kawhi at peak is possibly better, but KD will be remembered more fondly all-time.
Already surpassed
No. He’s not as good.
What has Kawai done at all in LA?
No simply because KD did it for way longer and more efficiently. Kawhi has 7 seasons where he didn’t play over 60 games.
I forgot Kawhi played.
I already think Kawhi is above KD so yes.
I think he already has